The Rod & Reel BALANCE Thread 2024
ResoKP reply :
Often overlooked, let's see some of your favourite spinning and baitcasting combos and how they balance.
Post up some pictures of their balancing points.
Megabass Destroyer FMJ & Daiwa morethan PE 1000XHL
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, ResoKP said:Often overlooked, let's see some of your favourite spinning and baitcasting combos and how they balance.
Post up some pictures of their balancing points.
Megabass Destroyer FMJ & Daiwa morethan PE 1000XHL
Nice setup.
But to be fair, you need to back off the shot and display the entire length of the rig.
Otherwise . . . .
A-Jay
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
Often overlooked? Are you trolling us? Lol
ResoKP reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 8:58 AM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:Often overlooked? Are you trolling us? Lol
Well maybe it was just me and I did overlook if I'm being honest. I had planned on getting one reel but came out with another after trying the combo out in the store. I don't get to handle every product out there and I was hoping a thread like this would help regular guys like me have a better idea of how different rod & reels work together. When I get a chance, I will try to take more pictures of my other combos. Maybe it's completely useless info to others but something like this would help me with my purchases in the future.
WRangler506 reply :
After discussing this a few weeks back, I went back through my rods, and how I hold them. I also measured quite a few to get the distance from the trigger to the balance point on some dobyns fury, champions, avid x, aetos, and more. I was a bit surprised, but it translated well into what I'm feeling in the rod when fishing. Just an example, my 705cb was 7 inches, my 7mf avid x was 11.5 inches.
Spinning rods would be a little less scientific just due to the many different holds people use.
A-Jay reply :
Definitely not useless info.
It's just that the sheer number of possible combinations of rod & reels would make the actual construction of even a semi-complete library of this info, a seriously daunting, if not impossible task.
A-Jay
jbrew73 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:21 AM, WRangler506 said:After discussing this a few weeks back, I went back through my rods, and how I hold them. I also measured quite a few to get the distance from the trigger to the balance point on some dobyns fury, champions, avid x, aetos, and more. I was a bit surprised, but it translated well into what I'm feeling in the rod when fishing. Just an example, my 705cb was 7 inches, my 7mf avid x was 11.5 inches.
Spinning rods would be a little less scientific just due to the many different holds people use.
This was without a reel?
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:17 AM, ResoKP said:Well maybe it was just me and I did overlook if I'm being honest. I had planned on getting one reel but came out with another after trying the combo out in the store. I don't get to handle every product out there and I was hoping a thread like this would help regular guys like me have a better idea of how different rod & reels work together. When I get a chance, I will try to take more pictures of my other combos. Maybe it's completely useless info to others but something like this would help me with my purchases in the future.
Just having some fun with you. “Balance “ posts are one of the most common but always elisit responses.
WRB reply :
The only balance that matters is how the combo feels in your hands and how it fishes the way you fish.
Your photo would OK they I hold rods and reels but without a small foregrip the knurled reel seat ring wouldn't feel good to me.
Each to his or her own madness.
Nice looking combo
Tom
BaitFinesse reply :
I just want to see more that Morethan and FMJ. What's this thread about?
ResoKP reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:23 AM, A-Jay said:Definitely not useless info.
It's just that the sheer number of possible combinations of rod & reels would make the actual construction of even a semi-complete library of this info, a seriously daunting, if not impossible task.
A-Jay
Yeah fair point. But if someone posted Expride A 7'2" H with Curado DC and I wanted a Bantam MGL for that rod, I could still safely assume they will have about the same balance due to the two reels weighing the same. Or maybe I'm thinking this all wrong...
jbsoonerfan reply :
I guess I'm confused why it matters. The reel is going to make the difference. Why do you care where the rod balances? Been fishing for 25+ years and never thought to see where my rod balanced.
Scott F reply :
^^^^^ This ^^^^
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:17 AM, jbsoonerfan said:I guess I'm confused why it matters. The reel is going to make the difference. Why do you care where the rod balances? Been fishing for 25+ years and never thought to see where my rod balanced.
I'm with you, mostly.
Back in the day, gear weighted a ton and balance was never a concern.
In fact, when the first graphite sticks were snapping all over the place because manufacturers were set on making them light, I went the other way and avoided them - I wanted Heft. Seemed to last longer.
Now that they've made some light & reasonably strong blanks, the next 'important' concern was the balance.
I can see where some balance in certain presentations is somewhat desirable, but the concept that I can't cast accurately, detect strikes, set the hook or fish all day because my rod & reel isn't 'balanced' is IMO a Crock.
If I can't fish with a rig that weighs less than a pound all day, because it's too heavy, I need to give up the sport & take up knitting. I hear that stuff is pretty light.
Off the soapbox now.
A-Jay
MN Fisher reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:39 AM, WRB said:The only balance that matters is how the combo feels in your hands and how it fishes the way you fish.
Your photo would OK they I hold rods and reels but without a small foregrip the knurled reel seat ring wouldn't feel good to me.
Each to his or her own madness.
Nice looking combo
Tom
I know that what I like as a balance point, others would not. Everyone has individual tastes, so everyone's rig would be different based on that personal preference.
Lucky Craft Man reply :
All my bass rod and reel combos (both baitcasting and spinning) balance right where my middle finger on my palming hand is placed. I add weight to the end of the butt of every rod to make sure this is the case.
Jrob78 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:28 AM, A-Jay said:I'm with you, mostly.
Back in the day, gear weighted a ton and balance was never a concern.
In fact, when the first graphite sticks were snapping all over the place because manufacturers were set on making them light, I went the other way and avoided them - I wanted Heft. Seemed to last longer.
Now that they've made some light & reasonably strong blanks, the next 'important' concern was the balance.
I can see where some balance in certain presentations is somewhat desirable, but the concept that I can't cast accurately, detect strikes, set the hook or fish all day because my rod & reel isn't 'balanced' is IMO a Crock.
If I can't fish with a rig that weighs less than a pound all day, because it's too heavy, I need to give up the sport & take up knitting. I hear that stuff is pretty light.
Off the soapbox now.
A-Jay
I think part of the reason it has become such a talking point in the last 10-15 years is mostly due to the trends in rods and reels. Rods have gotten longer, grip materials have gotten smaller and reels have gotten lighter. All of these things work together to create combos that are increasingly tip heavy, there is no way to avoid it. I don't think balance was much of a concern when reels weighed 10-12oz and rods were all 6' long.
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jrob78 said:I think part of the reason it has become such a talking point in the last 10-15 years is mostly due to the trends in rods and reels. Rods have gotten longer, grip materials have gotten smaller and reels have gotten lighter. All of these things work together to create combos that are increasingly tip heavy, there is no way to avoid it. I don't think balance was much of a concern when reels weighed 10-12oz and rods were all 6' long.
11
While I can agree that rod components have changed over the years and this may have affected blank weights - but there is no way on Gods Green Earth, Today's tackle is Heavier than the fiberglass wands of yesteryear.
No Way.
In fact, I bet just the guide train on my Dad's bass rod weighed more than both my drop shot rods combined !
Oh btw - those buggers are very balanced.
A-Jay
Scott F reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jrob78 said:I think part of the reason it has become such a talking point in the last 10-15 years is mostly due to the trends in rods and reels. Rods have gotten longer, grip materials have gotten smaller and reels have gotten lighter. All of these things work together to create combos that are increasingly tip heavy, there is no way to avoid it. I don't think balance was much of a concern when reels weighed 10-12oz and rods were all 6' long.
As far as I'm concerned, balance wasn't a problem back in the day, and it's not a problem for me with modern equipment today.
Jrob78 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:43 AM, A-Jay said:While I can agree that rod components have changed over the years and this may have affected blank weights - but there is no way on Gods Green Earth, Today's tackle is Heavier than the fiberglass wands on yesteryear.
No Way.
In fact, I bet just the guide train on my Dad's bass rod weighed more than both my drop shot rods combined !
Oh btw - those buggers are very balanced.
A-Jay
I didn't say today's rods were heavier, I said they were tip heavier than older rods. Longer rods combined with the lightest components and reels possible make for tip heavy rods. The flipside of that is you can have entire combos that weigh less than your daddy's guides.
Joshua van Wyk reply :
I want all my rod and reels to balance the way I like them to. I spend a lot of my money on fishing gear, which I worked my butt off to get. I want my combos to feel perfect in my hands.
jbsoonerfan reply :
Here is my Curado DC on a 6'10" MH Denali Fission rod. Not sure what this proves, but here it is. LOL
Smelter96 reply :
I for one appreciate a nicely balanced rod. One of the deciding factors on buying a new one. Comfort, durability, balance. Dont care who makes it, if it's good on those 3, I'm interested. Sensitivity is nice, too!
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:54 AM, Joshua van Wyk said:I want all my rod and reels to balance the way I like them to. I spend a lot of my money on fishing gear, which I worked my butt off to get. I want my combos to feel perfect in my hands.
1
And that is exactly as it should be.
Me too.
Our idea of what perfect is may just be a little different that's all.
And as long as we dig our gear, it's all good.
A-Jay
On 3/28/2019 at 10:54 AM, jbsoonerfan said:Here is my Curado DC on a 6'10" MH Denali Fission rod. Not sure what this proves, but here it is. LOL
Sweet
It may mean that you can only catch 'balanced bass' that live in your closet with that particular rig.
A-Jay
Jrob78 reply :
Kistler H3 7'3" HXF with OG Zillion
ResoKP reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:56 AM, A-Jay said:And that is exactly as it should be.
Me too.
Our idea of what perfect is may just be a little different that's all.
And as long as we dig our gear, it's all good.
A-Jay
Difference is mine is 2019 standards and you're still stuck back in the 1950's ????
Some of us are still ways out before retiring from this game. Let us figure out the new generation of products without being spewed "I'm a decendent of Hercules and I used to fish with 20 lb rods" from the all elders over here. I for one would like to see how the new Antares A stacks on a Poison Adrena. Someone here will post that eventually and I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.
For the record, the reel I went with is considerably heavier to balance out the tip-heaviness of today's "too light" rods.
BaitFinesse reply :
If I am interested in a particular rod it is nice to see a picture of where it balances out with a reel mounted and the approximate weight of the reel. This information will allow me to determine:
A. If I even want the rod.
B. What type of reel I would need to pair to the rod to balance it out
Take OP's pic for example. I would like to own an FMJ at some point and that pic tells me all I need to know that it will need to be paired to a reel in the 7oz + range to balance out to my tastes.
jbsoonerfan reply :
Antares DC 7 on a Denali Fission 7'2" H. I must have moved when I took the pic, it was pretty level.
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QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
MH/F 7'6" Omen Black 2 weighs 5.8oz , with a Daiwa SV105 6.2oz reel
jbsoonerfan reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:10 AM, ResoKP said:Difference is mine is 2019 standards and you're still stuck back in the 1950's ????
Some of us are still ways out before retiring from this game. Let us figure out the new generation of products without being spewed "I'm a decendent of Hercules and I used to fish with 20 lb rods" from the all elders over here. I for one would like to see how the new Antares A stacks on a Poison Adrena. Someone here will post that eventually and I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.
For the record, the reel I went with is considerably heavier to balance out the tip-heaviness of today's "too light" rods.
Do you have a theory for what technique you want to use for a particular balance? What about the line? Do you want it to balance a little further for a particular application?
On 3/28/2019 at 11:13 AM, BaitFinesse said:If I am interested in a particular rod it is nice to see a picture of where it balances out with a reel mounted and the approximate weight of the reel. This information will allow me to determine:
A. If I even want the rod.
B. What type of reel I would need to pair to the rod to balance it out
Take OP's pic for example. I would like to own an FMJ at some point and that pic tells me all I need to know that it will need to be paired to a reel in the 7oz + range to balance out to my tastes.
But what does it matter? Does a half inch or 1 inch make a difference? I bet when you are fishing with it you couldn't tell the difference.
But, it's 2019 standards where a reel that weighs .8 more than another really fatigues people.
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:10 AM, ResoKP said:Difference is mine is 2019 standards and you're still stuck back in the 1950's ????
Some of us are still ways out before retiring from this game. Let us figure out the new generation of products without being spewed "I'm a decendent of Hercules and I used to fish with 20 lb rods" from the all elders over here. I for one would like to see how the new Antares A stacks on a Poison Adrena. Someone here will post that eventually and I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.
For the record, the reel I went with is considerably heavier to balance out the tip-heaviness of today's "too light" rods.
5
Well, that's got to be it.
I'm just an old spewer.
10/0 Penn Senator on a heavy action Tuna Stick - balances perfectly.
Who knew. @WRB Tom Knows
A-Jay
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:29 AM, A-Jay said:Well, that's got to be it.
I'm just an old spewer.
10/0 Penn Senator on a heavy action Tuna Stick - balances perfectly.
Who knew. @WRB Tom Knows
A-Jay
How well does it toss a ned rig? Thats what we really need to know.
A-Jay reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:42 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:How well does it toss a ned rig? Thats what we really need to know.
Perfectly, as long it's at least 28 ounces; and balanced.
A-Jay
(I need to go fishing)
jbsoonerfan reply :
Geez, I'm like a fat TW model. All my pics are in a TW shirt.
soflabasser reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:56 AM, A-Jay said:It may mean that you can only catch 'balanced bass' that live in your closet with that particular rig.
LOL
On 3/28/2019 at 11:29 AM, A-Jay said:Well, that's got to be it.
I'm just an old spewer.
10/0 Penn Senator on a heavy action Tuna Stick - balances perfectly.
That is a very nice Penn Senator. I have a collection of Penn Senators from 4/0 to 12/0, many of them are older than me and still work very well.
NittyGrittyBoy reply :
This thread gave me a good laugh. It's gonna be the next Instagram hashtag
#balancedfishing
#2019goals
#balancedBASS
BaitFinesse reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:22 AM, jbsoonerfan said:Do you have a theory for what technique you want to use for a particular balance? What about the line? Do you want it to balance a little further for a particular application?
But what does it matter? Does a half inch or 1 inch make a difference? I bet when you are fishing with it you couldn't tell the difference.
But, it's 2019 standards where a reel that weighs .8 more than another really fatigues people.
My my more poorly balanced combos (tip heavy) balance out on the rod blank inches in front of the lock nut. My balanced combos balanced out on the lock nut or even on the reel seat. A picture of a reel on a rod balancing out can tell me whether or the rod will be tip heavy or what type of reel I should put on the rod. This is particularly important if I haven't bought the reel I intend to pair to the rod.
Brad Reid reply :
For me, it'd be almost all about overall weight, the one metric that makes the most noticeable difference after a long day with a rod and reel in one's hands. It makes a big difference regarding sensitivity, too.
And, this, because as regards a "finger" balance, it isn't a position we find ourselves in while actually fishing. We want our lines out as much as possible. For finesse presentations, almost all are performed with a bit of tension on the line . . . and this adds a bit of downward pressure on the rod tip. This is where you want to perfect balance: lure in the water.
For power presentations or active casting and reeling, again, the balance point is shifted toward the rod tip, too, as we experience the resistance of line and lure drag.
It leaves me thinking overall weight trumps balance.
But, not totally discounting the importance of balance, no, I'd think in most cases using a playground teeter totter as an example, we'd want the tip of the rod higher, the reel end to be the slightly heavier of the two knowing the rod tip will have forces pressing down on it while actually fishing.
*** Hoping to hear someone's experience with the super, super light Shimano Poison Adrena rods with a very light reel. I saw the video of the guy walking around holding the butt end of this rod between his finger and thumb like he was holding a toothpick. And, well, I like spending other people's money for them. Ha!
Poison Adrena here. Impressive.
Brad
Catt reply :
I guess I'm to old cause I don't see where y'all have proven anything!
If y'all move your finger backwards or forwards any combo will "balance" out!
Where's the proper "balance" point?
None of those pictures show how y'all actually hold your rod while fishing.
Hang a 1.5 oz punch weight off the end, where's the balance point now? Or a 1/2 oz spinnerbait or a weightless Fluke.
I guess this kind of discussion is how y'all kill time during winter.
jbsoonerfan reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:09 PM, Catt said:I guess I'm to old cause I don't see where y'all have proven anything!
If y'all move your finger backwards or forwards any combo will "balance" out!
Where's the proper "balance" point?
None of those pictures show how y'all actually hold your rod while fishing.
Hang a 1.5 oz punch weight off the end, where's the balance point now? Or a 1/2 oz spinnerbait or a weightless Fluke.
I guess this kind of discussion is how y'all kill time during winter.
Exactly!!!!! That's why I posted my pics, to show that they prove nothing.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, but I think the title should have been "Look at my new combo"
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:09 PM, Catt said:I guess I'm to old cause I don't see where y'all have proven anything!
If y'all move your finger backwards or forwards any combo will "balance" out!
Where's the proper "balance" point?
None of those pictures show how y'all actually hold your rod while fishing.
Hang a 1.5 oz punch weight off the end, where's the balance point now? Or a 1/2 oz spinnerbait or a weightless Fluke.
I guess this kind of discussion is how y'all kill time during winter.
Let me try to explain. If you spend enough money on a rod and reel, you're gonna want to admire how good if feels in your hand. If you understand the physics of torque, then you understand that the forces on a rod change as you change the rod angle and they change dramatically when you attach a lure. None of this matters when you're just standing around admiring your perfectly balance $1000 combo.
jbsoonerfan reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 8:45 PM, Tennessee Boy said:Let me try to explain. If you spend enough money on a rod and reel, you're gonna want to admire how good if feels in your hand. If you understand the physics of torque, then you understand that the forces on a rod change as you change the rod angle and they change dramatically when you attach a lure. None of this matters when you're just standing around admiring your perfectly balance $1000 combo.
Some people, not here but on another forum. Post more pics of their gear than they do of fish they catch.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:09 PM, Catt said:I guess I'm to old cause I don't see where y'all have proven anything!
If y'all move your finger backwards or forwards any combo will "balance" out!
Where's the proper "balance" point?
None of those pictures show how y'all actually hold your rod while fishing.
Hang a 1.5 oz punch weight off the end, where's the balance point now? Or a 1/2 oz spinnerbait or a weightless Fluke.
I guess this kind of discussion is how y'all kill time during winter.
Yet you're posting, along with a few others, in this thread you care nothing about how silly is that.
Its quite simple those of you that that feel like you do no reason to view the thread anymore. Participate being on topic or move along dont waste your precious time.
ResoKP reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 5:19 PM, Brad Reid said:For me, it'd be almost all about overall weight, the one metric that makes the most noticeable difference after a long day with a rod and reel in one's hands. It makes a big difference regarding sensitivity, too.
And, this, because as regards a "finger" balance, it isn't a position we find ourselves in while actually fishing. We want our lines out as much as possible. For finesse presentations, almost all are performed with a bit of tension on the line . . . and this adds a bit of downward pressure on the rod tip. This is where you want to perfect balance: lure in the water.
For power presentations or active casting and reeling, again, the balance point is shifted toward the rod tip, too, as we experience the resistance of line and lure drag.
It leaves me thinking overall weight trumps balance.
But, not totally discounting the importance of balance, no, I'd think in most cases using a playground teeter totter as an example, we'd want the tip of the rod higher, the reel end to be the slightly heavier of the two knowing the rod tip will have forces pressing down on it while actually fishing.
*** Hoping to hear someone's experience with the super, super light Shimano Poison Adrena rods with a very light reel. I saw the video of the guy walking around holding the butt end of this rod between his finger and thumb like he was holding a toothpick. And, well, I like spending other people's money for them. Ha!
Poison Adrena here. Impressive.
Brad
If the overall weight is the only thing mattered, then the answer to every question about balance would be: Shimano ALDEBARAN. But it's not.
Catt reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:06 PM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:Yet you're posting, along with a few others, in this thread you care nothing about how silly is that.
Its quite simple those of you that that feel like you do no reason to view the thread anymore. Participate being on topic or move along dont waste your precious time.
Silly me!
I didn't know I needed your permission to comment on a topic!
I'll be sure to check with you next time ????
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 9:27 AM, jbrew73 said:This was without a reel?
Yes without a reel.
I thought this forum was different, that people talk about what stuff they like and dont like, without telling other people its useless and doesnt matter. This seems to be a sensitive topic to some for reasons unknown to me....
I for one, seem to USE rods that are my favorite performing, and favorite FEELING combos I have. For example, my Champion 705CB balances very well compared to some similar price rods. I use the same Fuego CTs on all of my casting rods, so the reel doesnt matter much. If you have a consistent grip on all your reels, the balance point without reel is still a good starting reference, it doesnt need to be more complicated than that. I like rods that balance closer to my hand. They are more fun. They dont catch more fish, win trophies, or give me more vacation days. I just like them better.
OkobojiEagle reply :
I hope this comment will stay under the "snark radar"... quite a few years ago I developed tennis elbow during my fall walleye fishing. I tried ice packs after fishing, heat ointment before fishing and compression bands during fishing. All of these remedies helped a tad, but didn't cure the symptoms. This annoyance continued for two fishing seasons until I weighted the butt of the fishing rods I was using. I weighted the rod butt to the point of the rod/reel balanced on my index finger where I held each rod (without lures attached). I've not suffered with tennis elbow since. Maybe its a witch doctor's spell, or the planets aligning just so, but I'll continue to give credit to balancing my fishing rods/reels.
oe
J Francho reply :
All these tip heavy pics. Do you all fish with your baitcast reel on the bottom? Years ago, Larry Dahlberg showed a sling that he made to determine balance point on casting/conventional setups. It held the rod with the reel in the proper upright position. He often had to add weight to the butt to get it to balance they way he liked. At any rate, I really don't know what point is my preference. It either feels right or not.
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:49 PM, OkobojiEagle said:I hope this comment will stay under the "snark radar"... quite a few years ago I developed tennis elbow during my fall walleye fishing. I tried ice packs after fishing, heat ointment before fishing and compression bands during fishing. All of these remedies helped a tad, but didn't cure the symptoms. This annoyance continued for two fishing seasons until I weighted the butt of the fishing rods I was using. I weighted the rod butt to the point of the rod/reel balanced on my index finger where I held each rod (without lures attached). I've not suffered with tennis elbow since. Maybe its a witch doctor's spell, or the planets aligning just so, but I'll continue to give credit to balancing my fishing rods/reels.
oe
Im with you. The reason I care so much is becasue I broke both wrists racing motocross 15 years ago and have had 3 surguries on each since then. If someone wants balance and will notice, I believe it will be me. Game changer for me when it comes to fishing more than 10 minutes.
ResoKP reply :
Here's my Orochi XX Perfect Pitch with Tatula SV. Tip constantly dropping got rather unpleasant fishing for 12 hours a day last season.
And this is with 4 quarters added to the butt end:
Already seems to feel a lot better. Will have to play with it on the water this season
OkobojiEagle reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 5:19 PM, Brad Reid said:where you want to perfect balance: lure in the water.
Brad, I'm going to disagree with you here. I want the lure weight and/or action of the lure to tip the rod out of balance. This aids me in feeling the lure. Additional lure weight or loss of lure weight is a pretty good indication I should set the hook.
oe
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:50 PM, J Francho said:All these tip heavy pics. Do you all fish with your baitcast reel on the bottom? Years ago, Larry Dahlberg showed a sling that he made to determine balance point on casting/conventional setups. It held the rod with the reel in the proper upright position. He often had to add weight to the butt to get it to balance they way he liked. At any rate, I really don't know what point is my preference. It either feels right or not.
Its been a long while since I took statics, so ill rely on simple concepts, but I dont see how the balance would be any different at all with the reel up or down. The load is applied at the same point either way, with the same force so it shouldnt be different upside down or not when trying to find the actual balance point.
On 3/28/2019 at 11:02 PM, ResoKP said:Here's my Orochi XX Perfect Pitch with Tatula SV. Tip constantly dropping gets rather unpleasant fishing for 12 hours a day all last season.
And this is with 4 quarters added to the butt end:
Already seems to feel a lot better. Will have to play with it on the water this season
Nice. Good example thanks for sharing. Ill have to try that on a few of my combos.
jbsoonerfan reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:10 AM, ResoKP said:Difference is mine is 2019 standards and you're still stuck back in the 1950's ????
Some of us are still ways out before retiring from this game. Let us figure out the new generation of products without being spewed "I'm a decendent of Hercules and I used to fish with 20 lb rods" from the all elders over here. I for one would like to see how the new Antares A stacks on a Poison Adrena. Someone here will post that eventually and I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.
For the record, the reel I went with is considerably heavier to balance out the tip-heaviness of today's "too light" rods.
I wouldn't dog A-Jay too much, maybe you should look at one of his threads before calling him out. He might be a decedent of Hercules.
I think the reason many of us "old men" don't understand why it matters is because one inch toward the tip vs toward the reel seat isn't really going to make a difference in a fishing situation. Sure, sitting around your house and taking pics it might, but not out on the water. I'm sorry, but if anyone really gets fatigued or tired over a few ounces, maybe you should take up remote control planes or something. Never mind, the remote would probably be too heavy.
Fishingmickey reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:29 AM, A-Jay said:Well, that's got to be it.
I'm just an old spewer.
10/0 Penn Senator on a heavy action Tuna Stick - balances perfectly.
Who knew. @WRB Tom Knows
A-Jay
This picture shows obviously a descendant of Hercules!
FM
Mobasser reply :
I've probably caught hundreds of fish with rods/reels that are not perfectly balanced. I never gave it that much thought. Just went fishing
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:47 PM, jbsoonerfan said:I wouldn't dog A-Jay too much, maybe you should look at one of his threads before calling him out. He might be a decedent of Hercules.
I think the reason many of us "old men" don't understand why it matters is because one inch toward the tip vs toward the reel seat isn't really going to make a difference in a fishing situation. Sure, sitting around your house and taking pics it might, but not out on the water. I'm sorry, but if anyone really gets fatigued or tired over a few ounces, maybe you should take up remote control planes or something. Never mind, the remote would probably be too heavy.
You dont seem to understand everyone is different or have different preferences. At 38 years old, I can bench my body weight ten times still for reference, and ride 30 minute motos twice a week on an MX track. Its not about not being strong enough, sometimes there are other circumstances. Everyone is different. Thanks for the plane idea....
Maybe those that actually get fatigued dont want to fly an RC plane. Way to chase them off a FISHING forum.
LionHeart reply :
What if I told you the weight of your reel does not affect balance of your bait casting rod when you are palming the reel?
A-Jay reply :
While the majority of what I've added to this thread has been tongue & cheek, this is not.
I totally understand the concept of balanced gear.
Additionally, the notion that everyone is different and or has different preferences does not illude me.
Since I was one of the first responders here, seems I may have placed a spin on this thread that was not exactly inline with what the OP was intending or hoping for; in fact it's been quite the opposite.
A classic hi-jack.
So to @ResoKP - I'd like to humbly apologize.
I've learned from it and going forward will certainly make an effort to refrain from such reckless behavior.
A-Jay
BaitFinesse reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:02 PM, ResoKP said:Here's my Orochi XX Perfect Pitch with Tatula SV. Tip constantly dropping got rather unpleasant fishing for 12 hours a day last season.
And this is with 4 quarters added to the butt end:
Already seems to feel a lot better. Will have to play with it on the water this season
My last gen Perfect Pitch balances out with an IP68 (7.55oz) like your last pic. Did you own any of the gen 1 Orochi XX rods?
Choporoz reply :
What is the weight of the spooled line in each pic above?
fissure_man reply :
For those concerned about tip heaviness, balance point is simply the wrong measure to compare setups.
Take @ResoKP's example. The balance point shifted butt-ward maybe 1” with the addition of a few quarters to the butt (Option A). The exact same balance point could have also been achieved by switching to a heavier reel (Option B).
Having achieved equal balance points, would both of these options have resulted in the same ‘feel’ in terms of tip heaviness? The answer is no, unless @ResoKP actually holds the rod/reel at the locking nut (i.e. at the balance point) in operation. Assuming the user’s grip is aligned with the reel’s center of mass or slightly ahead, Option A is less tip heavy than Option B. If the grip is centered behind the reel’s center of mass, Option A still gives the least tip-weight, and the tip-heaviness of Option B would actually be worse than doing nothing at all (despite ‘improving’ the location of the balance point). Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular.
Considering the above, why would we expect the balance points of different rod/reel combos, which are not aligned with our grip location, to be reliable indicators of tip weight (or at least, reliable enough for the level of hair-splitting desired in this thread)?
Jaderose reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, ResoKP said:Often overlooked, let's see some of your favourite spinning and baitcasting combos and how they balance.
Post up some pictures of their balancing points.
Megabass Destroyer FMJ & Daiwa morethan PE 1000XHL
How do you like that Morethan?
fishballer06 reply :
BaitFinesse reply :
A combo that balances out close to the reel seat will be less tip heavy when palming than one that balances out down the blank far from the reel seat. We all know this. Is there some inside joke about balance where we all pretend to be stupid that I am not aware of.
ResoKP reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 12:26 AM, BaitFinesse said:My last gen Perfect Pitch balances out with an IP68 (7.55oz) like your last pic. Did you own any of the gen 1 Orochi XX rods?
No, unfortunately I did not get a chance to handle the gen 1 Orochi XX's. I got the 2nd gen PP after seeing a lot of positive reviews regarding the first gen. I would've liked to compare between the two gens, but it looks like I won't be able to.
On 3/29/2019 at 12:42 AM, Jaderose said:How do you like that Morethan?
I've only went out with it once so I can't say much of how it performs yet. Very smooth and feels solid in hand. Weight difference is noticeable compared to Steez A, but very small. It's also got a thick layer of clear coat on the finish. Feels completely different to the touch compared to Steez SV/A. Not a fan of the clear coat feeling but that's just nitpicking and not deal breaker for me. It would probably add to the durability if anything. I haven't seen anyone else mention that aspect so thought I'd add. Likely going to be one of the reels I'll keep forever.
jbsoonerfan reply :
Okay, so someone break this down for a dumb Okie on why it matters when fishing. I have asked that question with no answer. Is it just when casting? Working a soft plastic or jig? Walking the dog? Rolling a spinnerbait? Cranking a lipless? If I am using a spinnerbait my rod tip is pointed to the water. A soft plastic or jig it is pointed about 10:00. So do I want it to be more tip heavy with the spinnerbait and butt heavy with the soft plastic. Sorry, I am looking for real world answers here and how it pertains to actual fishing. Like I said, I have never thought about it so I am looking for reasons why it matters to those that have actually put some thought into it.
Jigfishn10 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 10:50 PM, J Francho said:It either feels right or not.
Couldn't agree more.
@ResoKP I "like" your OP, it appears that's what your looking for, but no need to call out a respected member.
BTW, it's a sweet rig you got
Jrob78 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 1:23 AM, BaitFinesse said:A combo that balances out close to the reel seat will be less tip heavy when palming than one that balances out down the blank far from the reel seat. We all know this. Is there some inside joke about balance where we all pretend to be stupid that I am not aware of.
You are correct. This topic comes up pretty frequently and people love to argue over it, call each other "weight weinees" some even say the reel has nothing to do with balance, which is absurd. I think people just get bored waiting for spring.
I've only ever had one rod that I felt I needed to add weight, it balanced out way ahead of the reel seat and was a tip up technique rod. Adding a cap with weights in the butt made the combo much more pleasurable to fish even though it added several ounces to the overall weight of the combo.
I've never worried too much about balance as most of my setups are custom and I build them with what I consider acceptable balance based on the technique they are intended. I never worry about it for tip down, cast and retrieve presentations as it doesn't really matter (to me.) Tip up presentations it becomes more critical (to me) but as long as the tip heaviness isn't extreme, I'm good with it and will use a heavier reel to act as a counterbalance if necessary.
ResoKP reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 1:47 AM, Jigfishn10 said:Couldn't agree more.
@ResoKP I "like" your OP, it appears that's what your looking for, but no need to call out a respected member.
BTW, it's a sweet rig you got
So if someone with a 20k post count and is worshiped like a god around here comes in to tell me that I should quit fishing and take up knitting instead, I should just stay quiet?
Not to mention he completely missed the point regarding the topic while coming off condescending and making assumptions that I was looking to reduce weight when in fact I did just the opposite.
I tried to be nice in the beginning but seems like you can't have a productive discussion around here when you've got a few people pushing their post counts around and continue derailing the topic.
Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay. I've read lots of his insightful posts in the past so it's all good haha
J Francho reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 2:57 AM, ResoKP said:Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay.
It isn't post count, it's the content that has earned the respect.
Jigfishn10 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 2:57 AM, ResoKP said:So if someone with a 20k post count and is worshiped like a god around here comes in to tell me that I should quit fishing and take up knitting instead, I should just stay quiet?
Not to mention he completely missed the point regarding the topic while coming off condescending and making assumptions that I was looking to reduce weight when in fact I did just the opposite.
I tried to be nice in the beginning but seems like you can't have a productive discussion around here when you've got a few people pushing their post counts around and continue derailing the topic.
Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay. I've read lots of his insightful posts in the past so it's all good haha
I'm sorry you feel that way bud, but I read the dialog and didn't get that impression, especially the knitting statement, seems to have been made in a very general sense. I may be misinterpreting here, but it doesn't appear condescending to me?
And yes we can have productive dialog and you will learn that guys are very passionate about their gear and will voice their opinion. No harm is being done, just all casual banter.
Go fish that bad boy rig and make memories with it.
fishwizzard reply :
Rod weight/balance is the same argument that is had across all hobbies that involve carried equipment. Backpacking is maybe the worst with some people obsessing over how short they can cut the handle of their toothbrush down to save a gram or three and others who like to carry three knives, an axe and a saw and don’t even think about weighting their pack.
People get really personal about this and you have a lot of guys who still love their 20lb-empty exterior frame packs and cannot fathom why someone would care about lugging all that dead weight around.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 12:40 AM, fissure_man said:For those concerned about tip heaviness, balance point is simply the wrong measure to compare setups.
Take @ResoKP's example. The balance point shifted butt-ward maybe 1” with the addition of a few quarters to the butt (Option A). The exact same balance point could have also been achieved by switching to a heavier reel (Option B).
Having achieved equal balance points, would both of these options have resulted in the same ‘feel’ in terms of tip heaviness? The answer is no, unless @ResoKP actually holds the rod/reel at the locking nut (i.e. at the balance point) in operation. Assuming the user’s grip is aligned with the reel’s center of mass or slightly ahead, Option A is less tip heavy than Option B. If the grip is centered behind the reel’s center of mass, Option A still gives the least tip-weight, and the tip-heaviness of Option B would actually be worse than doing nothing at all (despite ‘improving’ the location of the balance point). Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular.
Considering the above, why would we expect the balance points of different rod/reel combos, which are not aligned with our grip location, to be reliable indicators of tip weight (or at least, reliable enough for the level of hair-splitting desired in this thread)?
Option a requires much less weight to balance than option b would. 1oz added to butt section would need
around 4-5oz heavier reel to accomplish same balance.
jbsoonerfan reply :
Where you hold the rod also plays a role. Look at Gary Klein, his entire hand is in front of the reel.
WRangler506 reply :
I can give my example of why it might matter. I HAD to switch and learn baitcasters after I tried one and felt how much better of an angle my wrist was in. A baitcaster is a FAR BETTER angle for my wrist (especially palming the reel)w 3 surgeries and pins and wires, so that was a huge improvement. Now, Im realizing that lets say a 1oz tipheavy feel is experienced. You will feel that when holding the rod, reeling the bait, working the bait on bottom, AND you get the weight of the bait. My wrist can handle weight, but it doesnt like the palm facing inward and hand forced downward stress. Its the angle mostly thats bad.
One of my favorite baits is heavy spinnerbaits, but I cant even fish them anymore. Been this way since I injured my wrists at 19 years old. The wrist is at an angle, stresses the ligaments and all the hardware in my joint and I have to START with the best balance possible. For me, Im willing to bet overall weight might help too, but im not loaded with cash so I just do the best I can.
I can handle some harassing and stuff its no big deal its just the internet, but I really didnt get why this topic caused some of those comments. We really should not be harassing or insulting others and telling them to give up fishing. If you dont care about balance then move along, right? Thats what I do with every thread title that doesnt interest me.
Tennessee Boy reply :
Leave it to @A-Jay to take the high road. I have an engineering background and these balance threads always dive me a little crazy. Everyone can enjoy and learn from a good debate on this forum. Insults have no place. My post this morning was very condescending and I apologize for that.
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 11:53 PM, Mobasser said:I've probably caught hundreds of fish with rods/reels that are not perfectly balanced. I never gave it that much thought. Just went fishing
Same here. Ive also caught fish on full cork vs split, 1 piece rods vs 2, junk rings vs good sic rings, 66 vs 7ft. Its just a preference for some people, to have something balance well.
I even like pretty fishing rods more than ugly ones.
Im pretty new on here and might seem new, but ive been fishing for 30+ years and maybe wasnt doing all things the "right" way, but I still caught thousands of fish. Enjoying it is the most important to me.
On 3/29/2019 at 3:44 AM, Tennessee Boy said:I have an engineering background and these balance threads always dive me a little crazy. Everyone can enjoy and learn from a good debate on this forum.
That just proves were all different. Im also an ME engineer and I find the balance threads useful haha. I may be an outlier as to why it matters though.
fissure_man reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 3:19 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:Option a requires much less weight to balance than option b would. 1oz added to butt section would need
around 4-5oz heavier reel to accomplish same balance.
Agreed - "Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular. " Kinda outside my point, though.
@Jrob78 and @BaitFinesse: While balance point is obviously not unrelated to tip heaviness, I stand by my previous post that demonstrates that it’s not always reliable for comparing the tip-heaviness of setups, and I’d challenge the belief that heavy reels cure tip-heavy rods (depending on one’s grip, of course). It’s difficult to come up with a more straightforward or relevant example than I’ve given above, but here’s another:
Consider two pieces of lumber: an 8’ 2x4 and an 8’ 2x2. Weight (mass) per foot of the 2x4 is double that of the 2x2. Both pieces of lumber balance perfectly at the 4 ft mark.
If you gripped both pieces of lumber (which have identical balance points) at a distance of 1 foot from the center, which one will feel more tip-heavy? Note: this crudely simulates palming or gripping a rod behind its balance point, as is typically the case with production rods.
As with fishing rods, tip-heaviness here refers to the resistive torque you must supply at the grip location to prevent rotation under gravity. Let’s assume the rods/lumber are horizontal in this test.
Let “m” represent the mass per foot of the 2x2. The mass per foot of the 2x4 is therefore “2m”.
For both the 2x2 and 2x4, gripped 1 ft offset from the center mark, the ‘butt’ (behind the grip location) is 3 ft long, while the ‘rod’ (ahead of the grip location) is 5 ft long. The weight of the butt can be represented as a point load at 1.5 ft behind the grip (this is the butt’s center of mass), while the weight of the rod is a point load at 2.5 ft ahead of the grip.
Tip heaviness (“T”) is calculated as the difference in opposing torques supplied by the acting of gravity on the butt and rod segments. The equations for both pieces of lumber are the same, only the butt and rod masses are different.
2x2:
T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)
T = (m x 5 x 2.5) – (m x 3 x 1.5)
T = 12.5m – 4.5m = 8m
2x4:
T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)
T = (2m x 5 x 2.5) – (2m x 3 x 1.5)
T = 25m – 9m = 16m
Is it surprising that the tip heaviness of the 2x4 is twice that of the 2x2, given that their balance points are identical? Is there any reason that the same physical concepts shouldn’t apply to fishing rods?
Edited by fissure_man
typo
J Francho reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 3:38 AM, WRangler506 said:I can handle some harassing and stuff its no big deal its just the internet, but I really didnt get why this topic caused some of those comments. We really should not be harassing or insulting others and telling them to give up fishing. If you dont care about balance then move along, right? Thats what I do with every thread title that doesnt interest me.
No one in this thread told anyone to quit fishing. The OP demonstrated a fact, and formed an opinion about it. The very nature of how these forums work is stating agreement or dissent in reply. If you don't want to hear an opposing opinion, or can't handle a reasonable discussion, then it is you that should move on.
jbsoonerfan reply :
Things just got real in here.
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 4:01 AM, J Francho said:No one in this thread told anyone to quit fishing. The OP demonstrated a fact, and formed an opinion about it. The very nature of how these forums work is stating agreement or dissent in reply. If you don't want to hear an opposing opinion, or can't handle a reasonable discussion, then it is you that should move on.
Uh no, I was commenting to a particular person, who told someone else not me, to give up fishing and go fly a remote control airplane. And that no they probably couldnt handle that. Thats pretty lame to say to someone on a fishing forum that shares the same interests.
Go ahead tell me to move on, whatever. I was defending someone else not myself, for someone insulting them. Nice coment though. I offered some data and opinions to others, that was it.
fishballer06 reply :
Can we all be friends again? Or do I need to get more popcorn?
A-Jay reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 4:09 AM, fishballer06 said:Can we all be friends again? Or do I need to get more popcorn?
A-Jay
NittyGrittyBoy reply :
Balance is a big deal to some, to others it ain't. Opinions formed, feelings hurt, apologies made. Get on with it, throwing shade ain't gonna help.
In before it's locked ????
J Francho reply :
Again, if you post an opinion, and can't handle someone not agreeing, don't post. Several in this thread have gotten chippy instead of trying to learn more.
@fissure_man that's a great post, and something I was thinking about as to why it's not all about "balance." The device that Dahlberg used measured tip weight. He felt a lighter tip helped him fish longer. He was dealing with pretty heavy tackle, though.
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 4:19 AM, J Francho said:Again, if you post an opinion, and can't handle someone not agreeing, don't post. Several in this thread have gotten chippy instead of trying to learn more.
@fissure_man that's a great post, and something I was thinking about as to why it's not all about "balance." The device that Dahlberg used measured tip weight. He felt a lighter tip helped him fish longer. He was dealing with pretty heavy tackle, though.
Since you replied quoting me above, I assume you are referring to me. Nobody said anything bad to me, nor did I. I was simply referring to someone else that was throwing insults to another person on here, about the find a new hobby comments...and to clarify IT WAS NOT a comment from A-Jay...
As for the opposing opinons, Im all for it. Thats what Im here for is to hear all opinions. Thats not what the issue was.
J Francho reply :
It was a general warning. This is your third post justifying your comments. We've all had enough. I'd like to return to the topic. fissure_man posted an interesting point. Stay on topic.
WRangler506 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 4:30 AM, J Francho said:It was a general warning. This is your third post justifying your comments. We've all had enough. I'd like to return to the topic. fissure_man posted an interesting point. Stay on topic.
Point taken. I wont ever defend anyone else here from insults here again. Thanks
Jrob78 reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 3:59 AM, fissure_man said:Agreed - "Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular. " Kinda outside my point, though.
@Jrob78 and @BaitFinesse: While balance point is obviously not unrelated to tip heaviness, I stand by my previous post that demonstrates that it’s not always reliable for comparing the tip-heaviness of setups, and I’d challenge the belief that heavy reels cure tip-heavy rods (depending on one’s grip, of course). It’s difficult to come up with a more straightforward or relevant example than I’ve given above, but here’s another
I appreciate you taking the time to provide a real world example and I agree that balance point isn't the tell all when comparing rods of different lengths, with different components, some of which are on both sides of that balance point. All of those things play a role in how a set up will balance, as will grip position.
I'm simply saying, as @BaitFinesse also stated, anything that moves that balance point closer to the reel seat is going to lessen felt tip heaviness on a given rod. This is especially true when you grip a reel with all fingers in front of the trigger, close to the reel nut, as I do. Adding weight to the butt of the rod is going to be much more effective than adding a heavier reel but it isn't nearly as easy or convenient to accomplish.
Joshua van Wyk reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 2:57 AM, ResoKP said:So if someone with a 20k post count and is worshiped like a god around here comes in to tell me that I should quit fishing and take up knitting instead, I should just stay quiet?
Not to mention he completely missed the point regarding the topic while coming off condescending and making assumptions that I was looking to reduce weight when in fact I did just the opposite.
I tried to be nice in the beginning but seems like you can't have a productive discussion around here when you've got a few people pushing their post counts around and continue derailing the topic.
Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay. I've read lots of his insightful posts in the past so it's all good haha
If A-Jay tells you to start knitting you start knitting.
soflabasser reply :
This subject made me curious to see if my fishing rods are ''balanced'' and so I tested them and most are balanced with the exception of some travel rods and saltwater rods I have. Those rods have caught me muskie, smallmouth bass, blue catfish, snook, tarpon, hybrid striper, various species of sharks and other nice fish. Based on my personal experiences I do not need a rod to be 100% balanced but acknowledge the fact that balanced rods might help some people who fatigue easily while holding a fishing rod for more than 1 hour. Maybe the heavy hammer dumbbell curls I do help my fishing game to the point I do not need a light, balanced rod? Point is everyone needs to fish the way they want and they will know if they are fishing ''the correct way'' if they are catching lots of quality fish.
jbrew73 reply :
I find tip heavy rods more fatiguing when I am working a frog or spook tip down. My favorite pond fishing frog rod (7’3”)where I worked the frog tip up due to the shoreline was the worst rod ever in my boat where I tend to work the lure tip down. I dropped back to a similar 7’ rod and problem solved.
With other applications it doesn’t even seem like an issue either way.
i guess tip heavy, balance, overall weight, etc are all related but can mean different things to different people. I think this thread was a good read overall and hope we can stay on track.
side note......
On 3/29/2019 at 4:50 AM, Joshua van Wyk said:If A-Jay tells you to start knitting you start knitting
This will probably be my favorite quote of 2019. Love it!!
fin reply :
Zebco 2020 (c.1975) on 5’-6’ M Pistol Grip Ugly Stik
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 3/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, ResoKP said:Often overlooked, let's see some of your favourite spinning and baitcasting combos and how they balance.
Post up some pictures of their balancing points.
So the topic is posting pics of favorite combos' balance
On 3/29/2019 at 4:30 AM, J Francho said:It was a general warning. This is your third post justifying your comments. We've all had enough. I'd like to return to the topic. fissure_man posted an interesting point. Stay on topic.
Thanks.
A combo that I use with the lightest overall weight is a Core50MG7 5.5oz with an Okuma Helios 7' M/F rod weighing 3.3oz. The rod still has good power and crisp action and can be bought around $120 or so at times so getting a lightweight rod doesnt mean breaking your bank account. The balance is good even with light reel.
fissure_man reply :
@Jrob78 – thanks for the reply. Not meaning to be difficult but I still wouldn't agree with the statement “anything that moves the balance point closer to the reel seat is going to lessen felt tip heaviness on a given rod.”
As you’ve indicated, the tip heaviness you feel depends on where you’re gripping the rod. Putting a heavier reel on a tip-heavy combo will always move the balance point closer to the reel, regardless of grip, but this only translates into reduced “felt tip heaviness” if you’re gripping ahead of the reel’s center of mass (as it sounds like you may be). Many don’t, and for those whose grip supports the rod at or behind the center of the reel, tip heaviness will be either unchanged or worsened with a heavier reel, respectively.
Simply put (on paper, anyway): if you’re not gripping ahead of the center of reel, then the reel’s weight is acting on the ‘tip’ side of the fulcrum (or at best, it’s acting directly on the fulcrum). Only when the fulcrum is ahead of the center of the reel by using a forward grip (or by doing the “finger balance test”) does the reel’s weight begin to offset tip weight. Folks fine-tuning the balance of their setups (and installing heavier-than-necessary reels) based on the finger test, then reverting to centered or rear-biased palming grips are misleading themselves, IMO. (Does this really matter when it comes to putting fish in the boat? Of course not. What works, works)
It should be said, it's certainly an oversimplification to consider one's grip as a single point around which the rod rotates, as I've done. In reality, your fingers are spread out, some of which may be ahead of the center of the reel, some aligned, and/or some behind (depending on grip style). Where wrist action is involved, say, twitching a jig with an upward-pointed rod, I can imagine the brunt of the upward force is provided by the foreward-most fingers, "dynamically" moving the fulcrum ahead (lightening the tip). On a "down-twitch" the opposite could be true.
Glaucus reply :
I've never checked where my combos balance just like I don't check or compare the weights of rods and reels. Only in special cases for specific people could I ever see it mattering. Like who cares if one rod is 3.8oz and the other is 4.2oz. Who cares if one reel is 7.6oz and the other is 7.8oz. Who cares where I have to place my finger to balance a setup.
ratherbfishin1 reply :
I’m hesitant to post seeing what is going on with this thread... but here’s my lews tournament pro lfs on a Johnny Morris signature series. It balances out nicely for my liking.
MN Fisher reply :
Oh why not - all my rigs balance around the same point. Here's a shot of my Finesse rig.
BaitFinesse reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 3:59 AM, fissure_man said:Agreed - "Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular. " Kinda outside my point, though.
@Jrob78 and @BaitFinesse: While balance point is obviously not unrelated to tip heaviness, I stand by my previous post that demonstrates that it’s not always reliable for comparing the tip-heaviness of setups, and I’d challenge the belief that heavy reels cure tip-heavy rods (depending on one’s grip, of course). It’s difficult to come up with a more straightforward or relevant example than I’ve given above, but here’s another:
Consider two pieces of lumber: an 8’ 2x4 and an 8’ 2x2. Weight (mass) per foot of the 2x4 is double that of the 2x2. Both pieces of lumber balance perfectly at the 4 ft mark.
If you gripped both pieces of lumber (which have identical balance points) at a distance of 1 foot from the center, which one will feel more tip-heavy? Note: this crudely simulates palming or gripping a rod behind its balance point, as is typically the case with production rods.
As with fishing rods, tip-heaviness here refers to the resistive torque you must supply at the grip location to prevent rotation under gravity. Let’s assume the rods/lumber are horizontal in this test.
Let “m” represent the mass per foot of the 2x2. The mass per foot of the 2x4 is therefore “2m”.
For both the 2x2 and 2x4, gripped 1 ft offset from the center mark, the ‘butt’ (behind the grip location) is 3 ft long, while the ‘rod’ (ahead of the grip location) is 5 ft long. The weight of the butt can be represented as a point load at 1.5 ft behind the grip (this is the butt’s center of mass), while the weight of the rod is a point load at 2.5 ft ahead of the grip.
Tip heaviness (“T”) is calculated as the difference in opposing torques supplied by the acting of gravity on the butt and rod segments. The equations for both pieces of lumber are the same, only the butt and rod masses are different.
2x2:
T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)
T = (m x 5 x 2.5) – (m x 3 x 1.5)
T = 12.5m – 4.5m = 8m
2x4:
T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)
T = (2m x 5 x 2.5) – (2m x 3 x 1.5)
T = 25m – 9m = 16m
Is it surprising that the tip heaviness of the 2x4 is twice that of the 2x2, given that their balance points are identical? Is there any reason that the same physical concepts shouldn’t apply to fishing rods?
No its not surprising at all. An unblalanced heavy tip heavy rod will require more effort to lift the tip than a light weight tip heavy rod. It would be beneficial for both rods to have their center of gravity near the fulcrum point (reel seat) irregardless of total weight. This is why both light weight and balance are desirable properties in rods. You can't always have both. If the rod is going to be on the heavy side the I want it to balance out as close to the reel seat without a reel mounted. My gen 1 Orochi Perfect Pitch is this way. Fairly heavy but very well balanced and a breeze to walk frogs on all day. If a rod is going to be really light weight then I can tolerate it balancing out a ways from the reel seat knowing that once a reel is fitted it will no longer feel tip heavy.
Way north bass guy reply :
Man what a thread! It just took me 15 min to read all of this and it’s some darn good reading ????. My opinion of rod balance is that it doesn’t seem to matter much ( at least for me). Seems like a very slight difference one way or the other isn’t going to make or break whether or not I use a rod, and like someone mentioned earlier, if I’m running tip down while spinnerbaiting etc, or tip way up while working a worm, it changes a lot. Even with the same rod I can be doing different casts/retrieves back to back so it doesn’t matter much to me. Maybe this is just coming from a guy that has a 3lb stone hammer in his hands for most of the work week, makes a fishing rod feel like a feather, no matter what the balance point is ????.
The Maestro reply :
My first "decent" rod was a Bass Pro Extreme spinning rod that could be balanced with a kit sold separately. I bought the kit and added some of the weights to balance it and I have to admit it does feel nice but I've not given any consideration to the balance of any of my setups since then. I don't think it's hampered me or effected my fishing in any way.
Team9nine reply :
~1990 TD Cochran 6' Topwater rod (4.9 oz)
~1990 TD1Hi reel (9.7 oz)
As for thoughts on balance, I've tested all my setups with a large Excel file of weights, measures and ratios to back it all up - 
;
- For the way I hold my rods, for me it simply boils down to the better the balance point to length ratio (of just the rod), the better that rod will feel to me and fish regardless of which reel I put on it, that reels weight, or technique used for, and
- I never add any extra weight (to the rod) to "balance" my outfits, regardless. I'd rather sell or trade a rod off to get something "better" balanced than I would add weight, or just live with it the way it is.
Heartland reply :
It puts the reel on the rod and casts the bait.....I never think of it.
CrankFate reply :
Custom Kistler Magnesium with Shimano Aldebaran. Weighs about 8.6oz total. Still never been fished ⛄
jbsoonerfan reply :
I'm noticing a trend in this thread.
MrSmitty reply :
Have no idea of total weight, just wanted to show off new Dobyn's 736 CB Glass with Lew's Tournament Pro!
ResoKP reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 6:53 AM, MN Fisher said:Oh why not - all my rigs balance around the same point. Here's a shot of my Finesse rig.
Thank you for the pic! I WISH my finesse rig balanced there. Currently, I am using St. Croix Avid X 6'9" ML/XF with Shimano Sahara FI 1000 and here's where the rod tips forward:
I like the rod and reel on their own... but together... I failed... I think I can find a better pairing. At the time I bought it, I just wanted a "light" combo and didn't think much in the balance aspect.
This being a popular rod, and seeing it recommended a lot, if anyone else is considering this rod, I think a 2500 size or bigger reel would be more pleasant to use rather than a 1000 reel.
MN Fisher reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 10:26 AM, ResoKP said:I WISH my finesse rig balanced there.
I lucked out with this, bought the rig as a combo. Used it last year and was pleasantly surprised at the quality...Mitchell did good with this one.
ResoKP reply :
Okay, so the practical difference would be that with MN Fisher's combo, I can hold the rod with 2 fingers behind the reel foot whereas with my combo, I would need to have all 4 fingers infront of the reel foot in order to experience the same balance feel.
MN Fisher reply :
In my experience - comparing older rigs that balanced further forward that I've retired to the newer ones. The difference in stress applied might only be a few ounces, but over a day of fishing those few ounces 'add up'. One of the reasons I upgraded all my rigs was for better balance as my wrist was less tired after a day of fishing with the better balanced rigs.
It might not make much difference to you...but to my aged muscles it makes all the difference.
punch reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 9:19 AM, MrSmitty said:Have no idea of total weight, just wanted to show off new Dobyn's 736 CB Glass with Lew's Tournament Pro!
I really want to try the new LFS Tournament Pro.. dang monkey.
Glaucus reply :
On 3/29/2019 at 6:34 AM, Glaucus said:I've never checked where my combos balance just like I don't check or compare the weights of rods and reels. Only in special cases for specific people could I ever see it mattering. Like who cares if one rod is 3.8oz and the other is 4.2oz. Who cares if one reel is 7.6oz and the other is 7.8oz. Who cares where I have to place my finger to balance a setup.
On 3/29/2019 at 11:27 AM, MN Fisher said:In my experience - comparing older rigs that balanced further forward that I've retired to the newer ones. The difference in stress applied might only be a few ounces, but over a day of fishing those few ounces 'add up'. One of the reasons I upgraded all my rigs was for better balance as my wrist was less tired after a day of fishing with the better balanced rigs.
It might not make much difference to you...but to my aged muscles it makes all the difference.
Cases like yours is what I had in mind. Age, arthritis, disability of some sort, etc.
Glenn reply :
And scene...
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