Rod Sensitivity 2024
papajoe222 reply :
I had this debate with a fellow club member . He claimed that, given the same components, Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time. I disagreed saying that the tip is where a bite is 'transmitted' to the rod.He asked me why I hold the line in front of my casting reel when I worm and jig fish and I told him because there are times when the bite isn't transmitted by the rod, but I can sometimes feel it through the line. He says that doesn't happen with a spinning rod.
Your thoughts, or opinions.
MickD reply :
I agree with you, it's at the tip where the bite is transmitted, and it doesn't matter whether the rod is a spin or cast.
Blanks can be wrapped into casting or spin rods. Assume two identical blanks, one built as spin, one as cast. Same weight in the tip section since both are wrapped with the same guides, which, like the blank , can't tell whether they are on a casting or spin rod. Same for the identical tiptop on each rod. So you have the line contacting both rods identically at the tiptop, both rods same mass, same action, same power, same weight, same blank material. The only difference between the two setups is that one has the guides on top, one on the bottom. Line is contacting the same tiptops on both rods, then the same guides on both rods.
The difference is going to be essentially nothing.
Darren. reply :
I've heard that argument, too.
S'pose it's a 6 and 1/2 dozen the other argument.
MickD reply :
A bite will be transmitted through the line the same for cast and spin, the only difference being that it is a little less handy to feel the line on a spin outfit. Line is line. Pull on one end, feel it on the other.
J.Vincent reply :
Fishing line is never in contact with all the guides at one time, because of angle and wind. Take for example a 1/4oz Texas Rigged Worm on 10lb line; with a slight bow in the line and the rod pointed between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock; when that fish inhales a plastic worm, the first transmission of sensitivity is from the line itself, that travels all the way to the next point of contact which is the rod tip and then down the blank. So I agree with PapaJoe222, the rod tip is the first point of contact between lure and rod, therefore Spinning rods aren't more sensitive due to Line being in contact with all the guides. If Spinning rods are more sensitive at times it's most likely because of the lighter line and the grip. Just my 2 cents
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
The purpose of the guides is to distribute stress along the length of the rod to harness its power. On a spinning rod they tame coils to aid casting. The only way guides aid sensitivity is by using the lightest ones possible in a given application.
Brad in Texas reply :
Agreed regarding the tip being the primary point where a first transmission of the bite originates, this, for both casting and spinning rods.
But, I suppose and can't know for certain, that if one holds a spinning rod as it is intended to be held (fingers split forward and back of the reel support arm), that it is a superior hand set-up position better positioned to feel a tiny vibration.
I suppose it depends on how one holds a casting reel, for sure, but hand up straddling the reel top wouldn't appear to be as positioned for "feel" as the forward finger of a spinning rod sort of balancing on it. There are few things on our bodies more tactile than an index finger.
In any case, a point to ponder, but a really, really small one as regards on the water results I suspect.
Brad
jbrew73 reply :
It doesn’t matter which is more sensitive. Real bass fisherman wouldn’t be caught using fairy wands.
is this a trick question? 
Catt reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 9:32 AM, papajoe222 said:Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time
Because of the size of the guides on spinning rods the line is also farther away from the rod which dampens the "sensitivity".
A-Jay reply :
I've almost always been my contention that 'guide sensitivity' was more hype than anything else.
However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.
After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.
A-Jay
PatrickKnight reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 7:54 PM, A-Jay said:I've almost always been my contention that 'guide sensitivity' was more hype than anything else.
However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.
After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.
A-Jay
Those AGS guides are the real deal!!
I always feel my spinning rods are more sensitive because I buy higher end spinning rods than I do casting.
I think sensitivity is such a personal thing that once you get to a certain level of rod its more in your head than in your hand.
Catt reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 9:56 PM, PatrickKnight said:I think sensitivity is such a personal thing that once you get to a certain level of rod its more in your head than in your hand.
Yes Sir!
I work with a lot of top quality sound equipment & that statement applies!
CrankFate reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 9:32 AM, papajoe222 said:I had this debate with a fellow club member . He claimed that, given the same components, Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time. I disagreed saying that the tip is where a bite is 'transmitted' to the rod.He asked me why I hold the line in front of my casting reel when I worm and jig fish and I told him because there are times when the bite isn't transmitted by the rod, but I can sometimes feel it through the line. He says that doesn't happen with a spinning rod.
Your thoughts, or opinions.
I do not agree. Spinning rods are less sensitive, usually. But sensitivity comes from the stiffness of the line (braid v mono v fluoro) and from stiffness of the rod. The lighter and stiffer a rod, the more sensitive. A rod with an extremely stiff tip and made of light, rigid material (graphite) will be most sensitive. IMO, now that we have braid a lot of rods are too sensitive. Most casting rods are more stiff and rigid than most spinning rods.
Yumeya reply :
I have a NRX 852 Casting and a NRX 852 Spinning, they are both super sensitive and I think they are
equal.
MickD reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 7:22 PM, Catt said:
Because of the size of the guides on spinning rods the line is also farther away from the rod which dampens the "sensitivity".
Show me your data. :-)
Arcs&sparks reply :
On 7/16/2018 at 7:54 PM, A-Jay said:However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.
After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.
I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides. Do you know why this is the case?
Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer, and why I’m confused lol.
Logan S reply :
What about a casting rod with spiral wrapped guides? Ultimate sensitivity? ????
Team9nine reply :
On 7/17/2018 at 7:32 AM, Arcs&sparks said:I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides. Do you know why this is the case?
Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer, and why I’m confused lol.
CrankFate nailed it - stiffness and weight. Carbon fiber offers a superior stiffness to weight ratio compared to metal, which results in better sensitivity.
A-Jay reply :
On 7/17/2018 at 7:32 AM, Arcs&sparks said:I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides. Do you know why this is the case?
Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer, and why I’m confused lol.
Buy one and see for yourself.
A-Jay
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
Carbon fiber guides are light weight making a sensitive rod. Little if any feedback travels through a guide frame to the blank though.
Stephen B reply :
On 7/17/2018 at 10:50 AM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:Carbon fiber guides are light weight making a sensitive rod. Little if any feedback travels through a guide frame to the blank though.
If that is true, then how does sensitivity actually travel to the blank? It can't be 100% through the line as a NRX is noticeable more sensitivity than an E6X with the same reel, line, etc. It would somehow have to be a combination of through the line, and from the guide to the blank itself. But I am unsure as this is just a theory. I'm all ears.
Boomstick reply :
I agree with you. Also, I would think the larger guides of a spinning rod which are more designed to handle the line movement when reeling would make a spinning rod less sensitive -- whether that's noticeable is another debate.
Also, if you were wrong, why is the action of the rod (the flex of the tip) the most important rod attribute when selecting a more sensitive rod? Because detecting bites is largely in the tip!
grub_man reply :
Stephen B,
The type of sensitivity that we are all talking about I like to call 'feel-the-bite' sensitivity. It is essentially how well a rod transfers signals in the line to the rod. The signals that we are feeling for are changes in tension of the line. If you have hands large enough to palm your reels and keep direct contact with the line, then more power to you. I have small hands, so that doesn't work well for me.
In order to get the changes in tension to the rod, you want your line to be at a 90˚ angle to the rod tip. This will be the angle that results in the most movement of the rod tip for the force applied. This is why we fish 'feel' baits with the rod held around the 2 o'clock position. When you feel things in your rod, you are feeling impulses (small changes in the motion of the rod tip). As your lure is moving, changes in its motion result in changes in the tension of the line. The line will then pul the tip down ever so slightly and then the rod reacts and tries to rebound. It is these small changes that you feel.
As mentioned, the stiffness to weight ratio is the property most closely related to the sensitivity of a rod. Over the years rods have been made from different types of wood, metal, fiberglass, and carbon fiber. Each of these materials has different elastic properties, i.e. different stiffness to weigh ratios. You can build rods with identical powers and actions with any of these materials. The most sensitive ones will be the lightest. The NRX is more sensitive than the E6X because the material in the NRX is higher modulus meaning that the fibers are stiffer and lighter than those used in the E6X material (or a lower density resin is used).
I know this is an abbreviated explanation, but I hope it helps. If you have more questions, I'll be glad to help clarify some things or go into more detail.
Stephen B reply :
On 7/17/2018 at 11:20 PM, grub_man said:Stephen B,
The type of sensitivity that we are all talking about I like to call 'feel-the-bite' sensitivity. It is essentially how well a rod transfers signals in the line to the rod. The signals that we are feeling for are changes in tension of the line. If you have hands large enough to palm your reels and keep direct contact with the line, then more power to you. I have small hands, so that doesn't work well for me.
In order to get the changes in tension to the rod, you want your line to be at a 90˚ angle to the rod tip. This will be the angle that results in the most movement of the rod tip for the force applied. This is why we fish 'feel' baits with the rod held around the 2 o'clock position. When you feel things in your rod, you are feeling impulses (small changes in the motion of the rod tip). As your lure is moving, changes in its motion result in changes in the tension of the line. The line will then pul the tip down ever so slightly and then the rod reacts and tries to rebound. It is these small changes that you feel.
As mentioned, the stiffness to weight ratio is the property most closely related to the sensitivity of a rod. Over the years rods have been made from different types of wood, metal, fiberglass, and carbon fiber. Each of these materials has different elastic properties, i.e. different stiffness to weigh ratios. You can build rods with identical powers and actions with any of these materials. The most sensitive ones will be the lightest. The NRX is more sensitive than the E6X because the material in the NRX is higher modulus meaning that the fibers are stiffer and lighter than those used in the E6X material (or a lower density resin is used).
I know this is an abbreviated explanation, but I hope it helps. If you have more questions, I'll be glad to help clarify some things or go into more detail.
Thanks! That make sense.
Junger reply :
This debate comes up so much, you'd think there would be some way of standardizing a sensitivity test at this point.
Stephen B reply :
On 7/18/2018 at 2:42 AM, Junger said:This debate comes up so much, you'd think there would be some way of standardizing a sensitivity test at this point.
I definitely agree with Junger.
My one question would be that if the line is in contact with the tip top with the guide insert wouldn't a harder material such as a Torzite isnert trasmit more sensitivity as it would be a harder material than SIC or Alconite?
Paul Roberts reply :
Agree with you. Both spinning and casting rigs could be equally sensitive. I think you are correct saying that detection tension starts in line, then to the rod tip, then on down to the rod handle. Can't see it being any other way. I did a video on rods -what makes a rod t hat can FISH-and discussed sensitivity. In it I have a slo-mo clip of a strike... coming down the pipe.
Team9nine reply :
Just to throw this into the mix for discussion, the one semi-valid argument I've heard for spinning being more sensitive, is that the weight of the reel naturally sits underneath the rod allowing you to lightly hold the rod more with your fingers and fingertips, as opposed to a bait caster, where keeping the reel on top requires either palming or more of a hand held "clamp" that uses larger muscles that aren't as sensitive. Just a theory, but I have to admit I have a spinning outfit that I can just about feel fish fart on my line as it's passing near them ????
OkobojiEagle reply :
On 7/18/2018 at 7:22 AM, Team9nine said:Just to throw this into the mix for discussion, the one semi-valid argument I've heard for spinning being more sensitive, is that the weight of the reel naturally sits underneath the rod allowing you to lightly hold the rod more with your fingers and fingertips, as opposed to a bait caster, where keeping the reel on top requires either palming or more of a hand held "clamp" that uses larger muscles that aren't as sensitive. Just a theory, but I have to admit I have a spinning outfit that I can just about feel fish fart on my line as it's passing near them ????
I would argue with you about this theory being "semi-valid"...
oe
Team9nine reply :
On 7/18/2018 at 8:21 AM, OkobojiEagle said:I would argue with you about this theory being "semi-valid"...
oe
Let's hear it 
I've heard the theory mentioned by some, and there is enough science that I can see where the argument for it comes from. Curious to hear opinions on it one way or the other.
cueball reply :
Another source of sensitivity is the through the reel. On a casting reel the line tightens and you feel a pulse transmitted by the spool shaft. Similarly on a spinning reel, when the line tightens you feel a pulse through the line roller.
One reason fishing is so fun is all of the subjective topics that have no absolute answers.
OkobojiEagle reply :
On 7/18/2018 at 8:41 AM, Team9nine said:Let's hear it
My position is, and has been, this theory is completely valid. I also hold the belief that Fireline is braided and remains the best behaved fishing line for spinning reels, and that color preference by bass is a function of visibility against the visual background, but I got tired of arguing about it years ago...
oe
grub_man reply :
Now on to the next bit about sensitivity. A rod blank is most sensitive in its raw form, i.e. before reel seats, grips, guides, etc., because inertia is the enemy of sensitivity. The more mass that gets added to the blank and how it is distributed will affect the sensitivity. This is why the trend toward split grips, no fore grips and micro guides has happened. These things will reduce the mass of the rod and more importantly its moment of inertia, effectively limiting the loss in sensitivity.
As far as spinning vs casting being more sensitive, rods on identical blanks with identical handles and equal weights, the casting rod should be ever so slightly more sensitive due to the fact that it has a lighter guide train with less mass toward the tip. The problem is that casting and spinning rods are not made of identical parts. Casting rods typically use a more massive reel seat. Spinning rods have more massive guide trains.
I will say that spinning rods that ditch the reel seat all together are significantly more sensitive than those with a traditional pipe style reel seat. Ditching the reel seat can save an ounce or more in total build weight depending on the design of the TN handle.
When it comes to objectively measuring sensitivity, I've exchanged messages at length with a guy who was a retired instrumentation engineer and used strain gauges to measure 'sensitivity'. The problem is that is tough to quantify, and the measurements are sensitive to how you set up your measurements and a number of other things. That said, I've heard through a third party that one of the major players in rod blanks has been consulting with a seismologist and possibly others on performing sensitivity measurements. Whether any of that info will make it into the public domain, only time will tell.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 12:46 AM, grub_man said:I will say that spinning rods that ditch the reel seat all together are significantly more sensitive than those with a traditional pipe style reel seat. Ditching the reel seat can save an ounce or more in total build weight depending on the design of the TN handle.
The most sensitive rod I have BY FAR is a 30 year old original Lew's spinning rod with a graphite Tennessee handle. I think the handle amplifies the vibrations but there could be other explanations.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 7/18/2018 at 7:22 AM, Team9nine said:Just to throw this into the mix for discussion, the one semi-valid argument I've heard for spinning being more sensitive, is that the weight of the reel naturally sits underneath the rod allowing you to lightly hold the rod more with your fingers and fingertips, as opposed to a bait caster, where keeping the reel on top requires either palming or more of a hand held "clamp" that uses larger muscles that aren't as sensitive. Just a theory, but I have to admit I have a spinning outfit that I can just about feel fish fart on my line as it's passing near them ????
Hmmmm... that could be. Comparing spinning to casting would require the same mass, line diam, and lure, though. I think my most sensitive rods are my UL to L spinning rods. They are also the lightest rigs I own, and use the finest lines. My most sensitive casting rigs are the lightest ones, with the right lines; They are most easily moved by tension from the fish. Not sure my MH spinning rigs are any more sensitive than my M/MH casting rigs. Again, "not sure". Which might just be saying something akin to "semi-valid"?
WRB reply :
I have only been bass fishing for about 65 years and have always detected strikes using my finger tips in lieu of relying on rod "sensitivity", whatever that is.
Boron, graphite high modulus rods have been around since the 70's and just as "sensitive" as today's light weight high modulus bass rods. The rods today will be looked at as ancient as rods 25 years ago in a decade, yet you will need your finger tips and eyes to detect strikes.
Tom
Stephen B reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 9:11 AM, WRB said:I have only been bass fishing for about 65 years and have always detected strikes using my finger tips in lieu of relying on rod "sensitivity", whatever that is.
Boron, graphite high modulus rods have been around since the 70's and just as "sensitive" as today's light weight high modulus bass rods. The rods today will be looked at as ancient as rods 25 years ago in a decade, yet you will need your finger tips and eyes to detect strikes.
Tom
Your method is where the problem is underlying. For example, often bass just pick up the bait for a brief second (95% of the time undetected when they just briefly pick it up whether your holding the line or not) thus not only will you likely not feel it and also you won't see the line jump. Another issue is a lot of people don't have large enough hands to palm the reel and put there finger on the line. Also, braided line and floruocarbon have evolved a long way since the 70s along with the rods, so I'm sure equipment is much easier to detect strikes.
WRB reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 9:51 AM, Stephen B said:Your method is where the problem is underlying. For example, often bass just pick up the bait for a brief second (95% of the time undetected when they just briefly pick it up whether your holding the line or not) thus not only will you likely not feel it and also you won't see the line jump. Another issue is a lot of people don't have large enough hands to palm the reel and put there finger on the line. Also, braided line and floruocarbon have evolved a long way since the 70s along with the rods, so I'm sure equipment is much easier to detect strikes.
I managed to detect jig strikes at 40 yards in 20'+ deep back in '71 catching my PB 12 lb 3 oz NLMB using mono line and over 300 DD LMB using mono line including the 5 top FLMB all caught on jigs at over 30 yards and depth between 15' to 20' on jigs, the 18.6 lb in 1981' the 4 others in the early 90's on Berkley Big Game 10 lb and 12 lb mono including my PB FLMB 19.3 lbs.
My strike detection technique is second to none. I run the line over my index finger tip and under the thumb pad, you can't effectively do that palming a reel, I use a small fore grip and don't hold the rod blank.
Anytime anyone wants to challenge my strike detection give it try, I am 75 years young now and don't miss many jig strikes.
Tom
Stephen B reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 10:46 AM, WRB said:I managed to detect jig strikes at 40 yards in 20'+ deep back in '71 catching my PB 12 lb 3 oz NLMB using mono line and over 300 DD LMB using mono line including the 5 top FLMB all caught on jigs at over 30 yards and depth between 15' to 20' on jigs, the 18.6 lb in 1981' the 4 others in the early 90's on Berkley Big Game 10 lb and 12 lb mono.
My strike detection technique is second to none. I run the line over my index finger tip and under the thumb pad, you can't effectively do that palming a reel, I use a small fore grip and don't hold the rod blank.
Anytime anyone wants to challenge my strike detection give it try, I am 75 years young now and don't miss many jig strikes.
Tom
I don't doubt your strike detection as I have no reason to. But I'm not convinced your strike detection using rods from the 70s as you stated would compete with someone (even yourself) using a NRX with flouro or braid. That's all I'm saying.
The equipment (rods,reels, line, etc) is amazing nowadays.
Catt reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 10:46 AM, WRB said:My strike detection technique is second to none. I run the line over my index finger tip and under the thumb pad, you can't effectively do that palming a reel, I use a small fore grip and don't hold the rod blank.
That's exactly what my grandson Aiden does!
He's got a few more be fish to go ????
WRB reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 10:52 AM, Stephen B said:I don't doubt your strike detection as I have no reason to. But I'm not convinced your strike detection using rods from the 70s as you stated would compete with someone (even yourself) using a NRX with flouro or braid. That's all I'm saying.
The equipment (rods,reels, electronics, line, etc) is amazing nowadays.
You would be wrong!
I have always used state of the art custom biuld rods since the 70's, technology helps but if you don't develop safe cracker finger tip touch skills you will miss a majority of the big bass nearly undetectable jig strikes.
Keeping in touch is a critical jig fishing skill and few anglers ever developed it. No rod can feel a strike, they only dampen line movement and the line movement is what you feel. Rods are not a tunning fork that resonate vibrations.
Do you think bass were easier to catch in the 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's then today?
Tom
Stephen B reply :
Haha. State of the art 70s will not compete with 2018 rods. I'm not going to argue as life is too short. You can think whatever you want.
WRB reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 11:14 AM, Stephen B said:Haha. State of the art 70s will not compete with 2018 rods. I'm not going to argue as life is too short. You can think whatever you want.
It's not the rod, that is my point you are missing.
Cheers,
Tom
Stephen B reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 11:28 AM, WRB said:It's not the rod, that is my point you are missing.
Cheers,
Tom
You have missed my point as well. I understand you are claiming to detect your strikes via holding a monofilament line and watching the line.
I am saying rods, reels, line, everything has improved. Thus, if you utilize your claimed technique to detect strikes with modern high end equipment (NRX,K2, etc with a fluorocarbon or braided line) then your detection will be that much better. As you have now enhanced two different components with a more sensitive line and a better blank. Goodluck!
WRB reply :
The rods I use are state of the art superior, IMO, to NRX the past 5 years and used Sunline Shooter FC in the late 90's to 2017 and also fished with my partners NRX rods and have first hand experience with them, good rods but not any better then what I have used in the past or today.
FC line offers good feed back due to less coefficient of drag in the water then premium mono, however poor knot and abrasion resistance in comparison and prone to fail at random times.
We are discussing rod sensitivity and what I am telling you is don't rely on the rod to detect strikes. Does a well balanced state of the rod help?, yes but only if the angler has the skills to interpret what the lure is doing.
Would I have caught more giant bass using today's state of the art rods and reels....I dought it based on the past 10 years. Do I enjoy using light weight rods the past 5 years, yes. is strike detection any better no! Have I caught any giant bass over15 lbs using FC line and jigs with light weight state of the art rods...no, the giant bass are no longer live in the lakes I fish but I catch lots of 8 lb to 9 lb bass.
Tom
jbrew73 reply :
Well I’m glad that it’s finally settled. .........Stay tuned until icast 2019, Toms fingers are being cloned as we speak. They will be available in all sizes and colors. Guaranteed to catch DD bass or your money back! ????
Team9nine reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 10:46 AM, WRB said:
My strike detection technique is second to none. I run the line over my index finger tip and under the thumb pad, you can't effectively do that palming a reel, I use a small fore grip and don't hold the rod blank.
Anytime anyone wants to challenge my strike detection give it try, I am 75 years young now and don't miss many jig strikes.
Tom
Tom - similar to this?
Gary Klein was the first pro I saw fish this way when worm or jig fishing (late 70s/early 80s). Hank also seemed to have that same (or similar) style.
Catt reply :
I've owned
Fenwick's Lunkerstick™, Kunnan's Kunnan Stik, Original Falcon Carolina Lizard Dragger, even a couple Boron rods.
We're they as sensitive as today's rods?
How does one measure that ????
MickD reply :
One thing to keep in mind is that if the rod is pointed at the lure, as in bonefishing with flies, it's out of the sensitivity "equation." Then it's all about the line. Logically, the closer you point the rod at the lure, the less its characteristics will affect sensitivity. When fishing with the tip high, then that is when the rod's characteristics will most affect sensitivity (along with the line).
Seems like we should shut our computers down and go fishing. ????
Tennessee Boy reply :
This is a very interesting discussion. The importance of rod sensitivity is something I've thought a lot about and honestly it's something I'm not sure about any more. Here are some random thoughts on both sides of the sensitivity argument that I would love to hear your comments on.
1) When it comes to detecting bites, familarity with your tackle is more important than the tackle you use. When I was a kid, I averaged probably 15 hours a week during the summers fishing creeks. I always used the same cheap rod, reel, and line and 95% of the time the same crankbait. It was like I had a camera on my lure when it came to detecting strikes or when the lure hit something. It wasn't superior equipment, it was the fact that I was so in tune with the feel of the cheap equipment I was using.
2) Fishing rods are pretty simple. You can get a quality rod with the desired length and action for under $100. The only way a company can justify charging hundreds of dollars for a rod is to sell it's sensitivity. So companies put a lot of marketing money in to pushing the importance of rod sensitivity and the superiority of there rods.
3) Feeling what's happening to your lure through your line and rod reminds me of something many of us old guy did as kids before texting and cell phones. We tied string to two cans and talked through them. It's amazing how well this works. The can was critical in this set up. You could not hear what the other person was saying by feeling the line with your fingers. Does a fishing rod serve the same purpose as the can in amplifying the vibrations coming through the line?
4) About 40 years ago, I was in a tackle store with a buddy of mine when he showed me how to test the sensitivity of a rod. He would lightly drag the tip of the rod across the floor to feel the texture of the floor tiles. I was amazed at how well you could feel the floor through the rod. I was convenced that I could tell a difference between the cheap rods and the more expensive rods. I few years ago, I was in Bass Pro Shops and I had a friend hand me random rods to see if I could pick out the better rods using this test. I completely failed this test. I couldn't even tell the difference between the graphite and fiberglass rods. Was it all in my head before? Are all rods equally sensitive now? Am I just getting old and can't tell the difference any more?
Catt reply :
Sensitivity strarts in the hands & continues up to the brain.
I've fished everything from Fenwick's first graphite to the top of the line G. Loomis. I currently fish Shimano Crucial which I find every bit as sensitive as any.
Let me explain it this way!
I could put any high end reel on any high end rod, spool it with braid for maximum sensitivity, tie on a Texas rig & then give it to my wife.
She could not "feel" any difference if I had rigged it up on a Berkley Lightening rod!
Why? Cause what is transmitted up the line, down the rod, through the hands will be lost in the brain.
She doesn't fish & would not be able to interpret what she is feeling.
Even for the average angler a certain amount of "sensitivity" is lost in the brain.
WRB reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 8:27 PM, Team9nine said:Tom - similar to this?
Gary Klein was the first pro I saw fish this way when worm or jig fishing (late 70s/early 80s). Hank also seemed to have that same (or similar) style.
Yes. Gary Klein still fishes the same way watching MLF events he participates in. I also point the rod tip at the jig as much as possible when retreiving jigs on a long cast to reduce the slack in the line and time to make an instant reel set and rod sweep hook set. Worms I like a higher rod tip to shake the line more and usually have more time to get a good hook set.
My first graphite rod was a Fenwick HMG in '71 followed a Lamiglas in '73, Phenix boron in around '78 and back to custom Lamiglas rods from '79 to 2012 when they stopped making them and went to ALX with Lamiglas blanks I use today.
Tom
WRB reply :
A little history about graphite rods, Fenwick was the 1st to offer them for bass fishing.
Gary Loomis solved the problem with graphite rod failures and worked with Lamiglas to design thier early graphite rods.
Before Fenwick was bought by Pure Fishing they came out with the Tachna AVC rod series that was $300+ price point in the mid 90's and the forerunner of today's light weight rods before production went off shore. Find a Fenwick AVC 70MHF in good condition on eBay under $100 for a good budget jig/worm rod today.
Phenix was a west coast state of the art rod builder and thier boron rods were very popular before they went out of business for reasons unrelated to the rod business.
I am very familiar with state of the art rods and sensitivity is a subjective topic as it differs with every angler. I watch angler tap the rod tips on the floor when checking sensitivity or put the rod to their ear and flick it with a finger nail, what they thinking is anyone's guess.
Tom
Junger reply :
I think they should put rods in the Large Hadron Collider to finally put this debate to rest.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 7/20/2018 at 1:11 AM, Junger said:I think they should put rods in the Large Hadron Collider to finally put this debate to rest.
I'd pay $600 for a rod tested in the Large Hadron Collider... I mean it would have to be better... right?
papajoe222 reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 10:21 PM, Tennessee Boy said:1) When it comes to detecting bites, familarity with your tackle is more important than the tackle you use. When I was a kid, I averaged probably 15 hours a week during the summers fishing creeks. I always used the same cheap rod, reel, and line and 95% of the time the same crankbait. It was like I had a camera on my lure when it came to detecting strikes or when the lure hit something. It wasn't superior equipment, it was the fact that I was so in tune with the feel of the cheap equipment I was using.
I don’t know if familiarity is more important than the tackle used, but I will be the first to admit that the ‘sensitivity factor’ seems to multiply when using familiar equipment/presentations. 90% of my cranking is done using one combo and the majority of the time use one brand/model of crank. I swear I can feel a fish following that crank. If I switch to a different crank, I have difficulty feeling when it is beginning to contact vegetation and often will crank it down into the weeds. It may take me an hour to get in tune with that bait and combo and I know the rod didn’t loose sensitivity, I lost concentration.
jbrew73 reply :
The opinion expressed below is based on my personal gear, hands and techniques. Your experience may differ and you are welcome to your opinion just as I am.
If you use or have to use your fingers on the line to detect strikes you should trade in your 1970 fiberglass rods and trilene mono for some modern gear or work on your rod holding technique.
I played around this afternoon letting bluegills nibble on a plastic worm. There is no way in hell that fingering the line equates to better strike detection when using modern moderately priced gear. Maybe back in the day when lesser quality gear was available this technique helped but not with today’s equipment. I strongly believe how you hold the rod and the tightness / looseness of your grip are key factors to knowing what’s happening at the other end of your line. All this said, spinning rods might be able to detect strikes better ( more “sensitive “)do to the way they are held but I don’t use spinning rod enough to have a solid opinion on it.
I was was taught to fish with my finger on the line so I am familiar with this technique but it has no place in my fishing Arsenal in 2018.
BigAngus752 reply :
On 7/17/2018 at 7:32 AM, Arcs&sparks said:I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides. Do you know why this is the case?
Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer, and why I’m confused lol.
On 7/18/2018 at 2:53 AM, Stephen B said:I definitely agree with Junger.
My one question would be that if the line is in contact with the tip top with the guide insert wouldn't a harder material such as a Torzite isnert trasmit more sensitivity as it would be a harder material than SIC or Alconite?
I am not a highly experienced fisherman so I can't speak to the "feel" as the many experts on here can, but I've been a gunsmith for 20 years and, based on that experience, I can speak to some of the materials that are being discussed.
These are some simplified general rules. As you get lighter and lighter (aluminum, titanium, scandium) there are fewer electrons in the outer shell of the atom and the shell is wider, thus you can pack fewer atoms into the same amount of space. Why is this important to a gun owner? The lighter the metal, the less it will readily accept and hold lubricant. Steel holds lube easily. Aluminum less; titanium much less, scandium? - forget about it.
Steel packs more atoms into the same space as titanium, thus it weighs more and has different characteristics. Steel is generally 5% stronger but titanium is about 40% lighter. Steel is stronger but titanium is more thermally stable. This also applies to the materials ability to transmit vibrations. The more atoms packed into the same amount of space the more interruptions (damping) there are for the waves of energy (vibration) passing through the material.
I would suggest that rather than thinking of a material as "harder" or "lighter", think of it in terms of the number of atoms that are packed into a specific area and understand that less damping occurs with those materials that have fewer atoms in that space. You SHOULD be able to "feel more vibrations" being transmitted through AGS guides than "less rigid" materials.
Stephen B reply :
On 7/21/2018 at 9:46 AM, BigAngus752 said:
I am not a highly experienced fisherman so I can't speak to the "feel" as the many experts on here can, but I've been a gunsmith for 20 years and, based on that experience, I can speak to some of the materials that are being discussed.
These are some simplified general rules. As you get lighter and lighter (aluminum, titanium, scandium) there are fewer electrons in the outer shell of the atom and the shell is wider, thus you can pack fewer atoms into the same amount of space. Why is this important to a gun owner? The lighter the metal, the less it will readily accept and hold lubricant. Steel holds lube easily. Aluminum less; titanium much less, scandium? - forget about it.
Steel packs more atoms into the same space as titanium, thus it weighs more and has different characteristics. Steel is generally 5% stronger but titanium is about 40% lighter. Steel is stronger but titanium is more thermally stable. This also applies to the materials ability to transmit vibrations. The more atoms packed into the same amount of space the more interruptions (damping) there are for the waves of energy (vibration) passing through the material.
I would suggest that rather than thinking of a material as "harder" or "lighter", think of it in terms of the number of atoms that are packed into a specific area and understand that less damping occurs with those materials that have fewer atoms in that space. You SHOULD be able to "feel more vibrations" being transmitted through AGS guides than "less rigid" materials.
Awesome. Interesting to see the scientific side of things.
BigAngus752 reply :
On 7/21/2018 at 9:48 AM, Stephen B said:Awesome. Interesting to see the scientific side of things.
Well don't be too impressed. I'm just regurgitating information I've received going to classes and seminars put on by many major gun manufacturers over the past 20 years. But I've met some incredibly smart engineers, machinists and metallurgists!
Stephen B reply :
On 7/21/2018 at 10:12 AM, BigAngus752 said:Well don't be too impressed. I'm just regurgitating information I've received going to classes and seminars put on by many major gun manufacturers over the past 20 years. But I've met some incredibly smart engineers, machinists and metallurgists!
I just like things back by science, math, engineering, etc. While fishing does have information that can be backed and confirmed by science and others, a lot is heresay and opinions. An example of this is what the entire thread was started for in that measuring sensitivity of a rod. I may have missed it but when rods are able to be independently tested via a independent company by a sensitivity measuring device and labeled will be a amazing step forward in the sport of fishing for consumers.. That would be extremely interesting.
Todd2 reply :
On 7/19/2018 at 8:27 PM, Team9nine said:Tom - similar to this?
Gary Klein was the first pro I saw fish this way when worm or jig fishing (late 70s/early 80s). Hank also seemed to have that same (or similar) style.
This is exactly how I fish jigs and plastics on BC. Line between thumb and index finger. BTW, the index finger and middle finger are both on the blank (opposite sides) also so I really do know where the sensation is coming from, I just know when I feel anything, I reel down and swing.
Choporoz reply :
When fishing bottom contact and very slow moving plastics, I first detect many bites in the tips of my fingers holding the reel handle. This means for me that the line, the rod and even the reel all play a big part. If the spool is tight, or the knob bearings are dirty, overall sensitivity is affected...at least for me.
As the picture of Gary Klein above illustrates, your bite detection can/will be affected by how the reel and the rod handles feel for you. One big reason to handle rods with a reel attached before deciding on a purchase.
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