Why Faster Bearings? 2024
chelboed reply :
I'm trying to wrap my mind around this for a second. If we're coming up with more effective brakes...what's the point of putting faster bearings in a reel? Won't you just need to turn up you're centrifugal or magnetic brakes even more?
Example: My reel generally sits at around 5 on the mag brake. Why would I want an even potentially faster free'er spool?
So those of you who shelled out $45 for ceramic Boca ABEC 7's...why didn't you just turn your cast control / spool tension down?
What kind if distance increase are you experiencing? Is it consistent?
Thanks
Scott F reply :
So you can get even more impressive backlashes. 
Alonerankin2 reply :
Ahhh, catching on to it I see!
chelboed reply :
I would think the best place to increase casting performance would be longer spool to levelwind distance (BB-1), T-wing, KR Concept...or maybe line type.
aavery2 reply :
Lower startup inertia, consistent casting with less effort, and contrary to what many think, better bearings in many cases actually require less braking.
FloridaFishinFool reply :
My ceramic bearings are lighter than steel bearings. Startup is easier I do believe and with less weight, run on is lessened some. And on some of my reels I have both magnetic and centrifugal anti-backlash braking, but I keep the magnetic on zero and use only 2 brake shoes and my thumb. I seem to get a little more distance out of a reel this way. I like that my spools spin easier with ceramic hybrid bearings, maybe it is just a confidence improver if nothing else.
Jrob78 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 3:52 AM, aavery2 said:Lower startup inertia, consistent casting with less effort, and contrary to what many think, better bearings in many cases actually require less braking.
I've found this to be true as well.
chelboed reply :
1- lower start up inertia I can buy if you're casting light lures...but above 1/4 oz...I'm less likely to bite.
FFF: I would think you would have more consistent casts with your magnet than your thumb. Thumb-draggers would be difficult to be perfectly consistent even if only due to varied outside shape of your lines spool due to line overlap.
(Not being argumentative at all...just discussing the engineering of it all)
So how bout raw data. How many yards can I expect out of super zoot bearings?
(This is a good topic, I'm diggin' it)
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:03 AM, chelboed said:1- lower start up inertia I can buy if you're casting light lures...but above 1/4 oz...I'm less likely to bite.
FFF: I would think you would have more consistent casts with your magnet than your thumb. Thumb-draggers would be difficult to be perfectly consistent even if only due to varied outside shape of your lines spool due to line overlap.
(Not being argumentative at all...just discussing the engineering of it all)
So how bout raw data. How many yards can I expect out of super zoot bearings?
(This is a good topic, I'm diggin' it)
Most backlashes occur at the beginning of the cast, think about why, and what type of braking is more effective during this part of the cast.
Improved casting distance is one of the lesser benefits of improved bearings. You should be able to cast somewhere close to 40 yards using stock bearings and baits in the 3/8oz range, ceramics lessen the effort required to achieve this same distance.
FloridaFishinFool reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:03 AM, chelboed said:FFF: I would think you would have more consistent casts with your magnet than your thumb. Thumb-draggers would be difficult to be perfectly consistent even if only due to varied outside shape of your lines spool due to line overlap.
This is interesting because as I understand it, even though I may have the magnets backed off as far out as is possible by a zero setting, those magnets can never really be turned off and are always "on" as magnets, so the question arises, even though I am using a zero setting is it truly a zero effect?
But, now that you mention it, I guess I am saying I prefer the centrifugal brakes over the magnetic braking as more effective, because the centrifugal brakes really only work on the front side of the cast (highest spinning speed where I need it most) while magnetic braking tends to be most effective on the tail end of a cast (I am told over on TT), but for me, that is where my thumb kicks in when the centrifugal brakes are waning and I want to control lure placement at the end of the cast.
But I will do some experimenting with this and try turning off the centrifugal brakes and work with trying to dial it in with just the magnetic braking and see if I can find some use for it within range.
If I get some nasty rat's nests with my braid line I know who to blame! 
Alonerankin2 reply :
I've been plenty satisfied with my Arb bearings, I have used ceramics as well, the pitching seems a trife easier with ceramics, but the noise factor is a turnoff and I don't see the advantage.When I replace bearings now it will more than Likely be with Abec 5 stainless...
aavery2 reply :
FFF, can you give me a quick rundown of how you believe magnetic brakes work to slow/control spool speed.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:27 AM, Alonerankin2 said:I've been plenty satisfied with my Arb bearings, I have used ceramics as well, the pitching seems a trife easier with ceramics, but the noise factor is a turnoff and I don't see the advantage.When I replace bearings now it will more than Likely be with Abec 5 stainless...
What are Arb bearings?
new2BC4bass reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 3:52 AM, aavery2 said:Lower startup inertia, consistent casting with less effort, and contrary to what many think, better bearings in many cases actually require less braking.
I also find this true, but if I am going to invest in better bearings, I also get the reel tuned although it is my understanding there isn't a lot that can be done to a Daiwa. Every reel I've had this done to runs with fewer brakes on. Even when I am trying to throw hard. The little extra noise from ceramic bearings doesn't bother me. In fact I find it an aid in determining spool speed and thus when I need to use my thumb.
FloridaFishinFool reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:28 AM, aavery2 said:FFF, can you give me a quick rundown of how you believe magnetic brakes work to slow/control spool speed.
I found this description online:
http://www.stripersonline.com/t/391062/how-do-magnetic-casting-reels-work
"A spinning spool, with a conducting metal in close proximity to fixed magnets, will create a disturbance in the magnetic field(s) of the fixed magnets, and this disturbance is called an "Eddy Current". It won't work with graphite or plastic spools - only spools that can conduct electricity. If you have a plastic or graphite spool in your reel, you can add a disc of aluminum or copper on the end nearest the magnet(s) and it will work."
-----------------
"I asked my wife, who has a physics degree about it and she said that a magnetism and electricity are very closely related. A magnetic field is essentially an area of static electric currents. If the spool spins consistently with the polarity of the magnets, it will actually be assisted in spinning, if it spins counter to the polarity of the magnets, then a drag will be exerted on it. In other words, a counter clockwise spin may produce acceleration and a clockwise spin may create drag on the spinning conductor."
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"I'll try and be as non technical as I can here.... The phenomenon of magnetic damping has to due with a principle in Physics called Lenz's Law.
When a metal disturbs a magnetic field, an electric field is produced in the metal. This is what happens in dynamos that are in use in hydroelectric plants. The better the conductor of electricity the stronger the electric field. Thats why aluminum is the choice even though it's not ferromagnetic.
Now... The electric field in the spinning spool sets up it's own magnetic field. This magnetic field is such that it causes a force opposing the direction of rotation. Therefore... the faster the spool turns... the higher the electric field produced... the greater the opposing magnetic field... the greater the breaking force.
The reason this works so well is that as the spool slows down... the more gentle the breaking... it's like having the most educated invisible thumb built into your reel!
You may want to consult a high school general physics text, or do a search on Lenz's Lawe on the Web if you want to know more.
I hope this helps somewhat.
Prefessa"
***This description tends to contradict what I read on TT. If it involves the disruption of an EMF field created by the spinning metal (aluminum) spool, then the magnetic brakes would be at the peak effectiveness at peak RPM's of the spool rather than most effective on the tail end of the cast as the spool slows down as I read on another forum.
I rarely engage the magnetic brakes and prefer to use centrifugal instead, but the magnets are always on and always there anyways and may have an effect even if turned to zero.
Alonerankin2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:30 AM, aavery2 said:What are Arb bearings?
Lol, I know you know..
aavery2 reply :
Lentz's Law, very cool, it's almost like magic.
FloridaFishinFool reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:30 AM, aavery2 said:What are Arb bearings?
Anti-rust bearings. Meaning, they are nothing more than rustable 440 stainless steel ball bearings that have been anodized with either a black or gold anodized coating to prevent rust.
But keep in mind the anodized coating is only viable where it is not rubbed off, meaning, the anodization will rub off the ball bearings inside the bearing, and everywhere they touch rendering the anodized coating virtually useless inside the bearing. This is why oil is needed in them too! But the anodized coating looks nice even if does not do much of nothing where it is really needed most- inside the bearing where all the action is.
ARB bearings is in no way an improved bearing. It is just an anodized regular old SS ball bearing and nothing more. And the anodized coating does not make it spin or operate one iota better than regular non-anodized bearings. It is just a sales gimmick more than anything else since the coating wears off where it is needed most on the moving parts inside.
The very fact that someone would go through the trouble to anodize a SS ball bearing indicates they are trying to prevent rust. But, if the anodized coating is worn off all moving parts rendering it useless, then what was the point of it in the first place? Sales gimmick.
I have shimano reels from the mid 1980's with regular old 440 stainless steel ball bearings that are as new today as they were 30 years ago. No anodized coating. Not needed.
Alonerankin2 reply :
Yes, that was a interesting read a few weeks back aavery2, no doubt interesting...
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:55 AM, Alonerankin2 said:Lol, I know you know..
I know, but I wanted you to say so that anyone who is less familiar with the acronym would be able to follow along better and not mistake Arb for a brand of bearing like ZPI.
Alonerankin2 reply :
Oh, I didn't say they were overly special ( ARB ) just that I'm content with them!
Alonerankin2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:59 AM, aavery2 said:I know, but I wanted you to say so that anyone who is less familiar with the acronym would be able to follow along better and not mistake Arb for a brand of bearing like ZPI.
Yup, good point...
aavery2 reply :
So what makes ceramic hybrid bearings better than ARB or are they?
tomustang reply :
Graphite is a conductor...
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:57 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:Anti-rust bearings. Meaning, they are nothing more than rustable 440 stainless steel ball bearings that have been anodized with either a black or gold anodized coating to prevent rust.
But keep in mind the anodized coating is only viable where it is not rubbed off, meaning, the anodization will rub off the ball bearings inside the bearing, and everywhere they touch rendering the anodized coating virtually useless inside the bearing. This is why oil is needed in them too! But the anodized coating looks nice even if does not do much of nothing where it is really needed most- inside the bearing where all the action is.
ARB bearings is in no way an improved bearing. It is just an anodized regular old SS ball bearing and nothing more. And the anodized coating does not make it spin or operate one iota better than regular non-anodized bearings. It is just a sales gimmick more than anything else since the coating wears off where it is needed most on the moving parts inside.
The very fact that someone would go through the trouble to anodize a SS ball bearing indicates they are trying to prevent rust. But, if the anodized coating is worn off all moving parts rendering it useless, then what was the point of it in the first place? Sales gimmick.
I have shimano reels from the mid 1980's with regular old 440 stainless steel ball bearings that are as new today as they were 30 years ago. No anodized coating. Not needed.
So why not use 304SS or 316SS?
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 5:14 AM, tomustang said:Graphite is a conductor...
A good conductor, but you lost me a little with where you are going with that.
tomustang reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 4:49 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:It won't work with graphite or plastic spools - only spools that can conduct electricity.
On 1/26/2015 at 5:22 AM, aavery2 said:A good conductor, but you lost me a little with where you are going with that.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 5:28 AM, tomustang said:
I do not know much about it, so maybe someone can add their thoughts. I seem to remember something I read that said because of the way graphite fibers were suspended in resins it created a high resistance to eddy currents. Eddy current as I understand it is the counter EMF required to produce the braking effect with magnetic brakes in fishing reels. So with a high resistance to the production of eddy currents you would get little to no braking.
Again, this is just how I understand it. I also understand that graphite conducts electricity much differently than metals such as copper and tin. This may also play a part in this.
Master Bait'r reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 5:17 AM, aavery2 said:So why not use 304SS or 316SS?
Too soft. 440 is also used in things like sword blades and is very hard stainless. 304 or 316 would offer good corrosion resistance but would likely scuff, scratch and generally degrade to replacement much faster. This is also why ceramic is a nice choice albeit noisier.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 9:59 AM, Master Bait said:Too soft. 440 is also used in things like sword blades and is very hard stainless. 304 or 316 would offer good corrosion resistance but would likely scuff, scratch and generally degrade to replacement much faster. This is also why ceramic is a nice choice albeit noisier.
316 is very soft compared to 440, it also can not be machined to the same tolerances that 440 can, which makes it a poor choice for precision bearings. If they would run the 440ss through a passivation process to help remove impurities the corrosion properties would be better also. This may be what they advertise as ARB, CRBB bearings.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
The balls in a ceramic hybrid bearing are rounder, harder, smoother and lighter than ss in addition to corrosion proof. Easier startup is critical for finesse casting, but still beneficial for heavier weights. Resulting Improved accuracy is the biggest benefit with distance a happy coincidence. There are more cost effective methods to achieve the goal than making bearing replacement the first resort.
hatrix reply :
I am not going to quote the whole post above me. As for it when it's most effective and that it would be at a higher rpm I will give a easy example. So say you have a giant magnet that was strong enough to move your car. If you go blowing by the magnet at 120 mph how much do you think the magnet would change anything. Now imagine going past the same magnet at 5 mph. That's the best way I suppose I can explain it to make sense.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 10:45 PM, hatrix said:I am not going to quote the whole post above me. As for it when it's most effective and that it would be at a higher rpm I will give a easy example. So say you have a giant magnet that was strong enough to move your car. If you go blowing by the magnet at 120 mph how much do you think the magnet would change anything. Now imagine going past the same magnet at 5 mph. That's the best way I suppose I can explain it to make sense.
So in a fishing reel, particularly the spool, what do the magnets act on. In your example, the magnet works on the car because it is made of steel, and there is a magnetic attraction. In a fishing reel, the spool is made of aluminum, so what do the magnets act upon?
IAY reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 10:55 PM, aavery2 said:So in a fishing reel, particularly the spool, what do the magnets act on. In your example, the magnet works on the car because it is made of steel, and there is a magnetic attraction. In a fishing reel, the spool is made of aluminum, so what do the magnets act upon?
It still acts on the aluminum, it doesn't have to be a ferrous material to induce a current. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_lawThe change in the state of original magnetic flux due to the spool spinning naturally creates a EMF that acts opposite of the change, thus magnetic breaking.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/26/2015 at 11:01 PM, IAY said:It still acts on the aluminum, it doesn't have to be a ferrous material to induce a current. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_lawThe change in the state of original magnetic flux due to the spool spinning naturally creates a EMF that acts opposite of the change, thus magnetic breaking.
Thanks for sharing that
chelboed reply :
Detour: are ceramic bearings noisier? (I heard they are)
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
Ceramics are a little louder, but I don't find them to be the growling monsters that some do. lol
I look at like it hot rodding a car or bike. Faster almost always means louder to some degree, and to be honest, stock is probably fast enough anyway.
kcdinkerz reply :
It sounds cool swooooshhh. Lol easier to cast with I don't see Much improvement in distance only when I'm throw light stuff on my ch50s do I notice further cast. and I would not reccomend ceramics if your thumb controll is Not good. Backlash are nasty
aavery2 reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 1:27 AM, chelboed said:Detour: are ceramic bearings noisier? (I heard they are)
They are certainly noticeably louder in Magnesium framed reels.
Alonerankin2 reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 1:27 AM, chelboed said:Detour: are ceramic bearings noisier? (I heard they are)
I had to wear hearing protection after installing a set...
tomustang reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 6:45 AM, Alonerankin2 said:I had to wear hearing protection after installing a set...
Dynamat the inside of the reel 
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 6:45 AM, Alonerankin2 said:I had to wear hearing protection after installing a set...
Do you mind sharing the brand and spec you used? Also, did you clean the reel at the same time? Reason I ask is that I see where factories grease the frame to quiet the spool and after cleaning the spool can be louder as well.
Angry John reply :
Back to breaking: your discussion seems most centered on fixed inductor's while there are springs and lateral movement of the inductor in most spools.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 11:41 AM, Angry John said:Back to breaking: your discussion seems most centered on fixed inductor's while there are springs and lateral movement of the inductor in most spools.
What are you getting at John?
Jaheff reply :
Why you trying to make John Angry?On 1/27/2015 at 11:54 AM, aavery2 said:What are you getting at John?
aavery2 reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 12:18 PM, Jaheff said:Why you trying to make John Angry?
You never want to stir up a guy with a name like Angry John. I assure you that was not my intent.
Angry John reply :
The discussion about mag working only at low speed most does not work with variable inductors. They brake most at high speed because the mag influence is high and the inductor is deepest in the magnets.
aavery2 reply :
On 1/27/2015 at 12:47 PM, Angry John said:The discussion about mag working only at low speed most does not work with variable inductors. They brake most at high speed because the mag influence is high and the inductor is deepest in the magnets.
From what I can tell of the math behind Lentz's Law it looks like the EMF produced is proportional and inverse of the speed of the inductor, meaning that the braking would be very linear throughout the cast. The difference that comes to mind is that centrifugal brakes make physical contact with a braking surface and probably have a more profound effect than the magnetic brakes at the same time. When the spool speed slows and the centrifugal brakes are less effective then the effects of the magnetic brakes are more dominant.
These are just my thoughts
Angry John reply :
That matches with my on the water observations. I have not used but one centrifugal reel my Luna 300l so I would consider my observations lacking in that style of braking system. I believe most people stick with what they learn on and call it best. Both systems have to work well or one would be gone by now.
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