Do you fill up your spool? 2024
j bab reply :
I've always filled up my baitcasting reels to their max capacity - right below the point where the spool tapers off.
I see pictures online a lot of times where guys fill up 1/2 or 2/3 of the way... Any benefits to this? I guess you don't use as much line, but you could just use backing to use less line instead.
Hulkster reply :
the problem with underfilling any reel is that you sacrifice your gear ratio and inches per handle turn.
because now you are winding the line over a smaller circumference with each handle turn vs what you would be if the spool was filled properly.
so I fill mine up to just below the spool lip, spinning or baitcasting.
fishnkamp reply :
They are under filling the spool and you are filling it a bit too much,. Leave about 1/8 of an inch of the side of the arbor exposed. Under filling results in shorter casts, and less line retrieved per turn of the handle. Over filling can result in more bird nests, but if you are casting okay without much trouble maybe it is working for you. I like to fill my reel spools about 1/2 way with 14 pound Stren mono then add whatever main line I want to fish with. That helps with reducing the expenses of filling up a reel with expensive fluoro,, copoly or braid
new2BC4bass reply :
Filling 1/16-1/8 below the spool lip is suppose to make for easier casting with fewer backlashes. I suppose that could be true for newbies, but once your thumb is trained, I doubt it gives a rat's azz how much line is on the spool. As stated, you will lose a few IPT. Supposedly casting distance is a bit shorter. I fill baitcast spools like you do. If spooling with braid or fluorocarbon (or light mono or co-polymer), I always lay down some backing with a cheap 12# mono (12# being my preferred weight for MH rods so I have a lot of it). Light mono may be cheap, but I see no benefit to having 300 yards of it on a spool when I can top off two or three spools with that 300 yards.
Jrob78 reply :
I try to fill mine up pretty full but I can tell you from experience, overfilling is no fun.
gimruis reply :
I've learned from experience that filling the spool all the way full can cause problems with back lashes on a bait caster. Like some have already mentioned, leave some room. You might sacrifice a little line but you'll save headaches.
hatrix reply :
On 10/26/2016 at 10:49 AM, new2BC4bass said:Filling 1/16-1/8 below the spool lip is suppose to make for easier casting with fewer backlashes. I suppose that could be true for newbies, but once your thumb is trained, I doubt it gives a rat's azz how much line is on the spool. As stated, you will lose a few IPT. Supposedly casting distance is a bit shorter. I fill baitcast spools like you do. If spooling with braid or fluorocarbon (or light mono or co-polymer), I always lay down some backing with a cheap 12# mono (12# being my preferred weight for MH rods so I have a lot of it). Light mono may be cheap, but I see no benefit to having 300 yards of it on a spool when I can top off two or three spools with that 300 yards.
Even with a trained thumb filling to much will cause problems. I have done it a few times and even though it didn't look it that little bit of extra line was the issue.
Nick49 reply :
For me, 3/4 for ease of line management. 1/2 on my rigs that I use for pitching/skipping docks.
j bab reply :
Guys I'm not over filling. I have no problems. Lol.
Thanks for everyone's input though.
doyle8218 reply :
Yes.
Bass_Fishing_Socal reply :
I alway leave a bit of room on spool maybe 1/8 of an inch. I will fish until half of spool left to re spool new line. I dont use backup line since I use hybrid which pretty cheap by itself. Once a season, if the line still managable and still more than 2/3 left, I will re spool with the same line but rotate the end of spool out.
WIGuide reply :
It's possible that these pictures you're seeing aren't after they're freshly spooled. For instance, I only re spool once a season unless something crazy happens where I need more line. By the end of the year if you look at a lot of my reels I'm down to 2/3's maybe a little less.
rippin-lips reply :
Properly filled spool
johnD. reply :
On 10/27/2016 at 10:14 PM, rippin-lips said:Properly filled spool
Exactly.
Use backing or whatever it takes to get it there. I use the reel the way it was intended to be used by the manufacture.
J Francho reply :
IPT goes way down on a spool that is less than properly loaded.
BobP reply :
I don't see one right answer to this. If you have no problems with backlashes with a particular reel, go ahead and fill it up. Got a reel that's a little touchy? Under fill it a bit to tame it down. Worried about IPT? Fill it to the brim or use a faster reel. There's all kinds of ways to skin this cat.
J Francho reply :
How would an under-filled spool tame a reel down? Not sure I understand this. Seems like you could just set it up properly to "tame" it.
Team9nine reply :
I'm a classic over-spooler, much preferring the benefits of such. I would consider the pic above to be under-filled, though correct by manufacturers standards.
On 10/28/2016 at 1:22 AM, J Francho said:How would an under-filled spool tame a reel down? Not sure I understand this. Seems like you could just set it up properly to "tame" it.
Certainly you can adjust properly, and that is pretty much a requirement, but under-spooling additionally takes advantage of less mass on the spool, therefore less momentum/inertia to have to deal toward the end of the cast. Another option was the old Ryobi/Lew's V-spools which allowed a maximum amount of line at the beginning of the cast while the lure velocity is at its greatest. Then, as lure velocity decreases toward the end of the cast, the “V” design reduced the available line to leave the spool per revolution. This automatic reduction acts similar to a spool speed governor.
-T9
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 2:28 AM, Team9nine said:but under-spooling additionally takes advantage of less mass on the spool, therefore less momentum/inertia to have to deal toward the end of the cast
We might be "measurebating" here, but doesn't the spool have to spin faster to pay out the same amount of line? I get reducing unsprung weight, but the means to achieve that weight goal seem counter-intuitive to the final goal, which is a good cast without back lash. I guess whenever I've had a low, and I mean really low spool, the reel never really performed to it's potential, and I wasn't able to perform any kind of consistent cast.
And yeah, I'm an over filler too.
Columbia Craw reply :
I've seen similar photos. I always thought the owner must have had a heck of a backlash, cut it out and hadn't taken the time to properly fill the spool with new line. Fill the spool to the bevel at the edge of the spool. That's how the reel was designed to reach optimum performance.
Team9nine reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 3:22 AM, J Francho said:We might be "measurebating" here, but doesn't the spool have to spin faster to pay out the same amount of line? I get reducing unsprung weight, but the means to achieve that weight goal seem counter-intuitive to the final goal, which is a good cast without back lash. I guess whenever I've had a low, and I mean really low spool, the reel never really performed to it's potential, and I wasn't able to perform any kind of consistent cast.
And yeah, I'm an over filler too.
Yes, assuming we are comparing equal casting distances/lure velocities, but most under-spoolers are not going to have near the same casting distance as a correct or over-spooler will, and will suffer if they try to. They will have slightly better control of their spool speed though. Someone above mentioned cutting back spool amount significantly for skipping - short range tactic where controlling spool inertia would help with overall control. Same would apply for those with not quite as much experience with baitcasters who want a little easier time initially. It really depends upon what you are trying to accomplish, I think. Hard to have it both ways, though one might make the case for JDM shallow spools - all the benefits of full spools plus the added benefits of less mass
-T9
pawpaw reply :
The only reel I regularly fill to less than capacity is the one I use for skipping jigs. Even then it's not under filled by much.
new2BC4bass reply :
After using my baitcast reels for the first season, I sent them to an Online friend for cleaning and a few upgrades on a couple of them. All but one were Daiwas. He told me I had too much spool tension on all of the reels. He couldn't cast a 1/4 oz. weight as I had them set up. He informed me that much tension could damage the plastic under the cast control knob on my Daiwas.
Also told me I was under-filled. For best casting distance and best IPT I should fill to the bevel on the spool, and decrease spool tension to where there was just enough to remove side-to-side play. I did as suggested, and had to learn to cast my reels all over again. It was backlash city for awhile.
This guy also told me the drag would be better with the spools filled, but I don't understand how that could affect drag.
Anyway I feel it was worth learning to cast with the reels filled that way.
ClackerBuzz reply :
i've always overfilled but just saw this vid and am about to try underfilling for skipping with my frog rod. anyone try it?
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 4:58 AM, new2BC4bass said:He informed me that much tension could damage the plastic under the cast control knob on my Daiwas.
Daiwas have a metal plate that contacts the pinion shaft. The metal is cushioned by a soft rubber backing. I suppose the pinion shaft could wear out, but I haven't seen this yet.
On 10/28/2016 at 4:58 AM, new2BC4bass said:This guy also told me the drag would be better with the spools filled, but I don't understand how that could affect drag.
Drag is drag. It's the same, either pulled directly from the reel, from a 90° mounted on a rod, or anything in between. The size of the spool doesn't matter - or at least at these differences is negligible. The only thing different is IPT - which means a half filled spool has to spin faster to pay out line at the same rate as a full spool. So, maybe a drag washer wears out faster. Unless we're dealing with really light line, doesn't really apply to bass fishing too much.
None of it bad advice, but it isn't a reason to fill your spools up.
If you want to skip easier - no brakes, and lots of spool tension. Start with a Senko or Arkey jig.
Here's my best reason: it's like tucking in your shirt, putting on a belt, and tying your shoes. It looks better. 
Catt reply :
Chamfer: a symmetrical sloping surface at an edge or corner.
See in the above picture where the edge of the spool is chamfered (beveled)?
Stopping your line at the lower edge will give right at an 1/8" from the top of the spool.
Backlashes are generally operator error!
Your reel ain't setup properly or your thumb is undereducated or I plan ole blew it!
Team9nine reply :
We're "measurebating" now as J Francho likes to put it 
but the diameter of the line on your spool (effective spool diameter) is related to the pressure exerted by the drag via torque. Spool width also comes into play here (say two identical reels. but one wide spool and one narrow spool version). The more line spooled on your reel, the more consistent the drag pressure will be. Also, you bring into play spool turning speed, though this is probably much less an issue with bass and bass gear - but you never know when you might unintentionally hook a big striper or catfish (LOL). Just how noticeable or important 
eh
-T9
Further North reply :
Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?
To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.
...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.
Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.
Do we really think that makes much difference?
j bab reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:59 AM, Further North said:Do we really think that makes much difference?
No. We like to talk about stuff that doesn't make a colossal difference imagine what the forums would look like if nobody discussed things that made very minor differences
Further North reply :
...that's what I thought.
...and I've found that most people don't like math much...
WRB reply :
You can over fill a baitcasting reel with line. If the spool is too full the line interferes with the reel frame slowing down the spool. About 1/8" down from the spool outer edge is about right for most reels, considering the line in wound on tightly.
Tom
KP Duty reply :
The answer is yes. A full spool makes a man feel good.
Advantage reply :
Was always taught to stop an 1/8th of inch from top of the spool too.
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 6:22 AM, Team9nine said:We're "measurebating" now as J Francho likes to put it
-T9
Since we are measurebating, I'll bite. Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure. A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move. But if I employ a lever, I can move it. It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter. Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag? Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.
Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible. If there's a drag advantage, all the better.
And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol. It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!
A-Jay reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 8:49 PM, J Francho said:Since we are measurebating, I'll bite. Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure. A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move. But if I employ a lever, I can move it. It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter. Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag? Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.
Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible. If there's a drag advantage, all the better.
And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol. It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!
Look at you making all kinds of sense at 9 AM ~
A-Jay
fishballer06 reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:59 AM, Further North said:Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?
To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.
...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.
Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.
Do we really think that makes much difference?
Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?
Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.
Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve.
new2BC4bass reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 1:27 PM, WRB said:You can over fill a baitcasting reel with line. If the spool is too full the line interferes with the reel frame slowing down the spool. About 1/8" down from the spool outer edge is about right for most reels, considering the line in wound on tightly.
Tom
I have a reel like that. It was even mentioned in a review not to fill it to the bevel because it then rubbed on the frame.
On 10/28/2016 at 9:25 PM, fishballer06 said:Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?
Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.
Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve.
You beat me to it. That is a big difference to many people. How much on the water I couldn't say. I will say I am coming to like faster ratios for most of my fishing even if it is mostly all in my head.
WRB reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 9:26 PM, new2BC4bass said:I have a reel like that. It was even mentioned in a review not to fill it to the bevel because it then rubbed on the frame.
You beat me to it. That is a big difference to many people. How much on the water I couldn't say. I will say I am coming to like faster ratios for most of my fishing even if it is mostly all in my head.
What you have over looked is a 120' or 40 yard cast reduces the IPT on 100 and 200 size reels from 30" to approx 18" at the end of the cast and increases as the line is wound back onto the spool.
You can test the IPT by marking the line at the rod tip with a sharpie pen, crank the handle 1 turn and make a second mark then measure the actual IPT at whatever spool fill you desire; your full spool and at whatever casting distance is normal for you. I did this several years ago and based on actual IPT changed to 8: 1 gear ratio's on my 100 size reels.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 8:49 PM, J Francho said:Since we are measurebating, I'll bite. Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure. A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move. But if I employ a lever, I can move it. It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter. Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag? Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.
Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible. If there's a drag advantage, all the better.
And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol. It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!
Measurebating! 
Drag consistency:
With a full spool, there is less proportional change in “effective” spool diameter at the end of a long cast vs. the beginning. Say your full spool cast peels out enough line that your effective spool diameter is decreased by 1/8” when the bait lands, say 15% reduction. The same length cast with a half empty spool will cause a greater actual reduction in diameter (because the circumference is less – less line per revolution), and a greater proportional reduction in diameter (because the actual reduction is greater, and the “effective” diameter is less to begin with). The more consistent “effective” spool diameter with a full spool means that drag performance is also more consistent, because it is directly related to the spool shaft torque developed at a given line tension.
Drag smoothness:
If there's a difference in smoothness, it could be because a fully spooled reel will require greater pressure at the washers to achieve the same breakout tension (your drag is essentially weakened). If there's a "sweet spot," in the drag, maybe a fuller spool tends to move the slip point toward it. Many variables here.
Regarding differences in wear - the fuller spool will turn fewer times to pay out the same length of line, but the friction in the washers to achieve the same drag resistance is higher... It's probably a wash
Team9nine reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:59 AM, Further North said:Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?
To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.
...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.
Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.
Do we really think that makes much difference?
fishballer06 got it, but yes, it makes a difference in several areas.
On 10/28/2016 at 8:49 PM, J Francho said:Since we are measurebating, I'll bite. Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure. A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move. But if I employ a lever, I can move it. It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter. Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag? Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.
Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible. If there's a drag advantage, all the better.
And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol. It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!
So yes, if a drag is set at 5lbs for however much line you have on your spool, then you will have 5 pounds of pressure. However, the minute you make a cast and line comes off your spool, you no longer have 5 lbs of pressure. You now have more than that because the effective spool diameter has decreased.
It is similar to the amount of force it takes to open/close a door at the middle of the door vs the end of the door. The door hinges and pressure haven't changed, but it's always easier and smoother from the end - more and easier control. As line spool diameter decreases, the amount of drag goes up because you are now pulling off line from closer to the center of the spool (keeping in mind you set the drag with a full spool).
The angler who overfills a spool, will have a smaller overall decrease in spool diameter for any given line length out because one revolution of his spool will encompass more line than someone with an underfilled spool.. See fishballer06's calculations for an example. As such, he will have less variation in drag pressure across a range of line lengths, and have better overall drag control.
NOTE: After typing all this up, I see fissure_man has beat me to the explanation. Maybe one of our two examples will make sense
On 10/28/2016 at 9:25 PM, fishballer06 said:Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?
Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.
Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve.
BINGO - underfilling vs overfilling basically changes the effective gear ratio of the reel, and this will occur over all lengths of casts as Tom points out.
-T9
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 9:48 PM, fissure_man said:If there's a difference in smoothness, it could be because a fully spooled reel will require greater pressure at the washers to achieve the same breakout tension (your drag is essentially weakened). If there's a "sweet spot," in the drag, maybe a fuller spool tends to move the slip point toward it. Many variables here.
I agree there are many variables, but drag pressure is not one that changes with spool diameter. 
It does not make sense. You can't change drag pressure by changing spool diameter. The ONLY thing that changes that is star drag adjustments. If you want to talk torque required to get the spool to slip, maybe we're on to something. I'm not quite clear on the physics - specifically how to describe a class III lever as it applies to a rod, reel, line and drag....
I'll just take it for granted that the drag is "smoother," or operates optimally with a full spool.
fissure_man reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 9:54 PM, J Francho said:I agree there are many variables, but drag pressure is not one that changes with spool diameter.
Disagree, at least if you are setting your drag to achieve slippage at the same line tension.
Seasonal example: You're putting on your snow tires. If you took one lug off with a 6" wrench, and another with a 24" breaker bar, and they both slipped with the same force at the end of the wrench, were they equally tight?
With a full spool, it takes more pressure at the washers to achieve the same drag resistance, due to increased torque.
WRB reply :
Line pressure does affect the amount of line wound onto the bait casting reel spool. If the line is loosely wound on the diameter of line on the spool increases. When you make a cast the line loosens due to centrifical force, that is why your thumb is so important during a cast to keep the line from springing off the spool.
When you spool new line onto a reel it will not be very tight because it's dry and depends on how much pressure you apply as you wind on line. As you fish with the reel the line usually tightens up, reducing the diameter of spooled line about 1/16" on most bait casting reels and need to take that into consideration when respooling reels.
Keeping the line tightly wound onto the spool is another reason to run the line over the index finger and under the thumb, the slight pressure applied not only gives you instant feedback what a lure is doing, it help to keep spooled line tight.
Tom
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:03 PM, fissure_man said:Seasonal example: You're putting on your snow tires. If you took one lug off with a 6" wrench, and another with a 24" breaker bar, and they both slipped with the same force at the end of the wrench, were they equally tight?
If you tightened a lug to 75 ft-lbs. then it would take that same amount of torque to remove the lug. It would get easier as the length of the wrench increases. It doesn't change the how tight the the lug was. See me 500 lb. boulder example, above. I think that leverage comparison is where spool size comes - and me ultimately "argue-reeing" with you.
Might have to do a little experiment tonight. My 9-yo might get a kick out of sciencing the crap out of this in my kitchen.
Team9nine reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:26 PM, J Francho said:Might have to do a little experiment tonight. My 9-yo might get a kick out of sciencing the crap out of this in my kitchen.
I think the terminology might be getting in the way of understanding , but you can do a couple easy experiments with the kid to see what we're trying to explain.
Here's a simple test you can do with a reel with no line on it.
Set the drag at whatever moderate setting you wish. Make sure though when its set you can slip drag by simply applying pressure with one finger to the outermost rim of the spool. Now take your finger and move to the inside edge (where you'd tie your line) of the spool near the axis and try to slip the drag again. Either it will take much more force to rotate the spool or your finger will slip and the spool will not turn. This is similar to the door experiment I mentioned.
Another test.
Fill that same empty reel full of cheap line. Set the drag using a scale to what you would typically do if going fishing. Now peel off half or more of that line from the spool (for effect), reconnect the scale to the line, and test again. Don't touch the original start drag or setting. You should see that it now takes a little more force to get that drag working at the same setting compared to your original full spool setting.
-T9
WRB reply :
Archimedes lever applies to bait casting reel drag washers. A full spool acts like a longer lever arm verses a smaller spooled line diameter. With today's high end drag disks and very smooth materials the drags can be finely adjusted to nearly eliminate the lever affect. Single smaller disk surface areas of some reels the lever affect is more noticeable with amount of line spooled.
Tom
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:40 PM, Team9nine said:Fill that same empty reel full of cheap line. Set the drag using a scale to what you would typically do if going fishing. Now peel off half or more of that line from the spool (for effect), reconnect the scale to the line, and test again. Don't touch the original start drag or setting. You should see that it now takes a little more force to get that drag working at the same setting compared to your original full spool setting.
That's what we're gonna do tonight. I have a feeling the full spool measurement will be less than the not full spool.
On 10/28/2016 at 5:28 AM, Catt said:Chamfer
There's a balm for chamfer'd bottoms.
A-Jay reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 10:56 PM, WRB said:Archimedes lever applies to bait casting reel drag washers. A full spool acts like a longer lever arm verses a smaller spooled line diameter. With today's high end multiple drag disks and very smooth materials the drags can be finely adjusted to nearly eliminate the lever affect. Single smaller disk surface areas of some reels the lever affect is more noticeable with amount of line spooled.
Tom
Agreed ~ A relatable example of this is when fighting larger, long & hard running game fish (I'm speaking of saltwater here - tuna, bill fish etc) when a fish is taking most of the spool on a super long run, it's common practice to back off the drag. As the line left on the spool decreases the diameter size, the drag pressure definitely increases so if it was initially set at say 50 pounds of drag at the start with a full spool - with less than half a spool left there is considerable more than that being applied.
I will also say that in the vast majority of Bass fishing applications, the IPT issue is something I'd address well ahead of drag pressure.
A-Jay
J Francho reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 11:07 PM, A-Jay said:I will also say that in the vast majority of Bass fishing applications, the IPT issue is something I'd address well ahead of drag pressure.
Agreed! Still fun to do some science with the kid. I really want to see if the difference is negligible or not.
Subaqua Adinterim reply :
Coincidentally, I just read the October issue of Sport Fishing magazine that I signed out a few days ago from the local library. The article on pages 14 - 20, titled Drag Kings, discusses in detail the drag systems on reels.
A quote from Chris Littau, manager of product and technology strategy at Zebco is from the article. " Reel drag systems are governed by the torque equation (torque = force x radius). In the case of reels, the radius is actually the distance from the center of the spool to where the line exits. This explains why the more line there is on the spool, the less drag you exert. All else being equal, if the diameter on the spool is reduced to half, then the line tension would double."
Keep in mind this is a salt water fishing magazine,so the reels they discuss are somewhat larger than what is used for freshwater applications, however, the same principles still apply although to a much smaller degree when discussing bass reels.
I'm not an engineer or scientist, however, this article was very informative in regards to how various manufacturers are improving the drags systems on reels.
WRB reply :
Off shore big game fish reels are a different breed of cat then fresh water bass reels. Fresh water bass aren't fast fish or long running hard fighting fish like Bill fish, tuna or wahoo/Ono. Fresh water reels have level winds, off shore reels don't don't because they can fail. The angler is the level and must learn to keep the spooled line even so it doesn't pile up on the ends or in the middle of the spool.
When a fish can swim 40-60 mph coeffient of line drag in the water adds several pounds of pressure on the fish when dragging a few hundred yards of line for hours instead of a few minutes. For that reason the angler needs to be aware of drag forces, both the reels disks and the line drag and make adjustments using a lever drag mechanisms, in lieu of the star drag wheel used for fresh water conventional reels.
Off topic but It's a different world on the high seas.
Tom
Ratherbfishing reply :
An optimist says the spool is half full while a pessimist says it is half empty.
Team9nine reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 12:34 AM, Ratherbfishing said:An optimist says the spool is half full while a pessimist says it is half empty.
And a measurebator says, "How will that difference affect my fishing?"
-T9
.ghoti. reply :
John, your lever example applies. When pulling line against the drag, the further the line is from the spool center, the easier it is the "move the rock".
In addition, centrifugal braking force changes as line is removed. Your bait is moving the fastest at the beginning of the cast. If the spool is only half full, it has to rotate faster to keep up, producing more braking force from a centrifugal system, and from a centrifugally activated magnetic system.
This would be why some recommend using a half filled spool for pitching.
J Francho reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 12:26 AM, cutbait said:" Reel drag systems are governed by the torque equation (torque = force x radius). In the case of reels, the radius is actually the distance from the center of the spool to where the line exits. This explains why the more line there is on the spool, the less drag you exert. All else being equal, if the diameter on the spool is reduced to half, then the line tension would double."
That's well put - I can get my tiny brain around this. Thanks posting it up.
fissure_man reply :
For the dorks, here's the math behind it:
F = normal force applied to drag stack (star drag setting)
P = pressure on drag washer (assumed to be uniform)
Ri = inside radius of drag washer
Ro = outside radius of drag washer
μ = drag coefficient of friction
The strength of the drag amounts to the resistive torque it can develop due to friction on the drag washer surface. To calculate this, consider the washer broken down into infinitesimally small ‘rings,’ of thickness ‘dr’, radius ‘r’.
The surface area of each of these rings ‘dA’ (infinitesimal approximation) is given by:
dA = (2πr)*(dr)
Total area of the washer is given by
A = (π)*(Ro2 – Ri2)
The portion of the drag stack force (F) that acts on the infinitesimal ring can be called dF. Recall that the uniform pressure on the drag washer is ‘P’. Force = Pressure x Area:
dF = (P)*(dA)
substitute from above:
dF = (P)*(2πr)*(dr)
Likewise, for the whole washer:
F = (P)*(A) = P*(π)*(Ro2 – Ri2)
P = (F)/(π)*(Ro2 – Ri2)
Frictional force is calculated as coefficient of friction (μ) x normal force. At the slip point of the drag, the frictional force from each infinitesimal ring is therefore (μ)*(dF). The resistive torque produced by this force (call it dT) depends on the radius of the ring (r):
dT = (μ)*(r)*(dF)
subsitituting for dF:
dT = (μ)*(r)*(P)*(2πr)*(dr) = (μ2πP)*(r2)*(dr)
The total resistive torque supplied by the drag (Tdrag) is calculated by integrating the incremental torque over the area of the drag washer, from r = Ri to r=Ro:
Tdrag = (μ2πP)*(1/3)*(Ro3 – Ri3)
subsitituting for P:
Tdrag = [(F)*(μ2π)*(Ro3 – Ri3)]/[(3)*(π)*(Ro2 – Ri2)]
simplify:
Tdrag = (2/3)*(μ*F)*[Ro3 – Ri3]/[Ro2 – Ri2]
SO: the max frictional torque supplied by the drag (Tdrag, about the crank shaft) depends on the coefficient of friction (μ), the normal force (F - drag star setting), and Ro/Ri which define the surface area of the drag. This makes sense, and is unaffected by spool diameter.
Now we work from the other end (the line). This is much simpler:
A = tension (force) on the fishing line
Reff = effective spool radius (distance from the spool shaft axis to the ‘pull point’ of the line)
G = gear ratio (main gear vs pinion gear)
Pulling on the line applies a torque to the reel’s drag system, working in the opposite direction to the frictional torque of the drag. When this torque equals the max frictional torque, drag slip occurs.
Torque around the spool axis (Ts) is calculated as:
Ts = (A)*(Reff)
Multiply ‘Ts’ by the reel’s gear ratio (G) to determine the resulting torque around the crankshaft (Tc) (recall that ‘Tdrag’ is relative to the crankshaft as well).
Tc = (A)*(Reff)*(G)
At the onset of drag slippage, Tc = Tdrag. Substitute, then rearrange:
A = (Tdrag)/[(Reff)*(G)]
This equation shows that for a larger effective spool radius (Reff), such as a full spool vs. a half-empty spool, the tensile force required to induce slippage (A) is lower with the same drag setting. Interesting side note: the same logic applies to the gear ratio – higher gear ratio reels will achieve lower drag resistance, all other variables being equal (this also applies to the “max” drag under full lockdown).
We can also confirm that A and Reff, are inversely, linearly proportional. Doubling Reff results in halving the tensile force to induce slippage (A). J Francho – do your results confirm this?
This still doesn’t get into drag consistency in actual use, as any sane bass angler will offset the difference in ‘A’ (tension to induce slippage) by adjusting the drag star (increase/decrease F), which increases/decreases ‘Tdrag’.
Consider a reasonable example to test the idea of a full spool offering more consistent drag performance:
Filled spool effective diameter: 1.4 (Reff = 0.7)
Under-filled spool effective diameter: 1.2 (Reff = 0.6)
Spool width = 1.5
Let’s consider that a cast with the filled spool results in a drop of 0.1 in Reff, due to line leaving the reel. This corresponds to a certain ‘volume’ of line, as it sits packed on the reel. Assuming line on both reels is ‘packed’ to similar density, we can determine a corresponding decrease in effective radius for the same length cast with the less-filled reel.
Volume of a cylindrical shell (similar to the area of the washer discussed above):
V = (π)*(a2-b2)*(h)
where:
a = initial Reff (pre-cast)
b = final Reff (post-cast)
h = spool width
With the assumption above for the fully spooled reel, we calculate the volume of line involved in the cast:
a = Reff = 0.7
b = Reff – 0.1 = 0.6
h = 1.5
V = (π)*(0.72-0.62)*(1.5) = 0.613
With the less-filled spool, this volume should be unchanged (assumption). We can then solve for b in the less-filled scenario:
0.613 = (π)*(0.62-b2)*(1.5)
b2 = (0.62)-[(0.613)/(1.5π)]
b = 0.48 (this is the final Reff for the less-filled case, post cast)
Recall the equation to determine tensile force to induce drag slippage (A):
A = (Tdrag)/[(Reff)*(G)]
For the same cast, with a full spool:
Reff = 0.7 (pre-cast), 0.6 (post-cast). Apost-cast = (0.7/0.6)*(Apre-cast) = 1.17 times greater drag resistance
For the same cast, with a less-filled spool:
Reff = 0.6 (pre-cast), 0.48 (post-cast). Apost-cast = (0.6/0.48)*(Apre-cast) = 1.25 times greater drag resistance
So, for a full spool, with the measurements as described, the range of drag resistance achievable during your cast ranges from 1-1.17 times the amount you set it at when you have no line out. With a less-filled spool, the achievable drag resistance ranges from 1-1.25 times the amount you set with no line out.
In summary, the difference in drag performance for varying effective spool sizes for any size reel is significant if the drag mechanism (drag star) is not adjusted to compensate. The saltwater posts above give good examples of this, where effective spool size changes substantially over the course of bringing in a strong fish, necessitating adjustment ‘on the fly’. However, as it applies to bass fishing and prior discussion, the difference in ‘drag consistency’ between a full and partially filled spool doesn’t appear very dramatic.
J Francho reply :
saw it on wikipedia. Had no desire to go through it all, lol.
rippin-lips reply :
J Francho reply :
Knuckle Draggers!
Team9nine reply :
Fissure_man for President!! 
That response will teach people not to ask simple preference questions here on the forums ever again 
-T9 (anxiously awaiting the results of the science experiment tonight from the 9 y.o.)
WRB reply :
Then you add wet multiple disks with double sides and heat, the formulas change. The difference between drag styles and disk materials can vary widely with the same reel manufacturer due to cost and design features. No 2 drags operate with same friction coeffient because you must add heating to the equation.
Bottom line; fresh water bass bait casting reels only need to operate efficiently to prevent line breaking when the bass is near the boat because that is when the forces can raise dramatically.
Largemouth, Spotted and Smallmouth bass can only swim about 15-20 mph for a few seconds, they don't make long fast runs, they make hard quick turns and jump out of the water on occasion.
Spinning reels is where a good smooth drag becomes important because of lower strength line is usually used and subject to failure more often.
Tom
Jaderose reply :
Further North reply :
On 10/28/2016 at 9:25 PM, fishballer06 said:Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?
Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.
Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve.
OK, I get that...but we're talking about the difference between a full spool and a 1/2 full spool on the same reel, with the same retrieve ratio.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but it's been a long day.
fissure_man reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 4:26 AM, WRB said:Then you add wet multiple disks with double sides and heat, the formulas change. The difference between drag styles and disk materials can vary widely with the same reel manufacturer due to cost and design features. No 2 drags operate with same friction coeffient because you must add heating to the equation.
Bottom line; fresh water bass bait casting reels only need to operate efficiently to prevent line breaking when the bass is near the boat because that is when the forces can raise dramatically.
Largemouth, Spotted and Smallmouth bass can only swim about 15-20 mph for a few seconds, they don't make long fast runs, they make hard quick turns and jump out of the water on occasion.
Spinning reels is where a good smooth drag becomes important because of lower strength line is usually used and subject to failure more often.
Tom
Pfft . No fun :-P
I'm not familiar with all types of reel drags, but I think the fundamentals are largely the same, definitely in terms of how spool diameter affects drag performance. Anyway, it's not a comparison of different reels, it's the same reel with more or less line spooled up.
Managing and dissipating heat is important drag design, but consider the temperature constant in the analysis above. It's not really a factor in calculating relative amounts of line tension to achieve initial drag slip, and if needed, would be accounted for in the coefficient of friction. (Again, we're talking about the same reel with different amounts of line - it cancels out).
Good point about the spinning reel. The same logic would apply to those if your casts are long enough (or your spool is small enough) that the effective spool diameter is significantly changed during the course of fishing.
A situation that comes to mind where baitcaster drag performance is important on a long cast (not beside the boat) is jerkbait fishing - I have a jerkbait casting setup that I use for smallmouth fishing, spooled with braid, typically with a light mono or copoly leader, light wire hooks. A big smallie hooked at the beginning of a cast will pull drag, and there's not much give in the braid.
WRB reply :
The drag comparison is largely hypothical regarding fresh water bass because they don't make long hard runs without turning every 10 to 20 feet, rarely run directly away from the angler more then 20 feet. If you hook into a fresh water fish that heads over the horizon it's not a LMB, Smallmouth or spotted bass, it could be a very big stripe bass, musky but even those fish stop and turn within 100 feet. Big off shore fish can and do run directly away from the angler several hundred yards at high speed and the reel drags over heat and can stop working becoming glazed....bye bye fish and all your line.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
I kind of agree, but there's a reason you don't just lock down your drag on all bass reels. If you're using light line or light hooks, having a smooth and consistent drag is important, even if the bass is going to give up its run long before it burns out your reel.
None of this is about drag performance during long, blistering runs from offshore fish (where heat dissipation is a major factor). My posts are about line tension to achieve initial drag slip, which is very relevant to bass fishing.
WRB reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 10:35 AM, fissure_man said:I kind of agree, but there's a reason you don't just lock down your drag on all bass reels. If you're using light line or light hooks, having a smooth and consistent drag is important, even if the bass is going to give up its run long before it burns out your reel.
None of this is about drag performance during long, blistering runs from offshore fish (where heat dissipation is a major factor). My posts are about line tension to achieve initial drag slip, which is very relevant to bass fishing.
Bass fishing is simple; you set the drag at 1/3 rd the line strength for mono dia's and forget it.
I have caught more DD bass then any other member on this site and used 10 to 12 lb line with the drag set at 3 to 4 lbs using a scale without any drag related issues over 40 year period. End of discussion!
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 11:04 AM, WRB said:I have caught more DD bass then any other member on this site and used 10 to 12 lb line with the drag set at 3 to 4 lbs using a scale without any drag related issues over 40 year period. End of discussion!
Tom
The thread is about the pros and cons of filling or underfilling your spools. This led to discussion of the potential differences in drag performance for filled vs. underfilled spools, which I think is an interesting question. Nit-picking? Sure. Negligible? Probably. But still fair game to talk about.
The number of DD bass you've caught and your chosen drag settings not only don't end the discussion, they are irrelevant.
OP: sorry for the hijack
WRB reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 11:27 AM, fissure_man said:
The thread is about the pros and cons of filling or underfilling your spools. This led to discussion of the potential differences in drag performance for filled vs. underfilled spools, which I think is an interesting question. Nit-picking? Sure. Negligible? Probably. But still fair game to talk about.
The number of DD bass you've caught and your chosen drag settings not only don't end the discussion, they are irrelevant.
OP: sorry for the hijack
Irrelevant! You are barking up the wrong tree.
The spool diameter does affect the torque applied to a drag washer.
Lets use extremes; 3" diameter spool with 1" diameter drag washer.
The line pulling on the OD of a full spool of line at 3" verses the same reel at 1" diameter of line on the same spool that equals the drag washer diameter. What do you think the torque differential will be equal to the full 3" diameter spool or less than the 3" diameter spool with only 1" diameter of line? The answer should be obvious.
The surface area of the 1" OD diameter drag washer doesn't change, the lever arm of line pulling the spool around changes as the spooled line diameter changes, the only force available, directly affects the torque applied to the spool shaft.
Tom
PS, let know if you have ever caught a bass, this is a fishing forum.
fissure_man reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 11:56 AM, WRB said:Irrelevant! You are barking up the wrong tree.
The spool diameter does affect the torque applied to a drag washer.
Lets use extremes; 3" diameter spool with 1" diameter drag washer.
The line pulling on the OD of a full spool of line at 3" verses the same reel at 1" diameter of line on the same spool that equal the drag washer diameter. What do you think the torque differential will be equal to the full 3" diameter spool or less than the 3" diameter spool with only 1" diameter of line? The answer should be obvious!
I'm aware of this, in fact it's been beaten to death in the above posts (mine included). What matters is the tension on the line to induce drag slippage. The same tension can be achieved for different spool diameters by adjusting the drag setting. Considering that anglers adjust their drags to their preferred line tension, regardless of spool diameter (or 'fullness'), the question becomes: is there any difference in performance and consistency of a properly set drag at different levels of spool 'fullness'. For more on this, re-read the thread.
Edit for clarity: I'm of course not saying that the discussion of spool diameter and how it affects drag performance is irrelevant to the thread (should be obvious from my posts), I was referring to your DD record and your 3-4 lb drag tension setting, which you presumably employ with spools of all diameters.
On 10/29/2016 at 11:56 AM, WRB said:PS, let know if you have ever caught a bass!
Good one.
WRB reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 12:38 PM, fissure_man said:I'm aware of this, in fact it's been beaten to death in the above posts (mine included). What matters is the tension on the line to induce drag slippage. The same tension can be achieved for different spool diameters by adjusting the drag setting. Considering that anglers adjust their drags to their preferred line tension, regardless of spool diameter (or 'fullness'), the question becomes: is there any difference in performance and consistency of a properly set drag at different levels of spool 'fullness'. For more on this, re-read the thread.
Good one.
The real problem with pre set drag force is leaving the force set for days without loosening the pressure. The drag bevel or cupped washers take a set creating very high initial breakaway forces that result in line or knot failure. This is a real issue not a hypothical, not related to spool line diameter.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 12:52 PM, WRB said:The real problem with pre set drag force is leaving the force set for days without loosening the pressure. The drag bevel washers take a set creating very high initial breakaway forces that result in line or knot failure. This is a real issue not a hypothical.
Tom
Real, but unrelated to spool diameter.
My "hypothetical" claims are about to be proven by Francho's 9-year-old, just you wait.
Edit: Please leave a note when you edit your posts, especially after they've been replied to.
WRB reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 12:59 PM, fissure_man said:Real, but unrelated to spool diameter.
My "hypothetical" claims are about to be proven by Francho's 9-year-old, just you wait.
Edit: Please leave a note when you edit your posts, especially after they've been replied to.
Don't need to wait, know the answer.
I often edite my post after getting a chance to read them, you just wait.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 10/29/2016 at 10:36 PM, WRB said:Don't need to wait, know the answer.
Great, can you clarify then what you're even disagreeing with? I'll do the same:
On 10/29/2016 at 4:26 AM, WRB said:Then you add wet multiple disks with double sides and heat, the formulas change.
Yes, but the relevant fundamentals are the same. Frictional heat generation is not a factor in determining the tension to induce initial drag slip. Your own posts imply that that rising drag temperature is not a huge factor in most bass fishing situations, because they don't make long runs, and I agree.
On 10/29/2016 at 4:26 AM, WRB said:No 2 drags operate with same friction coeffient because you must add heating to the equation
Fair enough, but we're comparing the same reel with different amounts of line. See above comments on heat.
On 10/29/2016 at 4:26 AM, WRB said:Bottom line; fresh water bass bait casting reels only need to operate efficiently to prevent line breaking when the bass is near the boat because that is when the forces can raise dramatically.
This is the most critical time that your drag will be tested, but my experience with smallmouths/low stretch braid/light leaders/light hooks shows that a decent fish can pull through the drag away from the boat as well. Hence the validity of at least discussing how spool fullness might or might not impact drag performance (ie: at the start or end of a cast, EDIT: and for spools filled to varying levels at or below their max capacity).
On 10/29/2016 at 4:26 AM, WRB said:Spinning reels is where a good smooth drag becomes important because of lower strength line is usually used and subject to failure more often.
Agreed. But most of this discussion could apply to spinning reels as well. And I'd argue that light line baitcasting is not unheard of, and is a rising trend in NA.
On 10/29/2016 at 7:21 AM, WRB said:The drag comparison is largely hypothical regarding fresh water bass because they don't make long hard runs without turning every 10 to 20 feet, rarely run directly away from the angler more then 20 feet.
It's not "hypothetical" or irrelevant to bass fishing, unless you've never had a bass pull through your drag. Drag performance, especially the consistency in tension to induce slippage is very relevant to bass fishing. An improperly set or poorly performing drag can cause you to lose bass, even if they're not towing you around the lake. On the other hand, your comments about heat generation and dissipation are not especially relevant, for the reasons you are stating.
On 10/29/2016 at 11:56 AM, WRB said:The line pulling on the OD of a full spool of line at 3" verses the same reel at 1" diameter of line on the same spool that equals the drag washer diameter. What do you think the torque differential will be equal to the full 3" diameter spool or less than the 3" diameter spool with only 1" diameter of line? The answer should be obvious.
This is essentially the same scenario I gave a detailed explanation of and expanded on in prior posts. The answer is obvious; how it could affect drag performance in actual use, is not. Which brings me back to the original question: which of these claims are you saying is false?
(PS: nit-picking, but the torque around the spool shaft generated by line tension is independent of the drag washer diameter)
J Francho reply :
I think we're done here...
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