Are Largemouth Bass Line Shy? 2024
WRB reply :
We have topics discussing fluorocarbon line, braid, monofilament line and various knots to join the different line together all in an effort to catch more LMB. My question is directed to one simple factor; are bass line shy?
If bass are not line shy fish, meaning their eye sight isn't designed to see tiny insects in low light like trout for example, why use a leader or FC line?
We discuss fishing in off color water, muddy water, gin clear water, mid day, mid night, can bass see the line in all these conditions.
The diameter of the line can and does affect a lures action, does it matter if the line is highly visible if the lures action is working good?
What are thoughts.
Tom
Paul Peixoto reply :
Alabama rig has 5-8 Steel leaders and they bite. So I would say no, with the exception of crystAl clear water
EvanT123 reply :
Depends. I know bass aren't the smartest creatures on earth but I think some may have different dispositions. Think about dogs. disposition can vary wildly between the same breed. It's kind of a nature verse nurturer argument. I think with most animals there is a risk vs. reward factor. They see a prey item and most likely make a snap decision. Strike or no strike. Kill or no kill.
What does this have to do with fishing line? Ever see how lions act during a drought? They display risky behavior. Does your dog eat his food when you leave the house? Probably not. He's saving that food because he doesn't know if you will return.
So is that bass hungry enough to hit that lure attached to 65lb high viz yellow braid or can he afford to pass waiting for a better opportunity. I dunno. I just keep changing it up till something works.
papajoe222 reply :
I don't know about bass being line shy, but I do know they tend to avoid more visible lines in clear water and under heavy fishing pressure situations when I'm using a slow presentation. I don't know if they just percieve that something isn't just right, or they actually see the line and react to it negatively. I don't believe they have that opportunity with faster presentations as they need to react quickly and focus on their target.
Scott F reply :
I don't know how anyone could say it's the line that made a fish avoid a bait. How could you know that? I have no doubt that fish may be able to see the line, I just question whether they can determine that something is wrong because they see it. There are many other factors in a bait that are un-natural. There are hooks, metal blades, wood, plastic, why is it the line that would make the bass turn away? If they are smart enough to figure out line is bad, how come they aren't smart enough to figure out the bait is not real food?
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
None of the thousands of bass Ive caught with braid in water that has 15' vis seemed to be.
doyle8218 reply :
On 1/25/2014 at 11:17 AM, Scott F said:I don't know how anyone could say it's the line that made a fish avoid a bait. How could you know that? I have no doubt that fish may be able to see the line, I just question whether they can determine that something is wrong because they see it. There are many other factors in a bait that are un-natural. There are hooks, metal blades, wood, plastic, why is it the line that would make the bass turn away? If they are smart enough to figure out line is bad, how come they aren't smart enough to figure out the bait is not real food?
I agree !!!
iabass8 reply :
Almost all the water that I fish is either stained or muddy but I use fluorocarbon for almost every application that I can. I don't use it for the "invisibility" factor. I believe, for me, its best attribute is its unrivaled slack line sensitivity and abrasion resistance. I suppose the gin clear California waters would be the exception due to its extreme fishing pressure where presentation is of the utmost importance in some instances but that's for the west coast anglers to decide.
WRB reply :
Interesting...what size and type of braid do you use without a leader?On 1/25/2014 at 11:24 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:None of the thousands of bass Ive caught with braid in water that has 15' vis seemed to be.
Tom
Scott F reply :
I've been using nothing but superlines for 10 to 12 years and have never used "clear" leaders. I use 8lb Fireline, 20-50lb Power Pro and 20lb Suffix 832. I fish clear Northern lakes and have also caught thousands of smallmouth, largemouth and northerns. Never saw any reason to even try a leader. The biggest thing that spooks bass I fish for is me and my boat.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 1/25/2014 at 11:44 AM, WRB said:Interesting...what size and type of braid do you use without a leader?
Tom
Braids 8,10,15,20# light green, dark green, brown, off-white number of different brands; non braid white 6#nano
Elegantly Wasted reply :
Great book to read:
http://www.amazon.com/Destroying-Bass-Fishing-Myths-Warren-ebook/dp/B00G10WDWQ
gr8outdoorz reply :
Im not sure how much bass react visually to line, however I do believe they can react negatively to the movement of lines. My background is trout which,as you said, have more acute vision, but bass still have a lateral line that detects those movements. When presenting slow moving baits I feel that it is the movement of the line more so than the visual aspect of it that would turn them off of a lure. I have seen numerous trout respond to line movement even when using 2lb test tippet on a fly rod. I would think bass would be similar as it is the lateral line that detects this movement. That being said, I feel this only applies to slow moving baits. I don't think it matters for reaction baits. Jus my .02
WRB reply :
When read the threads on this and other forums the vast majority of braided line users tie on a FC leader using Uni knots, Albert knots, etc...2 knots; 1 to splice on the leader, the 2nd to tie on the lure or hook.
Why?
Why would anyone use mono or FC line, braid is smaller in diameter, stronger, last longer, doesn't twist.
The answer is anglers believe bass are line shy and mono or FC will improve the size and number of bass they can catch.
I first learned to bass fish using Dacron braid tied directly to my lures....until monofilament line came of age. Like most bass anglers I also jumped on the FC line when it came out, believing the advertised low refraction low visibility ads.
The fact I fish gin clear water lakes makes it easier to think bass are line shy.
Are they?
At times the line size affects how fast or slow the lure falls through the water column or the lures action, this does affect strike reaction from some bass.
I know for sure transparent small diameter line gives me more confidence, the question is does it matter to the bass?
Tom
gr8outdoorz reply :
On 1/25/2014 at 1:53 PM, WRB said:When read the threads on this and other forums the vast majority of braided line users tie on a FC leader using Uni knots, Albert knots, etc...2 knots; 1 to splice on the leader, the 2nd to tie on the lure or hook.
Why?
Tom
Tom, I actually wonder the same thing. I only have a few rods with braid and on all of them I tie direct as I fish these in heavy grass. I use it for the cutting ability and strength for pulling them out of heavy weeds. You have posed a very good question. One that would probably be best answered by a biologist that knows the structure of a bass's eyes and brain. As fisherman we can only guess as to what they really see. As I stated before, I do feel line movement can turn them off of a lure. It could be the reason why so many finesse baits & slow moving baits are hit on the fall or not being moved, the line is not being moved by the fisherman.
WIGuide reply :
I'm not sure if line size really makes a difference, but I figure if downsizing gets me even one more bite a day, then it's worth it.
dam0007 reply :
Me personally I don't buy the whole "invisible to fish" spiel. I use flouro for sinking, mono for floating, and braid for heavy weeds. All work!
roadwarrior reply :
Whenever this topic comes up there seem to be some very good sticks on both sides.
I am undecided, but for the most part reached the conclusion that fluorocarbon leader
is an advantage. Stealth, abrasion resistance and the ability to break-off when necessary
is important to me.
Diggy reply :
I'm catching lots of Bass on 50lb high vis yellow PP with no leader. The water is pretty clear in the lake I'm fishing in.
MarkH024 reply :
Im a straight braid guy about 90% of the time and I catch plenty. The times I use a leader are for structure or cover reasons, not because I feel the bass can see the line. I also fish a lot of very clear water.
If an A-rig or alike isnt scaring bass off, then a single strand of line isn't going to either.
Drewski73 reply :
I use FC because I BELIEVE it gives me an advantage. Period. Logically, I understand I may be wrong. But, if I BELIEVE it helps me then Im going to fish a little slower, and Im going to stick with that bait a little longer. Eventually it will help me. Not because bass cant see FC, simply because I think they cant.
Last Sunday I caught two jig fish, they just werent up in the trees. One was caught on straight 65lb braid the other on 17lb flouro. I still belive FC gives me an advantage. Ill fish it until I dont believe that, knowing the whole time I may be wrong.
tgm reply :
I use braid for top water and heavy cover,FC for the rest.Works for me
Craiger12 reply :
I'm most of the way through Bill Murphy's book and he would strongly argue that bass are line shy. Although he is specifically talking about giant bass in high pressured lakes, so this may play a roll. I think I agree with Murphy for the most part. I feel that older bigger bass may be more line shy than the younger more aggressive ones, but certainly couldn't say for sure. I do use fluorocarbon with bottom contact presentations, but as already stated, I use it for it's density and sinking properties which contributes to its slack line sensitivity.
bigfishbk86 reply :
They absolutely are not line shy.
ccummins reply :
If you go with "hi viz" line it might but the "low viz" / transpearant colors shouldn't affect anything...
EvanT123 reply :
On 1/25/2014 at 1:53 PM, WRB said:When read the threads on this and other forums the vast majority of braided line users tie on a FC leader using Uni knots, Albert knots, etc...2 knots; 1 to splice on the leader, the 2nd to tie on the lure or hook.
Why?
Tom
I'm not the strongest guy in the world by any means; I can curl 30lb dumbbell a pretty good but cannot for the life of me break off braid. Even 10lb braid. So I like to tie a leader to make break offs and reties easier. Also trying to tie braid when it's windy can be a real pita. Also to avoid slicing my hand which still happens and to avoid snapping my rod under pressure. That's my reason more so than visability.
mjseverson24 reply :
I believe that bass can and do see lines in the water, and I also believe based on specific events that it can negatively effect the fishes attitude in wanting to eat a lure. here is some food for thought, I use FC now say that line visibility has no impact on bass, does me using FC decrease my chance of catching fish? NO... now say bass are affected negatively by visible lines, do I now have an advantage over visible lines? Absolutely...
Mitch
Team9nine reply :
Why would anyone use mono or FC line, braid is smaller in diameter, stronger, last longer, doesn't twist.
The answer is anglers believe bass are line shy and mono or FC will improve the size and number of bass they can catch.
Tom
Can only speak for myself and the way I fish, but the answer is simply because the advantages of using a fluorocarbon leader with braid outweigh the advantages of tying braid straight to my bait IMO. Obviously doesn't apply in all scenarios, but in enough to change my behavior.
1. Fluorocarbon, due to it’s density, provides a little extra weight at the end of the line to help baits stay down against the inherent tendency of the superlines, which are lighter density and actually float. This is more an issue when finesse fishing with small, lightweight baits.
2. The leader material also provides an inherent amount of stretch, which provides two benefits. The first is that it cushions the direct pressure of the almost no-stretch properties of the superline, which allows for better playing ability with big bass and small hooks, as well as overzealous hook sets. More importantly though, it allows you to use a traditional bow-and-arrow snap to free lures that get hung in rocks or limbs. This is a largely overlooked concept.
3. Fluorocarbon is a very tough material, and so a leader of fluorocarbon holds up well to constant fishing around things like rocks and mussels, cover areas that most anglers tend to believe are a weakness for superlines.
4. A leader also saves main line. I can start with a four to seven foot fluorocarbon leader and fish all day, retying as necessary and never get into my superline mainline until it’s time to replace the entire leader. This helps save and maintain the original length of superline spooled on your reel. You can easily fish an entire year or two on a single spool of superline as long as you don’t lose enough of it from retying.
5. With many finesse baits and lighter superlines, the thin diameter superline can actually get caught in or slip out through the hook eye in many cases. Using a leader of thicker material prevents this from happening.
6. And finally, yes, for anglers who are concerned about line visibility, a leader does help mentally in clear water situations. That psychological element can be very important to the angler and the way he fishes, whether it's a meaningless exercise as far as the fish are concerned or not.
WRB reply :
Let me play devils advocate;On 1/26/2014 at 6:03 AM, Team9nine said:Why would anyone use mono or FC line, braid is smaller in diameter, stronger, last longer, doesn't twist.
The answer is anglers believe bass are line shy and mono or FC will improve the size and number of bass they can catch.
Tom
Can only speak for myself and the way I fish, but the answer is simply because the advantages of using a fluorocarbon leader with braid outweigh the advantages of tying braid straight to my bait IMO. Obviously doesn't apply in all scenarios, but in enough to change my behavior.
1. Fluorocarbon, due to it’s density, provides a little extra weight at the end of the line to help baits stay down against the inherent tendency of the superlines, which are lighter density and actually float. This is more an issue when finesse fishing with small, lightweight baits.
2. The leader material also provides an inherent amount of stretch, which provides two benefits. The first is that it cushions the direct pressure of the almost no-stretch properties of the superline, which allows for better playing ability with big bass and small hooks, as well as overzealous hook sets. More importantly though, it allows you to use a traditional bow-and-arrow snap to free lures that get hung in rocks or limbs. This is a largely overlooked concept.
3. Fluorocarbon is a very tough material, and so a leader of fluorocarbon holds up well to constant fishing around things like rocks and mussels, cover areas that most anglers tend to believe are a weakness for superlines.
4. A leader also saves main line. I can start with a four to seven foot fluorocarbon leader and fish all day, retying as necessary and never get into my superline mainline until it’s time to replace the entire leader. This helps save and maintain the original length of superline spooled on your reel. You can easily fish an entire year or two on a single spool of superline as long as you don’t lose enough of it from retying.
5. With many finesse baits and lighter superlines, the thin diameter superline can actually get caught in or slip out through the hook eye in many cases. Using a leader of thicker material prevents this from happening.
6. And finally, yes, for anglers who are concerned about line visibility, a leader does help mentally in clear water situations. That psychological element can be very important to the angler and the way he fishes, whether it's a meaningless exercise as far as the fish are concerned or not.
1. How bouyant do you believe super braid is, keep in mind the diameter is 1/3 rd that of FC. Do you think it could float a size 4 mosquito hook for example? The answer is no the hook will sink braid. Ounce the surface tension is broken, braid become close to neutral buoyancy underwater.
2. How far do you think you can stretch FC line without it yielding and taking a permanent set at the stretched diameter? Answer about 30% tensile load. If you are using 15 lb FC and apply 1.5 lbs load, the line yields starts to stretch, at 5 lbs the FC line takes a permanent set, stays deformed and weakened. The weakest area is the knot.
Lets say your leader length is 7', try strechingv7' of FC line and measure the movement; how long it is at 1/3rd line strength and length it returns after stretching or it's elasticity.
3. FC line may be hard but it isn't cut resistant from sharp edges, therefor has less abrasion resistance than most mono line. Increasing the abrasion resistance also increases the memory to take a coil set on the reel.
Most anglers do not use FC line where zebra/quagga mussels are a problem.
4. Other than tying on lures, you shouldn't need to cut off braid to retie. You can reverse raid and use both ends of the spooled line.
5. Super glue prevents braid from moving.
6. We become more confident by catching bass.
Keep in mind there are two sides to this bebate. I am only pointing out facts.
I believe braid has some advantages and disadvantages. The only time I personally use braid is in heavy vegation cover because it cuts through the weeds.
I tried braid down to 8 lb on spinning finesse presentations without a leader and didn't see any difference in bass caught per hour verses 6 lb FC. However using FC leader on braid the lost bass due to knot failures was higher than all braid or all FC, on spinning reels. Braid advantage was no line twist, disadvantage was wind loops and digging down into the spooled line.
I may give braid another try this year jig fishing, after the pre spawn. Like everyone else I believe giant FLMB bass are line shy at times and 1 time could be a bass of a lifetime. 2 knots is 1 to many with FC line.
Tom
BassCats reply :
This is a good debate and I am amazed how well we are staying on topic. I only use mono when night fishing because of the fluorescent properties. They no longer make any fluorescent braids. I use Braid during the day and have not noticed a difference. I like the feel of braid and am comfortable using it in all situations. At night I have trouble seeing my line, and though I feel more with braid, I still line watch for most strikes. I have never had any problems with Mono either though. I do not feel that it stretches too much or anything, I just feel more with the braid.
Team9nine reply :
Those are all good points, Tom. To clarify, when I said "the way I fish," I should add that most of my braid fishing is done with finesse tactics - some might say ultra-finesse, though I don't classify it that way. My experience is based on catching thousands of bass every year, over half of which are with braid/fluoro outfits, as well as nearly all my crappie jigging outfits (another thousand fish/yr or so), and after having tested both (leadered and leaderless braid). So, I guess I would push back with:
1. - Doesn't matter how neutral braid becomes underwater after sinking. When trying to fish something like a small 1/32-oz or 1/16-oz. jighead or split shot rig along the bottom, and especially deep, you will notice a difference between the fluorocarbon leadered and non-leadered use of braid, especially if that leader is in the 4'-7' range or greater. It is also for this reason that some of the best finesse bass pros recommend going straight fluorocarbon when fishing deep water. The extra density does make a difference at times, though perhaps not near as much when using standard sized tackle and baits.
2. - Most guys will not generate 5lbs of force at the knot unless trying to pull their baits out of a snag, or a major hookset with heavier equipment; never an issue with finesse. If you get snagged and simply start "bow stringing" your line to get unstuck, you'll easily benefit from the stretch factor without ever reaching the point of plasticity you mention.
3. - As for abrasion, while it certainly depends on brand and formulation, there's not too many people that will tell you braid is better for fishing rocks and rocky bottoms. And while no line is cut resistant, testing done by Tackle Tour comparing fluorocarbon to their baseline monofilament showed that when wet, mono lost 50% of it's abrasion resistance and became less abrasion resistant than every fluorocarbon tested. As for zebra/quagga's, most all the guys I've spoken with or read about who fish the northern Great Lakes area (home) where they (mussels) are abundant, have all switched to using a fluorocarbon leader with their braid because braid alone cuts much faster when fishing in those conditions.
4. - I agree that if you are pretty settled on a particular bait for a particular outfit and don't need to change throughout the day, straight braid is better. This is probably more likely if you bring a whole bunch of outfits with you every trip. My hunch though is, I tend to think that most people are a bit more likely to change and retie lures more frequently than we think, whether to fish a different colored bait or to switch lure types completely, especially if they're not getting bit. If you use something like a Palomar and change baits frequently over the course of a slow day, you could easily lose several feet of braided line per day.
5. - Super Glue is alright if you like having one more thing to do every time you retie, and you are good at not gluing your fingers together. 
6. - I agree. As we've seen by posts here, some anglers need/want the psychological benefit, some don't. Whatever seems to help you catch the most fish is what you should be doing. On my waters, tying straight to braid, no matter the color, rarely if ever, makes any difference to the fish.
-T9
Scott F reply :
On 1/25/2014 at 11:55 PM, Craiger12 said:I'm most of the way through Bill Murphy's book and he would strongly argue that bass are line shy. Although he is specifically talking about giant bass in high pressured lakes, so this may play a roll. I think I agree with Murphy for the most part. I feel that older bigger bass may be more line shy than the younger more aggressive ones, but certainly couldn't say for sure. I do use fluorocarbon with bottom contact presentations, but as already stated, I use it for it's density and sinking properties which contributes to its slack line sensitivity.
I'm curious as to what evidence Bill Murphy presents in his book to support his theory about bass being line shy.
Joe Schmuckatelli reply :
I think this whole braid and leader stuff is a fad, they're selling it and your buying it
jhoffman reply :
Try this one some time. Get some different samples of line, a pair of goggles. Lay the line on the surface of a pool and look up at the line.
I think in certain situations yes they can see it, others not so much.
Ive seen the trout species reject a fly tied to 4x and hammer one tied to 6x. Those not in the know... 4x is 5lbs of break strength, 6x is 3lbs. Ive seen this happen both fishing dry flies and wet flies. At times when pressure is really heavy on C&R streams ive seen where the difference between 6x and 7x(2lbs) will change your day.
jhoffman reply :
This video at one point was only available for sale. I own the entire series but this is EXCELLENT and even if you dont trout fish, you should watch this all underwater footage.
http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/xzubsz
mnbassman23 reply :
On 1/26/2014 at 10:11 AM, WRB said:I believe braid has some advantages and disadvantages. The only time I personally use braid is in heavy vegation cover because it cuts through the weeds.
I tried braid down to 8 lb on spinning finesse presentations without a leader and didn't see any difference in bass caught per hour verses 6 lb FC. However using FC leader on braid the lost bass due to knot failures was higher than all braid or all FC, on spinning reels. Braid advantage was no line twist, disadvantage was wind loops and digging down into the spooled line.
I may give braid another try this year jig fishing, after the pre spawn. Like everyone else I believe giant FLMB bass are line shy at times and 1 time could be a bass of a lifetime. 2 knots is 1 to many with FC line.
Tom
Tom- I am a straight braid kind of guy 90% of the time and my fishing partner is 100% braid. I fish mostly heavily weeded lakes and more times than not visibility is in the .5-3 foot range. Personally I am unsure and undecided on my stance of this topic. There are numerous dimensions of line that could cause a fish to become line shy. Lake type and confidence has me fishing mostly braid.
I have a feeling that you have more insight to line shy bass than just the line I bolded in your statement above. You have a wealth of bass knowledge and if you would further your opinion i think a lot of us would appreciate it. You have posed a great question but not much of your thoughts on the matter.
How many anglers on your lakes do you think run straight braid setups? If it is not that many than do these bass realize what braid is? How does it affect them? Why does it affect them? Is it the color/visibility issue? Is it the action it imparts on the lure by floating vs sinking of fluorocarbon? Does any type of heavier line vs lighter line cause bass to become more line shy, even if its Fluoro? If so what is the factor causing them to become line shy? Is it due to visibility, can they feel the line itself, is it the difference in lure action, rate of fall, etc etc etc.
Every fish is different, every body of water is different, and peoples opinion differ. It's easy to say that bass are line shy, wether thats fact or marketing I'm not sure.
KDW96 reply :
On 1/26/2014 at 9:13 PM, jhoffman said:Try this one some time. Get some different samples of line, a pair of goggles. Lay the line on the surface of a pool and look up at the line.
I think in certain situations yes they can see it, others not so much.
Ive seen the trout species reject a fly tied to 4x and hammer one tied to 6x. Those not in the know... 4x is 5lbs of break strength, 6x is 3lbs. Ive seen this happen both fishing dry flies and wet flies. At times when pressure is really heavy on C&R streams ive seen where the difference between 6x and 7x(2lbs) will change your day.
Thanks for the link. Great video. You will learn somethings that will apply to bass also.I would like to have this series.
jhoffman reply :
On 1/27/2014 at 10:18 PM, KDW96 said:Thanks for the link. Great video. You will learn somethings that will apply to bass also.I would like to have this series.
No problem, the whole series is really worth owning. Information that in depth about outdoor subjects is tough to find. I have been building a library of important information to pass on to my son incase anything would happen before he is grown.
Felix77 reply :
IMO there are two "Rules of Thumb".
#1 - The "clearer" the water the "clearer" the line..
#2 - The slower the presentation the "clearer" the line.
Use the line which gives you the best advantage to meet both of those needs. Err on the side of "Clearer is better".
So for example
Clear water / Slow presentation like a shakey head/drop shot. I use 8lb FC and drag slowly along the bottom.
Clear water / moderate presentation like a swimbait, spinnerbait. I up the size to 12lb FC with a moderate retrieve.
Clear water / fast presentation like an alabama rig. I up it to 20lb FC with a moderate to fast retrieve.
stained water / Slow presentation like T-rigged worm or craw. I use 10lb Braid and drag slowly along the bottom.
stained water / moderate presentation like a chatterbait. I'm comfortable using 10lb Braid but generally stay with 12lb FC with a moderate retrieve.
stained water / fast presentation like an alabama rig. I up it to 40lb Braid with a moderate to fast retrieve.
One variance to my "Rule of Thumbs" 
Grass - You can treat grass like you do clarity IMO. This allows you to assess sparse cover vs thick cover.the same way.
That is why you can get away with a 65lb Braid Flippin' Stick setup in thicker cover situations.
JayKumar reply :
They are line shy at various times and places. It's impossible to say why, just note it and adjust accordingly.
Brian Needham reply :
everyone speaks of line and such but the coathanger of an Arig disproves it somewhat.
the fact that the Arig works better the clearer the water makes the line thoery even more blown up.
thats my story and I am sticking to it.
RoLo reply :
Between Ontario & Florida, I can't say that I ever noticed 'line-shyness' by largemouth bass.
I'm not saying that bass aren't shy, because they're real duds at social events 
Roger
trailer reply :
On 1/28/2014 at 3:30 AM, Brian Needham said:everyone speaks of line and such but the coathanger of an Arig disproves it somewhat.
the fact that the Arig works better the clearer the water makes the line thoery even more blown up.
thats my story and I am sticking to it.
That's what I keep thinking. Does anyone have any knowledge of what colors are visible at different depths? This may not be helpful looking at it from our eyes capability, but perhaps there is some scientific evidence of how the rods and cones in a bass' eyes operate and which component (rods or cones) are prevalent over the other.
ced reply :
This is one of those things like scent usage that no one has really done a good experiment on (that I'm aware of), it's all useless anecdotal information.
In some of our minds, especially those of us who fish clear water or sight fish, the less visible the line to our eyes the better. Of course this might not matter one bit, as most fish depend on their detection of vibrations and displacement of water over their sense of sight. I think it's safe to say what we see is not what a fish can see, they have those additional senses to accompany sight and there is no telling how their brain interprets that data.
With that said;
I'm always going to use the smallest diameter FC leader I can, while I have no evidence to support it helping get more bites, in my mind it is the best option available.
I spend 80% of my fishing time doing so by sight for redfish. While this is not the best data that could be available to us, fishing the same lure or fly with 20lb FC leader and 12lb FC leader doesn't seem to make a difference. There are countless days where the fish were spooky and changing from 20 to 12 didn't make a bit of difference. 20 is typically my standard for reds, and my buddy uses 15, and we don't have disproportionate bite numbers. I've never tested with braid straight to the lure or fly, but I will honestly never even try that, the advantages to FC as a leader outweigh braid (abrasion resistance, sink rate etc). Most of my bassing is in gin clear water so the same thing applies when I'm fishing them.
Now those are two completely different fish species, the bass being more of an ambush predator and the red being more of a hunter, but they both rely heavily on their sense of vibration and water displacement.
I always feel like if those fish are down to eat the line isn't going to stop them, but when they are being difficult I want the best option in my mind, even if it's only for a bit of confidence.
ColdSVT reply :
I noticed an increase in getting fish to eat in the saltwater world by dowsizing the leader many times with snook, reds, trout and tarpon. Now i was in the gulf and the water was very clear. However, was it that my lure had a slightly different action with the smaller line? Or was it the fish could see the leader? I dunno. But even with live bait i noticed a difference with lighter line and smaller hooks (especially with live bait)
Have i noticed this with bass? No i havent. I have found that downsizing baits can and does have an impact in various water and pressure conditions
mjseverson24 reply :
On 1/28/2014 at 12:31 PM, trailer said:That's what I keep thinking. Does anyone have any knowledge of what colors are visible at different depths? This may not be helpful looking at it from our eyes capability, but perhaps there is some scientific evidence of how the rods and cones in a bass' eyes operate and which component (rods or cones) are prevalent over the other.
There is information out there that describes what colors get filtered out of water and at what depths, also different minerals in water filter out certain colors differently. that being said the color that is filtered out does not become transparent if turns some shade of gray depending on the original color. I dont think many people on here argue that for moving presentations like the A-rig spinnerbaits and crankbaits line color will make much of a difference, it is the slow bottom contact or finesse like presentations where the more invisible lines shine and have the greater opportunity to impact the outcome.
Mitch
trailer reply :
True. The "reaction" strike would be less dependent on the type of line. What about multicolored line? Would different colors filter out different rates maybe breaking up the outline of the line? This is a great subject judging by all the different responses and disciplines in fishing.
A-Rob reply :
I think they can be if fishing clear water. I fish mainly grass and pads so I may get away with it though.
I did find going to heavy on my worm rod line decreased my bites. I figure that was either bc the bass could see it or the action of the lure was killed by such heavy line.
I've never needed a leader on my spinning rod with 10-15# braided line with largemouths.
Bass Menace reply :
I reckon the biggest problem I have with tying a leader is that instead of having one knot, I now have two. That drops my confidence level somewhat.
I bought some Suffix braid yesterday but they only had hi-vis yellow in the 30lb range, I was going to ask this very question. I am going to fish it without a leader and see what I can conjure.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 1/30/2014 at 3:54 PM, Bass Menace said:I reckon the biggest problem I have with tying a leader is that instead of having one knot, I now have two. That drops my confidence level somewhat.
I bought some Suffix braid yesterday but they only had hi-vis yellow in the 30lb range, I was going to ask this very question. I am going to fish it without a leader and see what I can conjure.
Conjure yourself a marker black brown green and color 4 feet or so of the line to the knot.
Bass Menace reply :
Darn... didn't think of that QnS! Thanks...
primetime reply :
I believe that there is no Right or Wrong Answer to this question. IMO, Confidence is the most important part of fishing, and if you are not confident fishing braid without a leader, than keep doing what you are doing. Some Guys Love High Viz Lines, some guys hate them.....
I talk to hundreds of fisherman weekly, and line is by far the most debated topic when someone asks me suggestions for tackle for a tournament, or for a fishing trip in local waters....
I like tying to Braid Directly when Flipping heavy cover & I use 40-65lb Braid, and I have confidence in Green, or darker shades of braid since it is not getting a leader...However, If I am fishing near sharp shells or rocks, docks, hard bottoms etc, I often use a leader that is clear and I personally like Yo-zuri Hybrid or any copolymer since it gives me better knot strength than Mono, and 20lb test is super strong and I rarely have break offs like I used to have with straight fluorocarbon...
I only like Fluorocarbon if I am fishing it as a casting main line, so I usually throw crankbaits and jerkbaits on 12-14lb fluoro so I only have to tie one knot. Maybe I don't tie the best knots in the world, but I have had fluoro knots break when tied to braid in Cold weather or from setting the hook too hard out of habit. I don't beleieve any line is invisible, and I always color my line with sharpies based on the color of the water I am fishing, and I may change the color of the last yard or two several times daily, and I always try to fish without a leader for one simple reason.....Less Knots equall less breakoffs for me, and more confidence fighting fish....I know guys who re-tie every half hour or after each fish, but I am not that patient. I love Mono as a leader for Topwaters only because of action, and braid by itself often gets tangled with topwater lures like a spook, so I will go with a heavy Mono leader and when fishing Topwater, Spinnerbaits, and reaction strike baits, I don't think line diameter matters much.
However, If I am finesse fishing "Pressured or spooked fish" I have found that on slow presentations like slow rolling a worm, or jig along the bottom, drop shots, split shot rigs...I try to go as light as possible with spinning gear, and I find that Clear berkley Fireline is perfect for a superline without a leader, or if I am really needing a strike, I will go straight 6lb Mono on a 4" worm or fluke without a weight, and I like Mono for the fact that it sinks slower and keeps my bait in the strike zone longer....
I guess my feeling is this....There are no wrong or right anwers but I think the most important aspect of line is making sure you have the right line that gives you the confidence to Land fish since often times landing a big Bass is harder than getting them to strike.......I love Suffix 832, Berkley Crystal for Spinning rods, and Yozuri Hybrid copolymer for heavy line, and straight mono or Fluoro on a few rods if I need to get a crank to dive deeper, so its more about the presentation then line shy.
RoLo reply :
On 1/29/2014 at 1:52 AM, ColdSVT said:I noticed an increase in getting fish to eat in the saltwater world by dowsizing the leader many times with snook, reds, trout and tarpon. Now i was in the gulf and the water was very clear. However, was it that my lure had a slightly different action with the smaller line? Or was it the fish could see the leader? I dunno. But even with live bait i noticed a difference with lighter line and smaller hooks (especially with live bait)
Have i noticed this with bass? No i havent. I have found that downsizing baits can and does have an impact in various water and pressure conditions
Predatory fish are all basically alike, they're all opportunists bent on surviving.
In saltwater, we trolled umbrella rigs a great deal for bluefish, striped bass & weakfish (weakfish is the northern variety of spotted seatrout).
I've tried all combinations of umbrella wire, tube leaders, hooks, surgical tubing & colors. I can't say for certain
that I've ever noticed any difference in success between heavy-wire umbrellas & light-wire umbrellas,
or between heavy tube leaders & light leaders (except that light leaders are more prone to intermingling)
Things that did make a noticeable difference were the method of threading surge tubes onto the hook,
adding a barrel-swivel to each umbrella arm and employing the correct style long-shank hook. Above all else,
the running depth of the umbrella rig was by far the most critical element of success, certainly not the color or diameter of the leaders.
I'm pretty sure I could've gotten away with drop-leaders made of Amusement Park cable,
attached to an umbrella rig with spokes as thick as octopus tentacles, but that would've created too much water resistance
Roger
RivasIsland reply :
I prefer to match the color line to the color water I fish, but I have caught bass on all types of line.
PondHunter reply :
One of the main reasons I use a leader is to prevent sunlight from "piping" down through the line all the way to the lure. A fish may not be able to see your line by itself, but if it's lit up like a glow stick they will. Obviously this doesn't apply to braid.
I have caught Bass in Minnesota on a guided trip using those cheap leaders that are silver and highly visible. On my home waters, it's so clear that using FC is a huge advantage, so it just depends on the conditions you're in as to whether or not you prefer a leader. I use them all the time because it takes that one variable out of the equation.
My Flippin' Stick uses Braid only, as the fish usually strike so quick i'm not sure they even see much of the lure, much less the line! On my UL outfits, where I use 4lb test, I just retie a 3ft section of the same line using a blood knot, on like a leader to prevent the light from piping down the line.
Bass Commander reply :
I caught my personal best on Power pro 30# braid tied directly to a super spook. I was walking the dog up against some lily pads and she nailed it. However I just don't know if bass care or not so nowadays I like to use a flourocarbon leader just in case.
WRB reply :
Well lets talk about the Classic and line used by the Sunday Elite anglers; no braid they all used FC line.
The reason, no weed beds, no reason to use braid.
This should tell you something or too stuburn to consider the facts.
A fast moving lure like a crankbait or school of A-rigged swimmers, the bass focus on the lures, line is secondary. Slower moving underwater lures bass may be very critical of line and wary enough to avoid striking. Depends on activity levels and school behavior.
Done with this topic, good fishing.
Tom
A-Jay reply :
My fishing line “arsenal” consists of braid & mono. Whether the braid or mono is used separately or braid with a leader depends on several different situations and techniques all of which have been thoroughly discussed in this thread or somewhere else on the forum.
As for if or when a bass can see my line or if they even care for me if strictly determined by results.
Initially, I will select a line to use that once the very biggest fish I hope to land strikes, I have the very best chance of landing. But realizing that I have to get bit first, I will modify my presentation until I’m getting bit. After which I have found my answer.
So until there is a line that has the knot strength of mono, the sensitivity and direct hook sets of braid and the stealth and abrasion resistance properties of fluorocarbon, I am resigned to the fact that there will always be some compromise.
A-Jay
FrogFreak reply :
I like to keep it simple.
Mono when I want some stretch (poppers, cranks)
Braid at all other times.
I'm pretty lazy when fishing so I like the fact that braid is easy. If I feel I should, I will use a FC leater but really, I don't think you need to.
I do like using heavy braid on my spinning outfits because they don't bite into the spool as often. Yes, braid is expensive but I can use it forever!
It's hard to prove a negative. If you fish FC and Braid and can actually somehow get the same exact conditions, then maybe you could prove this. Otherwise, I'm going to stick with a simple setup.
Iif you're worried about braid slipping out of your line tie, superglue the gap shut once and you are good to go. Also, leave a tag end on your polymar knot. Oh, that's another great thing about keeping it simple, I don't have to learn and remember a bunch of different knots.
Scott F reply :
On 2/27/2014 at 11:26 PM, WRB said:Well lets talk about the Classic and line used by the Sunday Elite anglers; no braid they all used FC line.
The reason, no weed beds, no reason to use braid.
This should tell you something or too stuburn to consider the facts.
A fast moving lure like a crankbait or school of A-rigged swimmers, the bass focus on the lures, line is secondary. Slower moving underwater lures bass may be very critical of line and wary enough to avoid striking. Depends on activity levels and school behavior.
Done with this topic, good fishing.
Tom
You are still applying human logic and reasoning to a largemouth bass. Bass do not have the mental capacity to figure out the connection between line and something they should not eat. As far as "facts" are concerned, the fact is, FC fishing line is not invisible. Just because pro fishermen did not use braided line in a tournament is not unquestionable evidence that largemouth bass are line shy. The almighty KVD himself still frequently states that FC lines have low stretch.That alone should be evidence that the pros, even the best of them don't know everything and cannot be relied upon to be the the basis of what is a fact.
Zach Dunham reply :
On 2/28/2014 at 1:29 AM, Scott F said:You are still applying human logic and reasoning to a largemouth bass. Bass do not have the mental capacity to figure out the connection between line and something they should not eat. As far as "facts" are concerned, the fact is, FC fishing line is not invisible. Just because pro fishermen did not use braided line in a tournament is not unquestionable evidence that largemouth bass are line shy. The almighty KVD himself still frequently states that FC lines have low stretch.That alone should be evidence that the pros, even the best of them don't know everything and cannot be relied upon to be the the basis of what is a fact.
He clearly said the line is secondary. He means the line doesn't matter as much as people think. The reason they don't use braid while cranking is partly because of stretch but it is also partly due to the fact that braid can fray when rubbing on rocks and whatnot. FC is much more resistant to that.
senile1 reply :
No one knows the answer to this. I suppose bass could be put off by hooks, hardware, line, trolling motor noise and vibration, sonar pings, etc., but we really cannot know for certain with the current state of study regarding bass. And just because bass bite lures with hooks doesn't mean that there aren't some bass out there that won't bite our lures because of the hooks, just as there could possibly be some bass out there that won't bite lures because of that unnatural line extending from it.
It seems to be a common human condition that many of us can't handle ambiguity. There is nothing wrong with saying, based on the evidence, I don't know and I can't know. We don't have to commit to a stance when perfect empirical evidence doesn't exist to support our stances. This can be applied to many other things that people debate as well. 
We just have to handle this on the water in a way that gives us the most confidence, and that will be different for each of us.
FrogFreak reply :
On 2/28/2014 at 3:14 AM, senile1 said:No one knows the answer to this. I suppose bass could be put off by hooks, hardware, line, trolling motor noise and vibration, sonar pings, etc., but we really cannot know for certain with the current state of study regarding bass. And just because bass bite lures with hooks doesn't mean that there aren't some bass out there that won't bite our lures because of the hooks, just as there could possibly be some bass out there that won't bite lures because of that unnatural line extending from it.
It seems to be a common human condition that many of us can't handle ambiguity. There is nothing wrong with saying, based on the evidence, I don't know and I can't know. We don't have to commit to a stance when perfect empirical evidence doesn't exist to support our stances. This can be applied to many other things that people debate as well.
We just have to handle this on the water in a way that gives us the most confidence, and that will be different for each of us.
Just to be sure, I think I'm going to stop using hooks on my lures!
bassin is addicting reply :
If they are smart enough to figure out line is bad, how come they aren't smart enough to figure out the bait is not real food?
X2
mjseverson24 reply :
they do figure out lures are not good for their health eventually, which is why you typically dont catch fish on the same lures that they did 50+ years ago at least not with the regularity that they did back then... the one thing that has remained constant throughout the years is a line is always attached to a lure, if you can somehow make that line less visible or noticeable I would say that is an advantage...
Mitch
Catt reply :
On 2/28/2014 at 7:59 AM, mjseverson24 said:they do figure out lures are not good for their health eventually, which is why you typically dont catch fish on the same lures that they did 50+ years ago at least not with the regularity that they did back then... the one thing that has remained constant throughout the years is a line is always attached to a lure, if you can somehow make that line less visible or noticeable I would say that is an advantage...
Mitch
Dang it! So I guess I'll have to start telling the bass they can't hit Jitterbugs, Zara Spooks, Pop-R, Snaggless Sally's, Mudbugs any more!
So I guess the bass I catch on those lures don't count?
bass1980 reply :
This debate rivals lure colors
frogflogger reply :
I use lines that I 'think' help in a specific situation - usually to do with not impeding action or presentation - not sure bass care but I do know really big bass are a different ball game altogether.
skeletor6 reply :
An interesting read on the topic. http://digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/oas_pdf/v59/p34_40.pdf
Elegantly Wasted reply :
On 2/28/2014 at 10:47 PM, skeletor6 said:An interesting read on the topic. http://digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/oas_pdf/v59/p34_40.pdf
Biggest problem with that study: depth of the water in the test tank is 30". We know visible light spectrum decreases as a function of water depth. At around 10 feet the only discernible color would be blue (yes I'm assuming fish have similar color discrimination to humans).
FrogFreak reply :
Didn't I hear that Bass have a 15 minute memory? I think PondBoss might have said that during his video.
FCPhil reply :
I can’t speak to fluorocarbon, I wrote it off long ago due to trouble getting reliable knots, but one thing I think is important to point out...if you watch underwater videos of lures using mono, the mono can very visible in bright conditions. Sometime it almost looks like a white fishing line.
The Bassman reply :
On 3/1/2014 at 6:06 AM, FrogFreak said:Didn't I hear that Bass have a 15 minute memory?
I know some people that must have bass genes. My ex was a LM.
BassWhole! reply :
On 2/28/2014 at 7:59 AM, mjseverson24 said:they do figure out lures are not good for their health eventually, which is why you typically dont catch fish on the same lures that they did 50+ years ago at least not with the regularity that they did back then
So great, great grandma bass is sitting down the fry and telling them the story of her first bau who fell for the Arbogast? This makes no sense.
CrankFate reply :
I don’t know. I often fish colored braid with short leaders. In clear water I’ve seen them watch the line go by and never bite. Other days they’ll happily get right behind the bait, wagging their tails and following it before they bite.
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