Demystifying Structure 2024
Catt reply :
After reading numerous posts and comments it has became apparent that most members here do not understand what structure fishing is. If you are an angler after any species of fish you will need to understand structure. It is very important because knowing what structure is, how to truly identify it, read it, and then fish it effectively, is the quickest, surest means of consistently putting fish in the boat.
When the subject of structure fishing comes up many people incorrectly assume you are referring to deep water fishing this is partially untrue. It doesn't matter if you are fishing bank shallow or 40' deep your are fishing structure that is if you are catching fish.
Never will fish be found that are not related to structure in some manner; this is why it is said that 10% of the water holds 90% of the fish.
RobDar reply :
I also feel that "structure" is most often thought of as "unnatural" physical obstructions like docks, trees, and other things in the water...and that is true, but structure can be natural as well...
the "structure" of a point...
the "structure" of a rock pile...
the "structure" of a weed bed...
Matt Fly reply :
Theres a difference in Structure and contours.
Matt
George Welcome reply :
In its pure form, structure is defined as relating to those permanent topographical differences within a body of water. Things that are temporary differences such as docks, trees, and grasses are considered as cover.
A point whether main or secondary, humps, canals, underwater levees, and ridges are all structure.
However, there are times when a temporary difference will relate to your fishing experience exactly as structure will. A solid grass line that presents a wall is a good example.
Both structure and cover present excellent locations for bass. Cover that relates to structure is even better in most instances.
There are many theories about why fish spend time in and around cover, but more than likely the most accurate would be because their prey uses that cover to hide in.
Why fish relate to structure is a bit more complicated. Water moves as a unit so the volume moving is constant. As the flow meets a restriction to its flow, the movement accelerates to accomodate the the volume. So for example, as flow meets a hump in the water it will accelerate over that hump as the volume moving cannot change. This increase speed of flow brings with it an easier flow of food as the accelerated flow disturbs the floating food chain. The increase in the flow of diatoms as an example bring the baitfish which in turn attracts the bass.
An excellent way to observe this is to study a weir. As the water flows toward the weir no current is obvious, however at it nears the weir the current increases and is visible. As the water flows over the weir the current increases dramatically.
How this all relates to fishing besides of course location, is the selection of bait. One fishing structure would do better to use faster moving baits than one fishing cover. A bait that will appear to being tossed about by the current would be another excellent choice which is why the Carolina rig is a highly preferred bait of choice on structure. Remember that the current increases in speed passing over the structure so look to the lee side of the structure for the most activity.
Another interesting note to this is water flow in itself can emulate structure. Looking at a simulation: we will assume a inflow of water coming from the west and a wind generating current to the south. Where might be an excellent location to find some fish in this situation?
Hookemdown. reply :
Cover: obstacle in the lake. (Brushpiles, docks, stumps, weeds..)
Structure: actual contour of the lake. ( creek beds, points, dropoffs...)
guest reply :
Kudo's to Catt for posting what is turning into one the more interesting threads on the boards right now.
George. Your knowledge is always impressive, but the reasoned, keenly intelligent post you wrote is among your best.
Better be careful GW. Your "good ole boy" rep, may take a hit if you keep waxing philosopical.
Personally, and I say personally because I base this on nothing but my experience, and intuition.
I think that for some reason it seems to be very important to us bass anglers to differentiate between "cover" and "structure"
I don't think the bass care much. The relate to "things" because that is their nature.
Whether it be for shelter, ambush, or comfort, it is pretty well accepted by most bass anglers, that the bass will be relating to something, or possibly several somethings. Figuring out what they might be on any given day is the difference between KVD and say a guy like................................................me.
jeremyt reply :
Thanks for this post it really clears up a lot of confusion for me, along with your other post in the deep water fishing thread. I the biggest thing I need to tackle now is associating the features of the lake with a topo map. I can read maps, but some of things I think I am seeing on a map aren't there on the water. I think I am seeing now that my past fishing trips that I thought I had planned out really well were just gunnin and runnin. Maybe there is some hope for this jarhead.
WhiteMike1018 reply :
Thanks Catt and George. Some great info.
Triton21 reply :
Great information Gentlemen. Thanks!
Kelley
Raul reply :
QuoteThanks for this post it really clears up a lot of confusion for me, along with your other post in the deep water fishing thread. I the biggest thing I need to tackle now is associating the features of the lake with a topo map. I can read maps, but some of things I think I am seeing on a map aren't there on the water. I think I am seeing now that my past fishing trips that I thought I had planned out really well were just gunnin and runnin. Maybe there is some hope for this jarhead.
Contour maps show the contour of the terrain below the water and important features that change the contour like channels, river or creek beds but it doesn 't tell you if there are structural features such as old dirt roads, sunken bridges, contructions, rock piles. A contour map helps but still you have to read your finder, structural features sit on top of the bottom contour. Want to see an example ?
Raul reply :
Two years ago the lake where I took that pic dropped to it 's lowest point ever ( not enough rain ), the only time I 've seen it so low was almost two decades ago, those ruins are usually under 30+ feet of water, those don 't appear on a topo map, the only thing that appears on a map is the contour of the bottom and the river channel not far from those ruins, those ruins are an important structural feature, while everybody is beating the bank I go and fish upon those ruins.
Bud reply :
Good info guys
Catt reply :
Now we have y'all thinking in the right direction
George & Raul actually added the next part of what I'm trying to convey to the least experienced anglers. Only now I'm going to have to rethink how to take this to the next level.
Here's some more fuel for thought 
Breakline: A breakline can have more than one meaning. It can be another word for a drop-off/ledge, or a point of any quick change in depth. It can also be used to describe the edge of a vegetation line. For example, a "weed break" is the area of the weed bed where the weeds meet up with open water; or, where one type of weed meets up with another. The last example happens when bottom composition changes, as different weeds prefer different types of bottom composition. In rocky impoundments, a breakline can also describe a line where rock meets mud, pea gravel, etc. In other words, the most correct definition for a breakline is "Any distinct line that is made by cover or structure which leads to an abrupt change in bottom depth, composition, or cover transition".
justfishin reply :
Catt and George,
This was a fine example of why this site is so informative. It gets all of us old hats to put our two cents in and really helps the young guys out. It also makes the older guys like me rethink some things. My instinct and the way I fish is this. I try to keep it very primal. Many variations such as wind, current, season, water temp, a slight variation in bottom structure or depth, a break, etc, etc, comes into play. But, as we all know, the bottom line, or base line for bass is procreation, food, and cover. Again, fantastic post, and great thoughts from all.
Raul reply :
Excellent description of what a breakline means Catt.
Catt reply :
Bass must have a visible path of breaks and break lines on a structure from deep water all the way to the shallows; which is where the bulk of food is available to bass. As bass move along a structure they pause or stop at "things"; breaks and break lines on the bottom. It is at such breaks that anglers can expect to make consistent contact with fish as they migrate along structure. This is why a certain stump or flooded tree, dock piling or submerged rock consistently produces bass for anglers. Most of the time such a spot is merely a break or bass stopping point on structure. Find more such breaks on the structure or break lines or even the deep water sanctuary near the structure then you'll find more and bigger bass more often.
There can be many structures, breaks, and break lines in a body of water. But only a few of them are so well related to deep water that schools of large bass consistently use them. The search for good fishable structure can be a quick one with much of the work done by simply studying an accurate contour map of the water.
Many of the best structures in a lake or river will have large fertile weed beds on them that harbor an abundance of minnows, crayfish and other bass forage. A weed bed a long distance from deep water with no "structure" linking the two will not be as productive as the weed bed on a structure having breaks and break lines near the deepest water in the area.
CJ reply :
Great info CATT and others who have added.
Just to clear something up,do you feel this info holds true on all fisheries in all sitiuations?
jaywag7 reply :
This is some great info. I do have one question though. What brand lake maps do you find to be the most accurate and detailed?? Also, I primarily fish in and around the Omaha, NE area. Most of the lakes I fish aren't very big. Are there any companies out there that sell maps of smaller lakes?? I haven't run across any yet, so I would assume not, but I thought I would ask anyway.
Thanks for the info!
Catt reply :
Terraserver.com or Topo Zone.com has topo maps & aerial photos of most of the world including lakes.
Bass relate to structure, breaks, & breakline regardless of the size of the body of water; in smaller bodies of water the size of the structure, breaks, & breaklines will also be smaller.
If some one truly wants to learn how to locate & catch bass on a consistent bases they would copy & paste this information along with Matt Fly's thread on bait fish into Mirco Soft Word & study it daily until it became second nature.
BassHunter69 reply :
Catt, great post!!!
Many people assume structure and cover are the same when they are not, simply because the 2 of them are used so interchangeablely. this is why a post such as this is so important in defining what structure really is. Any Bass angler worth his salt will know the differnce between these 2, but the true test is figuring out the hows and whys that bass relate to cover as well as structure. this alone seperates the good anglers from the greats such as bill dance,hank parker and so on. 2 heros of mine of course.
from this post we can determine that structure is
1. weed beds, rock bottoms, old sunken bridges, rip rap, drop offs, limestone cliffs, bridge supports, bank points, old road beds, flats, creak,and stream entry points from rivers and lakes, sunken trees or fences, are just to name a few.
Now lets take a look at cover which can relate to structure but in it self is not structure at all.
2. shady areas that provide camoflauge along the bank, docks, lilly pads, old boat garages, sunken timber such as lay downs (trees that fell in), boulders, brushpiles, are a few just so you get the idea.
There are times however when cover and structure do come together and those can be most excellent for bass, as well as other species of game fish.
Now what is best used as a bait on structure. This is where i like to use faster moving baits such as burning a worm or lizard which works now and then,also crankbaits such as lipped and lipless, swiming jigs with trailers, i also like swimbaits please remember to match the hatch, also football headed jigs and trailers, carolina riggs excell here, as well as grubs, dont forget rat l traps, and buzz baits here.
For cover its takes more finesse i belive. The lures you want to use are primarily weedless such as texas rigged worms, flukes, lizards and creature baits. i belive skin hooking is best. Tube baits and weedless swim jigs can work wonders also providing you match the hatch, another thing i like to use are swimbaits texas rigged or weedless, as well as grub baits, spinner baits ,also long lipped crank baits.
links_man2 reply :
I always think of structure as being something different, a change from everything around it.
SurferDave reply :
Great reading Catt.
One thing that I do just to try to help me visualize, is pick an area on land. Something familiar like a place you drive by going to work everyday. Then I think what it would look like under say 10 feet of water. Where would the structure or cover be that would hold bass? Then imagine where those places would be under 20 feet and so on. It helps me to see how that a point would run into a creek or how a ledge will transistion into flat areas. When I get to the lake(after looking at a topo map) I try to see how the structure blends into the shore. Then look for the cover on that structure.
afishaday reply :
I noted the reference to a Post by Matt Fly but I have not located it... can you point me to it? This thread was extremely helpful! and so I anticipate that one wil be too... and I need all the help I can get!
Catt reply :
Worth Repeating the key to consistently catch bass on page 2
Catt reply :
Since some refuse to search the site let me see this will kick to the forums
Lund Explorer reply :
Structure and Cover on Structure - The two most misunderstood things in fishing. Thanks for bringing this back up.
Fishing-Vol reply :
On 4/9/2012 at 7:16 PM, Catt said:Since some refuse to search the site let me see this will kick to the forums
I'm sorry, but I searched and searched.
You've already have some outstanding information so I'll just add the read the following
Demystifying Structure by Catt
http://www.bassresou...?num=1186055966
Bait Fish by Matt Fly
Part 1 - http://www.bassresou...?num=1134661967
Part 2 - http://www.bassresou...num=1134662267/
Power of Observation I & II by Raul
http://www.bassresou...um=1119546571/0
How come when I click on the link it just sends me back to the home page????
tnbassfisher reply :
Those links take me to the main forum page. But this is worth bookmarking.
Hooligan reply :
On 8/2/2007 at 7:59 PM, Catt said:Never will fish be found that are not related to structure in some manner; this is why it is said that 10% of the water holds 90% of the fish.
I agree with you wholly, with the exception of the above statement. There are instances in lakes across the US that black bass species become almost pelagic, not relating to structure at any time of the year outside the spawning period. These situations are rather unique, however. In most situations they're lakes with populations of fish that are solely reliant on baitfish; herring lakes, in particular, are a great example of this.
Catt, your description of breakline is spot on, as always. One could also get into the definition of a primary break, a secondary break, and a transition. When you consider a primary, it's typically the most abrupt change in gradient be it up or down. A secondary is most often relating to either a depression on the primary break, or it can also relate to a change in gradient angle anywhere along a primary break. Don't confuse it with a primary and secondary point. (IMO, defining a break as so, is somewhat unnecessary, unless you find that specific areas of a body of water are holding fish for a specific reason: A short shelf that sits in 11 feet of water while continuing the primary descent to 19') Bringing up that point also brings up the need to understand what you're looking at, be it on electronics or any other form. If you are seeing fish hanging at a specific depth in a lake and they're relating to the same break- well, there's the start of your pattern.
Considering the transitions is entirely different, to me. The word transition is used far too often in angling to describe too many things. I've heard it used to describe everything from fronts to overall weather patterns. I've heard it used to describe changes in bottom content to change in depth and gradient. While all of these may be true, a transition in its pure form is simply any change in bottom content. It has nothing to do with anything else. It's based entirely on structure and content of the lake bed. Fish will relate to transitions at different times of year based on different reasons. Brown fish, for instance, prefer large rock transitioning to soft bottom. Green fish often prefer a transition from soft, vegetated bottom to a hard bottom lacking cover. Not all the lines of a transition will hold fish, and there are reasons for that, as well. Fish will tend to key on one structural element or another; when you find that situation, repeat it as often as possible.
North Ga Hillbilly reply :
Glad it was put out in such a easy to understand way. It was a long time before I knew the diff between structure and cover. It really helped as soon as I got the diff. Ive recently started looking into the connection between structure as the main magnet, and then cover as the next place to look after finding the right structure.
Good stuff
NGaHB
Traveler2586 reply :
On 8/3/2007 at 9:22 AM, Catt said:Bass must have a visible path of breaks and break lines on a structure from deep water all the way to the shallows; which is where the bulk of food is available to bass. As bass move along a structure they pause or stop at "things"; breaks and break lines on the bottom. It is at such breaks that anglers can expect to make consistent contact with fish as they migrate along structure. This is why a certain stump or flooded tree, dock piling or submerged rock consistently produces bass for anglers. Most of the time such a spot is merely a break or bass stopping point on structure. Find more such breaks on the structure or break lines or even the deep water sanctuary near the structure then you'll find more and bigger bass more often.
There can be many structures, breaks, and break lines in a body of water. But only a few of them are so well related to deep water that schools of large bass consistently use them. The search for good fish-able structure can be a quick one with much of the work done by simply studying an accurate contour map of the water.
Many of the best structures in a lake or river will have large fertile weed beds on them that harbor an abundance of minnows, crayfish and other bass forage. A weed bed a long distance from deep water with no "structure" linking the two will not be as productive as the weed bed on a structure having breaks and break lines near the deepest water in the area.
Catt, are you a student of Buck Perry, the farther of structure fishing??
Catt reply :
Yelp
Catt reply :
Hooligan, if one were to take a look at the bottom of the body of water where those bass are "keying" on herring" they still following structure.
The statement is "Never will fish be found that are not related to structure in some manner", this does not mean the fish will be located on the bottom!
Transition: passage from one state, stage, subject, or place to another
Bass "transition" from winter areas to spawning area
The weather "transitioned" from spring into summer
Don't complete a simple process of structure
Nitrofreak reply :
When we talk about fishing structure, how is it determined when to fish deep structure and shallow structure?
Shallow being, IMO, the easier one to find fish during spawning months.
If we do not have the means of expencive electronics to help us find the fish, is it the shad patterns we follow?
For example: Gizzard shad and threadfin shad are common forage in my home lake, I know that gizzard shad frequent deep,fertile water usually until spring, then they head for shallower water to spawn just like bass in the spring, if I were to key in on bait schools that are deep these should be gizzard shad and the bass follow the same structure to be able to feed for their up coming spawn, is that anywhere close to being correct?
Fishing-Vol reply :
On 4/10/2012 at 12:26 PM, tnbassfisher said:Those links take me to the main forum page. But this is worth bookmarking.
Exactly. But I still can't find Matt Fly's bait fish post, because the link doesn't take me to the post. I also can't go to other links that are in good posts.
Catt reply :
Nitrofreak, I do not own expensive electronics, I do own an understanding of structure, bass, prey and the relationship of the three.
Shallow and deep are relative to the body of water you are fishing.
Depending on the size of the body of water "shallow" may have nothing to do with the shoreline.
Take Toledo Bend for an example there are bass out on the main lake that never have and never will see a shoreline.
Nitrofreak reply :
First of all, thank you for the reply catt, it means a lot !!!
I was not referring to shoreline as shallow water, at least that was not my intention, my apologies for being misleading.
Although site fishing would be much easier, at least you know for sure you are in the right spot lol.
Fishing structure has always been my favorite thing to do, very rarely will you find me pounding the shoreline, unless the shoreline has enough structure to hold bass, however fishing structure has also been my weakness a lot of times when the things I read lead me to where there should be fish and find only that they are not anywhere close and leaves me scratching my head thinking, all of this great information can't be wrong, I must be the one at fault.
The key I suppose is to be on the water a ton to understand or get a better understanding of the structure you are fishing and how it relates to why the bass travel a particular path or even stop at a particular point of interest.
Fishing-Vol reply :
On 4/11/2012 at 7:30 AM, Fishing-Vol said:Exactly. But I still can't find Matt Fly's bait fish post, because the link doesn't take me to the post. I also can't go to other links that are in good posts.
Well, after many hours of searching and scanning, I finally found the advanced search icon. And by using the advanced search, I was able to find many posts and the links worked to other posts that are great reading also. Baitfish, know your shad, and many others that I can now bookmark and read. Catt, Matt Fly, and others, thank you.
Catt reply :
Nitrofreak, while all fish relate to structure in some manner not all structure holds fish. Re-read the top of page #2 to learn why!
While spending a ton of time on the water will help the key to understanding what structure is prime structure is to first understand the available food source.
It is said some the best bass anglers are also excellent deer hunters because they understand where the deer bed down, where the available food source is throughout the year and how the deer travel unseen from one to the other.
They follow structure: ridges, hills, valleys, creek/river bottoms, edges of wooded/fields, fire lines and logging roads.
Bass fisherman are bass hunters
Nitrofreak reply :
Thanks a ton catt, and others !!!
This will give me a newer approach to fishing areas of my home lake and a whole lot of homework to find the answers to as well.
As I look forward to the new challenges, I also find that it's hard to believe that one three letter word, when asked, opens new chapters in our ever changing, always evolving, personal fishing journal's.
Why?
I think I have forgotten to ask myself this one word far too many times in the past, the results of my last few trips reflect that as well.
Catt reply :
There comes a time when it's easier to kick up an old thread!
Team9nine reply :
On 1/5/2014 at 12:05 AM, Catt said:There comes a time when it's easier to kick up an old thread!
...Or simply recommend everyone to pick up and read a copy of "Spoonplugging: Your Guide to Lunker Catches" over the winter. Saves a lot of typing, and covers the subject more thoroughly than any forum posts could. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak...
-T9
Catt reply :
Or both
Todd2 reply :
Good thread Catt, thanks for bumping it back up.
Munkin reply :
On 1/5/2014 at 3:19 AM, Todd2 said:Good thread Catt, thanks for bumping it back up.
I agree! This information is a lot better than the normal "what is your favorite color senko". Personally I struggle with structure fishing in lakes and it is what I have been working on the last couple of years. Most of the lakes around here are deep and clear which make them tough to fish in the summer. There is one in particular that I can catch a 20+ lb bag in the spring but struggle to catch 5 keepers during the summer. I know the fish move deeper but cannot figure them out at all.
Allen
basscatcher8 reply :
Glad to see this thread back at the top. Always enjoy reading through it and pick something new I missed before in it.
Hattrick7 reply :
This is some good stuff! I still can't find the post from Matt Fly. Even tried a google search to no avail.
Catt reply :
The post from Matt Fly is under the best of
Hattrick7 reply :
And there it is thank you sir
Ted Kaufman reply :
@George Welcome -- Excellent post, George. Nice job of defining structure and cover. "Welcome" clarity!
TorqueConverter reply :
On 8/2/2007 at 9:58 PM, Hookemdown. said:Cover: obstacle in the lake. (Brushpiles, docks, stumps, weeds..)
Structure: actual contour of the lake. ( creek beds, points, dropoffs...)
This. People calling trees "structure" makes me pull my hair out.
deep reply :
Let's see if I can help add to the discussion.
Catt, you talk about deep water. Do you mean the deepest water (as in a feeder or main creek channel) in the area?
Also, let's discuss fishing a break line on a structure. Say a ledge running on a point. Do we parallel it, fish over and across it, pick a piece of cover on it and fish that? All of the above?
aavery2 reply :
Fish the part of the break line that is in contact with the deepest water in the area, if the break line does not come in direct contact with the deepest water in the area, find a part of it that has breaks that lead to the deepest local water and fish them.
Catt's conversation is based from what I can tell on Buck Perry's terminology, if you familiarize yourself with his(Buck Perry) definitions it helps to keep everyone talking apples to apples.
Catt reply :
Older translations have come under revisionism, which is the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing definition.
Revisionism is an aspect of cultural dissemination of misinformation!
deep reply :
Thank you. I was hoping some of the members newer to fishing structure would take this forward.
The problem I see is the stage the thread is at now, there's precious little to add. Maybe some questions then? Seemingly basic questions can generate new viewpoints.
Perry's book is gold.
I don't use some of the terminologies. For example, when I say "transition", I always mean transition of bass seasons, from winter to pre-spawn etc. Sharp (relative of course) changes in some parameter relevant to the reservoir bottom are called breaks in my book. Depth breaks, or bottom composition/ O2/ temperature changes, they are all breaklines to me (always related to hard/ soft structure, never cover*).
I also don't agree with his deep to shallow migration theory unless we're talking about seasonal movement. That's another matter of course.
* A weed-edge/ vegetations type change points my way to a break. But weeds don't stop growing without a reason. Maybe there's little sunlight penetrating that depth, or different species of vegetation prefer different substrates.
RoLo reply :
(Inserted as per Catt's request):
When Bill Dance was asked, "Which is more important, Structure or Cover?", Bill replied 'structure'.
This in no way diminishes the importance of cover, but it underscores the hierarchy of 'structure'
For every holding site pinpointed on my charts, there are often 2 or more satellite waypoints. Only ONE waypoint however
will be founded on bottom contour (structure), a fixed location I call a 'static waypoint' for my own edification.
In sharp contrast, plant density, weedline configurations and even plant species are in constant transition.
For instance, our favorite weed pocket or weed finger from last year, may be a little different, extremely different
or completely absent this year (Mother Nature doing her job). Changeable waypoints based on plant mergers, dense tufts,
weed alleys and weed points I refer to as 'dynamic waypoints'. Although the structural nucleus remains
essentially fixed, the dynamic waypoints tend to waltz around the static waypoints.
Here's the nice thing about differentiating between the two (between static & dynamic waypoints).
If your DNR (fish & game commission) kills the vegetation down to the ground, or if your lake undergoes
a severe and prolonged drawdown, you are still in business. All your static waypoints (structure numbers)
will serve as jump-off points for establishing your new dynamic waypoints (cover numbers).
Roger
aavery2 reply :
What's amazing to me is how well some of the older fisherman were able to find subtle break lines understand and visualize the structure, and find isolated brakes without the use of modern electronics. I have heard stories that Rick Clunn was among some of the best at this.
Team9nine reply :
On 1/8/2015 at 5:54 AM, deep said:Let's see if I can help add to the discussion.
Catt, you talk about deep water. Do you mean the deepest water (as in a feeder or main creek channel) in the area?
Also, let's discuss fishing a break line on a structure. Say a ledge running on a point. Do we parallel it, fish over and across it, pick a piece of cover on it and fish that? All of the above?
Not Catt, so I don't want to speak for him, but Perry had clear definitions of "deep water" (water greater than 8'-10'), as well as stating in his basic guideline that the "deep, or deepest water in the area being fished" was what he considered the 'home or 'sanctuary' depth. He also stated that ideally, this would always be at least 20' deep, though he also realized that those depths aren't always an option on some waters (or sections of waters), and made clear how to address/fish such situations and what to expect in the way of fish behavior.
On 1/8/2015 at 10:45 PM, deep said:Thank you. I was hoping some of the members newer to fishing structure would take this forward.
The problem I see is the stage the thread is at now, there's precious little to add. Maybe some questions then? Seemingly basic questions can generate new viewpoints.
Perry's book is gold.
I don't use some of the terminologies. For example, when I say "transition", I always mean transition of bass seasons, from winter to pre-spawn etc. Sharp (relative of course) changes in some parameter relevant to the reservoir bottom are called breaks in my book. Depth breaks, or bottom composition/ O2/ temperature changes, they are all breaklines to me (always related to hard/ soft structure, never cover*).
I also don't agree with his deep to shallow migration theory unless we're talking about seasonal movement. That's another matter of course.
* A weed-edge/ vegetations type change points my way to a break. But weeds don't stop growing without a reason. Maybe there's little sunlight penetrating that depth, or different species of vegetation prefer different substrates.
I'm pretty old school in this regard, and stick to the original terminology as best as possible. The problem becomes, if we all can't agree upon, or all choose to use our own definition of any of these terms, or our own terms completely, there is likely no way we will ever come to agreement on things because we're not starting and arguing the merits based on the same words and definitions. It also makes it tremendously confusing for any newer anglers, or anglers unfamiliar with structure theory, to figure out what is right or wrong when everyone has their own terms and definitions.
On the deep-to-shallow migration theory, that is a bit oversold in my book. He later tweaked that concept slightly, and the basic guideline that has been in place now for the past 20-25 years addresses this supposed happening. He wrote about this extensively in a 1986 article entitled, "What I Did Not Say About Structure Fishing."
Oops - on the ledge running on a point...I'd need to have a clearer picture of exactly what you are envisioning to be able to give a definite answer. The basic procedures are always, troll the shallows, then cast the shallows. Then troll the deep water, then cast the deep water, at least to properly fish a particular structure thoroughly, and assuming the waters (and regs) are conducive to doing so. You always interpret from the deepest water, but begin fishing in the shallowest.
-T9
Catt reply :
We can sit around bruising egos over difinitions or we can glean from what's before us.
Deep water is relevant to the body of water you are fishing!
Question: are bass predators?
Yes we believe they are!
When a predator is hungry it hunts! It does not have to "migrate" but it does move from its home to an area with a sufficient food source. How far does it move? As far as necessary to find a sufficient food source.
deep reply :
On 1/9/2015 at 12:23 AM, Team9nine said:
Oops - on the ledge running on a point...I'd need to have a clearer picture of exactly what you are envisioning to be able to give a definite answer. The basic procedures are always, troll the shallows, then cast the shallows. Then troll the deep water, then cast the deep water, at least to properly fish a particular structure thoroughly, and assuming the waters (and regs) are conducive to doing so. You always interpret from the deepest water, but begin fishing in the shallowest.
-T9
Thank you. Now we might have something going.
That was just an example; and as you pointed out, there are a bunch of factors that'll influence the correct answer. I do not know the correct answer myself, since I don't catch that many big fish (small ones don't count) to pattern it. I do know some of the factors it depends on, so I know what to start with (for the particular break I'm thinking of).
deep reply :
Also, please refresh my memory a little. Perry has like eight or nine books, right? I think I read only two.
Anyway, **You always interpret from the deepest water, but begin fishing in the shallowest.**
The first part I understand, but tell us why we must start fishing from the shallowest.
Team9nine reply :
Perry's main book was "Spoonplugging: Your Guide to Lunker Catches", often referred to as the Green book. He also had a smaller booklet called "Spoonplugging for freshwater bass and all game fish" which preceded the Green book. Then there was the 9-part home study series that came after the Green book, and went into a lot more detail on specifics. Then there are a ton of old articles he wrote while Education Editor for Fishing Facts (~105 or so, I believe).
As for fishing shallow first, Buck basically created a process anglers should follow to quickly figure out where the fish are and how you can catch them. In many cases, especially in instances of a body of water being fairly new to you or that you haven't fished much, you start shallow for several reasons.
- First, it gives you a defined process to quickly eliminate water layers systematically to determine where fish are active (or not). Start shallow and work deeper until you start catching fish, instead of just assuming or haphazardly jumping around trying different depths.
- Also, shallower fish tend to be a bit more active, usually there to feed. Being more active, you can usually get by with a little less perfect presentation - they'll frequently move to the bait instead of you having to put it right on its nose.
- You also get a chance to get a feel for the lake, seeing cover options like weed growth and weedlines, checking bottom hardness, determining water clarity, finding possible structures, etc., all things that might help point you in the right direction when trying to catch fish on a lake. Doing so also helps you learn a lake. Buck always stated he never wanted to come off a lake not knowing more about it than when he first arrived. This process helps in that regard.
- Additionally, you tend to have better lure control shallow. The deeper you go, usually the more accurate your presentation has to be. Anyone can drop a jig into a bush in 4' of water, but put that same bush on a breakline in 25' of water, and how many people can now drop that jig into the bush? The fish still tend to use the bush (a "break") the same way regardless of depth.
Of course, if you are very familiar with a lake or some of its specific structure situations already, you can go straight to fishing the known contact points, breaks and breaklines appropriately without going through the whole process if you choose to. Consider it a shortcut for the hard work you already put in, if you will. Doesn't always work out, but saves time if it does. The simple fact is every fishing day is different. Some days you might whack them on top of a point fishing a topwater, and others days you won't catch any unless you're dragging a football jig deeper on the same point. Having a process you use every time out to quickly establish depth can be a nice benefit to anglers.
-T9
Catt reply :
What we had here was a discussion identifing defining structure, & breaklines.
This discussion spawned several others all in these time frame. Two were Matt Fly's Know Thy Shad, two were mine All Lakes Have It & my favorite structure. There's one by Raul but its title fails me. Next came discussions on fishing grass.
Yo have a portion of a thought process, you need to find the rest.
RoLo reply :
1940s to 1960s
I was fortunate to grow up in an era when you could learn from the angling pioneers in ‘real time’.
As a kid, I remember discovering a goldmine called “Lucas on Bass Fishing” authored by Jason Lucas.
Jason’s insight was far ahead of his time, and most of what he professed during the 40s and 50s,
still holds true today. I was still trying to digest Jason’s book, when I found a diamond-in-the-rough
called “Spoonplugging” written by Elwood “Buck” Perry. More than the father of structure fishing,
Buck Perry repeatedly demonstrated the critical importance of depth control and speed control
by trolling his own self-devised “Spoonplugs” that run at predefined depths.
When you inspect a Spoonplug in your hand, it kind of debunks the ‘match the hatch’ theory,
because Buck centered his focus on 'precise delivery' (depth - speed - action).
1960s to Date
Fish are cold-blooded, instinct-driven creatures that lack the power to reason.
Humans are warm-blooded creatures with the power to reason, but our instincts are seriously underdeveloped.
When man pits intelligence against instinct, the odds are high that he’ll end-up outsmarting himself.
In the final analysis, no man has ever solved all the mysteries of our sport, and even the greatest mentors
who contributed the most, had their fair share of misconceptions.
During the late 60s, I well recall when Al and Ron Lindner began writing highly technical articles
for “Fishing Facts” magazine. Their in-depth, scientific approach was not every fishermen's cup-of-tea,
but the Lindner brothers catapulted Fishing Facts magazine to new heights. Then in 1975, Al & Ron Lindner
launched their own “In-Fisherman” magazine. To this day, I still have the red & white publications
they called “Study Reports”, where each study report was an encyclopedia equal in scope
to a yard-high stack of garden-variety magazines. The In-Fisherman staff went headlong into radio tracking,
which disclosed many unexpected results. Telemetry studies reinforced some tenets and degraded
some tenets proposed by James Henshall, Jason Lucas, Elwood Perry and Homer Circle.
As it happened, Uncle Homer was the only pioneer who lived long enough to witness radio-tracking findings.
To be sure, largemouth bass move from lounging quarters to feeding grounds, but only move as far
as necessary, and always welcome the opportunity to bundle both events at the same location.
As a result, radio-tracking studies have shown that daily movements, on balance, are shorter than
previously believed. As in all facets of fishing though, there are always exceptions that prove the rule.
The biggest telemetric surprise was learning that largemouth bass strongly resist depth change,
that their movements tend to be horizontal. In most radio-tracking studies, there is one or more renegades
that will undergo a long, inexplicable migration, sometimes crossing the entire lake. Even during these
extended migrations though, the movement was essentially lateral with no significant depth change.
This is likely due to the bass's swim bladder, which makes a bass work harder when changing water depth.
In any case, wide changes in depth are mostly a seasonal event that take place over time.
According to diving excursions conducted by In-Fisherman, the greatest depth changes were normally seen
during a cold-front, but the movement tended to be vertical rather than horizontal (not what most anglers visualize).
During warm, stable weather periods, bass tend to rise gradually in the water column, higher along
standing timber or higher in a weedbed. Inversely, bass tend to move down to the bottom during a cold-front.
Although bass depth is changed, water depth may remain the same (again, not what most anglers visualize).
Needless to say, bass in deep water are not as susceptible to cold-fronts occurring in the troposphere,
and may even be unaware of its presence. During cold-fronts, the In-Fisherman staff additionally noticed that
some bass assume a very reclusive position, with their nose on the bottom and their tail angling upward.
Roger
MFBAB reply :
Do any of y'all seriously think that if they had SI and 1' contour maps on the boats in Buck's day, that he'd have ever invented the Spoonplug? He made those things to drag around and map out the lake. It's already done for us today. Basically every pro out there and a lot of serious recreational fishermen have 2 large units at the console these days, 1 for mapping and 1 for sonar/DI/SI-and then another 1 or 2 units on the bow that are synched up with the others. Perry just had his Spoonplugs to map out the lake bottom. He had a few pre-lake contour maps but there wasn't any such thing as GPS then so they weren't much good.
The point is, he had to do it the hard way, and Spoonplugging (the green book and the additional materials) was revolutionary material at the time, and for most who read it today IT STILL IS!! I just read it the first time maybe 10 years ago, and it changed my life as far as fishing goes. I think you need to at least read it to really be able to participate in the conversation when it comes to the structure topic, it's pretty much the 101 course; and I don't mean that in a demeaning or basic way, I mean it to say that it lays out the language and organizes the framework for us to move forward from and build on.
Was it perfect? Nah. But it's still far ahead of what the majority of the fishermen you meet at the lake know today. They mostly just know how to copy or imitate what they see other guys doing, try to get on a bent pole pattern. Only a handful know (or even want to know) the why's - like why are the fish at the depth they are at? Why are they doing this or that? They just want to know what bait so and so is throwing-like that means anything. Have you ever tried to read a fishing report in the paper and then go do what it says to do and actually catch fish? It doesn't happen often. You have to learn to read the current conditions and make the percentage decisions on your own.
Today, we have this huge head start over what Buck had. Today, A guy can map out, study and waypoint an entire lake from his computer at home before he ever even launches a boat at a given lake for the first time. Human beings amass knowledge over time, from generation to generation. Almost all of the answers are out there when it comes to fishing these days, fortunately for the fish though, most of us don't read the books and learn from the past. As comedian Chris Rock famously said: "Hide your money in your books!"
I say, read Perry, read Lucas, Murphy, Hannon, read all of the classics on bass fishing, there are many good book lists discussed here. Also, spend some time with the search function here, they don't call it bass resource for nothing. Then, spend time fishing and testing what you've learned, and not just bass fishing. The idea is to always ask questions and always go in with the attitude of trying to prove something you read wrong (test it), not right. Sort of like the Scientific Method. That is how you learn. None of this stuff applies universally, every lake is a little different, but trends will emerge the more experience you get. Structure, water clarity, weather, seasonal trends, how to select baits based on these factors and more, this is the knowledge you are seeking.
Also, read that manual that came with your Humminbird or Lowrance REAL good too!!
If you study all of those famous books, and famous threads here, and famous magazine articles, and watch all of the tourneys and fishing shows, and mix that in with all of your own personal experience (which should be logged in detail after all of your trips), and then put all of that knowledge up against what that sonar and your baits are telling you on the water today, you still get skunked a lot of days :):) J/K, the picture starts coming together faster and faster the more good sources of info you put together, and the more questions you ask.
Half the time, when I set out to find the answer to one fishing question, I almost always find the answer to a couple of other ones in the process. The learning curve today is so drastically reduced from what it was even 15-20 years ago. The answers are really all out there, but you still have to put in the time. The advantage today is that it's really hard to get off on a lot of dead-end tangents if you're doing your homework. You don't have to learn too much from trial and error nowadays if you've got google and like to read books.
Here's a good article on structure: http://rbbassfishing.net/bass-fishing-tips/bass-science-whats-the-point/
Hope this helps someone. The article originally had some great diagrams that don't seem to be included in this link, so here they are:
Catt reply :
That man gets it.
Team9nine reply :
On 1/25/2016 at 10:10 AM, MFBAB said:Here's a good article on structure: http://rbbassfishing.net/bass-fishing-tips/bass-science-whats-the-point/
Hope this helps someone. The article originally had some great diagrams that don't seem to be included in this link, so here they are:
My old friend RZ, he'll be tickled you shared the article. Too many triangles, lines and arrows for me to follow , but Rich has always been one step beyond...
-T9
Nitrofreak reply :
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, I went back and re-read this for what I hope is a much clearer picture, at least I feel like I have a much better understanding.
If I am starting to understand then may I ask a question or two? I would like to use the saddle in the above picture, when we hear about the occasions of fish coming shallow to feed and returning deep, is it most likely that areas like these saddles may be used as reference?
They may or may not be directly in the saddle itself, that they may position themselves on the point or on the ledge or elsewhere, but where they position themselves has more to do with time of year? does anything seem to determine where they will most likely position after coming shallow to feed or, because each body of water is different we need to explore all the options?
Catt reply :
While those pictures are nice they show no cover, cover will form breaklines, bass will follow breaklines.
Nitrofreak reply :
So basically it's picking out plausible structure like the one pictured and exploring it to it's maximum.
Looking at the picture it shows a weed line, could that not be considered a breakline if the weeds were dense enough or am I thinking too much?
Or is a weed line simply determined by a round about depth knowing that grass has a hard time growing past the 15 foot mark?
Catt reply :
Breaklines are defined on page one
MFBAB reply :
On 1/25/2016 at 10:26 PM, Team9nine said:
My old friend RZ, he'll be tickled you shared the article. Too many triangles, lines and arrows for me to follow
-T9
Ha ha, I don't know him personally, but I understand what you;re saying
I like that article and the pictures because he labels all of the spots well. I thought it would add a good visual to some of the terminology for people.
Nitrofreak reply :
Obviously I don't understand as much as I thought I might LOL, I swear I did read the whole thing again and I thought it made sense, ok if I am not being too annoying I wish to make sense of what I am looking at in the picture, maybe I am projecting my questions in the wrong way, maybe I am not getting it at all, I have points just like these on the waters I fish, in fact, this one in particular in the picture is almost a mirror image of one on my home lake.
During the summer months on high pressure days (bright sunny days) correct me if I am wrong about that terminology, I can find them up shallow in and around the patches of grass and around various stumps on the point (my home lake has very little grass due to the over abundance of carp that was introduced) so understanding structure is even more important to me, during the day after the morning bite has deteriorated they will move into the saddle or I will find them out on the deeper point, much like the one pictured, I guess I am trying to make sense of why they would locate themselves in such an area.
MFBAB reply :
For the sake of consistency, Here are some of Buck Perry's definitions:
BREAK — Where structure is no longer uniform due to dips, or a quick drop in depth, rocks, stumps, bushes, sunken objects, etc.
BREAKLINE — A line on the bottom where there is a definite increase or decrease in depth, either sudden or gradual such as the edge of a channel, hole, or gully; the "wall" of a weedline, brushline; where two bodies of water meet which differ in temperature, color, or movement (current).
BRUSH LINE — The edge of a line of brush.
CLEAN BOTTOM — Bottoms free of debris, muck, moss, etc.
CONTACT POINT — The position on structure where contact is first made by fish on their migration from deep water.
DEEP WATER — Water that has a depth greater than eight to ten feet.
DIRTY BOTTOM — Bottoms covered with debris, muck, moss, etc.
DROP-OFF — The place on structure where there is a sudden or rapid drop into the deepest water, such as a hole or channel.
FINGER — A projection or extrusion, in a lake bottom formation (structure).
HARD BOTTOM — Bottoms with a firm condition, usually associated with sand, clay, rocks, gravel, etc.
HOME — The deep water areas where fish spend most of their time.
MIGRATION — Movement of fish from one section of water to another. Normally used when speaking of a depth change.
MIGRATION ROUTE — The path fish take as they move from deep water to shallow water, or vice versa.
MOVEMENT — Closely associated with migration, but also meaning when fish become active (opposite of dormant).
OPEN WATER — Water free from vegetation growth, and away from shoreline.
POINT — An extrusion in the shoreline that extends into and under the water.
PRESENTATION — The way lures and bait are presented or displayed, to the fish.
SCATTERPOINT — The depth, on the bottom, where fish start to separate and scatter and are no longer grouped together.
SHALLOW WATER — Water less than eight to ten feet in depth.
SHARPER BREAK — A more rapid increase or decrease in depth than the surrounding area; steeper, more acute (see "breakline").
SOFT BOTTOM — Bottoms covered with soft silt, mud, muck, marl, etc.
STRUCTURE — The bottom of the lake with some unusual features that distinguish it from the surrounding bottom area.
WATER COLOR — The degree of clarity.
WEEDLINE — The edge of a line of weeds.
MFBAB reply :
On 1/26/2016 at 5:36 AM, Nitrofreak said:So basically it's picking out plausible structure like the one pictured and exploring it to it's maximum.
Looking at the picture it shows a weed line, could that not be considered a breakline if the weeds were dense enough or am I thinking too much?
Or is a weed line simply determined by a round about depth knowing that grass has a hard time growing past the 15 foot mark?
Here ya go:
BREAKLINE — A line on the bottom where there is a definite increase or decrease in depth, either sudden or gradual such as the edge of a channel, hole, or gully; the "wall" of a weedline, brushline; where two bodies of water meet which differ in temperature, color, or movement (current).
You're basically right, grass will tend to thin out at a given depth based on water clarity and light penetration.
Nitrofreak reply :
Well, if I am basically right that means I am soaking up something right LOL ! Thanx MFBAB for all the help !!
Catt reply :
Nitro, you must keep in mind Buck is the starting point but he is not a stopping point. His definitions were valid for the time period in which they were written!
Example: We now understand that bottom compositions has more to do with where a weedline is is formed than water depth or water clarity. Some types of vegetation simply will not grow on certain bottom compositions. The place where two different bottom compositions meet is a breakline.
In rocky environments, a breakline can also describe a line where rock meets mud, sand, pea gravel, extra.
Shallow water & deep water is relevant to each individual body of water. In larger bodies of water shallow & deep can be relevant to a specific area. Out on the main lake of Toledo Bend 20' is shallow water or in the marshes of southwest Louisiana 5' is deep.
Nitrofreak reply :
Thanks Catt, I am remaining open minded about this whole thing I promise, what I am trying to understand and maybe I just have not gone over enough of the structure with a good sonar that I have in question, but, I am finding groups of fish on my lake in places that have no discernible breaklines to speak of, not like a creek channel or a ledge or even a change in the feel of the bottom from one type of structure to another where you can say Hey, this is what the guys were speaking about, I remember a post in the beginning where GeorgeWelcome was introducing us to current, I am left assuming that there may be an underlying current of some magnitude in this area even though I can not feel one with my bottom baits that I use, would current aid in the process of making structure like this productive?
Team9nine reply :
On 1/27/2016 at 1:21 AM, Nitrofreak said:I remember a post in the beginning where GeorgeWelcome was introducing us to current, I am left assuming that there may be an underlying current of some magnitude in this area even though I can not feel one with my bottom baits that I use, would current aid in the process of making structure like this productive?
Two quick points:
- Yes, current is just another form of (creates) a breakline
- A great quote from Don Dickson to keep in mind: "Now look, it's the breakline that forms the structure. If you have no breakline, you've got no structure - you've got a flat."
OK, one more... Remember, Buck stated that a fish can be caught most anywhere, at most any time, on most anything. He even wrote about fishing backwater areas far from deep water and filled with vegetation, or shallow weeded over ponds. However, his "guidelines" were written in order to put the odds in his favor when approaching any body of water and trying to find and catch fish as quickly as possible. He felt the most catchable fish would be those found on or around the structure situations in a body of water. Similar to Catt's comment, they are not absolutes that negate finding or catching fish elsewhere in a body of water. They are guidelines to allow you to eliminate water in an orderly fashion to arrive at the fish regardless of where you are located in the most efficient fashion.
-T9
Nitrofreak reply :
On 1/27/2016 at 2:42 AM, Team9nine said:Two quick points:
- Yes, current is just another form of (creates) a breakline
- A great quote from Don Dickson to keep in mind: "Now look, it's the breakline that forms the structure. If you have no breakline, you've got no structure - you've got a flat."
OK, one more...
-T9
Thank you very much !!!
Rahlow reply :
Team9nine
“Also, shallower fish tend to be a bit more active, usually there to feed. Being more active, you can usually get by with a little less perfect presentation - they'll frequently move to the bait instead of you having to put it right on its nose.”
Somewhere around 99% of the bass fishermen will also be found “thrashing the shallows” lol
ps: y’all making my head hurt.....lmao
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