Will A Bass Stop Feeding Altogether? 2024
Jar11591 reply :
What does everyone think? Say a bass lived in a very pressured waterbody, and he gets caught by fishermen routinely. Do you think it could ever get to a point where the bass begins to associate the act of feeding entirely with getting hooked, so he stops feeding altogether until he starves? I know this is true in some mammals, if they begin to associate eating with pain then they eventually will not eat. I know bass are not self-aware and can't feel pain, but I'm talking purely instinctual. And I'm not talking about a bass getting wise to a certain bait, because I know that can happen.
flyfisher reply :
no because they are alive for two reasons, to eat and to reproduce.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:14 AM, flyfisher said:no because they are alive for two reasons, to eat and to reproduce.
That is what I thought, until I read studies about mammals who exhibit this exact behavior. They will eventually starve to death if they entirely associate eating with physical pain. They are re-conditioned basically to where their instincts tell them eating causes pain.
A-Jay reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:14 AM, flyfisher said:no because they are alive for two reasons, to eat and to reproduce.
Ah, the good old days . . . . . . . .
A-Jay
Grizzn N Bassin reply :
Hmm im not sure i think that they would become conditioned to the lures and presentation. i bet they will realy make sure its what they want and be certain its reel. but then again theres live bait to catch them .
flyfisher reply :
I would like to see those studies...
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:26 AM, Grizzn N Bassin said:but then again theres live bait to catch them .
That's where it gets good. Think of a bass living in a heavily pressured lake, and over a span of, say, 4 years it gets caught dozens and dozens of times on every lure and live bait possible. I'm still not sure either way but it's definitely interesting.
Montanaro reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:22 AM, A-Jay said:Ah, the good old days . . . . . . . .
A-Jay
College?
Grizzn N Bassin reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:31 AM, Jar11591 said:That's where it gets good. Think of a bass living in a heavily pressured lake, and over a span of, say, 4 years it gets caught dozens and dozens of times on every lure and live bait possible. I'm still not sure either way but it's definitely interesting.
As i was writing it i was thinking well it would just eat live things and make sure ,then i thought about the live bait. yea i see where your coming from but the studies id like to see are stress levels of fish and the damage it causes. (If any) also the many threads on here about can fish feel pain (which a no, im taking it as a bass feels pressure). Where did you find the study of mammals who stopped eating.
gulfcaptain reply :
They won't stop eating, but they will change their feeding habits. Here in crowded S. Cal, the city park fish get too much pressure they simply shut off during the day and change their feeding habits to nights since we aren't technically supposed to fish those places at night after they close the parks.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:27 AM, flyfisher said:I would like to see those studies...
Lol that is only fair, but unfortunately it was a high school thing. But I will direct you to this magnificent website that might solve your doubts.
www.google.com
gulfcaptain reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:22 AM, A-Jay said:Ah, the good old days . . . . . . . .
A-Jay
I remember those days, it was called being single without children. I altered my feeding habits depending on how much money I had left after bills and of course the going out fund.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:36 AM, Grizzn N Bassin said:Where did you find the study of mammals who stopped eating.
High school back in the day....wouldn't even begin to know where to find it now.
Montanaro reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:31 AM, Jar11591 said:That's where it gets good. Think of a bass living in a heavily pressured lake, and over a span of, say, 4 years it gets caught dozens and dozens of times on every lure and live bait possible. I'm still not sure either way but it's definitely interesting.
If you are referencing learned helplessness, then the bass would would need to be caught every time it attempts to eat and considering bass can and have been caught with successive casts...The physical impact on the fish isn't what you think.
aavery2 reply :
Try searching for Pavlovian bass. I think your what your doing is a form of anthropomorphism. Bass are not smart.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:39 AM, Montanaro said:If you are referencing learned helplessness, then the bass would would need to be caught every time it attempts to eat and considering bass can and have been caught with successive casts...The physical impact on the fish isn't what you think.
I guess what I'm saying is, would a bass become so picky due to being caught on so many different things so many times, that his instincts tell him to pass up all the available forage until he eventually dies during the search for food? I'm not talking fishing pressure and how that effects it physically. Again I don't believe one way or another.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:47 AM, aavery2 said:Try searching for Pavlovian bass. I think your what your doing is a form of anthropomorphism. Bass are not smart.
It has nothing to do with a bass being smart, because obviously bass are not self-ware, nor can they feel pain or make decisions. Read the post again. You obviously missed that part. I'm talking purely instinct, exactly like a bass can get wise to a certain type of bait.
Jar11591 reply :
What I'm saying is, just like a bass can develop the instinct to avoid a certain bait, could it eventually do the same to enough forage similar to lures it's been caught on that it has no food source? I don't know if it could, but it's just something I was pondering over.
aavery2 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:51 AM, Jar11591 said:It has nothing to do with a bass being smart, because obviously bass are not self-ware, nor can they feel pain or make decisions. Read the post again. You obviously missed that part. I'm talking purely instinct, exactly like a bass can get wise to a certain type of bait.
for something to be considered instinctive, it must be performed without prior experience. Your more in the realm of conditioned response, and a bass in the wild is very unlikely to exhibit this.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 8:05 AM, aavery2 said:for something to be considered instinctive, it must be performed without prior experience. Your more in the realm of conditioned response, and a bass in the wild is very unlikely to exhibit this.
Conditioned response...Thank you, that it the term I was looking for. I guess not so much instinct. I should have used that term in the original post. I re-read my last response to you, sorry for the way I worded it. Not my intention, all good natured.
aavery2 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 8:09 AM, Jar11591 said:Conditioned response...Thank you, that it the term I was looking for. I guess not so much instinct. I should have used that term in the original post. I re-read my last response to you, sorry for the way I worded it. Not my intention, all good natured.
interesting topic, something else I seem to recall from school is that instincts can not be overridden. They can not be turned on and off, so a bass striking at a lure will most likely continue to do so regardless the outcome, unless the outcome is a frying pan.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 8:19 AM, aavery2 said:interesting topic, something else I seem to recall from school is that instincts can not be overridden. They can not be turned on and off, so a bass striking at a lure will most likely continue to do so regardless the outcome, unless the outcome is a frying pan.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that for this to be possible it would have to be every time the bass attempted to eat like you said. But in that case it would just die of starvation before the "conditioning" happened.
flyfisher reply :
And also you are making the assumption that begin caught results in a negative response.....i read a study where they tested bass and their reactions to being caught. Some it didn't bother at all and were caught upwards of 20 times in a year while others were caught 5-6 and this was all on the same lure and the same conditions.
Hyrule Bass reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:00 AM, Jar11591 said:What does everyone think? Say a bass lived in a very pressured waterbody, and he gets caught by fishermen routinely. Do you think it could ever get to a point where the bass begins to associate the act of feeding entirely with getting hooked, so he stops feeding altogether until he starves? I know this is true in some mammals, if they begin to associate eating with pain then they eventually will not eat. I know bass are not self-aware and can't feel pain, but I'm talking purely instinctual. And I'm not talking about a bass getting wise to a certain bait, because I know that can happen.
if he gets conditioned to associate eating to getting hooked, then he would also get conditioned to the fact he got put back in each time. the bass would continue to eat, they aint that smart...
A-Jay reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:39 AM, gulfcaptain said:I remember those days, it was called being single without children. I altered my feeding habits depending on how much money I had left after bills and of course the going out fund.
Sounds about right ~ My first 5 years in the service.
A-Jay
slonezp reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 8:38 AM, flyfisher said:And also you are making the assumption that begin caught results in a negative response.....i read a study where they tested bass and their reactions to being caught. Some it didn't bother at all and were caught upwards of 20 times in a year while others were caught 5-6 and this was all on the same lure and the same conditions.
I've caught the same fish multiple times in one day. Not an isolated incident either.
flyfisher reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 8:51 AM, slonezp said:I've caught the same fish multiple times in one day. Not an isolated incident either.
me too...
WRB reply :
There is a population of bass in every lake or pond that never strike lures and a population of bass so aggressive they never learn to avoid lures. The over aggressive bass in high pressured lakes end up in a frying pan or swallow soft plastics and starve to death or become so mutilated from hooks ripping their mouth apart or hooks in the gullet they no longer can feed on live prey and starve.
Bass are a lower animal than mammals, smaller brain and unable to perceive live prey isn't the same as lure. Some bass can determine that a lure isn't live prey and avoid it and they do!
Tom
RoLo reply :
The survival instinct would prevent any healthy animal from fasting until death.
The only animal that stops eating is one that's morbidly ill, to the point of no return.
Roger
FlipnLimits reply :
Emo bass, goth bass, and now suicidal bass. LOL No, they will not starve themselves to death. And YES, they eat the same bait over and over and over and over again. We still catch bass on the same lures in the same lakes for decades and centuries. And most bass die within 10 years, so they did not Condition themselves to avoid the same lure. Simplify, don't complicate what is so easy to understand. If you fished a small pond for just 2 months, you would never catch a bass again if they were so smart. This goes in a general train of thought, not necessarily to the OP.
FL
z7master167 reply :
They say goldfish have a 7 sec memory amplify that to bass and maybe a 2 day memory
Jar11591 reply :
I think bass "smarts" need to be taken out of the equation here. A bass is in no sense of the word "smart". Everything it does is an instinctual reaction to its surroundings and situations. It does not think, or decide. Bass do become active before a thunderstorm, almost predicting it, but again it is not attributed to the bass brain power. It's all instinct and environment. Salmon and trout return to the stream or tributary that they were born in to spawn, sometimes hundreds of miles away. It's not because they are "smart", it's because that's how they are wired. It's purely instinctual.
Catt reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 9:44 AM, WRB said:There is a population of bass in every lake or pond that never strike lures and a population of bass so aggressive they never learn to avoid lures. The over aggressive bass in high pressured lakes end up in a frying pan or swallow soft plastics and starve to death or become so mutilated from hooks ripping their mouth apart or hooks in the gullet they no longer can feed on live prey and starve.
Bass are a lower animal than mammals, smaller brain and unable to perceive live prey isn't the same as lure. Some bass can determine that a lure isn't live prey and avoid it and they do!
Tom
Please explain to this dumb Cajun how any one could possible know every bass in any body of water and if they have ever bit a lure or not?
Catt reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:37 AM, gulfcaptain said:They won't stop eating, but they will change their feeding habits. Here in crowded S. Cal, the city park fish get too much pressure they simply shut off during the day and change their feeding habits to nights since we aren't technically supposed to fish those places at night after they close the parks.
Exactly!
If ya really wanna kick bass on Toledo Bend fish it during the middle of the week
gulfcaptain reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 11:37 AM, Catt said:Please explain to this dumb Cajun how any one could possible know every bass in any body of water and if they have ever bit a lure or not?
There has been studies done that a percentage of bass are more cautious and wary of their surroundings while others have a more aggressive nature. Not sure where I remember seeing or reading it(may have been in pond boss) but someone was working or studying a way to bring out the more aggressive nature. This may have been a topic on Florida strain vs Northern as the northern were a more aggressive strain opposed to the Florida's which have grow bigger. Tom like myself I'm sure has watched many fish here in S. Cal follow lures, study them with interest and then stick their nose up at our offerings. This is true with the trout fed fish. The bigger fish are more cautious and odds are they have learned due to the amount of the fishing pressure. But then there are a few bigger fish that have the more aggressive nature that do get caught. But with all that said, it has been shown that I think its around 20-30% (shot in the dark) of a population of fish do not strike or haven't been caught due to their genetic nature of being wary and cautious. You asked, but I'm just a guy that fishes and has lots of useless info until it's needed by someone at which time it becomes useful.
WRB reply :
Didn't know you considered yourself a dumb Cajun, I don't. Didn't say every bass. Electro shock studies on lakes and ponds that bring to the surface bass larger than reported being caught in those waters and tracking studies where bass being tracked move when boats approach. Have these bass ever been hooked??On 4/16/2014 at 11:37 AM, Catt said:Please explain to this dumb Cajun how any one could possible know every bass in any body of water and if they have ever bit a lure or not?
Catt reply :
Ok here we go again!
Guys I've worked around Marine Biologist all my life, someone has to drive the boat & know the body of water. I'm very close to a degree in the Philosophy of Science so y'all aint getting no cherry!
Guys that's 100% speculation, but I guess if it's one fish it could be considered "a population" of bass. We would have watch every bass 24/7/365 to draw that conclusion.
Just because electro shock shows larger bass than reported does not equate to "it never struck a lure".
gulfcaptian, what you are referring to is the breeding of the F-1 Tiger Bass which is a cross of Northern & Florida bass, breed for aggressiveness & fast growth. The result is a bass that is easy to catch which is why they are popular in ponds.
Nice try, keep at it y'all will get there! 
roadwarrior reply :
Well, this is just my theory based on observations over the past three years on
the Tennessee River, specifically Pickwick. During this three year period more
double digit bass have been reported than in the entire history of the reservoir.
The vast majority have been caught using The Rig. It is my hypothesis that these
fish were "uncatchable" and therefore had NEVER been caught. The Alabama
Rig triggers a response in bass that they cannot ignore: a ball of bait in their face!
Perhaps a better example was Dottie. The fish was caught or snagged several
times, but ONLY on bed during the spawn. For the most part, she was "uncatchable".
We don't have a Dottie here in the Mid South, but we have a lot of DD bass hidden
in the bushes, so to speak.
Brian Needham reply :
didnt we just have like a double digit page thread on this?
A-Jay reply :
Will A Bass Stop Feeding Altogether ?
Often times it certainly seems like they do, at least around these parts; and especially during daylight hours from about mid July to mid August.
But night time is a completely different story.
A-Jay
WRB reply :
I believe the OP ? was will bass stop feeding because the developed a fear of lures and will starve.
The answer to that is NO!
Tom
Catt reply :
RW would you not agree, that during some part of that 3 year period some of those DD bass were 7-9 lbs bass?
Brian Needham reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:54 PM, Catt said:RW would you not agree, that during some part of that 3 year period some of those DD bass were 7-9 lbs bass?
OK here is a question...... many of those were 11+, a few 12+ and one I know of would have been a new state record at 15+
question is: Do they gain that much weight prespawn? ]
all of those I have seen caught were caught Feb- April
WRB reply :
Consider the Schwartz La Peria lake pure Florida bass experiment to grow a world record bass. The pure Florida strain were so difficult to catch Schwartz added F1 NLMB-FLMB strain into his lake so clients could catch bass.
Electro shocking showed the Peria lake was full of big bass, few were caught.
So now we saying big bass have good memories avoiding lures and smaller bass are more aggressive...could be. More than likely the big bass learned to avoid angler pressure by locating in sanctuary areas. The A-rig maybe successful exploiting those sanctuary zones. Consider the world record smallmouth were caught be trolling mid lake zones, today bass anglers don't troll.
We are so far off topic now.
Lake Miramar in San Diego had a population of giant bass living under the boat dock, about 20 bass between 15 to over 20 lbs. The water was like swimming pool clear and easy to see these giants. In a 10 year period 3 bass over 18 lbs were caught, 1 was a floater at 21.3 lbs.
Tom
flyfisher reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:40 PM, A-Jay said:Will A Bass Stop Feeding Altogether ?
Often times it certainly seems like they do, at least around these parts; and especially during daylight hours from about mid July to mid August.
But night time is a completely different story.
A-Jay
The question is it because of other factors or because they are conditioned that those are the peak times of angler use and they "learned" not to eat artificials.
As far as the big bass go, my non-scientific take is that big bass get the prime locations in a lake. What bass view as prime locations and what anglers view as prime locations are complelty different. The majority of hte information you glean from pros are not about the largest bass in a lake but rather the largest bass that can be caught and fill up al ivewell. In reading information on truly giant bass hunters, their mindset is completely different as are their approaches to catching true monsters. They may go days without even a bite but when they do, it is worht the wait, That luxury is one that isn't afforded to the majority of anglers out there without a serious time commitment and also why the seasonal act of the spawn is when many big bass are caught. The bass instinct of spawning over rides everything else and makes them more vulnerable and has them leave their normal haunts.
I would love to be able to target larger bass all the time but since my fishing time is somewhat limited right now i am happy catching decent fish and a few big ones in there if possible.
00 mod reply :
All fish must eat to survive!
Just sayin.
Jeff
A-Jay reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 11:39 PM, flyfisher said:The question is it because of other factors or because they are conditioned that those are the peak times of angler use and they "learned" not to eat artificials.
As far as the big bass go, my non-scientific take is that big bass get the prime locations in a lake. What bass view as prime locations and what anglers view as prime locations are complelty different. The majority of hte information you glean from pros are not about the largest bass in a lake but rather the largest bass that can be caught and fill up al ivewell. In reading information on truly giant bass hunters, their mindset is completely different as are their approaches to catching true monsters. They may go days without even a bite but when they do, it is worht the wait, That luxury is one that isn't afforded to the majority of anglers out there without a serious time commitment and also why the seasonal act of the spawn is when many big bass are caught. The bass instinct of spawning over rides everything else and makes them more vulnerable and has them leave their normal haunts.
I would love to be able to target larger bass all the time but since my fishing time is somewhat limited right now i am happy catching decent fish and a few big ones in there if possible.
I'm going to claim that the following is at least part of the story ~
Many of the waters I fish are small to mid-sized lake that do have summer seasonal residents living on the lake. The constant wave after wave of recreational water sports during daylight hours probably disturbs the food chain a bit on these very clear lakes. With the bait all wacked out, the bass seek cover somewhere - most suspend mid lake right over the thermocline. All of this usually ends up being a non-issue come Tues, Wed & Thursday night.
A-Jay
roadwarrior reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:54 PM, Catt said:impressive.RW would you not agree, that during some part of that 3 year period some of those DD bass were 7-9 lbs bass?
You got me there! I am SURE you are right, but here is a very specific story that I was personally
involved with. I was at Pickwick last year with the local BPS Fishing Department Manager, another
BPS assistant and a well known local. None of these guys had EVER caught a DD, but this particular
weekend all three got one, weighed and pictured, on the A Rig! Pretty impressive I think.
Still, I am sure some of the other reports are "estimated weights" and we all know what that means.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:51 PM, WRB said:I believe the OP ? was will bass stop feeding because the developed a fear of lures and will starve.
The answer to that is NO!
Tom
Not so much a fear of lures, but like Avery said a conditioned response to avoid a certain type of bait/forage until there isn't enough food that they haven't been conditioned to ignore. I know it is probably not true, just something I was thinking about based on a number of theories.
Jar11591 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:40 PM, A-Jay said:Will A Bass Stop Feeding Altogether ?
Often times it certainly seems like they do, at least around these parts; and especially during daylight hours from about mid July to mid August.
But night time is a completely different story.
A-Jay
Yup, good point.
Catt reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 11:59 PM, roadwarrior said:You got me there! I am SURE you are right, but here is a very specific story that I was personally
involved with. I was at Pickwick last year with the local BPS Fishing Department Manager, another
BPS assistant and a well known local. None of these guys had EVER caught a DD, but this particular
weekend all three got one, weighed and pictured, on the A Rig! Pretty impressive I think.
Still, I am sure some of the other reports are "estimated weights" and we all know what that
means.
Oh impressive for sure!
But consider this, would it not be possible for a 7-9 lb bass to have been caught at the start of the 3 year period & not much attention give to it. But that same 7-9 lbs bass is caught during year 3 but now it's a 10 lb plus & gets plenty of attention.
Point is we do not know if that DD was caught before or not. There is plenty to consider when we say a portion of the population has never struck a lure in its life time.
roadwarrior reply :
Well, I understand your point, but I think you missed mine.
I don't believe in multiple coincidence. The fact that three
guys all catch DDs on one weekend trip together on Pickwick
Reservior has a statistical probability approaching zero. This
combined with other reports of DDs on The Rig suggest a
completely different scenario.
tatertester reply :
Scheeeeeeese!
WRB reply :
Stop feeding from being conditioned to being hooked, the answer is NO.On 4/17/2014 at 12:08 AM, Jar11591 said:Not so much a fear of lures, but like Avery said a conditioned response to avoid a certain type of bait/forage until there isn't enough food that they haven't been conditioned to ignore. I know it is probably not true, just something I was thinking about based on a number of theories.
Stop feeding because the prey source the bass has feed on it's entire adult life disappears, the answer is yes.
The majority of giant bass in lake Casitas stopped feeding when trout plants stopped abruptly. I thought the big bass would switch to the threadfin shad population instead of starving, I was wrong, the population crashed within 2 years. Electro shocking brought up dozens of emancipated 26"-28" bass that should have weight over 15 lbs that were less than 4 lbs and starving in a lake with healthy bass in the 12"-20" size range.
Casitas was a world class trophy bass lake and after 6 years of no trout plants, the bass are recovering and has a good population of 7 to 10 lb bass today.
Very few bass are caught on trout swimbaits today, the new generation of bass don't recognize what a trout swimbait is!
We may think we know bass behavior, there is a lot to learn.
Tom
shimmy reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 10:40 AM, RoLo said:The survival instinct would prevent any healthy animal from fasting until death.
The only animal that stops eating is one that's morbidly ill, to the point of no return.
Roger
Not true, remembering old Harlow's experiment with monkeys where they would rather seek comfort and starve to death then live in an environment with food and no comfort. So yes, animals do starve themselves intentionally, especially when stressed. But, the question is, do fish? Until a study shows so, i don't know the answer. But I presume they will often not eat when stressed.
WRB reply :
Making contradictory statements without knowing the facts creates animosity.On 4/18/2014 at 2:10 AM, shimmy said:Not true, remembering old Harlow's experiment with monkeys where they would rather seek comfort and starve to death then live in an environment with food and no comfort. So yes, animals do starve themselves intentionally, especially when stressed. But, the question is, do fish? Until a study shows so, i don't know the answer. But I presume they will often not eat when stressed.
I have fished lake Casitas since 1958 and caught giant bass over 15 lbs* every year since 1979 until 2009., None since. I also made the argument that the giant bass population would adjust to feeding on what prey was available when the trout plants stopped. Casitas has a good population of red ear sunfish, bluegill, crappie, threadfin shad, crawdads and young of the year catfish and carp...plenty of food choices. The big bass that grew up eating planted trout didn't adjust, they starved. Not one bass over 12 lbs was caught between 2009 to date 2014. Castias averages over 50 bass exceeding 13 lbs for 30 years...zero since the trout plants abruptly stopped. I witnessed the starving bass and hard to except it could happen, not logical, but factual..
I know the new generation of bass are doing well, 18+ lb bass may not occur, but 15+ lbs could, time will tell.
Tom
* 18.6 lbs my top bass at Casitas.
fishinthedacks reply :
Honestly it's possible. Humans do it. It could be mental, it could be conditioned. A lot of people like myself with stomach problems eat very little. I love food but everytime I eat I get very uncomfortable and sick. Happened at a young age. I found certain things will help my appetite but to be honest I survive on about 1/10th of the food any normal person should. But I have become conditioned to know if I eat it's going to upset my stomach so I chew thoroughly and eat very little. To say fish and other animals don't feel anxiety and refuse food would be incorrect. Anxiety is something humans have become conditioned to that most people don't feel it, but it is our most primal instinct. Thats why most fish flee when they see you. I'm not going to argue animals especially fish anxiety lol but it is a possibility. Usually they stop feeding due to illness, however I've care for high end fish my entire life (I have a discus tank with about 2000.00 in discus fish) I've had 300.00 fish who stopped feeding due to bullying during feeding time. They knew when the tank opened up if they went for food a dominant fish would attack them so they would go to the bottom and begin to become bottom feeders. If they were caught the would be attacked and eventually they would stop eating due to stress. So I would seperate them and sometimes it would take weeks to get them eating again sometimes they would never eat and die with no other illness present.
Anyone with aggressive tanks can attest to this.
fishinthedacks reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 11:39 PM, 00 mod said:All fish must eat to survive!
Just sayin.
Jeff
As do all animals, period. Unfortunately all animals can be stressed to the point of not eating and dying. From fish to people. (The reason I know this I used to captive breed reptiles on a large scale as well as fish. Wild caughts were very hard to acclimate early on even with perfect conditions and big chunky snakes and lizards with no health problems as proven by my vet and eventually myself since I got to the point where I could do/diagnose anything a vet could. They would just go months without eating and eventually die. Having necropsies done after death they weren't diagnoses with anything. Parasites, cancers etc. They died from malnourishment. And I tried offering mice,rats,birds,lizards,guinea pigs etc for the very hard to please feeders. Usually worked but sometimes they just said screw it and starved to death.)
Certainly if a bass was caught multiple times in short period of time I think they could be stressed to the point of starving to death. Perfect example is the Bass Pro Shop catch and release ponds. They stopped biting ANYTHING after about an hour and the staff was just snagging the fish with the hooks. They weren't biting and they hadn't even been feed. Sure that's an extreme scenario but they tried tons of dif bait to get them biting and eventually a couple (probably ones who weren't harassed too much started biting on a different bait) but as a whole their were 100s of fish not biting with empty stomachs.
Again this is an extreme but certainly proves this theory to an extent. I would be interested to see that catch and release pond utilized under proper conditions for a month and no "snagging the fish" and see how many fish died under proper water temps, hiding spots, water conditions (pH etc). I'm sure a small fishery could do a controlled experiment with no problem and give us a real answer. HOWEVER! This would never happen. Because animal rights groups would crack down on fishing and regulate it worse than than it is now. So for us anglers I think it's better to forget about this subject lol.
Brian Needham reply :
thank goodness wild bass aren't being held captive!
shimmy reply :
On 4/18/2014 at 9:08 AM, WRB said:Making contradictory statements without knowing the facts creates animosity.
I have fished lake Casitas since 1958 and caught giant bass over 15 lbs* every year since 1979 until 2009., None since. I also made the argument that the giant bass population would adjust to feeding on what prey was available when the trout plants stopped. Casitas has a good population of red ear sunfish, bluegill, crappie, threadfin shad, crawdads and young of the year catfish and carp...plenty of food choices. The big bass that grew up eating planted trout didn't adjust, they starved. Not one bass over 12 lbs was caught between 2009 to date 2014. Castias averages over 50 bass exceeding 13 lbs for 30 years...zero since the trout plants abruptly stopped. I witnessed the starving bass and hard to except it could happen, not logical, but factual..
I know the new generation of bass are doing well, 18+ lb bass may not occur, but 15+ lbs could, time will tell.
Tom
* 18.6 lbs my top bass at Casitas.
I guess i'm confused, are you saying i am making a contradictory statement??? Not sure what you are referring to. Nevertheless, I do find the rest of your post very interesting though.
WRB reply :
No, that was Rolo's quote you quoted. I think we are on the same page now.On 4/18/2014 at 12:26 PM, shimmy said:I guess i'm confused, are you saying i am making a contradictory statement??? Not sure what you are referring to. Nevertheless, I do find the rest of your post very interesting though.
The Casitas bass may have become conditioned to eating trout and ignoring everything else, when the trout suddenly disappeared the bass never learned to hunt for more difficult prey to eat until they were too weak to catch prey. Very strange set of circumstances. The giant giant bass in Castaic lagoon had the same problem without trout plants and most of those bass made the adjustment. The lagoon is smaller and water levels more stable, cooler and has a holdover trout population, the bass population didn't crash as fast as the Casitas giant bass.
Tom
SirSnookalot reply :
Short answer is Yes. Whether it's a bass or another species I have put live bait literally in their mouth, just to see them swim away.
RoLo reply :
On 4/18/2014 at 3:27 PM, SirSnookalot said:Short answer is Yes. Whether it's a bass or another species I have put live bait literally in their mouth, just to see them swim away.
After you've just finished wolfing down a 12-oz New York Strip, you might not be thrilled by the sight of another steak dinner.
Every angler has witnessed fasting bass that refuse to eat, but this has little or nothing to do with starvation.
Provided suitable food is available, no healthy fish is going to die of starvation unless of course it's inflicted with a terminal illness,
be it physical or physiological.
Roger.
geo g reply :
Sometimes the PH in the water gets screwed up, they will stop doing anything! Especially eating! This sometimes happens after a heavy, drenching, rain storm. I hate that! 
Brian Needham reply :
I got a friend that tells me all the time:
"Needham, they got to eat, your job is the find the hungry ones and feed them"
WRB reply :
Roger, I respect what your opinion on this and I had the exact same position until the lake Castias giant bass population starved in otherwise healthy ecosystem. The local guides were complaining, the trophy bass anglers were complaining and discussions with the DFG biologist finally including electro shocking for confirmation. I will try to locate some photos taken of these bass. There isn't a trophy bass population at Castias today, although it may recover in time.On 4/18/2014 at 11:03 PM, RoLo said:After you've just finished wolfing down a 12-oz New York Strip, you might not be thrilled by the sight of another steak dinner.
Every angler has witnessed fasting bass that refuse to eat, but this has little or nothing to do with starvation.
Provided suitable food is available, no healthy fish is going to die of starvation unless of course it's inflicted with a terminal illness,
be it physical or physiological.
Roger.
We are not talking about a few bass, close to 50 bass estimate to be between 15 to 18 lbs before the trout plants stopped.
Tom
Brian Needham reply :
I think WRB is correct,as I have no reason to doubt it. but it is an extreme set of events.
on average, with the food chain intact..... will a bass starve itself, no.
do we agree on that?
Catt reply :
From what I've read by biologist & other big bass anglers I've talked to, Castias problem was not that the bass wouldn't eat other prey, they were conditioned by the trout not to hunt.
WRB reply :
I agree with this. However they did hunt trout all over the lake, not just feed on easy meals in the marina. The bass that lived in the closed area by the dam, 2 miles away from where trout were planted, had to chase down trout that are not freshly planted. The giant bass were conditioned to feed on trout, just couldn't make the adjustment to good shad population.On 4/19/2014 at 3:12 AM, Catt said:From what I've read by biologist & other big bass anglers I've talked to, Castias problem was not that the bass wouldn't eat other prey, they were conditioned by the trout not to hunt.
Keep in mind the trout plants only occur 5 months of the year, so the smaller size trout would be conditioned holdovers. Casitas still has a population of holdover trout between 4 to 10 lbs., too big for bass prey.
Another factor was the quagga mussel fear the Ventura county board had, the annual crayfish stocking to augment the lakes population also stopped. Perfect storm of bad decisions. When you look back it all makes sense, at the time it was baffling.
Tom
Catt reply :
You could call it hunting if you want
RoLo reply :
On 4/19/2014 at 12:05 AM, WRB said:Roger, I respect what your opinion on this and I had the exact same position until the lake Castias giant bass population starved in otherwise healthy ecosystem. The local guides were complaining, the trophy bass anglers were complaining and discussions with the DFG biologist finally including electro shocking for confirmation. I will try to locate some photos taken of these bass. There isn't a trophy bass population at Castias today, although it may recover in time.
We are not talking about a few bass, close to 50 bass estimate to be between 15 to 18 lbs before the trout plants stopped.
Tom
Tom, would you agree that the disappearance of trout concomitantly translated to a meaningful reduction in the forage base?
In any ecosystem, the population of predators at the top of the food chain moves lockstep with the forage base at the bottom of the chain.
As an Example:
During the last several years, ospreys have been enjoying a population explosion in Florida.
As you know, ospreys are strictly piscivorous, and today you can find one or more breeding pairs at every pothole.
On one hand, I'm happy to see them flourishing so well, but on the other hand I'm concerned about their future.
Even before it happens, I already know that when Florida undergoes the next severe drought,
the osprey population will experience a severe die-back, it's the law of 'natural balance'.
Roger
Catt reply :
Castias is one example if why I'm so adamant about scientific research with too much human input...the results aint natural!
WRB reply :
The bass had to compete with cormorants, gulls, herons and osprey for the trout. When the trout plants stopped the cormorants were gone the next year, better hunting grounds elsewhere.
I don't believe the trout made up a big biomass of the food about 150 lbs, 200 to 250 small trout each week for about 20 weeks.
Castias has a massive threadfin shad population, Threadfin are small and not much protein for the effort when the big bass had learned to feed on trout.
Nothing has changed at the lake, the small planted trout are gone, the bass today are doing good, fast and healthy feeding mostly on Threadfin. .
Like Catt is saying trout were easy prey, the big bass became lazy and forgot to learn to hunt anything else.
I thought there was no way these bass wouldn't adjust and start eating shad, they didn't!
Tom
hoosierbass07 reply :
I watched an eppisode of Nova and they did a program on how smart birds are. Wow! Crows and ravens are very smart, even smarter that dogs. They made me think of bass. My new thinking - bass are a little smarter than a Venus flytrap, but not much.
RoLo reply :
On 4/19/2014 at 4:15 AM, WRB said:The bass had to compete with cormorants, gulls, herons and osprey for the trout. When the trout plants stopped the cormorants were gone the next year, better hunting grounds elsewhere.
I don't believe the trout made up a big biomass of the food about 150 lbs, 200 to 250 small trout each week for about 20 weeks.
Castias has a massive threadfin shad population, Threadfin are small and not much protein for the effort when the big bass had learned to feed on trout.
Nothing has changed at the lake, the small planted trout are gone, the bass today are doing good, fast and healthy feeding mostly on Threadfin. .
Like Catt is saying trout were easy prey, the big bass became lazy and forgot to learn to hunt anything else.
I thought there was no way these bass wouldn't adjust and start eating shad, they didn't!
Tom
Most animals are highly adaptable, and those that are less flexible often pay a high price..
Two examples of inflexible animals are the ivory-billed woodpecker which is most likely extinct, and the spotted owl
which is facing extinction. The survival of these two species is linked to primary forests (primeval stands), which have
mostly been replaced by secondary forests. In stark contrast, the pileated woodpecker and barred owl have acclimated well
to secondary forests and their numbers and range continue to burgeon.
If there's 'one' thing we all learned about bass is that they're a highly flexible species with an uncanny ability to acclimatize.
As dictated by conditions, bass quickly adapt to inshore habitats, offshore habitats, lowland reservoirs & canyon impoundments.
They will relate to weeds, wood, rocks and manmade structures, and they're able to cut a living in perennially muddy waters
with a secchi depth measured in inches (no one can explain how they pull it off).
I'm convinced that the reduced biomass of trophy bass in Castaic and Casitas is in direct proportion to the reduction
in the forage base, and has nothing to do with an inability to adjust. Never forget, these same bass already made the adjustment
from their natural shallow-water niche to an offshore habitat in order to dine on pelagic forage. For these same bass to switch back
to their inborn shallow-water environment would as easy as falling off a log, but the real problem lies in the fact
that the punch bowl was taken away (i.e. trout).
Roger
WRB reply :
Roger. It was only the select giant bass population that crashed, 95% of the bass population was not affected because the smaller size bass do not primarily target large baitfish like the planted trout offered. Very selected few bass that make up the top end of the population and this phenomena didn't occur as radical anywhere else where the trout plants stopped.
Giant bass are very rare fish, the population varies in all our lakes and boom and bust periods are common, usually tied to high water periods offering excellent recruitment and low water drought periods creating poor habitat and low recruitment. I understand all the normal factors and have been pursuing these bass successfully for decades.
The trout plants being stopped happened when the Casitas giant bass population was at a peak unfortunately.
These bass should have adapted, they simply didn't.
Thank you for all the background, the local biologist didn't have a logical explanation and I have learned to move on.
Catt reply :
Quite simple there Tom!
The portion of the population that died was old, stubborn, hardheaded, & set in their ways!
Bass are highly adaptable with an ability to acclimate as conditions dictate, those bass were simple to old to adapt.
Here's something to mull over!
Given the ecosystem that is Castaic what if biologist had followed the Texas model & not interfered to the degree the did what kind of results would we now have?
Lake Fork has produced 256 bass between 13-18 lbs & is still kicking out Hawgs!
WRB reply :
California doesn't have a decent fishery management program. The trout were being planted into Casitas since it opened in 1958. Trout are a valued species and hatchery raised by the DFG for recreational anglers. Northern strain Largemouth are initially planted along with catfish, bluegill, crappie, crayfish shortly after the dam was built, typical for California reservoirs.
The FLMB were introduced by a local bass club with permission by the DFG in 1971, one time plant of pure FLMB fingerlings and a few adult size bass from Lower Otay in San Diego. The DFG also planted Threadfin shad and red ear sunfish in 1971. It's illegal to transport live game fish in CA, need a permit from the DFG. The Easley bass 21 lb 3 oz lake record was caught in 1981, same year I caught a 18 lb 10 oz.
The planted trout were always in Casitas until a law suit preventing non native trout to be planted into reservoirs that have native trout or steelhead populations. Prior to the dam being constructed Coyote creek had native steelhead during wet years. The result was no more trout plants into Casitas.
There wasn't a plan to feed trout to bass, the NLMB ignored the planted trout, the FLMB targeted trout.
I don't know the total number of 13+ lb FLMB caught form Casitas, no records are kept, it's over several hundred from this 2,000 acre lake.
Tom
merc1997 reply :
On 4/16/2014 at 7:00 AM, Jar11591 said:What does everyone think? Say a bass lived in a very pressured waterbody, and he gets caught by fishermen routinely. Do you think it could ever get to a point where the bass begins to associate the act of feeding entirely with getting hooked, so he stops feeding altogether until he starves? I know this is true in some mammals, if they begin to associate eating with pain then they eventually will not eat. I know bass are not self-aware and can't feel pain, but I'm talking purely instinctual. And I'm not talking about a bass getting wise to a certain bait, because I know that can happen.
i know that i am a bit late to the party here, but i will tell you what i have observed over the years here on our ozark lakes. unless, the water temps get really cold, bass will continue to eat. fishing pressure might make feeding more sporadic but bass are going to eat. bass will adapt and we have forced them to become more open water feeders. many bass never get near the bank or bottom, with the exception of spawing because we have forced them to from constant fishing pressure. here on table rock, our declining timber is another factor, as well as the brown sludge that is covering everything from pollution going into the lake. just as we humans look for a different restaurant that suites our needs better bass will also.
bass will occasionally go dormant from an unusually cold winter.
bo
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