Super Tuning = Better Braking And Fewer Backlashes? 2025
Josh Smith reply :
Hi Folks,
Since getting back into tuning reels and updating myself on what parts are what, I've been having a blast!
Mostly the old Abu Garcia Ambassadeur models get done, but the newer ('99 and 2014 models) also have been a central focus.
The 1999 is a 5600 Mag. I thought it was a c4 or c5, but getting into it, it's a c3. I'll have to rectify that.
The 5500 was a c3, but is now a c5. Everything that could have bearings does, save for the handle.
I have noticed on both the old and new models that after super tuning, I have to use way less spool tension and way less thumb for backlash control.
Additionally, the lures cast much further, of course.
I almost wonder if the increased spool speed engages the brakes so that thumb isn't needed all that much.
This is all with the stock bearings, too. I've not seen the need for Abec 7 or better, yet, though I might end up with some just for kicks.
There's really no point in this post other than I'm taking a lunch break, and while I revive on coffee, I figured I'd throw this out there for the group to chaw on.
Regards,
Josh
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
Josh,
Your experience is not uncommon at all. The easier casting resulting from Super Tuning results in fewer backlashes because it takes much less force to get the spool tuning initially. This counter to what many expect or even fear when considering tuning but it in fact how it works.
new2BC4bass reply :
I couldn't tell you the reason behind it, but I have the same experience. Every reel I have that has been supertuned needs less braking force than my factory reels of the same model.....or any other model for that matter.
OkobojiEagle reply :
I had the opposite experience, but I was trying to throw weights in the 1/4oz range... not very consistent.
oe
new2BC4bass reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 2:30 AM, OkobojiEagle said:I had the opposite experience, but I was trying to throw weights in the 1/4oz range... not very consistent.
oe
With what reel? Did you also have the bearings upgraded?
OkobojiEagle reply :
4601c3... upgraded spool bearings, worm gear bearings on each end, and idler gear with bearing... yellow rocket fuel.
oe
ColdSVT reply :
After mike at dvt tuned my curado e i realized longer casting, smoother casting and less casting effort. I still het the occasional overrun but thats not the reels fault
I know i plan to send him a couple reels over the winter months for tuning and new drags
Mike is totally worth rhe work he puts into a reel...honestly his prices make it almost like stealing lol. Super service at an exceptional price!
I.rar reply :
I agree. Mikes work and prices cant be beat. Next time my reel goes to him for annual cleaning, a tuning will be done as well. I hope for the same results as everyone else.
new2BC4bass reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 5:32 AM, OkobojiEagle said:4601c3... upgraded spool bearings, worm gear bearings on each end, and idler gear with bearing... yellow rocket fuel.
oe
My tuned reels are all low profile. I have 3 Black Max 1600 reels. I hope to do a bearing upgrade on one while leaving the others stock just to see how much difference better bearings make. I have 2 7' MF Prodigy rods so the comparison should be fairly accurate since I plan to also use the same line on both reels and the same lures. I do have Carbontex drags for all three. Just need to create a place where I can work on them without fear of my wife throwing away needed parts. 
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 2:30 AM, OkobojiEagle said:I had the opposite experience, but I was trying to throw weights in the 1/4oz range... not very consistent.
oe
magnetic or centrifugal based reel, just curious.
powerduster reply :
I bought a custom spool that a third party makes in the UK. It has both high capacity spool and standard capacity, both of which are 30 percent lighter than the stock abu spools. It fits perfectly on my abu 5500 cage. The lighter spool supposedly makes it even easier to cast. I also bought the abec 7 spool bearings from them. I surf fish with two to four ounces of weight so the distance is more noticeable than if one were to bass fish lighter lures. I like it so far.
OkobojiEagle reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 8:41 AM, aavery2 said:magnetic or centrifugal based reel, just curious.
Two brake pin centrifugal...
oe
shanksmare reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 5:32 AM, OkobojiEagle said:4601c3... upgraded spool bearings, worm gear bearings on each end, and idler gear with bearing... yellow rocket fuel.
oe
Just a little tidbit about "superlubes" like rocket fuel for you.
Many mornings I would bump into Ron Arra, who was a 5 or 6 time US Surf Casting Distance champion, along the banks of the Cape Cod Canal fishing for striped bass. His casts, naturally, were significantly longer than mine. I was curious as to what lube he used to aid him to achieve those herculean casts of his. I was shocked at his answer. He said he used SAE 20 3 in 1 Oil. Wow, you can buy a lifetime supply of that for a fraction of the cost of the more exotic oils.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
The synchronized level wind in the Ambassadeur reduces casting distance and minimum weight casted to some degree no matter how much tuning you do. Casting a 1/4 oz at all with one of them is pretty good.
As for lubricants, I can vouch from first hand experience that there is no magic in any of it. A quality product in the proper application is all you need.
Josh Smith reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 10:22 AM, powerduster said:I bought a custom spool that a third party makes in the UK. It has both high capacity spool and standard capacity, both of which are 30 percent lighter than the stock abu spools. It fits perfectly on my abu 5500 cage. The lighter spool supposedly makes it even easier to cast. I also bought the abec 7 spool bearings from them. I surf fish with two to four ounces of weight so the distance is more noticeable than if one were to bass fish lighter lures. I like it so far.
Hello,
I've been searching for something like this for over a month! I thought maybe Blakdog had 'em, but nope.
Pray tell, where did you find 'em???
Lighter spools will indeed make them easier to cast. Full light spools even moreso due to the mechanical advantage.
Currently, on deep spools, I've resorted to backing with the thickest, cheapest mono locally available. Being circular and thick, it has less total mass than thinner backing mono.
Still, this isn't ideal and I really want light spools!
Where'd ya' get 'em??? 
Regards,
Josh
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 12:02 PM, OkobojiEagle said:Two brake pin centrifugal...
oe
Thanks for the reply, sorry I missed your original post of the reel being a C3 4601.
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 7:48 PM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:The synchronized level wind in the Ambassadeur reduces casting distance and minimum weight casted to some degree no matter how much tuning you do. Casting a 1/4 oz at all with one of them is pretty good.
As for lubricants, I can vouch from first hand experience that there is no magic in any of it. A quality product in the proper application is all you need.
I believe that you have mentioned before that you have a background in lubricants. So I am interested in your statement that there is no magic in any of them. What I want to know is how you feel about synthetic lubricants. I was always taught that synthetic lubricants have better lubrication properties based on their molecular structure. The way that it was explained to me was that the molecules that make up synthetic lubricants are all of the same size. Where natural crude lubricants have contaminants such as paraffin and carbon molecules. The difference we be the equivalent of mixing a bunch of different sized ball bearings and placing them on a hard surface and rolling them, this would represent natural lubricants and they would roll very well. The synthetic lubricant would be the equivalent of using ball bearings of all the same size and performing the test on the same hard surface, it is going to be easy to see how uniform the pattern of the bearings of the same size would be and how much smoother they would roll . I hope I have done an adequate job of describing this. To me this is the "magic" of synthetic lubricants, that and their ability to suspend impurities much better than natural lubricants, this gives us the ability to filter them much better. Anyway, just wanted to see what your thoughts are.
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 8:59 PM, aavery2 said:I believe that you have mentioned before that you have a background in lubricants. So I am interested in your statement that there is no magic in any of them. What I want to know is how you feel about synthetic lubricants. I was taught that synthetic lubricants have better lubrication properties based in part on their molecular structure. The way it was explained to me was that the molecules that make up synthetic lubricants are all of the same size. Where natural crude lubricants have contaminants such as paraffin and carbon molecules. The difference would be the equivalent of mixing a bunch of different sized ball bearings and placing them on a hard surface and rolling them, this would represent natural lubricants and they would roll very well. The synthetic lubricant would be the equivalent of using ball bearings of all the same size and performing the test on the same hard surface, it is going to be easy to see how uniform the pattern of the bearings of the same size would be and how much smoother they would roll . I hope I have done an adequate job of describing this. To me this is the "magic" of synthetic lubricants, that and their ability to suspend impurities much better than natural lubricants, this gives us the ability to filter them much better. Anyway, just wanted to see what your thoughts are.
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 7:48 PM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:The synchronized level wind in the Ambassadeur reduces casting distance and minimum weight casted to some degree no matter how much tuning you do. Casting a 1/4 oz at all with one of them is pretty good.
As for lubricants, I can vouch from first hand experience that there is no magic in any of it. A quality product in the proper application is all you need.
I was thinking the same, as well as my experience and belief is that if you are going to cast lighter weights you will have much more success with a magnetic based braking system.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 8:59 PM, aavery2 said:I believe that you have mentioned before that you have a background in lubricants. So I am interested in your statement that there is no magic in any of them. What I want to know is how you feel about synthetic lubricants. I was always taught that synthetic lubricants have better lubrication properties based on their molecular structure. The way that it was explained to me was that the molecules that make up synthetic lubricants are all of the same size. Where natural crude lubricants have contaminants such as paraffin and carbon molecules. The difference we be the equivalent of mixing a bunch of different sized ball bearings and placing them on a hard surface and rolling them, this would represent natural lubricants and they would roll very well. The synthetic lubricant would be the equivalent of using ball bearings of all the same size and performing the test on the same hard surface, it is going to be easy to see how uniform the pattern of the bearings of the same size would be and how much smoother they would roll . I hope I have done an adequate job of describing this. To me this is the "magic" of synthetic lubricants, that and their ability to suspend impurities much better than natural lubricants, this gives us the ability to filter them much better. Anyway, just wanted to see what your thoughts are.
I think your description of the molecular differences between synthetic and crude based oils is accurate for the most part. When I say there is no "magic" I'm referring to the often over blown claims of the packagers relating to benefits. The purpose of a lubricant is to provide a barrier between parts, there by reducing friction and wear. I don't believe there is any molecular bonding per say by simply coating a part. An example of this would be if you remember Slick 50. It was an additive that supposedly claimed to teflon coat the inside of a motor. We were told by lube technicians that the heat required to bond teflon to the other parts would require so much heat that bearings etc would melt first. Fishing reels don't have anywhere near the tight tolerances, heat and chemical contamination etc that would require anything more than a simple light oil for spool bearings and quality water resistant grease for the gears. Good hydraulic oil has anti corrosion properties that will protect sliding parts. Synthetic vs Petrol is about like SS vs Ceramic. Is one better than the other? Sure. Is one going to catch you more fish or make anything last longer? Probably not. Whether you use sewing machine oil or Tsi321, a reel needs to be serviced just as regularly due to exposure to the elements. Neither will counteract dust, sand, water or whatever else we may expose a reel to. In a reel application, the biggest advantage to a synthetic would likely be temperature stability if a reel were to be used in a wide range of conditions, say for both FL bass and winter Steelhead for example. An oil's viscosity index is a curve that shows the viscosity at various temperatures. The straighter the curve, the more stabile it is. For example a synthetic 5w-50 motor oil will thicken less at 0* and thin less at engine operating temps. Sorry if my thoughts seem a little scattered here, it's been a while. lol
aavery2 reply :
No this is perfect, and it is this kind of information through knowledge of the product and actual use and testing in the field that enable us to combat the marketing machine of the media. Far too many people repeat what is written on the package of the products we purchase without really ever giving it a second thought.
J Francho reply :
Quote
Quantum's Hot Sauce grease and Hot Sauce oil is specially formulated to molecularly bond with all metal parts to provide smooth, long-lasting lubrication for all fishing reels.
You mean this isn't true? Is "molecularly" an actual word? LOL.
IAY reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 11:07 PM, J Francho said:You mean this isn't true? Is "molecularly" an actual word? LOL.
Apparently it is xD
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Molecularly
powerduster reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 7:50 PM, Josh Smith said:Hello,
I've been searching for something like this for over a month! I thought maybe Blakdog had 'em, but nope.
Pray tell, where did you find 'em???
Lighter spools will indeed make them easier to cast. Full light spools even moreso due to the mechanical advantage.
Currently, on deep spools, I've resorted to backing with the thickest, cheapest mono locally available. Being circular and thick, it has less total mass than thinner backing mono.
Still, this isn't ideal and I really want light spools!
Where'd ya' get 'em???
Regards,
Josh
The company is called the rocket reel company. The same guys who make the rocket fuel lubricants and liquid grease. They make their own reels for distance competitions and surf fishing.
J Francho reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 11:13 PM, IAY said:Apparently it is xD
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Molecularly
Go figure, it's Oxford's as well, lol. I'm going to start using the word, "electronical" now.
aavery2 reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 11:46 PM, J Francho said:Go figure, it's Oxford's as well, lol. I'm going to start using the word, "electronical" now.
That's very George Bushian of you.........
J Francho reply :
Easy man, no need to insult my credibility, lol.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
No credibility - no loan for you
J Francho reply :
You mean creditibility.
Josh Smith reply :
On 9/26/2014 at 2:30 AM, OkobojiEagle said:I had the opposite experience, but I was trying to throw weights in the 1/4oz range... not very consistent.
oe
Hello,
I went out back to try this out for you.
I used a steel 1/4oz weight.
In choosing a rod, I figured that the graphite rods I have are simply too stiff. I would have to cast them too hard and the velocity would overrun the spool very quickly. In fact, the BPS rod I have says it's a fast action, but it acts like a super fast.
My modified 5500c3, 2014 model, on the 5'6" Cherrywood HD rod (1/4oz to 1oz capacity) seemed like the logical choice.
Playing with things, I found that I could get 25 yards to 30 yards consistently. This involved a lot of thumbing though, more than I've ever had to do, I think, except for when I used to practice with Grandpa's direct drive Bronson.
Now, I've done the following to the 5500c3:
• It's all bearings. It would be a 5500c5 now. Bearings added to both ends of the worm gear, cog bearing, spool bearings. All are stock Abec 5 (I think that's what it comes with) except for the cog wheel bearing which is an Abec 7.
• The cog wheel has been lightened so there's a lot less mass to start spinning. Too, I've never known one of these to spin freely. I do something to it to make it spin freely.
• The worm gear and levelwind are polished. It's all very close to not being a drag issue. I'm not sure it can get much closer, honestly.
Keep in mind that I never throw less than 3/8 oz when fishing, and prefer to throw 1/2 oz to 5/8 oz. The 1/4 oz was a new thing for me and while interesting, my setup is not for that.
I actually think you could set up for 1/4 oz to 1/2 oz casting loads, but it would take a bit of doing. Get that reel as tuned and polished as it can be, and switch to to a medium or medium-light rod with a medium-fast tip.
Regards,
Josh
OkobojiEagle reply :
On 9/27/2014 at 1:41 AM, Josh Smith said:
I actually think you could set up for 1/4 oz to 1/2 oz casting loads, but it would take a bit of doing. Get that reel as tuned and polished as it can be, and switch to to a medium or medium-light rod with a medium-fast tip.
Regards,
Josh
Easier to buy a Chronarch 51e...
oe
Josh Smith reply :
On 9/27/2014 at 7:18 AM, OkobojiEagle said:Easier to buy a Chronarch 51e...
oe
Where's the challenge in that?
Josh
ColdSVT reply :
On 9/27/2014 at 7:18 AM, OkobojiEagle said:Easier to buy a Chronarch 51e...
oe
And then have mike tune it! Lol
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