Is bed fishing ethical? 2024

David Whitaker reply :

With the spawn coming upon most of the country and with it full swing and almost over in Flroida, this is a HUGE topic on a lot of angler's minds. It's always been a huge debate in bass fishing in ethical terms: bed fishing. Many are against it, thinking it hurts future bass population, but a recent study conducted by Florida Wildlife Commision (FWC) answered this dilemma. This past February at the Bassmaster Southern Open's captain meeting, FWC showed the results from an AMZING study. Every variable was perfectly covered. In summation, they studied spawning bass in multiple regulated ponds. They knew the exact amount, size, and length of every bass in them as well as being tagged. During the spawn they would troll and even snorkel/dive to find beds and investigate the spawning behavior of all the bass. In half of the ponds, they measured the amount of bass that spawned and the amount of offspring after one year. They did the same with the other half of the ponds but all of the beds were fished. They caught every bass that would bite. From what I remember, I believe they caught 1/4 of all the spawning females as well as a certain larger amount of males. All caught fish were immediately returned after data was taken. In the end, the ponds that were fished put out MORE offspring. They were even able to tell exactly what parents made each bass and what bed they came from due to the magic of genetics. This is only one controlled study and I'm sure there will be more to come. Also, it can be taken into consideration that these were Florida Strain Largemouth and the bass were released back to the same area as the bed they came off of as soon as statistics were taken of the fish. So there is reason to speculate other strains and species may have a different turnout as well as keeping a fish in the live well may cause a different result. What can be taken from his study however is that fishing for spawning fish may not be as bad for the species prolification as we may seem to believe. Something to take into consideration next time you're staring at a double-digit!

Choporoz reply :

Thanks....good read. I'd be interested in a link to the study. I do have a very slight tic that (coincidentally?) developed when you suggest that 'every variable was perfectly covered', however...

Ridi620 reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 12:27 AM, David Whitaker said:

With the spawn coming upon most of the country and with it full swing and almost over in Flroida, this is a HUGE topic on a lot of angler's minds. It's always been a huge debate in bass fishing in ethical terms: bed fishing. Many are against it, thinking it hurts future bass population, but a recent study conducted by Florida Wildlife Commision (FWC) answered this dilemma. This past February at the Bassmaster Southern Open's captain meeting, FWC showed the results from an AMZING study. Every variable was perfectly covered. In summation, they studied spawning bass in multiple regulated ponds. They knew the exact amount, size, and length of every bass in them as well as being tagged. During the spawn they would troll and even snorkel/dive to find beds and investigate the spawning behavior of all the bass. In half of the ponds, they measured the amount of bass that spawned and the amount of offspring after one year. They did the same with the other half of the ponds but all of the beds were fished. They caught every bass that would bite. From what I remember, I believe they caught 1/4 of all the spawning females as well as a certain larger amount of males. All caught fish were immediately returned after data was taken. In the end, the ponds that were fished put out MORE offspring. They were even able to tell exactly what parents made each bass and what bed they came from due to the magic of genetics. This is only one controlled study and I'm sure there will be more to come. Also, it can be taken into consideration that these were Florida Strain Largemouth and the bass were released back to the same area as the bed they came off of as soon as statistics were taken of the fish. So there is reason to speculate other strains and species may have a different turnout as well as keeping a fish in the live well may cause a different result. What can be taken from his study however is that fishing for spawning fish may not be as bad for the species prolification as we may seem to believe. Something to take into consideration next time you're staring at a double-digit!

@bassinhole great read! You ever see a big bass on a bed?! HAHAHAH

WRB reply :

The issue isn't survival rates of bass being caught and released immediately after being caught and handled carefully by skilled biologist. The bed fishing debate arises when trophy size female bass are caught and kept becoming someone's PB, handled poorly or killed.

It's a high percentage the trophy bass that didn't survive may not be caught any other seasonal period. We all know bass are renewable resource and the trophy size already renewed it's genes from prior spawns. So is it ethical to intentionally target a bedding bass? Only you can make that determination.

Tom

David Whitaker reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 1:23 AM, WRB said:

The issue isn't survival rates of bass being caught and released immediately after being caught and handled carefully by skilled biologist. The bed fishing debate arises when trophy size female bass are caught and kept becoming someone's PB, handled poorly or killed.

It's a high percentage the trophy bass that didn't survive may not be caught any other seasonal period. We all know bass are renewable resource and the trophy size already renewed it's genes from prior spawns. So is it ethical to catch a bedding bass? Only you can make that determination.

Tom

Exactly. However I have heard many state that in that small amount of time that the bass is off the bed, even if it is handled and released healthy, that invaders can take advantage of the opportunity, lessening the amount of genes in the gene pool for large size. This study focused on this. The only way to prevent mishandling would be education and word of mouth. For now, at least this study backs up the ethical factors that play into fishing for spawning bass with proper handling. Furthermore, the study also focuses on the survival rates of the offspring, not necessarily the survival rate of the spawning fish themselves although I'm sure that data was taken into consideration.

On 3/12/2016 at 12:35 AM, Choporoz said:

Thanks....good read. I'd be interested in a link to the study. I do have a very slight tic that (coincidentally?) developed when you suggest that 'every variable was perfectly covered', however...

http://myfwc.com/research/freshwater/sport-fishes/largemouth-bass/bed-fishing-research/

This link explains the study in a little better detail and with some data. I wish it included all of the information and data presented to us but it is a great summarization of the study and the conclusions brought from it.

Alonerankin2 reply :

I doubt that only a biologist is capable of a proper release.. there are and have been some great fisherman that have done so.

I see no harm in it..

Smokinal reply :

I'll start by admitting that I don't know much about the topic, therefore I will not judge. But, one concern I have thought about is the female losing eggs during the fight, on the way to the boat. I have had, and I'm sure you have too, fish just spewing eggs all over my boat as I get the hook out. Do you think that she didn't lose thousands of eggs while struggling on the end of the line on her way in? These eggs are not in a nest and will not be fertilized. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Scott F reply :

The study obviously did not look at tournaments where the fish are pulled off the beds, taken to the weigh in and released miles from where they were caught. What do think the success rate would be if tournament fishing took place at the study site?

Raul reply :

It´s fortunate that most of the offspring doesn´t survive, otherwise you would be catching dinks, dinks & more dinks all day all year long.

David Whitaker reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 3:56 AM, Scott F said:

The study obviously did not look at tournaments where the fish are pulled off the beds, taken to the weigh in and released miles from where they were caught. What do think the success rate would be if tournament fishing took place at the study site?

The success rate would more than likely be a lot less, but it all depends on if the male was not caught. Most tournament angler's only try for the female. If the male is caught many times they put him in the live well until the female is caught them return the male because usually they won't be much help to their bag weight. In this case the success rate would not be significantly affected because the male will continue to guard after release in most cases. If the bed is left empty however, the success rate of those offspring will be near zero.

On 3/12/2016 at 3:32 AM, Smokinal said:

I'll start by admitting that I don't know much about the topic, therefore I will not judge. But, one concern I have thought about is the female losing eggs during the fight, on the way to the boat. I have had, and I'm sure you have too, fish just spewing eggs all over my boat as I get the hook out. Do you think that she didn't lose thousands of eggs while struggling on the end of the line on her way in? These eggs are not in a nest and will not be fertilized. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

You're most definitely right. It would all depend on if she laid any eggs prior to the catch, because keep in mind they can lay up to 10,000 eggs in one bed and can spawn up to three times each spawn, especially here in Florida where they can spawn for up to six months. The success of that particular bed may be much lower, but there is a good possibility of that female producing more offspring that spawn. I have had the same thing happen and it may effect success rates to an extent but often times it won't effect total offspring that spawn season. And keep in mind this is all from a Florida standpoint, this could be slightly or completely different at different parts of the country.

Catt reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 3:56 AM, Scott F said:

The study obviously did not look at tournaments where the fish are pulled off the beds, taken to the weigh in and released miles from where they were caught. What do think the success rate would be if tournament fishing took place at the study site?

Conventional knowledge indicates that a male bass builds the nest, fans it out, and guards it (zealously). Generally, a good male that is aggressive and active will attract more than one female to his best and spawn with each of them. Along with that, an active female will spawn a number of times and, in most cases, in a number of different males' nest. I think that is sort of a hedge (on the part of the female) against an infertile male spoiling the hatch of a good fertile female. That ensures a higher success rate for that spawn.

It is this sporadic purging of eggs and the ability to spawn with different males n several nest that keeps the annual spring bedding season from being several impacted by large tournaments. Texas Parks & Wildlife biologist Clarence Bowling says studies have shown that a female (when handled properly) will simply locate a bed and an available male in the area where she is released and complete spawning.

GET A LOCK ON THE SPAWN by Tim Tucker

As far as killing the female for a mount it would not matter if it was during spawn or summer you have removed those genes from the gene pool. Down here Taxidermist will not accept bass for skin mounts!

QUAKEnSHAKE reply :

Some people feel its unethical to sport fish period.

Should only fish to feed ones self.

No need to fish at all, be vegan.

Cant please every person so please yourself. Ill buy my license and fish legally and fish where /when for whatever in a legal means.

blckshirt98 reply :

I don't think it's unethical, but I do think it's kind of cheese. It's like hunting for birds by camping out next to bird houses after they've laid eggs. I'd be okay with not allowing fishing for a month during spawning if it means the fishing the other 11 months are greatly improved.

gobig reply :

You know what would have a bigger impact? Stop sending all the water down stream for political reasons and stop spraying all the weeds so some yuppie on a bike path doesn't have to see them.

J._Bricker reply :

I don't think bed fishing is unethical, and I appreciated David Whitaker's information post. It's my understanding bass spawn dont spawn all at once, but at different times when the correct conditions their internal clocks say are present. This may take place of the coarse of several months depending upon the location. I think a bigger impact on the survival of the spawn is the lack of cover from which the fry can hide from preditation. In an area (Frank's Tract) that hosts weekly tournaments, I noticed after last year's spawn a lot of fry clouds of various size fish. This was due to the state's successful efforts kill aquatic vegetation and deny "predatory" bass a place to hide.

Anyone who has spent an hour or more trying to entice a bedding fish to bite knows it isn't as easy as some make it seem. Of course, 10 yards down the bank another bass may bite on the first attempt....

Dye99 reply :

I feel that bed fishing is unethical. I also decided that its not very sporting to use a kayak where you can float right up on them.

Then I went ahead and decided that while swim fishing only for non bedding fish, that hooks are also don't give the fish a fair chance.

I haven't caught anything in a while...

N Florida Mike reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 7:45 AM, gobig said:

You know what would have a bigger impact? Stop sending all the water down stream for political reasons and stop spraying all the weeds so some yuppie on a bike path doesn't have to see them.

Thank you!!

Florida Cracker2 reply :

I don't worry too much about bed fishing because I catch and release. The bass I release are a little smarter than it was before I released it. I've fished virgin ponds and seen first hand how they learn what not to bite. But I also castnet mullet during row season and love eating row so I cain't complain about being unethical. Just use some common sense. Leave some to reproduce.

flyfisher reply :

How large is this pond? I have a big problem with a "scientific" study that uses words like all, exact and every.

Good read but i am not buying it.....

buzzed bait reply :

anyone know why they held them for 1 hour?

"Nests were fished and caught bass were safely stored away for 60 minutes before being returned."

J._Bricker reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 11:07 AM, buzzed bait said:

anyone know why they held them for 1 hour?

"Nests were fished and caught bass were safely stored away for 60 minutes before being returned."

My guess would be the 1 hour was a sample size to determine if any preditation occurred to the nest/bed with the parent bass removed...

YourBassIsGrass reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 9:29 AM, flyfisher said:

How large is this pond? I have a big problem with a "scientific" study that uses words like all, exact and every.

Good read but i am not buying it.....

ww2farmer reply :

I am neither for, nor opposed to bed fishing. I will bed fish intentionally for smallmouth for a few days, then it gets boring because it's stupid easy at times. As for largemouth...........I rarely intentionally bed fish for them, but I have no doubt that I catch a lot off beds. Why don't I bed fish for largemouth on purpose? Because they are jerks...................you can practically park the boat on top of a smallmouth and catch them on a bare hook, come back in three hours and catch them again..............with largemouth you have to paint your face camo, sneak up on them, mark the bed with a stick, comeback in two hours, get the male agitated, say three Hail Mary's, have your hat tilted to a 45 degree angle to the axis of the sun, and try 653 different baits before one even looks at it.................I ain't got time for that.

Jaderose reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 12:27 AM, David Whitaker said:

Every variable was perfectly covered. They knew the exact amount, size, and length of every bass in them as well as being tagged. They were even able to tell exactly what parents made each bass and what bed they came from due to the magic of genetics. This is only one controlled study and I'm sure there will be more to come.

I don't intentionally target beds but that is my personal choice. I've quoted the sentences I've got a problem with in the OP. Do I think that targeting beds will decimate the bass population in a given body of water? Nope. Do I have a personal problem with doing so? Yes. this is a sport. Sports are supposed to be challenging. My .02 only. Does not apply to anyone else. I respect any angler's right to do as he pleases as long as it is legal.

N Florida Mike reply :

Some of you sound like you think there's no sport in fishing beds.Sometimes they won't bite no matter what.Sometimes they will.Kind of like when you're not bed fishing.There's nothing wrong with catching and releasing the fish.The problem I have with it now is catching and keeping a bedding fish.And back in the day, most everyone kept them to eat, and catch and release was thought to be strange and even wasteful of time.Its all about perception and popular opinion. If our country keeps going the way it's going,we may be eating them again to stay alive!

Florida Cracker2 reply :

If our country keeps going the way it's going, we may be eating them again to stay alive!

I know your feelings. My wife feeds the bluegill and tilapia off our dock with bread and I don't mess with them just in case we need them to eat some day.

David Whitaker reply :

Here's my personal opinion on fishing beds. I don't find it unethical as long as you release it and put a minimal amount of stress on the fish so that they are more likely to reproduce. In a tournament situation I'm more likely to opt out of specifically targeting beds. If it's a rough day and I'm staring at a kicker, then I might opt for trying for her, or maybe a male that is easy to catch that just fanned a bed. As for sport, I see it as very methodical. They can be very easy to catch, I'll admit. But the big females don't get big by being stupid. I've spent three days on one giant sitting on bed that was in the double digit range and still didn't catch her. Over three days spending hours on her each day trying to pattern her I only got her to puff some water at it once and grab the tail at one point just to spit it out. It can be very challenging and methodical and I see it as an art. You can get lucky and stick a big one every once in a while, but I believe the average Joe cannot go out to target beds and pattern each fishes personality to stick em. Many things go into patterning a bass to bite. Look up articles by one of the best bed fishing freaks in the game, Shaw Grigsby, and see just how much it takes to break down a bed fish. It'll surprise you.

Gundog reply :

For as long as I can remember Pennsylvania had a closed bass season from the opening of trout season (usually in April) to roughly the 2nd saturday in June. A few years ago they changed the laws and you could catch and immediately release bass anywhere in the state. As far as I know, and I've read biologist reports from the Fish & Boat commish, there has been no adverse effects on the bass population in the state. Southern states have had the same "no closed season" bass regulations and they haven't noticed bass populations dwindling. I think catching and releasing bedding bass has little effect on the population. Pollution has more of a hazardous effect on fish populations than anything.

N Florida Mike reply :

In my lifetime (55 years) Florida hasnt had any closed season on bass.And its probably the best state to catch a lunker bass.That may be too simplistic of a theory but there are so many places they can hide that there are plenty out there.And I don't think as many people bass fish as they used to.In the 80s you'd see bass boats being towed everywhere.Now Its somewhat uncommon to see one.At least around here.

warrior1 reply :

I've heard of lakes actually rotating closure of the coves to give the Bass opportunities to spawn. With some of our lakes in CA rising up 4 to 5 feet a week right now, those beds must be scattered all over the place, so I'm sure there are plenty that are deep enough to still get warm, but just out of the view of most anglers.

I think if it was really hurting the replenishment of Bass, we would have heard about it by now.

frogflogger reply :

I don't care if you bed fish - I don't bed fish - it's just my personal ethos - I have many friends that bed fish and we are still friends.

BassThumb reply :

I don't find it unethical as long as the fish are handled carefully and CPR is practiced.

.ghoti. reply :

The only real question is simple. Is it legal? If so, it's a personal choice for each to make.

I fish to relax, unwind, de-stress, "get away from it all", whatever you want to call it.

I find that fishing for bedding fish does none of that for me. Sitting on one fish for for three hours, throwing everything in the box at it, does not relax me in any way. So I don't do it.

It's my personal choice.

livemusic reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 8:42 PM, ww2farmer said:

I am neither for, nor opposed to bed fishing. I will bed fish intentionally for smallmouth for a few days, then it gets boring because it's stupid easy at times. As for largemouth...........I rarely intentionally bed fish for them, but I have no doubt that I catch a lot off beds. Why don't I bed fish for largemouth on purpose? Because they are jerks...................you can practically park the boat on top of a smallmouth and catch them on a bare hook, come back in three hours and catch them again..............with largemouth you have to paint your face camo, sneak up on them, mark the bed with a stick, comeback in two hours, get the male agitated, say three Hail Mary's, have your hat tilted to a 45 degree angle to the axis of the sun, and try 653 different baits before one even looks at it.................I ain't got time for that.

LOL!

Fishinggeek reply :

My vote is to leave a bedding fish alone. They get enough pressure from natural predators. In some states it is illegal to target a bedding fish.

buzzed bait reply :

On 3/15/2016 at 10:51 PM, .ghoti. said:

The only real question is simple. Is it legal? If so, it's a personal choice for each to make.

I fish to relax, unwind, de-stress, "get away from it all", whatever you want to call it.

I find that fishing for bedding fish does none of that for me. Sitting on one fish for for three hours, throwing everything in the box at it, does not relax me in any way. So I don't do it.

It's my personal choice.

right on.... i don't know what's more frustrating to me. searching all day trying to find fish or staring one in the face that won't bite!!

Neil McCauley reply :

It's hard to find evidence for everything, particularly evidence of an intervention making a difference. Comparatively pretty easy to show it makes "no difference" because of how statistical analyses are done and how many practical limitations research has. In my line of work for example lots of drug companies like to site research demonstrating their medication as "non-inferior" to the current alternatives. But typically when they say that I don't care, does it also make sense? If not then I really don't care. With bed fishing the data does not make sense and the studies showing it are not that large. I am not surprised they "fail to show" that bed fishing harms fish populations. I still don't do it, at least not intentionally. Pulling a spawning fish temporarily off its bed and stressing it when it is not eating and is focusing its energy 100% on reproduction is logically going to impair its success at that activity.

Catt reply :

On 3/12/2016 at 7:45 AM, gobig said:

You know what would have a bigger impact? Stop sending all the water down stream for political reasons and stop spraying all the weeds so some yuppie on a bike path doesn't have to see them.

Name one state in the Unions that has a fisheries department that rivals Texas?

Every lake in the state of Texas is man made & depends solely on stocking programs for survival.

Texas Parks & Wildlife has 50 years of research backing them!

Think I'll take their word.

On 3/17/2016 at 2:25 AM, Neil McCauley said:

It's hard to find evidence for everything, particularly evidence of an intervention making a difference. Comparatively pretty easy to show it makes "no difference" because of how statistical analyses are done and how many practical limitations research has. In my line of work for example lots of drug companies like to site research demonstrating their medication as "non-inferior" to the current alternatives. But typically when they say that I don't care, does it also make sense? If not then I really don't care. With bed fishing the data does not make sense and the studies showing it are not that large. I am not surprised they "fail to show" that bed fishing harms fish populations. I still don't do it, at least not intentionally. Pulling a spawning fish temporarily off its bed and stressing it when it is not eating and is focusing its energy 100% on reproduction is logically going to impair its success at that activity.

Don't know what happened with that I was answering Neil

fissure_man reply :

On 3/17/2016 at 5:11 AM, Catt said:

Every lake in the state of Texas is man made & depends solely on stocking programs for survival.

Not exactly the hallmark of a healthy fishery... perhaps too much bed fishing? lol

Catt reply :

On 3/17/2016 at 12:49 PM, fissure_man said:

Not exactly the hallmark of a healthy fishery... perhaps too much bed fishing? lol

The native Guadalupe bass & northern strain bass that lives in streams & rivers, was the only breeding stock.

In 1971 TPWD brought the first Florida strain to the Tyler Fish Hatchery, state wide stocking started the following year. Over the next several years bass from California, Cuba, & Florida were brought to Texas to improve the genetics.

Texas went from a nearly non-exist bass population too arguably #1!

NorcalBassin reply :

I don't target beds when I'm fishing in the spring, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm not still catching fish on beds. There is a video of Ike and Jared Lintner catching some bed fish on Clear Lake in July on a 100* day that really opened my eyes... almost impossible to avoid beds unless you avoid the bank altogether for a few months,

fissure_man reply :

On 3/17/2016 at 8:01 PM, Catt said:

The native Guadalupe bass & northern strain bass that lives in streams & rivers, was the only breeding stock.

In 1971 TPWD brought the first Florida strain to the Tyler Fish Hatchery, state wide stocking started the following year. Over the next several years bass from California, Cuba, & Florida were brought to Texas to improve the genetics.

Texas went from a nearly non-exist bass population too arguably #1!

Establishing a population is one thing; maintaining it is another. Is it possible that ongoing LMB stocking programs in Texas could be hiding potential impacts of bed fishing on natural reproductive success?

Catt reply :

On 3/17/2016 at 10:57 PM, fissure_man said:

Establishing a population is one thing; maintaining it is another. Is it possible that ongoing LMB stocking programs in Texas could be hiding potential impacts of bed fishing on natural reproductive success?

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

fissure_man reply :

On 3/17/2016 at 11:25 PM, Catt said:

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year. Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well?

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same. IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect. Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence. Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)? That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor. How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc. With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about.

IndianaFinesse reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 10:01 AM, fissure_man said:

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year. Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well?

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same. IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect. Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence. Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)? That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor. How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc. With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about.

On 3/17/2016 at 11:25 PM, Catt said:

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

Calm down a little bit, everyone is entitled to there opinion so there is no need to argue about it. It is becoming very apparent that you aren't going to change each other's mind anyway. You don't want to get David's thread shut down.

Catt reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 10:01 AM, fissure_man said:

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year. Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well?

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same. IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect. Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence. Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)? That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor. How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc. With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about.

Toledo Bend's fingerlings come from the Toledo Bend Lunker Program as well which is 10# plus bass.

And yes TPWD is tracking natural reproduction vs stocking by fin clipping & genetics. Not only can they tell which female the examined bass came from but which male. They have records of a single male producing seven 13# plus females in three different bodies of water.

You really need to spend as much time studying the research data on the subject as I have & you won't be so negative!

everythingthatswims reply :

Lake Anna is a prime example of how bed fishing and moving bass around is okay. There are tons of tournaments in the spring, not to mention recreational anglers who bring fish to the ramp in a livewell for photos. Very large population of healthy bass with a wide distribution of size.

Tournaments can be won by staying on the trolling motor and fishing whatever creek the marina is in.

Catt reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 10:16 AM, Centralinfinnesse said:

Calm down a little bit, everyone is entitled to there opinion so there is no need to argue about it. It is becoming very apparent that you aren't going to change each other's mind anyway. You don't want to get David's thread shut down.

It shouldn't get locked, Glen & most moderators know how many years I've spent working with biologist here in Louisiana & in Texas.

fissure_man reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 11:40 AM, Catt said:

Toledo Bend's fingerlings come from the Toledo Bend Lunker Program as well which is 10# plus bass.

And yes TPWD is tracking natural reproduction vs stocking by fin clipping & genetics. Not only can they tell which female the examined bass came from but which male. They have records of a single male producing seven 13# plus females in three different bodies of water.

You really need to spend as much time studying the research data on the subject as I have & you won't be so negative!

I truly don't mean to come across as negative toward Texas's fisheries management practices. Clearly what they're doing is working for them. If you look through my posts you won't find criticism of TPWD's work (I'd say my last post even implies they're too good; preventing us from seeing any impact of bed fishing )

The only points I'm making are:

Observations on the population-level impact of bed fishing are likely to be skewed if stocking programs are underway at the same time (ie: would David Whitaker's study be valid if the scientists had dumped a few thousand baby Share-a-Lunkers in the bed-fished pond?)
Even valid observations showing no observable impact of bed fishing are not necessarily broadly applicable to different fisheries, which might have drastically different environmental factors, and probably inferior management

Catt reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 12:45 PM, fissure_man said:

Even valid observations showing no observable impact of bed fishing are not necessarily broadly applicable to different fisheries, which might have drastically different environmental factors, and probably inferior management

The point I'm making is TPWD did not start with Fork or Toledo Bend

What TPWD started with was a research laboratory that is 269,581 square miles of drastically different environments!

Texas has desert lakes, coastal lakes, prairie lakes, hill country lakes in huge forest, lakes in plains, lakes at elevations of 3,000+ ft msl & everything in between.

fishinfiend reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 10:47 PM, Catt said:

Texas has desert lakes, coastal lakes, prairie lakes, hill country lakes in huge forest, lakes in plains, lakes at elevations of 3,000+ ft msl & everything in between.

I want to move to Texas so bad :/

Josh Smith reply :

I target pre- and post-spawn fish. I would target bedded males if I needed food.

Though I like to sight fish, I don't get any thrill from watching a fish clean house of my lure. I mean, it's literally taking out the trash!

Not an ethics problem for me. Just an enjoyment issue.

Josh

fissure_man reply :

On 3/18/2016 at 10:47 PM, Catt said:

The point I'm making is TPWD did not start with Fork or Toledo Bend

What TPWD started with was a research laboratory that is 269,581 square miles of drastically different environments!

Texas has desert lakes, coastal lakes, prairie lakes, hill country lakes in huge forest, lakes in plains, lakes at elevations of 3,000+ ft msl & everything in between.

I'm from southern Ontario, Canada. Fishing for bass in my area is illegal for half the year because governing agencies aren't sure that allowing year-round bass fishing would be harmless to populations. I don't think there's strong science behind the idea that it would have significant impact, but the problem is that there isn't strong (applicable) science proving that it won't. And it seems that the folks in charge aren't keen to take the chance.

If you can provide TPWD (or any) studies that conclusively show, in a controlled, applicable, and scientifically sound way, that extending our fishing season to include the spawn would have no impact, I'd be EXTREMELY grateful. I'd love to target bass year-round, and I have no issue with bed fishing where it is demonstrably sustainable. A year-round bass fishery could improve license sales, and would almost certainly have economic spin-off benefits. It would be hard to find a downside, and with reliable and applicable studies/data in hand, a strong case could be made.

The problem with the current studies I've seen is that there are so many caveats that they are quickly dismissed as inconclusive or irrelevant. But again, I'd love to find some studies that aren't. The few local, active researchers in this field will disappointed to learn that TPWD already has the answers they're burning through their funding to find, but that's easily worth it if it means more fishing opportunities.

.ghoti. reply :

Looking at all the reports and statistics quoted in this discussion reminds of something my all time favorite author said.

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."-Mark Twain

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