What they fail to tell you about cranking 2024

Most anglers don't understand depth control. It is not a factor of being lazy. When you learn about cranking the key is learning the dive angle and at what point the crank bait will reach it's max depth. Many don't understand that a crankbait reaches it's max depth about a good pitch with a jig away from the boat. At that point the bait makes it's upward climb. Depending on the lip angle and how steep the lure digs depends on at what point the bait hits it's max depth. If the bait slowly dives it is going to take awhile to reach its depth if it ever does at all. The shorter you make your cast the less time you give the lure to meet its max depth there for you lessen the lures ability to dive.

Off shore bass are easier to catch because most people don't fish for them. When fishing with crankbaits it is just a matter of angles. A cast this long will give my bait this much running room to reach a target. You now position the boat so that your target is not at the point that my lure makes it's upward climb. When you know what depth your bait runs and how long of a cast you need to make to reach a certain depth the rest is just boat positioning. The hard work is watching your depth finder to find the structure. Many people have this vision of a guy out in the middle of the lake catching bass. More often then not they are fishing the same stuff the bank beaters are just deeper. One angler hits the first 5ft of a point the other crankbait angler fishes the whole point. Then they narrow down where the bass is holding.

Anglers use lures that dig the bottom because they don't know what depth their lure actually runs. To compensate they run the lure on the bottom to maintain contact with the bottom contour. Lures that bounce the bottom speed up and slow down and cause a strike. Now what is going to happen when your point is filled with weeds. Understanding the diving curve and running depth is more important and more accurate. Many times bass will suspend on structure in the thermocline. If your still playing the bottom bouncing game all the way to the boat your lure might only be in the active fish zone for about 10 feet of your cast. If you understand your lure and at what depth the lure hits a certain depth your lure is in the same zone most of your cast. Some anglers look for gentle sloping points to maintain contact the whole cast. The more productive points will be the ones that slope within the thermocline. Bottom bouncing then becomes the more productive method because the contour follows the thermocline. If the point or structure because of angle only has a set portion sitting in the thermocline layer then knowing the dive curve gives you a more accurate presentation to catch these bass. Some potions the bass will suspended up in the thermocline where the thermocline meets the point the bass might be tight to the point. Bass will move as the thermocline moves which changes throughout the day.

I use glass rods for beating the bank because when I play a fish to tire it out most of the fight is near the boat and the rod aids in preventing the hooks from coming free. Glass has less vibration transfer then graphite because it is like using a wet noodle. Many anglers reel the bait in with their index finger under the line to compensate for the lack of feel. For long distance graphite gives you the best feel and long distance vibration transfer in the rod. Many use glass for deep cranking because the rod loads better and you can cast farther. Composite is the best of both worlds.

Fluorocarbon because it is denser will telegraph vibrations at a distance better. Here is some science http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/the-truth-about-fluorocarbon.html

When you use a crankbait that dives deeper then the depth needed to overpower the depth to remain in contact with the bottom line size is less relevant to achieve depth because you are using a deeper lure than the depth needed. Many times anglers use line diameter to gain extra depth also consider that different companies have different line diameters for the same pound test. There can be a vast difference in the depth your lure runs between line company (a) and line company ( because different diameters. Thinner lines produce less drag on your lure and help gain depth but if one rod has 10 lb line that has the diameter of line company ('s 12 pound line it is going to effect your depth. So it pays to read the diameter and choose the thinner line. In the larger pound lines the diameters between company (a) and ( can become more dramatic.

Most guys who crank deep have their drag set tight because when you run a crankbait the drag will slip and you loose depth. It also aids in driving hooks at a distance because of line stretch.

When bass make a quick lunge many times anglers have trouble with bass becoming unbuttoned. This was the reasoning for David Fritts building the glass rod he had. The rod absorbs the pressure of a fighting lunge while maintaining the pressure that keeps hooks stuck. This also is why Rick Clunn's signature rod is composite rods. The key is that the rod will apply enough pressure on the fish not to tear the hooks or wear larger holes in the fish. With graphite you rip more hooks because of the pressure you unknowingly put on the fish close to the boat. Style hooks, hook gap, size of the wire all effect how the hook wears on a fighting fish.

You've got some really good points in there.

To be fair to Elias (and I know this is a jumping off point for you, not a challenge to Elias), when on the spot in an interview, lots of those contingencies get forgotten.

Good post.

Chris or Paul? Or how about add them both together 

The wider the wobble the more time it takes for the bait to reach it's max depth. Many anglers use the wobble to telegraph when a fish strikes. With a wide wobble the line is moving from side to side at a set distance which is the thump you feel at the rod end. You catch more fish when you can feel your vibration pattern at a distance then at close range. Lures that tilt from side to side have the same telegraph vibration as the wide wiggle. The problem with equipment is that it makes it hard to tell the difference between the lure vibration and the structure. They both feel the same causing you to miss fish. Then you have some who say fish hook themselves which means they really didn't have good contact between the lure vibration and what you feel in your hands. I use deep tone rattles to give off the sound of a larger prey. The deeper you go the less light penetrates the water so it would be like fishing stained to murky water even though the upper layer might be clear. The lower frequency travels farther under water than high pitch frequency rattle. Paul uses the vibration pattern I use rattle frequency. I choose a medium wiggle because it offers less resistance in the water and dives quicker which means I waste less time reeling to a depth and less effort. Also with a thinner bill in the front cuts the water better with less resistance than the bait he mentioned. By the same token the Manns lure is better to bounce the bottom because the lip stands up to the abuse. Many times lures with the longer bill work well in heavy cover because the lip strikes first and helps shield the hooks. Paul's fishing style is bottom bouncing and this lure stands up for that application. My style differs because I try to hit zones so my choice in lure will differ. The faster you reach a depth the more time you have to fish the depth before it makes its climb back to the surface which fits zone fishing.

Many times after catching a few fish the bass might seem to become wise to your lure. It is the change in vibration patterns that draw strikes. If you run a crankbait the same way all the time what makes it different. What makes this cast different then the ten before. When you strike an object you change the vibration pattern and sometimes the direction of the lure for a second. If you don't know at what point you will strike the object and just bottom bounce to the object nothing has changed. The bait will react to the structure the same giving the same presentation until you change angles. If you don't understand your dive curve you might miss the object. What I do is slow the bait until it is about to hit the object then smack it. Sometimes pausing the bait then make the lure smack the object. You are also better to change the lip you use to also change how the bait deflects off the object. Some guys just adjust their cranking speed or move their rod to change the vibration pattern. If you slow the bait enough it will stop vibrating (use a slow floating model) and you can sneak the lure by the fish pause it then jerk the rod for a strike. It is the vibration pattern that makes the fish think the lure is a healthy baitfish and active fish will bite. When you toy with the vibration pattern offering the bass something different you force the other fish to strike out of instinct.

Many people like to bottom bounce a crankbait off of the bottom. Each time a lure hits the bottom it sends off pressure waves. Much like how spinnerbait guys use a Colorado blade you can use a bottom bouncing bait to give much the same thump vibration pattern outside of the wiggle.

Tomorrow, BassResource.com member tartus, smacks down Hank Parker on spinnerbait fishing.

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Tomorrow, BassResource.com member tartus smacks down Hank Parker on spinnerbait fishing.

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;D

No worries Chris, I didn't take it that way. Good jumping off material. Don't know why I had the urge to speak up for Elias...Guess I like his gentle manner.

Real good stuff Chris.

Bass position on structure to either chill out or to intercept food. With most structure there is a natural flow of bait. Meaning that the bait normally moves through the structure at a certain direction either coming to the structure like a point or leaving the structure like when a shad school follows the edge of the point to move off to suspend in deep water. Each time you strike the object at different angles the bait reacts to the structure object different. Many times if you find either the right direction because of bait flow or the right direction because of the way the lure deflects off the structure both need to be explored and can make a difference in getting a strike or not.

When you lower your rod in the water you also loose feel because the rod is not able to vibrate as much as the lighter open air medium. When fishing close to objects this technique works well at getting extra depth. If your making a long cast where the depth is gained is before the lure makes its upward climb. It changes the point where the lure stops digging and starts climbing.

A very good read no matter who you agree with.

Chris, you know your crankbaits that's for sure.

Her favorite color is chrome

Chrome

Most crankbait anglers like to use chrome colors in clear to stained water. Many chalk up the success of this color to the fact that it mirrors light and gives fish a flash of light that draws the bass's attention. Many think that what they see above water is about the same as under water. But is it? Above water remember color is light wave lengths and the deeper you go the more light is filtered out. When you view chrome above water you see all colors that is why it has a mirror flash. Under water the lure will take on the color of the sky above. If you took a look under the lure while it is running the lure might reflect the image of the lake bottom. When looking at the same lure from the side you are going to see the reflective light or flash as the light bends as it moves. It will also take on some of the surrounding color. So around different cover or surroundings the bait will constantly change colors. Now if you ever watched baitfish they tend to try to blend into its surroundings to make it harder for predators to pick it out. Chrome very closely mimics this.

Clear Cranks

Remember I said that baitfish like to blend in. Clear lures also blend in and take on the lake bottom colors. Clear lures also change colors depending on lake bottom and how much light or direct light hits it. When skies turn cloudy or water turns dirty this effect fades and the lure becomes harder to pick out. Clear lures that have metal flake in them also add to the effectiveness in stained water by throwing off a flash. Clear lures because it takes on the surounding colors looks like a real bait.

Like the others have said, great read Chris! Thanks for posting!

Although every situation is different, I like the critique of Elias's article

WOW! Great post Chris! (or should I say Mr. Crankbait?)

Who would of thought, the mod that was knows his stuff.

I got this page bookmarked.  I suck at cranking and I want to improve in 2010. 

Thanks Chris!!!

I know who Paul Elias is; who's Chris?

http://proxy.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/media/angler?anglerId=14713

George we have an error in your link

Excellent.

Thank you for sharing. 

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George we have an error in your link

Thanks

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I know who Paul Elias is; who's Chris.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/media/angler?anglerId=14713

+1

A discerning critic is one who shows insight and understanding

Paul Elias: "The first thing that I would say, is the majority of bass fishermen are bank-beaters...the fact is, a lot of fishermen are just lazy."

Chris: "I disagree most anglers don't understand depth control...It is not a factor of being lazy."

Catt: The fact is the average angler is lazy they think if I only had this magic lure or this high tech equipment I would be a successful angler when they should be concerned with learning structure, prey species, cover and how each relate to each other.

Paul Elias: offshore structure fishing with deep-diving crankbaits is much harder. Learning to do it eats up a lot of time and it is hard work.

Chris: "Off shore bass are easier to catch because most people don't fish for them"

Catt: Off shore bass are easier to catch because they are less effected by anglers presents and weather patterns. But most anglers are unwilling to learn how to properly identify structure, learn how bass/prey relate to structure. It's a whole lot easier just to beat the bank fishing visible targets.

Paul Elias: I'm 50-50 on graphite or glass.

Chris: "Composite is the best of both worlds"

Catt: Totally and completely personal preference with neither being the "best"

I listen to every angler young or old gather information & material bit by bit that suits my bodies of water and my style of fishing.

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I listen to every angler young or old gather information & material bit by bit that suits my bodies of water and my style of fishing.

So

1 computer with keyboard + internet forum >

Classic Titles: 1

Times in the Classic: 14

Times in the Money: 131

Total Entries: 291

Total Weight: 6,912 lbs 15 ozs

     Career Winnings: $817,545.75

Avg. Per Tournament: $2,809.44

Cash Winnings: $681,257.75

Merchandise Bonus: $95,000.00

Cash Bonus: $41,288.00

Excellent.

To become a better angler we must discern (to come to know or recognize mentally) the information gathered regardless of source.

I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?

I would think that if you're going to critique the experiences of a professional angler like Paul Elias, especially on the technique of deep cranking, it would help add validity to ones counterpoint by offering up something as proof of your own success.

Pauls record is in the books and validates his statements, I only have this as a means of buying into the other .

My guess is Chris is not challenging Elias as much as using the interview as a jumping off for discussion. Fair enough.

I try hard not to make assumptions about poster's motives -although it can be hard to put a clamp on it at times.

No one should be compared with KVD or Paul Elias or anyone. As Catt said, you need to judge ("discern" -that's a better word) info as to how well it applies to your fishing. If you need clarity, ask. I like RoLo's footer: "It's not Who's right, but What's right." Let's not make this personal.

Much of what Chris has brought here doesn't appear to need much debate. Nor do I have to take his word for things I might question. I'm not confused by what he's said. If anyone is, then they should ask for clarity. If it's BS, it'll show. There are too many good anglers on this board for BS to get very far. And good anglers are not all tournament anglers, trophy hunters, much less top name pros. We all fish different waters, in different ways. Anyone, even novices, can come up with good insights. I'd hate to have a board where only KVD could attempt what Chris has.

Although there are some good points here, let's keep it civil fellas.

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You've got some really good points in there.

To be fair to Elias (and I know this is a jumping off point for you, not a challenge to Elias), when on the spot in an interview, lots of those contingencies get forgotten.

Good post.

X2 

For the most part you were not expanding on what Paul said, but rather disagreeing. That's fine. My question was meant to give you the opportunity to let these people know from where you were coming. We know that Paul is considered the Master of the crank bait in the fishing industry, and amongst his peers. I thought it would be good for you to add to your comments some background to your stated views. Sorry you took that negatively.

I particularly liked:

"Paul Elias: "I do a fishing school called In-depth Fishing."

Chris: I give the information freely"

Was this expanding on Paul's statements?

I once had a Prof tell me, when I had complained about working under an intense unfriendly biologist: "It's content, not style, that matters."

I had to wrestle with that idea, and still disagree. Content is delivered by style. And it does matter -if you are truly wishing to educate. Style can turn people on, or put people off.

I agree and I changed it. Thank you for pointing it out. I also changed around some of the post because I can see how someone could get the wrong impression.

Chris I believe your intent in this post is to share your experience and knowledge, and help others be better crankbait fishermen. I thank you for that. Crankbait fishing is an area of weakness for me, and I want to be better, so I read your views with interest.

I really like what Paul Roberts said about content being delivered by style. Great teachers are not always the greatest scholars, they are the ones who can communicate and share their knowledge effectively. Content is also revealed by context. When you use the context of Paul Elias said/I say, you're setting your views against his. You are not necessarily saying he's wrong and you're right, but in that context it can appear that way. When you do that with someone as respected as Elias you're going to ruffle some feathers. Just my opinion; it's worth what you paid for it.

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So

1 computer with keyboard + internet forum >

Classic Titles: 1

Times in the Classic: 14

Times in the Money: 131

Total Entries: 291

Total Weight: 6,912 lbs 15 ozs

     Career Winnings: $817,545.75

Avg. Per Tournament: $2,809.44

Cash Winnings: $681,257.75

Merchandise Bonus: $95,000.00

Cash Bonus: $41,288.00

Excellent.

Following that to its logical conclusion we should all be following Clunn in using the same power and action rod and gear ratio reel for all of our fishing.

No?  His stats beat Elias's so shouldn't we all be doing what Clunn does?

Personally, I'll listen to anyone who seems knowledgable about a topic and will question what they say and see if it can be applied to making me a better fisherman.  Why else would you be on this forum?  Because we're pretty much all just "1 computer with keyboard + internet forum ".

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So

1 computer with keyboard + internet forum >

Classic Titles: 1

Times in the Classic: 14

Times in the Money: 131

Total Entries: 291

Total Weight: 6,912 lbs 15 ozs

     Career Winnings: $817,545.75

Avg. Per Tournament: $2,809.44

Cash Winnings: $681,257.75

Merchandise Bonus: $95,000.00

Cash Bonus: $41,288.00

Excellent.

Following that to its logical conclusion we should all be following Clunn in using the same power and action rod and gear ratio reel for all of our fishing.

No? His stats beat Elias's so shouldn't we all be doing what Clunn does?

You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

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Personally, I'll listen to anyone who seems knowledgable about a topic and will question what they say and see if it can be applied to making me a better fisherman.

Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

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Why else would you be on this forum? Because we're pretty much all just "1 computer with keyboard + internet forum ".

This forum is a great vehicle for anglers new to the sport to learn. It can really cut the learning curve down. It has also been a great place to meet other fishermen to fish with either locally or through the road trip. This place is more than just a place to learn a new fishing technique or how this reel compares to that reel. I would hope those taking the time to question the opinions of a well respected Professional bass angler would also take the time to indicate what they've accomplished doing it their way vs. that of the Pro. If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

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Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

Well said fluke. I've been listening to chris a lot longer than most here and I can tell you if chris is posting you better read and have an open mind. You WILL learn something.

I think that without a doubt that Chris knows what he is talking about when it comes to crankbaits. If you take a look at the forums "best of" every post on cranks in there is from him.

http://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_forums/YaBB.pl?virboard=gen_bass;num=1253486034

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Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

Well said fluke. I've been listening to chris a lot longer than most here and I can tell you if chris is posting you better read and have an open mind. You WILL learn something.

I agree 100 %.

I think it would be a good idea to say that to Chris as well.  I'm sure its taken quite a bit of effort to put into writing all of the things that he has.

I for one have done the copy and paste to many of his writings so that I could print them out to read away from the computer.  Now you could say they have become the bathroom reader, but they have also given me the inspiration to double my crankbaiting efforts in the future.

He deserves a lot of credit for his efforts. 

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Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me. In the past several years Chris has taught me a large percentage of the things that I know about crankbait fishing. Paul Elias has taught me nothing because I'm not willing to pay for it.

The fishing industry will continue to shrink if people continue to try to sell their knowledge and others think that the only information worth anything comes from a select few.

x2!

I have read many of Chris' post and have became a better fisherman because of them and I know from that alone that he knows what he is talking about and ANYTHING he posts is definitely worth my time. If personal experience with his previous information isn't enough to convince someone then I'm not sure what is. Great post Chris and don't let these other members keep you from posting stuff like this.

I definitely agree with Paul more than Chris on this. The guy is an established Elite holding the BASS record for a 4 day tourney (which on the last day he used a deep diving crankbait). Outside of this forum, I have never heard of Chris (and pretty sure I never will.) Paul is on the record as a better fisherman and that alone is enough for me. But I read the rebuttals to Mr Elias and a lot of them aren't exactly accurate. Either way, it is interesting because I never read most of that stuff from Paul Elias and now I have.

"Who has experience that is actually recorded means absolutely nothing to me."

  Can't say I would agree with that.  In the event one's experience becomes record, it becomes fact, which removes speculation. 

  Just because Elias, KVD, IKE, or Clunn may have an opinion doesn't mean its an absolute.  Given their experience has been factually placed on record, this does add an element of validation that certainly isn't questionable when they do offer to comment.

  I see Carts point, very clearly.  When someone with no credentials wants to step in and clearly attempt to discredit the opinion of a highly decorated professional, it easily comes off as cheap comedy. In my initial read and in my opinon, there was no contrast of opinion, it was a pretty harsh point out of... Hey, Paul Elias is wrong.

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You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

Again, if you put more weight in "records on the books" then shouldn't we be religiously following Clunn or KVD or Skeet?  Why would you care about Elias who wasn't and isn't as dominant from a tourney wins standpoint as the three mentioned earlier?

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Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

I'd agree with this, but would apply it just as much to the pro's as I would to anyone else.  Why would the pro's give out all of their secrets in a free interview?  If a pro can charge for a seminar then why would they give it away for free?  Wouldn't they have an interest is a little misdirection to protect their edge?

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If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

I do.  If the information is correct and relevant then it doesn't matter if it comes from Joe Schmoe down the street or from KVD himself.  I'm not going to poo poo someone because they don't fish professionally.

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You're not getting this. Elias' record is in the books. He knows of what he speaks, especially on crank bait fishing. If you're going to disagree with him and expound further with your own dissertation on the how's or why's of how to fish a crankbait, I'd like to know why I or anyone else should listen. So far I know Chris has caught a small bass on a crankbait as seen in his avatar. Anything else?

Again, if you put more weight in "records on the books" then shouldn't we be religiously following Clunn or KVD or Skeet? Why would you care about Elias who wasn't and isn't as dominant from a tourney wins standpoint as the three mentioned earlier?

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Some of the best liars are fishermen. Unless I have some sort of validation, I take anything I read anywhere on any internet forum with a grain of salt.

I'd agree with this, but would apply it just as much to the pro's as I would to anyone else. Why would the pro's give out all of their secrets in a free interview? If a pro can charge for a seminar then why would they give it away for free? Wouldn't they have an interest is a little misdirection to protect their edge?

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If not, you wind up with anonymous posters named Bill, Bob or Frank throwing any sort of BS up that sounds reasonable without any sort of proof to back it up. Who gains from that?

I do. If the information is correct and relevant then it doesn't matter if it comes from Joe Schmoe down the street or from KVD himself. I'm not going to poo poo someone because they don't fish professionally.

Not sure why you keep bringing KVD or Clunn into this. The poster decided to call out Elias and attempt to create the impression that he knows more than said professional bass fishermen. You're deflecting the issue here.

Again, what has Chris done in his fishing career that would make me believe anything he says?

I've been slinging crankbaits about as long as Chris has been alive, does that make me an expert?

Rather than write a standalone deep cranking post, he chose to drag Paul Elias into it. The thread title tends to make it seem as though Elias isn't telling everybody the whole truth in that little article linked even though that article doesn't claim to be an all emcompassing, in depth piece on every aspect of deep cranking.

His "I give information for free" was a cheap shot. He'd get paid to do it if he had the string of accomplishments that Elias has.

If we were to only listen to anglers whose experience is actually recorded then Glenn should close membership, have a read only web site where anglers submit articles for review and after validation it is posted.

To repeat what I said eariler "I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?"

Had I known this post would have rubbed people the wrong way I would not have presented it the way I did and I am sorry. I know cart that my words and a little smallmouth are not that impressive. I am not a outspoken person who shows large catches on here or have an avatar holding up giants with a tournament shirt on. I am not one to have an ego or to look down upon anyone who is just starting on their bass fishing quest to learn. I many times take the time to answer questions on here that few want to answer from members. My post count next to my name I would guess 80% of them came from answering a new guys question and many of them where hard questions. If they where not hard questions they where basic mechanics questions that many felt to proud to answer or where beneath their skill level. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I broke down step by step how to fish a jig or a number of other lures. I took the time because I felt that teaching a new guy to fish was just that important. Long before this forum became what it is today it was guys like me that took the time to teach what they knew about bass fishing that set it apart from other forums. It was guys like me who didn't care about going to the grave with a trade secret who was willing to share knowledge. Many tournament anglers, like you say keep it for the guys who are willing to pay. But if it wasn't for guys like myself and others who are knowledgeable about bass fishing and tournament fishing and willing to share most of these members wouldn't be here. Remember most tournament anglers have the idea that if you knew what they knew then you don't need their knowledge anymore. Also if I taught you everything I knew about bass fishing then I am training the next person who will take money out of my pocket at the next tournament. KVD is a product in his own words of bassmaster magazine and show. So details about bass fishing become less descriptive in most print. They would like to maintain the gap that they have established on their knowledge. To be honest many tournament anglers really do feel this way. You take a issue of bassmasters these days and compare it to an old subscription and you are going to find a difference in how much the angler does reveal about fishing a technique or look at some old bassmaster shows for that matter. I remember when Stanley Jigs was a sponsor of Bassmasters or at least a tournament and everyone in a Congo line all said they caught their fish on his lures. When they got to Rick Clunn and Ray Scott said what did you catch them on a Stanley Spinnerbait? Rick said a spinnerbait but not Stanley's and talks about how he caught his fish on points. All the video that was shot was of him running around throwing a red rattletrap. Now everything he said would work for a spinnerbait bite and I am not saying he didn't use a spinnerbait to win that tournament. But what I am saying is that the same bite and vibration pattern that was described by him would also coincide with a rattletrap bite and vibration pattern. If you where him and had the edge that helped him figure those fish out would you be so inclined to help the other competitors learn from their mistakes for the next pre spawn tournament. Just a thought considering at the time most of the tour because of how it jumped from state to state landed in spawn, pre spawn and post spawn time frame. Many tournament anglers go through great lengths to give you the alternate pattern that could work but are a little more fuzzy when it comes to details when your talking money. Like I said I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers that was not my intent and I have edited the whole post.

Well I was avoiding this post since it went askew.

I do want to say, in defense of "pros", that they only have to hide certain things, for good reason I think. Just like I will bend over backwards to help anglers, but not share a particular thing or location I might feel is sensitive at that time.

There is SO much going on out there in the bass' world and so many ways to win a tournament or have a great day, I can't imagine pros -when not on a particular tournament bite -won't try to help anglers, or will try to mislead them.

It must also be understood that pros need to sell product -they are part of the tackle industry. I worked at a large tackle shop and took on that role, as part "expert advice" and part salesman. The conflict of interest is obvious and you need skill and the best intentions for anglers you meet in that context. But still lots of people are offended and dis-trusting right off the bat. Some WANT to put you down as trying to mislead.

As to this thread, style weighed in heavy, and the info got lost. It became personal. The discussion could have been about the details of crankbait fishing. And if you disagree or have a question, you can speak up -on topic.

Didn't see anything information-wise that Chris presented that was at issue. Nothing popped out I felt like I needed to challenge, question. Certainly nothing that would lead anyone astray. Discussion? Absolutely! There's always room for that.

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Had I known this post would have rubbed people the wrong way I would not have presented it the way I did and I am sorry. I know cart that my words and a little smallmouth are not that impressive. I am not a outspoken person who shows large catches on here or have an avatar holding up giants with a tournament shirt on. I am not one to have an ego or to look down upon anyone who is just starting on their bass fishing quest to learn. I many times take the time to answer questions on here that few want to answer from members. My post count next to my name I would guess 80% of them came from answering a new guys question and many of them where hard questions. If they where not hard questions they where basic mechanics questions that many felt to proud to answer or where beneath their skill level. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I broke down step by step how to fish a jig or a number of other lures. I took the time because I felt that teaching a new guy to fish was just that important. Long before this forum became what it is today it was guys like me that took the time to teach what they knew about bass fishing that set it apart from other forums. It was guys like me who didn't care about going to the grave with a trade secret who was willing to share knowledge. Many tournament anglers, like you say keep it for the guys who are willing to pay. But if it wasn't for guys like myself and others who are knowledgeable about bass fishing and tournament fishing and willing to share most of these members wouldn't be here. Remember most tournament anglers have the idea that if you knew what they knew then you don't need their knowledge anymore. Also if I taught you everything I knew about bass fishing then I am training the next person who will take money out of my pocket at the next tournament. KVD is a product in his own words of bassmaster magazine and show. So details about bass fishing become less descriptive in most print. They would like to maintain the gap that they have established on their knowledge. To be honest many tournament anglers really do feel this way. You take a issue of bassmasters these days and compare it to an old subscription and you are going to find a difference in how much the angler does reveal about fishing a technique or look at some old bassmaster shows for that matter. I remember when Stanley Jigs was a sponsor of Bassmasters or at least a tournament and everyone in a Congo line all said they caught their fish on his lures. When they got to Rick Clunn and Ray Scott said what did you catch them on a Stanley Spinnerbait? Rick said a spinnerbait but not Stanley's and talks about how he caught his fish on points. All the video that was shot was of him running around throwing a red rattletrap. Now everything he said would work for a spinnerbait bite and I am not saying he didn't use a spinnerbait to win that tournament. But what I am saying is that the same bite and vibration pattern that was described by him would also coincide with a rattletrap bite and vibration pattern. If you where him and had the edge that helped him figure those fish out would you be so inclined to help the other competitors learn from their mistakes for the next pre spawn tournament. Just a thought considering at the time most of the tour because of how it jumped from state to state landed in spawn, pre spawn and post spawn time frame. Many tournament anglers go through great lengths to give you the alternate pattern that could work but are a little more fuzzy when it comes to details when your talking money. Like I said I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers that was not my intent and I have edited the whole post.

Paragraphs/indents are your friend

Your edits have transformed the original post into a pretty insightful article about crank baits, congrats!

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If we were to only listen to anglers whose experience is actually recorded then Glenn should close membership, have a read only web site where anglers submit articles for review and after validation it is posted.

To repeat what I said eariler "I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?"

Your missing the point Catt.  Regardless of how you fish your Texas Rig, your gonna look like a tool if and when you jump on a public forum and call out how KVD chooses to fish his Texas Rig.

  That doesn't mean he's right and your wrong, as with every other element in our sport, there are no absolutes. For many readers such as myself, it's hard to take a post serious when the author attacks an established pro, with no basis for comparison.

After spending most of the early 90s thinking I was a crankbait aficionado, I only realize after the past two years of getting back into this style of fishing, how lucky I really was during that time. Now when I go fishing crankbaits, and I am speaking in terms of relatively deep, like 8 to 20 FOW, I analyze a great deal more. As I read Chris's post, I can only echo many of the points he made, and gained insight on a few more things I either suspected, or didn't realize altogether.

If you can get over your personal feelings about the post, I suggest you put Chris's points in the forefront of your mind next time you are out cranking.

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After spending most of the early 90s thinking I was a crankbait aficionado, I only realize after the past two years of getting back into this style of fishing, how lucky I really was during that time. Now when I go fishing crankbaits, and I am speaking in terms of relatively deep, like 8 to 20 FOW, I analyze a great deal more. As I read Chris's post, I can only echo many of the points he made, and gained insight on a few more things I either suspected, or didn't realize altogether.

If you can get over your personal feelings about the post, I suggest you put Chris's points in the forefront of your mind next time you are out cranking.

I agree.  At one time I thought I was a very good crankbait fisherman, but I've learned that I'm not even close. 

I missed the original draft of Chris's post so I can't comment on that.  As the post appears now, it is an excellent source of information for crankbait fishing and one that I have added to my favorites.  I'm not saying that it is a smart thing for a relatively unknown angler to call out a great crankbait fisherman such as Elias who has proven himself in the public eye.  If Chris made an error in presentation, it appears he has corrected it, so let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

I copied and pasted this in my folder....I wish i copied and paste the original too...it made a lot of sense!

First of all I would hope that those wanting to learn more about fishing crankbaits would read this thread and see it as it is. One angler comparing his opinions to another angler's and using that contrast to teach more details on a subject.

Now please take some time to get to know Chris. Look through his posts and see a guy with a good hart who loves to teach.

If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

There is no doubt that Paul is an awesome crankbait fisherman, he is one of my favorite pros. But I have never seen Paul on here on any other website, forum, or venue sharing the amount of information that Chris has shared here on BR. Maybe someday but not yet.

Teaching is what BR is all about. So who is willing to teach and who is willing to learn? If you choose to do neither then please don't discourage those who are trying to grow this sport through teaching.

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First of all I would hope that those wanting to learn more about fishing crankbaits would read this thread and see it as it is. One angler comparing his opinions to another angler's and using that contrast to teach more details on a subject.

Now please take some time to get to know Chris. Look through his posts and see a guy with a good hart who loves to teach.

If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

There is no doubt that Paul is an awesome crankbait fisherman, he is one of my favorite pros. But I have never seen Paul on here on any other website, forum, or venue sharing the amount of information that Chris has shared here on BR. Maybe someday but not yet.

Teaching is what BR is all about. So who is willing to teach and who is willing to learn? If you choose to do neither then please don't discourage those who are trying to grow this sport through teaching.

Exactly how i took it...Chris added more indepth information that Paul maybe wasn't able to share at the time.

This is really going to help me be able to apply what i learn on the water this spring now!  ;D

OK...since we're back on topic:

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Her favorite color is chrome

Chrome

Most crankbait anglers like to use chrome colors in clear to stained water. Many chalk up the success of this color to the fact that it mirrors light and gives fish a flash of light that draws the bass's attention. Many think that what they see above water is about the same as under water. But is it? Above water remember color is light wave lengths and the deeper you go the more light is filtered out. When you view chrome above water you see all colors that is why it has a mirror flash. Under water the lure will take on the color of the sky above. If you took a look under the lure while it is running the lure might reflect the image of the lake bottom. When looking at the same lure from the side you are going to see the reflective light or flash as the light bends as it moves. It will also take on some of the surrounding color. So around different cover or surroundings the bait will constantly change colors. Now if you ever watched baitfish they tend to try to blend into its surroundings to make it harder for predators to pick it out. Chrome very closely mimics this.

Clear Cranks

Remember I said that baitfish like to blend in. Clear lures also blend in and take on the lake bottom colors. Clear lures also change colors depending on lake bottom and how much light or direct light hits it. When skies turn cloudy or water turns dirty this effect fades and the lure becomes harder to pick out. Clear lures that have metal flake in them also add to the effectiveness in stained water by throwing off a flash. Clear lures because it takes on the surounding colors looks like a real bait.

Good stuff. I like plates too. Except under really high vis conditions in shallow water, chrome can be too much of a good thing. That's where the clear/translucent finishes come in.

One thing I disagree with is that plated finishes "flash" underwater. They only do so in shallows or VERY clear water in the depths. Water has the effect on light of scattering it. This diffuses flash to the point that flash cannot exist too deep, or even in shallow water with some color -with either dissolved, or especially, suspended material. Ralph Manns (accomplished angler, researcher and diver) has said that at a certain depth, chrome becomes black. (This can be good actually in some circumstances -as Chris alludes).

So...plated finishes may be at their best in clearer water, or shallower waters. Get some color to the water, and I like opaque colors -dark, whites, or chartreuse (hate it but man it catches fish).

Thanks Paul

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Anglers use lures that dig the bottom because they don't know what depth their lure actually runs. To compensate they run the lure on the bottom to maintain contact with the bottom contour. Lures that bounce the bottom speed up and slow down and cause a strike. Now what is going to happen when your point is filled with weeds. Understanding the diving curve and running depth is more important and more accurate.

One more, before I get back to work lol:

Contact works! We read about it all the time. But so does a free-running plug a lot of the time.

As Chris mentions, you've got to ID fish position, then get your plug to them. If you don't understand dive curves (with the rig in your hands), you'll most likely be out of position and not catching. Cranking can be considered difficult because it does require some understanding to get the needed precision -something cranks CAN offer. It's not just a chuck-n-wind game, esp when you are throwing to stuff you can't see.

Often away from shore fish can be all over a free-running plug -then things slow down. At that point contact can draw a few more. Other times, when fish aren't highly aroused on their own, contact is necessary.

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If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

I think we would prefer to have a "poll" if at all possible. Please don't give us the "pole".

   ;D

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If you insist on some type of record I can always start a pole. "Who's taught you more about crankbait fishing." Paul or Chris. I'm pretty sure that Chris would come out on top of that unfair pole.

I think we would prefer to have a "poll" if at all possible. Please don't give us the "pole".

;D

lol wow. i think cart wants a pole. lol

Many anglers use a form of cranking called bumping the stump or bumping cover. As I mentioned many anglers try to overpower the depth they are fishing to maintain in contact with the contour of the bottom. If you understand the dive curve of your lures you can present a crankbait in such a way to ram a key feature. This is why I say learning the dive cure is more accurate it is possible to make a cast and reel the bait down to hit a feature you have seen on your depth finder. Why would this be important? Well many times you will find structure that is not the text book kind that has a slow slope of a point. Maybe you will have some sort of bottom cover like a rock pile or brush pile or something that will hold fish. If you just followed the contour of the point itself you would never hit the key feature because the lure would not have enough room to reach the depth needed. By positioning the boat and your cast you are still able to reach the key feature. You just going to need to change your angle. Instead of casting and following the point by bumping the bottom you make an angled cast in the open water next to the point. By running the lure this angle you give the lure time to dig to the depth needed to reach the key feature that otherwise would be missed. Next you need to position the boat so that the lure reaches its max depth at the point where the key feature is. Sometimes your line might lay across the object which will give you an indication when you are about to strike it if you are using a deeper lure than what is required. You can feel when this happens and the vibration pattern will be different than when the line is not across something. Some anglers (bottom bouncers) use this technique of laying the line over the object to help make sure you are on target to strike the object to draw a strike. Other anglers (zone fishermen) use the dive curve to hit the same object. Then you have other guys who will weight down their crankbait to where they can just count the lure down to the depth needed then run the lure in line with the same object to strike it.

For myself I like to use a crankbait that has a slow rising float to it because I feel I can gain more depth than a high floating lure. In contrast a high floating lure tends to float off stick ups more so than a suspending model so owning a lure knocker would be wise. With a lure that has near neutral buoyancy the lure is not fighting the floatation to achieve depth. The difference might be only a foot or two but in the cranking world it might make the difference. Your going to naturally have the drag of the line cutting through the water that also play into a lures max depth. Many anglers use all the different variables that make a lure loose depth or gain depth to help fine tune depth control. Many anglers only list what prevents a lure from reaching its max depth but few ever take into consideration that it is also the same variables that help to refine your depth to hit a depth zone like suspended fish or objects like a hump or stump. You hear about it when it comes to shallow water fishing around weed flats and rattletraps. But the same holds true with other crankbaits and zone fishing. Also when you do make your cast remember that the distance that you cast and effects how much room you give the bait to reach its max depth. So another way to fine tune your depth is to change the point where the lure reaches its max depth by changing your casting distance and your boat positioning. You give the lure less room to run you loose depth. You change the distance you are positioned to the object you change the point where the lure digs and starts working its way to the surface. It is a means to fine tune your depth to hit the object. In plain English you can use the same lure for different depths by just changing the way you cast and how far away from the object you position yourself.

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Had I known this post would have rubbed people the wrong way I would not have presented it the way I did and I am sorry. I know cart that my words and a little smallmouth are not that impressive. I am not a outspoken person who shows large catches on here or have an avatar holding up giants with a tournament shirt on. I am not one to have an ego or to look down upon anyone who is just starting on their bass fishing quest to learn. I many times take the time to answer questions on here that few want to answer from members. My post count next to my name I would guess 80% of them came from answering a new guys question and many of them where hard questions. If they where not hard questions they where basic mechanics questions that many felt to proud to answer or where beneath their skill level. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I broke down step by step how to fish a jig or a number of other lures. I took the time because I felt that teaching a new guy to fish was just that important. Long before this forum became what it is today it was guys like me that took the time to teach what they knew about bass fishing that set it apart from other forums. It was guys like me who didn't care about going to the grave with a trade secret who was willing to share knowledge. Many tournament anglers, like you say keep it for the guys who are willing to pay. But if it wasn't for guys like myself and others who are knowledgeable about bass fishing and tournament fishing and willing to share most of these members wouldn't be here. Remember most tournament anglers have the idea that if you knew what they knew then you don't need their knowledge anymore. Also if I taught you everything I knew about bass fishing then I am training the next person who will take money out of my pocket at the next tournament. KVD is a product in his own words of bassmaster magazine and show. So details about bass fishing become less descriptive in most print. They would like to maintain the gap that they have established on their knowledge. To be honest many tournament anglers really do feel this way. You take a issue of bassmasters these days and compare it to an old subscription and you are going to find a difference in how much the angler does reveal about fishing a technique or look at some old bassmaster shows for that matter. I remember when Stanley Jigs was a sponsor of Bassmasters or at least a tournament and everyone in a Congo line all said they caught their fish on his lures. When they got to Rick Clunn and Ray Scott said what did you catch them on a Stanley Spinnerbait? Rick said a spinnerbait but not Stanley's and talks about how he caught his fish on points. All the video that was shot was of him running around throwing a red rattletrap. Now everything he said would work for a spinnerbait bite and I am not saying he didn't use a spinnerbait to win that tournament. But what I am saying is that the same bite and vibration pattern that was described by him would also coincide with a rattletrap bite and vibration pattern. If you where him and had the edge that helped him figure those fish out would you be so inclined to help the other competitors learn from their mistakes for the next pre spawn tournament. Just a thought considering at the time most of the tour because of how it jumped from state to state landed in spawn, pre spawn and post spawn time frame. Many tournament anglers go through great lengths to give you the alternate pattern that could work but are a little more fuzzy when it comes to details when your talking money. Like I said I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers that was not my intent and I have edited the whole post.

Paragraphs/indents are your friend

Your edits have transformed the original post into a pretty insightful article about crank baits, congrats!

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If we were to only listen to anglers whose experience is actually recorded then Glenn should close membership, have a read only web site where anglers submit articles for review and after validation it is posted.

To repeat what I said eariler "I fish a Texas Rig completely different than cart7t or Kevin VanDam so who is correct, only KVD?"

Your missing the point Catt. Regardless of how you fish your Texas Rig, your gonna look like a tool if and when you jump on a public forum and call out how KVD chooses to fish his Texas Rig.

That doesn't mean he's right and your wrong, as with every other element in our sport, there are no absolutes. For many readers such as myself, it's hard to take a post serious when the author attacks an established pro, with no basis for comparison.

You're the only person I've ever seen on here write so little yet use indentions as if you were writing a novel. ;D

You're not writing a formal letter or a book hahaha :

All I know is that when learning a new technique or improving upon one, every little bit helps.  I feel that chris' original post and subsequent edits and additions are very helpful and informative.   

Very nice piece of writting Chris 

Crankbaits that have a lot of roll when running through the water tends to dig less than lures that wiggle. Lures that wiggle side to side cut the water more and require less speed to reach depth. The side to side action along with the larger surface plane of a wider lip causes the bait to dig. The distance the lure travels from side to side does not gain or loose depth per say but it takes the bait longer to get there. When you have a lure that the line tie is at the nose the lure will dive less than a lure with the line tie at the lip. It changes the angle the lure runs through the water column and changes the pivot point.

The thicker the line the less casting distance you are able to cast. The less distance you can cast the less running room you give your lure. If you have a lure that dives more vertically you can make an adjustment. With lures that take some time to get depth you may never get there. You know how they say a crankbait ran on 8 pound test will dive a foot more than on 10 pound test line and so on. Well between 8lb line and 10 lb line you also loose 10 ft in your cast and so on.

I am going to try to break this one to you gently. I have cast lures and reeled them in with my tip up, down, and with the whole rod under water. On a average cast and casting with some sling behind it. Your lure will run the same depth regardless. What changes is the point where the lure makes its upward climb. If you make a short cast and can keep the line up off the water's surface you can make a bait run shallower.

I like to use wood lures and other people like plastic. What is important is air. If you read some of my other stuff I mention that wood is more responsive than plastic and reacts better when striking objects. Basically with a plastic lure you have a lot of dead weight that takes up room that could be air like in a wood bait. The thicker the plastic the less air can be trapped in it. The responsive part is that when you start your bait with wood the lure wiggles right now not a foot or two into your retrieve. Wood baits take less time to start and stop. Lures that are built with a ton of plastic take even more time. If a bait takes longer to start and stop when you strike an object it takes the lure longer to give you the back pressure vibration. The lure travels farther past the object than wood because it takes longer to start the vibration pattern to give you the vibration feedback into your hands. With wood you strike the object and you might be about a foot or less past the object before the starts its vibration pattern. With plastic when it strikes a object it will travel a greater distance before restarting its vibration pattern. Oval or round body lures have less friction in the water and dive more than flat lures. With lures that dive deep many add weight to gain distance in your cast. More weight takes up space for air. If you just add weight to a lure without countering it with more air your wood plug will act more like a plastic plug and will move a greater distance because of inertia so there needs to be a balance, air is key.

Thank you for the paragraphs! They really are helpful when there's lots of info.

"Air" in a crank sounds a bit like the ability of a spinner to engage, or a plastic tail to writhe -the reason I boil soft plastics.

Wood also just imparts more action -I can really feel wood plugs better than plastics.

Around weeds I like to use balsa lures. If you you use a longer lip than what is needed many times you can use the lip as a weed guard. If you don't drive the bait into the weeds but just reel it down until it touches the weeds surface then let it float up the reel it back down to touch it again. I am sure you have heard others go into great detail about this technique and the whole weed guard thing. But did you know that if you used a crankbait that the lip is positioned at the same angle as many square bill crankbaits that it is the best lure for the job for deeper weeds. This is the angle lip just for a reference http://www.bagleybait.com/7.html

Other lure companies make lures like this as far as the lip angle but it is the angle that keeps the lure out of the mess in weeds that is important. The angle also hits the cover at a different angle instead of digging in it slaps the top of the weeds. The angle also prevents the lure from digging in and if you choose the right depth can work very effectively. When you take a bait with this angle lip the length of the lip acts like a weed guard while keeping the bait out of the weeds. This style bait slowly works to reach its max depth. The dive angle is less dramatic than like a DT for example. On weed flats this is where this style lip really shines.

It just seems odd to me how the members of a forum can spend bash bass pro's for being tackle industry pimps one day and then the next bash a highly knowledgeable club guy.

It's that ole love hate thing we Americans have with our celebrities.

I cant believe I wasted 30mins of my time running through this post. Who in there right mind fishes with a crankbait anyways!!! A bucket of chicken liver is cheaper and more effective.  Just axt dick!!!!

Bookmarked for further reference. Couple of good reads. Thanks guys.

It was interesting reading different folks opinions about crankbaits.  All I know is that I'm not very good at it and I'd like to get better.

For deeper, structure type cranking, I've tried fiberglass crank rods and stiffer rods and the jury is still out.  I haven't tried any of the Loomis crankbait rods.

I've had much more success cranking trees, when fish are more up in the water column and not relating to the bottom.  The fish seem to be relating more to shade pockets created by horizontal limbs, etc.

The plan seems to be get on the side of the tree facing the sun,cast across the tree and bring the bait down into the crown of the tree, then up and out.  Easier said than done, some days I go hours without snagging, other days I snag every cast - very frustrating.

I've experimented alot with gear.  Currently I'm using a 6'8" All Star spinnerbait rod, 17 or 20 lb line and a Timber Tiger DC16.  I doubt that I get deeper than 10 feet with this setup, but I do'nt think you need to.

I think it is more important to bank the crank off and through the wood than it is to get extra deep.

Over the past three years, this has been my best technique for big

(20" or better) fish.  17 over the past three years.

Years ago, Infisherman magazine ran an article or two by Tom Seward, the guy who invented the Timber Tiger concept.

He recommended using a fairly stiff, 7' spinning rod, a big spinning reel (Diawa 2600) and 14 lb line.  Said that the spinning reel gave better feel during the retrieve.  I tried that and found it a little cumbersome, maybe a different feel during the retrieve, definitely a larger pain in the butt to throw around trees.

For medium distances and closer, I find myself pitching the crank more often than a regular casting motion.

My current thoughts on cranking. thanks for reading

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