Fluro+Lost Lures=Money Wasted 2024
JWOA reply :
Guys can you show me the best not for fluro. Every time I use this stuff I loose a bunch of lures. Im talking about 50 to 70 dollars worth. I want to try it again but scared too. Any help guys
5dollarsplash reply :
Palomar knot
ec1 reply :
Don't know what line you are using, but it is very important that you moisten the line with some saliva when cinching everything down.
In terms of knots, I like a uni knot with 2 loops into the eye of the hook. From what I've understood from over the years, any knot where the line goes through the eye of the hook twice is stronger.
slonezp reply :
What brand flouro? They are not all created equal.
SJex reply :
On 9/11/2013 at 11:04 PM, ec1 said:Don't know what line you are using, but it is very important that you moisten the line with some saliva when cinching everything down.
This is likely the problem.
Cgrinder reply :
Uni knot. Extra slobber.
S Hovanec reply :
He might be getting 'Vanished'?
I use a very wet Palomar without issue.
BassinLou reply :
If its expensive fluoro, then your culprit is a bad knot. Everyone has given you the right advise. Moisten your line before you cinch it down.
.ghoti. reply :
San Diego jam knot, well lubricated, cinched down S-L-O-W-L-Y
Grizzn N Bassin reply :
What they said^^^^^^ X extra slobber
jeb2 reply :
On 9/12/2013 at 1:49 AM, .ghoti. said:San Diego jam knot, well lubricated, cinched down S-L-O-W-L-Y
+1. Good knot that is easy to tie.
skeletor6 reply :
On 9/11/2013 at 10:50 PM, 5dollarsplash said:Palomar knot
All advice is sound. However, the palomar knot is the wrong choice for fluoro. It crosses over itself inherently weakening the line.
Find a good knot and find a good line. Practice your knot and get good at it. Everything should look neat when finished and pull through at the tag end. Any weakened points whether crossing over, friction from not moistening, or pulling the tag end through so its right in front of your knot will increase the chance of failure.
Once you get it down it won't be something you give any thought to.
SudburyBasser reply :
Tie it right and moisten properly and even the humble improved clinch knot works fine on fluoro. I've been using this the entire summer on a rod I keep in back of the Jeep for "emergencies" and caught bass and pike without issue.
JWOA reply :
On 9/11/2013 at 11:09 PM, slonezp said:What brand flouro? They are not all created equal.
Ive been using Viscous I havent tried anything else beside Trilene Fluro...I dont like the stuff
michang5 reply :
Hmm.. First time I've read something negative about the Palomar with an explanation to back it.
Looking through Knot Wars iPhone app, the Palomar is above average for fluoro (15.11 measurement on their machine). SD Jam is about the same.
The Berkley Braid and Triple Loop (both I've not heard of before) both rate in the 19s. Will have to investigate!
Btw... I posted in another thread about my dissatisfaction with #10 Vicious fluoro and lost lures. I've picked up a pack of 12# Invizx on the recommendation here and elsewhere.
michang5 reply :
Jay, I was writing my note about Vicious fluoro while you were writing yours. I think we share the same culprit!
slonezp reply :
On 9/12/2013 at 9:04 AM, skeletor6 said:All advice is sound. However, the palomar knot is the wrong choice for fluoro. It crosses over itself inherently weakening the line.
I have used the well spit on palomar knot for years without issue on decent quality flouro. Key words being decent quality. I've settled on Seaguar Abrazix as my current line of choice. I dislike Vanish and Trilene 100%. Seaguar Invizix is ok. BPS is crap. Haven't used much else that I can remember at this time.
Team9nine reply :
Testing I've seen has shown that different fluoro line brands sometimes perform better/worse with certain knots, but overall, all the common knots are fairly equivalent when averaged out. The stuff about a Palomar knot being a bad knot for fluoro is myth. Like any other knot, if tied properly (no crossed lines, etc.), there are no issues most of the time. In some cases, it even tests out as the superior knot with certain fluoro brands. It's the one I've chosen to use for the past several years. Pick a good common knot (San Diego Jam, Pitzen, Improved Clinch, Trilene, Uni, Palomar), learn how to tie it well, and as already suggested numerous times, lubricate and pull slowly and you shouldn't have any issues...unless you simply got a bad spool of line - it does happen from time to time.
-T9
Brian Needham reply :
knot problems with flouro is a dry knot problem MOST times.
I can use a 15 wrap improved clinch knot with 20# line and never have issue with it, but there will be spit running down my lure I wet it so much too, LOL.
ClackerBuzz reply :
the palomar knot is more 'unforgiving with fluoro. make sure you pull ur tag end thru so it get's 'burned' as opposed to ur main line. i go one step further and don't intiatally cinch the knot against the hook eye. instead i stick my index finger in the hoop and cinch down on my finger first...pull it all snug and then finish by pulling the wet tag end thru.
the san diego jam knot is much easier for beginner fluoro line users
skeletor6 reply :
On 9/12/2013 at 9:48 AM, slonezp said:I have used the well spit on palomar knot for years without issue on decent quality flouro. Key words being decent quality. I've settled on Seaguar Abrazix as my current line of choice. I dislike Vanish and Trilene 100%. Seaguar Invizix is ok. BPS is crap. Haven't used much else that I can remember at this time.
Seaguar used to have on their fluorocarbon packaging to specifically not tie the palomar knot. It is not recommended for fluorocarbon.
On 9/12/2013 at 9:58 AM, Team9nine said:Testing I've seen has shown that different fluoro line brands sometimes perform better/worse with certain knots, but overall, all the common knots are fairly equivalent when averaged out. The stuff about a Palomar knot being a bad knot for fluoro is myth. Like any other knot, if tied properly (no crossed lines, etc.), there are no issues most of the time. In some cases, it even tests out as the superior knot with certain fluoro brands. It's the one I've chosen to use for the past several years. Pick a good common knot (San Diego Jam, Pitzen, Improved Clinch, Trilene, Uni, Palomar), learn how to tie it well, and as already suggested numerous times, lubricate and pull slowly and you shouldn't have any issues...unless you simply got a bad spool of line - it does happen from time to time.
-T9
The point you are missing is that a palomar knot, when tied correctly, crosses over on itself weakening the line. The palomar knot used to be considered one of the strongest knots, but that is not the case anymore, especially for fluorocarbon. More and more pros have completely moved away from this knot due to its inherent proclivity to weaken fluorocarbon. Case in fact, Kevin Van Dam, Aaron Martens, Edwin Evers and others have made the switch and have openly made this suggestion.
However, lets not take this too far. This does not mean that if you go out and tie a Palomar Knot on FC that you will break off every time. Moreso, I would take a carefully tied palomar knot over a sloppy (insert knot here), anyday. I believe that the pitzen knot is the best knot for FC, followed by a san diego double jam. Not single. This is my opinion.
In regards to testing, I have not seen the pitzen put up against the palomar on in a valid experiment on a high quality FC which exhibits good knot strength such as Seaguar Tatsu. A simple experiment done by tackletour shown the palomar being 7.7% weaker than a simple improved clinch knot. http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg4.html
I would suggest that this percentage is much higher when compared to the pitzen, in a testing environment that I indicated.
SirSnookalot reply :
I have no objection to use any knot whether it be the basic ones I use or more sophisticated ones, as long as it holds. In the event I have a continuing knot issue, I'm changing the line not my knots. I'm sticking with outdated knots, lines, rods and reels but still banging out real nice fish, why change?
bmlum415 reply :
Only time I've lost something on flouro is if I snag rocks and trees. Try using a better knot or better flouro. Except once when my back cast snagged my partners line and snapped my brand new storm arashi off on 15lb invisx but that was my error. I'm probably the first one to lose one on the Cali delta since it was a a little over a month ago
Sam reply :
On 9/11/2013 at 10:50 PM, 5dollarsplash said:Palomar knot
X2.
Also, are you running the line through your forefinger and thumbnail to search for knicks, cuts, abrasions, etc. in the line as you fish? You need to do this with all line and cut out the damaged line and retie.
Are you retying your knots after two or three fish? If not, you have to start doing this. It is critical to successful fishing.
Are you "burning" your line when you tie your knots. You know to wet the line before tightening the knot but do you feel the line above the knot to note if you have "burned" it? The line will feel wavy and you can usually see the wavy line. Cut it out and start over.
Is the line fresh? Are you using new line or line you have had for a number of years? Fresh line is the best. Buy it at tackle stores that have a high turnover of fishing line.
Are you storing the line in your home? If not, start storing the line in a temperature controlled environment, like your man cave or a clothes drawer. Keep the line out of sunlight and temperature swings.
After doing the above let us know if you are having more success.
And learn the Palamore knot. Once you master it you will love it.
Keep us posted on this topic as you do the above.
Team9nine reply :
On 9/12/2013 at 11:42 AM, skeletor6 said:The point you are missing is that a palomar knot, when tied correctly, crosses over on itself weakening the line. .
In regards to testing, I have not seen the pitzen put up against the palomar on in a valid experiment on a high quality FC which exhibits good knot strength such as Seaguar Tatsu. A simple experiment done by tackletour shown the palomar being 7.7% weaker than a simple improved clinch knot. http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg4.html
skeletor - the point I failed to make clearly about crossed lines was in reference to the double line that initially goes around the split ring and forms the base of the knot, not the later crossover that you mention. Very easy to get sloppy with that part and doom the knot to failure before even starting.
As for testing, again, it seems to depend on line brand. In your example, they stated the line brand used as "unnamed", yet in later reviews and tests with specific fluorocarbon lines such as in the links below, you'll see the Palomar was the superior knot in strength by several percentage points.
http://www.tackletour.com/reviewsugoifc.html
http://www.tackletour.com/reviewtrilenefc.html
All I can state is that after trying several different knots over many years of fluoro use, I've gone back to and settled on the Palomar (which I've always used for everything else) without regret. The couple percentage points difference give or take with all these knots probably amount to little in the real world as opposed to the lab.
On the pitzen knot, I haven't seen any specific numbers recently in head-to-head testing, but I believe it ties easier and cleaner than the San Diego jam, and therefor seems to be at least as good, if not better in most cases. Again, just opinion at this point. I know several people who do recommend it, and some that think they're tying the san diego but actually aren't (instead tying the pitzen) because they don't actually run the line through loop formed at the bottom.
-T9
einscodek reply :
On 9/11/2013 at 10:25 PM, Jay_White said:Guys can you show me the best not for fluro. Every time I use this stuff I loose a bunch of lures. Im talking about 50 to 70 dollars worth. I want to try it again but scared too. Any help guys
Fluoro line knots gave me fits as well and I tried palomar, clinch knots.. all unraveled losing me lures as well.
I've a forceful whippy cast and the knots used to unravel first.
The floaters Ill just go and fetch but the sinkers.. well money lost man.
Search youtube for Shaw Grigsby and flurorocarbon knot.. his demonstrated knot saved me much angst and I've never broken off at the fluoro knot ever since.. I think at least for me Shaw Grigsby is correct.. his "forget the name" knot is the best on fluoro ..
youtube.com/watch?v=3I905PXIYww
ColdSVT reply :
I used to tie the palomar knot with seaguar 60# and 40# flouro for my tarpon leaders...never lost a one to knot failure...if it can hold up to a 150# tarpon for 90mins a 20# flouro mainline with a palomar knot can and will hold any bass when tied right
J Francho reply :
Quote
All advice is sound. However, the palomar knot is the wrong choice for fluoro. It crosses over itself inherently weakening the line.
Oh please. Every single knot known to man, "crosses over itself." Otherwise, it is just a twist, not a knot. The Palomar, when properly tied, has proven time and time to be one of the strongest knots used with fluorocarbon. I've been using a Palomar with a drop shot rigs and line as light as 2 lbs. without issue for over a decade. If there was a problem, I'd see it. I'd go so far to say, IF you can tie a proper Palomar knot, then it is THE knot to use with fluorocarbon.
If you are having issues with a Palomar breaking - it's user error, not the knot. I proved this time and time again with others at shows, testing the knots on the same line - my knot against someone else that claimed to have issues with knot, using a scale. Mine always broke above the stated line strength. Once I coached them on how to tie a proper Palomar, and take their time cinching the proper end (pull both the main and the tag, until the main is tight, then pull only tag end, all along keeping the knot moist and cool) their knots were as strong as mine. most often, they were allowing too many twists in the doubled line, and cinching the wrong end, resulting in kinks in the mainline, before the knot. If that line isn't straight, cut off and retie, because you failed to tie a strong and proper knot.
I know this sounds militant, but SO MANY TIMES, I hear the complaint about such and such knot, only to prove it was user error, not the knot. Fluorocarbon will separate the men from the boys when it comes to knot tying. Practice, test the strength, and practice some more.
BTW, if a Palomar is too difficult, I've found most decent fluorocarbon lines hold an improved clinch knot very well. InvisX, Tatsu, Berkley 100%, and based on my bud's success with Vanish (yes, I said Vanish) that too.
ClackerBuzz reply :
some great advice. at the end of the day you need to become a better student of fluoro AND knots.
this means picking a knot and any reputable fluoro and sitting down in front of the tv and tying, retying, trying that knot 100+ times. test every knot to break strength. take note if ur line is breaking at the knot or 8 inches above it (anywhere above the knot is good news b/c ur line is breaking BEFORE ur knot). hold it up to the light to see if you see any line burn on ur main line.
this builds practice and experience. both will build confidence. don't be that guy that waits till he's on the water to practice knots.
JWOA reply :
On 9/13/2013 at 12:59 AM, einscodek said:Fluoro line knots gave me fits as well and I tried palomar, clinch knots.. all unraveled losing me lures as well.
I've a forceful whippy cast and the knots used to unravel first.
The floaters Ill just go and fetch but the sinkers.. well money lost man.
Search youtube for Shaw Grigsby and flurorocarbon knot.. his demonstrated knot saved me much angst and I've never broken off at the fluoro knot ever since.. I think at least for me Shaw Grigsby is correct.. his "forget the name" knot is the best on fluoro ..
youtube.com/watch?v=3I905PXIYww
Thats what I'm going to end up doing. Thanks
PABASS reply :
I tie the Uni knot for FC, tried it with several brands and works well and easy to tie.
JWOA reply :
On 9/13/2013 at 2:04 AM, PABASS said:I tie the Uni knot for FC, tried it with several brands and works well and easy to tie.
I'll look that one up
Hyrule Bass reply :
more than likely, youre not tying the knot properly. i just dont get all the knot problems people have. i use two knots for all my fishing and they havent failed me. i use the improved clinch more than any knot, next i seldomly on occasion use the palomar knot. neither have failed me. ive never had a lure go flying across the lake on a cast, and while it may cost me one day, i never retie my knots for the sake of it. visible line damage, yes, then i will retie. also, ive never had a fish pull my knot loose while fighting it, never had a break-off at the knot either. even when catfishing all weekend, if i dont get snagged and lose my tackle, then i often will have the same original knot i tied to start with hold all weekend long.
if your lures are flying off constantly, then youre probably not tightening your knots enough. as others have stated many times in this thread, wet your knot with some good old spit before tightening it down. it will reduce friction on the line when tightening it, and it will pull tight much smoother than dry line as the spit lubes it.
einscodek reply :
On 9/13/2013 at 2:53 AM, Jay_White said:I'll look that one up
Depends on #lb Fluoro.. I use 25# and the uniknot will unravel.. the fluoro is too slick and thick at the higher # for uniknot .. I lost several lures on that and I love and use uniknot alot for mono and braid
JWOA reply :
On 9/14/2013 at 7:08 AM, einscodek said:Depends on #lb Fluoro.. I use 25# and the uniknot will unravel.. the fluoro is too slick and thick at the higher # for uniknot .. I lost several lures on that and I love and use uniknot alot for mono and braid
Will 20# test work fine??
Loop_Dad reply :
Jay, I use Pitzen with all type of lines, including fluro.
http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/pitzen-knot
I actually use up to 7 wraps instead of 4. Still it is easy to tie and very strong. I tried the double version of this (Shaw Glibsy one) before, but didn't like it because it has three ends to trim. I like to keep things simple. My tip to tie this knot nice an clean is to moisten and bring the knot close to the hook by your finger, before you pull the line to tighten it up.
Good luck.
einscodek reply :
On 9/14/2013 at 9:03 AM, Jay_White said:Will 20# test work fine??
Give it a shot if you dare.. I'd go with Shaw Grigsby.. have not lost a lure yet on it.. what a relief with the cost of lures these days!
Mikey40 reply :
Palomar all the way...like others said...must be very wet! 
NorcalBassin reply :
Never had a problem with the palomar knot on FC and I use really light test out here.
Jaheff reply :
LRF_Advanced_Spangler_Knot.pdf
New knot to me that i have replaced the SD jam knot with. No need to moisten.
I have only used it on Seaguar premier which is a harder leader material, and tested
it on Izor co poly in garage with good results.
Texas bassman reply :
ive tied nothing but polmars and never lost a lure unless i get hung up. using 12 15 and 20 lb test. ive used berkely trilene 100
% fluorocarbon. invisix, bps xps flurocarbon, seaguar red label.
Bluebasser86 reply :
I tie either a San Diego Jam or Palomar. Tie them carefully, cinch them slowly, and keep them wet during the cinching process. Give the knot a good pull test after it's cinched down and you should know right away if you tied a good knot or not. It's amazing how easily even 20 or 25 pound line breaks with a poorly tied knot.
SirSnookalot reply :
If I'm using a light leader I'm pretty cautious cinching as not to burn the line, it hasn't been proven to me burning weakens the line, but why take a chance. When I'm tying a heavier leader 30# and up I'll wet it down at home, by the water there seems to be enough humidity that spitting on the line isn't necessary. Pretty common practice to use a pliers or place the hook on an immovable object and cinch the knot hard.
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