Finesse breakoffs - what to change? 2024
txchaser reply :
I've been having a series of breakoffs with bigger fish (not on the hookset) and I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.
Drag is light enough that the fish are able to spin the drag.
Seems fine under constant pressure like when they are running for deep water. But a head snap/shake gets a breakoff.
Rod is a M/F spinning rod, so seems to have a decent amount of give.
I check the leader for nicks/abrasions more regularly, that helped.
Moved from 6lb blue label to 8lb blue label to 8 lb yo-zuri copolymer (fish-n-fool/uni with 2x through eye), each of those helped some.
Have been able to boat 4.5-5lb fish with the yo-z, but have lost multiple fish on it.
On one hand I could just upsize again. On the other hand, at some point it seems silly to have a finesse presentation with 10lb line. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.
Two choices in front of me 1) re-tie more often, assuming the terminal knot is getting stressed or 2) just upsize.
Any other alternatives?
The Bassman reply :
Any mono line (nylon, copoly, or fluoro) needs periodic retie at the terminal. Do you see a little bit of kink or curliness at your break point? It's probably the knot. Also (and this is a problem I have even with light braids and no leader) is being a bit heavy handed. Your tackle choices seem just fine.
WRB reply :
YoZuri 8 lb test is .011dia equal to Sunline or Seagaur FC 12 so in reality you are already well beyond a 10 lb test leader.
I don't recommend using FC due to it's rattlesnake habit of breaking at knots under sudden impact loads like a big bass making a quick turning hard run.
I suspect your drag is set above 1/3 line strength or it's not functioning smoothly.
When bass weight approach or exceed the line strength everything must be perfect.
Knot failure happens when the line is over loaded, it's the weakest link. Line failure is usually a result of damage, over stretched, abraided or nicked, over heated, UV degradation etc.
The upside is you can fix this problem and you are hooking big bass.
1. Check the reel drag by setting it using a scale in lbs, Yo-Zuri 8 lb is actually 12 lb line breaking strength bout 10 lb knot strength, set at 3 1/2 lbs. After setting test your knots by pulling on the line with fast load force.
2. Test the reel drag after setting by tieing the line to something solid, let out a few feet of line, hold the rod at 45 degrees upright and pull agianst the line, knots and reel drag by walking backwards about 20 feet. You will find 3 1/2 lbs of drag will max out your rod so don't high stick keep it no higher then 45 degrees. The drag should slip smoothly and evenly without any jerking.
Tom
LxVE Bassin reply :
are you fishing a drop shot?
txchaser reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 1:49 AM, WRB said:
1. Check the reel drag by setting it using a scale in lbs, Yo-Zuri 8 lb is actually 12 lb line breaking strength bout 10 lb knot strength, set at 3 1/2 lbs. After setting test your knots by pulling on the line with fast load force.
Thanks @WRB - set this at the 45 degree angle or a direct pull off the reel? And assuming the drag is too high vs not smooth enough, what do I do with the bass that's running off spooling the line, just hope there's no cover it headed for to get tangled in?
On 5/13/2019 at 1:56 AM, LxVE Bassin said:are you fishing a drop shot?
Not recently; curious where you're headed though.
Fishin' Fool reply :
I'd set the drag a bit on the loose side than risk it being too tight on a big fish. Also fishing with finesse gear sometimes it just happens and you didn't do anything wrong.
Tim Kelly reply :
Is it breaking at roughly the same place every time?
txchaser reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 2:26 AM, Tim Kelly said:Is it breaking at roughly the same place every time?
Since I got better about checking the leader for nicks or abrasions, I think it's almost always been at the terminal knot.
J.Vincent reply :
Check your rod guides for any issues that could cause micro abrasions and/or consider a different knot for connecting to your terminal tackle.
NorcalBassin reply :
Over the past month I've ran into some big fish on my wacky rig spinning rod setup (M/XF with 7# Sniper, palomar knot). All on the same line (retied of course) I've landed a 9 pound LMB, 25+ pound carp, and three 8-12 pound catfish with dozens of other fish caught in between without a single breakage. The last catfish took me on a wild ride and even took a 45* turn on a metal dock piling followed by some death rolls like a gator. The line looked like it had about 18" of snot on it, and I was beyond shocked I landed that fish.
My guess would be it's a drag issue (too tight, high start up inertia, not smooth/consistent), nicks/inconsistencies in the line, a knot issue, or the head snap/shake occurs when the rod isn't loaded up at an angle to absorb the stress. All things considered, just loosening up the drag a bit more is probably going to work for you.
islandbass reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 2:46 AM, txchaser said:Since I got better about checking the leader for nicks or abrasions, I think it's almost always been at the terminal knot.
I was about to ask the same thing as Tim. Looks like you found your issue. Frequent reties is a given in finesse fishing.
Equally important is the quality of the knot tied.
If the fish are still strong enough to violently shake off to break off, perhaps it was a bit premature to conclude they were ready to grab. I would have to actually see you in action because I’ve caught lots of smallies in the 3-4 range never lost one to a bad or weak knot UNLESS I let
laziness in checking my knot supersede my usual aversion to fishing knowing full well it was time to check my knot.
Tim Kelly reply :
Yep. looks like you need to work on your knot tying skills. Also worth checking the eye of the bait you're tying to for roughness. If you're texas rigging, check the weight, a rough bore will wear the line out quickly.
islandbass reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 3:16 AM, Tim Kelly said:Yep. looks like you need to work on your knot tying skills. Also worth checking the eye of the bait you're tying to for roughness. If you're texas rigging, check the weight, a rough bore will wear the line out quickly.
So true! That is often overlooked! We check our knots and rod guides but not many check that.
BaitFinesse reply :
I use 10# sniper or 8# big game for leader material when finesse fishing with 20# braid. Works for me. When moving down to UL baits I use 10# nanofil green no leader. I've tried 7# finesse fluorocarbon but it broke too easily.
roadwarrior reply :
#4 Yo-Zuri Hybrid
WRB reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 2:03 AM, txchaser said:Thanks @WRB - set this at the 45 degree angle or a direct pull off the reel? And assuming the drag is too high vs not smooth enough, what do I do with the bass that's running off spooling the line, just hope there's no cover it headed for to get tangled in?
Not recently; curious where you're headed though.
It's good to test the whole rod/reel/line combo to get a feel what the drag setting is like, 3 1/2 lbs of drag seems light but it isn't! Bass don't run in a straight line very far, they tend make hard turns changing directions in lieu of long runs. Getting freight trained is usually a different specie of fish, the disclaimer is usually! I had. 17.6 lb bass freight train me making a 100 yard run that I had to get on the trolling with, very unusual.
If the drag pressure isn't enough use your finger tip on the edge of the spool momentarily to increase pressure as needed. I have better control of big bass with a bait casting reel then spinning reels.
Got to match the tackle with circumstances, heavy cover require heavier tackle, sparse cover you can use lighter finesse tackle. The object is catching bass not losing them.
I prefer 10 to 12 lb line on a bait casting outfit for bass over 5 lbs but use finesse spinning to get bit on a tough bite.
The San Diego Jam knot is good with both FC or mono, Palomar can be marginal depending on how it's tied.
Tom
Hammer 4 reply :
Maybe a silly question, but are you wetting the knot before cinching it up..? If not, that may be part of your problem.
blckshirt98 reply :
What kind of knot are you using? I used to use 6-7lb fluoro for my leader but had way too many breaks at a knot (dropshotting). I upped it to 8lb test which improved the break issue quite a bit, but would still have breaks when I had line burn at a knot (I'm lazy and will fish the rig anyways instead of re-tying). I settled on 10lb test and my breaking issues are almost non-existent unless I've been using a rig for quite a while without re-tying. The 10lb test seems to be threshole for forgiveness with line burn. Don't be afraid to use a heavier # fluoro leader, theoretically the line is invisible in the water. Andy Cuccia said at a seminar that he would bubba shot with 20lb fluoro leaders in the Delta, the fish don't care.
txchaser reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 5:05 AM, WRB said:17.6 lb bass freight train me making a 100 yard run that I had to get on the trolling with, very unusual.
I hope I have this problem 
On 5/13/2019 at 6:44 AM, Hammer 4 said:Maybe a silly question, but are you wetting the knot before cinching it up..? If not, that may be part of your problem.
Yes, but it's a good question to ask. Thank you.
On 5/13/2019 at 5:05 AM, WRB said:If the drag pressure isn't enough use your finger tip on the edge of the spool momentarily to increase pressure as needed.
Ah!
On 5/13/2019 at 7:30 AM, blckshirt98 said:What kind of knot are you using?
Berkley Braid on Flouro (which is close to a doubled SD Jam. It's the three-tag knot.
Fish-n-Fool on Copoly which is just a uni with an extra turn through the eye. Didn't work well on flouro compared to the Berkley Braid, about 20% less break strength.
WRB reply :
The old braid knot* is a double line clinch knot, bulky but strong. SD jam knot is different, tied into the line and slides down to the lure without overheating or deforming the line when clinched. I always wet any fishing line knot when clinching it tight.
Look closely at the knots for crossed over coils and any shiny flat spots on the main line, tag ends is OK.
* tied it back in the 50's using Dacron braid, illustrated on Ashaway line box.
Tom
CrankFate reply :
Use heavier line. BFS is about thin line, it doesn’t have to be weak line. Get some 6lb braid and use a 10-12lb leader.
TOXIC reply :
You are using a leader from braid? You are overpowering your leader material and exactly why I don't like leaders. Pressure from fish or hooksets from non-stretch braid to a leader "shocks" the leader material (even more with a shorter leader). I know many like the braid to leader setup but to me, that is not finesse. While changing your knot may help, I would not be surprised if you still break off unless you upsize or lengthen your leader.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
Try longer tag at the knot.
Allaroundfishing reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 2:49 AM, J.Vincent said:Check your rod guides for any issues that could cause micro abrasions
^^ Cant stress this enough, Ive got in the habit of checking mine regularly after finding that two of my most used rods had guides with little burrs on them that were causing nicks.
On 5/13/2019 at 8:50 PM, TOXIC said:You are using a leader from braid? You are overpowering your leader material and exactly why I don't like leaders. Pressure from fish or hooksets from non-stretch braid to a leader "shocks" the leader material (even more with a shorter leader). I know many like the braid to leader setup but to me, that is not finesse. While changing your knot may help, I would not be surprised if you still break off unless you upsize or lengthen your leader.
My dad is the most stubborn fisherman youve ever met and he throws straight braid exclusively on spinning rods, his shaky head set up is 30lb braid and he wont go any lighter because "he could get me all wrapped up in a rock or brush and the braid aint gonna give up" ???? He hates leader just because "its another chance at a knot slipping or failing"
ChrisD46 reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 1:49 AM, WRB said:YoZuri 8 lb test is .011dia equal to Sunline or Seagaur FC 12 so in reality you are already well beyond a 10 lb test leader.
I don't recommend using FC due to it's rattlesnake habit of breaking at knots under sudden impact loads like a big bass making a quick turning hard run.
I suspect your drag is set above 1/3 line strength or it's not functioning smoothly.
When bass weight approach or exceed the line strength everything must be perfect.
Knot failure happens when the line is over loaded, it's the weakest link. Line failure is usually a result of damage, over stretched, abraided or nicked, over heated, UV degradation etc.
The upside is you can fix this problem and you are hooking big bass.
1. Check the reel drag by setting it using a scale in lbs, Yo-Zuri 8 lb is actually 12 lb line breaking strength bout 10 lb knot strength, set at 3 1/2 lbs. After setting test your knots by pulling on the line with fast load force.
2. Test the reel drag after setting by tieing the line to something solid, let out a few feet of line, hold the rod at 45 degrees upright and pull agianst the line, knots and reel drag by walking backwards about 20 feet. You will find 3 1/2 lbs of drag will max out your rod so don't high stick keep it no higher then 45 degrees. The drag should slip smoothly and evenly without any jerking.
Tom
*Very useful suggestions ...
frogflogger reply :
Learn to back reel - lots of huge fish have been landed on 4-6# line back reeling - bass over 7 - muskies -
Until the cardinal 4 we never trusted drags and had to learn to back reel - still back reel bass fishing
CrankFate reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 8:50 PM, TOXIC said:You are using a leader from braid? You are overpowering your leader material and exactly why I don't like leaders. Pressure from fish or hooksets from non-stretch braid to a leader "shocks" the leader material (even more with a shorter leader). I know many like the braid to leader setup but to me, that is not finesse. While changing your knot may help, I would not be surprised if you still break off unless you upsize or lengthen your leader.
Noo000ooo00ooooOooOO
The knots will not fail. The trick in that is using a rod that will bend!!! If the rod flexes a lot, the knot shock break doesn’t happen. I have only had a few line breakages in my whole life. 6 or less. 4 of those were on monster bass in Disney world the day I got my PB. I had 4 and 6lb mono that broke 4 times on 4 consecutive bites, before hooking up with my PB up on the 5th, using the guide’s heavier set up. Only one of the 6 was on braid with a mono leader and the leader broke about a foot up from the hook knot because it was nicked because we were fishing in rocks, I hooked a monster 15-20lb fish (not a bass) and took someone else’s advice and set my leverdrag to max shortly before the hookup. I got in three cranks, nearly lost my left arm and then pop—fish gone. The other was assumed to be a bluefish that broke a nylon leader. That’s literall every line break I’ve had in 40+ years.
(((((Many might just say it’s because I catch small fish)))))
For breakoffs, IMO, get a lighter, slower rod and thinner stronger line.
fishindad reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 12:42 AM, txchaser said:I've been having a series of breakoffs with bigger fish (not on the hookset) and I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.
Drag is light enough that the fish are able to spin the drag.
Seems fine under constant pressure like when they are running for deep water. But a head snap/shake gets a breakoff.
Rod is a M/F spinning rod, so seems to have a decent amount of give.
I check the leader for nicks/abrasions more regularly, that helped.
Moved from 6lb blue label to 8lb blue label to 8 lb yo-zuri copolymer (fish-n-fool/uni with 2x through eye), each of those helped some.
Have been able to boat 4.5-5lb fish with the yo-z, but have lost multiple fish on it.
On one hand I could just upsize again. On the other hand, at some point it seems silly to have a finesse presentation with 10lb line. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.
Two choices in front of me 1) re-tie more often, assuming the terminal knot is getting stressed or 2) just upsize.
Any other alternatives?
As you mentioned, using more than 10lb line with "finesse" small baits and hooks will probably yield significantly less bites. Does the line break at the lure connection, line-to-leader connection, or somewhere else? If I were you, after carefully examining your gear (tip top, line roller, guides, etc) with a Q-tip for nicks or scratches, I would ditch the braid plus leader and go to straight YZ hybrid or quality FC line like Sniper. Eliminate one knot/potential weak point. Properly tied leader knots will hold but rarely at 100% strength compared to no knot. Then use a simple Palomar knot at the lure/hook. If you still get breakoffs, then you either have a ton of toothy critters in your waters (we have pike and muskie) or something is wrong with your knot-tying skills. Eliminate one at a time until you figure out what the cause is.
txchaser reply :
On 5/13/2019 at 8:50 PM, TOXIC said:You are using a leader from braid?
Yep. Related I was thinking about whether a rod with a bit more give would help too... if I'm loaded on the rod already, and braid to leader so no give there, and drag is sticky or set too high, and not retying enough, everything has to go right since there's no margin of error.
On the line guide comments, two different rods, so probably not that, but worth checking.
I'm really curious to see how smooth the drag startup is, especially after I take it apart and clean/re-grease... And maybe now I can understand the difference between a $50 okuma and a $200 shimano, because I can't tell where else it would be.
Thanks again everyone for a lot of interesting feedback and places to look. I'll report back with what I found, and hopefully there's enough here for the next guy to troubleshoot a similar issue.
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