Ardent Moving To China 2024
slonezp reply :
Ardent Outdoors Next year we'll be moving away from being made in the USA. By the first of the year all of the reels, rods, and combos we produce will be from China. The only items that will continue to be made in the USA will be the Reel Care products, and the Smart Cull.
So much for this
Quote
Located in St. Louis, Missouri, Ardent is proud to be an American owned and operated company. http://www.ardentreels.com/default.asp?File=company
slonezp reply :
Still looks pretty wit a Hawgtech attached
mjseverson24 reply :
good for them, it is almost impossible to compete with foreign labor costs here domestically, I hope they are able to put out a product that will be competitive in the future...( i do like the flipping reels though)
Mitch
BassinLou reply :
It may be good for them, but the quality of materials for their components might change. I have learned and experienced that although dealing with China may be cheaper, their quality of materials are not. I wish Ardent luck.
Grantman83 reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 12:01 AM, BassinLou said:It may be good for them, but the quality of materials for their components might change. I have learned and experienced that although dealing with China may be cheaper, their quality of materials are not. I wish Ardent luck.
Problem is Ardent had problems with both material, components and quality while in America. It's sad when something that used to be a badge if honor has now become (at least in the reel industry) something to worry about. It's hard for a company to start out with the shadow of daiwa, shimano and Abu over their heads.
Rod wise there are plenty of good options for American made but the reels just can't seem to get it right
bigbill reply :
When I worked for Otis Elevator World Headquarters Engineering we developed and tested other designs from all are engineering groups from around the world here in the USA. Then it was send to other countries for manufacturing. We have manufacturing in many countries even China. It's survival of the smartest. I never seen a company life test there products like this before they go out to serve the public.
Sometimes I got to have fun like working on Disney's tower of terror project.
I've had a lifetime of fun building things from rebuilding machines, to building 200,000lb lathes with 144" chucks, to 155mm howitzers for the US army, to machines that manufactured parts for the m1 Abrams chrysler tank, to elevators that move millions of people. Boy it was a fun life. I built machines that we're accurate to the millionths.
There isn't one thing you don't touch everyday that I had something to do with. I made machines to machine disc brakes for every car manufacturer in the world even sent lathes to China.
Too bad our free enterprise system is our downfall.
The only thing made in America is our children. Thank God no country can copy that yet.
Life went by so fast.
Fishwhittler reply :
I disagree that it's impossible for a US-based reel company to compete. Ardent couldn't make it work, but I think they went about it wrong. Shimano reels don't have as many features as other similarly-priced modern reels, yet they're immensely popular because they're mostly rock-solid reels. Ardent should have gone for solid rather than gimmicks—their drag-tracking technology is by and large a gimmick—and focused on building the highest quality reels for the money. I'd be very willing to pay $100 - $150 for a Made-in-USA, metal-frame low-profile baitcaster with a good braking system, smooth drag, and three or four good-quality bearings.
Grantman83 reply :
I agree...ardent first focused on a supposed long casting system (gimmick) and then went to drag tracking tech (gimmick) instead of getting a solid base product. Their flipping reels are abit gimmicky but I had the f-700 and it was great at what it did except for the weight.
That being said, it was broken right out of the box and had to be sent back. It was returned not fully fixed and without the original box.
If they had simply focused on solid reels, I think they could have succeeded with the pro America design.
slonezp reply :
I'll give them this. Customer service beyond great. The first run flip n pitch reels were of better quality, than the later ones. If they can continue the good CS, then they have a shot at competing with the best of them.
bigbill reply :
I been buying up the US reel supercasters in baitcasters and spinning reels. Because the company is for sale plus the product makes sense to me. I collect different fishing stuff too. I'm going after some made in the USA ardents too. I kind of have my own fishing museum from early steel fishing rods, collapsible steel fly rods to bamboo rods to the early 60' 70's stuff.
Lucky Craft Man reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 12:24 AM, bigbill said:When I worked for Otis Elevator World Headquarters Engineering we developed and tested other designs from all are engineering groups from around the world here in the USA. Then it was send to other countries for manufacturing. We have manufacturing in many countries even China. It's survival of the smartest. I never seen a company life test there products like this before they go out to serve the public.
Sometimes I got to have fun like working on Disney's tower of terror project.
I've had a lifetime of fun building things from rebuilding machines, to building 200,000lb lathes with 144" chucks, to 155mm howitzers for the US army, to machines that manufactured parts for the m1 Abrams chrysler tank, to elevators that move millions of people. Boy it was a fun life. I built machines that we're accurate to the millionths.
There isn't one thing you don't touch everyday that I had something to do with. I made machines to machine disc brakes for every car manufacturer in the world even sent lathes to China.
Too bad our free enterprise system is our downfall.
The only thing made in America is our children. Thank God no country can copy that yet.
Life went by so fast.
It sounds like you may need to come out of retirement and work for Ardent.
Fishwhittler reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 2:07 AM, bigbill said:I been buying up the US reel supercasters in baitcasters and spinning reels. Because the company is for sale plus the product makes sense to me. I collect different fishing stuff too. I'm going after some made in the USA ardents too. I kind of have my own fishing museum from early steel fishing rods, collapsible steel fly rods to bamboo rods to the early 60' 70's stuff.
Just an FYI, US Reels aren't made in the US. US Reel shipped production overseas years ago for the same reason as Ardent.
bigbill reply :
I even went to dabble in gun smithing too lately. Failure is no an option. I was in charge of the test lab floor and designed and fabricated stuff on my own with nothing n paper to go by. I cut down the design time by freeing up the engineers to do there r&d work while I handled the test part of it. This was way easier than building 200,000lb machines and picking up 400lb parts by myself. We have lot that fly by the seat of your pants engineering. There so scared and held back by there own fear of failure in front of there peers. I could careless. They were so jealous of me the trained me on the CAD system but wouldn't let me use it. As a kid I made toys out of shirt cardboard tape and glue. I made a snowblower from an erector set. When they wouldn't let me design on the CAD system I went back to my roots as a kid and drew up my parts on paper and cut them out so they interfaced and fitted into each other. Time wise I kicked there butts anyway. We have lost that get out of my way designing. When they spoke about a design or an idea I had flash cards going on in my mind. I had the design down by the time I got to the lab. They feared me rather than use me to my full potential. I never peaked.
Right now with all my experiences in welding, fabrication, machining and hydraulics I'm bulding a front end loader and backhoe for my international harvester 154 tractor. After being sick this year I will finish it in the spring. My oldest son has two degrees in engineering and I been educating him with the hands on. My youngest son too. I'm teaching them you can do anything in life that you put your mind too. Success is in your hands just stay motivated and see it though.
I'm a high school dropout who never gave up. I was smart but quit school to make money so we could eat. I got my GED without studying. I was college material but we had no money to send me. Making those little card board toys as a kid made my mind develop. I was aways into designing things and making them. I do regret not going to school but the desire for success comes from within. Never say it can't be done I remember hearing those words so many times when I have it already halfway done in my shop. I would laugh every time someone told me I couldn't do it.
What has America become? I lost so many good paying jobs to cheaper imports mainly because the American companies refuse to change there ways to compete. I worked only three months per year in '83, '84 & '85. I made only 10k per year with three kids to look at me to support them. They were little but all ate like me. This made the fire rage inside me when I got job at Otis and became the group leader in the lab. The change was now in my control. After them sending me to all the American welding society courses to learn everything about fabrication it was my turn to give something back. I speeded the build process up for testing the new designs. I could make big changes starting on Friday night's working the weekends so they could test on day mornings. To be number 1 in the world you have to work hard to stay creative and remain number 1. It was up to me to get back at all the imports that got me laid off in the past. This unseen war started in '83 during or first recession it should of been a wake up call for everyone. I could see what was happening but it fell on deaf ears. At Otis I told my boss to handle the inside politics and let me do the work. It worked.
It's a tough world out there to compete in when most people don't want to work. There is no carrot held out in front of them. There's no drive to win.
They sit back and say, accept this is all I'll ever be and all I'll ever have. There's no motivation or drive to become better at something. My Dad always said to be the best you can be at something, give it your all and it will pay off.
God bless, bigbill
bigbill reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 2:36 AM, Fishwhittler said:Just an FYI, US Reels aren't made in the US. US Reel shipped production overseas years ago for the same reason as Ardent.
Yes I know but it's still designed here. I worked for one of the top ten successful companies in the world and you need to take risks and stay motivated to compete. Remember most of the new ideas in technology came from the USA.
I built 25 Inc machines that load and unload themselves thru robotics, there all connected by computerized cars on train track. There isn't a human on the machine floor. This is what I mean by making changes and upgrading your out put numbers in production. The company decades ago was caterpillar that's why there on top today.
The old saying is you snooze you lose. Bill
Now with all my life's experiences and knowledge why can't I land that new state record that I have had my hook in so many times now. I'm looking for your guru knowledge for doing that. For I'm into bass so bad as I am into building things. I just bought all new equipment and I'm waiting for spring. I'm going to practice as soon as the ice is off testing and adjusting every lure so it runs perfect. I have better quality tuned rods for a harder hook set. I'm using supercast reels which allows me to run heavier line so I can still cast farther from shore.
Now is my time the moon, the planet's will be all in my favor. I can feel the force. "Luke I'm not your father"(star wars)sorry. I'm going to fish as hard as my body will allow I "GOTS" to do this soon.
Jaheff reply :
When Penn (Pure Fishing), Moved their sub $100 reels to China, the Metal was actually a better quality.Ask a someone who workes on these old reels how many
Penn 500 gear shafts got wobbled out at the handle before and after the change to China.
tomustang reply :
From what I've seen in american manufacturing/assembly in the last decade, this looks like a good thing.
Texas bassman reply :
Companies send manufacturing jobs to china to keep production costs low. If it costs $50 In the usa to make a $150 reel but $20 with the same quality materials in china what company wouldn't do it. Its not about the engineering or better quality. That always stays where the company starts. Its about $$$ the purpose of a business is to make $$$. It does suck to lose American jobs but at the same time you have to find ways to make the product affordable and profitable. If it saves money in production then more money can be spent on engineering. In the end it should leave the consumers with a better more affordable quality.
tritondriver reply :
as an American company i gave them a shot (12 reels) and I do wish them well, but I have a box full of their reels that I used once and took them off my rods. so to me I don't care where they are made wouldn't by another one..
Trey Harpel reply :
Good maybe then they can make a decent reel now..
Cause good lord they are CRAP compared to the markets other reels in their respective price range.
Sam reply :
Labor - China
Materials - USA
Design and Engineering - USA
Product Research - USA
Sales - USA
Customer Service - Around the globe
With all of the government regulations, the ACLU, quotas, lawyers, unions and taxes on wonder our manufacturers are sending materials to other countries to have them made into products to be sent back to the USA for sale.
Been going on for over 30-years and will continue.
Check out your jeans. They are no longer made in the USA.
When I become emperor I will change all this.
DogBone_384 reply :
Good luck? What about the AMERICAN jobs, and families attached to them, that are going to be lost in the process? I guess yours isn't hanging in the balance, is it?On 12/25/2013 at 12:01 AM, BassinLou said:It may be good for them, but the quality of materials for their components might change. I have learned and experienced that although dealing with China may be cheaper, their quality of materials are not. I wish Ardent luck.
Give Ardent's executives a call after these manufacturing jobs are gone and how they're doing...
SirSnookalot reply :
Manufacturing is moved offshore for 2 reasons, less labor costs and the U.S. tax code, At issue is the U.S. tax code's treatment of profits earned by foreign subsidiaries of American corporations. Profits earned in the United States are subject to the 35% corporate tax. But multinational corporations can defer paying U.S. taxes on their overseas profits until they return them to the USA — transfers that often don't happen for years. General Electric, for example, has $62 billion in "undistributed earnings" parked offshore, according to recent Securities and Exchange Commission filings. Drug giant Pfizer boasts $60 billion. ExxonMobil has $56 billion.
I've read reports that 1 out of 4 US corporations pay zero income tax, if true where would you manufacture your products to maximize profits. Business is about making money, not employing people, every self checkout at Home Depot and Walmart or bank atm machines reduces employment.
Materials can be shipped any where in the world at a relatively low cost, don't think that has much to do with a reason to move an entire operation.
John G reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 4:53 PM, SirSnookalot said:Business is about making money, not employing people,
If more people realized this we would be much better off as a country. Sadly, most people think that an entrepreneur made an investment and started their own business just to provide the masses with a job, health insurance and retirement.
deaknh03 reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 5:20 AM, BASSIN28 said:Companies send manufacturing jobs to china to keep production costs low. If it costs $50 In the usa to make a $150 reel but $20 with the same quality materials in china what company wouldn't do it. Its not about the engineering or better quality. That always stays where the company starts. Its about $$$ the purpose of a business is to make $$$. It does suck to lose American jobs but at the same time you have to find ways to make the product affordable and profitable. If it saves money in production then more money can be spent on engineering. In the end it should leave the consumers with a better more affordable quality.
Companies dont move overseas to make a better product or to save money on labor to sink into engineering. They move for profit. Profit for execs and profit for shareholders.
slonezp reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 11:12 PM, deaknh03 said:Companies dont move overseas to make a better product or to save money on labor to sink into engineering. They move for profit. Profit for execs and profit for shareholders.
and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The Walmart buying attitude Americans have adopted is the issue. The same people who think they deserve $15 an hour to flip burgers. I have no problem paying more for a quality American made product. As I said earlier, the quality of their first run F500, which is the only style of reel I own from Ardent, and I own 2, was much better than the newer runs.
deaknh03 reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 11:56 PM, slonezp said:and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The Walmart buying attitude Americans have adopted is the issue. The same people who think they deserve $15 an hour to flip burgers. I have no problem paying more for a quality American made product. As I said earlier, the quality of their first run F500, which is the only style of reel I own from Ardent, and I own 2, was much better than the newer runs.
I completely agree, the consumer drives the market. I was just pointing out that they dont move to make a better product and sink more money into R&D or engineering, they move for profits.
SirSnookalot reply :
It isn't just Walmart, it's every retailer buying an American product that's made elsewhere, I'd put the onus on American manufactures. I don't believe the consumer is the driving force, but the recipient of capitalism greed, not much different than service businesses using third world workers for tech support.
John G reply :
On 12/26/2013 at 12:28 AM, SirSnookalot said:It isn't just Walmart, it's every retailer buying an American product that's made elsewhere, I'd put the onus on American manufactures. I don't believe the consumer is the driving force, but the recipient of capitalism greed, not much different than service businesses using third world workers for tech support.
America is a very expensive place to do business in. I put the onus on the people in charge right now that are doing everything they can do to make businesses not want to do business here.
deaknh03 reply :
On 12/26/2013 at 12:28 AM, SirSnookalot said:It isn't just Walmart, it's every retailer buying an American product that's made elsewhere, I'd put the onus on American manufactures. I don't believe the consumer is the driving force, but the recipient of capitalism greed, not much different than service businesses using third world workers for tech support.
consumers have the final say. If they dont buy it, the companies and/or manufacturers have to conform. Consumers are careless and "cheap" when it comes to most things, and corporations feed into that.
smalljaw67 reply :
Labor cost, pure and simple. We pay for our own heath insurance, the Chinese don't, we live where we want and pay bills, Chinese workers are stuck in housing units, it is only those that begin to get real money that get out of that. The average wage in China is approximately $12.00 per month for the working class, you can't afford to live here on that but here is the thing, companies are slowly coming back because the pollution is so out of control there, cost for clean water is 15 times as much as it is here. Also, since labor is so cheap other countries have been using Chinese labor and as a result the workers are now demanding higher wages. With the cost of what corporations pay to the government and the workers in exchange to use their labor, a small increase of only $2.00 dollars a day in wages make it too costly do continue manufacturing. Most corporations pay the Chinese government a fee to use the slave labor, instead of paying U.S. taxes they pay a percentage to China so they can get someone to make their product for $1.61 per month (Apple), but the rising cost of fuel and basics like clean water are making it very hard to stay in China and and increase in wages will result in a lot of manufacturing coming back. That said, Ardent had outdated designs and engineering, that's all, the reason Daiwa and Shimano have flagship models that are super expensive is because of the Japanese labor which is as costly as our own, but a lot of companies make a good product in China because they use materials from the U.S. and the only real bad you see you see is when companies use Chinese materials, their steel is far weaker and the plastics aren't anywhere near the quality of what comes out of the U.S., but labor is the driving force.
slonezp reply :
On 12/26/2013 at 2:47 AM, smalljaw67 said:Labor cost, pure and simple. We pay for our own heath insurance, the Chinese don't, we live where we want and pay bills, Chinese workers are stuck in housing units, it is only those that begin to get real money that get out of that. The average wage in China is approximately $12.00 per month for the working class, you can't afford to live here on that but here is the thing, companies are slowly coming back because the pollution is so out of control there, cost for clean water is 15 times as much as it is here. Also, since labor is so cheap other countries have been using Chinese labor and as a result the workers are now demanding higher wages. With the cost of what corporations pay to the government and the workers in exchange to use their labor, a small increase of only $2.00 dollars a day in wages make it too costly do continue manufacturing. Most corporations pay the Chinese government a fee to use the slave labor, instead of paying U.S. taxes they pay a percentage to China so they can get someone to make their product for $1.61 per month (Apple), but the rising cost of fuel and basics like clean water are making it very hard to stay in China and and increase in wages will result in a lot of manufacturing coming back. That said, Ardent had outdated designs and engineering, that's all, the reason Daiwa and Shimano have flagship models that are super expensive is because of the Japanese labor which is as costly as our own, but a lot of companies make a good product in China because they use materials from the U.S. and the only real bad you see you see is when companies use Chinese materials, their steel is far weaker and the plastics aren't anywhere near the quality of what comes out of the U.S., but labor is the driving force.
If the American working class could keep more of their earnings to spend on what we choose, I believe things could change for the beter in our economy. People could afford to pay a little more for an American made product and American jobs could be created. Too many people have their hands in the till
SirSnookalot reply :
On 12/26/2013 at 6:41 AM, slonezp said:If the American working class could keep more of their earnings to spend on what we choose, I believe things could change for the beter in our economy. People could afford to pay a little more for an American made product and American jobs could be created. Too many people have their hands in the till
As it stands federal, state, county and municipalities don't have enough revenue. Even if Americans had more disposable income, American business will still operate as they are doing now. Between loopholes, tax havens, and promotion of offshore investments that have been going on for many years, the system is rigged for the wealthy and against the middle class, it's always been that way and always will be. Middle class incomes have been flat lining for decades while corporate and executive incomes have been soaring.
roadwarrior reply :
We're getting pretty close to the line gentlemen. I realize politics is big part of this type of discussion,
but we have a long standing policy that everyone is aware of. So, I think we are just about to the end
of this thread.
-Kent
frogflogger reply :
I've fished an ardent 1000s since they came out - guided or fished 250 days a year with it for two years - still have it - works good, casts good - sorry they're moving
Avaitor63 reply :
I just got the Ardent Edge Pro. Has anyone heard anything about this reel.Thanks
Tywithay reply :
As a person that works for a major manufacturing company, it's not just cost sending our jobs overseas. There's a real lack of skilled labor. Manufacturing is not a sexy job. If you hire entry-level skills, you get entry-level work. This drives up costs for rework, overtime, etc. The people that have talent want to be paid. There's a fine line between overpaying and under skilled. A lot of the Asian countries have an influx of skilled workers that will work for far less than a comparable American.
wrat reply :
I am sorry about this I really would have liked to see ardent keep "made in usa" as is for me "made in china" = NO SALE..
as an aside I still have BPS gear that has "made in usa" on the package
HoosierHawgs reply :
This may be a good thing. They're Apex series of reels are made in China and are head and shoulders above their American made models.
Alonerankin2 reply :
The Zombie thread... It's undead!
FloridaFishinFool reply :
On 12/25/2013 at 2:36 AM, Fishwhittler said:Just an FYI, US Reels aren't made in the US. US Reel shipped production overseas years ago for the same reason as Ardent.
I was going to say the same thing. Fred Kemp who started U.S. Reel did not take too long before sending his production to China. And I would suspect this might be why Ray Scott severed ties with the company he helped to develop their patented large diameter spools on their spinning reels to be used on Ray Scott's Kistler made rod line. Something certainly soured that relationship real fast. Ray Scott is not even mentioned on the U.S. Reel website any longer and has been wiped out of the company's history from their perspective anyways. You can still read about it on Ray Scott's website where he is not trying to hide it.
And it was because of Ray Scott's recommendation I even bought two of the U.S. Reel's top of their line SuperCasters, but after using them only one time I sold them as fast as I could get rid of them. Not a quality product. Choosing to name the company U.S. Reel and then turn around and make them in China was kind of, well, irritating to say the least.
I see now that Bass Pro is selling and marketing large diameter spools based on Fred Kemp's patented idea on some of their spinning reels too. And no telling who else is doing it, so I have to wonder how much income Fred Kemp is raking in on just this one patented idea alone that he can keep as his property to profit from even if he sells the U.S. Reel company. And I would bet if he does sell U.S. Reel that it will become another Chinese owned company. Who else would buy it? Pure Fishing maybe? Bass Pro? This one will be interesting to follow.
HoosierHawgs reply :
So that's the reel that Jimmy Houston used to use on his show! I couldn't figure it out because they didn't look like any reel on the market today... He's since moved on to Shimano... I don't see anyone buying US reel then, they must be years behind the rest of the fishing industry... They're casting reels like like something that was made 20-30 years ago..
Blues19 reply :
I met the President of Ardent at the Spring Classic at the St. Charles (St. Louis) Bass Pro, when their first reel came out. I heard at least 5-6 people in half an hour tell him they would buy the reel just cause it was American made. And sure enough they did buy it. I was young and couldnt afford the $250 price. SO with the reel trade in, he said he would give me $40 to help buy the reel, in exchange for an email telling him how i liked it after I used it. He said he was sure I would be a customer for life if I tried it. The other Bass Pro guys at the reel counter were raving over the casting ability of the reel so I figured, with such a good deal, I would give that reel a go. At the end of they day the only other reel i was interested in was the Curado and SHimano didnt participate in the reel exchange so i decided to give Ardent a try. First outing I found out the drag was stripped. Sent it to them, got it back and its been a pleasure to use since. Thats been like 7years ago. Something like that. Its been great. Love the profile and especially the knobs on the handle. I have not since purchased another reel from them though. Partly cause the next reel I got was when I was on my college fishing club and we were sponsered by Daiwa. Sad to see them moving from MO to China. Oh well.
pbizzle reply :
Guys were talking about their old heavy models that looked like 3rd grade pencil sharpeners right and not their new Apex series, right?
Tywithay reply :
The Apex reels are the Chinese reels. The old ugly Edge series were the last of the USA made Ardents.On 1/12/2015 at 1:24 PM, pbizzle said:Guys were talking about their old heavy models that looked like 3rd grade pencil sharpeners right and not their new Apex series, right?
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