Not For The Weak Of Mind 2024
FIN-S-R reply :
Over the past few years I have been emersing myself in researching the Green/Brown fish specifically in relation to how to become a more productive angler. In order to do so I have come to the conclusion that fish are incapable of logical thought processes, and can only react, based on conditioning and instinct. I cannot manipulate a fishes instinct, only can I attempt to accomodate that instinct on a reaction level. Subesquently all an angler can do is understand the appropriate level of reaction a fish will respond to, or to be even more specific...the level of stimulation a fish needs to be provoked into striking. As part of a larger project I am working on i have built what i call the reaction gradation. Its a group of techniques and lures I commonly use, ranked according to the level of stimulation (Visual/Vibration/Sound) they expell when fished in a generic manner, this is to say I am not considering all the possible ways a spinner bait can be fished ie, like a jig/ like a worm/ like a spoon, but just the typical rollin it in slow or fast, deep or shallow, pausing or burning, and the same for all lures/techniques in the aformentioned table "Reaction Gradation". I would like to have some input from those posting here as to the order in which i have these techniques arranged..is it generally correct? is it generally incorrect? does one need to be in a different rank? About 60% of this project is based on documented bio. research and R&D materials, so 40% of it is my observation and collection of observation from guys who i have seen to exhibit high levels of angling skill. This Reaction Table is just 1 piece, but I feel like the most important piece in order to make it usable for actual FISHIN' help. The Guts to the table are included below...I would really appreciate your thoughts.
Score Lure/Technique
14 Vibration Bait
13 Horny Toad/ Buzz Bait
12 Spinner Bait
11 Mid-Crank/ ChatterBait/ SwimJig
10 Deep Crank/ BIG SpinnerBait
09 Hard Jerk/ Popper/ Walkin Stick Bait
08 DEEP Hard Jerk
07 SwimBait
06 Carolina Rig
05 Jig-n-Trailer
04 Texas Rig Unpegged w/ Bead (Soft Plastics)
03 Split Shot w/o bead
02 Jig Worm (Shakey Head/ Spot Remover)
01 Drop Shot
0.05 Weightless Soft Plastics
If you like I can post some of the collected data and Pieces of the index I am working on (Im sure your all titlated)
guest reply :
I admire your intellegence and zeal. I'm sorry that I can't be of much help to you with your project. You see, If I feel like fishing I'll fish.
If the fish feel like bitin' they'll bite.
That's about as deep as I get on the subject.
FIN-S-R reply :
i appreciate your candour...any other takers!?!?!
RoLo reply :
I really can't comment on your study without seeing the nuts and bolts.
What is your baseline for "optimal" stimulation. More isn't necessarily better.
I'd need to know how you quantified the reaction of a fish to various stimuli.
I'd certainly have to know how you weighted and scaled the data, for both vision and hearing.
Tweaking any one of your criteria or parameters could significantly rearrange the ranking.
Roger
K_Mac reply :
If I understand correctly, you are saying that if you know the reaction level required to get a response at any given time, you can then select a lure with that score. I think the idea has merit. Specific fishing conditions, (time of year, water temp. and clarity, etc.) according to conventional wisdom, call for lures that would fall within a fairly tight range on your index. You could then say under these conditions a lure within this range, 10-14 for example, would be a good place to start. As RoLo said, quantifying the stimulus of any lure, as well as determining the number needed to produce a strike is the real challenge.
I like the idea, and think you could build a fishing "system" on it. Keep at it and I'll look for your book when it hits the presses. Maybe you could cut a deal with Glenn to market it here?
FIN-S-R reply :
My baseline for Optimal Stimulation is the technique with the highest cumulative score based on sight, sound, and vibration characteristics. For ex. the vibration bait stimulates based on vibration (tight wiggle), sight (fast moving/ fast falling), and sound (rattle chambers). The vibration bait was the highest scoring lure/technique relative to the group of 20 or so that I looked at (some of them have been phased out or combined because they were near duplicates). The vibration bait scored 20/19/20 for vibration/sight/sound. Having said all of that, I realize my opinion on some of this info may be biased by my fishing preferences and the distance between common sense and attempted science is sometimes great. So give me your opinoin, I want to hear opinions and anacdotal evidence in order to unbias myself and potentially promt a new point of view on some of this stuff.
ScroGG ToGG reply :
Im not sure exactly what your calling a "vibration bait" :-/
FIN-S-R reply :
K_Mac: Dont be giving away my secret system just yet!!! but yeah, I am working to quantify response to a certain collection of variables ie. temp/light penetration/light levels/length of day blah blah blah. And we as fisherpersons know all of this directly or indirectly relates to what will catch bass...not a particular singular hawg of a bass, but bass in general. So like you said you can figure out the place to start in the most efficient manner. Im also finding the data is sorting unintentionally into size classes (>16" class and < 20" class) related to certain types of areas at certain times off the year. Read about how Mike Mclelland won the sooner run this year. I doubt if he really understood the pattern he was running, but Im finding that type of situation in post spawn bass relates to bigger fish on most of my data collection water bodies here in the sooner state.
FIN-S-R reply :
A vibration bait:
Yo-Zuri Vibe
L.C. LVR
Rattle Trap
earthworm77 reply :
Fin-S, as a writer, guide, lure manufacturer and overall afficionado for bass fishing I can tell you one thing that will likely put your theory on this stimulation table down the drain.....The only set rule in bass fishing is that there are no set rules. That being said, I think it is highly unlikely that anyone can narrow down the exact bait a fish wants at any given moment. Granted just because a fish struck a jig, does that mean that was the optimum option? Would that same fish have struck another bait more readily? I just don't think any test and measure this accurately.
I kind of think you are putting way too much consideration into this and the payoff will never be exacting. It might be more prudent to match the lure choice based on the seasonal conditions and not to the bass as an individual creature. If you try to narrow it down too far, you'll find that your margin for error is much greater.
Sam reply :
Have you seen the Bass Matrix?
That tries to tie together the weather conditions, water temperature and forage to offer some suggested baits.
As for your theory, it seems to have merit except, in my humble opinion, you are dealing with a wild animal that has strong instincts and a mind of its own. Something like a wife. Are you married?
But I digress. I think your theory needs to be sharpened for various areas of the country since there are so many variables that I would think it almost impossible to calculate, even with one of those 5 billion a second computers at LSU.
But give it a whack and see what happens.
Also, please use paragraphs as it is difficult to read one large paragraph with words that have more than two sylables.
FIN-S-R reply :
Earthworm77... as an experienced researcher I realize the overall implications a study like this carries with it. First of all I do not intend on predicting what lure to throw on a certain day for a certain fish. What I do plan to do is make my starting place more distinct when practicing for a tourny, taking my son or wife or daughter or anyone else fishing, or just goin' out myself to wet a line, making the first thing I pick up to throw have the highest probability of hooking up. A STARTING PLACE. OK having said that, Ill say this about the seasonal stuff you mentioned...your exactly right. If you dont match up the reaction level with the right place and the appropriate color scheme your not going to see optimal results. So now I have to let the cat out of the bag. The project I am working on correlates general fish position based on time of year...relating to h2o temps and length of day. There is a shallow and deep component to each of 12 different distinct phases of bass movement patterns. There is a RANGE of areas...lake features....to be considered for each of these phases. Next you want t look at less static environmental features like cloud cover/precip/inflow/current/water clarity and so on and so on...all of the things have direct implications on the behavior of a fish...different fish act different to the same changes, and some dont react at all...there are no set in stone rules, only trends. I am attempting to quantify an average and then formulate a strategy on how to most effectively work both sides of that average. i had quite a few folks react to this in the way you did, so im not too surprised to encounter some skepticism, but I have found this to be an un-broken rule in the natural world...There is a trend towards staying alive and reproducing, it can be quantified and it does have exceptions, but there is a trend that can be quantified.
FIN-S-R reply :
SAM:
Ive seen a few matricies and they tend to go in a different direction than what Im looking toward. You are correct about the variable quantification being tough, but i think it can be done by expanding and tightening your ranges for each variable such that the limits are defined by amount of influence rather than by say for example exact barometric pressure readings. As to the different parts of the country..Ive considered that and since there are documented differences in temp and precip and wind direction and whatever else you can think of, I believe what I come up with for oklahoma can be adjusted by considering lat/long differences and environmental variable average differences as well as the correlation of length of day to spawn (considering h2o conditions are right).
senile1 reply :
FIN-S-R,
If you have the time to collect the empirical data needed for such an in-depth study, more power to you. You may discover something that will help you key on more fish. It can't hurt as long as you stay flexible and understand you're tracking trends and generalities, not behaviors that are etched in stone. From your last post, it appears you already know this.
For me, I've found that when I analyze the behavior of bass too much, my success will often decrease. Then, I'll settle down and go back to the basics, and, "Voila," I"m catching fish again. But that's me.
FIN-S-R reply :
senile1: Your exactly right about the over analyzation thing I do it all the time. i just figure if..no no...when I can generally quantify what it is Im aiming at, ill be more proficient. What im trying to put on paper is the same thing that is in the mind of thousands of good and great anglers out there. but not all of it resides in 1 head at 1 time and most of em' dont even know they are using an analytic thought process to catch fish. I want to collect it and see how it works together. It does take alot of time to collect this info, but im lucky to live between two totally different lakes and collect data from both so as not to bias my observations to 1 type of water, but im sure there is stuff Im missing...this is just the first step in a lifelong addiction though, and one of these days im might actually figure out how to catch em'
earthworm77 reply :
Fin, I hear what you are saying. The variables are almost endless as once you break things into catagories such as season, water temp, water level, clarity, pH etc....along come literally hundreds of smaller sub catagories to consider.
FIN-S-R reply :
Right, but the amount of influence each of the sub categories has is variable and becomes less influential the more you break it down Thats why i wrote earlier that quantifying variables in relation to the amount of influence each has is the only way to ever wrap your head around this. For instance water clarity...do i use 3 categories or 9 or 12. Well what are the differences in fishing clear and gin clear...not much, or fishing dark tannic or muddy...not much, so although there are differences, its a balance of lumping and splitting. I started out with around 500 variables to consider...just brainstoriming up everything I could think of. Then I left it alone for a couple of months and came back to it. I did a lot of lumping, and in some cases Ive done some splitting. I now have my variable set down to a manageable 100 or so, and plan to do some more refining based on peer reviewed scientific stuff as well and my own observations. So it seems incermountable at first, but it really is manageable. Once i get the variables managed down a little further...if it goes that way, Ill start re-plugging them into my system and see if the suggestions make sense. This is a long term deal and is evolving.
Chris reply :
This would depend on how the lure was used. If you take a worm for example and cast it out and work the bottom with it you would not have a reaction strike from a bass but more of a feeding response. You take the same lure and pitch it into cover and force the fish to react to it or strike without thought. Same with a jig you can cast the jig and work bottom cover with it and get more of a feeding response or pitch it into cover a force the fish to react and strike the lure without thought. A spinnerbait you can do the same thing cast and reel it to get a feeding response or strike out of curiosity or you can throw the lure into its face and force the fish to bite it or react to it. A change in direction speed or sound can force a fish to strike. A crankbait the same thing you can cast and reel it past the fish for a feeding response or you can deflect the lure off of something to force the fish to react to it. You can also force feed the fish and make them bite by how you cast the bait in shallow water. Most of the lures you have listed depending on how the lure was used would depend on how the bass responded to them. Also the level of activity can change by the presence of a lure or how it was used. A neutral bass can become excited if you gear your presentation to the instinct of the bass. A bass that is in a negative mood can change their mood with the presence of bait or change in environment like wind. Bass that are positioned in ambush areas can be excited by a lure that acts real or acts like it is injured. The way a lure is presented does change how the lure is reacted to it and you can force a bass to feed even if it don't want to. On the low end of your chart you have weightless soft plastics on the bottom. You take a Mr. Wiggleys shad imitation and swim the bait by quivering the rod as you pull it and then spook it or let it drop and the reaction you get from a bass changes. The same with a Cream worm, or floating worm if fished in the same way or wacky rigged or any soft jerkbait. If I fish a spinnerbait with two blades on it and I fish it by jerking it and shaking it while reeling it I produce more sound and an erratic presentation that can force a fish to react. Same with a jerkbait that you just cast and swim compared to jerking the bait and making it dance. I catch many fish early in the year and in the winter burning a rattletrap or crankbait in cold water. So your dealing with fish that even if you think you got them pegged you still can catch them doing things that break the rules. I have also caught a bunch of fish using topwater in the middle of winter.
fishingJ reply :
There is no way of us telling whether a fish has a conscience or thought process. There are things that make me believe they do that people just say are conditioning, but there's no way to really tell.
bassnleo reply :
Interesting.....
How would you figure in different bodies of water across the globe. In my experience, a Northern bass is much different than a Southern bass. Not so much the fish but how active it is given season and water temps. I hear soo many Southern anglers speak of how their bass get lock jaw under a cold front or how inactive they are until water temps get above say like 55 degrees.
Northern bass will bite even when the water is in the 40's or 30's on some occasions.
OR, smallmouth vs. largemouth vs. spots.
It seems to me that you would have waaayyy to many variables to have a common baseline, but your thoughts are interesting.
Randall reply :
After reading this post a few times to make sure I understood it before I replied I will say the rankings have very little to do with a bait catching fish. The enviroment of a fish has way too many varibles that allow some baits to work and others not to work on any given day and set of conditions. You can't take just the level of sound, vibration, etc to even get a good starting point. The best way to figure out how to catch fish has always been the same. Spend time on the water suceeding and failing with different lures under as many different conditions as you can so that when you encounter near the same conditions again you will have a better idea of where to start depending on your strengths and experiences.
FatBoy reply :
FIN-S-R, I'm an engineer and I really like any kind of quantitative analysis like this. So I hate to rain on your parade, but there are just too many variables, with too much error in each one, for this to work. I think you're better off just going with the rules of thumb that we all use to pick a starting lure. There are just too many experienced anglers out there who have already done the "experiments." I don't think your analysis can beat decades of collective experience from thousands of fishermen.
But, like someone else said, if you've got the time to work on it, go for it...
Mattlures reply :
Fin S , I am not totaly sure I understand your list but it seems like you listed them by how many ways a bait can trigger a strtike. I like everybody else agree with the too many varaibles. I do have an interesting bit of info for you though.
It has been my experiance that the order of your list was made for poor visability. As far as fish catching abilities, out here in clear water CA the baits with the highest scores are the worst. And the baits with the lowest scores are the best. Now fish the same baits at night or in a dirty water lake and they are reversed. Now Of course these only apply to smaller average sized fish. Big fish act diferently. Conditions determin how and when to use a bait. Also on any given day there are many diferent succesful patterns hapening at the same time. Just because your wacking them on spook doesnt mean you wouldnt have caught more dropshotting.
George Welcome reply :
Wphewwwww!
Chris reply :
You are also dealing with a group of individuals. What is good for one bass isn't good for another. Different fish react differently and it takes different things to get those fish to respond to the bait. This goes well beyond a defined pattern. You can have a group of fish relating to cover or structure but it will take different presentations to get them to bite within the same school. You might end up catching fish on a verity of different lures worked in different ways to maximize the amount of fish caught in a small area like a brush pile. Fishing pressure also throws a wrench into the works because conditions changed and forced the bass to reposition and change their feeding habits to survive. Lets say you have a brush pile and you have been catching the fish on a dropshot rig. The next thing you know the bite stops. Those fish that you where catching stopped relating to the bottom because of fishing pressure and have relocated to suspend above the brush pile. The next guy stops to fish the same brush pile and hammers them on a jerkbait or crankbait. I do understand that it would be nice to know what list of lures would work under a set of conditions. You have a problem what one fishermen would define as clear water to another fishermen is stained water to another fishermen they would say it was murky. They base their judgment on how clear the water is by what they fish the most. If one guy fishes mostly tap water anything that has some color to it in their eyes is stained to murky. If the guy fishes mostly mud then anything that has 3 ft visibility is clear water. If I am fishing in 3 ft visibility water and I am catching fish in 1ft of water tight to shore I would say I was fishing in clear water. I would also choose clear water lures but if I move out 5 ft I would choose lure colors for darker water. I would also choose lures that work in less visibility water over clear water lures while fishing 5ft out from the shore. Sometimes lakes get almost a stack effect where the top layer is clear then 5ft down is mud or in some cases the reverse. The top layer will be mud the bottom layer considerably clear. It would be the blind leading the blind and neither one would know the correct answer from lack of information as to what the conditions truly are. I wish that it was as simple as you take the conditions and what the fish should be doing so this select lures at this depth will work. I know for myself as an accomplished tournament fishermen there are very few rules that dictate what I will do from sun up to sun set. I go by instinct and it is close to impossible to teach that. You either got it or you don't. Then you have the mental side of fishing. The guys that say I will never win, I will never be as good, I will never learn that bait, Oh the conditions stink I will never catch anything. The fact is your right because you already beat yourself. When you plant doubt in your mind, doubt in judgment, or abilities you let the gates wide open for defeat. 90% of fishing is mental if you care to believe it or not that is up to you. :
Hale reply :
I am an engineer as well but I have no interest in bringing anything of a work nature to my fishing life so this will be short and sweet. No big words or over inflated egos, just something very simple:
14 Vibration Bait
13 Horny Toad/ Buzz Bait
12 Spinner Bait
11 Mid-Crank/ ChatterBait/ SwimJig
10 Deep Crank/ BIG SpinnerBait
09 Hard Jerk/ Popper/ Walkin Stick Bait
08 DEEP Hard Jerk
07 SwimBait
06 Carolina Rig
05 Jig-n-Trailer
04 Texas Rig Unpegged w/ Bead (Soft Plastics)
03 Split Shot w/o bead
02 Jig Worm (Shakey Head/ Spot Remover)
01 Drop Shot
0.05 Weightless Soft Plastics
Refering to you chart:
Does spinner bait rank higher becuase of its vibration? If so, is it because you based this on colorado blades, double blades, or what? A chatterbaits biggest appeal is the vibrations it gives off. But its even further down the list.
How does a carolina rig rank higher than a soft plastic when in essence 24" away from that weight is a weightless soft plastic.
We can keep going....
This list is entirely too vague even if you removed all of the variables that everyone is mentioning.
Hale reply :
Lightbulb!
So what you really trying to say is: A fish cant think like humans so they will actually strike from instinct either caused by hunger, fear, or aggression. And with the array of lures on the market we should be able to narrow down what will casue this instinct to work in our favor.
Eureka!
FIN-S-R reply :
Well Im glad to see Im getting some feedback from you guys, and I really do appreciate it...helps to better quantify certain perceptions that must be overcome, and CHRIS said it best that so much of fishing is mental, maybe not wetting a line in general is mental, but really trying to zero in on that key trigger to maximize success...thats mental.
All of you who mentioned the insurmountable pile of variables to consider are on target, except that there is a sort of rule or trend in the natural world that goes like this:
A system will be controlled by the most limiting factor. Now considering this, you can in almost every situation eliminate a large number of variables in order to deliniate the highest probability areas as well as the highest probability techniques. Ex. High water Temp combined with clear skies during mid-summer- low wind. This creates a situation whereas many areas can be elimiated as the day progresses as well as eliminating a number of variables. Now the variables that will be eliminated depend on water clarity (theres really only 3 types for an individual body of water) and water temp...well water quality in general, with keeping the presence of available forage in mind. Think about the way a bass makes a living for a moment- they HAVE to find acceptable temp to maintain an accebtable metabolism, they HAVE to find ample forage to accomodate that metabolic rate, and they HAVE to reside in an area with acceptable O2 levels. Those are the HAVE TO's. They want an ambush location, They want an escape route, and they want comfortable accomodations (bottum comp/light diffusion/short distance to food....). So in understanding this, you can exclude certain variables in certain areas at certain times of the day.
There are exceptions, and you can catch a fish on anything at any time due to random chance or perserverence, but the majority of a single type of organism will exhibit tendencies toward a common mean (average) behavior at a certain time in a certain place based on a few overwhelming variables.
The Scenario previously described is one which I ran into on a few tourneys this year. The first was a near miss, The second was a disaster, and the third was the highest weight Ive ever weighed in. The final scenario (unlike the first two) was one in which I analyzed the situation based on variables which I could exclude initially and then considering those few overwhelming variables, I was able to quickly adjust, and within 45 min I caught 3 keepers over 4lbs apiece and the other two were 2 and 3. My partner laughed at me when I pulled out my "Guide" table (it contains alot more than just reaction rankings of techniques), and it was a last resort to me (Im skeptical too). But it allowed me to focus my thought process on the variables that were affecting the system...not the numerous ones that didnt matter. Since that tourney Ive spent some time testing and tweaking, and many more hours of field testing are necessary, but its going in a good direction.
So yes, there are many variables that can be considered, but there are really only a few in a certain situation that matter...those that exhibit the most influence on the system.
In response to those that made comments about a fish being able think, Ill just say this, "Logical" thought as we know it is the confusion of instinct due to emotion. If fish could Think they would all be dead. Thats just MHO.
FIN-S-R reply :
HALE: On the spinner bait/ chatterbait deal, its based on profile..granted theres not an awful lot of difference...I look at a c-bait as if it resides somewhere btw a sp-bait and a mid-shallow crank. On the t-rig/C-rig deal, you have two components exerting stmuli a distance from each other on a c-rig creating a "zone" of action, where as all your action is more localized w/ a t-rig.
I think I detected a little sarcasm in the 2nd post, but yeah i mean we all know that, but ive been skunked and frustrated, and I want to figure somethings out...I know science (research/data analyzation methods) and have pub'd a few studies (not on fish), so Id like to see how I can do at applying my $70K worth of education toward something I actually like.
But thats just my POV, and I hope I dont come across as an ego-maniac...im just a guy who reall really likes to fish...wait no no, catch, really likes to catch
guest reply :
I'm going to jump in here again.
First I want to apologize to fin for my glib, if tongue in cheek, opening post.
I fully respect what you are doing. Unfortunately there are a couple of negatives I see associated with it.
#1 - As virtually eveyone is saying, the # of variables is overwhelming.
#2 - If you were writing you doctoral thesis, I'd say fine, but don't you think this is a massive amount of overkill just to take your daughter fishing?
Now that being said,
I will (as Keithscatch is so fond of pointing out 
) speak out of the other side of my mouth.
GO FOR IT DUDE
Allow me to attempt to be of some meager assistance to you.
This is YOUR study. You set the parameters. Yes, there are countless variables, but limit your study to the variables that you can control and make it clear that the study only applies to those situations that fall within the defined parameters.
What you are attempting is what some people would call thier "lifes work".
Take it in bite size chunks.
Make one small conclusion, follow it with a study using a limited set of different variables and draw another limited conclusion. If you continue with this. It is theoretically possible that eventually you will have covered the majority of situations that most anglers face. This process may indeed uncover enough relevant, scientifically valid evidence to influence how baits are designed, marketed, and fished.
Once again, I admire your intellegence and zeal.
To that I will add; Best of luck to you with sincere wishes for success.
Avid.
FatBoy reply :
After sleeping on this a bit I'm going to change my tune slightly. Originally I said that you are better off going with the rules of thumb "that we all know." Well, maybe we don't all know the rules of thumb, or we have different ones (and some may be better than others). If your system can essentially provide an alternative to those rules of thumb, that could be a big benefit for those of us with less experience. For example, if your system could tell me that on an overcast, summer day with clear water and water temp about 75-80, I should try dragging a big, craw-colored jig-n-pig near the tops of humps and ends of points (I have no idea if that would be correct; it's just an example) then that could be very valuable for me.
So to the extent that your system is meant to provide general rules of thumb, and not the "optimal" bait for the day, I think you might be onto something.
Good luck and keep us posted!
roadwarrior reply :
My experince suggests that if you put a lure/bait within a few inches of a bass' mouth, you have a fair chance of getting bit. The vast majority (all) of my biggest bass have been caught on what I perceive to be a "feeding" bite, even while fishing "reaction" baits.
It is my observation that the most important variables are not lures, but depth and structure/ cover. On a river, 75% of being successful involves current and its impact on the various structural features of the river. The other 25% involves the predominate natural prey: minnows or crawdads. I'm not suggesting that all soft plastics should resemble a crawdad, I don't even know what a Senko is suppose to immitate, but my point is this: When bass are more focused on bottom dwelling prey, soft plastics and jigs are very effective. Right now, during the fall, minnow type baits are more effective for me. Mostly, I think, this is because all of the fry have grown up to meal size and they are easy to catch when they school up. The fact that bass eat other fish year around is why hard baits work year around.
So, choosing "exactly" the right lure is not nearly as important as fishing the right structure, at the right depth, with the right "class" of lure. If you find the Holy Grail of lure selection through your study, you will still need to find the fish. I am in complete agreement with Rick Clunn, " Catching bass is easy, the challenge is finding them."
FIN-S-R reply :
AVID: Your words are well spoken and well recieved. Your correct in the time and effort investment...thats why although somewhat hesitantly, I went ahead posted this topic...wasnt sure as to the type of response, but the greater the response and the greater number of questions allows for a more thorough thought process and ultimately cuts time investment.
When attempting to achieve a "solution" to a "problem" i realize I formulate a hypothesis then attempt to disprove the answers I come up with to solve the "prob" in order to evaluate their validity..im starting to do some stats on my data just to see what degrees of error im getting into.
As for the taking the kids fishing goes, I never let anything get in the way of that, and I must confess...this isnt just for the kids!!
I work as a data coordinator/analyst/manager for an OIl Co. as a result of experience being a reasercher thus far. I only go to work mon-fri to finance my REAL life which is 1.GOD/2.FAMILY/3.OUTDOORS. So yeah i guess U could say this is a lifes work, but i look at more like a lifelong addiction to the outdoors at least thats how my wife describes it.
RoLo reply :
In my initial post, I said that I cannot comment on your study without seeing the nuts-and-bolts.
Now were up to post #33 and I see nothing on the board but opinion-after-opinion (we're going to factor that out...right?).
If you were looking for additional variables to factor into your program, you've got a great start (some really fine input).
Is it possible to devise a "system" that enhances your ability to catch bass? Of course it is!
A slow-steady aim is usually better than shooting-from-the-hip. The best analogy that comes to mind is the stock market.
It seems that most investors trade from the seat-of-their-pants, believing that it's impossible to time the stock market.
Before the Internet, I spent several years developing a "Stock Timing" program. At the end of every day,
I'd grab reams of tractor-printer paper off the floor, but not in vain. It enabled me to retire well ahead of schedule.
Most any phenomenon can be quantified through trend analysis, because all natural events tend to move in trends.
Though I'm not a skeptic, I need to be a realist. When it comes to developing a "Presentation Model", the variables are
overwhelming, but even worse, they're in constant motion! Since you're attempting to hit a moving a target using trend analysis,
your most invaluable tool will be a "Trend Reversal" indicator. I mean that sincerely, because the sooner we recognize
a trend reversal, the sooner we're back in the game. Nothing is impossible ('impossible' is a mindset) but one thing is sure,
you certainly have your work cut-out for you 
Roger
K_Mac reply :
FIN-S-R
I said at the start of this thread that I like your idea. What I like even better, after reading your responses to the feedback, is your attitude. Your ability to take crtical input graciously will go far in helping you in your work.
FIN-S-R reply :
RoLo: i hear what your saying and believe me i do not intend on formulating a stand alone "lure selector". If you notice in some of my posts I have referred to a project that this table is a part of.
The "reaction gradation table" is simply a range of stimuli producers at different levels we as anglers commonly associate with fishing. Essentially the lures or techniques in the table are specific names that refer to a specific level of stimulous. Rather than assigning arbitrary number scores to the different levels of stimulli, I have associated them with easily recognizable and ubiquitous refereneces to fishin' stuff.
I also agree with the seat of the pants comment and this is not at all a seat of the pants type of endevour. Heres the short version of this project's history.
The first 23-24yrs of my life- getting addicted to the outdoors and making many general observations.
Next 6 mos.- planning strategies and experiment design and defining parameters.
1 year- trial and error on data collection techniques and data organization.
6mos- trial runs w/ data collection and management strategies.
6mos- refining collected data and salvaging usable information from failed collection attempts.
1.5 yr- collecting data for specific parameters, and implementing into analyzation techniques.
Now here I am today... Im still tweeking and re-re-organizing and splitting and lumping to adjust curves in the trend analyses I have going. I am finding that a few simple data anylization techniques are much more accurate than 1 really complex algorithm.
I have produced a somewhat usable product, but there are still elements that need tweeking...thus I air my laundry on this forum.
And after having you guys promt the thinking process in a few new directions, Ive made some changes...not drastic, but it cleared up what was a shotgun plot into a pretty nice bi-modal distribution consisting of a more reaction component and a more finnesse component for each of the 12 behavior phases i have included in the project...hows this look
1.Weightless
2.D-shot
3.Jig Worm
4.Split Shot
5.T-rig
6.Jig-n-Trailer
7.C-Rig
8.SwimBait
9.Deep Hard Jerk
10.Hollow Frog
11.Hard Jerk Bait
12.Swim Jig
13.Popper
14.Mid-Crank
15.Deep Crank
16.Solid Frog
17.Big SpinnerBait
18.Spinnerbait
19.Chatter Bait
20.BuzzBait
21.Vibration Bait
BD reply :
Fin I would love to help you in this endeavour. I live in N.E. OK. around Skiatook....where are these two bodies of water you are referring too? The title of this thread (albiet off topic slightly) implies slight 'arrogance' by the way it's worded.
I also believe though in there has to be some natural law working in wild animals, but governed 100% by this?......perhaps not.
I am going to go back and re-read all the posts. I seriously would love to help out in data collection, fishing experiments, lure selections that seem to work in my part of the state, etc. etc.
Oh and yes, please paragraphs people!!!
FIN-S-R reply :
BD: I worded the title that way on purpose to mabe draw a little MORE criticisim and spur that natural urge to "set this guy straight". I really dont want to come across arrogant, but i do understand the human response to this kinda of stuff and lets just say means to an end.
The two lakes to which i refer are murray and texoma. I live smack dab btw the two, i mean literally almost equi-distant from each (11 min in h2o at murray/ 15min in h20 at Tex.) if youve fished these two very much youll know that they fish really different.
Murray is a medium to smallish clear lake with lots of grass pond weed and big pads, and has a sandstone watershed for the most part and is really getting dominated by smallies. But dont think there arent some freagin' huge largemouth in that pond...ive seen em' during spawn. 1 in particular for 3 yrs in a row bedded under the same stump. Shes easily double digits but im not gonna try and lie about how much i think she weighs....I just know shes bigger than any bass Ive ever seen "on the hoof". Got her to bite once in three years...she snapped 25lb vanish fc like it was spider silk...man oh man...maybe next april. I view murray as more of an overpressured trophy lake, but i will get plenty of arguments from the bank beaters on that one.
Anyway, texoma as you may know isnt well known for big largemouth, but it has a really healthy population of large/small/spots and doesnt exhibit the same overpressured symtoms as does murray. Some state record smallies have come from tex and i figure more will in the future (I had a couple of monsters this summer). It has a cheifly limestone local watershed with the washita and red bringing in mixed minerology from as far west and north as the texas panhandle. It doesnt have much in the way of vegitation, but the little pads are beginning to come on pretty strong. It can range from pretty clear to choco. milk.- Alot like keystone
Neither of these lakes are extreme cases in composition, rather they are averages of the two extremes.
Id like to hear your thoughts and input
And as for the 100% comment- your right nothing is ever 100% in nature, but what I intend to do is deliniate a mean (average) and figure out how to work both sides within the statistical deviation.
BD reply :
Familiar with both....yes different for certain.
We have lakes that also are 'vastly' different comparison wise.
Dripping Springs is mainly wood and wind, and 'stained' water, where as Skiatook is gem clear, rocky, and full of both smallies/spots/and largemouth (large not so good as it once was however.)
I will continue to add my two lincolns on this subject, because while fascinating and mind probing, it's tough to nail anything down, but I can see this huge study come full turn and be helpful....even if seasonal.
I haven't seen any consideration for spooky fish or noise related variables, in relation to being a negative influence. I can assure you, in our 'clearer' lakes, noise is a huge factor at certain times of the year, or even the day sometimes. So would we then tell people to not use rattles or fish close? Definitely not I say....
BD reply :
Thanks for the paragraphs too
FIN-S-R reply :
My thoughts on "spooky fish":
You have to start out with the "joe six pack" bass in mind, and then adjust. Tex is a pretty good place to find the "joe six pack" or "jane wal-mart" bass. Not overly spooky and not overly agressive. Slightly cautious, but ready to eat. Now on murray I have found that the majority fo the 14"+ fish I am after are somewhat more attuned to the finnesse end of the reaction gradation included in previous posts. But I have also found that with a long enough cast or sustained boat traffic like summertime, even the spookiest of the murray fish will smash an LVR or vibe and even a buzz on a calm clear day.
This again relates back to some statements I made about considering only those variables with overwhelming influence on a system. At a point pressure becomes less of a factor based on instinct conditioning. Now if those fish could think...they'd be outta there quicker than you could say scat. In this respect conditioning is detrimental and goes against logical thought.
Ex. I have learned not to leave my purple gulp worms dragging along in the water (they dry out real fast) on murray during the summer. When boat traffic reaches its highest point sometime in july those main lake fish will literally come up and hang them selves taking a swipe at anything with a purplish or whitish color to it you leave hanging over the side of the boat...and big 'uns too..I lost a rod last summer to this. ive also put a couple of keepers in the boat this way..purely by accident and i didnt win anything because of it.
So back to your comment...You have to adjust to meet your specific conditions, but that doesnt mean you have to go out in left field to do it.
BD reply :
Major influences (my view) :
Wind and direction of wind
Water Temp
Sun/moon phase
Cloud cover (and the lack thereof)
Thermocline (specifically where it is depth wise)
Barometric Pressure (general ranges are okay i.e. 30-40)
Sunrise/Sunset time (goes with sun direction too, since it's time of the year)
Water Clarity (can be broken up several times or general rules 3-10' visibility=clear etc)
Forage of body of water
Type of lake (man made or natural)
Structure changes of said B.O.W.
Cover/no cover
From here, this can cover every type of B.O.W. (body of water.) Now the hard part begins.....
Hale reply :
FIN - the second post was sarcasm but not to be insulting or disrectful. Just to make light of what we are all after.
Keithscatch reply :
QuoteFin I would love to help you in this endeavour. I live in N.E. OK. around Skiatook....where are these two bodies of water you are referring too? The title of this thread (albiet off topic slightly) implies slight 'arrogance' by the way it's worded.
I can't see that this title is considered arrogant. The only arrogant statement on this entire thread was uttered by someone who apparently feels the need to TELL us that he is a "guru" or an "aficionado" on bass. That one floored me.
QuoteNow here I am today... Im still tweeking and re-re-organizing and splitting and lumping to adjust curves in the trend analyses I have going
Question I have for you is all of this tweaking, analytical study, and re-organizing of data helping you catch more and bigger bass? If so, then this can be a great tool. If not, then what are you looking to gain by this?
RoLo reply :
QuoteI also agree with the seat of the pants comment and this is not at all a seat of the pants type endevour
Fin, I hope you understand that I didn't use the phrase "seat-of-the-pants" to describe your project,
on the contrary, it was used to describe an angler "without" a system, just like a trader "without" a system.
QuoteI am finding that a few simple data anylization techniques are much more accurate than 1 really complex algorithm.
That statement is probably more accurate than you realize.
To digress, when I coded the stock timing strategy, the first thing I created was a monster (took about 5 years)
It was comprised of overly intricate and complex algorithms, then the light went on.
If other investors aren't willing or able to think outside the box, then I'm acting in a small minority and my system is destined to fail.
In a nutshell, I was trying to measure human emotion, while you're trying to do the same thing with animal reaction (quite similar).
By the way, when I speak of Nuts-and-Bolts, I expected you to say: Tandem Exponential Moving Averages
Roger
BD reply :
QuoteBD: I worded the title that way on purpose to mabe draw a little MORE criticisim and spur that natural urge to "set this guy straight". I really dont want to come across arrogant, but i do understand the human response to this kinda of stuff and lets just say means to an end.
I took Fin at face value, and just wanted to make sure others would not be 'scared' to add.....knowledge is power in the end. No harm no foul Keithscatch or Fin etc.
BD reply :
Fin/gang.....what do you think about my recent post on the "key" variables? I feel (and of course it's only an opinion....kind of like a$$h0les.....the old saying) this covers every type of known body of water, so from this, we can interject thoughts and the main other factors (such as their carnal DNA imprint to feed. the lure's noise/shape/weight)
Etc.....
I really want this to turn into an awesome knowledge tool, more over, suggestions of throw this because I catch fish on it all year.....or something along that lines. I like where this is going is my point.
Post on Lads!
roadwarrior reply :
Well,
Here are three rules that you can live by:
1. Fish where they live.
2. Feed them what they eat, or
3. Tick them off.
If you are not on fish, I don't care what you throw or how well you present it, you will NOT catch fish.
I fish a lot of live bait, but if we are just talking about artificials: Your lure should be something they like (soft plastics, jigs and minnow like lures) or something they hate (reaction baits).
cart7t reply :
There was this fish biologist name Loren Hill that had spent countless hours in labs with bass and he thought he discovered a way to figure out exactly what color of lure you should be fishing. He created this really snitzy color gauge with a probe you stuck in the water and it told you precisely what lure you should tie on so the bass could best see in the conditions you were fishing in. Lure manufacturers lined up creating a special line of lures that worked with his system.
A couple years later, those color gauges were on the closeout tables along with the lures made for it.
I see the color selector has been "reintroduced" to the next line of suckers. ;D
Seriously, as has been stated, trying to take a wild gamefish like a largemouth bass and predict it's preferances so you can can it into a little chart so you can show up at a lake and tie on a lure that's going to stimulate a fish into biting won't work. You're much better off learning seasonal habits of the fish and the methods that will best take the fish for the conditions you're facing. I'm afraid it would take many years to compile something like you're trying to do that would have any accuracy at all.
RoLo reply :
QuoteI see the color selector has been "reintroduced" to the next line of suckers.
I didn't realize that the Color Selector was making a comeback.
I can still see Orlando Wilson dunking the sensor into the drink, then trying to match his lure color to the readout (Oh Holy One)
GAMEOVER reply :
If one could break Bass fishing down to a science, like you seem to be applying it wouldnt be as fun. Fish as with an living thing including us humans will always do things that are not so called "text book". Granted there are some things to help you improve catching Bass and more of them, there is and will always be things that are just out of our hands.
FIN-S-R reply :
GAMEOVER: Your exactly correct in stating the only rule is consistant exception, but examine those exceptions and see how they distribute around a mean, and you all of the sudden have created a trend analysis. As I have stated in this thread, I am attempting to characterize the mean and formulate strategies to work within the variences about that mean. As for taking the fun out of fishing...for some this may, but Im a nerd and this kinda stuff is fascinating to me.
cart7: I dont believe the color selector science was real sound...not to say the lab methods werent good and the suggestions arent valid, but color is so subjective...its one of the variables I am not about to try and factor in. I have found that in bio studies empirical data is better than lab data for application minded outcomes. With color you just need to know 2 things, #1 bass see the world through a sort of yellowish greenish tint, and #2 the deeper you go, fewer colors are visible with blueish colors being the most visible at depth. thats why greens work so well (yellow and blue make green). And come on you HAVE to use a little common sense about fishing considering seasonal habits and lure color choices. I am attempting to quantify the most influencial variables in a system and formulate a strategy to approach that system, not create another color selector...im not arrogant enough to think I can PREDICT anything, I just think a human brain is capable of figuring out a range of possibilities, and then narrowing those possibilities to a manageable set. And your right about the many years, I dont plan to stop fishing anytime soon!!!
roadwarrior: You have illustrated my point perfectly, so let me ask you this...where do they live, what do they want to eat, or do you have to tick em' off. Questions you face everytime you hit the h2o. I want to make a shortcut through this thought process.
BD: Here are the key variables Im considering- I am making three Assumptions #1 You can figure out the dominant seasonal phase, #2 You are familar with the local forage #3 You have a target species
**in order of importance
For General location: Predominant Seasonal Pattern (Hours Positive Radiant Energy or H2O temp-one of these two ALWAYS dictates because fish dont have calendars)
Water Trend (up or down)
Wind Direction
Water Level
Water Chemistry (pH, DO, Turbidity, Salinity....Whatever is most important)
For Typical Agression: Predominant Seasonal Pattern (ex. immidiate post spawn sucks)
Presence of wind or current in presence of forage (one of the two will generally overide the other)
Relative barometric pressure trend (Lower in warm weather=Bite/ Higher in cold weather=Bite from sun warming)
Light Level (fish dont have eyelids)
For Relation to Cover: Availability in presence of forage
Light Level
**Moon Phase ENHANCES behavior- Does not dictate
**Thermocline adjusts positioning about a structure feature-Does not dictate
The only hard and fast exception that I have found to be a rule is if a storm is severe enough (barometric pressure drop that should cause increased bite doesnt) it will cause fish only to bite either extreme finnesse or extreme reaction- Usually both work at the same time
RoLo: Im doing a hybrid ordination statistical method I picked up while working as an ecologist for the dreaded EPA
Thanks to everyone for the input and criticism...Keep it coming
FIN-S-R reply :
Oh yeah, and someone commented on wether or not this thing is helping me catch fish. The answer is absolutely..if nothing else it helps to organize my thoughts and define a distinct direction to go in rather than random bank beating
Chris reply :
Oh yeah, and someone commented on wether or not this thing is helping me catch fish. The answer is absolutely..if nothing else it helps to organize my thoughts and define a distinct direction to go in rather than random bank beating
This would be the direction that I would run with.
What conditions dictate where you should fish. Let the fishermen make their own conclusions on which lures to use because lures and tactics change from year to year. If the water conditions do this then the bass do that. If the weather does this then the bass do that. Then list a set of lures that cover what the bass are doing. If you make a list that shows to what degree each lure provokes a strike based on movement or vibration people are going to get lost. If you show them that when you have a cold front and the bass are hugging cover that a vertical jig will provoke more strikes than a buzzbait based on the activity level of the bass then that would be more useful to the general public. You need to explain why one lure works better under certain situations based upon the conditions and cover you are faced with. If you just give a blanket statement that this list of lures are in order based on how much the lure provokes strikes then people will not have enough information to know when it works and when to change.
FIN-S-R reply :
Chris: I agree that a chart as a stand alone "lure selector" isnt very helpful, and cant be very accurate. The list of lures or techniques i posted here was simply a vehicle to draw criticism toward an element in a project that does exactly what you described. The lures are just arbitrary place holders that signify levels of reaction or finnesse "we" as anglers are familiar with and commonly use, so you can insert or delete as you feel necessary. This reaction gradient is the elemnt of the project that sort of ties in a number of less tangible aspects of the study with practical usable "put your hands on it" references. I initially wanted to hear different opinions on the ranking of those lure and technique constituants in order to get rid of my own bias (I like to fish jigs/drop shots/vibration baits). I didnt want my own opinions to keep me from looking at the rankings in an honest manner. The system I have described works like this:
1. Make your best guess at the dominant seasonal pattern
2. Use a reference Ive come up with to select a group of most likely productive areas in relation to the seasonal pattern (usually the areas end up being adjacent to one another so you can transition quickly if needed, and they overlap with adjacent seasonal patterns so if your off a pattern, youll still have a good chance at picking up on the dominant pattern)
3. Evaluate the Locations Based on the Variables I posted, as High or low probability for holding catchable fish
4. Evaluate the Probable Agression level of the fish (I have a reference table for this too- Its based on Variables in previous posts)
5. Evaluate the probable Relation to cover (Reference Table)
6. Select a group of techniques that relate to the most likely reaction level of the fish and are applicable for the situation (There is a High and Low reaction group available for each situation)
This sounds kinda long and drawn out, but I have it arranged such that some of the steps are worked through simultaneously. It takes me a little over 1 min to come up with a conclusion (after collecting the necessary info)
So far I havent really come up with anything "new", but when you put all the info "we" as anglers have access to in a sigle location and then organize it according to known or accepted or observed trends and rules, it really clarifys what strategy should be the most productive in a certain area at a certain time.
if your like me, I kinda get stuck on 1 thing that worked last weekend, or this time last year, or a spot that produced real good on a day like this.....
The system I have come up with helps to open up possibilities with high probability for productiveness.
Vorlin reply :
As I look at all this, I see two out of three categories addressed within the whole thread:
1) Conditions and affect on appetite This includes:
-Water temp
-Seasonal pattern
-Spawning
-Barometer changes
-etc.
2) Qualities of the bait that allow it to be sensed by the fish. These include:
-Vibration
-Color
-depth fished (bottom jigs vs. topwater, etc.)
-Size
-etc.
What I don't see addressed is what I call "Catalysts". Catalysts specifically play to the fish's conditioning and reactions... think of it as psychology.
When dealing with a Coyote, you know some things about how he'll react if you understand his psychology. He'll pick at trash, hunt in packs, run from any 1:1 confrontation and if you charge into a pack of them sceraming at the top of your lungs then you know they'll scatter and run.
When dealing with Wolves you know that they'll take down live prey, take advantage of anything sickly, work in packs to cut a victim from a herd and, during mating season, will seek out 1:1 fights. They will also challange any and all others in their "family" once a year in a ritual designed to establish the dominant pecking order within the pack. This is why they don't make good pets for families... everyone in the family literally has to beat the wolf's rear end once a year to avoid being bitten or nipped at all year because you let him get dominant on you.
So, how does this apply to fish?
A) They love to hit something that is tunnel visioned as it chases something else. If a medium sized crawdad is pouncing on a minnow, a bass is going to be in heaven because it will hit the crawdad while it's tunel visioned and not watching it's back.
They love to ambush prey. They wait where there are edges, corners and other transitions where they can pounce upon an unsuspecting victim as it turns the corner.
C) They can be goaded by making them think that they're about to miss out on something good. Just like a small child who never wants a toy unless another child reaches for it, a bass may not be all that interested in a lure that you're dangling in his face... but yank it away just a foot or so and watch him snap at it. He hits what he thinks he's about to loose, not what looks as if it'll be available all day long. This is why many guys cast a spinner bait and then let it sink for 3-5 seconds before yanking the guts out of it, pausing and then doing a hook set. The fish watches the drop and doesn't react... but when the bait darts away as if it's running away, WHAM!
I've also used C above when bobber fishing with cut bait. The fish nibble and nibble... stealing the bait a little at a time. So, I move the bobber about 5-6 inches. 2 seconds later, it disappears into the water with a plopping sound. Take it away to make them want it.
Post spawn, you can catch fish that guard their fry by using a medium-large lure and making it run at the fry. This is what they do in Thailand to catch snakeheads. The fish thinks that the lure is a threat to the fry, and so nails it.
There's so much more involved than if they can detect the lure or like it's color.... the conditions tell you if they probably do or probably don't have an appetite. You can use that info to select a good strategy. IF they may bite to eat, then match the hatch or whatever else is on the local menu. If they aren't likely to feed, then use some other tactic to make them nip at your lure (mentioned above as ticking them off). Some fish are territorial and you can catch them by being the invader that has to be run off.
Ask yourself WHY the fish is likely to bite something.... and biting is different than feeding. If you can't get them to feed on your lure, maybe you can get them to kick it's butt. Either way, the hook ends up in their mouth and you end up with the fish.
Vorlin
earthworm77 reply :
Hey Keith.....
Perhaps if you knew what the definition of aficionado meant, you won't be floored. You jumped the gun. Time to lighten up a bit.
Wow, next time I'll think better of trying to clarify my statements so people don't think I'm coming out of left field despite that much of this thread is out of left field. I don't think anything should have floored you at all. But just so you understand what aficionado means, I'll post the definiton from Webster's below.
Main Entry: afi·cio·na·do
Variant(s): also af·fi·cio·na·do /-'nä-(")dO/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dos
Etymology: Spanish, from past participle of aficionar to inspire affection, from afición affection, from Latin affection-, affectio -- more at AFFECTION
: a person who likes, knows about, and appreciates a usually fervently pursued interest or activity : DEVOTEE <aficionados of the bullfight> <movie aficionados>
In my post I wanted to talk more about what Fin-S was saying but I thought better of it because I didn't want to hijack the thread with my own ideas which may have already been published somewhere.
I'll also be sure to consider editting my avatar which says light tackle guru, sorry you think it is arrogant.
Oh, this just in, I just rejected that consideration, sorry.
Re: The Color C Lector
This instrument acurrately shows light penetration and tells the angler what color can be seen best. Nowhere does that mean that the color that can best be seen is the best option for fishing in that depth....it is simply assumed. For what it is worth, the C Lector is a pretty accurate tool, it may just have been sold under the wrong pretenses.
paparock reply :
Every cloud has a silver lining, is the way the saying goes and in my case with my neurological disease I feel like the girl in the movie Fifty First Dates at times. At least I keep getting a first chance to get it right when it comes to new fishing techniques. I can also forget about ingrained bad habits because after a short time I probably will not remember them. Rather than videotape like in the movie, I have a huge notebook that allows me to refer to subjects and techniques when I go blank. Anything that helps me remember and helps me stay organized is a big plus for me like my computer program for my lake with a built in log feature. I also take many notes. We all have weaknesses and I try to compensate for mine to make me a better fisherman.
FIN-S-R reply :
Surprised to see this thing is still getting hits.....
earthworm77: I would like to hear your ideas and I hope this is not too left field for you.
Took the "project" out this weekend for another field test...It worked pretty well (2nd place out of 35-40 boats).
Im getting an idea of how this thing will be helpful and how much help it can be to me. It took me about 5min to catch my first fish in practicing with it the day before the tourney, and I managed to catch what would have been a 10lb limit (10lbs always get a check on this a lake) on a day when even the local "experts" called it tough. The weather pattern shifted dramatically overnight, and I adjusted according to the info in my guide. Tournamanet day it took about 1hr to get a limit on a day that saw few of any quality. The guidance this thing imparted was not exactly specific to the best color and or presentation, but it got the reaction response correct, and the area correct. I caught all my non-cull keeper fish on a 100yd stretch of a flat. It was 1 of 2 places on the lake that fit the "optimum position" description from the guide. The other "optimum position" was employed by the winners of the tourney for their limit.
For a couple hours during practice and for about 30 min of the tourney I went to some "real good spots" that did not fit with the guide recomendations, and had no luck.
The guide was no help in nailing down the particulars of the optimum color pattern, this was something I had to experiment around with and it was actually my partner who had the correct idea about color from the very beginning. So it does have some limitations. It was though very useful in finding the concentration and quality of fish needed to take a check home.
I reflection, i am realizing that there is really nothing new under the sun or the water, but constructing a tool that allows for quick accurate organization of the most influential variables in a system to make a descision might be novel. I believe this guide will after a few more years of scrutinization become a very valuable tool in quickly locating and patterning catchable fish.
earthworm77 reply :
Fin, maybe we could have a go in a pm. I have published several bass fishing related books and eBooks and one in particular has a lot of ink dedicated to the path you are going down. I kind of kept quiet because I didn't want to hijack your thread. What some guys won't get is that nobody is wrong here. I mean, you simply can't dispute something simply because it didn't work for you but at the same time you certainly can't write something off as gospel because it did.
My belief on how to go about catching fish is based more upon season as a starting point and then it gets broken down from there based on literally huindreds of variables. I wouldn't be able to break this down any other way for me anyway. It has worked for me. It may be we are describing a very similar system only making it sound a bit different.
FIN-S-R reply :
Mr. Worm:
Check out your PMs.
RODBENDER reply :
I must have a week mind cause reading this thread done give me a headache
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