Old Timers Round Up Part 2 Deep Water Fishing 2024

Hellbenderman reply :

It was great to hear from so many people with decades of experience from the last post. It seems that most of us started the same way, walking around the edge of a pond or river with a relative. The trouble started when we got our first boat, and then just kept banging the shore line because that's where we came from, and, hey, you caught a bunch up on the bank last April. Last summer, June, July, and August, was the best big bass summer I had in decades. Most of this happened on my little local lake. I dropped in here one day to see if anyone else was having a good year, and found nothing but complaints. Admittedly, the shoreline on this lake is spectacular; fallen and standing timber everywhere. It's like a magnet. I came to discover that I was the only one fishing in 15 - 30 feet and ignoring the shoreline. I can remember a ways back when anything over ten feet was just not a consideration. I had no idea what was happening out there! I couldn't "SEE" anything! What was I supposed to cast at?!?! Fortunately, I had great teachers who started me down the right path, and it is a path. I think it takes some years to become proficient at deep water fishing because there is a lot to take into account when you can't "SEE" your quarry or the places your quarry hides. It's an educated guess and it takes a while to get an education. I'm going to assume that somewhere along the way everyone who has been at this as a passion for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years, has acquired a good deal of knowledge about deep water bass fishing, so I thought it might be fun to hear about how you became deep water educated and a few tips you might have we can all learn from. Youngsters are welcome. Knowledge is age blind. My first piece of advice is to learn about the life cycle of the bass and his food. This will help convince you the bass are down there and give you confidence you are not wasting your time. It will help you to "be the bass". Second, time on the water X 10. Take the time each trip to spend trying to implement a deep water attack, life cycle considered, even if unsuccessful. Go fishing by yourself if necessary. Time on the water X 10. Eventually, it will all come together. So, tell us what you will about how you came to be deep water savvy!

Wayne P. reply :

A long time ago, Buck Perry said there were more fish away from the shore than at the shore. That was good enough for me. The Green Box Lowrance sonar helped me find those off shore breaks. I rarely even get within casing distance of a shoreline anymore.

Hammer 4 reply :

Deep water spooning and jigging...

Catt reply :

Here's mine

1965: At the age of 14 I spend the entire summer working on my uncle Joe Addison's charter fishing boat in the Gulf of Mexico where he taught me how to read deep water structure. This education continued for the next several years and yea we had depth finders, they were paper graphs.

1972: Started bass fishing seriously on Toledo Bend at my father-in-law's camp on White's Point in the mouth of Lowe's Creek.

1973/74: Joined two bass clubs whose members included John Torian, John Hall, John Dean, Villis P "Bo" Dowden SR, Harold Allen, Larry Nixon, Tommy Martin, & Zell Roland all guides at Toledo Bend's Pendleton Harbor Marina. Ray Scott would latter come up with the "The Hemphill Gang" moniker arguably the most successful group of professional bass anglers to ever emerge from one small region of the nation.

1976: Attended a 4 day seminar in Houston Texas that totally changed my outlook on bass fishing. The man putting on that seminar was Elwood L. " Buck" Perry, not only did I buy his books but I became a devout student of his teachings. I took what Buck taught about deep structure fishing and applied it to Toledo Bend. Not only did the quantity of bass I caught go up but so did quality.

I'm still an avid student of the following

Elwood L. " Buck" Perry & Bill Murphy: Finding & understanding deep structure

Douglas Hannon, Ken Cook, Shaw Grisby, & Dudley Carver (Louisiana Wildlife & Fisheries Biologist): Understanding bass behavior

Rick Clunn: Mental aspects of bass fishing

Bobby Murray: Big bass can be caught on light line

That's the who's now for the what's

I was introduce to night fishing in 1973 and have continued until the present. These years of having limited or no visibility has heightened my awareness of what is taking place below the surface. This heightened awareness has made me better at fishing deep water where feeling the bite is harder than finding structure.

Crestliner2008 reply :

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A long time ago, Buck Perry said there were more fish away from the shore than at the shore. That was good enough for me. The Green Box Lowrance sonar helped me find those off shore breaks. I rarely even get within casing distance of a shoreline anymore.

X2 - I memorized his book as a teenager, which taught me well about what structure really is. Most fishermen think that a stump is structure! And even the Lowrance online sonar tutorial alludes to that - sadly. If everyone just got Buck Perry's book and studied it, they could not help but become better fishermen.

"Depth & speed control". Everything else is window dressing.

Lund Explorer reply :

Much like Catt, my deep water fishing started in the 1960's. Only my experience came on Lake Michigan during the height of what was called "Coho Fever".

The only other deep water fishing we did was through the ice for species such as lake trout, whitefish, and perch.

As a younger, we were taught the Michigan's lakes were all bowl shaped. Shallow along the shoreline with gentle slopes out to how ever deep the water was. When I'd read stories about fishing deep water structure, i.e. creek channels, dropoffs, and such, it didn't really seem like it meant much to someone fishing a bowl.

Fortunately, as I started my bass tournament fishing, I got to meet and fish with several anglers who knew the "secrets" of our deep water structure. Even our bowl shaped lakes sometimes held underwater humps or sunken islands. Many of these were the result of receding glaciers leaving what are called tailing's. the humps are made up of gravel and stones that the glaciers had pushed along and then dropped off.

We also have a few impoundments and of course flooded river mouths along the Lake Michigan shoreline that held many of these so-called "Southern Structures".

While I still do pound the shoreline quite often, I have found myself spending time on these deep water spots. It has doubled the amount of water I have to explore, and many times when the conditions are right, it has led to some fantastic catches.

Hopefully the tools available today will give today's anglers a chance to discover these hidden fish a lot faster than I did.

eyedabassman reply :

Nice Catt, Boy people would kill to fish with most of them! You were lucky to have them!

As for deep water, I guide at night in S.E. Wisconsin.I love fishing deep water day or night. But I like bassin in the dark over daylight ( summer ). I know for a fact numbers may go down but size goes way up! Whem fishing at night I fish from 10 to 30 ft.! There is so much to learn and such little time!

Fish M4ST3R reply :

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There is so much to learn and such little time!

well said

WRB reply :

Back in 50's bass fishing was close from Oct 1st and opened May 1st, thus the winter cold water, fall transition and pre spawn bass fishing was unknown.

I knew bass where deep because we caught them accidentally lead lining flutter type trout spoons, which was a problem because the bass could not swim back down with air bladders over inflated.

Before Buck Perry, Jason Lucas wrote about jigging spoons and weighted lures to catch deep summer bass. Perry's spoon plugging methods opened up structure fishing and changed bass fishing.

The fish finder "flasher" was the first affordable tool for the average bass fisherman to locate deep structure, followed by Lowrance's paper graph. Several brand of "flashers were available in the early 60's, the bass fishing paper graph came out in the early 70's.

Deep is relative to where you live and fish. Deeper than 40 feet, bass have a major problem with air bladders and our sport needs to resolve that problem.

Fizzing isn't the answer. Recreational fisherman can simply lower the bass back down using a torpedo sinker rig. Tournament fisherman must weigh in the bass.

WRB

Catt reply :

I should have been a little clearer but those are not the book titles but the subject matter contained in the books. Oh yea I completely forgot to mention Glen Lau's Bigmouth and Bigmouth Forever as well as his many other publications.

CWB reply :

Buck Perry is the man! I started fishing with my dad on a small natural lake and we did okay pounding the banks.

Then one day I saw something that changed my life. A boat was trolling and every 5 minutes he would pull in a bass or pike, all good size. I happened to chat with him at the ramp and he had a limit of 5lb+ bass and 34-38" northerns. (No catch and release back then). He was a devout spoonplugger. He gave me the little booklet that is still available today and a spoonplugger was born. I could not find any spoonplugs in the area, but used Bombers, Waterdogs, Hellbenders and later Bagley DB3's. My local tackle shop eventually started stocking Spoonplugs and I had my first run-in with the bait monkey. I still troll big spoonpugs for Musky, but not for bass too much anymore. With todays deep-diving crankbaits and jigs, worms, carolina rigs etc, I find it more fun to cast for them. I still like to fish the shallow slop and cover like docks, laydowns etc, but for consistency, stay deeper.

stratos 375 reply :

there's always gonna be one in the pack that's different. I'll volunteer for that slot. Eons ago when I fished competitively, many of the circut stops were on lakes that required you to have a decent deep water game. Which I did.

The last tournaments I fished were in the mid 80's, since then I only fish where I choose, and for 25 years, I've chosen tidewater about 60% of the time. Deepwater skills not required. The other 40% of the time I'm at my small home lakes where I never have to fish more than 10' deep, and do extremely well. It's weird, I still have the ability & skills to fish deep water, but I just don't care to. Oh yea, I forgot to add, sometimes it can be boring out there among the marker bouys bobbing up & down watchin a LCD screen.

I've turned into a shallow water slop fisherman, and it's great! Sidefinders, underwater cameras, color LCD's & marker bouys & GPS. I don't need any of that crap to catch fish. At this point in my life, deep water fishing is just a distraction from my real fishing strengths which are pitchin jigs and throwin jerkbaits.

I work weekends so it enables me to fish Monday thru Friday, every day if I want to. If I somehow feel that I won't catch 'em shallow, rather than have to fish deep, I'll just grab the varmit rifle, walk out the backdoor & go kill something.

To you guys who ply the deep waters, my hat's off to you. I know that there are some large & sometimes stacked fish out there, but the're all yours.

eyedabassman reply :

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there's always gonna be one in the pack that's different. I'll volunteer for that slot. Eons ago when I fished competitively, many of the circut stops were on lakes that required you to have a decent deep water game. Which I did.
The last tournaments I fished were in the mid 80's, since then I only fish where I choose, and for 25 years, I've chosen tidewater about 60% of the time. Deepwater skills not required. The other 40% of the time I'm at my small home lakes where I never have to fish more than 10' deep, and do extremely well. It's weird, I still have the ability & skills to fish deep water, but I just don't care to. Oh yea, I forgot to add, sometimes it can be boring out there among the marker bouys bobbing up & down watchin a LCD screen.

I've turned into a shallow water slop fisherman, and it's great! Sidefinders, underwater cameras, color LCD's & marker bouys & GPS. I don't need any of that crap to catch fish. At this point in my life, deep water fishing is just a distraction from my real fishing strengths which are pitchin jigs and throwin jerkbaits.

I work weekends so it enables me to fish Monday thru Friday, every day if I want to. If I somehow feel that I won't catch 'em shallow, rather than have to fish deep, I'll just grab the varmit rifle, walk out the backdoor & go kill something.

To you guys who ply the deep waters, my hat's off to you. I know that there are some large & sometimes stacked fish out there, but the're all yours.

I agree with everything you said! And I too am getting to want to fish the slop ( Or the cheese ) most of the time! But I guide at night and they pay for the biggins. So the deep water is were it is at. And don't get me wrong I love to fish deep water bass.I do think if you can catch bass in deep water, you now have the skill to catch bass anywere on a lake!

stratos 375 reply :

bassman, it would seem that we may be on the same page as far as this topic is concerned, however I will respectfully disagree with your last statement." if you can catch bass in deep water, you can catch them anywhere on the lake"

When a guy who spends the majority of his time in deep water heads in to the realm of 2-4' deep, he won't be as sucessful as the guy who fishes shallow all the time. Conversely, when a dedicated shallow water fisherman heads out to a 30' deep channel ledge, he won't be as sucessful as a guy who spends most of his time out there.

That said, the deep water fishing takes more time to learn, as it relies heavily on electronics, and is definately the harder of the two techniques to learn. True shallow water fishin requires a skill set all it's own. You can drop a jar of pork rind on the deck in 30' of water & still catch fish.

Drop something on your deck, or scrape your tr. motor on the bottom a few times in shallow water, & for the most part, you are done

Also for any newer anglers who think you just have to master deep water fishin to be sucessful, take a historical look at the B.A.S.S classics and invitationals. How many were won by guys out in the middle of the lake workin marker bouys? How many were won within a cast's length of the bank, and in water less than 8' deep?

WRB reply :

There seems to be a disconnect between fishing deep water and bank pounding. For the vast majority of bass anglers positioning the boat a cast away from the bank is the what over 90% of all bass anglers fish, who have a boat. The shore anglers don't have a lot of choices and can only cast out away from the bank at some angle. This reduces the bass water to about 30 yards around the perimeter of the lake.

Some lakes have a lot of bass located on similar cover, structure and depth as you are catching the bass along the bank. You simply need to look out over your shoulder away from the bank. The best example of what I'm talking about is follow a long tapering point out into deeper water. Fish this deeper water like you do the bank, except you can't see the shoreline line, you fish the break line.

Take a look at a good topo map and will may find shallower water surrounded by deep water. If this shallower water has cover or structure that attracts bait, the bass will be there, just like they are near the bank. It's really not fishing "deep" water, it's fishing where the bass are located.

During the winter the warmest water may be deep, then that where the bass will be the majority of the time, some may come up to feed shallower, but bass rarely travel very far to go from deep to shallow. During the hot summer days the bass tend to go deeper to find cooler water and move up shallower at night. The shallower at night doesn't always mean the bank, it can also be those outside areas with shallower water surrounding them. The bank fisherman can't walk out to those deeper water areas, boat fisherman can and should learn to look out over their shoulder.

WRB

stratos 375 reply :

Mr. WRB not to be a disagreeable, but your statement puzzles me. You said"during the winter the warmest water may be deep" The only way that's possible if if there is a deepwater spring pushin out water. Otherwise, that defies modern physics as I know it.

cold water is more dense, it'll naturally be the deepest. If you have warm water below cold water, it will turn over

WRB reply :

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Mr. WRB not to be a disagreeable, but your statement puzzles me. You said"during the winter the warmest water may be deep" The only way that's possible if if there is a deepwater spring pushin out water. Otherwise, that defies modern physics as I know it.
cold water is more dense, it'll naturally be the deepest. If you have warm water below cold water, it will turn over

You are right to a point; water gets less dense or lighter at 39.4 degrees F. 3 factors to consider; spring water, current and the affects of convective heating from the earth.

The earth is about 60 degrees at 6 feet or so below the ground, within the basses normal range. The cold air cools the surface water and slowly falls down through the water column, saturating the warmer water below, until it reaches a depth where warmer water neutralizes the colder water; if the lake is deep enough and has current or springs. If there is enough DO at deep depths, the bass go deep to find the warmest water available to survive. In shallow natural lakes without springs, current or convected heating; 39.4 degrees is warmer than 38 degrees or 32 degree ice and is deeper.

WRB

Catt reply :

Deep water is relative to the body of water you are fishing!

While many anglers refer to it as "Deep" water fishing it is in reality structure fishing and structure fishing is not only about deep water. I can promise you that our pro tournament brothers are fishing structure fishing even when working a shore-line.

It is a known fact that bass travel along breaks/break-lines and so when looking at a contour map the first break-line is the shore-line and the last break-line is the bottom of the creek/river (when present).

The type of fishing some here are referring to is often called "Off Shore" or "Open Water" and even it can be about shallow water fishing. I can be 2 miles offshore on Toledo Bend and still fishing in 10-15' of water because I'm working a hump, ridge, flat or some type of structure.

Regardless of water depth y'all had better be fishing structure

WRB reply :

Catt, I asked Don Iovino about fishing outside structure at El Salto when he first starting guiding down there. Don told me that the best fisherman he guided at El Salto came from Texas, usually the the Toledo Bend area because they understood what he was doing. Almost all his other clients wanted to fish the shoreline with everyone else, until he showed them pictures of all the 10+ bass he was getting off of mid lake structure.

TB must be a fun lake, big bass and lot of places to fish without the traffic. Our small CA lakes can be dangerous with recreational boaters not watching where they are going.

WRB

stratos 375 reply :

convective heating, the earth tempeature,warm water neutralizing cold water, disolved oxygen? please don't take offense, but it sounds like a lot of regurgitated research to me. I'm starting to get a migraine, I think I need to start wearing my tin foil hat again.

It really isn't near as complicated as all that, the're either bitin deep or they aint. Reams of research can probably be dubunked with a 3 dollar jiggin spoon. What's next, the coriolis effect, sunspot interference or maybe the latest shuttle launch? The trouble with research is that it's usually done by a researcher, not a bass fisherman.

again, please don't take any offense as I respect everyone's opinion and truly enjoy reading other's points of view. Especially from guys in the old geezer group, myself included.

WRB reply :

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convective heating, the earth tempeature,warm water neutralizing cold water, disolved oxygen? please don't take offense, but it sounds like a lot of regurgitated research to me. I'm starting to get a migraine, I think I need to start wearing my tin foil hat again.
It really isn't near as complicated as all that, the're either bitin deep or they aint. Reams of research can probably be dubunked with a 3 dollar jiggin spoon. What's next, the coriolis effect, sunspot interference or maybe the latest shuttle launch? The trouble with research is that it's usually done by a researcher, not a bass fisherman.

again, please don't take any offense as I respect everyone's opinion and truly enjoy reading other's points of view. Especially from guys in the old geezer group, myself included.

Fish where they are and they aint there, then fish where the aint and they are there. That's what the old timer told me back in the 40's when I started fishing.

It only took me about 25 years to figure out what he was saying. Just remember bass can't read and have the brain the size of a pea, shouldn't be too hard to catch them.

WRB

PS; the deepest bass I have caught (smallmouth) was around 100 feet deep from Crow Lake, Ontario Canada fishing for lake trout. Crow lake is just north of Nestor Falls and is extremely clear and freezes to 6 feet of ice, cold deep lake. What a bass was doing that deep in July is any one's guess.

NeedAnewScreenName-587943 reply :

fish deep!

from the Gaussian perspective, the shallows have been thoroughly seined; move offshore and catch the cows that see 10% of the pressure.

BigEbass reply :

I am a newB bass junky weekend warrior (btw, I need to be able to fish 5 days a week :-/

These are a few of my thoughts...being that I am new to the scene, consider them questions rather than assertions!!

I read Bill Seinmantel's book last year....and he pretty much kept it simple enough - fish the best spots (points, humps, flats, creekbeds, ledges) and consider shallow cover of course....and especially "spot on spot" type scenarios.....so if the spot is deep, fish it deep, and if it is shallow, fish it shallow....that is pretty much his words anyway. Now I am becoming more aware of deep structure and am trying to learn to fish it as of this unusually cold Alabama winter - but nothin beats an Alabama bucket mouth exploding on topwater people, thats just all there is to it in my book - it is this display of their ferocity that makes the largemouth so popular - not their size IMO - even a moderate or small size pig blowin up on my worm fished on the top is the best feeling for me However...I have yet to catch many bass that were over 5 lbs > but I have only been fishing for a year and mine is coming weather it be deep or shallow!

I will play devil's advocate quickly.... :

How deep was the two world record largemouth bass caught - as I recall they were both caught not with verticle jigging or deep trolling techniques....correct?? Doug Hannon said in an article I had read last year that the majority of his big bass over 9 pounds were caught on a 7 inch texas rigged worm - he did not say if he was fishing primarily in 30 feet - but I believe he fishes heavy cover in that little boat of his primarily?? Not saying all you veritcle only deep water folks should throw away your techniques - I am simply pointing out that there seems to me to be a great many ways to catch the oppurtunistic largemouth bass....and deep water is no exception (except for me cause I stink at is so far, you all are gonna help me with that)

Anyway, fish shallow only, fish deep only, fish both - some may avoid deep because of its technical difficulties or they may simply not prefer that type of fishing, but I think there is no one way to skin this catfish....like Bill Sienmantel says in his book - fish the best spots at various depths and find the fish, then catch em....seems like good advice to me (which does require deep water skills btw), but I dont know much yet

BigEbass reply :

For someone trying to learn how to go about this deep water techniques, where do I start? Someone suggest a first read or a website for me?

eyedabassman reply :

Stratos 375,WRB,Catt, would it be cool to have a round table debate or a raido show with all of us?

Let me explain that statment that I made! I do beleave that a GOOD deep water bass fisherman can be a very good shallow water fisherman! But I think a good shallow water bass fisherman will have more trouble fishing deep water! All bass relate to a object and when I fish deep water I am fishing some kind of a object or structure.

The lakes up here in S.E. Wisconsin get very pounded on weekends so it is very hard to fish at times. So I started to guide at night about 12 years ago.So I had to get good at fishing deep water. And I did learn some very cool thing along the way.

I think no one is wrong here! I would like share our little tricks about deep water fishing or what you fish in deep water?

PS. I would rather fish in the wright place with the wrong bait than fish in the wrong place with the wright bait!

WRB reply :

Catt has a ton of structure fishing tips on this site, all appropriate for heart land zone of bass fishing; hill land and high land class reservoirs.

In-Fisherman is a good source for natural lakes.

As mentioned Bill Murphy's book on Pursuit of Giant Bass is well written for deep structured lakes. Bill Siemental promotes fishing the total water column; top, middle and bottom; In the Zone.

I have written a few In-Fisherman articles that can be shared via email; Rare Chance at a World record Bass and Horizontal jigging.

Catt reply :

I want to reiterate again (if that's correct English) it is not the depth of water that attracts bass but rather what's under the water.

Structure fishing is not exclusively about deep water; I don't think everyone understands this. Even when I'm fishing the shoreline I'm looking for structure and not just aimlessly wondering down the shoreline. Again remember there must be a visible path of breaks and break lines on structure from deep water all the way to the bank (shallow water), this is where the bulk of food is available to game fish. It's not necessarily about putting your back to the bank as much as it is about getting off the bank. Example; the key area on a point may not be bank shallow, it maybe 15-25 yards off the bank.

Once the angler quits looking at it as shallow (bank) fishing vs deep (open) water fishing and starts concentrating on what's under the water (structure), then and only then will his consistency go up.

One should always fish the entire water column regardless of water depth.

stratos 375 reply :

eyedabassman, if'n there was a debate or discussion on shallow vs. deep, I'd gladly take the shallow position. After about 15 minutes and 2 cups of coffee, the other two guys would be on the phone calling in reinforcements.

I don't think it's anywhere near a debate, just a friendly discussion. We're all just talking heads with a keyboard in cybersapce. Nothing to get anybodys shorts jammed up in their crack about.

Catt reply :

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eyedabassman, if'n there was a debate or discussion on shallow vs. deep, I'd gladly take the shallow position. After about 15 minutes and 2 cups of coffee, the other two guys would be on the phone calling in reinforcements.
I don't think it's anywhere near a debate, just a friendly discussion. We're all just talking heads with a keyboard in cybersapce. Nothing to get anybodys shorts jammed up in their crack about.

eyedabassman reply :

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eyedabassman, if'n there was a debate or discussion on shallow vs. deep, I'd gladly take the shallow position. After about 15 minutes and 2 cups of coffee, the other two guys would be on the phone calling in reinforcements.
I don't think it's anywhere near a debate, just a friendly discussion. We're all just talking heads with a keyboard in cybersapce. Nothing to get anybodys shorts jammed up in their crack about.

I think you took me the wrong way! I am by no means mad or upset! I agree with all of you,I am not trying to pick a fight> Maybe I came across in the wrong way! I just do very,very well at fishing deep water cover at night. I also fish tournaments and I fish alot of shallow water also. I think we are all on the same page!

Matt Fly reply :

Alls I know is that bait ties into every equation except when they spawn during most times of the year.

Learn to stay on top of your bait on your favorite lake and every fish you seek, you'll find. Don't matter, striper, hybrid, bass, catfish all follow the shad at times, and at certain times, they let the shad move to them. Just depends on the time of the year on how much each species moves.

I tie the depth of the bait to the contour breaks and structure in the area.

Other than Spawn times, tell me when KVD, one of the top 5 all time anglers of all time appoaches a body of water that doesn't start by looking for bait in the area to find a concentration of bass.

Lake Fork is full of structure, and it don't all produce at once, something makes an area better than others, what could that be?

Hellbenderman reply :

I just love it when people start talking about this stuff because there are so many answers, but I didn't want this to be a debate on shallow vs. deep. Everything depends on our own individual situation and experience. I spent the late 60s, early 70s fishing shallow ponds, ten feet was deep, in Delaware. Then I moved to Alabama and my bass life changed over night. Two of my freshmen students took me under their wing really taught me to fish for bass. I thought I knew something...sheeeesh. I didn't know anything, but I learned quickly. After May, we never fished shallow. I'm sure that in the right place there are some bass in shallow, but in the middle of August, we were much more likely to find them on a creek bend in 30 feet than in shallow. I have found the same to be true in Maryland. By the end of May, bass at my lake have pulled back from the shallows and can be found in ten feet, but by late June, they are down to twenty feet plus. If I want to go fishing July through September on my lake and consistently catch fish, I have to fish deep. It's not a preference. I love shallow water fishing. Is there anything more spooky than dog walking a spook? Gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it, but I could throw that thing all day in August in the same place I killed them in April, and I'd wear myself out without catching anything. In summer, in my lake, I find I have much more success fishing deep. I just feel like I'm following the fish in my lake...spawning is over I'm taking the kids and going home...hahaha. Late evening, I find them in ten to twenty. This is my situation, it may not be yours. I catch most of them on deep running cranks, 15-20+. It is more difficult. It requires obtaining info from sources other than sight and solving a puzzle. A couple things I have found to be true for deep fishing. Dissect the area you are fishing methodically, you are looking for the "point on the point", that rock pile or bush or whatever that is attracting and holding fish. Remember big bass are ambushers. They want something to hide behind. That is what you are looking for on that point in twenty feet. When you find it, beat it to death. 75% of my fish come after crashing into a stump or limb or ticking a weed bed. Make contact! So, keep talking about it. There are people who want to learn. You never know when what you say may be someone else's EUREKA moment. I'm sorry, I just get the run ons in winter...can't fish...writing about it is a fix...just hate winter...must go fish.

Bankbeater reply :

A lot of the lakes around here are at most 20 to 25 feet deep, if that. About 30 years ago the fishing lakes were open from Memorial Day to Labor Day and closed the rest of the year, which made for some very heavy pressure. If you got to the lake late in the day you couldn't get the boat close to the bank because there would be a boat in the way or someone fishing from the bank. We started fishing out in the middle and discovered that we were catching when the ones hitting the bank were not.

Paul Roberts reply :

Use of, or proximity to, deep water is a nearly ubiquitous element of mature fish behavior. (And that is not saying that depth isn't relative, or that many mature fish do not have other options in some waters). But learning to fish the unseen is essential for consistent fishing through the year, whether it be a 5ft hole or a 30ft ledge. Fishing the unseen is a big challenge for most anglers I think. It was slow going for me too, and still is LOL, for different reasons now.

I started deepwater fishing by recognizing that, by summer, the shallow water fishing would all but die. This was true across species: trout, salmon, pike, muskies, walleye, perch, and bass. In really shallow ponds, the answer often meant that time day (or night) weighed in heavy. But in larger deeper waters, the answer most often meant head deeper.

My first deepwater bass fishing was without electronics, and mostly meant probing progressively deeper with jigs we didn't tend to have to go too far, esp for LM. I did this by fishing the deep weed edges for LM, or drifting over clean points or boulder fields for SM the latter found by drifting with jigs. We learned to read landforms and weededges, which told us something about what lay beneath. The importance of depth changes became apparent.

This pic was from the first summer my Dad and I left the bank and ventured out onto deeper weedlines with plastic worms fished on homemade jigheads a #4 split shot crimped to a J worm hook and glass rods, sometime in the early 70s.

I had my horizons stretched a bit spending a few summers fishing in the Thousand Islands region of NY, in which weedlines were around 20ft deep due to clarity. I also found that I couldn't catch smallies off GREAT looking islands, unless they had at least 20fow around them. Here's a journal entry from that summer.

To get to know a water body without electronics pretty much meant trolling, drifting, or casting. It was time consuming but, over time, we'd find places that held fish. In summer, we'd hit the same areas but work deeper. Again, we learned to read landforms and weededges, telling us something about what lay beneath. I think MOST anglers still operate this way, even many with sonar onboard. Chuck-n-wind and see what happens. And over time, they tend to find areas and times that will produce some fish, sometime.

When electronics came into the picture for me (flashers at first), the unseen areas opened up slowly at first. For bass I just extended weedline fishing to weed edges I couldn't see, and began to find weed channels, sunken humps, drops, holes and ditches too. I would buoy things and work them like a circuit. I stuck with my (various) jigs, but added cranks, SBs, and bladebaits like the Heddon Sonar and Cordell Gay Blade esp for SM. It was amazing how many SM could be piled up on a given hump, or LM on a given deep weed point. Shallow fish are more often spread out, deep fish can be really grouped up, and it was fun to try to find things that consolidated fish.

This was entirely in natural lakes though, being in NY, so the diversity of structures found in large flooded reservoirs was, and still is, mostly foreign to me.

I now fish a number of smaller waters (up to 50 acres or so), which are quite varied in make-up. Some are gravel quarries, others are small reservoirs, the latter have some sort of creek channel (or more likely -drainage), as well as the remains of construction. They are much more difficult to fish deep without sonar as the shorelines give fewer clues to what's below, and I'm only just beginning to fathom them. Each trip I add detail to my maps. It sure is fun.

Here's a pic of a certain cove during a severe drought, to give you an idea of what can be hidden below. This may not be seen as "deep water" but during early spring these cuts hold fish, where the "flats" do not. Cast three feet off and you'd never know they were there, or how close you were.

Last year, at a small local res., I met a couple guys who appeared at lake-side with float tubes to fish just as I was pulling my tube out at near dusk. They asked how I did and I replied, Only a few. (I'd spent a lot of my time mapping away-from-shore areas -slow going in a float tube.) They got all puffed up and said, Ah, you're leaving just as it's getting good! Yesterday evening we killed em! They don't bite well during the day. I waggled my head and said, WellI've got some things to learn about this place is all. But thanks. knowing full well that what I needed to know had nothing to do with limiting my fishing time.

WRB reply :

Great reply Paul and thank you sharing the piture and scketches.

Mentioned on another thread was the difference between pelagic and demersal bait fish. if the body of what where you fish doesn't have pelagic bait fish, then the predator fish have no reason to persue offshore deep water, unless the demersal bait fish are out there.

Sculpin, gobies and suckers may be out on deeper water, close or on the bottom, if the lake has those types of bait fish. Threadfin shad, gizzard shad, herring, smelt, golden shiners and sometimes crappie are pelagic bait fish that spend most of the time offshore. If the lake doesn't have those types, then near shore or near the bottom is where you should spend your time fishing.

WRB

BigEbass reply :

Catt - I think that makes the most sense - you clarification set me strait! Fish all depth depending, but know your structure - I am gettin there....slowly...

Disregarding the efficacy of topwater, catch rate, or size of fish caught - it is still, IMO, the most fun part of bass fishing!! It was my first topwater tiny little alabama spotted bass caught 2 years ago that triggered my now obsession!

Nothing beats a big ol Hog blowin up on my 7 inch pink trick worm fished on top - there is just no substitute baby!! ;D

I will add this in addition - I have frequently in my limited fishing experience so far quickly ran to shallow good looking cover for a quick try of topwater - even dead middle of summer - those largies hunker down in the thick stuff and on some occassions they will hit topwater for 1-2 strait hours with the ferocity and frequency I have not matched yet - we caught last summer (my neighbor and I) over 20 bass in 1 hour on buzz baits at high noon in july, swealtering heat, really calm - he thought I was crazy to go to the buzz bait...it certainly wont always produce granted, but I always give it a shot for this rare occassion!

Casting the banks without any regard for what is going on does seem silly, even to me as a newB - gotta know whats going on under there!

I cant wait thought to pull me out some big ones from the depths, I hope it will bring me more consistent catches as I diversify!

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
Great reply Paul and thank you sharing the piture and scketches.
Mentioned on another thread was the difference between pelagic and demersal bait fish. if the body of what where you fish doesn't have pelagic bait fish, then the predator fish have no reason to persue offshore deep water, unless the demersal bait fish are out there.

Sculpin, gobies and suckers may be out on deeper water, close or on the bottom, if the lake has those types of bait fish. Threadfin shad, gizzard shad, herring, smelt, golden shiners and sometimes crappie are pelagic bait fish that spend most of the time offshore. If the lake doesn't have those types, then near shore or near the bottom is where you should spend your time fishing.

WRB

Thanks Tom.

Yeah, I had that thought too, that not all waters are shad (pelagic) based. My waters now are bluegill and/or yellow perch based. I have one pond, that to look at it would appear like LM water, but has good SM in it. It's bluegill based ad the SM act like LM bc that's where most of the food is most of the time -in the weeds.

Raul reply :

Quote
I want to reiterate again (if that's correct English) it is not the depth of water that attracts bass but rather what's under the water.
Structure fishing is not exclusively about deep water; I don't think everyone understands this.

Man, this man and I must be mind twins, cuz the more I read what he writes the more I see he thinks like me.

Ok, let me add a little bit more salt grains. What I see is this tendency of many of the posters here is that emphasis they put on baits, the bait is a tool and it don 't perform miracles, you may have hundreds of baits ( like me ) but, like I said before: Learn to know your baits and learn to know your prey.

Know your baits means know how each of them works, what are it 's strong points, what are their weak points and so forth, why ? cuz you gotta choose the right tool to do the right task. But the point is that the right task depends on where you are going to fish it and trhat depends on ----> LOCATION

What I see, is this lacking of "situational awareness", it 's been said that 90% of the fish is in 10% of the water, problem is that most of the times you don 't know how to locate that 10 percent of the water that holds 90% of the fish because you don 't look with an analytical eye the surroundings, you are just there and what you see doesn 't tell you anything at all, you look and you don 't see.

Let 's put an example, an example I 've used many times in this forum:

In my neck of the woods certain tree species only grow in certain places. Willows in my neck of the woods only grow in wild form where the soil is moist year round and in the semidesertic climate I live that only happens in most cases either near a river or a creek channel.

So when I go to a lake built on my countryside the first thing I look for are drowned willow trees because I know that:

1.- The river creek channel which is structural feature is right at the feet of those trees or not far away, it means that I can expect a change not only in the contour but also a change in the depth.

2.- The river or creek channel has a different botttom composition and for what I know and have seen that bottom composition will be a mix of sand, crushed rock and boulders which will not be present above the river/creek channel.

So we have underwater: a drop, the river/creek bed, sudden change in depth, bottom composition depth, it doesn 't matter if it 's 10 ft deep or 30 ft deep, those elements will be there.

Now let 's put another example, weeds, we don 't normally see weeds like lily pads in my neck of the woods, what we see is hornwort, elodea, hydrilla. I know that those aquatic plants can only grow as deep and the light penetrates, if the bottom contour was all flat then the weeds would cover it like a carpet, but also I know that those plants can only grow not only under ceratin circumstances of light penetration but also, they only grow where the bottom composition they prefer. Any change in the bottom composition or on the depth will cause the weeds to grow stunted or not grow at all. You see a weedbed, I study the weedbed looking for irregularities in the weed growth, because those irregularities tell me that there 's something different undernearth and that soemthing different is what I 'm looking for, a change in the structure or the structural elements because I know those changes attract the fish to it.

Study the terrain above water level, what 's above water level is most likely to continue underwater, if it looks interesting above water level then it 's interesting underwater.

stratos 375 reply :

in regards to all the deep water puffery, put another big "W" in the shallow water side of the discussion.

Catt reply :

Quote
in regards to all the deep water puffery, put another big "W" in the shallow water side of the discussion.

Well at least he watches commercials

J Francho reply :

I asked my buddy, who lives in VA, what he meant by "deep" when talking fishing the other day, and he replied, "oh, 8' or so. Why, what did you mean by 'deep'?" I was thinking deep started at 20. Its all relative.

Paul Roberts reply :

'Deep' is semantic. If you fished a muddy res you may never fish deeper than 10feet, or maybe 5! If you fished a Shield Lake you may spend most of your year fishing 20+.

The one thing I see as common across the board is being able to escape from the tyranny of HAVING to cast to something visible.

Quote
...learning to fish the unseen is essential for consistent fishing through the year, whether it be a 5ft hole or a 30ft ledge. ...

Fishing Rhino reply :

I wish I could contribute to this topic, but this past year was my first experience at fishing deeper water.

The ponds in this area are quite shallow, my favorite only 6 to 7 feet deep with three small 9 foot holes which may be springs.

Most of the bass in this pond are found within a hundred feet or less of the shore. In the center there are usually huge, dense, schools of sizable (many over a pound) white perch, some crappie and yellow perch.

Very few ponds in this area exceed twenty feet in depth. In Plymouth, MA and the Cape Cod area there are ponds of substantial depths, a few exceeding a hundred feet.

This coming season I hope to learn some things about fishing deep.

It better not be too long a learning curve. Who knows how many years I have left to perfect the deep water thing.

I've enjoyed this thread. One thing I've noticed about this and the other old timers thread is that as people grow older they get irritable and cranky.

Seems the youngsters have the squabbling monopoly on this forum. ;D ;D

SirSnookalot reply :

The common term for pelagic is offshore in the ocean or seas, not a lake as I see it defined, and yes there is structure out there. Assuming one does define pelagic in reference to deep lakes as this is a fresh water site, you find the bait, you have found the fish, enticing a strike is another matter.

I grew up fishing a 1200 acre lake with depths up to 125', in those days with a rowboat and no motor for the first few years, needless to say no electronics, and to this day I have never used for freshwater. My #1 lesson from my father was to watch the water for activity and the birds as well. This holds true even more so in saltwater, find the bait, you have found the fish, where ever you are fishing.

Pedigohornet reply :

I never saw a depth finder until about 1971. In the mid-60's stationed at Ft. Sill I fished out of a tube. It was here I was introduced to Bombers and later, Hellbenders. I've cranked both many a mile through flooded timber in deeper water, at least what I considered deep back then. Likely the definition has changed some nowadays.

During the early 70's and the early 80's I fished lakes in Georgia, Florida and Louisiana and the deepest I ever fished was in the 25 foot range, mostly with weighted worms and some tailspinners. Caught a lot of nice fish, but nothing big [8 plus]. All the fish over 8 pounds I've taken have been, probably, 10 feet or less.

I find that larger fish can be found in moderately deep water year round if the cover is there, particularly woody stuff.

It's interesting to look back over 50 years of bass fishing and find that most of my big fish were taken on three type lures; worms, spinnerbaits and diving plugs such as the Bomber and Hellbender. That's about all a fellow need back then.

bear7625 reply :

Like most "old timers", I started when shoreline fishing was the way most anglers were taught. It wasn't untill the little green box did we know what was below the surface. It amazed me the first time I fished my favorite lake with a sonar. A lot of things we had heard from locals growing up, simply were not true. Remember all those deep holes? Every lake had em. I have found there is a time to fish deep as well as shallow. That's what makes fishing so great. If we ever stop learning, we may as well quit fishing.

Paul Roberts reply :

OK, in response to the depth is relative end of this discussion, or the either/or side of it...

Some basic ecology -the best language I know for understanding "what goes on down there and why":

I'll start with the pithy version, then give details for those who want it: The shallows, whether they are a 10 foot deep hump in mid-lake or a long tapering point, shoreline flat, or backwater slop bay, are the kitchen. Areas relatively nearby may act as the bedroom. The areas in between are often the dining room.

More details (I bother giving them bc that's where the devil is):

Supporting the "Prime Directive" (to reproduce) is access to food (nutrients in a form a given creature can utilize). In all living systems (for all practical purposes), nutrients are produced by plants via photosynthesis, which requires access to sunlight.

In aquatic systems, for all practical purposes, photosynthesis is supported in two different ways: pelagically by plankton, and by rooted plants. From here, nutrients are passed on through a food chain/web.

Bass, like all living things, live close to their food source. For mature bass this means fish and crayfish. Both of these in turn live close to their food sources -the magnitude of "close" depends on a creatures mobility.

Key to all of this is access to sunlight. The shallows, whether they are a 10 foot deep hump in mid-lake or a long tapering point, shoreline flat, or backwater slop bay, are the kitchen. Areas relatively nearby may act as the bedroom. The areas in between are often the dining room.

Know where the primary food sources are produced in the water body in front of you. For all practical purposes, all the food is produced in the band of water called the photic zone where light penetrates. In most freshwaters, most food is produced in the limnetic zones the areas where bottom substrate meets the photic zone. The areas within the limnetic that produce the MOST nutrients is in aquatic vegetation. Pelagic nutrient production tends to be secondary compared to rooted plants in raw capacity for cranking out nutrients per unit area. But, some waters have huge pelagic areas, thus can support large pelagic food sources like shad. All waters have both planktonic and rooted production, but the relative contributions vary greatly. Rooted veges produce the most per unit area, but my be overshadowed by the sheer scale of pelagic production.

Bluegills, perch, and other fish besides the obvious ones also use pelagic food sources, as well benthicsources, which is food available in the bottom substrate. Benthic food is usually detritus based decaying nutrients produced nearby in the photic/limnetic zones. The benthic zone is thus MOST rich in nutrients closest to the source -sunlight. Crayfish and aquatic midge larvae (in soft substrates) or mayfly larvae (in harder substrates) feed a lot of shad, bluegills, perch, and other bass' prey fishes as well crayfish, in these zones. I once surprised a fishing partner by homing in on a great fishing spot in a relatively small mostly pelagic-based fishery by heading right to an area where nutrients washed in via a little drainage. Perch and bluegills were there in droves hunting midge larvae and there were bass with them of course. No noticeable classic structure either just the nutrient pile. But there was a small sharp (2-3ft) drop nearby, and a couple dead branches, that both collected bass bedrooms apparently.

OK, I tried to keep this short and sweet. The point is, the shallows (pelagic or limnetic) are where the food production is, and bass have a love/hate relationship with it. They balance access to food with physiological constraints: temperature and light exposure being key. Different fish operate within certain temperatures best, and have their limitations. Too exposed to light and they are at risk of predation from anglers, pelicans, herons, osprey, mergansers, otter, mink, muskies, pike, bigger bass, flatheads,and the list goes on.

No, this doesn't tell you where to fish at any given moment, but it provides the basics of how water systems work, and how/why they differ. And, particularly relevant to this thread, provides the fundamental definition of depth and how/why its meaning varies across waters.

Hellbenderman reply :

Did I hear someone say they fished with hellbenders? Fished with them since 76. Never caught a thing on them. Worst lures in my tackle box. Don't know why I use them every time I go out. Terrible deep water lure for summer prowling in particular. If you have some, throw them away.

Lund Explorer reply :

Quote
Did I hear someone say they fished with hellbenders? Fished with them since 76. Never caught a thing on them. Worst lures in my tackle box. Don't know why I use them every time I go out. Terrible deep water lure for summer prowling in particular. If you have some, throw them away.

Do we have to throw them away, or just bury them in a drawer with all those other Heddon baits?

My old Silver/Blueback Tadpolly is sort of lonesome these days. It was the lure responsible for my first two 5lb+ LM. Argh, in 1967.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote
OK, in response to the depth is relative end of this discussion, or the either/or side of it...
Know where the primary food sources are produced in the water body in front of you. For all practical purposes, all the food is produced in the band of water called the photic zone where light penetrates. In most freshwaters, most food is produced in the limnetic zones the areas where bottom substrate meets the photic zone. The areas within the limnetic that produce the MOST nutrients is in aquatic vegetation. Pelagic nutrient production tends to be secondary compared to rooted plants in raw capacity for cranking out nutrients per unit area. But, some waters have huge pelagic areas, thus can support large pelagic food sources like shad. All waters have both planktonic and rooted production, but the relative contributions vary greatly. Rooted veges produce the most per unit area, but my be overshadowed by the sheer scale of pelagic production.

Bluegills, perch, and other fish besides the obvious ones also use pelagic food sources, as well benthicsources, which is food available in the bottom substrate. Benthic food is usually detritus based decaying nutrients produced nearby in the photic/limnetic zones. The benthic zone is thus MOST rich in nutrients closest to the source -sunlight. Crayfish and aquatic midge larvae (in soft substrates) or mayfly larvae (in harder substrates) feed a lot of shad, bluegills, perch, and other bass' prey fishes as well crayfish, in these zones. I once surprised a fishing partner by homing in on a great fishing spot in a relatively small mostly pelagic-based fishery by heading right to an area where nutrients washed in via a little drainage. Perch and bluegills were there in droves hunting midge larvae and there were bass with them of course. No noticeable classic structure either just the nutrient pile. But there was a small sharp (2-3ft) drop nearby, and a couple dead branches, that both collected bass bedrooms apparently.

OK, I tried to keep this short and sweet. The point is, the shallows (pelagic or limnetic) are where the food production is, and bass have a love/hate relationship with it. They balance access to food with physiological constraints: temperature and light exposure being key. Different fish operate within certain temperatures best, and have their limitations. Too exposed to light and they are at risk of predation from anglers, pelicans, herons, osprey, mergansers, otter, mink, muskies, pike, bigger bass, flatheads,and the list goes on.

No, this doesn't tell you where to fish at any given moment, but it provides the basics of how water systems work, and how/why they differ. And, particularly relevant to this thread, provides the fundamental definition of depth and how/why its meaning varies across waters.

I have a question regarding the above. First, a description of my favorite pond. Half mile long, quarter mile wide. Mostly a very rocky shoreline with abundant vegetation along the shoreline. Purple loosestrife the predominant plant, but also reeds, arrowhead, and a few patches of very tall grasses tight to the shore. Lily pad beds in a few places.

The pond is about six feet deep everywhere but the rocky shelf around the shoreline.

There are three nine foot holes which are probably springs.

Away from the shore, the bottom is predominantly, if not totally a soft mud, probably sediment washed into the pond from the surrounding land. The pond sits in a hollow.

There is no vegetation to my knowlege in the six foot depths. When I have anchored in this area, the anchor comes up with nothing but mud. No mussels, no gravel, no plant life, just a soft sticky mud.

That bottom is absolutely featureless save for the three small holes. The bottom echo never changes.

The pond has a large biomass of white perch. I have seen the screen on my sounder turn black several times because the school is so dense.

I have fished these schools with a small Mepps spinner and caught white perch after white perch that are over a pound. Occasionally, I'll pull in a crappie, and very rarely a yellow perch, but not a bluegill or any other of the sunfish family.

Only once did I manage to catch largemouth bass away from the shore. And I did get into a school, catching a half dozen or so while anchored. I took some bearings from landmarks to be able to go back to that spot again, but never got a hit after that.

It's possible that someone tossed a few Christmas trees at that place, and I stumbled onto it by pure luck. Not having a sounder at the time, to check out the bottom to which I was casting, leaves me clueless.

The bass may have been hanging in that spot or merely moving through.

Here's my question.

What is your best conclusion regarding what is sustaining such a large population of white perch? Would it be the midge larvae?

There have been a few times when all is quiet and calm that I have seen the surface thick with some type of hatch. So thick that at first glance it looks like a layer of dust or pollen on the surface. Close examination reveals it to be otherwise.

There are a pair of Osprey which have a nest nearby, and are usually seen "fishing" everyday. There is also a pair of Grey Heron, but they wade in the shallows feeding on smaller than trophy fish. A snowy egret or two are also regularly seen. The worst are three or four cormorants which fish the "bassless waters" inhabited by the white perch.

WRB reply :

You call this a pond and it sounds more like a small natural lake, is it man made? Does it have a dam or a means of controlling the water pool level; stream in and stream out?

Being only 6 feet deep with a muck bottom, decaying matter build up of sediment and dead vegetation, LMB survival may be marginal during the winter period when it freezes over. The springs would be where the bass must locate when the lake is iced over.

The best time to locate the bass is during the spawn. If you can't locate the bass or their beds, chances are few resident bass are in this pond/lake.

The only reason bass would venture out away from shoreline areas is to pursue baitfish, otherwise the bass should be shoreline cover oriented. Without pelagic bait fish, other than a few crappie, the bass are more than likely surviving on bottom dwellers, frogs and young of the year perch and crappie.

The flock of cormorants should be chased away if possible, they can devastate the fish population in a small lake/pond quickly.

WRB

PS; the only thing old about this reply is me. The cormorants wouldn't be a problem back in the day we no limit on the number we could shoot, the good old days.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote

...

Here's my question.

What is your best conclusion regarding what is sustaining such a large population of white perch? Would it be the midge larvae?

There have been a few times when all is quiet and calm that I have seen the surface thick with some type of hatch. So thick that at first glance it looks like a layer of dust or pollen on the surface. Close examination reveals it to be otherwise.

Tom,

If those perch are truly a pound, (~13"), or bigger than ~10" period, then I would say that they would have to be eating smaller fish. Where you found them makes perfect sense as they tend to be more pelagic-oriented. They are also voracious piscivorous, and very prolific reproducers. So...my guess from 2000 miles away is: they are sustained by YOY fishes -probably their own offspring.

One other thing I'd ask is: Can those perch get in from the ocean or larger lake? That would be obvious to you, so I doubt it but have to ask.

White perch are such effective open water piscivores that they can be fierce competitors with bass for food, and can crop down YOY of all species. YOY bass will move offshore to feed on plankton and midges, but a large popn of white perch would likely alter that scenario. Best survivorship in bass and other species is likely the shoreline vegetation.

I bet your bass eat YOY white perch too. I would look into research on freshwater juv white perch behavior cases. What tendencies do they have? Find those young WP and you've got a bead on your bass too. Offshore xmas trees might be such a location.

The insect hatch sounds like a midge hatch. From the sound of your description I suspect a tube-net variety. Most burrowing midges are larger and look like mosquito's. Look on the substrate and boulders and look for tiny (minute) vermiculated (wormy) markings that look like...dust or algae growth on the rock surfaces. These would be net spinning midges. They can cover entire pond substrates and produce billions of tiny adults. They feed very tiny fishes.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote

Quote

...

Here's my question.

What is your best conclusion regarding what is sustaining such a large population of white perch? Would it be the midge larvae?

There have been a few times when all is quiet and calm that I have seen the surface thick with some type of hatch. So thick that at first glance it looks like a layer of dust or pollen on the surface. Close examination reveals it to be otherwise.

Tom,

If those perch are truly a pound, (~13"), or bigger than ~10" period, then I would say that they would have to be eating smaller fish. Where you found them makes perfect sense as they tend to be more pelagic-oriented. They are also voracious piscivorous, and very prolific reproducers. So...my guess from 2000 miles away is: they are sustained by YOY fishes -probably their own offspring.

One other thing I'd ask is: Can those perch get in from the ocean or larger lake? That would be obvious to you, so I doubt it but have to ask.

White perch are such effective open water piscivores that they can be fierce competitors with bass for food, and can crop down YOY of all species. YOY bass will move offshore to feed on plankton and midges, but a large popn of white perch would likely alter that scenario. Best survivorship in bass and other species is likely the shoreline vegetation.

I bet your bass eat YOY white perch too. I would look into research on freshwater juv white perch behavior cases. What tendencies do they have? Find those young WP and you've got a bead on your bass too. Offshore xmas trees might be such a location.

The insect hatch sounds like a midge hatch. From the sound of your description I suspect a tube-net variety. Most burrowing midges are larger and look like mosquito's. Look on the substrate and boulders and look for tiny (minute) vermiculated (wormy) markings that look like...dust or algae growth on the rock surfaces. These would be net spinning midges. They can cover entire pond substrates and produce billions of tiny adults. They feed very tiny fishes.

The white perch are very large indeed. I have caught them in other ponds, and seen them seined in the Westport River, but very few of them match these for size.

As for a path to the ocean. There is, but, there is a kicker. The outlet is at the north end of the pond as a small stream. Then it meanders a short distance into a swamp which flows into Sawdy Pond. Sawdy pond has an outlet at the north end which flows into South Watuppa Pond. The swamp would be one obstruction for fish to make their way into Devol.

But the small dam, which is a couple of vertical pieces of channel iron with wood planks betwen them would block young fish returning from the sea. There does not appear to be any openings in this "dam" because there is not so much as a trickle that flows through it. The drop from the top plank to the water level below is four or five feet.

South Watuppa's outlet is the Quequeshan river which flows beneath the city into the Taunton River, which is a tidal salt water river. The waters of the Taunton River flow to the ocean by way of Narragansett Bay, and the Sakonnet Passage.

The other thing is, I have never caught, nor have I heard of anyone catching an eel in this pond.

Looking north from where I put in, you can follow the brown stalks of the dormant purple loosestrife around the edge of the pond. The exit is in the greenery between the loosestrife to the left and right.

Looking north from the dock. The shore at the top is nearly a half mile away. Taken in zoom mode which compressed the perspective.

Paul Roberts reply :

The eel would appear to seal the deal on imports.

Wow. Very nice shoreline veges -despite the fact that the 'purple strife is loose'. Your YOY survival hinges on that shoreline cover I'd bet. And with WP of that size there's obviously plenty of YOY production.

Raul reply :

Pretty place you got there.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote
You call this a pond and it sounds more like a small natural lake, is it man made? Does it have a dam or a means of controlling the water pool level; stream in and stream out?
Being only 6 feet deep with a muck bottom, decaying matter build up of sediment and dead vegetation, LMB survival may be marginal during the winter period when it freezes over. The springs would be where the bass must locate when the lake is iced over.

The best time to locate the bass is during the spawn. If you can't locate the bass or their beds, chances are few resident bass are in this pond/lake.

The only reason bass would venture out away from shoreline areas is to pursue baitfish, otherwise the bass should be shoreline cover oriented. Without pelagic bait fish, other than a few crappie, the bass are more than likely surviving on bottom dwellers, frogs and young of the year perch and crappie.

The flock of cormorants should be chased away if possible, they can devastate the fish population in a small lake/pond quickly.

WRB

PS; the only thing old about this reply is me. The cormorants wouldn't be a problem back in the day we no limit on the number we could shoot, the good old days.

I call it a pond simply because it is named Devol Pond. Whether it meets the actual definition of a pond I do not know. No stream in, but there is a swamp at the north end which drains into Sawdy pond. Not man made, though most of the rocks around the shore got there when farmers cleared rocks from the fields and dumped them into the pond.

As you can see from the photos in a prior post, most of those fields have reverted to woodland. The only fields remaining are on the east side of the pond.

It was once a smallmouth pond, until a tanker truck hauling largemouths to a nearby pond broke down on Sodom Road. A local farmer hooked his tractor to the rig, and towed it to the pond, where its contents were emptied.

The pond has always been a place for catching much larger than average fish for this area. I've caught several from this pond that were over five pounds, according to my Langley Deliar 50 -55 years ago. Also caught a 36 inch pickerel, and a 16 1/2 inch crappie back in that era. My dad won a season long "derby" at his workplace with a 7-14 smallmouth.

For whatever reason, surviving the winter does not seem to be a problem, since there are plenty of large (for this area) of bass that can be caught on a daily basis.

There are very few days when I do not catch a three pound largemouth. Somedays, they seem common.

My favorite photo on this pond. This one got away, but you can see its back in the photo, and the boil it produced which pushed some of the pads underwater.

And one that didn't get away.

My avatar was taken on this pond.

If you ever get out this way, it would be a pleasure to take you fishing on this pond/lake.

WRB reply :

Beautiful pond, cherish it. In small bodies of water with a diverse population of predator fish, the adult LMB can go where they want. If you are not catching many 1 to 2 lb bass, then recruitment or young of the year survival is low do to competition with the other predators...birds and fish. I agree that the young perch are more than likely the primary baitfish and the adult bass tend to cruise the outer weed lines and dominate the major ambush sites. Thank you for sharing the pictures, you have a wonderful place to fish.

If the ice can support you safely, try piling up some of the shore line rocks and move them out onto the ice at strategic spots, easy way to make rock piles.

WRB

Paul Roberts reply :

You do have a treasure there. I have a few of my own, and cherish every minute I have on them. How's that for fitting an 'Old Timers' thread.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote
You do have a treasure there. I have a few of my own, and cherish every minute I have on them. How's that for fitting an 'Old Timers' thread.

Same invite for you if you ever leave your haunts and head east for any reason. There are a couple of nice ponds in the Cape Cod area that allow me to do reasonably well, with both largemouth and smallmouth.

My favorite I'd avoid in the summer. Too many boaters of all kinds. But the others would lead you to believe the Cape was deserted, even in high season, Fourth of July to Labor Day.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote

Quote
You do have a treasure there. I have a few of my own, and cherish every minute I have on them. How's that for fitting an 'Old Timers' thread.

Same invite for you if you ever leave your haunts and head east for any reason. There are a couple of nice ponds in the Cape Cod area that allow me to do reasonably well, with both largemouth and smallmouth.

My favorite I'd avoid in the summer. Too many boaters of all kinds. But the others would lead you to believe the Cape was deserted, even in high season, Fourth of July to Labor Day.

Thanks, Tom.

I do make it back East every now and then, but not usually quite that far east. My wife has been salivating over a beach vacation, so I'll let you know if our summer plans allow me to actually take you up on that offer.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote

Quote

Quote
You do have a treasure there. I have a few of my own, and cherish every minute I have on them. How's that for fitting an 'Old Timers' thread.

Same invite for you if you ever leave your haunts and head east for any reason. There are a couple of nice ponds in the Cape Cod area that allow me to do reasonably well, with both largemouth and smallmouth.

My favorite I'd avoid in the summer. Too many boaters of all kinds. But the others would lead you to believe the Cape was deserted, even in high season, Fourth of July to Labor Day.

Thanks, Tom.

I do make it back East every now and then, but not usually quite that far east. My wife has been salivating over a beach vacation, so I'll let you know if our summer plans allow me to actually take you up on that offer.

I'm less than an hour from Cape Cod. If she wants a beach vacation, the Cape is tough to beat after Labor Day. The weather is still splendid, and the crowds are gone. The rates for rooms also drop considerably.

Horseneck Beach in Westport isn't too shabby either. It's at the entrance to Buzzards Bay which leads to the Cape Cod Canal.

The beach in the photos above and below is two miles long.

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