Which Is The Bigger Feed Up.....debate Inside. 2024

Brian Needham reply :

pre or post spawn.

I believe the pre spawn is.

My thoughts are they know they are not going to eat for a while and get fattened up for the process of making babies.

Why I think the post spawn is not: the fat girls are tired, scarred up, and lean. They have no energy, hence the reason we down size and slow post spawn. drop shot, shakey head, ect

Now our good friend 00 Mod leans towards the POST spawn is the bigger feed. with the believe they are hungry cause they haven't eaten in a while and looking for a buffet for chow.

so we are leaving it up to the board to settle this debate.

who is right? Me? Him? Both? neither?

I find this to be an excellent topic for debate and good points on both sides........ what do YOU think?

flyfisher reply :

Post spawn for me too. They aren't as easy to find but when you do they are easier to catch in my experience.

slonezp reply :

I think it's easier to catch post spawn fish. Whether it's because they're putting on the feed bag, or just no longer distracted by love, I don't know

Brian Needham reply :

interesting...

Does post spawn mean the same to everybody?

When I say post spawn I am talking that 1-2 week "recovery" period you always hear about........not summertime patterns.

I look forward to hearing more.

Catt reply :

The question should be pre-spawn vs Fall

But of your 2, pre-spawn hands down, during this time frame the bass have one thing in mind...food!

Pre-spawn starts long before many anglers are aware.

Post spawn the are not interested in feeding at all!

TBendBassin reply :

I have to agree with Catt pre spawn vs fall!! In east Texas it's hard to beat December January and February

tomustang reply :

Either time they're all TOTAL ANIMALS

Paul Roberts reply :

On 10/24/2013 at 9:45 AM, Brian Needham said:

interesting...

Does post spawn mean the same to everybody?

When I say post spawn I am talking that 1-2 week "recovery" period you always hear about........not summertime patterns.

I look forward to hearing more.

That was my question too. How does one define it and how is it recognized? Esp PS when one is fishing only weekends, and "prespawn" in the far south? Also, one should split out gender as well, esp post-spawn –where males remain aggressive and very shallow for an extended period and females ease out of being spawn minded.

Anyway, to keep it simple... "pre-spawn" is a longer period (although I break it up) than post-spawn. And pre-spawn bass are esp vulnerable, esp up north where vulnerability to over-harvest is the historical (prior to widespread C&R) reason why bass seasons were closed at that time, and not opening until after the spawn.

As I see it, "post-spawn" is a progression when (female) bass are transitioning from sex hormones to feed mediating hormones. Immediate "post-spawn" females are generally pretty low in energy. By the time they are feeding really well I’m apt to call it pre-summer, by definition. Some fish are in pre-summer, others are still “post-spawn”. Many males are tending beds, fry, and/or simply still very aggressive. If you are targeting males in your post-spawn catches (I don’t) then I guess you could consider post to be offering especially good numbers fishing.

Now, these are from my observations on small waters where bass do not have to migrate any real distance between spawning and summer locations. My fish are relatively easy to find and transitions are less locational than activity level. Your results may vary , but my guess is that similar behaviors are happening for each individual fish everywhere, but pan out somewhat differently location-wise in larger waters.

Bottom line I guess is, in pre-spawn EVERYBODY is feeding, when and where conditions and circumstances allow. Post-spawn is dicier (does that qualify as a word?).

Brian Needham reply :

On 10/24/2013 at 1:00 PM, tomustang said:
Either time they're all TOTAL ANIMALS

well played sir, well played.

00 mod reply :

OK, a little needs to be added to this, to fully understand the conversation we were having:

The question came up about the water temp at the last Road Trip. I remembered it being high 60's, which would put it AFTER the first wave of spawn, and probably after the second major wave. Needham remembered it being high 50"s and low 60's which would be early first wave.

Boats were averaging close to 50 fish per day and some over 100. I made the statement, that is why I love post spawn, BECAUSE THEY ARE SO EASY TO CATCH. Which sprung this question. Are they easier to catch pre or post spawn, NOT which is the bigger feed up. I still say they are easier to catch post spawn. I guess that is close to the same argument of bigger feed bag, but not really.

Now to the point of bigger feed up pre or fall- around here that is a no brainer.... FALL. Right now as we speak, water temps in the high 60's again and the shad are gathered in the millions in the backs of coves in 0-8 FOW and i is a constant chow down. So much that it is aggravating for so many anglers as to not being able to catch any because there is so much natural food. You will hook a fish that will puke up numerous shad on the way and in your boat. it is an absolute gorge.

By pre spawn, the shad kill has already happened, and yes I know they feed big pre as well, but it cannot simply be as much as the fall at least on the TVA lakes we fish the most.

Jeff

SPEEDBEAD. reply :

LOL, Jeff weren't we having the same type of discussion yesterday?

Brian Needham reply :

thanks for adding that Jeff as I didnt want to mis represent your stance or thoughts.

I think there are many varibles.

Road trip best I can remember first day was 59-60 up to 64 during the day. the last day was 62-63 up to 66-67 during the day, and both sets of temps varied from each end of the lake.

maybe someone that keeps a good log will chime in

another thing I based my thinking on was tournment weights..... much bigger sacks prespawn than post. Again, post being the 2 weeks after not in summertime pattern. but I maybe crazy will a failed memory

MCS reply :

On 10/24/2013 at 9:39 AM, slonezp said:
I think it's easier to catch post spawn fish. Whether it's because they're putting on the feed bag, or just no longer distracted by love, I don't know

x2 On this. It was deffinately my expereince here in FL, much easier to pull numbers of bigger fish post spawn, though they were slender and probably not as big as they were pre.

Dwight Hottle reply :

Catt nailed it as usual. I can attest from my experience on lake erie that prespawn smallies carry more weight than post spawn. It is a simple observation. Spring smallies are more fat in the spring because of egg development & chowing. If you have ever seen fully developed egg sacks removed form a female bass you would understand. Egg development combined with the need to add weight for the spawn means more feed up during prespawn.

A-Jay reply :

I'm going with Pre-spawn Feed up as my choice here.

I'm not certain when the Official pre-spawn begins or at what Exact point it starts but from ice out to the actual spawn the bass up here are plump and chewing.

A-Jay

Dwight Hottle reply :

A 22" smallie weighs more in the spring prespawn than in the fall. And they are easier to catch by the average angler. We have massive schools of bait in the spring some years mostly emeralds & smelt. When there is too much bait in the system spring or fall it does make the catching more difficult.

Brian Needham reply :

in talking with Jeff and seeing the responses here, I have narrowed it down to this:

1. perhaps it depends on how the debate is framed

a. big fish

b. numbers

c. numbers of big fish

2. are we saying when they feed more or easier to catch?

3. is it limited by region on the country.....got to go apples to apples in variables.

Dwight has large experience in fishing pre spawn, and I strongly lean in his direction. for A, B, and C.

The hardest part in the framing is the timing......... pre spawn begins at 48-52 degrees and on the beds at 58-64 degrees..........but how do we know when post has begun, do we ask each fish we catch and hope they tell the truth?

Over a 50,000+ acre lake like Pickwick/TVA chain, or Kissimmee chain, or Great Lakes many of these periods overlap and vary from lake end to lake end, cove to cove.

I would like to see opinions on how to frame this and a set of working variables going forward so when the pre spawn ramps up this winter/spring we can track it and have our own study albeit somewhat unscientific.

Discuss........

slonezp reply :

So is the question When is it easier to catch bass, or easier to catch a big bag? On my home water, it is much easier to catch numbers of fish shortly after the spawn. Bags are bigger, but numbers are down before the spawn. I know early Sturgeon Bay smallies fish differently than my home lake as do the TVA lakes, along with Bull, LOZ, and Table Rock. Maybe I should just move

00 mod reply :

The original conversation was numbers of fish. Period. Hence I said post spawn.

Then all of the other variables came into play.

Jeff

Brian Needham reply :

On 10/24/2013 at 11:12 PM, 00 mod said:

The original conversation was numbers of fish. Period. Hence I said post spawn.

Jeff

was it? I thought we went in circles for 15 minutes then got to the point........or maybe it was me going in circles

Captain Shane Procell reply :

My opinion is regionally based, and probably does not apply to bass fishing in general. My region is the Southern Glades (south of lake Okeechobee). The post spawn in my region is hands down the best time to get numbers and size. Besides the fact that everything with a mouth is on a hard feed.....the everglades water is dropping out fast. When the water drops, the fish and bait become concentrated in the canals and flats. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

slonezp reply :

On 10/24/2013 at 11:12 PM, 00 mod said:

The original conversation was numbers of fish. Period. Hence I said post spawn.

Then all of the other variables came into play.

Jeff

I'm on your side

Catt reply :

Question #1: all of the above, which describes pre-spawn.

Question #2: feed more & easier to catch, which describes pre-spawn.

Question #3: not limited to region, just takes place at different times.

Question #4: temperature is but one part of the equation & takes place sooner that most anglers believe.

PABASS reply :

From my experience I would say pre-spawn as well, the fish for me are easier to catch and its when I catch my biggest fish. Mater-o-fact I will only visit certain locations during pre-spawn because any other time is just a waste because the fish are harder to catch. The one location is a larger pond that only allows fishing from one side, jerkbaits in the late winter and early spring bags me the biggest fish in the pond. In the summer you cant get to them and in the fall they don't seem as aggressive. Its funny this is brought up because I have thought about this and wondered is it the fish or the fisherman? What I mean by that is around here I don't see many guys fishing ponds in late winter, so the bass had time to relax so to speak the fisherman's pressure is less, so are they easier to catch because of this? To me it might be both but more on the side of the fish are just much more aggressive.

Raul reply :

I don´t care about when they are more or less hungry, the difference in weight of a good sized momma in the 9 to 10 lbs can be one or more pounds of roe, so pre spawn you may catch a double digit while post spawn she may not be a double digit cuz all that roe is now baby bass.

KyakR reply :

I'd ask myself: when are the baitfish/forage scarcer (less competition for my lure)? When does temperature sunlight and hormone level force fish into the shallows where I can catch them most easily? And most of all the answer to the question "when are they easier to catch?" has to do with the expertise of the angler in finding them, knowing what to throw etc. For me, fall's best. But that doesn't mean the fish aren't feeding most!

KyakR reply :

Oops. I meant post-spawn

coryn h. fishowl reply :

Their unwillingness to ravenously devour everything in their path, (post spawn) and to feed in completely different areas than the spawning grounds could be an evolutionary adaptation to prevent the massacre of YOY bass fry. After all, if females went on a killing spree, no genes would passed on. Huh...interesting research topic at least.

Catt reply :

Post spawn is a peroid of time when the female bass has "spawned" out and left the spawning area and is not in a feeding mood. This leave the male bass the only "catchable" sex but his job is focused on protecting the nest so if your cast in not within the nest you will be skunked!

Brian Needham reply :

On 10/25/2013 at 9:30 PM, Catt said:
Post spawn is a peroid of time when the female bass has "spawned" out and left the spawning area and is not in a feeding mood. This leave the male bass the only "catchable" sex but his job is focused on protecting the nest so if your cast in not within the nest you will be skunked!

Catt , I want you to explain something to this ole boy from Arkansas.

I have seen you say the pre spawn patterns start before most realize it...... what conditions are you looking for: weather patterns(warming trend ?), photo period lenght, water temp, ect.?

Catt reply :

Brain, it's a combination of all of the above & more!

To many articles mention water temps so they average angler sits around watching the water temp. The problem with this is the temp they are watching is surface temp, I know of no bass that lives on the surface!

What I do know is at some point during late winter while fishing deep structure the bass simply disappear. These bass first move to points of feeder creeks & just inside feeder creeks. When checking water temps wirh a probe I get readings in the mid-40s.

Another key is weather stability, 3-4 days of stable weather be it cold clear, overcast, or what ever. Unstable weather will back the fish off by atleast one breakline.

Water depth also comes into play.

North Toledo Bend is up near Arkansas while the dam is some 120 miles south. The pre-spawn starts up north first which makes no sense until you understand the north lake is shallow , murky, & warmer. The south end is deeper, clear, & colder..

The only way to know when pre-spawn starts is to be on the water

WRB reply :

While I agree on most of what Catt has written on this thread, agree with pre spawn being the seasonal period the adult bass feed more than any other period, including fall. Pre spawn is the period when the adult bass move from their winter locations, the cold water winter seasonal period, to stage before spawning. The female bass may be developing eggs for months prior to pre spawn, however egg development alone doesn't signal a seasonal change. Bass movement/ location patterns in conjunction with warming water temps signal the bass are in transition from winter to pre spawn, similar to the summer to fall transition, when water cools.

In my region pre spawn starts when the water temps start to approach 55 degrees (not surface water, core water temps) and the bass have move up between 35' to 20' on major and primary secondary points. Depending on our weather, this movement starts to occurs between late Dec to early Feb in SoCal, about 4 to 8 weeks before they start cruising the spawning flats.

Post spawn females are in poor physical condition, some die, so they are not feeding heavily, they are recuperating.

Juvenile bass feed heavily during the summer period, this time is critical growth period if these bass will grow to adult size bass.

Tom

Brian Needham reply :

thanks guys.......now here is the new question:

since temps are not the leading indicator, core water temps are........ do the core water temps warm faster or slower than the surface? we all know water holds heat, but does the water at depth "get" its heat only from the surface?

hmmmmmm........

Dwight Hottle reply :

Surface temps always cool & warm faster because the have more exposure to heat/sun and cold air temps. The core water is insulated by the mass it sits in or is surrounded by. The core water temps always move up or down more slowly than the surface. Our local paper publishes water temp daily from 12 fow down where the local water pickup for city water supply comes from. My surface water temps always exceed that temp up or down depending upon sunlight or cold wind/air temps. So yes the core gets its heat & cold from the surface but also the shoreline, current and wind/waves effect. The shallower the water the more effect the environment has on it because it has less insulation.

That's my story & i'm sticking to it.

Catt reply :

Clear water warms faster the off colored but it loses heat faster at night. Off colored water has particals floating in it, these patricals hold heat.

The water heats from the surface down based on the fact the surface gets hit first.

Not sure what you want there!

Tom, you hit on part of but missed it

The stage at which the eggs are plays a role with the female, it increases urges to feed & spawn.

Brian Needham reply :

between Dwight, Catt and WRB, its much clearer now.

gonna buy a rope and thermometer

PABASS reply :

Here is my question about the magical "spawn" temperature mark, in south FL does the water temps even go down to 55? I thought I read somewhere 55-65 and this depends on location, for example in PA I could see the lower 60s would trigger spawning migration and this would make sense that in FL 62+ would trigger the same migration, no?

slonezp reply :

I have caught and fileted bass, in northern IL, with eggs in them, in November, before first ice. Does egg development start before prespawn, or are these bass in prespawn 5-6 months before the spawn? Or could these be leftover from a female that never spawned?

Brian Needham reply :

PABASS.......... it is my personal belief that's when the photo length period factor kicks in.

Much like humans with the time change. I know me, I can tell when the "fall back" of the clocks USED to happen before they changed it. I am very tired for 2-3 weeks until the "new" fall back occurs.......

Point is fish know this too, as it is instinct to know when the daylight hours are long enough. The eggs need certain amount sunlight to "hatch".

my reasoning is here in Arkansas we can have 80 degree days for a week in Feb, but that don't mean the spawn is happening.

JMO, as I am learning more and more everyday about patterns and the science behind it. OR at least trying to.

J Francho reply :

Fall. Bait weighs more than eggs.

WRB reply :

On 10/26/2013 at 1:47 AM, J Francho said:
Fall. Bait weighs more than eggs.

Prey and eggs weigh the more, pre spawn. How many record class bass have been caught in the fall....none.

Tom

Catt reply :

After the first movement from deep water structure I don't pay much attention to temps. By this time I'm zoned in where they are headed & which breaklines they be using to get there. Since '72 I've followed the pre-spawn on Toledo Bend & what's fun is I can start around mid-Jan go through late April fishing pre-spawn & spawn.

J Francho reply :

On 10/26/2013 at 2:00 AM, WRB said:

Prey and eggs weigh the more, pre spawn. How many record class bass have been caught in the fall....none.

Tom

I don't recall this being a thread about record fish, but what is the bigger "feed up." If it's the latter, it's fall, at least for northern states that actually have a winter. The fish are fatter. If we're talking record size fish, then sure - spring/pre spawn is a no brainer.

WRB reply :

Getting into thermal dynamics and understanding the heat transfer of conduction, convection and radiation thermal effects of heating or cooling of lake water is a complex study. Water volume, clarity play a roll; deeper water by volume requires more energy to affect heat transfer. Clear water with little or no suspended particulates to heat or cool transfer heat slower than water with particulates. The sun heats water via thermal radiation, the earth by thermal conduction, the core water column heats bad cools via thermal convection, all 3 play a roll. Streams or rivers flowing tend to mix the water temperature, this water flowing into a lake is usually similar to the lakes surface temps, unless the surface is frozen. Water coming up through the earth, springs, tend to be the same temperature as the earth the water is flowing through (about 60 degrees). Spring water cools warmer water in the summer, heats colder water in the winter.

The ideal water temps for bass is about 70 degrees, they can tolerate about 40 to 85 degrees depending on DO level.

Tom

WRB reply :

Feeding and weight gain go together. Bass are cold blooded animals, their metabolism, the rate they burn calories, is controlled by water temperature. In the summer and fall the water is warmer and bass gain weight per calorie slower because the are more active burning calories chasing prey. During the pre spawn the water temps are colder, bass need less food to maintain weight, however they are driven by biological need to store the maximum amount of food so they can survive not eating during the spawn. For this reason bass are at the heavier weight and most active feeding period.

Calling the pre spawn the time bass are developing eggs is like calling the post spawn the time period before bass develop eggs for females or melt for males; pre spawn summer, fall, winter, spring. I will respectfully disagree on that theory.

Tom

Brian Needham reply :

actually Francho the debate was PRE or POST spawn, though we have moved somewhat from the intial intent....

good info all around

J Francho reply :

If those are the only choices, then pre. But they are fatter in the fall. The biggest fish are more catchable, as Tom (WRB) mentioned during pre and actual spawn.

Paul Roberts reply :

Wow this threads all over the place. Understandable bc the subject is not simple. The deeper you look, the deeper you find things are. Science is more often about refining questions than coming up with answers.

On 10/26/2013 at 1:33 AM, slonezp said:
I have caught and fileted bass, in northern IL, with eggs in them, in November, before first ice. Does egg development start before prespawn, or are these bass in prespawn 5-6 months before the spawn? Or could these be leftover from a female that never spawned?

Gonads begin development in the late summer and fall for spring breeders. Winter just slows that development. Inc temp acts to inc rate of development. Photoperiod plays a role as does lipid intake in final development. IT's possible to get spring spawners to come ripe in fall and is even known to happen (rarely) in the wild under certain circumstances.

Brian Needham reply :

On 10/26/2013 at 9:22 AM, Paul Roberts said:
Wow this threads all over the place.

Paul forgive me, as you don't know me very well........this is normal everyday conversation! LOL

you got to go off on a few tangents to find out what the main idea REALLY was! hahahah

Paul Roberts reply :

Sure is a lot of ground being furrowed here. I understand the tangents. I'm apt to say, anywhere within such a conversation concerning the nature of complex cyclical events: "We can go anywhere from here." Definitions become important. And the closer I look, the more I end up splitting hairs

A great time for making great catches including some big numbers IS "after the spawn" if one defines the spawn as still seeing some males shallow and guarding fry, and some (often little ones) even setting up late beds (without much of an audience often). In all but the smallest waters those bass done spawning have left the shallows and may collect on ... anything they can relate to, before vegetation kicks in and summer patterns related to it, develop. These pre-summer fish (as I call them) can collect up heavy on particular structure (or cover) pieces. I know a guy who fishes larger waters with much denser bass popns than my waters and he has had runs of 40, 50, and 60 mature bass from one such spot! If you miss such spots even by a little, or don't know specifically what to look for, you can cast to some sparsely populated water or just holding late tending males. There are some other "post-spawn" feeding opportunities that the mature bass take advantage of on the tail end of 'the spawn" when males can still be seen tending, in my, and many other, waters too.

But...again I call this pre-summer activity. I see post-spawn as a pretty short window when actual egg dropping is not happening anymore and males are tending eggs and then fry. Some females are still hanging about spawning areas, but getting jilted by now tending males. After this they go on to feeding, and I call this pre-summer. The word "spawn" is not needed then -even though males are still seen tending -probably the sight most anglers label "the spawn". (In fact, I've even wondered whether "post-spawn" is a real period. I put this in parentheses bc maybe/likely in larger water bodies than I frequent, transitions take longer. My questioning this may just be an artifact of the small waters I fish -the "post-spawn" females and males getting to feeding virtually right away, albeit the females low in energy at first.)

Such females are pretty low energy at the tail end of the "spawn". Many are still willing to spawn but most males are occupied with eggs or fry and they'll attack a still amorous female like an intruder.

Here's a post I made a while back describing the capture of what I see as a "post-spawn" female, in my waters:

Here's a pic of a post-spawn female that was hanging around a guarding male that wouldn't let her near. Sight fishing can tell you a lot about what's going on -why we don't catch them all. It isn't easy to make artificial food look real, or appear catchable -jiving with the given fish's energy level. This female, like most post-spawn females, would not chase so I had to drop and swim the tube just ahead of her. Too far ahead of her and no go. Too much vegetation to "kill" the bait in –no go. The swim too fast for her to commit –no go. She took a plastic craw-tube, gingerly, but I missed and then she avoided it. I finally got her on a standard tube with a perfectly timed fall and swim. Now I could see her. Imagine doing this blind, just working a shoreline! We miss a lot of potentially catchable fish. Baits that work slowly, or stay in place, have the best chance of getting bit.

FishinDaddy reply :

On 10/26/2013 at 1:29 AM, PABASS said:
Here is my question about the magical "spawn" temperature mark, in south FL does the water temps even go down to 55? I thought I read somewhere 55-65 and this depends on location, for example in PA I could see the lower 60s would trigger spawning migration and this would make sense that in FL 62+ would trigger the same migration, no?

I fish mostly central Florida, Orlando and south. Our "PRE" starts some time in December and our "POST" ends some time in May. Because most of these lakes are less than 20' deep, our water temps are drastically effected by air temps. With frequent air temp swings of 40 degrees or more we do have water temps down to the high 40's and up to the mid 60's during these months.

The most productive fishing times for us are when;

1) The weather has been stable for 3-4 days

2) The water is warming toward 65 degrees

3) Approaching the full moon

Unfortunately the weather is never stable for more than a week with brutal cold fronts and high NE winds coming through often. This cuts the actual "great" fishing days out of the five months down to 4-5 days and the odds of that being on a weekend is slim.

WRB reply :

Almost everything comes under a bell (Gaussian) curve where 10% on both ends represent the minority and 80% in the middle of the curve represent the majority. When we say the pre spawn, spawn and post spawn, we mean the majority of the bass behave in this manner. You could say the early and later bass are in the 10% minority category. The "spawn" is the time period when bass are spawning, laying eggs and egg laying for the majority happens over a 1 to 2 week period, once the female makes her egg laying run. How long eggs take to hatch depends on water temps; longer in water 60 degrees, shorter in water 68 degrees, this affects the male guarding those eggs more than females laying them. In most lakes it takes about 2 months to complete the spawning cycle for the majority of the bass. Because the spawn doesn't happen all at 1 time, there are waves of pre spawn, spawn, post spawn bass mixed together to complicate the definition further, however easy for the angler to tell the difference; pre spawn female bass are in deeper water, fat and full of energy, spawner's and post spawner's are not.

Tom

Catt reply :

For the sake of discussion

We have lake A & 100% of the bass were in pre-spawn.

Then we have lake B & 100% of the bass were in post spawn.

In which lake would you expect to limit out with having to struggle?

FishinDaddy reply :

I think "A" would be the easiest limit and the biggest bag. Bucks guarding beds would be easy pickins and you might catch a few big girls just outside.

Brian Needham reply :

great way to make it simple Catt!!! I like simple!

Paul Roberts, I am going have to read that again......LOTS of info there. Thanks!

this thread has got nuggets all through it.

Paul Roberts reply :

To simplify my last post: What defines "post-spawn" and when does it end?

Brian Needham reply :

Don't get me wrong Paul, your post was awesome!

Jeff and I had the same question/debate when speaking of variables.

we asked ourselves........ if pre spawn happens 10-12 degrees before the spawn, does post spawn (defined as period before summer pattern) last 10-12 degrees after egg laying? or SHOULD it, in context of debate?

without context within the variables, its just a never ending circle........for me at least, it would be nice to hammer down some absolutes to begin somewhat of a "case study" within our own waters.

Catt reply :

On 10/27/2013 at 6:26 AM, Paul Roberts said:
To simplify my last post: What defines "post-spawn" and when does it end?

Post-spawn: the female has laid all her eggs & has pulled back to first or second break line.

When does it end: two days after you leave

Paul Roberts reply :

I'm headed outta town. Will be away from almost everything electronic for a week. Will be interested to see where this thread ends up.

Catt reply :

You like it Paul & you know you do

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Which Is The Bigger Feed Up.....debate Inside. 2024

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