Why do we still see vertical holds with large fish? 2024

Hooligan reply :

With as much information is out there about the damage they can do to fish, not just big fish, why do we still see so many people cranking those fish by the lower jaw and hoisting them around?

It's something that bugs me. I see it so often from forums to weigh ins. I try very hard not to do that to a fish, sometimes there is no other way to land a fish, sometimes it just happens. What shouldn't happen, though, is the hero shot with the fish out of the water, being held only by the lower jaw. Much less, that fish's weight should never be levered on the jaw. There's such a huge rate of post-release mortality due to such actions.

Some good words of advice on the subject:

http://www.nwtigermuskies.com/horizontal.html

http://myfwc.com/docs/Newsroom/Photo...ines_notes.pdf

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/v...lunker/handle/

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Default.aspx?tabid=18624

If one of the top trophy programs in the US recommends it, can it be all bad?

b.Lee reply :

I appreciate the thought you are trying to get across.

But Muskie are a much larger species of fish, so I could see. Second, I think a hook in its mouth and us trying pull it in let alone in water is much more stressful then the 20 seconds it takes me to lip it, look at it, and put it back in the water.

Your first link is about Muskie, and at the very end quote, "As I said, I can't speak to bass, but for pike or muskies, it's a pretty clear cut case. Given the high potential for negative effects on the health and survivability of released fish when they're held vertically, there's really no excuse to do it."

As with everything studies are studies, even if they are conducted for bass. Someone else in the world is going to refute it. I am neither for it or against it, but if it were such an impact I am sure B.A.S.S and FLW would have initiated such a rule.

Your second and third link does not work.

Your fourth link mentions using a jaw gripping device, which I see no difference in lipping it. So I don't see where you are going with it.

- Blee

brushhoggin reply :

Quote
With as much information is out there about the damage they can do to fish, not just big fish, why do we still see so many people cranking those fish by the lower jaw and hoisting them around?
It's something that bugs me. I see it so often from forums to weigh ins. I try very hard not to do that to a fish, sometimes there is no other way to land a fish, sometimes it just happens. What shouldn't happen, though, is the hero shot with the fish out of the water, being held only by the lower jaw. Much less, that fish's weight should never be levered on the jaw. There's such a huge rate of post-release mortality due to such actions.

Some good words of advice on the subject:

http://www.nwtigermuskies.com/horizontal.html

http://myfwc.com/docs/Newsroom/Photo...ines_notes.pdf

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/v...lunker/handle/

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Default.aspx?tabid=18624

If one of the top trophy programs in the US recommends it, can it be all bad?

nevermind settin the hook and tearing tissue around the lips and mouth or puncturing the brain. :

Taylor Fishin 4 life reply :

they need to do a test on this and see if it really brakes the jaw i am guilty of just grabbing them by the lip but i would like some1 to test this with a xray machine

BigEbass reply :

I have only caught a couple bass over 5 lbs so far in my first 2 years of fishing - I had not really thought a whol lot about this when handling my fish, I hold them vertically - what I had seen on fishing shows and I believe in Homer Circle's book was advice to support their weight more so if they are bigger....If there is a true science to this showing higher mortality with catch and release bass I will gladly alter my handling as needed. I try not to touch the bass very much in general - I had read somewhere that their protective coating is important as well....so is there some scientific consensus on how we should do things? Thanks everyone!

BigEbass reply :

If that big bass in my phot ended up dying because of my handing I would be sad

Smiths.R reply :

I've been told my whole life to touch a bass as little as possible. As the previous poster stated, they have a protective "slime" and is removed when they are touched. I would think so long as you don't try to hold them horizontally by the jaw, you're not doing that much damage. Perhaps I'm wrong though. It's happened before!!

fourbizz reply :

Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.

How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

BigEbass reply :

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Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.
How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

Hmm, good question - we shouldnt weight them

J Francho reply :

I measure my fish with a displacement lazer beam.

Hooligan reply :

Odd they work for me.

In regards to the first link, there are multi-species guys here, too. I suppose that's the only reason I added that in. A friend of mine is a biologist and we've had the conversation over and over again. Subluxation is a common issue. THere was a study done on post release mortality of tourney released fish (particularly black bass) and it tracked fish that were held vertically and those that were held horizontally. There was a remarkable increase in mortality on fish that were held vertically.

I'll try to locate the full study, all I have access to is the abstract and that's perfectly pointless to use.

I'm stumped as to why the links work for me, though.

Hooligan reply :

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Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.
How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

Weigh the fish in the net bag, subtract the weight of the net...

BigEbass reply :

But have they done a mortality study in using this weighing method - would that not hypothetically do more damage to their protective layer - putting them in a bag? Just a thought - you could be absolutely right - if so I will take more caution....

Hooligan reply :

Actually there have been tremendous numbers of studies done in regard to net bags and the material used therein.

http://www.frabill.com/about-frabill/press-room/conservation-nets/

The Conservation series nets from Frabill are getting more and more use from guys across the board. It's without a doubt one of the least damaging methods of safely landing and handling fish that's currently out there.

shimmy reply :

pointless argument. If tournament anglers are told to no longer lip them by the jaw and it is demonstrated on big stage events like the bassmaster classic etc, then it would probably be due to some serious concrete evidence. But, they don't and never will because it is sheer speculation. Since they are the ensign of the sport, they would probably know best. Since it is not an issue and never will, it's a pointless argument. Now if a fish is out of water for 5 minutes, and getting it's slime rubbed off raw, then that would be a problem.

Way more important issues at hand. First, anglers not abiding by the slot limit, 2nd anglers keeping fish without a license, and last of all tournament fishing which is far more impacting on a lake than grabbin a fish by the jaw.

Just simply a silly argument

Hooligan reply :

Explain to me how nurturing a resource, in any manner capable, and reducing the overall mortality is silly? It's not an argument, really, it's a suggestion about the way we anglers handle fish. (Yeah, that's right, I said we pot & kettle, you see...)

If tournament anglers are the sports representatives, then we're the ones that need to pressure them into being more cautious of the way they're handling fish during the weigh ins. (Which, btw, has changed, in some places dramatically see here: http://www.kwcbass.com/kwc_bass_con_weighin.htm )

I refuse to see any issue that affects the overall conservation of our sport as "silly", particularly one in which it is directly impacted by conscientious anglers and participants at the very grass roots.

There's a preponderance of information out there about utilizing O2 aeration, for instance. In the same sentences that these biologists are talking about reducing overall mortality, they're saying proper handling of those fish. Fred Harris, Mark Olliver, Phil Durocher, for instance, are all proponents of proper handling.

Texas Sharelunker, for instance: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/visitorcenters/tffc/sharelunker/handle/ "Hold the fish vertically by the lower lip while it is in the water so that the total weight of the fish doesn't rest on the lower jaw." Notice that "in the water" part so that "the total weight of the fish doesn't rest on the lower jaw."

I mean, hey, if there's a biologist from TX that manages the single greatest reproductive genetics program in the US saying even that it might be remotely harmful to fish, why wouldn't you listen to them? Why not take EVERY measure to make certain that fish is going to live to be caught again and again.

=Matt 5.0= reply :

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Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.
How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

Poke a hole through the tail. Insert scale hook through new hole. Hang fish vertically by the tail. See what falls out of it's mouth. Bonus.

fishfordollars reply :

My fish are not large enough to hurt so no issue here.

Hooligan reply :

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My fish are not large enough to hurt so no issue here.

Now you're just being modest.

Md reply :

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There's such a huge rate of post-release mortality due to such actions.

I definitely agree that it is ALL of our jobs here to take care of our resources- be it the fish, the water, or the surrounding lands, etc. But, this statement needs some clarification or documentation. Statements without proof are just elevator music or background noise and do nothing to help the cause.

slonezp reply :

Quote

Quote
Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.
How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

Poke a hole through the tail. Insert scale hook through new hole. Hang fish vertically by the tail. See what falls out of it's mouth. Bonus.

Bad Idea. If you let the lead shot fall out, you may lose a few ounces.

=Matt 5.0= reply :

Quote

Quote

Quote
Every single fish I have caught over 10 I have held vertically by the jaw. I will continue to do so. It does no harm.
How you plan on weighing that fish without hanging it by the jaw?

Poke a hole through the tail. Insert scale hook through new hole. Hang fish vertically by the tail. See what falls out of it's mouth. Bonus.

Bad Idea. If you let the lead shot fall out, you may lose a few ounces.

Tungsten.

Hooligan reply :

Quote

Quote
There's such a huge rate of post-release mortality due to such actions.

I definitely agree that it is ALL of our jobs here to take care of our resources- be it the fish, the water, or the surrounding lands, etc. But, this statement needs some clarification or documentation. Statements without proof are just elevator music or background noise and do nothing to help the cause.

Research and solid numbers such as these? http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

In each of these, the delayed mortality is related directly to situations in which the fish were mishandled. I'm sure that one could say it was any number of things that added to the overall stress. Yet, what remains at the heart of the matter, and the heart of the matter in regards to overall handling, is that ig we can do anything to reduce that number, shouldn't we?

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, or arguing with anyone about it. It's something that I really feel should be brought to light and we should all strive to get a better grasp on. There are those that are 100% confident that they've released a live fish with no damage every time, and there's nothing anyone will say or do to change that. Then, there are biologists that tell us that what we've been doing for years isn't the way we should be doing it. The angler's that listen to the biologists or do their own research become greater stewards for that fact alone. Clear as mud?

There are any number of ways that a fish can be damaged when we're landing and releasing them. Again, I ask, why not make every effort to minimize that chance. I'm going to try to get this link to work again, as there's a tremendous amount of information that is valid in the bass world, as well as fishing in general.

http://myfwc.com/docs/Newsroom/PhotoGuidelines_notes.pdf

Nine Miler reply :

I think your argument makes sense, Hooligan. It is well presented, too.

I always immediately release fish after a quick photo. (I don't have a live-well on my boat) But I always grab that fish by the mouth and hold it up for the photo. I notice others grab by the mouth and support by the belly with the other hand. In some cases the belly support looks safer to the fish, and in others, it doesn't look so good.

Do you know the proper way to cradle the fish?

I have a tendency to fish a lot of treble hook lures, but I still do not use a net. I had always just tried to be careful putting my hand in there. Recently I learned that cradling a fish under the belly while landing will pacify it. I think this allows me to take the fish out of the water in a manner that is safer for me and the fish.

Thanks for the info, I think many of us can take some good info from this.

HunterLake reply :

Okay, simple as this......

Trying to hold a big fish horizontal by the lip causes harm:

Holding a big fish vertical by the lip does no harm:

Bassn Blvd reply :

The lake I fish holds at least 3 tournaments a month. The weigh-ins are at the same spot and I would estimate 50-125 bass are released each tourny after weigh in and I have yet to see ANY bass floating belly up as a result of holding them vertical. To me, it looks like holding them by their jaw horizontally without supporting the belly would cause more harm.

Hooligan reply :

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Okay, simple as this......
Trying to hold a big fish horizontal by the lip causes harm:

Holding a big fish vertical by the lip does no harm:

No, see, both of those holds are prone to cause a problem. Simple physics would state that a vertical hold is placing the fish in a position that is unnatural in regards to anatomy. They don't have anything to support internal organs in that manner.

A horizontal hold, as in the first picture, is prone to cause damage to the jaw and spinal column. The fish is wholly unsupported in the rear of the body and belly.

Move the hand that isn't on the fish to the belly, support it and take weight off the jaw and you've got a correct hold.

Hooligan reply :

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The lake I fish holds at least 3 tournaments a month. The weigh-ins are at the same spot and I would estimate 50-125 bass are released each tourny after weigh in and I have yet to see ANY bass floating belly up as a result of holding them vertical. To me, it looks like holding them by their jaw horizontally without supporting the belly would cause more harm.

That's sort of the point. Correct handling. support the jaw, the lower body, and you have a correct hold that's far less likely to cause damage and undue additional stress.

Also, in regards to not seeing belly floaters, there are many mentions of those fish that suffer from delayed mortality as being "sinkers." It's referenced in one of the previous links. Lastly, some of the mortality isn't immediate delay. In cases it's a month or more.

fourbizz reply :

According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.

That is good enough for me.

Hooligan reply :

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According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.
That is good enough for me.

It's extremely easy to get into a he said, he said. I'm not going to do that here.

fourbizz reply :

So, when confronted by facts and opinions contrary to your own, you are going to disregard them and continue spouting rhetoric?

Mattlures reply :

Well that bottom pic was of Mike Long. Lets see he has caught about 60 over 15lbs and hundreds over 10. We never find any of his fish dead or hurt from him holding them like that. I also hold them like that and have never had a sigle problem. If we were killing all these fish from holding them like that we would find them. Actualy we do find them, when we catch them again.

I have also managed a few private ponds years ago. I have never killed a single fish from holding it verticle. As long as you dont tourqe the jaw the fish will be totaly fine.

Taylor Fishin 4 life reply :

how is it tho if they claim they break the jaw then how is it when i release some of my fish 6 to 9 pounders that they seem the close there mouth so easily and swim off now mabye bass have super powers but how do they close there mouth again if their jaws are broken?

cart7t reply :

I'm likely to keep my larger bass in a horizontal position after catching.

Taylor Fishin 4 life reply :

rofl

tyrius. reply :

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No, see, both of those holds are prone to cause a problem. Simple physics would state that a vertical hold is placing the fish in a position that is unnatural in regards to anatomy. They don't have anything to support internal organs in that manner.

It may be unnatural, but how it is harmful? It's unnatural for me to stand on my head, but I'm not hurt by it.

And what are you talking about in regards to "support internal organs"? Why do they need to be "supported"? A bass can easily swim vertically through the water to say strike a topwater lure. If a vertical position was harmful to them then how could they swim that way?

BigEbass reply :

It would seem we have reached an endpass IMO

On the one hand hooligan presents some data that would be a source of concern.

On the other hand, we have heard from folks like mattlures who deal with these giants really regularly it would seem - also I recently joined BBZ and all of those guys verticle hold at times it would seem including Bill Siemantel - although I dont think they torque the Jaw. So alot of anectdotal evidence that is also compelling.

I too fish local private pay ponds with my neighbor regularly and have never seen one of or any of those fish die, and if they did I would think at least they would float to the top?

I can totally understand Hooligan's concern and if there is certainty about his concern then I will do whatever it takes - actually I did not know about the net studies, I prefer to net my bigger fish to avoid injury to myself and to avoid losing it at the boat - so that was good to know.

But am I not going to hold my fish anymore vertically....I am left conflicted here I suppose - usually I do not hold anectdotal evidence to the highest level, but if holding them this way caused a significantly greater mortality, I cannot see how that would be so frequently missed by the entirity of the fishing community? Perhaps I am naive, but that point seems compelling....

But I will keep an open mind Hooligan and I appreciate your thoughts and concerns

J Francho reply :

Impasse...

Personally, I think its all much ado about nothing. I see guys doing things way worse to bass before releasing than holding them up by their jaw. Besides, most catch dinks, and even my personal best is a dink by others' standards. The shot of Mike Long with the vertical hold doesn't hurt them. Plain and simple. Nothing has been offered in this thread that clearly states otherwise. Its one of those things....we've been catching and releasing bass for decades. You'd think we'd see some real effects by now. But we are still catching big bass.

Matt Fly reply :

Cali boys gotta good point, we saw Dottie hung by a rope with a big hole in her jaw, hung vertical on a scale many times and she survived all those years she was caught and weighed and photo graphed.

I do think if you do your part and minimize the amount of time, you will be less likely to stress the fish.

I don't see how it hurts to support the belly and take all precautions prior to weighin the fish for a few seconds.

Bank fishing and walking makes for limited gear you can carry, you can only do so much to be prepared for that day when you catch your PB.

Do what you can when you can, thats what most would like to see when it comes to bass conservation.

Hooligan reply :

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So, when confronted by facts and opinions contrary to your own, you are going to disregard them and continue spouting rhetoric?

No, quite the opposite. There was no factual basis there, unlike in the represented articles.

I also know a fisheries biologist or ten, some are close friends. Every, single one of them would tell you that a vertical hold is incorrect. Every one of them would recommend a horizontal hold with support for the front and belly.

In regards the the physics of why it's unnatural; a fish has different gravity in water than in air. More pressure is placed on internal structures when held vertically than when they swim "vertically" the water is a great deal of the way in which the form is supported. Take away the water, and everything changes.

Hooligan reply :

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I'm likely to keep my larger bass in a horizontal position after catching.

I lol'd.

bassman31783 reply :

I understand your argument & wanting people to get on board by showing us "proof" of the mortality rates of fish held horizontally vs vertically. I also commend you on wanting to do something that "might" help the species as a whole. However it's just not going to sway many people. Especially when you have pics of these huge bass held vertically by big bass hunters & tournament pros. Better yet when you have multiple pics of Dottie being held vertically in pics over a span of years. Clearly it didn't hurt her getting held vertically multiple times & she was perhaps the largest bass to ever swim.

It's kind of like these TRUTH commercials to stop smoking. Although really good commercials backed up by broad facts, they just aren't going to make every smoker quite smoking by having a hundred people fall over in the middle of an intersection pretending to be dead. ;D

Hooligan reply :

You know, the way I look at it is this, if one person changes the way they handle fish, or if one person even thinks of it, then it's worth the effort.

I'm not trying to sway the masses, I'm not trying to make anyone angry, I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot or otherwise. Heck, I'm not trying to do anything but to get people to think about it. That's all.

I'm just as guilty as the next guy about not being perfect. If I recall correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, there's only been one of those guys in history, and it isn't KVD.

bass syco reply :

if you are really, truly concerned about fish,

don't fish.

One less guy on the lake to me.

Dan: reply :

Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

SPEEDBEAD. reply :

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According to my fisheries biologist friend, who studied largemouth growth in school, and is a better big bass fisherman than anyone in this thread, vertical is fine.
That is good enough for me.

LOL, SP doesnt know anything at all....dont kid yourself. :

Hooligan reply :

The info from Muskies Inc deals with anatomy in general, it's a page referenced pretty heavily regardless of species. You're correct about some of the others, it sort of got off on a tangent about handling in general, including delayed mortality due to inadequate dissolved O2, again, dealing with overall handling of the fish. (The three that you referenced are part of that tangent.)

The Florida Fish and Wildlife page is an annotated bibliography sporting tremendous amounts of information on handling. (as well as other subjects.) The ShareLunker page is another that has various links including video of TFW's recommendations for handling fish.

It happens that you choose three that were on the subject but a different topic.

For the record, though the anatomy between muskies and bass are different, the end results are the same.

Dan: reply :

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The info from Muskies Inc deals with anatomy in general, it's a page referenced pretty heavily regardless of species. You're correct about some of the others, it sort of got off on a tangent about handling in general, including delayed mortality due to inadequate dissolved O2, again, dealing with overall handling of the fish. (The three that you referenced are part of that tangent.)
The Florida Fish and Wildlife page is an annotated bibliography sporting tremendous amounts of information on handling. (as well as other subjects.) The ShareLunker page is another that has various links including video of TFW's recommendations for handling fish.

It happens that you choose three that were on the subject but a different topic.

For the record, though the anatomy between muskies and bass are different, the end results are the same.

Says who? You still have provided no evidence that proves holding fish vertically is likely to hurt them. All you have provided is a couple links that say to some extent that it is probably best to hold fish with a hand under their belly. (BTW, one of those sources also says that fish should be sedated before being weighed....come on!)

It could very well be the case that holding a fish with a hand under it's belly minimizes stress, but even IF that is the case, I do not believe that the difference in the amount of stress caused to the fish is significant enough to even worry about it...Like I said before, bass are tough. If you really want to do all you can to prevent mortality, make a thread about ending tournaments. Oxygen depletion seems to be the most realistic threat here.

For the record, I would have examined the other links but two of them do not work (from the first post) and one is about muskies which have completely different anatomies so I'm not accepting that as relevant considering they have a completely different distribution of weight than bass.

Randall reply :

I see and hold hundreds of fish like this every year on small lakes. Many of them are big fish and I have Never seen one harmed by it if the jaw isn't used as a lever.

I have found fish that died from an infection caused by a wound from my or others hooks. Fish that died from ingesting senkos and big worms. Fish that died from being in an improper livewell or a livewell that wasn't used correctly.

Also when I see big dead fish I usually go to check them out to see if I can figure out what killed them and if I can match it to a fish I have caught. The usual things that gets them is choking on a bluegill, a bait broken off , a senko, brush hog or big worm they can't pass or a hook left in after being gut hooked. But, I have never seen a fish with a broken or injured jaw.

Also you should see how hard I will pull a fish across grassbeds in summer hooked in the lower jaw. Or, how hard I will pull a fish down if it tries to jump with my swimbait attached to it's lower jaw. If that don't break thier jaw nothing will.

The truth is I don't see anything to cause me to change my mind and until I do I will not change. I think it's the best way to hold a fish if done properly.

J Francho reply :

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If I recall correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, there's only been one of those guys in history, and it isn't KVD.

Actually, that was his mother...Mary.

roadwarrior reply :

There seems to be a discrepancy between

unsubstantiated theory and real life experience.

I think I'll go with Randall's observations as a

professional fisherman.

8-)

Tin reply :

What's a bibliography?

b.Lee reply :

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Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.
http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

No one obviously read my post which was second. i commented on each link.

Dan: reply :

Quote

Quote
Did anyone even read Hooligan's posted "evidence"? I have a feeling nobody actually looked at them because someone would have said something.
http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

https://www.tntech.edu/fish/bass/

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/Reservoir/blackbass/livebass2.pdf

None of these articles say very much about the physical handling of fish. They are mostly about managing dissolved oxygen content in livewells and during weigh-ins. NONE of them attribute deaths to holding fish vertically and the last one actually says: "GRASP FISH BY LOWER JAW ONLY, HOLDING THEM VERTICALLY"

Between those articles, the link about muskies, and the dead links, I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence here at all.

I'm inclined to believe that the jaw thing is kind of in the same boat as the slime coat thing. I think one person thought "oh, well there are ways to handle fish that might be less likely to injure them" and then people talk about it and it spreads as if it is absolutely necessary to hold the fish like a baby and not to let anything touch it's slime coat unless it's a wet hand. In reality, I think both of these tips MIGHT be marginally beneficial to the fish, but not nearly to the extent that most people think. Bass are tough. I think it'll be ok if we don't handle them like newborn babies.

No one obviously read my post which was second. i commented on each link.

Yeah, that's true for the first batch of links he gave, but I was also talking about the second batch that was later posted.

boneil reply :

sounds like you're arguing about global warming.some scientist say this while others say that. There may never be concrete evidence to prove one way or another. Personally, I think there is a higher mortality rate in bass that are kept and eaten.

D4u2s0t reply :

I, like just about everyon else, have NEVER seen a fish die due to holding it by the jaw... i've seen fish die from being guthooked, held out of the water too long, dropped on the ground, thingsl ike that. But never because it was picked up by the jaw.

Taylor Fishin 4 life reply :

so what do you do when your fishing by yourself and catch a monster how do you take a picture ??? and if holding bass by the jaw is bad Bill Dance has killed many of many of many farm raised bass ;D

Hooligan reply :

Quote
so what do you do when your fishing by yourself and catch a monster how do you take a picture ??? and if holding bass by the jaw is bad Bill Dance has killed many of many of many farm raised bass ;D

Actually I don't take pictures often. They're just not important to me.

RoLo reply :

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see where this topic is worthy of four pages.

All of Mother Nature's creatures are built tough, there are no exceptions and no bad designs.

When I was young and naïve, I thought that flowers were delicate, and went out of my way

to handle them with great care, as if they'd break and die. But after watching professional florists

handle their bread-and-butter, I learned a great deal. They roughly manhandle plants

and flowers as if they were indestructible, and with no ill-effects.

The internal organs of all animals are well supported, and from every concievable angle

of centripetal force (gravity). We primates walk vertically all day long,

and then we lie down horizontally all night long. Our internal organs probably benefit

from different angles of circulation. Fish have evolved over the millenium to be adaptable

in both the hydrosphere and atmosphere. Fish instinctively know that their body movements

are much faster in air than underwater. For this reason, a hooked bass will leap out of the water

and into the air, then shake its head violently to rid itself of the foriegn object.

With no help from man, the fish is out of its natural medium and in a "vertical" position.

When they're sedated, elephants and rhinos can suffer from respiratory insufficiency,

but this is due to their enormous bodyweight, which can stifle their ability to breath.

However, this only takes place when the animal is sedated, lying on the ground, and "horizontal".

Roger

Fish Chris reply :

for what it's worth, if anything.....

I always say, big fish (and all fish that you intend to release, alive and healthy) should be handled

>WITH COMMON SENSE< !!!

Don't torque the fish into an unnatural position by the jaw....

But also:

Don't keep the fish out of water for any longer than you absolutely have to ! Have your live well ready, or put the fish back into a large landing net, or whatever you have to do, to keep it submerged, while you get your camera and scale ready.

Also, be careful not to drop, slam, or bang the fish.

While handling it, try to anticipate any "freak out" of the fish, holding it as low as possible to the deck, in case it should get loose from you.

When I hear people wondering if they might have broke the fishes jaw, by holding it vertically, I'm always thinking, huh ?

I promise you that if you break a fishes jaw, you are going to know it ! You would feel it snap, and it would immediately distort, and not close properly. This is not something you will ever have to wonder about later.

It's kind of funny when somebody will see one of my horizontal big fish shots, and give me comps about how I was holding it, because even that fish was almost certainly pulled from the water, or net, by the jaw with one hand, vertically. It's very hard to do otherwise, when you fish by yourself.

Of course I've re-caught several of my big bass, that were previously handled this way, but even way more frequently, I've been back to those same areas, and sighted many big fish that I have previously C/R'd.... doing totally fine I should add.

Anyway, I totally believe that far more bass are killed by guys not being prepared, for what to do with a {big} Bass when they do finally catch it (mostly, by keeping it out of the water for too long) than by guys that carefully, gently held the fish by the lower jaw, with one had, for a short time.

Not to sound like a smart arse, but the fact is, the best way to prevent any possible injury to a fish, is to not stick a hook in it.....

And I don't think any of us would be willing to go that far

Peace,

Fish

PS, I was just flashing back to that 8.5 lb Smallie in my avatar, and remembering how much of a maniac it was ! After that shot, I was trying to get ahold of it in my live well, and it bit the heck out of my thumb ! Maybe the hardest bite (to myself) from any bass, ever ! I think it's jaws were fine !

Nothing like that channel cat did to my thumb, as a kid.... but that's a whole other story

10403

Why do we still see vertical holds with large fish? 2024

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