Fish Becoming Conditioned 2024
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
What do you think? Can LMB really become conditioned to a particular bait? IMO I think no! I always hear people saying that bass become conditioned to a bait and they won't bite it. I wondered how is that possible with the little brain that they do have. It seems more possible that maybe they are not feeding no longer on the food you are imitating. Meaning you are throwing a blue gill bait but now there are more shad in the area and that is what they are feeding on at that time.
Hope that made since. What is your opinion?
wademaster1 reply :
I think if the fish see the exact same thing 1000 times every few days, yes, they may learn that it's not an actual natural food item. This is why lots of guys preach about using something different than most folks.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Being that there memory is so poor you think it's possible for them to remember a specific bait?
slonezp reply :
Old and wise? Yes. Conditioned to a bait? Not so much.
yoyoman reply :
there are studies of goldfish being trained to do certain things like swimming threw holes to get food. i assume bass to be smarter. i think the constant daily barrage of the same lures for sure makes them smarten up. i also believe when they are in th feeding mode, they will almost take any bait because of the reaction bite. just look at new ponds being fished. at first u can catch the on a gum wrapper but they will wise up. so when fishing is slow try something no one else throws.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
I believe the older bigger bass are pickier and settle for bigger easier (targets) meals. Every year monsters are caught on spinnerbaits and those have been around for a bunch of years. If you have a imitation of what they are eating when they are eating it then you can catch them regardless of how many times they have seen it. IMO of course.
slonezp reply :
The thing people overlook is bass don't eat food just because it's put in front of their face. What's the difference between seeing the same bluegill all the time and seeing the same KVD 1.5?
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
If the bass sees a blue gill but it is feeding on shad then it will ignore the blue gill. I believe bass have different preferences at different times of the year.
slonezp reply :
Fish don't only attack bait beacuse they are hungry. When they are hungry they will attack anything that looks tasty. How many times have you caught a bass that is spitting up multiple types of bait? Happens all the time. Spitting up crawfish and baitfish. A bass will also strike because it's territorial, because it's startled, because its curious, etc.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
I agreed!
slonezp reply :
On 3/16/2013 at 10:46 PM, Delfi_Boyz said:I believe the older bigger bass are pickier and settle for bigger easier (targets) meals. Every year monsters are caught on spinnerbaits and those have been around for a bunch of years. If you have a imitation of what they are eating when they are eating it then you can catch them regardless of how many times they have seen it. IMO of course.
Fish Chris is the one you need to talk to about large bass because that is what he targets. My opinion, for what it's worth, the larger the fish, the more energy it loses chasing bait. This is why they prefer fewer larger meals if it's feasible.
WRB reply :
The bass that learn from their mistakes grow old, the bass that don't.....don't!
Tom
yoyoman reply :
x2
Fishes in trees reply :
We have all had the experience of a lure working great one year and then not as good the next. Freshman Logic - Occam's Razor - More often than not the easy answer is the right answer. This leads me to believe that fish in any specific body of water can get conditioned to any specific bait.
As I consider this question in depth, considering multiple possibilities, my answer is "beats me, maybe probably, I dunno."
If you believe that fish in one body of water can communicate with other fish in other bodies of water through space and time through some unknown means, then that would completely explain my overall mediocre fishing success.
I think that the moment I hit the water, fish see me and say (think?), "That d**n blue boat is here now, don't bite his baits." Some fish don't get the message and those are the ones that strike my baits.
Of course, that isn't any reason not to go fishing.
OkobojiEagle reply :
I believe bass have the ability to learn simple behavior changes... bass fishermen, not so much.
oe
The Rooster reply :
People say fish can become conditioned by just seeing a bait multiple times, and I used to think so too, but if this isn't the case, then surely they can at least become conditioned by being caught multiple times on the same bait. Hmm....well, that can't be true either because they have such poor memories and wouldn't even remember it. What about back to back catches within a few minutes? Surely their memory isn't so bad they'd have already forgotten it? I really do doubt that one, but my brother once caught the same small bass so many times within a few minutes time that he was actually worried he'd perforated its mouth to the point of being unable to prey effectively for a while. Either it had a very poor memory or it was just stupid, but regardless of which, it definitely wasn't conditioned after that many times hitting the same bait.
yoyoman reply :
there are alot of people that keep going to jail for stealing but keep doing it anyway. lmfao
BassinB reply :
On 3/16/2013 at 10:44 PM, yoyoman said:there are studies of goldfish being trained to do certain things like swimming threw holes to get food. i assume bass to be smarter. i think the constant daily barrage of the same lures for sure makes them smarten up. i also believe when they are in th feeding mode, they will almost take any bait because of the reaction bite. just look at new ponds being fished. at first u can catch the on a gum wrapper but they will wise up. so when fishing is slow try something no one else throws.
Its nice to think that bass are a "smart " fish but in a relative manner they arent. In all actuality carp have a much more sensitive nerve system and a larger brain size relative to body size. You cant measure fish intelligence, but if you use a ratio to compare brain size bass are FAR down the list.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
I had a experience the catching if the same fish 3 times in a row on a crankbait. It was a 16in fish with black marking on it and was very skinny. After the 3rd time we left the area
Jay
yoyoman reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 1:18 AM, BassinB said:Its nice to think that bass are a "smart " fish but in a relative manner they arent. In all actuality carp have a much more sensitive nerve system and a larger brain size relative to body size. You cant measure fish intelligence, but if you use a ratio to compare brain size bass are FAR down the list.
i dont believe i said "smart". I meant that I ASSUMED that bass were smarter than goldfish but in no way did i mean to imply that a fish of any sort were smart. It was relative statement. all i meant was that fish ARE without a doubt able to learn and that this was and is proven. I wouldnt even consider a dog as smart. only humans but that could be debatable with some. lol
NEjitterbugger reply :
There is a seafood restaurant that is along the intercoastal, you can eat on a dock where you can feed stripers French fries and what not... I have tried to fish across the river and they wouldn't hit anything...
These fish were conditioned to French fries lol!
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Lol awesome. Throw a French fry with a hook in it and see if they stop eating French fries!
yoyoman reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 1:55 AM, Delfi_Boyz said:Lol awesome. Throw a French fry with a hook in it and see if they stop eating French fries!
lol now that would be interesting.
Bladesmith, reply :
I have a small pond on my place which I have stocked with 4 bass. Pond is about 30 feet in diameter with big shiners, crawfish, and perch as forage. These bass have been in this pond for 4 years. I can go out (it's in the front yard) at any time and drag a lure. These fish certainly become accustomed to what not to bite. I am careful not to give them too much pressure (they are my lure testers). They will hit almost anything the first time they see it. After being caught on it, I might as well throw it away. They will not hit the same lure a second time even the following year. This is strange because I have caught the same bass on the same lure on the same day on Eufaula Lake. Go figure. Maybe environment has something to do with it.
Felix77 reply :
IMO bass get conditioned in the moment. After seeing the first lure for numerous catches on a lure the bite will die. Sometimes changing colors or add scent and the bite will generally come back on.
If you then leave and come back in an hour sometimes its like fishing it brand new.
Of course there are exceptions but that's been my experience.
BassinB reply :
That's why I said in a relative manner and put smart in quotations. I referenced carp in comparison to bass because goldfish are in the same family as carp.On 3/17/2013 at 1:33 AM, yoyoman said:i dont believe i said "smart". I meant that I ASSUMED that bass were smarter than goldfish but in no way did i mean to imply that a fish of any sort were smart. It was relative statement. all i meant was that fish ARE without a doubt able to learn and that this was and is proven. I wouldnt even consider a dog as smart. only humans but that could be debatable with some. lol
But I do agree with you in that fish can and do learn, at least in a primitive way.
SudburyBasser reply :
Conditioned? I don't know. There is a video on this web site from a biologist where he mentioned that after about 15 minutes a fish has essentially forgotten it was caught and you can catch it again. If a bass forgets its unpleasant encounter after 15 minutes I would think it would also forget the particulars of why it was caught. Then again, conditioning isn't purely a function of memory, or rather it's a more complex process than simple memory.
If I remember all that fancy book learning in university correctly, the conditioning that we're most familiar with is called classical conditioning -- that two stimuli are responsible for a response. That was what Pavlov did with his famous dog experiments -- he rang a bell (first stimulus) then gave the dog food (second stimulus) and the conditioned response was salivation. He then removed the second stimulus so that only the bell would cause the response.
Operant conditioning relies on behavior modification because of something happening and it seems to me that's a more likely conditioning (though OC would seem to rely on a mental process I don't know that bass are capable of) going on with bass if it is happening. The fish remembers the experience of being caught came as a result of whatever factors are present (seeing hooks, lures, line, etc.) and learns to avoid it.
There are many other types of conditioning but it's been about two decades and I can't remember all of them.
Personally, given the mental capacity of a bass, I'm dubious that any real conditioning is going on but I don't claim to be an expert.
flippin and pitchin reply :
Where's the science ? I read a study provided by fish biologists for the University of Minnesota several years ago. Bass have a limited memory. The stimulis that triggered memory was nerve based, like pain. Certain stimulis provided by certain lure types remained in the memory longer than others. The lure type that fish would strike sooner after being hooked? The plastic worm. No Noise, No large water displacement, longer slender profile bait.
Here's a thought that puzzles me. I have heard or read from Bass Pros that bass will target a food source because they " know " it has a higher level of protien and or calcium, the crawfish. Bass will target blue back herring over a shad because the blueback herring has a higher concentration of fatty oils. Bass must be pretty darned smart.
yoyoman reply :
I found this article from abc science. there are a few i also found on some aquarium sites.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/01/14/2792407.htm
Fishing Rhino reply :
On 3/16/2013 at 10:08 PM, Delfi_Boyz said:What do you think? Can LMB really become conditioned to a particular bait? IMO I think no! I always hear people saying that bass become conditioned to a bait and they won't bite it. I wondered how is that possible with the little brain that they do have. It seems more possible that maybe they are not feeding no longer on the food you are imitating. Meaning you are throwing a blue gill bait but now there are more shad in the area and that is what they are feeding on at that time.
Hope that made since. What is your opinion?
Your supposition, highlighted in red is quite reasonable. Then again, a few years ago, I was catching bass after bass, after bass on a Storm Wild Eyed Gobi. The odd thing is that as far as I know there is not a Gobi within a few hundred miles of the pond I was fishing. I say as far as I know, because to my knowledge this small pond does not have a single Gobi.
Then in one of my grand experiments, I combined a wacky rigged worm with one rigged straight on the same hook. I nicknamed it the 747 because it looked like a plane. The fish were all over it. I could fish it slowly, or anywhere in the water column from the bottom to the surface, and they went after it. What did that monstrosity look like to them?
It's one of the things that I like about fishing. There are no absolutes, and we are only limited by our knowledge and our imaginations.
Bassguytom reply :
The U.S. Navy is training large mouth bass to swim up inland rivers and scout for terrorist and video any activity. The small Mouth bass will be running escort to take care of any native fish they come across. Now that's smart! But I really do think bass in my area get tied of seeing senko's and will hit something else more often when the season gets kicking.
Brayberry reply :
My 2 cents -Do bass get learn to avoid some baits? Yes (Crankbaits, Spinnerbaits, Buzzbaits) Look at any high fishing pressure body of water and these are the first baits to start getting less bites
Do bass learn to avoid soft plastics? No, Every twitch, drop, jump of the rod makes the spft plastic do something different and unique, in a new order. Either the fish can't get accustomed to it or it takes much much longer
This is just my experience though and my personal belief
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
There are a lot of baits out there that really don't look like much to us. Who is to say what they look like to a fish. The Senko is a prime example of that. A Gobi could look like a million things depending on how it's fished. It reminds me a lot of a tadpole. My main point is I do not believe that fish can look at a lure and not eat it because they are use to it. I believe that if it looks like what they are feeding on when they are feeding on it, and has the correct action it will look like a meal to them. Then there is the whole reaction strike topic. Reaction is a uncontrolled response, how do they get conditioned to that? If people can't get a reaction strike then the fish must be conditioned to that too,no?
I believe the whole conditioned bass theory is a great marketing ploy to get you to buy the latest and greatest new bait. More power to you if a new never before seen bait gives you the confidence to catch fish, but for me I will just match the hatch with anything new or old regardless if people think the fish have seen it before.IMO lol
Jay-
Snakehead Whisperer reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 1:55 AM, Delfi_Boyz said:Lol awesome. Throw a French fry with a hook in it and see if they stop eating French fries!
Last year I was fishing with a friend and his kids. We were catching rock bass left and right on night crawlers. After about the 90th fish in an hour I started to get hungry and slightly bored (kids were having a blast, btw.) My friend offered some Chex Party Mix and a lightbulb went off in my head... I decided to put the Chex mix on a 1/16oz. jig head and try to catch some rock bass on it. They hit the Chex with reckless abandon and I started having fun again.
As far as bass being conditioned to lures, etc.... I believe that most folks underestimate the intelligence of animals in general. Life for a fish is no walk in the park. I admit that it's possible that a full grown bass may have just been fortunate to survive through all of it's vulnerable stages in life and beat the odds, but my belief is that larger fish are cunning predators who are smarter than average. They grow to large sizes by being cautious and suspicious of their surroundings and the forage that they feed on. This is not to say that they are conscious of anglers, but I do believe that they can sense when something is not right and make a judgement call on whether it's worth the risk to eat a bait. Obviously they fall for artificial baits quite often, but I bet they pass on them just as often. Not saying that I have any evidence to back this up, but it's what I choose to believe for now.
WRB reply :
Technically LMB.live about 12 to 15 years under ideal conditions and they are most aggressive as young adults between 2 to 3 years old and those are the bass most anglers catch. The more aggressive the bass is the more likely it will not survive more than 4 years in waterways with high fishing pressure. The bass that are genetically wired to be very wary and avoid predators live far longer and these are the bass that grow larger and older.
In time the aggressive strain of bass get removed form the ecosystem, fewer find each other to spawn and the population tends to become the less aggressive gene pool and harder to catch on artificial lures. Year classes have there cycles and tend to peak and bottom out about every 10 years do to lots of factors.
Bass are sight feeders and see your lure in great detail, even moving at high speed because they see movement in slow motion like we see an instant sports replay. They learn to avoid lures they were caught with, if they don't they will not survive very long. A change of color or size is often enough to get a response from the less wary bass. However you need to be more diligent to fool the older wiser bass most of the time.
To catch the larger bass you need approach them from a different angle quietly with lures that appeal them, not lures that appeal to you.
Tom
FLcentral reply :
I agree with WRB. If Bass or other fish had no memory they would not reconize threats like Herons, Otters, larger fish and other hazzards. While this is more survival related than feeding responses it still shows they learn or become conditioned to negative experiences.
Down here in central Florida most all public warers are heavily pressured and a hot bite will become general knowlage within a week. Case in point when the bass school on shad for about a week they will hit many lures pretty well, after that boats will be on the spot before first light and right on the fish as soon as they show. They become very lure shy in the month that follows. Those that bite aggressively usiually end up fried so they won't be back to add their genes.
I have read a study that showed that bass don't become as conditioned to flexible types of artifical baits as they do to hard baits that produce a consistent sound or vibriation pattern.
I feel like it's always worth trying something different even if it looks a little goofy.
slonezp reply :
FLcentral, You mention the aftermath of a hot bite can go a month. Had it occurred to you that other changes may have happened causing the bit to slow down? Temperature changes, barometric pressure changes, more boat traffic, less boat traffic, the changes happening within the bass going from pre spawn to spawn to immediate post spawn, to post spawn, and how it relates to the baitfish going thru the same changes. I find is difficult to believe that a fish will put off eating because of being caught once or twice or a hundred times. Fish have to eat. I said in an earlier post, it is my opinion they grow wise. I do not believe it happens overnight.
Brayberry reply :
How many of us have fished lakes that the bite is great on weekdays, but slows way down on the weekends? Bass can learn. How many people have seen farm ponds with a feeder that goes off at set times, and just before the feeder goes off the fish gather around for a feast? If bass only remembered things for 15 minutes, why did they congregate around the feeder? They shouldn't have remembered it. Maybe it's conditioning, learning, whatever, but I believe bass can remember experiences longer then people realize. What about when your on a school of fish, catching them on a Rc 1.5 Crankbait, on every cast, then suddenly they stop biting? Why would you ever need to change lures, down size, change color? Why not just sit there for 15 minutes if they won't remember the crankbait?
Fishing Rhino reply :
When it comes to survival, I believe that most survival reactions are hard wired into their systems when they are hatched, not learned. Consider salmon, they did not "learn" the pathways to the sea where they mature, then return to the same waters where they were spawned. Their "navigation" systems were already programmed.
None of their year class had ever made the journey, yet they are "wired" to not only follow their routes, but also when to start migrating, and then when to return to their hatching place.
Can fish develop a "conditioned response". Yes, they can. A friend has a small manmade pond in his back yard. He has koi, bluegills and small turtles in the pond. He feeds them a commercial kibble. He has a jar with the food on the dock. When he thumps the jar on a piling, within seconds the fish and the turtles head to the dock to be fed.
But these, like tides, are regular, timed, repeating, not random occurrences.
My guess, and I'll admit it is just that, is that fish fleeing from the moving shadow of a wading Heron, or a flying Osprey are programmed to respond to that threat when they hatch. Those fish whose programming is not wired properly will be easy picking for the Heron and/or the Osprey. It's part of the process of natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. The "defective" tend to be culled from the gene pool first, reducing the chance that they will pass on the defect to their progeny.
Bankbeater reply :
IMHO, I think that the actual fishing pressure on the lake has a lot to do with it also. Bass are like anything else. You have some that are smart, and some that aren't.
jhoffman reply :
Salmon ocean or landlocked in the great lakes imprint in the stream. More often then not they return to the exact stream of imprinting. There could be another creek 100 yards away and they wont run into it because they didnt imprint in it. Imprinting is I believe mostly related to smell. Those fish can smell and remember which creek they were hatched or stocked into. This is why the steelhead program is successful and they dont all just run over and up into the Canada waterways.
senile1 reply :
This is an interesting subject and one that has been discussed a number of times here. There are scientific studies that seem to indicate that bass and other fish can be classically conditioned. (An Internet search will pull up a few. I've pasted one link below.) Even creatures with very little intellect have been shown to have this capability. How long that conditioning lasts is another matter. However, when on the water it all boils down to figuring out where the bass are and what to use to catch them. We can make educated guesses about why the fish aren't biting specific lures but we can never really know the tiny mind of the bass. Whether they don't bite on a particular day because of weather, conditioning, lack of hunger, incorrect presentation, etc is all speculation. Ultimately, we still have to figure out what lure will trigger the fish.
http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/Largemouth-Bass-Angling-and-Catchability-Mar-Apr-2006.pdf
slonezp reply :
Lures tend to try and immitate bait. Shad, bluegill, tilapia, crawfish or whatever, How can a fish become conditioned from eating what it believes to be a natural food source? I believe a bass will not starve itself unlike a cat or a dog which is dumb enough to be picky and dumb enough to starve if it doesn't get its chioce of food. In defense of the dog, a domestic pet can get lost and it's natural instincts will kick in as a means for survival.
Fishing Rhino reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 9:04 PM, jhoffman said:Salmon ocean or landlocked in the great lakes imprint in the stream. More often then not they return to the exact stream of imprinting. There could be another creek 100 yards away and they wont run into it because they didnt imprint in it. Imprinting is I believe mostly related to smell. Those fish can smell and remember which creek they were hatched or stocked into. This is why the steelhead program is successful and they dont all just run over and up into the Canada waterways.
I can understand the scent factor on the return trip to the spawning grounds.
But how do they know which paths to take when they make their first journey into the ocean. Herring, alewives, much the same. They are spawned, and then spend time in the waters where they were spawned, until they reach a certain point in their development, and they "know" somehow that it is time to leave the freshwater and head for the ocean. And not only the ocean in general but to specific areas where they can develop to maturity, and make the return journey to the spawning grounds.
wademaster1 reply :
Slonezp, so we're calling a cat or dog dumb because of their food preferences in the same discussion that we're talking about bass eating hard plastic, shiny, rattling versions of their prey while its tied to a string with big hooks hanging off of it even though the bass has been hooked numerous times with said lure?? Hmmm, I'm thinking the cat and dog may be a little brighter than you're giving them credit for.......LOL
J Francho reply :
Wait a minute. Doesn't the very notion that a bass will learn to use certain structure and cover to successfully forage verify their ability to learn, or become conditioned? I mean, we're only talking about one facet here, not biting baits. If they can learn how to repeat positive results, then the opposite must be true. A negative response must be learnable by them, or they'd fail to become successful predators.
slonezp reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 10:20 PM, wademaster1 said:Slonezp, so we're calling a cat or dog dumb because of their food preferences in the same discussion that we're talking about bass eating hard plastic, shiny, rattling versions of their prey while its tied to a string with big hooks hanging off of it even though the bass has been hooked numerous times with said lure?? Hmmm, I'm thinking the cat and dog may be a little brighter than you're giving them credit for.......LOL
It's difficult to get a pet who is raised on tablescraps to eat dry food. A bass on the otherhand is seeing a bluegill or a crawfish. This is what it eats. We are throwing baits that appear exactly as what it eats, or at least something which triggers a survival instinct. FWIW I love dogs and hate cats.
slonezp reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 10:27 PM, J Francho said:Wait a minute. Doesn't the very notion that a bass will learn to use certain structure and cover to successfully forage verify their ability to learn, or become conditioned? I mean, we're only talking about one facet here, not biting baits. If they can learn how to repeat positive results, then the opposite must be true. A negative response must be learnable by them, or they'd fail to become successful predators.
The OP is about being conditioned to a particular bait.
J Francho reply :
OK, bass seem to have a preference for crayfish. Why couldn't they learn a dislike for a chrome rattle trap? I'm trying to see the logic of one side, to prove or disprove the other side of the coin. I know from anecdotal experience sore mouthing just about every fish in noontime pond that you do have to change things up. That lime green Senko ain't gonna cut it by July. But that's in a relatively sterile "fish tank," a 20 acre pond, not a big lake.
roadwarrior reply :
Very interesting....
This topic lends itself nicely to explaining a phenomenon occuring over the past two
years on the Tennessee River reservoirs. More double digit fish were caught on Pickwick
last year than cumulative in the entire history of the lake! I know of at least three 11+
weighed in tournament and a 14 1/2 claimed this year! Two weeks ago the winning 5 fish
bag came in at 35 pounds and change!
These kind of numbers sound like something from the lakes of the Big Four States,
not TN and AL. Three friends from our local BPS all caught their first DD last year
together with me. That was POWERFUL! I don't know how I got left out of the mix.
So what's going on? I think we are seeing "uncatchable fish" being caught. Dottie was
the perfect example: Never caught except on bed, during spawn. This behavior may be
characteristic of bass that never come in shallow, never chase and never eat anything
but minnows. Does this sound far-fetched?
Well, this is my theory on The Rig. Fishermen are catching fish that have never been
caught. Putting what appears to be a school of their favorite meal right in their face is
simply irresistible, they lose all their inhibition. Note too, many if not all of these bass
have been caught in what most would consider open water.
yoyoman reply :
Exactly roadwarrior. Anew type of lure never seen before is fooling them. An extremely accurate look of a small school of fish but even this has a certain look to it. All our artificial lures can only match the real thing so much. That is why I always been told to work a lure differently to try to change the action to entice that strike. I believe when they are on the feed though there much easier to fool. kind of like the humans that keep falling for the scams of free money over the phone. they just cant resist. If fish were not conditioned all lures would work all the time and fishing would be catching not fishing. In my opinion of course.
slonezp reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 11:41 PM, yoyoman said:Exactly roadwarrior. Anew type of lure never seen before is fooling them. An extremely accurate look of a small school of fish but even this has a certain look to it. All our artificial lures can only match the real thing so much. That is why I always been told to work a lure differently to try to change the action to entice that strike. I believe when they are on the feed though there much easier to fool. kind of like the humans that keep falling for the scams of free money over the phone. they just cant resist. If fish were not conditioned all lures would work all the time and fishing would be catching not fishing. In my opinion of course.
Do you eat everytime food is in front of your face? Neither do fish.
FLcentral reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 11:06 AM, slonezp said:FLcentral, You mention the aftermath of a hot bite can go a month. Had it occurred to you that other changes may have happened causing the bit to slow down? Temperature changes, barometric pressure changes, more boat traffic, less boat traffic, the changes happening within the bass going from pre spawn to spawn to immediate post spawn, to post spawn, and how it relates to the baitfish going thru the same changes. I find is difficult to believe that a fish will put off eating because of being caught once or twice or a hundred times. Fish have to eat. I said in an earlier post, it is my opinion they grow wise. I do not believe it happens overnight.
The location I'm thinking of the fish school on the same bars over and over for 5 or 6 weeks. You can plainly see 3 to 4 inch shad jumping as bass chase them agressively. Throw out a shad imitateing plug and more often than not it will be refused. If you do find a lure that they will hit about 2 fish is what you'll get before they stop hitting. If you hit a day when they are very aggresive you may get a number of fish on a single lure. Odds are the next day the same bait may produce little or nothing.
Yor probably thinking this guy doesn't really know what he's doing but after 20 yrs of fishing this area I've seen it happen over and over.
I often catch more of these school fish by fishing under them with worms or other bottom bounceing baits.
So why do hungry aggresively feeding fish refuse lures that are carefuly designed to imatate a shad? Draw your own conclusions, but I'm convinced that heavy fishing pressure conditions the fish to avoid lures.
I agree that the correct lure selection can make all the difference. On a lake I use to fish a huge school of bass was busting shad on the surface. I went through all the usual topwater and sub surface lures in my box with out a bite before I realized the shad were only about 2" long. I pulled a white Crappie jig out of my box, tied it on a light rig and caught double digit numbers of bass from the same school.
yoyoman reply :
On 3/18/2013 at 11:49 PM, slonezp said:Do you eat everytime food is in front of your face? Neither do fish.
you should see me! lol. I get what you are saying but l meant you wouldn't have to fool them anymore. When bass got hungry they would take almost any lure. Kind of like newly opened fisheries or ponds.
slonezp reply :
RW, Are you implying the fish being caught on the a-rig are simply hitting it because they have never been targeted before and don't know what an artificial bait is?
roadwarrior reply :
On 3/19/2013 at 1:07 AM, slonezp said:RW, Are you implying the fish being caught on the a-rig are simply hitting it because they have never been targeted before and don't know what an artificial bait is?
No.
The Rig looks and probably feels line a small school of baitfish that are lost.
Here's another angle: Suspended bass are difficult or almost impossible to target, especially if the are
in whatever a fish's equivilent is to sleep. Sometimes (often?) they are just not in the mood to feed. However,
when a school of bait invades their territory, all bets are off.
To some extent the fish that are attracted to The Rig are the same fish targeted by big swimbaits. Mattlures
once described fishing his baits "out where they don't belong". So a big, dumb baitfish comes scootin' along
out in the middle of nowhere, but maybe that's exactly where Big Momma spends all her time. The big bass
might not be hunting, but maybe she won't pass up an easy meal. Maybe Speedbead will drop in and tell us
about those big bass he catches in PA.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Well I am amazed about the amount of people who agree and disagree with me. This truely is a matter of opinion since no one can truely get in our nemesis's head. I, just like everybody else, can speak from my own experiences which are going to vary from everybody else experiences on their bodies of water. Whether or not the fish are conditioned, point of the matter remains, sometime the fish are there and aggressive and sometimes they are not. Whether you stick around trying different baits waiting for them to wake up/show up or move on to find more active fish that is up to you. The diversity of the sport and it's challenges are what keeps us fisherman "conditioned" to try and catch the biggest, the most, and our own personal best.
Jay-
WRB reply :
You get way off topic when discussing targeting mid lake suspended bass using the deep water as a sanctuary zone verses bass being conditioned to ignor lures by bass anglers who normally fish within a casting distance from shore.
The big bass have always moved off shore and that should not be a mystery or new discovery. Before the modern electric trolling motor bass boat, bass anglers trolled a lot and Buck Perry created a presentation technique of trolling at controlled depths to exploit the suspended off shore bass populations.
The A-rig or umbrella or spreader rigs all started life off shore in salt water fishing to target suspended pelagic fish like tuna on the west coast and striped bass on the east coast and these rigs date back into the '50,s or earlier. Umbrella rigs with big swimbaits were secretly trolling in SoCal trophy bass lakes in the mid 80's.
Pickwicks WR SMB was caught trolling and my guess is today's bass anglers are trolling the A-rig to cover a lot of open water areas where big bass tend to locate. These bass haven't seen any lures very often, unless they move into or closer to shore. The other possibility is Florida strain LMB have been introduced into Pickwick. The A-rig will loose it's appeal as the bass get conditioned to it.
Tom
dumfish reply :
I think fish do become conditioned by their natural instinct for survival, the question is, do they pass these instincts to their offspring through the gene pool.
Bass Junkie reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 12:45 AM, OkobojiEagle said:I believe bass have the ability to learn simple behavior changes... bass fishermen, not so much.
oe
There is so much truth in this statement. Fish absolutely can be conditioned to lures. Not all types, however, have as many stimuli that result in conditioning. While a Rat-L-Trap or spinnerbait produce multiple strong stimuli, (i.e. Vibration, rattles, rhythmic flash, etc.) a lure such as the Senko has quite a bit less in the way of strong stimuli. They are soft, fall slowly and erratically, and are over all a very subtle lure, henceforth making them harder for fish to "pattern". This can explain why bass seem to respond to finesse baits better under heavy pressure. Most finesse baits are small, subtle soft plastic baits that are fished either very slowly, or very erratically, and produce the same set of stimuli that the Senko does. It can also explain the success rates that can be found by fishing lures in a manner different to the conventional or standard.
Sam reply :
Glen Lau and Homer Circle did the first studies on largemouth bass behavior and produced three of the earliest videos on the animal:
Bigmouth
Bigmouth Forever
The Feeding Habits of Bass
These three productions formed the ground work of what we know about the species and the science of the fish and its behavior.
Many baits catch the eye of the bass fishermen. The bass may or may not relate to a type, sound, profile or color of a specific bait.
One of the intresting things Lau and Circle noticed was that when a bass boat ventured along a stretch of bank with the trolling motor the larger females would hide in the structure. The big ladies somehow associated the trolling motor noise with being caught.
This is why many of the old bass fishermen do not use their trolling motor unless they have to and VanDam says to leave the motor run as by pulsating it can cause the bass to react in a negative manner. Take your choice of philosophy.
So do bass remember baits? Probably not.
Can a bass become conditioned to a specific bait? Probably not.
What we do know is that your presentation and technique will cause the bass to either 1) eat your bait; 2) try to kill it; or 3) ignor it.
Your challenge is to find that bait that will cause the bass to eat it or try to kill it. And everyday is different.
One day they want a fast moving bait; the next day they want it presented slow. Or the want noise or they want a silent bait.
It is part of the bass' harrassment program and they do a very good job with it!!! 
Shoop05 reply :
I don't think they are conditioned to the bait as much as the presentation. Bass don't really eat the minnow or shad that swims normal, (like most guys retrieve their crankbaits or spinnerbaits), it's the guys that do something different to the bait that get bit. Erratic retrieves, etc. Also, a lot of times guys fish it too fast or slow. It's great to think that we can pick up a fast moving bait and bust bass every time. That just doesn't work. Then we have to slow down and we have 1 of 2 ways to effectively work vertical baits, either as natural as possible, or so erratic the fish can't stand it, or don't have time to see it.
WRB reply :
Do you know what the hottest artifical lure ever made was?
It's not a soft plastic of any kind, it was the Finlander lure known as the Floating Rapala. This lure hit our shores in the late 50's and caught every type fresh water sport fish across North America! The original came in one size (F11) and one color; 4 3/8"long and silver foil with a black back.
The original floating Rapala didn't cast well with bait casting, but trolling was popular and mono line was just coming into it's own. The tight flashy natural swimming wiggle action mimic a live baitfish like no other lure before it. Amazing lure that bass will still strike today if you use it! It took about 15 years until the bass became conditioned to Rapalas and new sizes and colors were made to continue it's appeal....to anglers! Bass still like the original F11 because few have seen one today.
I fish hair jigs with custom pork rind trails for the same reason, few of the bass where I fish ever see them, unless they see mine, and yes they still work as good today as they did 50 years ago.
Knowledge isn't passed on through the genes, the ability to learn is. Don't confuse instinct with learned experience. You can't teach a non bird dog to hunt like a breed with with hunting instinct, they are hard wired to hunt and some are better then others.
Tom
Snakehead Whisperer reply :
On 3/19/2013 at 11:16 AM, WRB said:Do you know what the hottest artifical lure ever made was?
It's not a soft plastic of any kind, it was the Finlander lure known as the Floating Rapala. This lure hit our shores in the late 50's and caught every type fresh water sport fish across North America! The original came in one size (F11) and one color; 4 3/8"long and silver foil with a black back.
The original floating Rapala didn't cast well with bait casting, but trolling was popular and mono line was just coming into it's own. The tight flashy natural swimming wiggle action mimic a live baitfish like no other lure before it. Amazing lure that bass will still strike today if you use it! It took about 15 years until the bass became conditioned to Rapalas and new sizes and colors were made to continue it's appeal....to anglers! Bass still like the original F11 because few have seen one today.
I fish hair jigs with custom pork rind trails for the same reason, few of the bass where I fish ever see them, unless they see mine, and yes they still work as good today as they did 50 years ago.
Knowledge isn't passed on through the genes, the ability to learn is. Don't confuse instinct with learned experience. You can't teach a non bird dog to hunt like a breed with with hunting instinct, they are hard wired to hunt and some are better then others.
Tom
x2
J Francho reply :
I had an awesome conversation with a biologist last night. He basically shot down my logic, and stated that the neuro pathways for a negative response are totally different than those of learned hunting skill, or social behavior. Makes sense. His example was great. Imagine a whopper as your favorite food. You learn to just automatically order it, but that took time, and you have to find the Burger Kings in your area. Now, imagine someone unexpectedly pricking you with a pin. Your response is automatic, you instinctively move away from it. Now, I realize that human physiology is a lot more complex than a bass', but the two extremes hold true - different pathways to the brain.
Whether this answers the original question, I don't know. It's up in the air, still. I do think fishing pressure changes the game, more so on smaller waters. Whether that's stress on the fish, the environment, or they learn not to bite, no idea.
Paul Roberts reply :
Bass can defintely learn. And they can become more difficult to catch after being exposed to angling. There are quite a few studies that have shown this. And each individual fish in a group does not need to be pricked to learn that something is "not food". They can observe other fish sample and reject and get the message. If you doubt that fish can get wary of angling, all you need do is fish a pond (or trout stream) that's NEVER been fished before (no small order nowadays). It's shocking how "stupid" the fish are. Also, read the relevant sections in "Knowing Bass" by Keith Jones. In short, at Berkley, the bass in test tanks learn really quick what is "not food" and they must be replaced regularly so as not to skew test results. Add a sharp poke to that and … I would suspect that the message is that much stronger, even negative, at least for a time. According to Jones, as I remember it, bass could “remember” a lure as dangerous for up to a couple of months. And realize, not all individuals are the same; Some learn quicker and probably hold on to it longer. Whether this “remembering” is "learning" or classic “conditioning” I'll leave to others to decipher.
In the wild, things are MUCH more complex, that is, way fewer variables can be controlled for. We’re not talking indoor climate controlled laboratory tanks anymore. All the things that go into the "decision" a fish makes in striking a lure -competition, aggressively feeding, visibility (weighs huge), etc… would suggest that a fish fooled by a common lure is no evidence for conditioning either way.
That said, I have seen things that tell me that fish in the wild can learn that particular lures are either “not food” or worse. The question though is, for how long? A couple examples:
This is a common ploy I use... Run a particular lure through a pod of fish and catch 3. Then they stop biting that lure. Immediately switch lures and I catch a few more. Switch again.... I've done this on MANY different occasions. And I still use it. If I know I'm on fish I'll often have alternate lures rigged and ready to eek out more bites. Here's a particularly good example of this:
I used to fish walleyes at night under schools of shad that were attracted to a light hanging off a bridge. It was a uniquely consistent late spring / early summer pattern and I would go every night. At first I'd KILL em. Then the bites would taper off. Shad were still there, walleyes still chasing them. But bites would erode. Then I'd switch lures and bam! Back in business. Once I got hip to this I'd begin the night with a row of crankbaits layed out before me and I'd go through each one, one by one, as bites eroded. And it worked like a charm. What was interesting was, some lures were more difficult for the fish to learn than others. Plastic fat plugs lost their charm quickest. Balsa floating Rapala's less so. The one lure it appeared they NEVER learned was a small soft plastic swimbait (this was way prior to the "swimbait craze"), the “Lil' Fishie”. I think the same might be true for bass –that some lures are harder to recognize as “not food” than others– like plastic worms and jigs.
Again, the question is, for how long do they “remember”, and we have to keep in mind that changing conditions with the fish as well as environmental conditions (esp visibility) weigh in huge. I’ve come to realize that, in the small public waters I fish regularly, visibility (lighting conditions) is one of the major factors relating to how willing bass are to bite chunks of plastic, wood, metal, and silicone. Let's face it, lures look pretty stupid MOST of the time. Just ask the fish. Lures have to do something special, at just the right times and places, to do us any good.
I can’t control when fish are in position to feed, I can’t control whether they are in high competition with cohorts, but I can often pick the best lighting conditions--the days and places--I fish. A lot of the time I’m just not all that keen on getting my butt kicked. This is one angler that can learn, albeit often the hard way. Maybe I've become conditioned to mowing the lawn on those brilliant blue summer days.
grampa1114 reply :
Well then...If I found a pin in my Whopper...I probably wouldn't order another one for a while but I'm pretty sure that I'd give them another try. But am I smarter than a Bass?
J Francho reply :
QuoteAgain, the question is, for how long do they “remember”, and we have to
keep in mind that changing conditions with the fish as well as
environmental conditions (esp visibility) weigh in huge.
I think the ice over period resets things for us up north.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/20/2013 at 12:33 AM, J Francho said:I think the ice over period resets things for us up north.
Spoken like a true steelheader. They reset every night. What was it Lanny Waller said, "Be first, or be different."
J Francho reply :
The old change-up works like the devil. 
slonezp reply :
On 3/20/2013 at 12:32 AM, grampa1114 said:Well then...If I found a pin in my Whopper...I probably wouldn't order another one for a while but I'm pretty sure that I'd give them another try. But am I smarter than a Bass?
If I found a pin in my Whopper, I'm going to be a rich man. 
For the sake of argument, anyone been on a hot crappie bite using live bait only to have it slow down and then pick up again. The fish are still there, they;ve just changed their feeding habit. What of the possibility of disturbing the school is causing the slowed bite? Same with a school of bass. You pull a couple out of the school and the others become weary. Or catch and release a few and they go back and tell their buddies.....
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Opinions are like .... Oh wait, I mean show me the facts. 
Jay-
Paul Roberts reply :
If you are really looking for "facts", you're looking in the wrong place.
roadwarrior reply :
"Life experiences" are facts, but involve many uncontrolable variables.
For example, it's a "fact" that I catch bass every time I fish except when
I don't catch any!
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/20/2013 at 2:13 AM, roadwarrior said:"Life experiences" are facts, but involve many uncontrolable variables.
For example, it's a "fact" that I catch bass every time I fish except when
I don't catch any!
Yes. Well put.
As for your example ..LOL. Same for me! Must be true.
PABASS reply :
In the animal world you need to adapt, Bass are no different. Bass can be conditioned for sure, fish a local pond and over time the fish wise up I have seen it several times with several ponds, but winter does seem to reset some things however very shortly after they are back to being harder to catch..
Paul Roberts reply :
Agreed. It's not a complete reset. Fish a pond that's NEVER been fished and you'll see.
PABASS reply :
I know trout are not bass but they are fish and have some similar qualities, anyway I am lucky enough to have wild trout in rivers I fish, they will not hit typical baits and lures used to catch the farm raised trout, for example powerbait,mealworms and even inline spinners they are hard to catch on spinning gear and you really must match the hatch and employ fly gear to fool these fish, point is they have been conditioned, just as there farm raised relatives have been to eat certain foods and I know Bass are no different. Just keep in mind we humans condition many animals to eat things they never would in nature, fish, bass are no different.
Snakehead Whisperer reply :
On 3/20/2013 at 12:32 AM, grampa1114 said:Well then...If I found a pin in my Whopper...I probably wouldn't order another one for a while but I'm pretty sure that I'd give them another try. But am I smarter than a Bass?
Or a finger in your chili? 
NEjitterbugger reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 1:55 AM, Delfi_Boyz said:Lol awesome. Throw a French fry with a hook in it and see if they stop eating French fries!
On 3/17/2013 at 2:10 AM, yoyoman said:lol now that would be interesting.
That's what will try when the stripers begin running into the rivers... LOL
WRB reply :
The view point to look at unconditioned bass verses conditioned bass makes the point.
There are a lot of conditioned bass, every public lake sees a lot of fishing pressure. Not so many opportunities to fish for unconditioned bass that have never been caught before, unless you know someone with a private lake that doesn't get fishing pressure or a new lake stocked with bass and not fished for a decade.
I have had several opportunities to fish virgin bass lakes and they bass populations are very aggressive and stupid easy to catch. DVL or Diamond Valley Lake in California was well stocked with several year classes of FLMB and the lake opening was postponed for 7 years . When DVL opened the bass fishing was beyond belief, 35 lb, 5 bass limits was the norm for about 6 mounts. C & R was encouraged and bass anglers released the bass they caught. After 6 months the bass became a lot harder to catch, now after 8 years the lake is like any other bass lake, good days and tough days with occasion big bass catches. The unconditioned bass became conditioned to lures.
Tom
xbacksideslider reply :
Maybe they have a different sort of mind, binary, or go-no go, such that the big ones get that way simply by being wary, by having an easy "no go" impulse and a tough to trigger "go" impulse.
Not thought just stimulus and response.
Getting caught is traumatic, imprints deeply, increases frequency of future "no go" responses.
On the other hand, predators have to be smarter than prey.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/20/2013 at 12:40 AM, slonezp said:For the sake of argument, anyone been on a hot crappie bite using live bait only to have it slow down and then pick up again. The fish are still there, they;ve just changed their feeding habit. What of the possibility of disturbing the school is causing the slowed bite? Same with a school of bass. You pull a couple out of the school and the others become weary. Or catch and release a few and they go back and tell their buddies.....
I just saw this.
That’s a good point. Exactly what's turning fish on and off can be hard to get at and we're left to interpret as best we can. Here are some thoughts, and things I've seen...
As to schools of fish turning on and off I've interpreted it (in part from watching fish in clear shallow waters) as fish bouncing between being put off (being disturbed) and excited by competition -the latter being a strong motivator. Bob Underwood wrote about diving with bass and one thing he was excited about was how his test angler could be casting repeatedly to a school of bass with no response. The only reason that angler didn’t move on is bc Bob told him the bass were there. Suddenly, Bob said, a bass would yawn –stretch its jaw muscles. Then another would yawn, then another. Suddenly one would grab the lure that had been so disinteresting previously. Then the whole school turned on and the angler caught one after another. Brian Waldman (bigindianabass) has described fishing to large post-spawn/pre-summer aggregations in which he could catch 30, 40, or more on “a run”. I think his record was something like 60 fish! Get one to bite and…it’s off the races. Positioning on the school is critical he says, but I also wonder whether those fish are not just waking up. I wouldn’t know, my home waters now are too small for such massive aggregations. I tend to trust Brian's interpretations.
When I'm fishing groups of fish I often try to think ahead before I start bombing the group. Trying to catch fish off the top of the school, then going deeper alongside, then going back to the top is one way that can sometimes seem to eek more bites. But I’m not down there, so I dunno.
One group situation I seek out is when bass in my ponds target spawning bluegills. Groups of mature bass hang out around the ‘gill colonies waiting for opportunities to efficiently capture a ‘gill. The bass can be spooked, or put off, if I just excitedly start chucking and I might only catch one or two. So I fish carefully and place casts outside and along the edges of the colony, and use any cover to both hide negative parts of my presentations and serve as “ambush points” –which I define as places that offer energetically efficient opportunities for fish to make a kill. I cast so my lures enter quietly, and I switch lures (usually between 2 or 3 options). The idea is catch as many of the bass as I can before I need to rest them, moving on to pester another colony.
As to my switching lures to eek out more bites idea, I’ve come to that from enough experiences in which the events happened in such a short span of time that I don’t believe it’s the fish “turning on or off” on their own accord. And I’ve just plain watched it -fish getting wise to one lure then willing to try another: Catching spawning ‘gills with fly tackle, nymphing to clusters of trout in a stream pool, steelhead gone stale from too many fluorescent balls drifting by, suddenly committing suicide bc I switched to an in-line spinner –something they’d never seen before. Catching stream smallies in pools: I used to live near a good smally stream and I’d spend hot summer days fishing and swimming. I’d approach a good swimming hole, cast a jig and catch several before they wised up. Then I’d switch to an in-line and catch some more. Then I’d jump in and cool off. Repeat at next pool, picking raspberries along the way. 
Gosh, I miss that stream.
Another case of fish “wising up”, or more accurately, educated bass being “wise” to begin with... A while back I fished a small res for the first time. Got out of the car to do some reconnaissance, and walked up on a 4lb largemouth. Then another. Then two more! They were large females on small groups of large spawning ‘gills. I’d hit it just right in timing. I went back to the car to get my gear, shaking with anticipation. As I was rigging a couple other anglers came over and said, morosely, “Did you see those big bass? …They won’t hit anything.”
I approached the bass quietly, but somewhat visibly, and tried several things including a swimming worm, a 4” wacky’d finesse worm, and a plastic craw, to no avail. But I’d noticed something in those fish at my approach, something I’ve seen fish do before. Their erect fins sagged and they sunk ever so slightly deeper at my approach. They “sulked” is how I describe it. Trout on hard-fished rivers, esp large browns, do this. So, I rested the bass, then rotated back through each fish approaching low to the water’s edge and hidden behind shoreline brush. Casting from behind bushes was difficult but the bass did not see me, and did not sulk. And I caught three of the four. Two tipped up for the swimming worm on the first cast like a trout coming up for a dry fly. Number three took the worm on the second cast. She was interested but turned away on the first, and took the worm killed and twitched on the second. The fourth had moved and spotted me on my attempted approach, and vacated. The bass I lipped were two 19s” and a 20” –top fish for that water –or just about anywhere here in Colorado.
slonezp reply :
Riddle me this. Why do bass continue to strike, or ignore lures while in the confines of the Hawgtrough? Please don't tell me it's because of the new magic lure or scent. I realize this is far from natural surroundings, but it's naturat to the fish. They are used to seeing people crowd around them and know they are not a threat unlike Pauls story about having to hide in order to catch fish. Yet time and time again I've seen the bass hit the bait(s) or ignore them. I cannot think it is anymore than the bass either being hungry and not hungry, or bored and stimulated. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't seem to fathom how "conditioning" can overpower instinct
Crestliner2008 reply :
Great discussion! Until we can actually get inside the brain of a fish, we will NEVER know the answer. However, some rules never change. A bass is a predatory animal, that HAS TO take advantage of an opportunity to feed - it has no choice. This is especially true of the ice out through spring and the fall through ice up periods. This is why folks still catch bass on Hula Poppers and River Runts to this day. And on plain ole' red & white patterns.
I believe fish can be conditioned, but only for a short period of time. With any kind of lull in presenting a particular lure or bait, the bass will resort back to it's primordial instincts and proceed to feed opportunistically. Just the way I look at it. And I do NOT look at it very much. I'm more of the school of thought that any fish can be caught - regardless of the pressure it has to endure - by adhering to the basic premise of depth and speed control.
slonezp reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 1:13 AM, Crestliner2008 said:Great discussion! Until we can actually get inside the brain of a fish, we will NEVER know the answer. However, some rules never change. A bass is a predatory animal, that HAS TO take advantage of an opportunity to feed - it has no choice. This is especially true of the ice out through spring and the fall through ice up periods. This is why folks still catch bass on Hula Poppers and River Runts to this day. And on plain ole' red & white patterns.
I believe fish can be conditioned, but only for a short period of time. With any kind of lull in presenting a particular lure or bait, the bass will resort back to it's primordial instincts and proceed to feed opportunistically. Just the way I look at it. And I do NOT look at it very much. I'm more of the school of thought that any fish can be caught - regardless of the pressure it has to endure - by adhering to the basic premise of depth and speed control.
Anyone worth his weight who trolls for walleye or salmonoids knows the importance of this and would probably tell you this is more important than bait choice.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 12:25 AM, slonezp said:Riddle me this. Why do bass continue to strike, or ignore lures while in the confines of the Hawgtrough? Please don't tell me it's because of the new magic lure or scent. I realize this is far from natural surroundings, but it's naturat to the fish. They are used to seeing people crowd around them and know they are not a threat unlike Pauls story about having to hide in order to catch fish. Yet time and time again I've seen the bass hit the bait(s) or ignore them. I cannot think it is anymore than the bass either being hungry and not hungry, or bored and stimulated. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't seem to fathom how "conditioning" can overpower instinct
Well… again I don’t know where exactly where conditioning leaves off and learning begins. But, in my mind, if learning didn’t occur then there wouldn‘t be fish. Fish experience pain and fear for a reason –it’s a very old survival mechanism.
Are you suggesting that when fish are hungry they cannot be spooked, alarmed, put off? Approach is one of the primary tactics anglers have to learn. I won’t bother giving examples beyond saying that you should try stream fishing for wild trout. I’ve spent considerable time watching stream trout and anglers interact. The clumsy, or clueless anglers, fail miserably.
As to the “Hawgtrough” (I assume you mean an aquarium), fish like other critters can filter out stimuli that are found not to be dangerous. Lots of examples of this: Birds on airport runways, peregrine falcons nesting in downtown NYC, fish feeding despite constant heavy boat traffic, trout (same critter mentioned above that runs screaming at a slight footfall or shadow of a fishing line) in very heavily fished tailwaters that happily use wading anglers as current breaks to feed behind (but won’t take a fly –they just aren’t that stupid anymore)…. There are tons of examples of this. Fish in aquariums eat when they are hungry, but I bet, if you give a fish an electric shock everytime it attempts to eat Berkley GULP! you'll condition it (right term this time) right outta that. In fact, this type of thing has been done many times in fish behavior research. Fish can be “conditioned”. They aren’t robots –slaves to their instincts. They can learn.
I think lotsa anglers, when talking about the “pea-sized brain” of a fish don’t appreciate just how complex that pea actually is.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 1:13 AM, Crestliner2008 said:Great discussion! Until we can actually get inside the brain of a fish, we will NEVER know the answer. However, some rules never change. A bass is a predatory animal, that HAS TO take advantage of an opportunity to feed - it has no choice. This is especially true of the ice out through spring and the fall through ice up periods. This is why folks still catch bass on Hula Poppers and River Runts to this day. And on plain ole' red & white patterns.
I believe fish can be conditioned, but only for a short period of time. With any kind of lull in presenting a particular lure or bait, the bass will resort back to it's primordial instincts and proceed to feed opportunistically. Just the way I look at it. And I do NOT look at it very much. I'm more of the school of thought that any fish can be caught - regardless of the pressure it has to endure - by adhering to the basic premise of depth and speed control.
Fish do make "choices". They make them all the time. "Feed" or "Run and Hide" is a choice. But I do understand your meaning. But let's not fool ourselves and sell fish short. It may make us feel better, but I don't think it's accurate.
Yes, depth and speed control are primary. But it's not true that EVERY fish can be caught. A number of studies have shown that there is a percentage of bass in any given population that have been described as "uncatchable" or "immune to angling". And there are indviduals that are extra-vulnerable to angling. Fish are FAR from being simple robots.
slonezp reply :
I am not suggesting they cannot be spooked. and agree it's a natural survival mechanism. Trout also tend to be spookier than bass. I agree fish can be conditioned to their enviroment, that's not the topic of the OP. Can they become conditioned to lures? The three basic rules for survival are eat, reproduce, and defense. Spookiness is a defense mechanism hence an instinct. Can a fish get spooked by a lure? Probably, but again, is that conditioning or instinct? Conditioning, in this case, as I understand it, is a bass won't hit a bait it believes to be a food source for fear of a negative experience. Now, I won't go to a restaurant where I've been served crappy food. Does a bass have the intelligence and abiltiy to identify a negative food source which appears almost identical to a natural food source???
Paul Roberts reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 1:50 AM, slonezp said:I am not suggesting they cannot be spooked. and agree it's a natural survival mechanism. Trout also tend to be spookier than bass. I agree fish can be conditioned to their enviroment, that's not the topic of the OP. Can they become conditioned to lures? The three basic rules for survival are eat, reproduce, and defense. Spookiness is a defense mechanism hence an instinct. Can a fish get spooked by a lure? Probably, but again, is that conditioning or instinct? Conditioning, in this case, as I understand it, is a bass won't hit a bait it believes to be a food source for fear of a negative experience. Now, I won't go to a restaurant where I've been served crappy food. Does a bass have the intelligence and abiltiy to identify a negative food source which appears almost identical to a natural food source???
Ah! I see what you're getting at. I dunno. If it "believes the lure to be a food source" than I think it would be willing to try and eat it if its hungry or feeding or whatever. But I do think that fish learn to discern "food" from "not food". The fact that bass do become "educated" to a surprisingly high degree compared to unfished for bass, tells me they can distinguish this, and probably (due to lab studies on negative conditioning in fish behavior) even as negative. How long?? I can only take Keith Jones word for it. He says "months".
QuoteDoes a bass have the intelligence and abiltiy to identify a negative food source which appears almost identical to a natural food source???
I don't think lures are very good at being "identical to a natural food source". Lures need to do something special in time and space, usually with the help of environmental conditions, to do us much good most of the time.
I fish shallow waters a lot and can often see hunting bass. But I don't catch them all. In fact, if we could see what goes on between most bass and our lures, even with depth and speed controlled, we'd probably hang it up.
I hear your point though, and do wonder where instincts, conditioning, and longer term learning separate.
slonezp reply :
QuoteI don't think lures are very good at being "identical to a natural food source". Lures need to do something special in time and space, usually with the help of environmental conditions to do us much good most of the time.
Agreed, purely from a behavior standpoint, since many lures nowadays are visualy lifelike. So the fact that bass will still try to eat something which may not act naturally says a bass is not smart enough to be conditioned to a lure, OR instinct just overpowers its ability to discern good food from bad food.
On a side note, I'd like to thank everybody who participated in this discussion.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 2:19 AM, slonezp said:Agreed, purely from a behavior standpoint, since many lures nowadays are visualy lifelike. So the fact that bass will still try to eat something which may not act naturally says a bass is not smart enough to be conditioned to a lure, OR instinct just overpowers its ability to discern good food from bad food.
On a side note, I'd like to thank everybody who participated in this discussion.
X2 Thank everybody who participated in this discussion
I had no idea that this would generate so much interest and so many different point of views. I guess in a way everyone agrees to disagree. This is a awesome discussion and I hope some biologist get involved and study these allegations in further detail.
Thanks again all.
Jay-
J Francho reply :
I'm having a chat on Facebook, with writer Rich Zaleski. He reminded me that he did research and wrote a four part series on this very topic years ago for In-Fisherman magazine. Here's what he had to say:
Quote8000 words condensed into a few dozen.
Yes they do get conditioned. The easier a lure is to identify, the shorter its productive lifespan within any confined population of fish. IE, bright colors/distinctive vibration patterns attract bites when virgins, not so much after all the fish have been hooked on them a couple times. Simply put, it's easier for the limited mind of a bass to associate things with a high identity quotient with the stress of capture, than to decide that eating something that it can barely recognize is bad for it. They do NOT pass on these acquired avoidance tendencies to their offspring. But there's a whole separate issue regarding the wearing out of various patterns over generations of bass, that's too complex for this ultra condensed dissertation.
-Rich Zaleski
Michael DiNardo reply :
I don't buy it. If this were the case, I would never catch a fish on a black jitterbug, or a white spinnerbait.
Mike
Hooligan reply :
It's been shown time and again that they do become conditioned. Not only to a bait but to specific sounds, and colors. If you can't condition largemouth or smallmouth, why is it that you can feed train them? 100% conditioning in the same way that they become conditioned to lures.
That said, it has also been shown that the one bait they never condition to is a soft plastic worm. Dr. Cook has shown it in studies for Berkley, the biologists at SDSU have shown it in captive and wild fish, Glen Lau filmed it hundreds of times.
No doubt in my mind that fish condition to specific baits. Zero.
SuthernProg reply :
I don't know if they get conditioned or not, but do you think a bass would remember a bluegill if it slammed a hook in his mouth and body slammed him out of the water into a boat?
J Francho reply :
Many pros speak about negative cues. Things like pulsing the trolling motor, noises in the boat, bumping into cover, etc. To a man, they say avoid this. I'm wondering whether this simply spooks the fish, or is this part of fishing pressure, or a little of both?
Michael DiNardo reply :
On 3/26/2013 at 11:07 PM, J Francho said:Many pros speak about negative cues. Things like pulsing the trolling motor, noises in the boat, bumping into cover, etc. To a man, they say avoid this. I'm wondering whether this simply spooks the fish, or is this part of fishing pressure, or a little of both?
I believe this is the key, great post JFrancho. It is not associated simply with the lures we use, but how our actions impact the fish and the surrounding environment.
grampa1114 reply :
Maybe that's why they put rugs in Bass Boats......who knew?
wademaster1 reply :
I think fish are conditioned to at least some degree.....but they still feed on their natural prey items, right? This means to me one thing. Use something that they can't distinguish as fake or alarming. Just because they're conditioned/spooked doesn't mean they're going to starve because of their past experiences.
JoePhish reply :
I don't think bass get conditioned if they exist in a natural setting (not in a tank or small pond).
I also don't think there are any constants in bass fishing.
Things change other than the bass itself. The bass just adapts and reacts to the conditions and hence, the lures we use.
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Could not have said it better myself...
On 3/27/2013 at 1:00 AM, JoePhish said:I don't think bass get conditioned if they exist in a natural setting (not in a tank or small pond).
I also don't think there are any constants in bass fishing.
Things change other than the bass itself. The bass just adapts and reacts to the conditions and hence, the lures we use.
Jay-
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
Okay so then bass are very intelligent. How can I condition them to jump into my boat.
Jay-
grampa1114 reply :
On 3/29/2013 at 3:38 AM, Delfi_Boyz said:Okay so then bass are very intelligent. How can I condition them to jump into my boat.
Jay-
If you hold a 5" Watermelon red flake Senko over the side of the boat with your fingertips and just as the bass comes to the surface, move it quickly back into the boat....sometimes.....
DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only reply :
On 3/29/2013 at 7:06 AM, grampa1114 said:If you hold a 5" Watermelon red flake Senko over the side of the boat with your fingertips and just as the bass comes to the surface, move it quickly back into the boat....sometimes.....
Or maybe a umbrella rig with five sinkos over the edge....Awesome great tip thanks!
Jay-
BassThumb reply :
On 3/17/2013 at 6:26 AM, Brayberry said:My 2 cents -Do bass get learn to avoid some baits? Yes (Crankbaits, Spinnerbaits, Buzzbaits) Look at any high fishing pressure body of water and these are the first baits to start getting less bites
Do bass learn to avoid soft plastics? No, Every twitch, drop, jump of the rod makes the spft plastic do something different and unique, in a new order. Either the fish can't get accustomed to it or it takes much much longer
This is just my experience though and my personal belief
I agree with this 100%.
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