coply to braid issues 2024
kiteman reply :
i'm trying to use 20# coply leader on a reeel that has 30lb braid. the rod has micro guides to the double uni knot catches a lot. i've tried alberto and FG and they always work the first fish or two and then after about 25 casts it just flies off into the lake. when i look at the braid it appears to have unwound itself through the knot itself. i go and look at directions and my knots look as good as the ones online, but when i cut my braid it appears to fray, and i think that fray undoes itself and wiggles itself slowly out of the knot. i don't know if i'm doing something wrong of it's not very good braid that shouldn't be fraying like that. the model is kastking braid, not the most expensive, but it's been strong as heck for years for me. any ideas?
BrackishBassin reply :
If the FG is tied correctly, your terminal knot should fail before it does. I use it for saltwater and had issues at first. After quite a few jigs and Gulp lost, I’ve got the hang of it now. I routinely throw 1 ounce jigs with Gulp baits on them and haven’t lost one since. Even broken off on oyster bars on the bottom with a 40lb mono leader. FG knot held fine.
OkobojiEagle reply :
When tying the Alberto, leave 1/2"-3/4" of tag on the braid...
oe
WRB reply :
On 10/15/2017 at 4:09 AM, OkobojiEagle said:When tying the Alberto, leave 1/2"-3/4" of tag on the braid...
oe
May not be a good idea with micro guides.
1 mm = .039, 3mm guide ring is .118 D, 4mm = .157 D. Most leader to line knots are 3 X the line diameter. 20 lb leader estimate dia is .018, 3 X .018 = .054. The problem with micro guides is the ring diameter is small vs the knot size.
Tom
WRB reply :
I would like to add if you use braid with leaders don't use rods with micro guides.
Tom
Further North reply :
I use braid with leaders on three different rods that have micro guides, (one spinning, two bait casting) with no problems.
Last weekend I had a swivel snap break before my FG knot or leader failed on one that I had Tyger Leader tied to 65# braid on (I was running a #5 Mepps on the rod).
If your knots are unraveling, something isn't right with the knots.
For the Alberto, make sure it is the co-poly that has the loop and the you are using the braid to do the weave...and make certain the braid passes through the loop from the same side of the co-poly loop at the end.
For the FG, make sure you are doing enough wraps (20 wraps really doesn't take any longer than 15, or even 10), make sure you are pulling on both the main line and leader before you finish it off (look for the color change in the knot as the braid bites into the co-poly), and I always add two or three half hitches in the braid to help make sure it doesn't unravel.
MickD reply :
I am an FG fan, but the knot is very easy to screw up. Also, it doesn't like an aggressive twitching retrieve. Same for the Alberto. My suggestions are: 1. More wraps than normal as recommended above. 2. You have to pull it VERY tight to set it. What the knot actually does is deform the leader to form mechanical interlocks in the leader for the braid wraps, but if the braid comes loose, the knot is gone. So the next suggestion is 3. Concentrate on very tight, multiple, half hitches to finish it, then apply super glue or UV curing epoxy to just the half hitches.
If you take one of your FG knots apart and see no permanent distortion of the leader, you are not tightening it enough. If it slips as you pull it tight, you are not using enough weaves. If the knot continues to slip as you pull, start over with more weaves-this knot is not salvageable. The FG is also different with lighter lines and leaders than with heavy ones for which it was developed. For lighter lines and leaders you really have to use a lot of wraps, and very tight, multiple, glued half hitches.
I know there are those who don't seem to need to do all these things, but I wonder if they really use the knot with aggressive twitches. I cannot get away without doing them.
The FG done right is a dream, very strong, very long lasting, very clean and quiet through the guides.
MickD reply :
I just reread the original post, and I believe that the FG is the only knot that will work with micros and that heavy leader and line. On the other hand, tying the FG on that heavy leader and line is easier than tying it on lighter lines. It may be simply that you don't realize how hard you have to pull to tighten it. You have to pull it tighter than you've had to pull any other knot. EVER. EVER. I suggest you try a test FG with that combination, then take it apart with a razor blade. If that leader is not VERY distorted, permanent curls, you are not tightening the knot enough. I still suggest the half hitch treatment as I have proposed earlier when you tie a knot intended for fishing.
Choporoz reply :
I know nothing of FG knot, but I do use Alberto on braid from 12# to 60#, with copoly leaders....and micro guides. However, I don't ever use leaders bigger than 15# on 50+ braid...and 6 to 12# test on smaller braids.
I don't know what copoly you're using, but I use Yo-Zuri and I am extremely careful with 15# and wouldn't likely use 20#. Aside from the diameter difference, which might be an issue, I just feel that the force needed to tighten down a leader knot would probably kink 20#, and the line becomes pretty brittle when there's a kink.
J Francho reply :
I've pretty much given up on passing any connection knots with micro guides. The only type of rod I like them on anymore are cranking sticks, and use straight fluoro.
fishballer06 reply :
I think you're going overkill with a 20lb. leader on 30lb. braid, but that's besides the point here...
I would suggest switching braid types, using a rod with normal size guides, or you can try putting Crazy Glue over your leader knot. This will help it pass through guides easier and strengthen the knot a little better.
Scarborough817 reply :
ya the micro guides are likely going to be a problem i would give a blood knot a try first tactical bassin has a really good video on tying it
NHBull reply :
If you are set in your choice, a drop of super-glue might help.....but many complain about knots and micros
kiteman reply :
On 10/16/2017 at 9:39 PM, Choporoz said:I just feel that the force needed to tighten down a leader knot would probably kink 20#, and the line becomes pretty brittle when there's a kink.
This is what I notice too, i kink the line when i pull it too tight. not sure if that's a problem, but i have noticed it.
Choporoz reply :
On 10/16/2017 at 11:29 PM, kiteman said:This is what I notice too, i kink the line when i pull it too tight. not sure if that's a problem, but i have noticed it.
you can be certain...it is a problem
Further North reply :
I fished all four of my rods with micro guides yesterday, two are currently rigged with 30# Tyger Leader....the other two are 30# Suffix 832 to 8# co-poly.
No issues...
Angry John reply :
I feel as though you have hit the upper limit on what your guides will pass. Reducing the size of the non braid line to something below 15 lbs might help a lot. I use a lot of 10 12 and sometimes 15 lb yhb to braid up to 40 lbs and dont have issues. The 20 is large and depending on the knot its doubled and that takes up a lot of room. Are you braking off with lower pound test or just like the heavier line.
MickD reply :
With a double uni each line is more than doubled, more like 5 layers of it. We keep talking about "micros" as if that describes the guides. "micros" are available from about 2 to 5.5 mm, so there certainly are combinations of lines/leader/knots that will work with some of these and combinations that won't work with the smallest ones.
WRB reply :
Agree that micro guide trains vary on baitcasting rods between 5mm to 2mm with the smallest located on the tip and about 3/4 down the blank with the largest closest to the reel. The smallest micro guides are also single foot very low profile and more are used compared to standard guides to keep the line off the rod blank. Single foot micro guides are also fragile and bend easily, a bent down guide decreases the ability of the line to pass through the guide ring.
When you have knots tied in the line, the knot bounces going through any guide and this causes the line whip and with micro guides the line is so close to the blank it can hit, this creates friction slowing down the line.
Using standard size giudes reduces all the problems associated with micro guides and knots passing though, fewer guides, higher off the blank, stronger guide frame and 2x+ larger guide ring ID reducing knot bounce and friction.
Why not use a rod with standard size guides when using braid with leaders?
Tom
PS, if your rods have micro guides check them for being bent, it's a common problem.
MickD reply :
What is the difference between a 5 mm micro and a 5 mm standard guide? Most custom makers put something like a 6 or 8 as the first guide, based more on height than diameter, then the same size all the way to the tip. 2x + larger if you are considering a 2 or 3 mm micro for the comparison, but certainly not for a 4 or 5 as the micro comparison. I still maintain one must talk about ring sizes and not "micro" vs. "standard." It takes a pretty darned large knot to cause problems with a 5 mm micro. Or a 5 mm standard.
I agree that the bigger the ring size the less problem you will have with knots. Part of the problem is the mis-use of small guides. For example, small guides on a big swim-bait rod.
The reason for small guides is two-fold- increased sensitivity and longer casts. If the rod is to be used with lures like big-swim-baits or large cranks, sensitivity and long casts are a very low priority. Better to use larger, more reliable, guides.
WRB reply :
I guess we are in the realm of what is a micro guide. I defined it as small ring sizes and very low profile. Agree if the smallest guide ring is 4mm, no issue with knots passing through. 2.3mm then it could be a problem.
So how about defining micro guide and enlightening us!
Tom
PS, I have no idea what type of rod the OP is using?
J Francho reply :
Long casts are part and parcel of deep cranks and big swimbaits!
I have a custom mid size swim bait rod rated to 5 oz. that has spiral wrapped micros, and the thing performs flawlessly. I don’t have any connection knots, though using straight coolly.
Angry John reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 7:49 AM, J Francho said:Long casts are part and parcel of deep cranks and big swimbaits!
I have a custom mid size swim air rod rated to 5 oz. that has spiral wrapped micros, and the thing performs flawlessly. I don’t have any connection knots, though using straight coolly.
I use 20 lb yhb with no issues on my sb rods. Why deal with a connection.
MickD reply :
I guess I should have stated it differently. If your rig casts long enough without going to really small guide sizes, then there is no need to, or no priority in using them. To me the only real reason for micros is sensitivity. I can build rods with bigger guides that cast far enough without using micros. If I were trying to milk the absolute most distance from a rod I would use "micros," about 3mm. I usually use 4-5 mm.
What is a micro guide? Good question. I think a micro is a guide that the manufacturer says is a micro. Some manufacturers have other names for what most of us call micros. All guides have hole and a foot. Some have two feet. If the hole is small enough people call them micros, but there really isn't anything specific about what makes a micro a micro. Fuji offers a line of guides they call micro that go as big as 5.5. They are lightly built and have smaller feet than most other running guides. But they offer their KB guide which has the small ring and a bigger, stronger , foot for use in the higher stressed middle sections of rods. I've never had a micro fail. While they may bend more easily than some guides, they are usually so low that they don't snag on things and I find they don't get bent any more than other guides. Because it is so hard to apply a bending load to them, I find them less apt to bend than small diameter "Y" guides.
I think the inspiration for the high reduction guides of smaller diameter and very small running guides was the use of similar configurations in distance casting competitions, but I could be wrong.
Further North reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 4:32 AM, MickD said:With a double uni each line is more than doubled, more like 5 layers of it. We keep talking about "micros" as if that describes the guides. "micros" are available from about 2 to 5.5 mm, so there certainly are combinations of lines/leader/knots that will work with some of these and combinations that won't work with the smallest ones.
Good point about the size of the micros. I know the ones on my St. Croix spinning rod are ultra-tiny, but could not say they are 2mm. The rod is a Legend Xtreme from about three years back if that helps anyone. It has zero problems with the 30# Suffix 832 and 8# Co-poly.
My BFS rig is a new Avid X, whatever size those guides are...again, zero problems with the 30# Suffix 832 and 8# Co-poly.
I have the leader tied on with FG knots on both those rods.
Turkey sandwich reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 11:25 AM, Further North said:Good point about the size of the micros. I know the ones on my St. Croix spinning rod are ultra-tiny, but could not say they are 2mm. The rod is a Legend Xtreme from about three years back if that helps anyone. It has zero problems with the 30# Suffix 832 and 8# Co-poly.
My BFS rig is a new Avid X, whatever size those guides are...again, zero problems with the 30# Suffix 832 and 8# Co-poly.
I have the leader tied on with FG knots on both those rods.
Not sure about how micro the guides are, but I have Avid X and a 2017 Legend Elite that also use micro guides and have very little trouble with uni-to-uni connections using 30# 832 to #8 - 12# Hybrid. The only micro guide rod that I have that gives me some trouble is my one remaining Rage, and even that isn't too bad. The FG really seems like the ideal knot, but it also seems like a knot that'll take me 10 minutes to retie on the water if need be, so in the practical world of cost-benefit analysis, I've stuck with the Uni and still enjoy good castability and knot strength. I think any reasonably slim connection knot works, but the ability to tie it well is probably the most important thing, regardless of guide size.
J Francho reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 9:44 AM, MickD said:If your rig casts long enough without going to really small guide sizes, then there is no need to, or no priority in using them.
Totally agree, Mick. 
Further North reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 2:48 PM, Turkey sandwich said:The FG really seems like the ideal knot, but it also seems like a knot that'll take me 10 minutes to retie on the water if need be...
For me, the trick to the FG was to tie a lot of them.
I would guess that...exclusive of getting out the new leader and whatever hardware I am going to tie to the end of the leader...i can do one in about 5 minutes on the boat.
j_blaze14 reply :
try the improved alberto, the fg is getting beatup coming in the first guide at a 90 angle. fg knot once its tightened properly it gets this like 3/4" stiff portion of line, the alberto is more compact and just a bit wider. if that fails, try a dark 20# braid with no leader.
Further North reply :
On 10/17/2017 at 2:48 PM, Turkey sandwich said:Not sure about how micro the guides are, but I have Avid X and a 2017 Legend Elite that also use micro guides and have very little trouble with uni-to-uni connections using 30# 832 to #8 - 12# Hybrid. The only micro guide rod that I have that gives me some trouble is my one remaining Rage, and even that isn't too bad. The FG really seems like the ideal knot, but it also seems like a knot that'll take me 10 minutes to retie on the water if need be, so in the practical world of cost-benefit analysis, I've stuck with the Uni and still enjoy good castability and knot strength. I think any reasonably slim connection knot works, but the ability to tie it well is probably the most important thing, regardless of guide size.
You've got my wheels turning...
One of the rods I've been using is a Rage...but I'm running 50# braid to 30# Tyger Leader over an FG knot...and I'm throwing some...unique...baits at toothy fish...keep in mind the difference between the FG and other knots as line and leader diameter increase...
DroneFisher reply :
Blood knot to braid issues with micro guides...Do these other knots help? I have always used the blood knot and didnt think about micro guide applications. I think the blood knot, from my experience, would work - if tied correctly.
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