Weightless Finesse Setup (Baitcaster)? 2024
mrcimon reply :
Looking to get a weightless finesse setup.
Curently thinking of pairing a:
Curado 70
St. Croix Legend Medium XF 6'10"
I'm open to suggestions and not locked into any specific brand. I do like St. Croix rods and Shimano, but I have a few other brand for some setups. My budget is max is currently equipped.
Edit: I'll prob be pairing it with 8lb Braid. My goal is max distance as I shore fish.
NathanDLTH reply :
If your goal is weightless plastics/finesse at the most a medium, I’d even consider a medium light. Reel is a solid choice, however I don’t think 8lb braid on a baitcaster is a good idea. Braid especially on a baitcaster has a tendency to dig into itself. I’d do 15-30 lb braid then tie a leader on.
jbrew73 reply :
If you are comfortable with a longer rod consider something 7’+. I personally like 6’10”-7’ but I’ve found I can cast weightless trick worms better on longer rods. If the shore is clear of obstructions go longer, trees and overhanging limbs go shorter.
Stephen B reply :
Nathan and Jbrew bring up good points. I would consider going with a ML from St Croix for your application and consider a longer rod which aids in longer casts.
islandbass reply :
As mentioned already I second the use of a higher # braid. Remember for its strength braid is very thin in diameter. I recommend a quality 30# braid. And guess what, it is the diameter you sought, of 8# test.
20# braid is hit and miss. Some anglers can handle it and most can’t. They’ll experience line dig up the yung yang because they don’t know how to deal with it nor have they taken the time to learn how to minimize it.
So I can’t stress or recommend enough that you use 30# braid. You still might encounter line dig, but it will be less often.
This is just my opinion, but if your cover allows you to get away with it, I’d be daring and go medium light in power. If not medium is okay.
Be sure to post pics of your finesse set up.
Further North reply :
I wound up with a 6'10" Avid X MLXF and an Abu Garcia LTX for what you are looking to throw.
...I've also got a couple other rigs (both local custom builds) that work well for this, one of which has the Curado 70 reel on it. Works great.
Trivette reply :
Daiwa Tatula SV TWC reel and Tatula 7' med power rod......
burrows reply :
On 9/17/2018 at 3:32 AM, mrcimon said:Looking to get a weightless finesse setup.
Curently thinking of pairing a:
Curado 70
St. Croix Legend Medium XF 6'10"
I think you’re on target. now you just have to pull the trigger.
Jrob78 reply :
St. Croix rods generally fish fairly heavy. I would go with a different rod, something in a ML or a M with a really soft tip. If your rod is too stiff you won't be able to cast light baits well.
Bass_Fishing_Socal reply :
I hate to say it but curado 70 might not be your best reel for the job, but that dpends how familiar between you and the reel. Don't get me wrong the curado 70 is a nice reel and can cast a mile even light lure but for user friendlier I would op for magnetic reel especially those Daiwa with SV spool.
For rod, it depends how light you wanna go for. Trick worm and Senko 4-5" are weight above 1/4oz so any M rod with 1/4oz lure weight should be able to cast those just fine. If smaller than that like finesse worm or any 4-6" worm you might have to go down to ML or any rod with 1/8oz lure weight. The softer the tip, the easier and further you can cast, but you loose somewhat ability to control fish and ability to apply good hookset.
if you are not settle in bait caster, ML or M spinning setup would handle this type of application a lot easier.
TOXIC reply :
I'm gonna preach it again.....Why braid and baitcaster for "finesse"???? I use the best tool for the job and for "finesse" that is a spinning rod and straight mono. Buy hey, that's just me. If I'm throwing braid, I'm not finessing a dang thing, leader or not (no leader for me). I have yet to find a reason to finesse on a baitcaster.
Dens228 reply :
My combination is a St. Croix BassX MH/Moderate, it has a bit of the whippy tip which gives me a good cast with weightless plastics, I've paired it with a Lew's BB-1. I really like the combination
burrows reply :
On 9/18/2018 at 11:56 AM, Jrob78 said:St. Croix rods generally fish fairly heavy. I would go with a different rod, something in a ML or a M with a really soft tip. If your rod is too stiff you won't be able to cast light baits well.
St croix rods don’t fish fairly heavy in my opinion their rods have a very forgiving tip medium fast is fine.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 9/18/2018 at 9:05 PM, Burrows said:St croix rods don’t fish fairly heavy in my opinion their rods have a very forgiving tip medium fast is fine.
I've been using St. Croix since somewhere around '90 to '93. They've all fished "heavy" (or "strong") for the rating, from ultralights up through medium/fast. Never saw a freshwater rod from them that had a "forgiving tip". Have they come out with something different recently? Please clue me in on it. I'd sure like to see it, as I have uses for a rod with that kind of tip. jj
burrows reply :
Retracted
Edited by Burrowsburrows reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 12:49 AM, jimmyjoe said:I've been using St. Croix since somewhere around '90 to '93. They've all fished "heavy" (or "strong") for the rating, from ultralights up through medium/fast. Never saw a freshwater rod from them that had a "forgiving tip". Have they come out with something different recently? Please clue me in on it. I'd sure like to see it, as I have uses for a rod with that kind of tip. jj
How long you have been using these rods to me is not of any importance to me. You could have been fishing theses rods since 88 I really don’t care and I apologize for being so blunt but I do believe I’m entitled to my own opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine and that’s the bottom line I think you’re wrong and you believe I’m wrong we’re both entitled to our own opinion and I don’t believe st croix rods are rated any heavier than they rated and specially don’t believe they have a stiff tip IMO
jimmyjoe reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 1:06 AM, Burrows said:How long you have been using these rods to me is not of any importance to me. You could have been fishing theses rods since 88 I really don’t care and I apologize for being so blunt but I do believe I’m entitled to my own opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine and that’s the bottom line I think you’re wrong and you believe I’m wrong we’re both entitled to our own opinion and I don’t believe st croix rods are rated any heavier than they rated and specially don’t believe they have a stiff tip IMO
You weren't "blunt", and there's no need to apologize. I was hoping you had a line on something I haven't seen yet. But now I see that you're talking about St. Croix in general, as I was. And you're right; you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sorry if I stepped on your toes. I'm interested in finding out the real truth about the gear. I'm not interested in insulting someone, or making them angry. Nothing good ever comes from that. jj
Jrob78 reply :
St Croix has always fished heavier than most other brands, at least in the SCIV and SCV lines, which is what the OP said, even though he only specified "Legend". High modulus graphite also generally fishes faster than lower mod graphite.
bunz559 reply :
I've had a bad taste of light weightless lures on baitcasters. I ordered an Aldebaran and Expride medium light with the worst experience ever. This fairly expensive setup did not do me well at all. Started out with light braid, as advised, do not do this as it digs itself in. I switched to 10lb line and still didn't have much luck. Casting distance was terrible. I have better luck throwing weightless Senkos on a medium heavy setup. I even changed the bearings on the Aldebaran to see if it helped. Anything short of 1/4oz I just turn to a spinning rod now.
burrows reply :
On 9/18/2018 at 11:56 AM, Jrob78 said:St. Croix rods generally fish fairly heavy. I would go with a different rod, something in a ML or a M with a really soft tip. If your rod is too stiff you won't be able to cast light baits well.
So what your saying is if he get a medium he’s actually getting a medium heavy? That’s Ridiculous OP said he’s getting a medium and I think that for his intended purpose that will work.
J Francho reply :
I own around 30 Saint Croixs, and they do run a bit heavier than many other brands. Their M/XF and ML/XF tapers are what you want for lighter baits.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 3:43 AM, Burrows said:So what your saying is if he get a medium he’s actually getting a medium heavy? That’s Ridiculous OP said he’s getting a medium and I think that for his intended purpose that will work.
One: That's not what jrob said. That's something that you're introducing into the conversation. Two: a comment such as, "That's ridiculous" does no good, does not advance anyone's knowledge or understanding. Three: a medium might be what the OP needs, and it might not. He wants information or he wouldn't have posted here. Four: He (or I, or anyone else for that fact) will get many varying points of view here. That's fine. That's how we learn about new things. The OP can sort out what he considers valuable and what he doesn't consider valuable. Five: The reason behind critical thinking is to find out whether you're going in the wrong direction or not. New information can be surprising, welcome, even something that can turn your head around. It helps you. That's the kind of comment people look for: something that helps them. jj
Jrob78 reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 3:43 AM, Burrows said:So what your saying is if he get a medium he’s actually getting a medium heavy? That’s Ridiculous OP said he’s getting a medium and I think that for his intended purpose that will work.
St. Croix does run heavy, as many others have agreed. I was really just letting op know that so he doesn't buy a rod that is too stiff. A M XF might work great for that but I would probably go with a ML for casting weightless finesse worms. Pretty simple, he can do whatever he wants though.
CrankFate reply :
On 9/18/2018 at 6:42 PM, TOXIC said:I'm gonna preach it again.....Why braid and baitcaster for "finesse"???? I use the best tool for the job and for "finesse" that is a spinning rod and straight mono. Buy hey, that's just me. If I'm throwing braid, I'm not finessing a dang thing, leader or not (no leader for me). I have yet to find a reason to finesse on a baitcaster.
This is true. A spinner can’t be beat here. But I swore off spinners years ago. And recommend that for everyone. As far as the braid goes, I rarely fish anything thicker than 15lb test braid on a baitcaster and go all the way down to 6lb. IMO, once you get used to braid, it fishes better than mono, co or fluoro on a baitcaster. I just never understand why people say it can’t be casted. The real problem is tying with it when it’s windy out. Super thin braid is impossible to tie if there’s any wind.
mrcimon reply :
Thanks all for the recommendations and help. I've made a choice, and I will take pictures and post when I receive the product!
new2BC4bass reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 8:13 PM, mrcimon said:Thanks all for the recommendations and help. I've made a choice, and I will take pictures and post when I receive the product!
TOXIC reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 7:46 PM, CrankFate said:This is true. A spinner can’t be beat here. But I swore off spinners years ago. And recommend that for everyone. As far as the braid goes, I rarely fish anything thicker than 15lb test braid on a baitcaster and go all the way down to 6lb. IMO, once you get used to braid, it fishes better than mono, co or fluoro on a baitcaster. I just never understand why people say it can’t be casted. The real problem is tying with it when it’s windy out. Super thin braid is impossible to tie if there’s any wind.
In true "finesse" applications the last thing you want is a no-stretch line like braid. A leader doesn't give you that flexibility. If I'm fishing finesse, I'm not making super long casts either. I get all the sensitivity I need from my setup. Braid just does not fish my style in "finesse". I keep putting it in quotes because everyone has a different definition of finesse.
On 9/19/2018 at 7:46 PM, CrankFate said:
CrankFate reply :
On 9/19/2018 at 11:17 PM, TOXIC said:In true "finesse" applications the last thing you want is a no-stretch line like braid. A leader doesn't give you that flexibility. If I'm fishing finesse, I'm not making super long casts either. I get all the sensitivity I need from my setup. Braid just does not fish my style in "finesse". I keep putting it in quotes because everyone has a different definition of finesse.
This is true. Everyone has a different definition or there are a few different definitions for “finesse.” I consider almost all of the fishing I do for fish that normally run under 5 pounds in less than 40’ of water to be “finesse” fishing, because I fish way thinner and lighter than what is recommended from the rod, to the reel, to the line, to the bait.
BaitFinesse reply :
On 9/18/2018 at 6:42 PM, TOXIC said:I'm gonna preach it again.....Why braid and baitcaster for "finesse"???? I use the best tool for the job and for "finesse" that is a spinning rod and straight mono. Buy hey, that's just me. If I'm throwing braid, I'm not finessing a dang thing, leader or not (no leader for me). I have yet to find a reason to finesse on a baitcaster.
Line twist. Poor flourocarbon line mangement. Slow ratios when burning a bait back from under a dock/target. Swimming/cranking motions are better to baitcast gear. The one advantage of allowing the bait to fall vertically by opening the bail is now achieved with light weight spools running zero spool tension such as SV and Air spools.
TOXIC reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 2:05 AM, BaitFinesse said:
Line twist. Poor flourocarbon line mangement. Slow ratios when burning a bait back from under a dock/target. Swimming/cranking motions are better to baitcast gear. The one advantage of allowing the bait to fall vertically by opening the bail is now achieved with light weight spools running zero spool tension such as SV and Air spools.
I'm not disagreeing with you but just pointing out why it doesn't work for me....
Line twist....I get minimal line twist with mono and about every 3rd trip spool it out to remove what little I do have.
Poor flourocarbon line mangement....I only use Fluro on baitcasters.
Slow ratios when burning a bait back from under a dock/target......I don't "burn" Finesse baits.
Swimming/cranking motions are better to baitcast gear.....I throw Flukes and that's a pretty twitchy, jerky bait on 6lb test mono.
The one advantage of allowing the bait to fall vertically by opening the bail is now achieved with light weight spools running zero spool tension such as SV and Air spools......I'll take your word for it, I've never seen a baitcaster that can free feed line without overrunning.
fishwizzard reply :
I’m still having trouble working out when the line is actually free spooling off spinning reel. Once the lure hits the water, the line is dragged down as well and will be laying on the water while the lure sinks, would not the drag from the water be the same on any kind of reel?
BaitFinesse reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 2:52 AM, fishwizzard said:I’m still having trouble working out when the line is actually free spooling off spinning reel. Once the lure hits the water, the line is dragged down as well and will be laying on the water while the lure sinks, would not the drag from the water be the same on any kind of reel?
I'm sure there is something to this but the argument against free fall of baitcast reels was that it was common to run the spool tension tight to the point where the bait falls in a slow drop. A reel with the spool tension this tight will not allow the bait to fall vertically in the water on free spool. A lot of the "weightless" plastics commonly used weigh as much as 1/4 oz or more and are heavy enough fall vertically while pulling line off the surface.
fishwizzard reply :
I guess I’m still confused, because at no point have I ever left the bail open or the clutch disengaged when the lure is sinking, I follow the lure down with my rod tip or manually strip line If I feel like I want a little more slack before it hits bottom.
I also rarely fish much deeper than say 10-15 feet, so maybe I’m just not fishing deep enough for this to be an issue at all.
Junger reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 3:24 AM, fishwizzard said:I also rarely fish much deeper than say 10-15 feet, so maybe I’m just not fishing deep enough for this to be an issue at all.
That's probably the case. There are a couple spots on my reservoir that drop down to like 30-40 feet along a bridge. I either have to use a spinning set up to let that cast get down vertically at the spot I want, or use a SV type baitcaster so that when the lure hits the water I can keep it disengaged. There's no way I can rip out line fast enough to keep up with the lure sinking without altering it's landing spot.
Pro Pic here:
I would rather the position be "A" with either a spinning reel or SV type set up, instead of position "B" after ripping out line.
fishwizzard reply :
Interesting. I guess I have literally never run into that issue as I can’t think if any spot I fish where I am targeting deeper water close to where I am casting from. When ever this has come up before I never inferred that people were leaving the bail open after the lure lands, thus my confusion.
TOXIC reply :
Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko. For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode. Add to it the fact that if you peel the line off a baitcaster for a free fall you would have to keep your thumb on the spool of the baitcaster or you will over run 100% of the time if you are in freespool. Yes there is a section of line that lays on the water with 2 entry points. 1 where your lure enters the water and 2 where your line from your rod tip lays on the water. Side note....those are the 2 spots I line watch when senko fishing. Using a baitcaster, while you are pulling line off manually to get the free fall, there's a good chance you will miss where you get 90% of your strikes which is on the fall. The point is that a baitcaster pendulums the bait back to you whereas the spinning setup allows for a more vertical fall. There will be some pendulum from a spinning setup because of the water tension as you pointed out (that's exactly why I use 6lb mono) but it will be much less than a baitcaster. My main point is not that you can't fish it on a baitcaster but that you will miss more fish with one. Now don't get me started on the retrieve because that presents a lot more advantages for a baitcaster.
Other finesse techniques like dropshot/shakeyhead/weightless fluke/Ned don't have the same issues but depending on how/where you are fluke fishing, sometimes you want a freefall.
GeekFisher reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 6:49 PM, TOXIC said:Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko. For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode. Add to it the fact that if you peel the line off a baitcaster for a free fall you would have to keep your thumb on the spool of the baitcaster or you will over run 100% of the time if you are in freespool. Yes there is a section of line that lays on the water with 2 entry points. 1 where your lure enters the water and 2 where your line from your rod tip lays on the water. Side note....those are the 2 spots I line watch when senko fishing. Using a baitcaster, while you are pulling line off manually to get the free fall, there's a good chance you will miss where you get 90% of your strikes which is on the fall. The point is that a baitcaster pendulums the bait back to you whereas the spinning setup allows for a more vertical fall. There will be some pendulum from a spinning setup because of the water tension as you pointed out (that's exactly why I use 6lb mono) but it will be much less than a baitcaster. My main point is not that you can't fish it on a baitcaster but that you will miss more fish with one. Now don't get me started on the retrieve because that presents a lot more advantages for a baitcaster.
Other finesse techniques like dropshot/shakeyhead/weightless fluke/Ned don't have the same issues but depending on how/where you are fluke fishing, sometimes you want a freefall.
That being said, you can still atenuate the retrieve disavantage of spinning by choosing 6ish:1 spinning reels. People often oversee the importance/possibility of choosing a suited ratio.
NHBull reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 3:34 AM, Junger said:That's probably the case. There are a couple spots on my reservoir that drop down to like 30-40 feet along a bridge. I either have to use a spinning set up to let that cast get down vertically at the spot I want, or use a SV type baitcaster so that when the lure hits the water I can keep it disengaged. There's no way I can rip out line fast enough to keep up with the lure sinking without altering it's landing spot.
Pro Pic here:
I would rather the position be "A" with either a spinning reel or SV type set up, instead of position "B" after ripping out line.
As your aware, we're I fish there is always wind. I think I can achieve an A- by adding loft to the cast and let nature do its thing. Surface tention will still add to the pendulum effect, but it is a reasonable compromise. Of course this only works in open water
On 9/20/2018 at 7:23 PM, GeekFisher said:That being said, you can still atenuate the retrieve disavantage of spinning by choosing 6ish:1 spinning reels. People often oversee the importance/possibility of choosing a suited ratio.
If you use your rod to move the bait instead of the real, the differences fade. There are still tons of guys that prefer slower speed BC's. I am not one, but recognize the fact. I usually use my rod to move the bait and high speed reel to pick up slack
J Francho reply :
Why is the assumption that spinning reels take up less IPT than baitcasters? You might want to look at the facts here. My 6:1 2500 reel takes up over 35 IPT.
Junger reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 6:49 PM, TOXIC said:Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko. For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode.
Do you have a schedule or something of your seminars? I'm very interested! Do BC's alter the fall trajectory because of the spool tension? If so is that something you think a SV spool would alleviate?
TOXIC reply :
On 9/20/2018 at 9:59 PM, Junger said:Do you have a schedule or something of your seminars? I'm very interested! Do BC's alter the fall trajectory because of the spool tension? If so is that something you think a SV spool would alleviate?
Any seminars I give now local are at the Cabela's in Gainsville or the Bass Pro in Hampton. I have been in Hooker Tackle a couple of times as well. I gave a lot of them when I was on Pro Staff for Bass Pro. I now work for a Rep Group and get sent all over the country for both stores so I never know which location I will be at or what the schedule is. Cabela's doesn't use their smallish tanks for demos. I will be in the Cabela's in Gainsville, VA for their Spring Events more than likely but I will be repping products other than GYCB. Always free to talk about them though.
As for your question, yes it is the spool tension that you have to overcome by hand stripping the line out to get a straight fall. One thing I didn't mention in my earlier post was that the line while on the water between the 2 points I mentioned will also feed horizontally dropping the lure at the point where it enters the water. Any drag on a baitcaster spool will intensify the pendulum.
mrcimon reply :
So the gear is in, after doing some more reading. I've spent more than I wanted but ran it by the girlfriend and she was cool (phew). Did some more reading about the Daiwa SV spools (already have a Zillion SV TWS on another rod which I love) and there ability to toss light weight. Read about some rods, and was looking for something incredibly sensitive, and this is what I came up with. Bonus money well spent, all my other combo's are $400 or less. This will be the only exception ever(for the foreseeable future at least). Next investment is a boat.
Spooled up with 8lb Seaguar InvizX
Jrob78 reply :
Nice combo!
fishwizzard reply :
Very nice dude!
Bass_Fishing_Socal reply :
Congrat, super nice setup there.
jbrew73 reply :
You will no doubt be pleased with that setup. Never mind all that crazy talk about spinning reels. ????
Matt_3479 reply :
On 9/21/2018 at 4:14 AM, mrcimon said:So the gear is in, after doing some more reading. I've spent more than I wanted but ran it by the girlfriend and she was cool (phew). Did some more reading about the Daiwa SV spools (already have a Zillion SV TWS on another rod which I love) and there ability to toss light weight. Read about some rods, and was looking for something incredibly sensitive, and this is what I came up with. Bonus money well spent, all my other combo's are $400 or less. This will be the only exception ever(for the foreseeable future at least). Next investment is a boat.
Spooled up with 8lb Seaguar InvizX
Awesome set up! Let us know what you think of the 852c. Might have a line on a 853c at a great that I was debating on pairing with the shimano aldebaran for a finesse casting set up. Little heavier but figured still might work nicely.
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