ANTI-spinning reel line twist theory....could it work?? 2024
The Rooster reply :
I mainly use spinning reels for baits that I either do not crank much such as free falling weightless worms or topwaters that I move with the rod, or for inline spinners that twist the heck out of the line. So it's either hardly any twist from the first two bait types, or a LOT from the last one.
I have tried a lot of things to fight line twist such as bending the wire on the spinner so it doesn't turn as much or using ball bearing swivels, winding the line onto the spool in specific ways (label up, label down, rolling off bottom, rolling off top like a baitcaster) and mostly it's all failed. I still have twist and some reels are worse than others.
I now have a bottle of KVD line conditioner to try, but have not done it yet.
Then this little idea hit me awhile ago.....if you can't get the line NOT to twist when it's coming onto the reel then why not work with it instead??
Imagine if there would be a way that I could make an inline spinner turn in the same direction that the rotor on the reel is turning while winding back in the line. Like two kids twirling a jump rope. The reason it doesn't twist the rope with all that turning is that it's going in the same direction at both ends. So something along those lines, if I can make the spinner do this then while the reel is twisting the line retrieving it, the bait will be undoing it at the same time on the other end.
My idea is to try to bend or warp the blade in some way so that it always causes the bait to rotate in the same direction, the way I want it to turn.
The reel is always going to twist line as it's being retrieved. Inline spinners are almost always going to rotate anyway as they are being retrieved, and it's a 50-50 shot at which way they turn, left or right, I'm just going to try to guarantee they only twist left, or right, whichever way it happens to need to go. So if I can make them work together then at least it would be less twist. If it doesn't work, who knows, I might end up getting more thump from the blades and more bites as a result. It can't hurt to try. What would it do, twist line worse?? I can hardly imagine worse than I already have seen. What do you think??
**EDIT** I'm going to take inspiration from boat motor props with the cupping of the blades to catch water. If I can do this to make the blade rotate in the desired direction then I think this has a shot at working. Who knows, it might turn out to be a good way to make the bait rise up in the water or not rise as much too, if nothing else, just like a prop does to a boat for planing out by lifting the bow or stern. Hmm.....got some tinkering to do, then some testing.....be springtime before I can put it to the real test though. :-[
BASSclary reply :
Getting the lure to rotate at the same speed as the line would be a challenge. Every reel is different.
RandySBreth reply :
Most guys that use spinners a lot (Trout guys) already figured out a way to deal with line twist from spinners - either braid or fused superline, then a ball bearing swivel, then a leader tied to the spinner. Your line still gets twisted, but it really doesn't do the horrible same things mono does.
I'd still like to hear the results of your testing though.
Bassn Blvd reply :
In jump rope, the rope isn't turning/spinning. The arms are turning.
Locked reply :
All you have to do is hold the spool facing the reel, and wind the line on the same way the bail arm is spinning.
Skip to 1:27 where it is explained
islandbass reply :
I still think that the line will twist. The way I address the line twist with inline spinners is that I build mine with the swivel on.
I commend you on your attempt to think out of the box. That was cool. 8-)
Alpster reply :
When you pick up to move to another spot, let out 75 yards of line behind the boat and tow the line without a lure. If you bank fish, stretch the line out on the ground and reel it back up through pinched fingers. It's the only thing that works. The line WILL twist, so you have to un-twist it. JMHO
Ronnie
Grey Wolf reply :
Keep us informed , it might help to get us through winter.
The Rooster reply :
QuoteGetting the lure to rotate at the same speed as the line would be a challenge. Every reel is different.
It won't, I know that. There will still be twist, just maybe not as much.
QuoteMost guys that use spinners a lot (Trout guys) already figured out a way to deal with line twist from spinners - either braid or fused superline, then a ball bearing swivel, then a leader tied to the spinner. Your line still gets twisted, but it really doesn't do the horrible same things mono does.I'd still like to hear the results of your testing though.
Thanks for that info. I've not yet tried superlines so maybe that's the answer.
QuoteIn jump rope, the rope isn't turning/spinning. The arms are turning.
I believe you're wrong there. Take a long rope or extention cord and turn it on one end like a jump rope. Do it by yourself with no one on the other end. In just a few turns you have twist. With a good bit more turns you have twist bad enough it begins to show. With someone on the other end doing this in unison with you, there is no twist. The rope does turn. As it goes up it is rotating upside down from it's previous position. As it comes down again, it's right side up. Without two people, only one end does this and creates twist. Two people allows the rope to turn at both ends and negates any twisting. Also, if you do this with a short enough rope or cord, say 10' long or less, then you will see that the other end will turn with your turning as well, and the rope/cord will create a spiral in the air as the other end tries to keep up with your end, but it will always be about 1/2 a turn behind.
Now imagine that the long rope is your line, and you have about 100 feet of it out. You'd have to actually stretch out a rope and try this, or ruin a good extention cord to do it. Using regular fishing line will work, but you see the twist effects only after it's happened and gotten bad enough it will wrap on itself. Using the larger rope or cord shows you why and how it's happening before it gets really kinky, it's easier to see what's going on with the line itself that way. Instead of the wide arcs you'd swing with your arm in jump rope, turn it in short fast circles like the bail of a spinning reel will do. Watch how fast it kinks up since the entire thing cannot turn at once, same as a fishing line with a bait that does not rotate, the other end stays stationary while the reel end rotates fast and furiously. Line twist abounds!! I tried it with a 10' extention cord held still on one end and it twisted it up good, the end in my hand actually tried to untwist itself after a few spins by spinning in my palm. So then I tried it with some of my wife's yarn using about 10'. After about 50 - 60 turns I let the line hang down in a loop and it began to try to twist and wrap around itself. It most definitely was twisting. It's a soft material too, unlike mono that is probably a bit more stiff. I'd try some mono but I don't have any here that's loose. Need to get some for that experiment I guess.
QuoteAll you have to do is hold the spool facing the reel, and wind the line on the same way the bail arm is spinning.
Skip to 1:27 where it is explained
I thought of this a while back. Tried it too but it didn't work. I positioned the spool in front of the reel so that it wound directly from the line spool to the reel's spool coming off and going on in the same direction. Made very little difference really. Seamingly on one spool of line it will work very well, and on another it will not work at all. I think that would have to do with the way it was spooled from the factory. I don't know how it was originally wound onto the spool for selling. So taking it off in possibly a different way than it went on would produce twist automatically. Based on that, I may not EVER be able to get twist out of the line by doing simple things during spooling or while fishing (other than dragging line as one person has suggested, so far that's all that's ever worked for me too).
QuoteI still think that the line will twist. The way I address the line twist with inline spinners is that I build mine with the swivel on.I commend you on your attempt to think out of the box. That was cool. 8-)
I'd like to build some of my own spinners, just so I can have custom colors, as well as possibly a built in swivel. Until now, I've just used a ball bearing snap swivel and changed spinners as I wanted a different color. Seams that the swivel, regardless of how freely it will spin when held in your hand, still lets the line twist up. Maybe it's these Pflueger reels I've been using for the last 3 years.....I never had this much trouble with the Abu Garcia Cardinals I had before them, and I never used to use a swivel with a spinner at all then :-? (Got a new Shimano Symetre now, maybe I won't have trouble anymore 
).
QuoteWhen you pick up to move to another spot, let out 75 yards of line behind the boat and tow the line without a lure. If you bank fish, stretch the line out on the ground and reel it back up through pinched fingers. It's the only thing that works. The line WILL twist, so you have to un-twist it. JMHORonnie
This is what I'm doing now, and it's the only thing that works. Guess I still will have a backup plan incase the spinner idea doesn't work very well.
QuoteKeep us informed , it might help to get us through winter.
Hmmm.....winter might be over here before I even try it. Guess I could run down to the river to try out a few of them inbetween wind chills of 20o like it is here today. ;D
J Francho reply :
Seems the simplest solution is a quality swivel.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
Alpster's right, the best you can hope for where line twist is concerned is to manage it and minimize it.
Raul reply :
I 'm not the greatest fan of snap-swivel combos except for in-line spinners, a good quality snap-swivel reduces notably the line twist.
J Francho reply :
QuoteAlpster's right, the best you can hope for where line twist is concerned is to manage it and minimize it.
I agree, but he's talking about lures that inherently twist the line. The only good way to manage that is a swivel.
You want to see twist? Side-spin casting a centrepin will wreck a spool in minutes, without swivels. I use two in my terminal rig - one to mange the twist from the cast, and another to manage the leader twisting in current.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
QuoteQuoteAlpster's right, the best you can hope for where line twist is concerned is to manage it and minimize it.I agree, but he's talking about lures that inherently twist the line. The only good way to manage that is a swivel.
You want to see twist? Side-spin casting a centrepin will wreck a spool in minutes, without swivels. I use two in my terminal rig - one to mange the twist from the cast, and another to manage the leader twisting in current.
This is why I prefer Panther Martin in-line spinners. The blade turn very freely minimizing twist. Roostertails are the worst and Mepps are in the middle IMO.
farmpond1 reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteAlpster's right, the best you can hope for where line twist is concerned is to manage it and minimize it.I agree, but he's talking about lures that inherently twist the line. The only good way to manage that is a swivel.
You want to see twist? Side-spin casting a centrepin will wreck a spool in minutes, without swivels. I use two in my terminal rig - one to mange the twist from the cast, and another to manage the leader twisting in current.
This is why I prefer Panther Martin in-line spinners. The blade turn very freely minimizing twist. Roostertails are the worst and Mepps are in the middle IMO.
Yes, I like Panther Martin's the best. I disdain Roostertails for both line twist and because half the time I can't get them to even spin at all-especially at lower retrieve speeds. I'm no lure designer but why don't more spinners employ a weighted keel to keep their bodies from turning?
The Rooster reply :
Some Roosters have a body that's triangular shaped, which I think must be to act as a keel. There are also a few models that have the blade attached the same as a Panther Martin as well. But I generally use the traditional ones since I can get them without having to order them, they're cheap, and there's loads of colors available. I've tried cupping the blade some to make them spin more easily, which does work and adds thump to it also, but it also really cranks up the line twist too. This is why I thought that I might be able to adjust it so it only twists in one direction, the same way my rotor is turning.
Hey J Francho.....what is this --> Side-spin casting a centrepin?? I've never heard of it. I know it's unrelated to my question here but was just curious.
ROCbass reply :
have you tried any inline spinners with an offset line tie? this should eliminate twist because with an offset tie, you're pulling from slightly above the spinner's center of gravity instead of in line with it's center of gravity, which allows the wire to spin with the blade and twist your line.
The Rooster reply :
None from the factory but I have made my own by bending the wire on the Rooster's frame just below the line tie. It didn't work, body still kept spinning. Maybe I didn't bend it enough. Looked sickly bent to me though, was completely out of line with the center, but that's only 1/8 inch or a little more out. I wonder if the overall size of the bait and blades will affect it much?? I use everything from 1/16 oz sizes up to the 3/8 oz ones, with plans to get some 1/2 oz or more too.
ROCbass reply :
Here's one with a factory offset line tie. I can personally attest that that I get virtually no line twist with these, and pike love 'em.
http://www.luhrjensen.com/products/spoons--spinners/shyster
The Rooster reply :
OK, where you would tie the line at on that lure is a lot farther out of center than what I was able to bend the line tie out to on the Roosters. That might work better. Thanks for the link.
ProCraft Joe reply :
Why not fish them on a baitcaster instead?
The Rooster reply :
QuoteWhy not fish them on a baitcaster instead?
I do some of them but below 1/6 oz (that's less than 3/16 oz) they don't cast very well. 1/8 and 1/16 are impossible to throw on my reels unless they are spinning reels.
B-Dozer reply :
Someone posted last summer about closing the bail by hand, instead of reeling it closed. I tried it, seemed to help. I also either let the line out behind my kayak w/o a lure, or on land and reel it in when the twist show up.
The Rooster reply :
I'm religious about closing the bail by hand. Now that is. Have been since reading it on here a couple of years ago.
NBR reply :
Unless reel design has gotten much, much better twist is an inherent part of a spinning outfit. Currently I don't have a spinning reel less than 15 years old so mine aren't very up to date. I admit I don't use my spinning gear as much as my bait casters but I can't remember the last time I had to drag line to get the twist out.
In my opinion twist comes from a very few reasons.
1. You put it on with twist. Use care when you put the line on the reel. After I start I check for twist after a few cranks.
2. Your bait is spinning. Make sure soft plastics are rigged straight and don't twist. For inline spinners I put a BB swivel on the bait then I have it ready right out of the box.
3. You crank with the drag slipping. If you use the drag to let out line when a fish surges it almost assures you will get some twist. I tighten the drag and back reel. If you want to see how bad this twists line just loosen your drag and crank with it slipping.
4. Something is wrong with your reel. Get it fixed or replace.
Bass don't make huge runs so back reeling is usually not a problem. Pike make longer runs and can be a problem but my only issue has been some barked knuckles.
Salt water fish are a different issue and there I use the drag.
Nick reply :
As far as the spooling process, there is no correct way to put "non-braid" spinning line on unless you take the reel spool off and then get the spool to rotate just like any baitcaster spool which never has line twist when spooling.
To accomplish this you can rig up a spooler at home with a varialbe drill, a drill bit and some shims to place around the bit. Depending on what size spool hole diameter you have, you'll have to play around with the size of the bit. I often wrapped some tape around the bit to thwart any damage to the reel spool. The shims, bit and tape hold the spool in place while the drill is turned on forward. Slowly fill the reel spool with line that comes of the bottom or top of you new line spool. Placing a bit of weight from a book or magazine over the line between the spools may help you along the spooling process as well. This process works and will never result in any line twist whatsoever. HOWEVER, inherent in the casting process with spinning tackle is the dreaded spiral created by the casted lure flying without much resistance, or the twist caused by some lures such as spinners underwater. For this ascquired line twist, one has to pay attention, allow the lure to spin a couple of times after each cast, and always close the bail by hand. Last, for spiiners use a quality swivel.
scrutch reply :
After reading your original post Rooster, a thought (or two) came to mind. What are you planning to do to control the speed at which the spinner blade turns? Is this what you mean by tweaking the blades? It seems to me that there's a point at which the spinner blade turns faster than the bail and actually "overtwists" the line.
In theory, the perfect setup would be a spinner that twists line at the same rate that the bail is coiling line.
Could it be that some spinner blades are turning in the correct direction already but are pitched to spin at too high an rpm? Could it be that the cheaper in-line spinners that are notorious for line twist are pitched in the backward direction and magnifying line twist?
I think it will be a challenge controlling the speed due to all the different blade and lure sizes.
Maybe there's an optimal pitch that all blades could be manufactured to that will provide the correct spin direction AND speed.
Will that pitch provide a good pulse in the water that attracts fish? Maybe there's a "natural frequency" for spinner blades.
Interesting topic. Good luck.
The Rooster reply :
On the Roosters I've been used to using I've noticed they spin in both directions. It's a toss up which way they turn when you start the retrieve.
And they also do not spin anywhere near the speed of the rotor on the reel. I'd say they are as much as 5 times slower at least.
My only intention was to try to make the bait turn in the same direction as the rotor. It won't fix it all, but at least it would undo some of it, and also by not turning in the opposite direction at least it won't be compounding the problem. I don't think I could make it spin at the same speed as the rotor though.
Spinning reels are going to have line twist no matter what. I've experienced a severe amount in my estimation though. The type where it jumps off the spool and wraps around itself as soon as you open the bail. It ends up wrapped around the shaft under the spool and requires removing the spool to fix. It coils on itself out on the water and tangles all over the guides. Those sort of problems. I don't remember having them so much in the past, and it could possibly be just from the way I've been putting the line on too. For years I always laid the spool on the floor, label up, and wound line on. I had line twist but never so bad I couldn't manage it, and back then I never used a swivel with the baits either, just tied straight on. Then I started reading all these alternate methods of putting line on and began trying them all. Since then it's been a nightmare, and even using a ball bearing swivel on the baits doesn't seem to help that I can notice. I'm going to try the method I saw in the youtube video someone posted earlier to see how that goes, maybe that's all I need to do to fix it. But I'm still going to experiment with the direction of turn on the Roosters too.
The Rooster reply :
OK, final post here. Last night I put some new Berkley XL, 8# mono on the Symetre reel using the method shown in the Youtube video link, having the line come off the spool and onto the reel in the same direction. Then I respooled the Pflueger Trion reel with what was left on the roll.
Within about 30 cranks on each reel I had line twist so bad it was wrapped up on itself hanging out in front of the reel, and then around the reel too when I had to let go of it to attempt to fix the loose wraps. So, that method doesn't work any better than any other I've tried.
I ended up just holding it tightly, winding it on, not caring if it twisted or not, and then liberally soaking the spool with KVD line treatment. As far as I know, there's no fix for this, it's just going to happen.
**EDIT** I said that was the last post but that wouldn't be very fair to Mr. KVD to try his product and not give any kind of report of how it affected this. After I made the above statements I tried the rod out in the back yard just practice casting.
Today is a very windy day here where I live. Probably about 15 to 20 MPH winds. I had a 1/4 oz lure with the hooks removed tied on and tried some practice casting. The line does seem to have relaxed some since last night. There's none of the jumping off the spool that I've seen in the past. I know line can conform to the spool as it sits but it's only been about 15 hours since I put it on and it seams very relaxed more than what I would have thought it would be after only that short a time.
It does try to coil on itself some but it's very weak and falls out easily when I straighten it up as far as I can see. I did have one fairly bad wind knot but I contributed to that by TRYING to make it coil so I could see how badly it would do so. I wound a loop up into the spool by not holding the line tight, then casted it out. The cast didn't make it all the way down to the loop so I pulled line off until the loop fell off the spool. Then tried to make it coil around itself with all that slack line. It did, but not bad, so I started winding it up and since I had so much out I ended up with a tangle that pulled tight before I could fix it and had to cut it off.
I had wound just a little extra line onto the spool last night so I could make practice casts with it so now that it's cut out I'm down to a full spool now.
So far I'm pleased with the KVD stuff, though I have not used it beyond just about 20 minutes of practice in the back yard. That doesn't tell me anything much other than that I can spool fresh line and treat it with this stuff and expect it to behave a lot better than before, but that's the whole point to me so I'm happy with it. Being so windy I feel like I did get to see how it will work a little better than if I had just been out there on a calm day. I was hitting 60 to 70 feet casts by giving it all I could into the wind. The lure would land and the slack line would be in the wind and still didn't go crazy trying to twist.
The KVD stuff does leave a little film on the line though. Feels almost like soap residue. But that's OK, if it helps it cast and doesn't tangle like crazy I can live with that just fine. Maybe I put too much of it on the line?? I don't know. All I can say is I saturated the spool with it and let it soak in. I had tried to wind it on through a soaked cloth at first but it was not working at all and line was coiling all over the place and tangling so I gave that up and treated it after I was done loading the spool.
BassThumb reply :
QuoteWhen you pick up to move to another spot, let out 75 yards of line behind the boat and tow the line without a lure. If you bank fish, stretch the line out on the ground and reel it back up through pinched fingers. It's the only thing that works. The line WILL twist, so you have to un-twist it. JMHORonnie
I'm with him on this one.
For those that wade, walk to the riffle at the head of a large, deep pool in relatively fast water, face downstream and let the current pull out 40 or 50 yards of line. Let the line unspin in the current for a few minutes and reel it back up SLOWLY thru pinched fingers as Ronnie described. It's a easy fix and it works wonders.
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