Were you paying attention? 2024

Catt reply :

Greg Hackney just won the Forrest Wood Cup, below is his discretion of the winning pattern over at flwoutdoors.com

Hackney didn't just throw the 1/4-ounce spinnerbait, he also used a finesse worm on a 1/8-ounce Strike King Scrounger jig, an 1/8-ounce buzzbait, a 5-inch Ocho stick worm, which he wacky rigged, a jerkbait and a 1/8-ounce Mini-King spinnerbait. On his reaction baits, he used 17-pound test Cajun fluorocarbon line.

All of my better fish today came off a hard break. This place had everything current, mixing water and structure. And to sweeten the pot there were mayflies in the overhanging trees. This all looked good but it seemed wherever there was a hard bottom is where the better fish were. Where there was mud, there were short fish.

Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

Has the light gone off yet?

EastMarkME reply :

Good stuff Catt. I do see the pattern... however.... its surprising to see the 1/8 jig and 1/8 spinnerbait. Much more common to see these guy refer to using lures heavier than I generally throw rather than lighter.

I realize the winning pattern wasnt about the bait or color...cant help but notice that though.

I have been spending alot of time learning the breaks and deeper structure on the lake. FishForDollars blunt (great) post about getting deeper structure or you'll never get better kicked me in the *** to stay deeper yesterday. I naturally migrate to visible shallow structure being a prior LM/pond only fisherman. These lakes in Maine are much deeper too.

I know at some point it will translate to more fish. I am more comfortable out there already deeper watching the graph some more in what used to seem like No Mans Land. ;-) Starting to feel like Im more in touch with the bottom even deep. Caught 2 in 18' on a tiny hump last nite...for me thats a big deal mentally. LOL

Im determined. ;-)

Mark

Sam reply :

You always search for the patter.

Wood along the shoreline; docks along the river's edge; points with grass; and so on.

Hackney found the best pattern for the tournament and used it to his advantage. All the other guys were seeking the correct pattern, too.

Great post Catt. What I found to be of most interest was the size of the baits. I think we throw baits that are too large and to go to a smaller presentation usually happens after we use up most of the day throwing the larger baits, and then it can be too late.

Thanks for another informative post.

P.S. This is an ***. Hackney is from Louisiana. LSU wins the CWS and now we are heading to football season. An ***, I am sure.

Catt reply :

Quote

P.S. This is an ***. Hackney is from Louisiana. LSU wins the CWS and now we are heading to football season. An ***, I am sure.

I missed that pattern

Willzx225 reply :

I agree with everyone that this is a great post. Finding the prevailing pattern for the conditions is the main key in successful bass fishing if you ask me. There are no secret baits that catch fish in areas that there are no fish. Plain and simple.

While I agree with what Sam said about using smaller baits and not going to them until it is often too late, I do think it had more to do with the environment then the competitors just downsizing to get bites. I think they had a few things that we need to focus on that pushed them to using smaller baits. First is that it is a river system and most (not always of course) of the time smaller baits prevail due to the typically smaller forage. Secondly, they were fishing a body of water where a 3lber is a very good fish, one that could make you a hero. But this is all just my opinion

skillet reply :

Point made !!!

skillet

JuniorFisherJJ08 reply :

Location is always a big key anytime you fish. In the ohio river the more ''finesse'' you go the better the fishing gets mainly because the water is just so clear.

CATT , your trying to say what he threw/color selection didn't matter? That's a false statement. If your look at what he threw Spinners/Jerk baits they all represent the main forage of shad this time of year. As for the jig n trailer those always works on rocks''hard bottom''. With the abundance of shad this time of year and the mix of his location combined is what won him the forest wood cup.

****EDIT****

What about the article on the first page?

www.bassresource.com/fishing/weekend-bass-fishing.html

Were you paying attention?

D4u2s0t reply :

my questions, and i'm seriously asking not just trying to disagree (i value your input, and enjoy reading your posts. thanks!)

1. if lure selection doesn't matter, once he found the sweet spot why did he keep changing lures

2. once you find a good area, should you not take depth into consideration? a buzzbait will work just as well as crawling something off the bottom regardless of depth? sounds to me like he was trying to cover all depths. i know that bass will come some distance to take the bait, but suppose the fish are at 15 feet, wouldn't it make more sense to choose a bait that gets down to 15 feet?

3. why in some sweet spots will certain baits work and others won't, if lure selection is not important? i can throw certain baits all day in some areas that produce nothing. change it up, and start catching fish.

thanks, and i look forward to the responses!

Catt reply :

Lure selection would not have mattered if he were not in the proper location

When selecting lures always cover top, middle, & bottom of the water column and try to establish a lure preference. Hackney used 6 different lures so there was not clear cut lure preference; some times you just gotta mix it all up.

The key pattern was

Prime structure: hard bottom present; did not mention what type of structure

Current: present

Mixing water: another break line

Dudes that structure fishing 101

Bankbeater reply :

This is how its been in a fairly large pond I have been fishing lately. It doesn't matter what bait you throw at them, but you have to get it along the weed line or the bass will not touch it.

islandbass reply :

This is a great thread. As a shorebound angler, combined with the limited types of structure I can access on the lakes I fish (eg, worthy drop offs, etc.) let me see if I really understand the point of this.

The point is that GH found right structure to fish, the structure in that section of water that was not only retaining fish, but retaining the bigger fish. It just happened to be a harder bottom for this occassion.

Also, the other things that this structure contained, ie, the moving water, mayflies were good but secondary to the hard bottom that made his location ideal to fish for the tournament.

There must be something to the harder bottom that makes it more attractive to bass than similar structure without the hard bottom. From my own personal fishing experience, I can say will confidence that I have noticed the same thing, but I still don't know why. Can anyone explain why a harder bottom tends to be more productive?

There are valid points on both sides of lure selection mattering or not. However I don't think either side can be completely correct while the other is completely incorrect. I believe the challenge for us is to figure out when it does and make the appropriate adjustments to capitalize on catching them. I wonder if stepping down (if the cover permitted) to 8-10# fc line would have enticed even more bites.

Catt reply :

Let's examine another lure vs. location

Larry Nixon was in excellent shape to make a run at win but ended day 3 or 4 with only 3 bass for 1.07 lbs, and granted he lost a pound for a short fish which would not have helped.

He had an excellent location because it produced 25 keepers for himself, his co-angler, & Lefebre. His lure selection was spot on with because he stated I would catch one and noticed several more following it.

Even with his vast knowledge of adjusting to changing conditions no lure selection produced a bite. Solution change locations but in Larry's own words I have no back up location

Regardless of lure selection without location you're dead in the water

SaintsFn reply :

Quote

P.S. This is an ***. Hackney is from Louisiana. LSU wins the CWS and now we are heading to football season. An ***, I am sure.

Hmmm what are you talking about? *** about what?

Tin reply :

Catt I'm sorry but I think you are a little off on this one. Location was a part of it but the lures were huge. Smallies are very aggressive creatures and reaction baits are the key (buzzbait, jerkbait, scrounger, and spinnerbait). If he got a fish to come up and short strike or could not hook up he would throw the finesse worm on the drop-shot or the 4" Ocho to get them to it again. I would say taking advantage of the smallmouths' naturally aggressive behavior with reaction baits that allowed him to cover water (he covered about a half mile a day according to a couple articles)were the key factors.

D4u2s0t reply :

Quote
Lure selection would not have mattered if he were not in the proper location
When selecting lures always cover top, middle, & bottom of the water column and try to establish a lure preference. Hackney used 6 different lures so there was not clear cut lure preference; some times you just gotta mix it all up.

The key pattern was

Prime structure: hard bottom present; did not mention what type of structure

Current: present

Mixing water: another break line

Dudes that structure fishing 101

you didn't answer any of my questions. also, if lure selection is not important, which is the whole point of your post, why would you have to cover all the water to "establish a lure preference".

Catt reply :

Tin

Hackney did randomly cove a lot of water; he covered multiple locations with the same ingredientsa pattern. You can be assured that once he figure out hard bottom was key he wasted no time on soft bottoms.

Nixon did not duplicate locations so therefore regardless of lures selection, that alone was useless.

D4u2s0t

1. if lure selection doesn't matter, once he found the sweet spot why did he keep changing lures.

Because there was not clear cut lure preference; some times you just gotta mix it all up.

When selecting lures always cover top, middle, & bottom of the water column and try to establish a lure preference.

No one is saying lure selection is unimportant but you can't catch what aint there

Tin reply :

Stick to largemouth Catt and re-read the article.

Catt reply :

Yelp there no need to learn structure; ya just gotta buy the right lures

ptomacbass reply :

Lure selection is definately important. Sometimes the fish will hit a deep crank, but won't hit a football jig. Sometimes, a fish will hit a football jig but not a deep crank. This seems to be even more true when fishing for smallmouth.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

Don't you think to catch fish you need to:

1. Find the fish

2. Choose a bait

3. Present the bait properly to initiate strikes

in that order? Each step has multiple options making many combinations that will get strikes. Obviously in a tournament setting time is of the essence and you don't have all day to experiment. You play the averages based on your experience under similar conditions.

Dalton Tam reply :

Woohoo go hackney and LSU!

Needemp reply :

Quote
Catt I'm sorry but I think you are a little off on this one. Location was a part of it but the lures were huge. Smallies are very aggressive creatures and reaction baits are the key (buzzbait, jerkbait, scrounger, and spinnerbait). If he got a fish to come up and short strike or could not hook up he would throw the finesse worm on the drop-shot or the 4" Ocho to get them to it again. I would say taking advantage of the smallmouths' naturally aggressive behavior with reaction baits that allowed him to cover water (he covered about a half mile a day according to a couple articles)were the key factors.

I agree with you Tin! This is not a black and white issue. Location is everything and lure selection is everything. You can be in the right location using the wrong lures catching very little or you can be using the right baits in the wrong location and catching nothing.

Tin reply :

If it were not smallmouth I would agree with Catt. But smallies are a whole different story.

EastMarkME reply :

So if we all buy 1/8 oz baits we will all win tournaments ?

OK, I got it !!

Mark

The_Natural reply :

Obviously, if you aren't on fish....your bait doesn't matter. However, if you are on fish...your bait can have a sizable impact on how well you cultivate from your spot. See the Ultimate Match Fishing match between Boyd Duckett and Kelly Jordan. Prime example. They were out on a hump/dropoff, and Kelly was throwing his fluttter spoon, and boyd was throwing a different spoon. Kelly owned him. It wasn't even close. I don't think you can say the bait doesn't matter; I think the majority of professional anglers would disagree with that. I do agree that your spot takes precedence over your bait, but bait selection isn't far behind.

Blue Streak reply :

Quote
Tin
Hackney did randomly cove a lot of water; he covered multiple locations with the same ingredientsa pattern. You can be assured that once he figure out hard bottom was key he wasted no time on soft bottoms.

Nixon did not duplicate locations so therefore regardless of lures selection, that alone was useless.

D4u2s0t

1. if lure selection doesn't matter, once he found the sweet spot why did he keep changing lures.

Because there was not clear cut lure preference; some times you just gotta mix it all up.

2. once you find a good area, should you not take depth into consideration? a buzzbait will work just as well as crawling something off the bottom regardless of depth? sounds to me like he was trying to cover all depths. i know that bass will come some distance to take the bait, but suppose the fish are at 15 feet, wouldn't it make more sense to choose a bait that gets down to 15 feet?

When selecting lures always cover top, middle, & bottom of the water column and try to establish a lure preference.

3. why in some sweet spots will certain baits work and others won't, if lure selection is not important? i can throw certain baits all day in some areas that produce nothing. change it up, and start catching fish.

No one is saying lure selection is unimportant but you can't catch what aint there

Catt how do you know all of this?

EastMarkME reply :

All ball bustin aside...great thread. 'Something' has to be first consideration. It is clearer to me now that the first priority is location...everything else comes after.

Seems everyone agrees on that part.

Mark

Blue Streak reply :

Quote
Yelp there no need to learn structure; ya just gotta buy the right lures

Or you could just fish structure with the right lures where there are not any bass.

Needemp reply :

Quote
If it were not smallmouth I would agree with Catt. But smallies are a whole different story.

Well Tin, I do disagree with this statement you just made. I went back and re-read your original post (in which I agreed with) and I do not see how your statement applies to smallies and not largies! Largies, although not usually as aggressive as smallies, are aggressive. Maybe I missed something you said, but you through me for a loop!

Catt reply :

So it was all lures and the above statement was nothing but interesting information?

Got it, select your lures and then go find a location to match

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
If it were not smallmouth I would agree with Catt. But smallies are a whole different story.

Tin, could you elaborate? I'm not disagreeing -possibly the opposite. I'm intrigued. What have you seen?

This might just need to be another thread. Not disagreeing with Catt's premise here either. Just that there are differences between the two species.

Daniel My Brother reply :

Quote
Obviously, if you aren't on fish....your bait doesn't matter. However, if you are on fish...your bait can have a sizable impact on how well you cultivate from your spot. See the Ultimate Match Fishing match between Boyd Duckett and Kelly Jordan. Prime example. They were out on a hump/dropoff, and Kelly was throwing his fluttter spoon, and boyd was throwing a different spoon. Kelly owned him. It wasn't even close. I don't think you can say the bait doesn't matter; I think the majority of professional anglers would disagree with that. I do agree that your spot takes precedence over your bait, but bait selection isn't far behind.

I guess I remember this episode differently. I thought Jordan positioned the boat so that Duckett couldn't get a cast at the hump/dropoff...which would support what Catt's saying.

But it's been a couple of years since I saw this episode...

Needemp reply :

Quote
Yelp there no need to learn structure; ya just gotta buy the right lures

Quote
So it was all lures and the above statement was nothing but interesting information?
Got it, select your lures and then go find a location to match

"Only by pride cometh contentionProverbs 13:10"

D4u2s0t reply :

Quote
All of my better fish today came off a hard break. This place had everything current, mixing water and structure. And to sweeten the pot there were mayflies in the overhanging trees. This all looked good but it seemed wherever there was a hard bottom is where the better fish were. Where there was mud, there were short fish.
So it was all lures and the above statement was nothing but interesting information?

Got it, select your lures and then go find a location to match

I don't think that anyone is saying that lure selection is MORE important than structure. Obviously, if you're not on fish, you can't catch fish. But if you're in an area that's holding fish, and you know it, NOW lure selection becomes very important. If lure selection was not important we would not go out with tackle equal to our weights. (granted the bait monkey is no help there). But if you've ever fished an area for a while and not caught anything, switched baits and then started catching, that goes to show that lure selection, though secondary to finding fish, is still very important. If you're throwing topwater plugs, and the fish are at 15 feet, don't expect too many hits. Just like if the fish are at 2 feet, and you're crawling the bottom at 20 feet, same idea. Yea, you may get the aggressive fish that comes out for it, but getting the right bait in front of the fish is important.

Catt reply :

Is this not exactly what I said?

Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

You take away the structure you have nothing

1st Structure

2nd Break Lines

3rd Cover

4th Lure Selection

5th Catch Bass

D4u2s0t reply :

Quote
Is this not exactly what I said?
Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

You take away the structure you have nothing

but the part you're leaving out, and a part that is important, was that it WAS about lures. If it wasn't, one bait would have been tied on, and there wouldn't have been any need to switch them. First, is to find the fish. 2nd is to choose an appropriate bait. Saying that any bait will work just as well once you find the fish is kinda silly.

Catt reply :

The use of multiple lures was because the only thing consistent was changing lures; some undoubtedly worked better on one location over another.

The consistent was current, mixing water and hard bottom structure.

D4u2s0t reply :

Quote
The use of multiple lures was because the only thing consistent was changing lures; some undoubtedly worked better on one location over another.
The consistent was current, mixing water and hard bottom structure.

so if some work better than others in a given location, how is lure selection not important? i've seen you go so far as to give advice to people about what baits to use, and even recomended certain colors. if it's not important, why not just say "use whatever you have tied on, it will work just as good as anything else".

Matt Fly reply :

Why yes, I was paying close attention.

Enough to know that Greg said any over hanging limbs close to the water with rock meant mayfly hatches. Those with soft bottoms meant lots of small fish. Better fish was found in association with hard bottoms.

The key to winning tournament was location of "SWEET SPOTS".

Greg used 20 rods. Greg said bass would be hitting the buzz bait for 5 minutes and they wanted that no more.

Ike was making 3 cast paralleling the banks and switch baits. Greg was doing the same. I remember early twitters day one, Ike covered a 100 yards in 5 minutes, with 10 baits.

Greg put all his eggs in the basket at the classic, went against the grain and went largemouth hunting. Not this time.

Greg noted, prefishing, that the he saw 2 inch ghost minnows, blue gills, warmouth perch, and crawfish in the areas of mayfly hatches.

Greg said he didn't know if the smallmouth were rising up to eat the larve or the baitfish was eating the larve.

The different baits he used, covered the many species feeding in those areas.

That same pattern could be duplicated in thousands of areas to catch small fish, keying in on the "sweet spots", hard bottoms was key to catching keepers.

Gregs choice of baits just mimiced what he saw in practice as to which was feeding on larve.

Knowing the baits wasn't the key to winning the CUP, knowing where to use those baits was.

Blue Streak reply :

To be successful you have to get them both right. One is as important as the other. You can waste a lot of time in the wrong place or using the wrong bait. When you get them both right, life is sweet.

cart7t reply :

Quote
...
Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

...

You can't start refining your lure presentation until you've located the fish. Whether they are on structure or not, finding the fish is the key. Buck Perry did it by dragging spoon plugs around following breaklines at different depths till he caught one. After he caught one he stopped and fished the area more thoroughly with different lures until he found the bait that worked best. If nothing else bit, he moved on. Of course, had Perry been on a lake that had little bottom structure but lots of cover in shallow water and the fish were located in that shallow cover, he'd probably not have much luck dragging a spoon plug around.

I'd be far more interested in the thinking processes Hackney used to come upon those areas vs his lure selection and presentation afterwards.

Matt Fly reply :

Greg said he found the areas in practice on sight. Remember, the rivers were clear during practice, thats when he observed the several different species of bait in the water.

Greg also mentioned throwing a swimbait in the clear water and having success in those areas during practice.

cart7t reply :

Quote
Greg said he found the areas in practice on sight. Remember, the rivers were clear during practice, thats when he observed the several different species of bait in the water.
Greg also mentioned throwing a swimbait in the clear water and having success in those areas during practice.

Technically, if you use the definition of structure as given by this site.

Changes in the shape of the bottom of lakes, rivers, or impoundments, especially those that influence fish behavior. This is probably the most misunderstood word in bass fishing. Structure is a feature on the bottom of the lake. Some examples of structure are creeks, humps, depressions, sandbars, roadbeds, ledges, and drop-offs. Some examples that are not structure: a stump, tree, or brush pile (these are cover).

Hackney technically wasn't fishing a different structure than anyone else but rather a change in bottom composition that was causing the better fish to locate to that position to take advantage of the smaller bait fish that were feeding on a mayfly hatch. It's possible that the hard bottom related to more trees along shore that the mayflys were hatching from but I don't think that I'd call this a tournament win due to structure fishing. Obviously, location was the key but that's true regardless of any lake, stream or river you fish in.

In virtually any tournament, the winner almost always comes across a place or places (location) where there are more fish and more larger fish than other places.

Catt reply :

Structure: hard bottom present; did not mention what type of structure other than shore line.

Current: areas between moving current and slower current is a break line

Mixing water: another break line

Cover: over hanging trees which means a shoreline another break; the shadows caused by the over hanging trees form another break line.

Structure fishing 101

TommyBass reply :

Quote
Is this not exactly what I said?
Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

You take away the structure you have nothing

1st Structure

2nd Break Lines

3rd Cover

4th Lure Selection

5th Catch Bass

True that..... Have you guys not ever pulled up to a good spot of fish (whether it be structure, break line, or cover), and caught them on basically anything you threw? Changing and catching bass on different lures dosn't prove anything other than the bass may have got accustomed to him throwing another one. Ive fished brush piles on drops before, caught a few keeprs on a jig and the bite stop. Throw right back with something else and immediately get bit... I don't think so much that what I threw mattered, its how I threw it and from what angle. Its not necessarily the lure if you hit it right. The wrong lure with the right presentation is much better than the right lure with the wrong presentation. Im not going to say that I have never seen a day where a lure or color seem to matter, but its far lower on the list of my priorities than finding the good fish to begin with.

cart7t reply :

Quote
Structure: hard bottom present; did not mention what type of structure other than shore line.
Current: areas between moving current and slower current is a break line

Mixing water: another break line

Cover: over hanging trees which means a shoreline another break; the shadows caused by the over hanging trees form another break line.

Structure fishing 101

Looks more like an observant fishermen who saw what he needed to see to key on the fish. He further narrowed the better areas by trial and error

Catt reply :

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote

Quote
Is this not exactly what I said?
Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

You take away the structure you have nothing

1st Structure

2nd Break Lines

3rd Cover

4th Lure Selection

5th Catch Bass

True that..... Have you guys not ever pulled up to a good spot of fish (whether it be structure, break line, or cover), and caught them on basically anything you threw? Changing and catching bass on different lures dosn't prove anything other than the bass may have got accustomed to him throwing another one. Ive fished brush piles on drops before, caught a few keeprs on a jig and the bite stop. Throw right back with something else and immediately get bit... I don't think so much that what I threw mattered, its how I threw it and from what angle. Its not necessarily the lure if you hit it right. The wrong lure with the right presentation is much better than the right lure with the wrong presentation. Im not going to say that I have never seen a day where a lure or color seem to matter, but its far lower on the list of my priorities than finding the good fish to begin with.

I think TommyBass has done a bit of fishing.

If Greg was casting those same lures randomly, would he have done as well?

As a long-time fly-fisher my other thought was the kind of mayflies emerging. Mud produces MUCH less food in rivers (and often lakes) than cobble. the more surface area the substrate offers the better. There are burrowing mays, and one species will burrow in silt, others in gravel. But the vast majority of mayflies live on larger substrate though -cobbles and boulders. The hard bottomed areas, whatever they were, likely were the source of the activity along those stretches.

Put those two together: food production concentrating activity and angle of presentation and you've probably got a big chunk of that scenario.

Mottfia reply :

Looks to me like the biggest factor is the forage.

The forage seems to dictate location and lures.

Mottfia

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
Looks to me like the biggest factor is the forage.
The forage seems to dictate location and lures.

Mottfia

Bluegills, for instance, can be found in dense vegetation, broken veg, wood, open water, shallow or deep. You would choose a diff lure or presentation for each. Water clarity and sky conditions would affect this too.

I think location specifics and conditions dictate method and lure choices first. Then there's finding the proper approach angles. This, with method/lure choice I call "gettin' in". Trying to match forage is really difficult, esp with large prey in stillwater -I'd call that part of fine-tuning.

Just the way I look at it.

bigtimfish reply :

I am not the person to do this, but I think someone should start a new thread about the differences between smallmouth and largemouth. The way they act,feeding habits, lure selections,etc. I would read that from top to bottom.

Mottfia reply :

Quote

Quote
Looks to me like the biggest factor is the forage.
The forage seems to dictate location and lures.

Mottfia

Bluegills, for instance, can be found in dense vegetation, broken veg, wood, open water, shallow or deep. You would choose a diff lure or presentation for each. Water clarity and sky conditions would affect this too.

I think location specifics and conditions dictate method and lure choices first. Then there's finding the proper approach angles. This, with method/lure choice I call "gettin' in". Trying to match forage is really difficult, esp with large prey in stillwater -I'd call that part of fine-tuning.

Just the way I look at it.

You're right Paul. I left my first post alittle broad.

What I meant by "forage seems to dictate location and lures" is that the bass are their because of a high concentration of food. The lure choice also comes from the cover that the forage is around.

The central idea in my way of thinking is food. Its not just to focus on color, its also about establishing a pattern.

Mottfia

Eddie Munster reply :

Well I didn't catch the episode but I am paying attention. Good debate here and for those of us who are still learning ( ) I thank you all. Good stuff.

I choose to key on something different in the statement though and that's the location of BETTER fish. Something to for me to keep in mind; are the big ones there or do I need to move on?

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote

Quote

Quote
Looks to me like the biggest factor is the forage.
The forage seems to dictate location and lures.

Mottfia

Bluegills, for instance, can be found in dense vegetation, broken veg, wood, open water, shallow or deep. You would choose a diff lure or presentation for each. Water clarity and sky conditions would affect this too.

I think location specifics and conditions dictate method and lure choices first. Then there's finding the proper approach angles. This, with method/lure choice I call "gettin' in". Trying to match forage is really difficult, esp with large prey in stillwater -I'd call that part of fine-tuning.

Just the way I look at it.

You're right Paul. I left my first post alittle broad.

What I meant by "forage seems to dictate location and lures" is that the bass are their because of a high concentration of food. The lure choice also comes from the cover that the forage is around.

The central idea in my way of thinking is food. Its not just to focus on color, its also about establishing a pattern.

Mottfia

Gotcha. Agreed. Food is the biggest motivator (outside the immediate spawn). Protection is wrapped in too of course. Sounds like a we're getting down to the functional definition of structure doesn't it.

Catt reply :

Quote

Technically, if you use the definition of structure as given by this site.

Tin reply :

This is exactly why I bowed out of this one.

RoLo reply :

Buck Perry was well-meaning when he coined the term "structure", but he actually reshaped a preexisting word.

Unfortunately, the reshaping of the meaning of "structure" did not stop there. With regard to fishing jargon,

the word "structure" has become a catchall term, a blanket description for every positive lake feature.

At one time or another, I've seen the word "structure" used in association with changes in bottom composition,

mud-lines that separate clear & muddy water, flow-line cleavage between main current and back-eddies,

and even thermal breaks in water temperature. The more meanings and senses that a word takes on,

the more MEANINGLESS the word becomes.

For my own personal edification, I prefer the terms "contour" and "cover", while avoiding the word "structure".

"Contour" refers to the shape (contour) of the underlying terrain, while "cover" is anything that lies atop (covers) the terrain.

For instance, a submerged gravel hump would represent "contour", while car-sized boulders resting on that gravel hump

represent "cover". But if you asked an angler if those boulders represent "structure", be prepared for a labored response.

Today, the word structure inspires more questions than answers, which is counterproductive.

To err on the side of safety, whenever I see the term "structure", what I actually see is : " "

Roger

fourbizz reply :

I knew if I stuck around here long enough I would catch RoLo using a word like cleavage, lol. ;D

Paul Roberts reply :

Roger, I like that. What I like about it is it is much less glamorous than structure (except the cleavage part); a cool headed technician's term for, simply, the lay of the bottom. Anglers love to call anything with fish relating to it structure but some structure may not attract fish at all. And conversely, I've seen lone boulder groups on expansive silt flats holding groups of mature bass taking cracks at passing pelagic prey, and possibly waiting out craws. I've seen LMs living happily in expansive vegetated flats, using slight breaks created by contour because they result in changes in the vegetation not because they were special in any other way. I've even seen mature bass (albeit SM) that roam pelagically and not related to contours. Some LM do this too although LM are somewhat, but not entirely, different energetically.

SoI see fish holding areas (whatever you term them) in a functional sense: locations that produce food, and offer protection from predators and the elements (in most waters and circumstances this includes depth contour changes), and proximity usually matters.

Breaks are places that hold bass either for the feeling of security they offer, or they are localized places that offer an advantage in feeding. If they are close together, great, the more the merrier. But bass do not NEED signposts to travel by. Telemetry has shown this notion, although common, not necessary, and thus not explaining the true function of breaks.

The term "structure" is a large scale term that CAN be useless. Just realize what's important when talking about fish use of it.

Fishing Rhino reply :

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Well I didn't catch the episode but I am paying attention. Good debate here and for those of us who are still learning ( ) I thank you all. Good stuff.
I choose to key on something different in the statement though and that's the location of BETTER fish. Something to for me to keep in mind; are the big ones there or do I need to move on?

I would submit that we are all "still learning". When we think we have nothing left to learn, we deceive ourselves.

Fishing Rhino reply :

Quote

Quote

Quote
Is this not exactly what I said?
Ok all you students of structure fishing

Notice it wasn't about the lures; everything worked proving it was location

No Catt the key was in the lures Greg was matching the hatch

No dude the key was All of my better fish today came off a hard break (a break line)

You take away the structure you have nothing

1st Structure

2nd Break Lines

3rd Cover

4th Lure Selection

5th Catch Bass

True that..... Have you guys not ever pulled up to a good spot of fish (whether it be structure, break line, or cover), and caught them on basically anything you threw? Changing and catching bass on different lures dosn't prove anything other than the bass may have got accustomed to him throwing another one. Ive fished brush piles on drops before, caught a few keeprs on a jig and the bite stop. Throw right back with something else and immediately get bit... I don't think so much that what I threw mattered, its how I threw it and from what angle. Its not necessarily the lure if you hit it right. The wrong lure with the right presentation is much better than the right lure with the wrong presentation. Im not going to say that I have never seen a day where a lure or color seem to matter, but its far lower on the list of my priorities than finding the good fish to begin with.

I think TommyBass has done a bit of fishing.

If Greg was casting those same lures randomly, would he have done as well?

As a long-time fly-fisher my other thought was the kind of mayflies emerging. Mud produces MUCH less food in rivers (and often lakes) than cobble. the more surface area the substrate offers the better. There are burrowing mays, and one species will burrow in silt, others in gravel. But the vast majority of mayflies live on larger substrate though -cobbles and boulders. The hard bottomed areas, whatever they were, likely were the source of the activity along those stretches.

Put those two together: food production concentrating activity and angle of presentation and you've probably got a big chunk of that scenario.

Man, did that just open my eyes to at least one of the reasons my favorite pond produces so many fish, and so many good ones. There is a shelf around the perimeter of the pond that varies from sand, to gravel, to cobble, to stones, to boulders. Most of the perimeter has emergent vegetation. The loosestrife which I detest, but likely has a period where it is beneficial to the fish, the hyacinth, reeds, and a few beds of lily pads. There are also three places that have the very tall, eight to ten feet, grass with the tufts on the top. Similar to cat tails, but taller without the hot dog top.

Away from this shelf, the pond is predominately a silt/muddy bottom with very little vegetation, save for a few areas of cobble.

The only fish that seem to inhabit that area of the pond, as a matter of course, are dense schools of white perch, and crappie.

Paul Roberts reply :

Fishing Rhino wrote:

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very tall, eight to ten feet, grass with the tufts on the top.

Tom, that's Phragmites -I believe it's invasive. (Correct me Roger if need be )

Sounds like you have a very diverse pond, habitat-wise. Very cool, very fun -lots of options for bass and a bass angler to dabble in. Unfortunately, my man-made (and relatively young) ponds I have here are pretty limited that way .

That shelf is the food shelf (Catt's "kitchen" -same term I use for the riffles in a trout stream). That food shelf can exist in many configurations though -not just along shorelines. A key component is light penetration -that's where food chains (worth considering) start from. Add to this diversity of substrate (an ecological term for area in which life can grow on) and you are crankin' out food. Rich, diverse habitats are sheer beauty and get my heart racing.

Always made me wonder if the concept of "beauty" isn't derived from this diversity and complexity -going back to our hunter gatherer roots. (Threw that in for you Tom, and any other wide ranging thinkers ). Imagine hiking a long way and coming to either a desert, or an eden. Which would get your heart racing and your spirits up? I know that feeling and get it every time I see a richly diverse pond and every time I look round the next bend of a rich trout stream.

bassnleo reply :

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This is exactly why I bowed out of this one.

LOL, and why I stayed out.

I have fished the 3 rivers, it's an animal all it's own.

Eddie Munster reply :

Quote

Quote
Well I didn't catch the episode but I am paying attention. Good debate here and for those of us who are still learning ( ) I thank you all. Good stuff.
I choose to key on something different in the statement though and that's the location of BETTER fish. Something to for me to keep in mind; are the big ones there or do I need to move on?

I would submit that we are all "still learning". When we think we have nothing left to learn, we deceive ourselves.

Yep; that's why I included a in my post.

Some very learned individuals here and the truly smart ones have an open mind.

Catt reply :

Structure has become something it never was beforecomplicated

Structure does not have to be a 25' shear drop off or huge underwater humps; structure is quite often subtle changes to the bottom.

Break/break line is "Any distinct line that is made by cover or structure which leads to a change in bottom depth, composition, or cover transition".

Paul Roberts reply :

Catt wrote:

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Structure has become something it never was beforecomplicated

I guess I want to know the 'why', not just the 'what'.

As you've said before whenever I really open my yap... "...fishing doesn't have to complicated." True enough.

Follow Buck Perry's advice and most anglers will be well ahead of the crowd. Strikes me Buck knew a lot of what, but not a lot of why.

RoLo reply :

Quote
SoI see fish holding areas (whatever you term them) in a functional sense: locations that produce food, and offer protection from predators and the elements (in most waters and circumstances this includes depth contour changes), and proximity usually matters.

Exactly.

In addition, a "year-round" holding site would also provide a spawning flat and nursery area,

thereby offering optimal population dynamics and recruitment.

Quote
But bass do not NEED signposts to travel by. Telemetry has shown this notion, although common, not necessary, and thus not explaining the true function of breaks.

Buck's ideas were new in the 60s, but archaic by today's standards, and have since been upended by In-Fisherman telemetry.

Before man created the first artificial reservoir, natural lakes were devoid of submerged bridges, culverts and roadbeds.

All that stuff came later with the advent of manmade impoundments (e.g. TVA). More importantly, there has never been

a single radio tracking study evidencing bi-daily migration of largemouth bass, from deep water to shallow water and back.

Alternatively, different populations of bass live simultaneously in different depth zones. Assuming that all bass

in every depth zone do not feed at once, it's very plausible how this would create the illusion of migration.

Roger

Jeff H reply :

The "why" is a tail you'll chase until you're buried. It can/will vary not only by geographic locations but individual bodies within and on a daily basis as well. Trying to pin down reasons for any wild animal/fish behavior is something that even no expert will have 100% guarantee's on. The fish will never tell us "why"(because technically they can't talk!), and until they do, all is subjective conjecture. If these things were known fact, ALL the fun would be gone from fishing.

Buck Perry bases his shared knowledge of structure fishing on another element people ignore. It is what drives fish movements/migrations "in general". I think this is what he teaches but people tend to focus his observations too tightly. There are always exceptions, and throughout my days of tournament fishing I saw plenty of exceptions. However, I saw way more supportive evidence of Buck's teachings.

In any case, I support Catt's view on all of this.

Jeff H reply :

I would like to ask, before anyone further attempts to discredit Buck Perrys visions/theories/observations/teachings etc., how many have actually read or been taught his complete viewpoint?

And while I agree that maybe his view was not quite the same as whats taken for gospel today, he and he alone stood the fishing world on it's ears with those same views WAY ahead of his time. Because of him, bass fisherman especially, have pulled away from the banks and been hugely successful. I am one of them and while I owe every bit of my existence to God, I owe my fish locating skills to Buck Perry (And Roger Betts who taught me his ways).

As for impoundments and all their respective structural elements, Buck DOES make mention of these in his materials. Every one of us would be a much better angler if you'd go to his site and pick up his "self study" course. It is NOT outdated information and will be the BEST money you EVER spent on your pursuit of fishing success. If you are a shore bound angler, maybe not but it's still worth it for your future and the day you own a boat.

To discredit Buck Perry is like discrediting Vince Lombardi. Maybe their methods are not the gospel today but they both d**n sure laid the foundation of success in their respective pursuits.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
The "why" is a tail you'll chase until you're buried. It can/will vary not only by geographic locations but individual bodies within and on a daily basis as well. Trying to pin down reasons for any wild animal/fish behavior is something that even no expert will have 100% guarantee's on. The fish will never tell us "why"(because technically they can't talk!), and until they do, all is subjective conjecture. If these things were known fact, ALL the fun would be gone from fishing.

I, for one, don't expect 100% certainty. Nature will quickly rip those expectations away -as you mention. But better understandings are possible, the levels of subjectivity fathomed, and those understandings will continue to accrue. I'm willing to consider them and take what I can from them.

Also, I'm not afraid of complexity -it's fun! And ALL the fun can't be taken from fishing bc, as you say, it's just too complex. We'll always find something to have to figure out. We anglers earn our keep out there, just like the bass do. I wouldn't have it any other way.

As to "dis-crediting" Buck Perry... Some of the the things he divined by rod and reel have fallen under better lighting. (Again, 100% certainty isn't to be expected. Doubt Buck did either.) This does not mean his contributions were not, and still aren't, monumental. But...what's been seen since, with technology not available in his day, paints an altered picture, and promises better resolution to come.

On this point, I was going to respond with more info, but I've seen the discussions around Buck's observations turn into something else altogether. So, I'm gonna back off.

Plus, it's been a long time since I read Buck's stuff, and do not presently own it. At your suggestion, I'm going to shut up and order it. Thanks for the reminder.

Paul Roberts reply :

Done! Ordered #2. Thanks Jeff.

Jeff H reply :

Lots of reading there Paul. I hope you enjoy it. I think, given that lots of guys don't like to read, getting through the whole thing can be tough for most. I have not read mine in close to 10 yrs but I'll dig it out and read it again after this season is over. Have plenty of time to read in hunting camp.

Ya know, I really wish I could have met the guy. I get a kick out of his style/sense of humor. Some of the stories he shares just crack me up.

Big-O reply :

Fine Info Catt and most successful fishermen will always hold close to the saying "Find the Fish-Catch the Fish".......with this in mind we can all relate to being in the fish and on an active bite then the fish slow or quit on that bait or presentation. We change it up in that same location and start catching the fish again.....That's the reason we have so many rods rigged with the vast variety of offerings we feel will translate in bites.

Locate the fish and throw the Box at'em, catch all you can with everything you can and move to reproduce your pattern and do it again. Location, Location, Location

Big O

www.ragetail.com

Catt reply :

Consistently catching bass is a process of elimination and duplication. Eliminate patterns and waters that are non-productive and duplicate patterns and waters that are productive.

As for science trying to discredit Buck Perry it has more times than not solidified his findings.

Mottfia reply :

Quote

Quote
SoI see fish holding areas (whatever you term them) in a functional sense: locations that produce food, and offer protection from predators and the elements (in most waters and circumstances this includes depth contour changes), and proximity usually matters.

Exactly.

In addition, a "year-round" holding site would also provide a spawning flat and nursery area,

thereby offering optimal population dynamics and recruitment.

These two quotes might be the simpliest way I have ever seen finding fish holding locations termed but its dead on.

I think we have hit all the complicated reasons of why...so why not have an easy version of the same textbook

Mottfia

Paul Roberts reply :

No one is "trying" to discredit Buck Perry. Buck provided a foundation, if not THE foundation, for modern angling -notably applicable to LMB fishing. But foundations are to be built on, not unquestionable gospel.

Catt reply :

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But foundations are to be built on, not unquestionable gospel.

Very true but some preliminary research is far from unquestionable gospel

Paul Roberts reply :

It will always be 'preliminary' research lol. Working science is more about forming better questions than finding end-all be-all answers. If one is expecting final answers (that 100% certainty), they are in for a lot of disappointment.

I remember my first dabbling in endocrinology, an undergraduate course. I expected to know all there was t know about how the body functioned chemically. What I met was a dry tedious list of all the research that indicated this or suggested that. There were no Answers, just intriguing puzzles, slightly better understandings. What was clear was that there was LOTS more work ahead. Breakthroughs do happen (Eureka!) -that lead to ... much better questions.

If one is looking for ANSWERS, 100% percent certainty, they are on the wrong planet, or maybe stick to collecting stamps. ;D

alleghenybassr reply :

As a local I was paying close attention to what Greg and the others were doing. You certainly won't get any augument out of me on the importance of "structure", but unfortunately in a system such as the Three Rivers, structure is more abundant than the smallies.

While waiting for the Pro's to lock up the Allegheny I stopped and fished some of my structures and as usual most yielded zero and one had fish all over it - which I caught on three different lures. When Greg came up he went up the Kiski presumably because it was a bit cleaner, but he got nothing. It wasn't until he moved around and started fishing the dams that he put together a pattern. These fish move daily (if not hourly) so finding them is far more important than finding the right bait.

What I took away is that you can't get locked onto structure just because it makes sense to you. Too often I waste time in a spot changing lures because I saw layers of breaks and structures that I talked myself into thinking it was a goldmine. Could Greg have predicted that the stronger current pushed the fish further off the dam? (beyond the keep out buoys) More than likely he found a fish through experienced trial and error and then used that to build into a winning pattern. Every pro did the same thing and each came up with a different conclusion - Greg just put together a better puzzle.

This contest was less about structure and more about starting out with an open mind every day and processing enough information in a short period of time (you can't check all spots) to turn it into a good day.

RoLo reply :

Quote
No one is "trying" to discredit Buck Perry. Buck provided a foundation, if not THE foundation, for modern angling -notably applicable to LMB fishing. But foundations are to be built on, not unquestionable gospel.

Make no mistake about it, we all learn from one another, and even at the end of the road, no one knows it all.

I read all Buck Perry's articles in Fishing Facts magazine, and during the 70s, I bought his book called "Spoonplugging"

before the ink was dry. I'm older than most of you fellows though, so I go back farther than Buck Perry.

I cut my teeth on a book called "Lucas on Bass Fishing", published by Jason Lucas in 1947.

Lucas was a brilliant, free-thinking pioneer of bass fishing, whose tenets still hold true today, right down to color selection.

You can rest assured that Buck Perry and Jason Lucas learned a great deal from one another, and so it goes.

The very day I came to Bass Resource, I included my motto at the bottom of every cover page, which I feel strongly about:

"It's not about 'WHO' is Right, it's all about 'WHAT' is Right."

Roger

Muddy reply :

Another thread; printed and into the note book. Thanks, lots of good winter reading and research here. 8-)

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
As a local I was paying close attention to what Greg and the others were doing. You certainly won't get any augument out of me on the importance of "structure", but unfortunately in a system such as the Three Rivers, structure is more abundant than the smallies.
While waiting for the Pro's to lock up the Allegheny I stopped and fished some of my structures and as usual most yielded zero and one had fish all over it - which I caught on three different lures. When Greg came up he went up the Kiski presumably because it was a bit cleaner, but he got nothing. It wasn't until he moved around and started fishing the dams that he put together a pattern. These fish move daily (if not hourly) so finding them is far more important than finding the right bait.

What I took away is that you can't get locked onto structure just because it makes sense to you. Too often I waste time in a spot changing lures because I saw layers of breaks and structures that I talked myself into thinking it was a goldmine. Could Greg have predicted that the stronger current pushed the fish further off the dam? (beyond the keep out buoys) More than likely he found a fish through experienced trial and error and then used that to build into a winning pattern. Every pro did the same thing and each came up with a different conclusion - Greg just put together a better puzzle.

This contest was less about structure and more about starting out with an open mind every day and processing enough information in a short period of time (you can't check all spots) to turn it into a good day.

VERY interesting post.

Quote
These fish move daily (if not hourly) so finding them is far more important than finding the right bait.

Speaks to me a lot about smallmouths. Sounds like smallies I've known in large lakes. Thank you for taking the time to chime in.

Quote
starting out with an open mind every day and processing enough information in a short period of time (you can't check all spots) to turn it into a good day.

Sounds like fishing to me.

Eddie Munster reply :

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Make no mistake about it, we all learn from one another, and even at the end of the road, no one knows it all.

Growing up I found it's possible to learn from someone else doing it wrong.

"Gee my brother got a night in jail for 'borrowing' dad's car, wrecking it while drunk and got his butt busted when he got out. Add that to things NOT to do."

Well put RoLo.

Muddy reply :

SMART GUY; Learns from his mistakes

WISE GUY: Learns from other peoples mistakes

as Tom would say

Eddie Munster reply :

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SMART GUY; Learns from his mistakes
WISE GUY: Learns from other peoples mistakes

as Tom would say

I've been called wise before..........usually followed by something that rhymes with bass. 8-)

Muddy reply :

You are one of the wisest fisherman here, with a knck for explaining things simplying. The Bass thingy; we all fit that at any given moment ;D

Paul Roberts reply :

JeffH wrote:

Quote
...(Structure) is what drives fish movements/migrations "in general". I think this is what he teaches but people tend to focus his observations too tightly.

Very good point. I don't agree that 'structure' "drives" movement/migration, but I do agree that it, or better -the breaks- contains it, or concentrates it.

Jeff H reply :

I didn't say that???

What I said was there is another element everybody ignores that drives movements/migrations. And that, to me, is the weather. When people start talking structure, almost never is the weather mentioned in relation. For me, it's the most important thing I pay attention to before every day/trip I'm on the water.

I don't know exactly what I said there, I'll have to go back and look but I didn't say structure drives movements. ;D

Jeff H reply :

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Buck Perry bases his shared knowledge of structure fishing on another element people ignore. It is what drives fish movements/migrations "in general". I think this is what he teaches but people tend to focus his observations too tightly.

Ok, and by that I meant the weather.

Also, to be clear, I have never drug a "spoonplug" behind my boat trying to locate structure or catch fish. As a tournament angler, I was not allowed to do so. I just took what he taught about structure and weather and melded it into my own approach and way of doing things. For me it was just "when to be shallow and when to be deep" and the weather influences my plan.

Jeff H reply :

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No one is "trying" to discredit Buck Perry. Buck provided a foundation, if not THE foundation, for modern angling -notably applicable to LMB fishing. But foundations are to be built on, not unquestionable gospel.

Bravo!! 100% ON the money IMO!! Gotta start somewhere. The problem is, he throws a pretty complex mess at you, that obviously can be brought into a easier understanding by applying common denominators of personal experience. As you go, you can break it down to easier understanding. But, it doesn't hurt to engender a little of your own self into it all as you go. Cling to it all as gospel and it might confuse too much.

It's a foundation we all need to begin with, you can't build a house from the top down right??

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