Triggers for pre-spawn/spawn 2024
Catt reply :
If I were to pick the one trigger for pre-spawn/spawn it would be the gestation cycle of the eggs.
The first requirement before a bass can spawn is its eggs must go through a gestation period which is the time required for the eggs to fully develop, until this length of time is reached that bass will not lay its eggs regardless of environmental factors.
J Francho reply :
Gestation wouldn't occur until AFTER the eggs were fertilized. So that would be a POST SPAWN event, LOL.
Females can spawn all summer, with several males, so I'd wager any skein was loosened up long before that. If they don't spawn, they are just absorbed back into their bodies.
Length of daylight, moon phase, and temperature all seem to have tons of documentation supporting their effect on spawn timing.
Bottom line, you gotta be on the water just about every day to see the clues.
Nick reply :
...but learning when a fish is going to lay and going about catching spring bass aren't necessarily related. The best big bass action for a trophy around these parts is the first warming days after winter up until late April. In labeled times, it's referred to as the prespawn period. Big fish are healthy, and feeding, and prefer the warming shallows where most fools (like me) can find and catch them.
paul. reply :
QuoteGestation wouldn't occur until AFTER the eggs were fertilized. So that would be a POST SPAWN event, LOL.Females can spawn all summer, with several males, so I'd wager any skein was loosened up long before that. If they don't spawn, they are just absorbed back into their bodies.
Length of daylight, moon phase, and temperature all seem to have tons of documentation supporting their effect on spawn timing.
Bottom line, you gotta be on the water just about every day to see the clues.
bingo! right on J.
Gatorbassman reply :
Catt, I don't think I would call it a trigger. It's more like loading the gun. You can't shoot untill it's loaded but it may be days or weeks till it's the right time to pull the trigger. 
Tin reply :
QuoteCatt, I don't think I would call it a trigger. It's more like loading the gun. You can't shoot untill it's loaded but it may be days or weeks till it's the right time to pull the trigger.
Bass shoot blanks?
Sam reply :
Catt, I will go with water temperature.
Everything else may have a role in the bedding and laying of the eggs but I still think it is water temperature.
Catt reply :
Gestation maybe the wrong terminology for the length of time required for the eggs to mature to a point where the female will lay them. Development of eggs start not long after the previous years spawn which is why eggs can be found in female bass almost year round.
As for temperature one only needs to study Power Plant lakes to understand that with temperature removed from the equation the bass still experience early pre-spawn, pre-spawn, and the spawn. So how do y'all explain this?
Water temperatures on Toledo Bend are running 44-48 degrees which should be considered winter but the bass are in early perspawn.
ww2farmer reply :
Well up here ice out is a big factor. Then after ice out when things start to stabilize, and we get that one warm spell that gets dark bottom shallow area's water temps up to the low 50's, and , this is the key part, those water temps STAY in the 50's over night and are on gradual rise, it starts a big migration from there staging area. I call this early pre-spawn, because they move to these staging areas in late fall, and over winter there, at least in my lake.
J Francho reply :
QuoteDevelopment of eggs start not long after the previous years spawn which is why eggs can be found in female bass almost year round.
Ok, well that's hormones. What causes the female bass hormones to change? Seems like a chicken or the egg argument to me. That's why its called a life cycle, right? Besides, how are you going to tell whether the female bass is loose or still skeined up?
Or did I just start a catch and keep thread! 
I say get on the water, and observe your fish. 
WRB reply :
I think of pre spawn as the time between cold water winter period and actual seeking out beds. The first or major wave of pre spawners takes place as the water temps raise from the low 50's to the low 60's, at the depth water where the bass intend to spawn.
Changes in water temperature during this time period will shut down the spawn until the conditions warm back up. The calendar has little to do with pre spawn/spawn, unless it happens to coincide with the proper warming water conditions.
Out west we typically get about 3 spawning waves, sometime less depending on weather conditions. This year looks like an early pre spawn/spawn cycle and more than likely late on the east coast.
Keep in mind it take boths male and females to spawn and males don't have full milt sacks or females have rip developed eggs year around.
Tin reply :
If the water is consistently above 50* up here, all that matters is moon phase. I have seen beds in water that was in the low 52-54 degree range. Last spring because of cold rains a lot of lakes did not see consistent 60+ temperatures until early June and most the lakes were spawned out by mid-late May.
Dalton Tam reply :
I've heard that when a female's egg sack begins to have red blood vessels around the sack they are about to begin spawning..... Is this true? and if so I caught a female the other day up shallow when the water temp was around 55 degrees I did clean her and found this... But the watertemps have dropped down to the mid 40s again so if it is true... will they continue spawning or will they hold off until the water reaches that temp again?
Tin reply :
QuoteI've heard that when a female's egg sack begins to have red blood vessels around the sack they are about to begin spawning..... Is this true? and if so I caught a female the other day up shallow when the water temp was around 55 degrees I did clean her and found this... But the watertemps have dropped down to the mid 40s again so if it is true... will they continue spawning or will they hold off until the water reaches that temp again?
So you harvested a female loaded with eggs? :
Catt reply :
If y'all are waiting on temperatures, y'all are missing the early pre-spawn & missing the biggest bass of the season. Big sows are not shallow looking to spawn instead they are here with one purpose in mind FOOD.
J Francho reply :
Who says anyone is waiting? I fish from ice out to ice in.
big t 4488 reply :
when you start to see them shallow right off the end of your dock
Siebert Outdoors reply :
QuoteIf y'all are waiting on temperatures, y'all are missing the early pre-spawn & missing the biggest bass of the season. Big sows are not shallow looking to spawn instead they are here with one purpose in mind FOOD.
I agree with that. Biggest fish I typically catch are in late march or real early april.
CJ reply :
Water temps and photo period are what I believe in. The full moon does seem to trigger a lot of fish to actually get it on but I've seen them spawning when there wasn't a full moon as well.
I really don't think to much about it though. It really hasn't helped my success any where I fish. I consider it prespawn once the water temps hits 50. This is when fish start to congregate and become very active. I have seen fish on the bed here as early as March and as late as early June. Ever year we have different waves so I don't hardly ever have to fish for spawning bass.
cBooms@SML reply :
how would you guys go about trying to determine when the spawn periods (pre and post) occur in a small, shallow pond with dirty to stained water? there arent a lot of big fish, maybe an occasional 2 pounder and the rare 3-5lber. most of the bass are about 6-10 inches. its a community pond with loads of vegetation so i cant get out in a boat and i cant see anything from the bank. what would you guys do?
steezy reply :
QuoteIf y'all are waiting on temperatures, y'all are missing the early pre-spawn & missing the biggest bass of the season. Big sows are not shallow looking to spawn instead they are here with one purpose in mind FOOD.
AMEN, its time to start feeding them !
christine Cellino reply :
The color RED!
Blue Streak reply :
I think tempeture is the biggest factor. And if we don't get some normal spring weather soon our spawn will take place as late as early June instead of mid May. Does anyone else think the spawn will be late in their area because of this cold weather?
Catt reply :
If temperature is the biggest factor the please explain Power Plant Lake where temperature is remove from the equation and the bass still go through early pre-spawn, pre-spawn and spawn.
J Francho reply :
Bass will try to spawn in spite of less than normal situations. Same concept of bass in mud or clay bottom lakes. Just because they can't find suitable hard bottom, they still spawn. I will say that temperature can play a part in northern lakes, as anyone up here will attest. Cold springs = late spawn. Last year, it went from winter to summer in a blink of an eye. Spawn was concentrated to a single week, 3rd week of May, unlike the year before (ideal steady temperature increase) where it was a steady, drawn out process that lasted from early May through July. There is always a smaller secondary, and sometimes tertiary push, but the May/June push is the biggest.
I don't think you can use just one environmental aspect to predict it. One thing's fo-sho: if there are gills on beds, the main push is over.
Blue Streak reply :
Catt power plant lakes are a very special and isolated situation. Those bass have adapted over time, you can hardly compare that to normal situations. I know there are many factors that determine the spawn, but temp has a whole lot to do with when those eggs are ripe. And I have seen bass leave the bedding areas when a real hard cold front hits and the water drops a few degrees.
RoLo reply :
In my view, the two most influential factors of the spawning event are “photoperiod” (above all)
and “water temperature” (essentially coincidental).
For a few years, we lived in an adult community on the north shore of Lake Walk-in-Water, Florida.
We had a private boat ramp and lakefront pier that extended several hundred feet into the lake,
giving me a unique opportunity to learn. On this same waterbody, I’ve found fresh-swept beds
as early as January and as late as June, which represents a six-month disparity!
During this half-year period, water temperatures varied between 25 and 30 degrees,
yet all nesting activity occurred during the period of increasing day-length (Dec 21 to Jun 21).
To my mind, this clearly implicates “photoperiod”
There are several spring-fed lakes in central Florida that maintain a year-round water temperature
of 72-deg F. Bass living in these stable ecosystems receive zero input from water temperature,
yet they spawn unerringly every year during the period of increasing day-length.
To my mind, this only further reinforces the "photoperiod” theory.
As for “lunar influence”, I simply do not know. Based on tidal cycles in saltwater
and menstrual cycles of primates, the moon’s influence certainly seems plausible.
All the same, my own harvest records have failed to identify a correlation tied to lunar phases.
I was relieved to read a similar statement published by the In-Fisherman staff.
Roger
Blue Streak reply :
You use a very good example of the photoperiod. I am curious however about the highest and lowest temp during that 25 to 30 degree swing that you speak of. And also, if that same photoperiod occured on a lake where the temp is a constant 45 degrees, would the bass still spawn?
Catt reply :
The bass are backwards on power plant lakes; instead of waiting on the water to warm up they wait for the water to cool down.
On a certain Power Plant lake in Texas the coldest water at both ends was 82, it was 86 mid-lake and 94 at the discharge; the bass still spawn right on cue.
Here’s another one to chew on; Toro creek located below the Toledo Bend Dam is feed by water from the lake at a depth of 112’ with a current water flow average of 200-250 cubic feet per second. The water temperature on the upper end never rises above the low 50s and yet the bass still spawn.
Paul Roberts reply :
There is no one event. There are multiple events bc it is not linear but a cycle that starts the previous year.
Key events:
Egg maturation -Having the raw materials to get the job done happens the previous year or, in some individuals or even populations during tough conditions, the final "deposits" are made during early spring. This is why the larger fish are more apt to spawn earliest -they can afford it. And small fish are most apt spawn latest. I've seen this in my own (albeit amateur) pond studies.
Photoperiod -Photoperiod changes have direct endocrine effects that goad the process and GENERALLY synchonize the event. Lots of literature out there on this and it's powerful enough to experimentally force spawning events in fish and other animals -with other keys in place.
Temperature -Temperature is critical to cold-blooded creatures, and with fish it is the final push. It allows for body weight gain efficiency, activity required for spawning behaviors, and protects temperature sensitive eggs.
Moon Phase -This appears to be a real effect -the full and possibly the new. It seems to be a cue that allows for a mass synchonization, provided the stage is set (the previous three keys): I've recorded years when spawning occurred on temperature swings, falling in between the moons.
The first two of these keys we can't do much about really (unless you are Flukemaster and can fatten your fish on his private lake). But as far as fishing is concerned, temperature and secondarily moon phase are the things to track. And it has worked, like clockwork, for me.
Catt mentions powerplant lakes, and there are also bass planted far south of their natural range. There are lakes in Central America that never cool down much and have flat photoperiods. Those bass can spawn anytime and have adapted their cues to water level changes. They may spawn over a long seasonal window but what stops them is the need for tissue recovery and growth. Supposedly bass do poorly down there and burn out young. Nature finds a way, at least to a certain degree in that living things didn't come from nowhere, they have a history, and that dictates what they are and what they can do.
Catt reply :
Merci Beau Coup Paul
Blue Streak reply :
Paul in this area when the water hits about 65 and the May full moon occurs at that time the bass just pile up on the beds. It seems to happen over night. Fishing is outstanding when the two occur at the same time.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/6/2011 at 8:45 PM, Blue Streak said:Paul in this area when the water hits about 65 and the May full moon occurs at that time the bass just pile up on the beds. It seems to happen over night. Fishing is outstanding when the two occur at the same time.
I've seen the same thing, and it is CRAZY! The days we talk about for years to come. They are somewhat predictable in that we can know what the cues are, but, nature is as fickle as the weather so we too often get dashed. So much for "clockwork". What's cool is that it's not just us getting our hopes dashed, it's the fish too. I love being in touch. It feels right.
If you know what you are seeing, even if the "big wave" doesn't happen exactly, you can see it scattered about, watch the progression, and still be in the show. Fun stuff. And no two waters play out the exact same way either -even two little ponds side by side. The same biological events are stirring, but the ecological underpinnings differ.
Catt reply :
I think egg maturation is #1 trigger that causes bass to move into pre-spawn and then eventually into spawn. The major misconception is people try to put hard numbers with concerns to temperature or hard dates of the spawn but it can't be done because there are too many variables other than temperature and date. These misconceptions are why many people believe they are fishing the whole pre-spawn or spawn when in reality they have missed a majority of both.
I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause. If one sits around with a thermometer in hand waiting on a mystical number to be reached or watches for certain trees to bloom they are missing out on what the bass are actually doing.
Hyrule Bass reply :
i dunno about all this scientific stuff so much, but the bass in my NoVA pond are full of eggs, but not yet on beds. what stage of the spawn is this? oh and theyre looking to eat too, caught 4 in a 15 minute period yesterday, but they still wont touch soft plastics....
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/7/2011 at 9:26 PM, Catt said:I think egg maturation is #1 trigger that causes bass to move into pre-spawn and then eventually into spawn. The major misconception is people try to put hard numbers with concerns to temperature or hard dates of the spawn but it can't be done because there are too many variables other than temperature and date. These misconceptions are why many people believe they are fishing the whole pre-spawn or spawn when in reality they have missed a majority of both.
I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause. If one sits around with a thermometer in hand waiting on a mystical number to be reached or watches for certain trees to bloom they are missing out on what the bass are actually doing.
That may be -egg maturation must happen before they can drop them. But what controls (or maybe "influences" is better) that? Not all the bass spawn when water temps are “optimal”, that's for sure. Egg maturation due to necessary nutrients (fats esp apparently), previous year photoperiod entrainment possibly, and bedding site fidelity, all likely play roles. But temperature plays a very powerful and apparently pretty consistent role too, or creates a powerful barrier to (at least successful) spawning.
There might be a discrepancy in definitions too. To many anglers, just seeing a bass on a bed may constitute “spawning”. But males will make beds prematurely, and then abandon them. I’ve seen small waves of this activity, but it’s a false start. I’ve also seen big waves of bass –like a majority of a pond’s population (both males and females) –move onto spawning banks, only to drop away again –no spawning having happened.
As far as I been able to find, from lab and field studies I’ve read and from what I’ve been able to document for myself (looking closer than most), the spawn in northern LM is initiated at around 60F: 58F to 62F. And it might be most critical when bass actually get onto the beds. What’s interesting, and telling, is that egg survival studies show mortality spiking sharply around 55F. While these values may not encompass all there is to know about all native strains of LM, it appears to be consistent enough as to cover the majority.
I hear anecdotal evidence about bass “spawning” in much colder water, and this might be so, but there’s likely more to many of those stories. I too have recorded LM’s on egg-filled nests in water as cold as 48F, directly in the bed! And if that was the only day I saw such a fish, I might have concluded that bass can spawn in 48F water. But I had been watching that fish, and many others, for weeks. The truth was, and was so in every such bed I recorded colder than ”normal” temps in, the actual egg dropping had happened after the >58F initiation temps. And such "initiation temps" are not just a number, but stability at that rough number for a certain period of time. This is very much tied to seasonal realities (photoperiod, sun angle, weather, and heat retention -Catt's "coincidence" mention). In those cold beds, severe cold fronts had altered shallow water temperatures drastically. Eggs suffering those conditions most likely die and do not contribute much to the future, generally keeping the majority within the “normal” realm.
I did once observe a small “wave” of new (or possibly second round) spawners arrive and drop eggs at 55F. But this was during a prolonged cold streak that came well after the initiation temps had already been reached. This happened in part as an artifact of their living in a small shallow pond, not able to be buffered from such weather as would have happened in a larger water body. But, it does show that it’s certainly possible. Nature can be “loose” about such things so the more deeply you look, the more deviations you might find. Deviations can allow populations to survive change over the long haul. Most of those deviants fail however, in the short term. And some years almost entire bass spawns fail, regardless of timing. The limitations dished out are very real and many of those deviations, while interesting, aren’t as likely to put a lot of fish in our boats year after year.
As to fishing with a thermometer... You're right, and I tried that. I got temperatures at depth in my study ponds by clipping a thermometer onto a snap and casting it out there. (Sure wished I had dataloggers.) Never caught a single bass doing that. 
More seriously, your point is well taken: fishing got in the way of my observation and documentation, and vice-versa. Mutually exclusive. Bass spawned, even in those small ponds, over a period of weeks. Over all the ponds/small res I looked at, over months. And this is even more so if you include even larger water bodies into your beat. Most people would rather be fishing.
Blue Streak reply :
Paul I am impressed with your research and information, you have made this as understandable as one can. You have put scientific fact to things I have observed over many years on the water. I knew what to look for and when to expect them, but sometimes I did not fully understand why. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/8/2011 at 8:43 AM, Blue Streak said:Paul I am impressed with your research and information, you have made this as understandable as one can. You have put scientific fact to things I have observed over many years on the water. I knew what to look for and when to expect them, but sometimes I did not fully understand why. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thanks Blue Streak (I take it that's a boat?). That and Tommy's "Merci" are true compliments, coming from people who've seen a few things, more than a few times around.
Blue Streak reply :
On 4/8/2011 at 11:11 AM, Paul Roberts said:Thanks Blue Streak (I take it that's a boat?). That and Tommy's "Merci" are true compliments, coming from people who've seen a few things, more than a few times around.
You are right Paul, that is what they called my Pro Craft in my old tournament days. It's blue and it would fly. And I have been around so many times I am now a dizzy old fart. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get together over a beer and have this discussion?
Catt reply :
On 4/8/2011 at 8:07 PM, Blue Streak said:You are right Paul, that is what they called my Pro Craft in my old tournament days. It's blue and it would fly. And I have been around so many times I am now a dizzy old fart. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get together over a beer and have this discussion?
I told Paul that while I would love to fish with him I think sitting around the fire place with a glass of bourbon & a cigar would be far more intriguing.
Thad reply :
I'm with J on this. There are just too many variables involved. We'll never have a definitive answer. It seems nothing ever goes by the book in bass fishing. The more you try to go by the book the more loops are going to be thrown at you. I do pay attention to all of the variables but it still just comes down to time on the water.
Dwight Hottle reply :
Catt wrote
QuoteI told Paul that while I would love to fish with him I think sitting around the fire place with a glass of bourbon & a cigar would be far more intriguing.
I would like a seat at that fireplace just so I could listen to that conversation. I'll even bring the drinks.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/8/2011 at 10:15 PM, Thad said:I'm with J on this. There are just too many variables involved. We'll never have a definitive answer. It seems nothing ever goes by the book in bass fishing. The more you try to go by the book the more loops are going to be thrown at you. I do pay attention to all of the variables but it still just comes down to time on the water.
Practically speaking, you're right. Hindsight has the best chance of being 20:20 of course. What we see in front of us each day is a lot more fuzzy. Each day is a new day, and no one (including the fish) know exactly what that'll bring. Successful fishing is in large part being good at flying by the seat of your pants. Sure feels good though when we can be on the water enough to be on top of things. Just gotta be out there and "noticing stuff". Helps to know what to look for though. And...what those variables mean. That's where the game is played. I was unable to do that by just "getting a feel for it". I had to measure, for myself. Then it starts to become real. That is what those "numbers" are for. And Catt's right, you can't just pull one out of a hat and trust that.
"There is only as much beauty available to us (in nature) as we are prepared to appreciate. And not a grain more." -Thoreau (another noticer of cool stuff).
Yeah, I'd love to sit in on a good chat session too. Both the beer and bourbon sound great. I can smell the ribs now! Would be fun. Be better if we all lived closer. Speaking of that...Dwight, we might be visiting Erie sometime this summer (my wife has family there as I've mentioned before). If the stars align maybe I'll give you a shout and we can get together for something brown -bourbon, beer, smallies mebbe even. Maybe J can make the run too. Think we can we pry Tommy from The Bend?? PARTY AT DWIGHT"S!!!
BTW: I added a bit to my last long post, for a little more clarity.
J Francho reply :
Look at "Posty McPostalot," LOL. Disappears all winter, and now making fishing dates 
:lol::lol::lol:
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/9/2011 at 12:45 AM, J Francho said:Look at "Posty McPostalot," LOL. Disappears all winter, and now making fishing dates
You mean I've lost my BR friendship status already? Who are you, Mr Moderator big pants??! 
Congrats by the way -I think
Hey, in all seriousness it was a heck of a winter. Started with a BIG forest fire -biggest fire priority in the nation then. We lost 170 homes up here. Mine wasn't one of them, but...it's mighty dark and quiet up here at night now.
senile1 reply :
This thread was "pinned" early on and I hadn't noticed that it was still so active until today. Paul, it's good to see you back and posting. I really appreciate your in-depth knowledge of fish behavior.
Blue Streak reply :
You know if you give the old guys a glass of bourbon in front of a warm fireplace we would all be taking a senior nap in about an hour.
I agree about the variables, we can go by what we have learned over the years but you have to be willing and sharp enough to make adjustments throughout the day. Should not get fenced in by too many rules, be flexible and creative I think that may be what seperates KVD from all the rest.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/9/2011 at 2:33 AM, Blue Streak said:You know if you give the old guys a glass of bourbon in front of a warm fireplace we would all be taking a senior nap in about an hour.
I agree about the variables, we can go by what we have learned over the years but you have to be willing and sharp enough to make adjustments throughout the day. Should not get fenced in by too many rules, be flexible and creative I think that may be what seperates KVD from all the rest.
Well, I have almost zilch experience in competitive bass fishing, but from what I can gather and guess, KVD separates himself with his drive, focus, knowledge, research (on and off the water) and rapid assessment. That latter requires the research and knowledge. I remember hearing Gerald Swindle say he wished tournaments could be run without ANY pre-fishing days; Pure seat of the pants stuff. I imagined KVDs response: "What are you nuts?" Pure speculation there.
Hey O' Lucid1!
Catt reply :
What sets KVD apart from the crowd is what made Larry Nixon one of the top 5 angles of all time. Versatility, they both have an uncanny ability to rapidly adjust to changing conditions on the water. Not being able to pre-fish would slow most anglers down but it would only serve as an advantage for a KVD or Nixon…but that’s a subject for another discussion.
That's what makes bass appear to be so elusive is about the time you think you have them figured out they prove to you that you don't.
Blue Streak reply :
I have always believed that there are no hard, fast rules for bass fishing. There are certain things that should work under certain conditions, but not always. That is why it is so important to assess the situation and adjust accordingly.
BUT Catt has posted an excellent topic here about the spawn which is a a complex and confusing subject and we were having a great discussion until I sort of steered this in a different direction. I think maybe it is time we get back on topic. I would love to hear from other members about their experience about the spawn in their area, and what they watch for as a trigger. One thing I am sure of is this whole thing varies greatly geographically. What happens in the south is certainly different from the north. I agree that bass would spawn in extreme conditions, they would have to adapt or they would perish. But I don't think you would have a good spawn or a hardy population. Rolo speaks of bass spawning over a six month period in Florida with a great deal of temperature fluctuation. I don't think that could ever possibly happen in the north or most other places in this country, yet I believe what Rolo says about his area.
And I agree that it takes more than one thing to create a trigger for the spawn. I still believe that temperature is the most influential because bass are after all cold blooded creatures. I think The moon phase is a close second and can really make things pop when a full moon occurs at just the right time. The length of day light is not a big consideration as far as I am concerned because in all of the years I have fished, and all of the fishermen I know not one has told me that you need to be on the water when daylight reaches ten hours and forty seven minutes or so on. I believe that bass will spawn without a change in daylight hours as long as the temperature and moon phase are right.
Catt reply :
Water temperature will not change until daylight hours start to lengthen
“I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause.” I learned that from Roger (Rolo) who has a better way with words than I do.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/10/2011 at 5:13 PM, Catt said:Water temperature will not change until daylight hours start to lengthen
“I think water temperatures are just coincidental; merely something we can easily monitor but is a coincidental symptom rather than the actual cause.” I learned that from Roger (Rolo) who has a better way with words than I do.
True, it is direct sunlight that heats. And "seasons" are most basically about "angle of incidence".
Teasing out each individual climatic/environmental influence must be done in the laboratory, and there is an enormous body of literature on that, if anyone is considering a new career. Heat energy (measured by temperature) has significant direct biological effects. Temperature (trends esp) are worth monitoring. That of all things gives me the most (but certainly not all) information on seasonal trends in fish behavior. In part bc it uses a consistent instrument to measure with. But also bc the biological effects of temperature on aquatic creatures (and other ectotherms) is powerful. And for the day to day, hour to hour resolution we need as anglers, it's the best thing I can use that best appears to coincide with behavior.
Its effect is not entirely static though, (plug in A and get B ) but dynamic. It's a "fluid" world (in military jargon), and you must be able to fly by the seat of your pants. That said, a thermometer, used correctly can be a powerful tool for keeping a bead on fish behavior. Running around with a surface temperature gauge only "scratches the surface".
Blue Streak reply :
One of the things we watch for in this area in the spring is when the night temperatures begin to stay warm. This is when the water starts to warm more rapidly and brings on that wonderful period of pre spawn and spawn fishing.
I think Paul's comment about this whole thing being a combination of events and conditions and not any one in particular may be the most accurate remark.
There may be a big difference in the southern lakes where the water stays warm enough to fish year round as opposed to the northern lakes where they freeze over with several inches of ice for an extended period. It seems that we are looking for different things here than you are in the south.
This all has given me an idea to post a related topic.
And you are right, Rolo does speak with a scientific tongue and his posts are always interesting.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/10/2011 at 10:21 PM, Blue Streak said:One of the things we watch for in this area in the spring is when the night temperatures begin to stay warm. This is when the water starts to warm more rapidly and brings on that wonderful period of pre spawn and spawn fishing.
I think Paul's comment about this whole thing being a combination of events and conditions and not any one in particular may be the most accurate remark.
There may be a big difference in the southern lakes where the water stays warm enough to fish year round as opposed to the northern lakes where they freeze over with several inches of ice for an extended period. It seems that we are looking for different things here than you are in the south.
This all has given me an idea to post a related topic.
And you are right, Rolo does speak with a scientific tongue and his posts are always interesting.
As to latitudinal differences, they exist, but they aren't huge in the larger scale scheme of things. Let's say biologically there are not great differences. Bass are surprisingly similar -less so than I'd anticipated. Ecologically though things are different. The farther north you go though seasonal changes are more marked and consolidated. Ugh...wish I had time to delve back in, but I just don't. This topic has come up before and I'm sure it's been addressed in the past.
RoLo reply :
It wasn't my intention to revisit this thread, but I’ve changed my mind.
Quote“As to latitudinal differences, they exist, but they aren't huge in the larger scale scheme of things.”
Paul, I believe that latitudinal differences play a major role in the grand scheme.
In fact, the impact resulted in the advent of the “Florida-strain bass”,
a special subspecies that accommodates the tropical and subtropical niches.
I’ve spent several decades angling in New Jersey and now live in Florida.
I've been fortunate in being exposed to both northern-strain and Florida-strain bass.
This I can tell you, both strains share many similarities in kind, but on the other hand,
they exhibit noticeable differences. To be specific, the Florida-strain bass is much less tolerant
of cold-fronts, but far more tolerant of high temperatures.
IS TEMPERATURE THE KEY?
In my opening post I stated that I believe that water temperature is coincidental rather than causative.
Since fish are cold-blooded creatures, it stands to reason that water temperature can be too low
or too high for successful incubation.
Water temperatures often swing back-and-forth, which beg the questions:
1) Is the spawn triggered by “initial contact” with a key water temperature?
2) OR, does the key water temperature need to be “maintained” for a given number of hours?
This is often the case in the vegetable kingdom, which paradoxically may also require
a given number of “chill hours”.
3) If the above conditions are met, does a severe pullback in water temperature
abort the spawning cycle?
Degrading all the above, it’s been well-documented that largemouth bass can spawn successfully
in water temperatures from 55 to 75 degrees. Going further, I’ve seen Florida-Strain bass locked on a bed
in water over 85 deg F.
WHAT CONFIRMS THE SPAWN?
What are the visual signs that verity the actual spawn? Does the sight of light-color discs on the bottom serve as spawning evidence?
Buck bass are a lot like buck deer. During the rut, buck deer mark their territory by scraping the bark of several saplings
in their small rut site. During the bedding season, buck bass will sweep several mock beds, which may explain
how their tailfins get so beaten up. Owing to their territorial instincts, “live” beds are normally spaced about 20-ft apart or more.
When there are many beds spaced 2, 3 and 4 apart, it’s most likely the work of one buck-bass marking his territory.
OVERLAPPING STAGES
Bass are most aggressive during the “pre-spawn” and again during the late “post-spawn”.
During the actual spawn though, trophy cows are focused on reproduction and disinterested in feeding.
Although it's rarely discussed, most lakes undergo a generous period in time when all three stages overlap simultaneously.
Bass taken during the spawn that are not actually pulled from the bed,
arm most likely in the pre-spawn or post-spawn stage.
PHOTOPERIOD
Plant life cannot generate its own heat, so it must rely on solar energy.
Fish are cold-blooded creatures and similar to the vegetable kingdom, they too must rely on solar energy.
Although plant growth is limited by air temperature the key growth regulator is “photoperiod”.
I don't think it’s farfetched to believe that “photoperiod” plays a major role in timing the bass spawn.
Though rarely mentioned, there are spring runs in Florida that maintain year-round water temperatures of 70 to 72 deg F.
Examples include Silver Glen Springs, Rainbow Springs and Wakulla Springs.
Bass living in these ecosystems receive no thermal clues as to the timing
of the spawn. Nevertheless, spawning takes place much the same as other area waters,
during the period of lengthening daylight, chiefly during the months of February and March.
In the final analysis, predicting the exact timing of the spawn is like working with a bunch
of pieces from a jigsaw puzzle. The problem is, the funny-shaped pieces come from
several different puzzles
Roger
Catt reply :
The major thrust of this thread and others is not so much about prediction of the actual spawn but to show that bass move from winter mode into pre-spawn mode a lot earlier than what water temperatures would indicate.
To quote an earlier thread
“There are no set reasons for pre-spawn as far as I know; I realized how early that pre-spawn movement started, because somewhere around mid-January every winter, I'd lose my deep fish. What I mean is that I quit catching them deep. I'd be catching them on jigs out in 20-25 feet of water and all of a sudden those fish were gone.
It took me a while to realize what was happening; those fish were just starting to move shallow. The bass would come out of that deep water and start moving shallow, and water temperature had very little if anything to do with it, contrary to what people believe. Most of the time, when these fish came out of deep water, the water temperature could be anywhere from 49 to 50-degrees and they'd leave those deep holes for shallower water”…Catt
This transition to shallow water was not with intent of building nest but finding food; now how shallow these pre-spawn bass move depended on weather stability not water temperature.
Paul Roberts reply :
"Prespawn" is not some set biologically based term. It simply means before the spawn.
If you want to you could say that it begins... when??? It's the "chicken or egg" dilemma. The answer there is the egg -a much older "invention". It's to recognize that this is a very old process, the prime directive is to reproduce, and all "mechanisms" of energy redistribution are directed toward that end. Package this up and you have the current model of a given "species".
If you look for the beginning of something within this cycle, you are not recognizing that it is a indeed a cycle. Gonadal development begins in the late summer/early fall. But this is pre-dated by a cascade of growth hormone spikes that begins shortly after the spawn ends. And then the food has to be available for that growth and development to come to fruition. Not to mention that a given individual has to grow up first –no small feat that simply takes time.
Taking it to ground here:
Anglers tend to be looking for the beginning of the kind of fishing most do or expect: bass willing/able to chase ~horizontal lures in shallow water. But on-top-of-things anglers can catch 'em year round. Such information is now getting around but it takes time and effort to put it to work on your specific waters.
Warmwater fishes are known to start moving shallow right around ice-out, or even prior in some known instances. You would think that this a direct response to photoperiod, and partially is. But...when? Some of this cascade of events occurs the previous year and in many species from plants to insects to fish and mammals photoperiod can induce seasonally appropriate activity. But it doesn't stand alone -other steps in the cycle need to be in place. It's even possible to create experimental "monsters" but that's not the way nature IS. The flexibility, the deviations, that exist do so bc nature is not perfect. It is tumultuous and too rigid a mechanism would fail.
How does this help? Realize that there is a system in place, that you can track, but it's a complex (ancient) system that has built-in flexibility. Collectively it is very wise. Individually...there is a lot of foolishness.
Some observations I've made and feel are pretty sound: The seasons tend to progress surprisingly consistently. I've found this by measuring heating in ponds and found that they heat pretty much the same each year -despite what the weather "feels" like to us. We make LOUSY thermometers -way too subjective. It's SO common to hear anglers lamenting that "winter" just won't let up -"It's STILL "cold" this year". But I've been taking temperature profiles and watching bass behavior progression, and it's pretty much been on track with previous years. We should not trust the mush in our heads. Just bc you have to wear your winter coat today does not mean it's winter.
Water collects and holds heat. It does not give it up easily. The main heater-upper is the sun --angle and duration --and THAT you can bank on. It's been that way for a long enough time to offer some biological consistency.(Otherwise we'd likely still be protozoa fishing for bacteria lol). Even with cloud cover the sun is still at work. I watch and enjoy the "winter"/"spring" see-saw battle but know who's winning -like clockwork. My ponds record it in their heat budgets. Sure there's some variance year to year, but a LOT less than most people realize. Thus actual spawn times are pretty darned consistent.
Although the entire complex mechanism passes through a lot of time (a year) to get there in real life –where you fish -temperature matters in that it is the primary influence on what fish can do in X amount of time. And timing is critical bc there are babies to take care of –"mother" natures primary job.
It doesn’t really matter where the “start” is –the zeitgeber. What matters is understanding and recognizing the progression –its consistencies and vagaries, so that you can know where you are. Otherwise it’s just a bunch of puzzle pieces. (I like Roger’s analogy.) When you start comparing across phylogenetic lines, then you truly are picking up pieces from different boxes. There the complexity deepens.
We're not meant to understand it ALL. Appreciate the process, folks.
Catt reply :
Outstanding explanation Paul
One has to consider more than just moon phases, weather, barometric pressure, seasons, water temperature, egg maturity and so forth. No single factor controls nature alone it's a combination of all of them.
What most anglers don’t understand is bass are controlled by certain environmental (must do) factors.
1. Reproduce effectively
2. Feed efficiently (maximize food intake and minimize energy output)
3. Prosper during extreme seasonal changes
4. Achieve good growth rates by domination of the warmer areas of the lake during the colder seasons.
If you apply these 4 environmental factors to your fishing you will increase your odds of catching not just bass but big bass.
mjones23 reply :
I have personally found through my fishing that once the water temp hits 50 for at least 3 or 4 days the bass will begin spawning even if the temperature drops in the following days/weeks. I was catching spawning bass last year in 43 degree temperatures but for a few weeks before we had a heat wave of 70 degree weather.
RoLo reply :
Good read, Senkosam,
Specifying “lake types” as you did is very helpful.
Your correlation between 'pad size' and a 'topwater bite'
has given me food for thought.
I find it intriguing how the natural events of Mother Nature all tend to dovetail together.
Though two anglers may be observing completely different phenomena,
the odds are good that they’ll arrive at the station at the same time.
Roger
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/14/2011 at 10:23 PM, SENKOSAM said:Not being a scuba diver, I don't know where bass are suspending just before moving into shallower water, but my earliest pre-spawn catches have been in late March in less than 7'. Just after ice out, the flats are bare and the water a bit more clear (though tanin stained) than at higher temperatures that promote suspended algae growth (turning the water a green/brown).
The lowland lakes I fish, consistently show many bass (pre or postspawn, male and female) in shallower water less than 4' and always coincides with weed growth as a primary timing indicator.
I see this from late April to late June year after year, with the majority of big fish caught just prior to or after being on the nest or in a nesting area. Fish in well developed weed beds, not on nests, will charge noisy topwaters from over 5' away; fish on beds I don't mess with but note their presence.
Once pad size reaches maximum diameter, less top water charging occurs and I can only assume that most of the super aggressive bass have left the shallows because water levels are dropping and most are post spawn, feeding in deeper water as usual.
Weed growth always coincides with water temperatures above 50 degrees, as does the presence of shallow bass and prey species which also stage spawns ahead of bass and are easy pickings (possibly another factor in bass migration to shallow water pre-spawn).
IMO I also agree that bass spawn stages always overlap between various populations of bass and depending on environmental changes whatever they are.
Highland, mountain lakes in my area always start later than lowland lakes most likely because many have harder bottoms, ice out is later and the water generally clearer.
That is an interesting observation, and I too see the relationship between cover and prey in early spring. But I also add temperature into the mix. Bluegills are the primary forage where I fish and they are heat lovers, and I've seen hoards of them where there is little cover. These tend to be small 'gills though. It does seem that cover is a requirement for large 'gills -the ones the larger bass target. Having cover in those heated shallows, or maybe heat n those cover areas, makes a spot great.
I see two major events in spring, in relation to the shallows:
-The first movements to the shallows are feeding movements.
-The second are the spawning movements. Rich Zaleski talked about the onset of the spawn marked by a movement AWAY from the shallows by the bass. He believes this is bc bass are relocating from prime feeding locations to established spawning locations (site fidelity).
Your observations about bass being in less than 7fow in early spring mirror some telemetry studies I've seen. The general pattern is a beeline to certain shallow bays, and these of course are good bass and prey habitat -they have cover. It makes sense that they suspend, bc after ice-out, the surface waters are now warmer. Likely they suspend at cover edges, and move up as the shallows warm and growth occurs. This reminds me of the movements to the warmed shallows of salmonids on Lake Ontario's southern shore. A good chunk of the population of salmonids in that immense lake was packed on that south shore in spring. The paper graph images we'd get, of trout, salmon and baitfish just stacked along the south coast were amazing
In the shallow ponds I observe, immediately after ice-out I see somewhat roiled water due I believe to temperature mixing and methane release, then clearing (barring wind), then the algae growth. That cold clear water does appear to be bass-less -although isn't always entirely. I like to see some growth too, which means temps are climbing. Another major factor in both plant and algae growth is sunlight. Big blooms tend to occur after bright periods.
There's a point where heated shallows really consolidate the action, and it is usually with cover too. I try hard to hit this window. The hot periods see-saw with the weather though so it's a game of weather watching, and luck. Then as the water warms deeper, the consolidation laxes and the fishing gets less "intense". This is also the time of temperature stability (enough heated water now) that spawning movements are apt to begin.
Prime spawning areas may be different than feeding areas. Males often choose a prominent cover piece to place a bed against. But too dense cover allows egg stealing 'gills to get too close -thus the sparse cover observations. The individual male bass in my ponds do not make multiple beds over an area. They do often make two side-by-side and I think the female chooses one over the other. This might be a response to the water level changes that commonly happen over the course of the spawn, and/or to female choice as females tend to be bigger and need more water. I have one pond that had a shortage of males (no idea why -maybe catch and kill bed fishing) and females lined up and fought over the males and their beds.
As to highland and lowland, water depth and fertility weigh in heavy there. The clarity is more a symptom than a cause I think. Interestingly there are probably arms/coves on those highlands that behave more like "lowlands".
Roger:
"Though two anglers may be observing completely different phenomena, the odds are good that they’ll arrive at the station at the same time."
Can't find the thumb-up emoticon.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/15/2011 at 2:28 AM, SENKOSAM said:What's even more interesting Roger is that the topwater bite (or just subsurface smack) occurs over certain rocky flats that contain no pads once the pads reach 1/4 size normal diameter and the water clarity is reduced with an increase microscopic algae.
Reduced clarity could be a security thing because nothing swims in the shallows when the water is cold and clear, not even baitfish. Also, on cloudy/rainy days, areas 30 yards from any thickening weed edges produces surface strikes over flats in 5'. These fish are either pre- or post spawn fish because the average spawn occurs in 3' or less in the lakes I fish.
Ralph Manns, who's done a lot of scuba diving, says that shallow bass tend to stay just deep enough to keep beyond visible from the surface. In my ponds, most of the time, the majority of the bass are not visible. They are most apt to be visible during the spawn, and around cover (including dry shoreline cover such as high banks and shoreline trees).
Interestingly, there can be movements during early spring incited by rapid temperature spikes in which masses of bass enter the shallows and seem not to care about being seen. I've seen this well prior to beds being put down (as well as with and without moon-synchronized spawning movements).
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/15/2011 at 3:01 AM, SENKOSAM said:Good read Paul.
The migration factor made me return to the idea that spawn hormones or ripening eggs may have less to do with early spring, shallow bass location and more to do with the food chain spawn sequence. In all lakes I fish the order of species going super shallow to spawn are:
white perch - yellow perch - pickerel - bass - sunfish - catfish - (not sure when fatheads spawn) White and yellow perch spawn in water around 50 degrees; pickerel, above 55; bass above 60.
The first three species are super nutty and school en mass in certain areas. This lasts for a week and bass that come in shallow for the kill might sense this activity, drawn to it prior to their own spawn and nutty, aggressive periods. Once the spawn instinct takes hold, feeding is secondary to finding and bedding mates. Migrations pass each other by and fingerling locations produce more feeding by bass not locked into spawning.
Just a thought...
Frank
I think you are right. That's what I see happening too. In those intense consolidated circumstances I mentioned, there is no doubt what's going on there. It's almost scary. Those bass, esp mature ones, come and go with feeding opportunities.
The spawn on the other hand takes place pretty well distributed around my ponds, bc there is good substrate all along the shorelines of most of them. And once it's up and running, well that's obvious too.
The two "movements" may occur in the same general areas, but the reasons or activity is very different.
BILLYsobx reply :
I believe the moon phase affects tidal bass the most because the tides are either above normal or below. So after they have a neap tide and it starts changing they know their spawning ground will remain full for them to move in and get it over with. I know on our local river the actual spawn is over in by may and started the last week in march
Paul Roberts reply :
Tidal anglers know the affects of water level changes and how bass adapt. And I'd mentioned that water level rises are a major cue for Central American bass to spawn. But water level changes can affect bass in many if not most waters. Big lake smallies, that receive heavy wind and resulting waves, are known to spawn relatively deep as that's where the egg success is highest. There is evidence that UV light penetration affects egg survival in bluegills, and bed depth is one way that gets "regulated". One can imagine that water clarity affects this too.
In my own ponds the bass appear to bed at a certain preferred depth - about 2-1/2fow. And as I'd mentioned they often make two beds. It appears the females choose one over the other. I got an idea why as I began to notice water levels can vary surprisingly over the course of the spawn, with water generally receding after spring recharge. The severity of that depends in large part on the weather. Sometimes it's in the middle of the spawn. One year I watched as the shallower of the double beds lost enough water that the larger females wouldn't use them. They used the deeper of the two.
Contrary though were two El Nino influenced years that brought increasing water levels through the spawn. Bass kept making beds at the two foot mark, which meant successive beds got higher and higher up the banks. And older beds simply got deeper and deeper -enough that I couldn't keep track of the guarding males very well anymore. I measured a rise rate of up to 2inches per day for several weeks. The result was two years of exceptional fry survival, due to the cover offered the fry by flooded shoreline vegetation. This not only bodes well for the future, but directly affected our fishing with us (who were abreast of the situation) having to go to finesse rigs to bring our catch rates back up to tolerable in some waters. This was not the first time I'd seen, and had to adjust for, this scenario in my fishing. Watch for it.
Pantera61 reply :
MORE RELEVANT ON THIS THREAD
Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:16 PM
Bass Spawning Trigger
« on: March 01, 2010, 10:52:59 AM »
I posted this on another forum many years ago and it went over like a lead zeppelin. I don't know if this is the proper forum, if not, the mods can move it as requires.
Here goes:
LIGHT PENETRATION AND THE EFFECT ON LARGEMOUTH BASS SPAWNING
Experienced bass anglers accept the correlation between water temperature and the body processes and activity level of the largemouth bass. We know, for example as water temperatures increase, active feeding periods are extended. This continues until a balanced level is reached, somewhere in the 70°F - 75°F range. As the water temperatures climb above that point however, activity begins to decline until a near dormant state again occurs.
Spawning is another activity conventional wisdom has associated with warming water trends. It's believed bass begin their migration from wintering areas to shallow water to spawn as the result of the water temperature. It is ingrained into the mind of every angler I have met, read or heard. It is accepted as gospel to the exclusion of every other factor. Well, once in a while a nod is made to the effects of the wind but even that is considered to be negligible.
It’s important to remember bass are not slaves to their environment. Although conscious decisions aren’t made. Millions of years of response to specific stimuli cause the bass to react in a specific way. They don’t have the capacity to think but stupid as they are compared to humans, their species has been around a lot longer than ours.
Considering the amount of energy necessary to expend warm water at the depths the bass where believed to winter, it would take to raise the temperature. Upon further examination one would recognize that as a false premise. No single mechanism is so exclusive that others should be overlooked. There is one catalyst in particular, which I think is often disregarded too often for the anglers' good.
This dependence upon water temperature causes equally important factors to be disregarded.
I began to notice after a period of years, regardless of water temperature, bass seemed to be on the spawning beds about the same time every year. Then in the spring of 2000, it seemed the Northeastern U.S. had a remarkably cloudy winter, spring and summer
The mechanism is light penetration. Light penetration that causes the water to warm. Most anglers will agree that cold, muddy water is the most difficult to fish successfully. Unimpeded light penetration has two effects. The first is to stimulate the growth of subsurface vegetation by initiating the process of photosynthesis. The process releases oxygen into the water column and plants reduce turbidy by a filter effect. Light particles are diffused by suspended particles of sand, algae or other material, which gives/affects water clarity.
The second process is related to bass physiology. Bass, as most other vertebrates, possess a pineal gland. The pineal gland can be thought of as almost as vestigial eye. It is sensitive to the presence and concentration of light. As the pineal gland detects the additional and extended periods of light, stimulated the spawning cascade is initiated. Hormone production increases, longer feeding periods occur, eggs and milt begins to develop and start the spawning cycle.
I began researching spawning time, beginning with a review of my own fishing journals. I compared spawning times across the U.S. from south to north. It didn't surprise me to find that bass spawn in Florida than New Jersey or Wisconsin. That was simply reaffirmed. I began to notice something else, though. And to my mind, quite interesting: it appeared that bass begin spawning along latitudinal lines.
In other words, cities going east to west, Trenton, NJ, Columbus, OH and Topeka KS, are all aligned within one degree the 40th parallel. Bass in those areas would begin spawning at about the same time. There are climatic and other environmental differences between those cities, so what could be the common denominator between those locations to trigger spawning to occur at about the same time.
Why is that relevant?
I stopped thinking downward toward the water and started looking upward toward the Sun. After the winter solstice, December 22 two things occur. The amount of daylight increase and the position of the Sun begin getting higher on the horizon. That has the combined effect of light penetrating deeper into the water for a longer period of time.
This is significant for two reasons. The first is an increase in sub-surface vegetation growth, putting more oxygen into the water. The second is actually related to the Evidence linking the spawn to light rather that water temperature can be shown that even a minor drop in the water temperature for several days will extend the hatching period the bass eggs and the male will not abandon the spawning bed. But if there is a substantial decrease in water clarity as a result of rain, the male will abandon the nest. It appears to be the relation between egg maturation and water clarity could be consider almost photosynthetic. Linked.stimulats
There is a second effect that can be explained by the position of the sun and bass location. It's been a long held belief that bass are found more often on the north or northwestern shore of lakes early in the season because of protection from winds from that direction. If you take the time to observe areas of snowfall and how the snow melts, the first areas to melt are on the west, northwest, and north sides of a point. They are exposed for the longest periods of time and blowing winds have no effect on set snow.
Opinions, comments, questions?
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Paul Roberts reply :
The sun runs the big picture. But...there are a lot of confounding details.
Different animals react to light differently. I can get my chickens to lay eggs, or stop, with a light bulb. But the same is not true for all creatures. The variations there are quite wide. Most creatures carry an "endogenous rhythm" (internal clock) that goes off at the right times (say to breed), even under complete long term darkness in lab studies. Again, it's a cycle, a cascade of linked events. But some creatures are more "responsive" in the short term than others. If bass were like chickens, we'd already know that. Not that photoperiod is unimportant. There is a fair amount of research on photoperiod alterations on FW fish. You should delve in. But I warn you, the road is a tangled one.
There is great natural drive to simplify things -too far for our own good often. Good to home in where you think you see a pattern, but be open to confounding influences and “slop” in the system.
Pantera61 reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 5:03 AM, Paul Roberts said:The sun runs the big picture. But...there are a lot of confounding details.
Different animals react to light differently. I can get my chickens to lay eggs, or stop, with a light bulb. But the same is not true for all creatures. The variations there are quite wide. Most creatures carry an "endogenous rhythm" (internal clock) that goes off at the right times (say to breed), even under complete long term darkness in lab studies. Again, it's a cycle, a cascade of linked events. But some creatures are more "responsive" in the short term than others. If bass were like chickens, we'd already know that. Not that photoperiod is unimportant. There is a fair amount of research on photoperiod alterations on FW fish. You should delve in. But I warn you, the road is a tangled one.
There is great natural drive to simplify things -too far for our own good often. Good to home in where you think you see a pattern, but be open to confounding influences and “slop” in the system.
Did you ever wonder why old time anglers linked dogwood blossoms to bass spawns?
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 5:06 AM, Pantera61 said:Did you ever wonder why old time anglers linked dogwood blossoms to bass spawns?
I have, and tried that with plum blossoms that bloom roughly when the bass come onto beds. I had plums growing around my ponds and chose a few to watch while the bass did their thing. Individual plums initiated blooming over a month-long period (off the top of my head here). Some were in full bloom while others nearby hadn't even started. I can't speak for all plants, but at least with plums, it was a wash. Now, maybe if I had worked harder I could have identified specific plum plants that matched specific ponds. You get my drift there.
But, I was dubious from the start as the requirements of plants compared to...you name it, are different. I now enjoy those flowers but have all but dropped generalized phenology. Not closed, but -it's just not part of what I look at now.
And as an aside, why is it "old timers" (getting there myself), while potentially wise, and maybe had more time to observe nature --maybe-- are believed to have better memories, or better yet, kept better records than the rest of us? I think "old timers" are mythical beasts. Beware of confusing myth with evidence.
Paul Roberts reply :
Before you feel I'm dissing you, or maybe after... 
In a general sense, you are right on. But I still need my thermometer, the best way I know to measure "stored sunlight" so to speak. Even then, as others have mentioned above, it just doesn't pan out like clockwork. You really can't plan a day's or even weeks fishing by the Julian calendar.
Pantera61 reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 5:58 AM, Paul Roberts said:I have, and tried that with plum blossoms that bloom roughly when the bass come onto beds. I had plums growing around my ponds and chose a few to watch while the bass did their thing. Individual plums initiated blooming over a month-long period (off the top of my head here). Some were in full bloom while others nearby hadn't even started. I can't speak for all plants, but at least with plums, it was a wash. Now, maybe if I had worked harder I could have identified specific plum plants that matched specific ponds. You get my drift there.
But, I was dubious from the start as the requirements of plants compared to...you name it, are different. I now enjoy those flowers but have all but dropped generalized phenology. Not closed, but -it's just not part of what I look at now.
And as an aside, why is it "old timers" (getting there myself), while potentially wise, and maybe had more time to observe nature --maybe-- are believed to have better memories, or better yet, kept better records than the rest of us? I think "old timers" are mythical beasts. Beware of confusing myth with evidence.
That observation is what got me to thinking about this whole mess and how I came to my own conclusion about how the two coincide. The only common denominator is the Sun, more specifically the altitude of the Sun in the sky. After the Winter Solstice, the Sun climbs higher and higher on the horizon. It reaches that point sooner in the south than it does in the north and if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon. I can't find my exact info at my fingertips but it works.
Bassbutt reply :
Very interesting observations and interpretations, HOWEVER, I have it from a good source that the overriding factor in bass spawning is when the LILACS are blooming........
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 7:43 AM, Pantera61 said:...if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon.
I'm sorry. I'm not understanding. What is the significance of theses latitudes?
RoLo reply :
QuoteThat observation is what got me to thinking about this whole mess and how I came to my own conclusion about how the two coincide. The only common denominator is the Sun, more specifically the altitude of the Sun in the sky. After the Winter Solstice, the Sun climbs higher and higher on the horizon. It reaches that point sooner in the south than it does in the north and if you watch spawning dates on a U.S. map, again it coincides with between 22.5 degrees and 28 degrees on the horizon. I can't find my exact info at my fingertips but it works.
If you're referring to sun angle Pantera, I totally agree (otherwise I'm confused).
For the cannabis grower it’s all about “photoperiod” because the grow lights are always
perpendicular to the plant heads. With regard to our hydrosphere though,
solar gain is dependent on the combination of “photoperiod” and “sun angle”.
What better example is there than “winter”, the result of an oblique sun angle
coupled with shortened days. This dynamic duo (period and angle) easily offsets
the fact that the sun is closest to the earth during the winter.
Roger
RoLo reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 7:57 AM, Bassbutt said:Very interesting observations and interpretations, HOWEVER, I have it from a good source that the overriding factor in bass spawning is when the LILACS are blooming........
Another good biological marker is the first brood of the red winged blackbird.
Roger
.
Paul Roberts reply :
Ah, I see: 22 to 28 degrees angle to the horizon. I see your point. Bass like many other creatures are seasonal breeders. But I'm not sure how this is to be used at fishing resolution at any one location. The latitudinal distribution of bass spawning is well known. Neat to have the angle delineated. Thanks! 
But sun angle only works in a general geographic way. How might we apply that in a useful way at a given location? I have 30 ponds all at the same latitude, but begin and end spawning at different times. They appear to initiate spawning most notably in relation to solar gain, which is related to but not the same as sun angle.
So I have to reiterate:
In a general sense, you are right on. I can find super shallow ponds that heat extra early, with no sign of bass spawning yet, bc sun angle means winter still has teeth. But as things get close (22.5 to 28degrees as you suggest) I still need my thermometer, the best way I know to measure actual "stored sunlight" so to speak.
Even then, as others have mentioned above, it just doesn't always pan out like clockwork. There appear to be other things at work too.
RoLo reply :
By now Catt must be thinking, what the heck did I start
Paul said:
"But sun angle only works in a general geographic way".
The angle that sunlight enters the atmosphere is an annual cycle
and a major influence on our planet’s four seasons. It stands to reason
that sun angle also plays a part in many of earth's jigsaw puzzles.
In keeping with my above post, I believe that two anglers observing
completely different phenomena may arrive at the same time.
In Crystal River, Florida your water thermometer would not be a useful tool
because the water temperature remains 72 degrees Year-Round.
In waters such as this, it becomes clear that bass are receiving input
that goes beyond water temperature. To my mind, "sun angle" is an adjunct
to "photoperiod" and a worthy contribution. It's not inconceivable
that the six-month period of lengthening daylight is limited (fine-tuned) by sun angle.
Roger.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 1:44 PM, RoLo said:By now Catt must be thinking, what the heck did I start
Paul said:
"But sun angle only works in a general geographic way".
The angle that sunlight enters the atmosphere is an annual cycle
and a major influence on our planet’s four seasons. It stands to reason
that sun angle also plays a part in many of earth's jigsaw puzzles.
In keeping with my above post, I believe that two anglers observing
completely different phenomena may arrive at the same time.
In Crystal River, Florida your water thermometer would not be a useful tool
because the water temperature remains 72 degrees Year-Round.
In waters such as this, it becomes clear that bass are receiving input
that goes beyond water temperature. To my mind, "sun angle" is an adjunct
to "photoperiod" and a worthy contribution. It's not inconceivable
that the six-month period of lengthening daylight is limited (fine-tuned) by sun angle.
Roger.
Well..Catt should know better lol. I guess I'm just willing to hash this through. It's the terminal curiosity thing I've had since I was little. I dove in deep a while back and so the discussion is important to me. I just wanted to know once and for all, waded in and found it ... complicated. Not surprise there I guess. There are a lot of variables living things have to deal with.
Let me try to summarize:
Sun angle is critical and provides the general window bass spawn in. But "there is no one thing" that "controls" at a fine enough resolution to fish by on a day to day basis. In most places there appears to be an initiation temperature, as the biologists suggest -and that panned out in my efforts. Moon phase (and rapid temperature rise) appear to be able to synchronize/consolidate spawning events. In some instances water levels have been found to synchronize, or in Rainbow Springs ...photoperiod alone possibly (I'm going to have to look into that -gotta be stuff out there). And in any given water body, bass don't all get the call at the same time, as discussed before. Nature finds a way, adapts to what's dished out to a point. If it can't, that population goes extinct.
Make enough sense to quell at least some of that "terminal curiosity" for those afflicted?
Catt reply :
I have been busy for the last week since I started couching PE, we had a track & field even that lasted from Wednesday through Friday.
I agree with Roger, I see to many examples where water temperature is a byproduct not an actual cause. As mentioned largemouth bass can spawn successfully in water temperatures from 55 to 75 degrees.
I think egg maturity triggers pre-spawn and photoperiod triggers when the bass actually lay their eggs.
Like I’ve mentioned if one were to sit around watching a thermometer they could miss a major portion of both the pre-spawn & spawn.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 7:08 PM, Catt said:I have been busy for the last week since I started couching PE, we had a track & field even that lasted from Wednesday through Friday.
I agree with Roger, I see to many examples where water temperature is a byproduct not an actual cause. As mentioned largemouth bass can spawn successfully in water temperatures from 55 to 75 degrees.
I think egg maturity triggers pre-spawn and photoperiod triggers when the bass actually lay their eggs.
Like I’ve mentioned if one were to sit around watching a thermometer they could miss a major portion of both the pre-spawn & spawn.
To make use of it, one would have to take temperature profiles, not just a surface temp. Even then, I've only done this (adequately) for three spawning seasons. That's a drop in the bucket. Makes one's efforts feel...tiny. Big sandbox we play in.
Pantera61 reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Roberts said:Ah, I see: 22 to 28 degrees angle to the horizon. I see your point. Bass like many other creatures are seasonal breeders. But I'm not sure how this is to be used at fishing resolution at any one location. The latitudinal distribution of bass spawning is well known. Neat to have the angle delineated. Thanks!
But sun angle only works in a general geographic way. How might we apply that in a useful way at a given location? I have 30 ponds all at the same latitude, but begin and end spawning at different times. They appear to initiate spawning most notably in relation to solar gain, which is related to but not the same as sun angle.
So I have to reiterate:
In a general sense, you are right on. I can find super shallow ponds that heat extra early, with no sign of bass spawning yet, bc sun angle means winter still has teeth. But as things get close (22.5 to 28degrees as you suggest) I still need my thermometer, the best way I know to measure actual "stored sunlight" so to speak.
Even then, as others have mentioned above, it just doesn't always pan out like clockwork. There appear to be other things at work too.
Are all of your 30 ponds on the same north/south axis? Open vs wooded? Bottom composition? That's where the variables start fine-tuning a process initiated by Sun position. My original long post lays out the cascade of parallel events which trigger spawning: stimulation of pineal gland and increased vegetation growth ---> hormonal increase and increased oxygen levels ---> extended feeding periods and increased water clarity and so on.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 4/17/2011 at 7:36 PM, Pantera61 said:Are all of your 30 ponds on the same north/south axis? Open vs wooded? Bottom composition? That's where the variables start fine-tuning a process initiated by Sun position. My original long post lays out the cascade of parallel events which trigger spawning: stimulation of pineal gland and increased vegetation growth ---> hormonal increase and increased oxygen levels ---> extended feeding periods and increased water clarity and so on.
Gotcha.
Bassbutt reply :
It seems to me that a number of variables surely contribute to the spawn ,and, with that being an accepted premise, why pontificate beyond what has been said?.....How about proceed with launching your boat and fish accordingly!.....Not trying to mean mouth anyone,but, the why and wherefore looks like a moot point.
Catt reply :
Because some of us like to talk about things other than who has the “best” rod, reel, lure & so on!
And by the way the boat stays launched
RoLo reply :
On 4/18/2011 at 10:46 AM, Catt said:Because some of us like to talk about things other than who has the “best” rod, reel, lure & so on!
And by the way the boat stays launched
Thanx Tom
QuoteHow about proceeding with launching your boat and fish accordingly!.....
THIS is a forum, not a body of water.
We don't fish here on the forum,,and we don't hold forums on the waters we fish.
Roger
Dwight Hottle reply :
On 4/18/2011 at 11:12 AM, RoLo said:Thanx Tom
THIS is a forum, not a body of water.
We don't fish here on the forum,,and we don't hold forums on the waters we fish.
Roger
Touche
Bassbutt reply :
Sheeeeeez!........I bet you guys are still preaching while the spawn has come and gone......
Catt reply :
On 4/19/2011 at 10:14 AM, Bassbutt said:Sheeeeeez!........I bet you guys are still preaching while the spawn has come and gone......
Sheeeeeez!........I bet you can’t find the spawn with both hands
Bassbutt reply :
Sure can!...I just check the lilacs.
Sheeeeeez!........I bet you can’t find the spawn with both hands
scrutch reply :
Gentlemen, gentlemen. Before it gets too chippy here, I'd like to add ...
If the bass spawn and contributing factors were singular and simple, then discussions like this wouldn't be fun for some. Moreover, bass fishing would be boring. The fact that nature and specifically bass biology is a tangled web of contributing factors makes it fun. There's ALWAYS a new puzzle to be put together.
Thank you for your intuitive approach. Those who are frustrated by this thread can exercise their right to CLICK.
Fishing is like golf. An unconquerable sport in which the factors leading to success are always changing.
The journey is the reward.
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