Misconceptions About Catching Big Bass!! 2024
Mattlures reply :
First let me say that location, location, location, is so over used and over rated especially on this site. That's right I said it and I'll own it. I have seen many post where a guy asks for lure suggestions and at least one person chimes in with location. He didn't ask you about that did he? No and that simple answer does not help him in any way. Big bass do not live in some magical mysterious secret hole where all you have to do is find them and they will instantly turn stupid and eat what ever you throw at them. Anybody who has ever bass fished know this is absurd. Right place at the right time only gives you an opportunity. Its only a fraction of the varialbles. The entire process is extremely important. This includes, your approach, your presentation and hugely important, your lure or bait. You have to do a bunch of other things right weather you realize it or not. Catching big bass consistently is different then catching one ocasionaly. Targeting big bass is different then catching a bunch of small ones with a good one ever once in a while. Catching big bass consistently is about percentages and odds. You want to do everything you can to stack the odds. First, yes location. obviously and I emphasize OBVIOUSLY if your looking to catch the biggest bass you can, then your odds go up when you choose to fish lakes that hold more big bass. Learn the habits of big bass in your lakes and they will be easy to find. Does this mean they will also be easy to catch? Of course not!
I live in possibly the most pressured fishing area in the US. I have no problem finding big bass. That's easy. Now catching them is adifferent story.
Learn to stack the odds in your favor. Learn to recognize the percentages.
Example. Barney catches 100 bass on Senkos. 95 are under 2lbs. 4 are between 2 and 4 lbs and 1 is an 6lber his new personal best. Now somebody posts a question asking about big baits for big bass. Well guess what Barney says? "Big baits don't wprk any better because I caught my PB on a Senko so I recommend that for big bass" WHAT?????? did he somehow forget about the 99 other bass that were not big? That senko produced 1 out of a 100. 1 percent and now he thinks that's a great big bass bait. That is absurd!!!. When I am targeting big bass I would estimate that 40% of my bites are big. You know why? because I am throwing baits with high percentages of catching big bass. Do big baits catch bigger bass?..... YES! period! They up your odds. Anybody who tells you differently does not have enough experience or they are unable to process all the info they have taken in. In other words they are "Barney" who caught the one big fish and forgot about the 99 small ones. It means nothing that a tiny percentage of big bass are caught on small fish baits. There are allways exceptions especially when they are millions of guys fishing for small bass. If you catch enough small bass, chances are you will luck into a bigger one. This is not targeting big bass. This is not upping your odds. Most guys who have caught big bass have caught them just like Barney. They look back over decades of fishing and remember the handful of big bass they have caught and then they recycle the same old bad advise on how to catch them. If you catch a small percentage of big bass then you are not doing it right. You also should not be telling others how to catch them. Its the blind leading the blind.
Example. Think of the guys that consistently catch big bass. Butch Brown, Matt Allen, Oliver Ngy, Matt Peters. You can see these guys videos all over youtube. They aren't using small bass baits. They are using baits with a high percentage for catching big bass. Do you think they catch 1 big bass out of 100 dinks? You bet they don't!!! I am sure they catch a very high percentage of big bass. They do a whole lot more then just "location" and they use big baits. There small bass are Barneys good bass.
My whole point to this post is help guys sift through the bad info posted on forums about how to catch big bass. If the answer is coming from a Barney then pay no attention. If the answer is simply "location" then that is so obvious it isn't helpful either.
Now let me say of course location is important. There has to be big bass there to catch them ( thanks captain obvious) Figure out where they like to live in your bodies of water. You want to find them? Throw a big swimbait all day and they will reveal themselves to you. You might catch some or you just might get some followers. Pay attention to where they came from and what type of structure, cover, depth etc and find similar conditions and there is a high percentage that similar spots will also hold big bass. Trust me. it is a whole lot easier to find a big bass then it is to catch them. This is why I made this post when guys start posting the location response it takes away from all the other important factors. Don't believe me? again pay attention to what consistant big bass guys are using and how they approach a spot. Remember if a guy has caught thousands of small bass with a handful of big ones. He is not consistently catching big bass He might be a great bass fisherman but he is not a great big bass fisherman.
Mattlures reply :
I would also like to add that just because somebody only says location doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about. If they have a high percentage of big bass and they expand on how to locate big bass then there post can be gold.
WRB is a good example.
hatrix reply :
That will probably help a lot of people on here and I would imagine lots of the people who don't have crazy amounts of time spent on the water. I would just like to say though if your real goal is to target the biggest fish in the lake although BR is great there are other sites that are dedicated to only this. Big lures = Big fish. Period. It's is a different kind of mindset to throw the big stuff all day every day and anyone new should probably get ready for a lot of diss appointment and days of catching nothing. Your location will also have a huge impact upon your success but no matter where you live I guarantee there is bass somewhere that you fish big enough to eat that 10" lure you always said way to big where you live. You need to just grind it out like everyone else and put in the work and the rewards will eventually come.
hatrix reply :
I also kind of assume that maybe you wrote this because of the thread talking about someone trying to catch a "big fish" and how any people say location. I do agree with you Matt about that. It is a silly answer and really does nothing to help someone. That should kind of be assumed in my eyes and I would like to think the person asking should also know you can't catch a big fish if there are no big fish around.
Mattlures reply :
Big baits = big bass but a bait does not have to be big to be a consistant big bass producer. Small crayfish are a consistant big bass producer. They are one of the exceptons. I will also make a post later on about the misconseptins of throwing big baits. On of the biggest misconception is the "fishing for 1 bite a day" Or not catching anything for days. This is not the norm for guys who have some things figured out.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 9:15 AM, hatrix said:I also kind of assume that maybe you wrote this because of the thread talking about someone trying to catch a "big fish" and how any people say location. I do agree with you Matt about that. It is a silly answer and really does nothing to help someone. That should kind of be assumed in my eyes and I would like to think the person asking should also know you can't catch a big fish if there are no big fish around.
Yes. but its not just that post. It seems like its on every big bass topic on this site.
mnbassman23 reply :
Couldn't agree more Matt I'm glad you posted this. I have noticed the location location location answers on a lot of threads lately. I do agree it does play a huge factor but the baits your using are almost equally as important to be consistent in catching those big fish. You cannot catch what isn't there, but in most cases there are much bigger fish swimming around then most people think. 3 years ago when I converted from a spinnerbait, crankbait, senko guy to a jig fisherman it was night and day for size of fish caught. This year I'm about 50% jigs, 40% swimbaits and 10% punching/t-rigs. The average size of fish caught is better than ever.
I've fished with a lot of people this year who throw all conventional gear while I stick to swimbaits. The fish that show themselves or commit to a swimbait have made the other people in the boat about crap themselves. I've even experimented by throwing senkos and t-rigs in the front of my boat when the guy in the back is throwing jigs just to see. I probably will catch more, but 99times out of 100 the guy with the jig sticks the biggest fish. I've had more then enough eye opening experiences with swimbaits and even jigs to know that they make a difference when targeting big fish. Yes you can catch big fish on just about any lure but just because I accidently catch a 45" muskie on a 2" crappie jig doesn't mean I'm hitting up my prime locations targeting muskies with crappie jigs. Lure choice matters.
papajoe222 reply :
I think the location theme has really blossomed on this site because a lot of posts are aimed at finding a magic lure or presentation. eg."I'm heading out to my cousins 40 acre pond tomorrow. What should I throw?" In answering, somewhere in a reply it should be mentioned that it depends on a number of factors, prior to advising the OP that a Senko will always catch fish, or a crankbait is the ultimate pond bait right now. Many anglers don't approach lure selection with the idea that lures are tools and a hammer isn't a tool for stapling shingles any more than a Spook is a tool for winter time bassin.
Assuming the OP has enough experience to know how to find big fish or that many waters don't hold a large percentage of large fish is also a big injustice. I don't believe an angler that posses that experience would be offended by a response that states the obvious, provided the original question is addressed.
Mattlures reply :
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On 8/26/2014 at 10:39 AM, papajoe222 said:I think the location theme has really blossomed on this site because a lot of posts are aimed at finding a magic lure or presentation. eg."I'm heading out to my cousins 40 acre pond tomorrow. What should I throw?" In answering, somewhere in a reply it should be mentioned that it depends on a number of factors, prior to advising the OP that a Senko will always catch fish, or a crankbait is the ultimate pond bait right now. Many anglers don't approach lure selection with the idea that lures are tools and a hammer isn't a tool for stapling shingles any more than a Spook is a tool for winter time bassin.
I'll agree with that but sometimes its condescending and other times when somebody is specifically asking about baits, its insulting by insinuating that the op shouldn't waist his time with selecting lures or techniques because they certainly have not considered location 
Mattlures reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 10:39 AM, papajoe222 said:
Assuming the OP has enough experience to know how to find big fish or that many waters don't hold a large percentage of large fish is also a big injustice. I don't believe an angler that posses that experience would be offended by a response that states the obvious, provided the original question is addressed.
If the op does not change his location and only changes his bait selection to baits that are know to consistantly catch bigger bass then his odds still go up. If the Op is asking which baits produce bigger fish then answer that question with proven big fish baits. Its a huge part of the puzzle and it definitely can help him catch bigger bass.
Example: If I am fishing a 5 acre pond and I am throwing swimbaits, jigs, and cradads and 2 other guys with equal skills fish the same pond at the same time together with me but they are using small drop shots, jerk baits, and 5in senkos, who has the best chance of catching bigger fish? I would of course. That doesn't mean I would catch bigger fish every single time but I am positive that over time my average fish would be bigger.
Loop_Dad reply :
Thanks Matt for starting this thread.
I am kinda guy who likes go fishing but don't get to go out as often as I would like to. So while I now live close to one of the great big bass lake, I don't commit myself throwing swimbaits all day. (Well I only fish half day now, it just too hot in Texas!)
While local population here in Austin 'LOVE' senkos, I don't particularly throw them much. I like buzz, frogs, jigs, brush hog (not the baby one), big ribbon tail and soft swimbaits (puddle tails) I usually catch something with chance of big one. That's exactly what I want as a guy who only fish once a week.
On 8/26/2014 at 9:16 AM, Mattlures said:Big baits = big bass but a bait does not have to be big to be a consistant big bass producer. Small crayfish are a consistant big bass producer. They are one of the exceptons. I will also make a post later on about the misconseptins of throwing big baits. On of the biggest misconception is the "fishing for 1 bite a day" Or not catching anything for days. This is not the norm for guys who have some things figured out.
But now, you are telling this. Yes, please make a post about this. I would love to read it. Thanks!
WRB reply :
Very few bass anglers can make the claim they catch big bass consistently, those few who do understand the importance of location.
My other statement is "to catch big bass you most fish for them", that also ticks off folks and is even more true than the location statement. Any blind squirrel can find a acorn occasionally, especially if it's looking under an oak tree, ie; location.
On a few rare occasions I have caught 1 big bass, usually I catch several from the same area and that is the difference between a good big bass angler and a blind squirrel!
The giant bass are rare fish, however they tend to group up to feed effectively and that is the location every big bass anglers is looking for. Knowing where big bass feed and what they are feeding on is essential to catching these fish.
Tom
Mattlures reply :
Tom I completely agree with your post. It was informative. More importantly it did not minimize the importance of other factors such as bait choice and technique. They are all pieces of the puzzle and each time you figure something out it helps solve the big puzzle. It doesn't always matter which part you figure out first. Each time you figure something out the other parts get a little easier. My point is, if you find big fish, that's one part and a good start but its not the only part or the only start. You still have to figure out how to get them to bite which is way easier said the done.You can also start with lure choice. You still have to find them but if you make good lure choices you will increase your odds and any time you increase your odds your solving the puzzle which will lead to catching more bigger bass.
You can also try night fishing, again there is a good chance that will increase your odds. So will being stealthy, and so will using good gear. It all adds up, some more then others. There are so many things you can do to stack the odds in your favor. If you do enough of them you will catch bigger bass, its that simple.
Your statement of "to catch big bass you most fish for them", is very similar to what I say a lot. "if you want to catch big bass, stop fishing for the small ones" If guys would think of big bass as a separate species from small bass and learn their habits as a different animal which require different locations, baits, techniques, gear, and mind sets it would be a lot easier for them. Unfortunately for most guys (myself included) I had so much prior bass fishing experience it was difficult for me to relearn or commit to targeting big bass. I started by switching baits. I started throwing swimbaits. I also started fishing more at night. I also started to sight fish. Each time I did one of these things I started to catch more big bass and bigger bass. Then I started to fish the smaller lakes which were known to hold bigger bass and guess what happened? I caught even bigger bass. Location is very important but there are other factors that are also very important. The more you figure out, the easier it gets. The more you stack the odds the better chance you have at success.
Catch and Grease reply :
Thank you so much for posting this...
It's an incredible help, the whole time people kept saying lure doesn't matter in my thread I bit my tongue and picked my words carefully because I didn't want to start a debate.
Catt reply :
While I agree with what you wrote I feel you must add a few disclaimers!
Do big baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do big baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Y'all got that, let's move on!
Your thecniques of locating and catching big bass fits your region along with the bodies of water you fish. These techniques can apply in part but not in whole to the Mid-West, Great Plains, Great Lakes, Nrw England, Alantic Coast, South, and Deep South regions or Mexico.
While I can not speak for those other regions I can talk about mine. Here in the deep south more big bass are caught on Texas Rigged Plastics or a Jig-N-Craws, not exactly big baits.
With heavily structured reservoirs running 50,000-190,000 aces of water; location becomes extremely critical. Other key differences include high air/water temperatures, diverse types of cover and forage.
adam lancia reply :
I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread, there's lots of great pointers being made. Which leads me to several questions: I live in Nova Scotia and we only have SMB, no LMB. I would say the largest ones being caught regularly are in the 3-4 Lb range. I am only not starting to diversify and figure out what's working for me and what isn't. As much as the locals are helpful, most of it is the same as what you have said about the blind squirrel. Lots of senko's being thrown and the occasional big (for around here) bass being caught. Typically, I will use 4 spinning rods for various soft plastics: wacky and texas rigged senko's, texas rigged super flukes, and then either a tube jig or a shaky head. I also have smaller top water lures (poppers etc) but just recently picked up a Zara Spook. I also throw spinnerbaits. My questions is, where do I start with swimbaits? Should I try to match the kind of bait fish that are in the various lakes, or go with the coours and patterns of the senko's and flukes that usually catch fish? How big is too big a bait to throw when the bass aren't California/Texas huge? I want to maximize my time fishing these because I don't get out on a boat too often. I don't have my own boat, just a kayak. I usually tag along with a friend of mine when he goes out for a few hours after work. I realize that lure selection and tactics are going to be different based on my location, I'm really just looking for some general guidelines and principles to get started. If there are any good articles worth reading or videos worth watching, links would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for being so helpful guys!
WRB reply :
What got me into trophy size bass fishing was fishing gin clear rock quarry ponds near where I lived and the introduction of Florida strain LMB in San Diego city lakes. I lived 150 miles north of San Diego, so fishing those lakes required long round trip drives.
The rock quarry lakes had northern LMB up to about 12 lbs and as a young teen spent a lot of time watching and learning the habits of the larger adults, caught and released most of them, largest was 12 1/4 lbs. The primary prey fish source was suckers, chubs, bluegill, along with frogs, crawdads, small birds and mice or rats.
The first SD lake I fished was Lower Otay as a young adult. I had learned a lot about big bass habits and caught 3 DD NLMB by the time I started to target FLMB. Knowing how to nose hook crawdads and fly line bait fish, it didn't take long to start catching the big FLMB on live bait, lures was another story and that took a few years to develop lures these big FLMB would strike. The hard baits had to be hand painted to be more realistic, soft plastic worms also needed to have mote night crawlers realistic colors like cinnamon brown with black or purple/ blue blood line. This is when I started using custom hair jigs with custom pork trailers that have become my go to giant bass lure. Swimbaits came later in the late 70's, early 80's.
Knowing that live bait is very effective and could have a major impact on big bass populations in our small SoCal lakes, I became a advocate to stop the use of live bait the first 1/3rd of the year; Jan-Apl. Never got very far with my anti live bait proposals and watched our big bass population crash, some recover and others haven't, the pressure of live bait fishing doesn't help the giant bass populations, but I have learned to live with it.
Catching big bass consistently takes a lot of dedication to learning about these fish and their habits. For me it's been a life time of experience.
Tom
Edited by WRBCatt reply :
Who defines "Trophy or Big" bass?
I say where (region/body of water) defines "trophy or big" bass.
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 10:35 PM, Catt said:While I can not speak for those other regions I can talk about mine. Here in the deep south more big bass are caught on Texas Rigged Plastics or a Jig-N-Craws, not exactly big baits.
That again plays to the law of averages. If 99% of the guys are throwing jigs and worms, of course the majority of big bass are going to be caught on them. I really believe that as swimbaits continue to work their way into more guys' rotations, they will see exactly what Matt is talking about.
Are they perfect for every situation? Absolutely not. No bait is. Do they appeal to a larger class size of fish more times than not? You betcha....
roadwarrior reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 11:47 PM, adam lancia said:I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread, there's lots of great pointers being made. Which leads me to several questions: I live in Nova Scotia and we only have SMB, no LMB. I would say the largest ones being caught regularly are in the 3-4 Lb range. I am only not starting to diversify and figure out what's working for me and what isn't. As much as the locals are helpful, most of it is the same as what you have said about the blind squirrel. Lots of senko's being thrown and the occasional big (for around here) bass being caught. Typically, I will use 4 spinning rods for various soft plastics: wacky and texas rigged senko's, texas rigged super flukes, and then either a tube jig or a shaky head. I also have smaller top water lures (poppers etc) but just recently picked up a Zara Spook. I also throw spinnerbaits. My questions is, where do I start with swimbaits? Should I try to match the kind of bait fish that are in the various lakes, or go with the coours and patterns of the senko's and flukes that usually catch fish? How big is too big a bait to throw when the bass aren't California/Texas huge? I want to maximize my time fishing these because I don't get out on a boat too often. I don't have my own boat, just a kayak. I usually tag along with a friend of mine when he goes out for a few hours after work. I realize that lure selection and tactics are going to be different based on my location, I'm really just looking for some general guidelines and principles to get started. If there are any good articles worth reading or videos worth watching, links would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for being so helpful guys!
You will get better response in our "Smallmouth" section.
Choporoz reply :
Great reading. I didn't fullly understand until recently that fishing for big bass was different than bass fishing and sometimes catching big bass. Not sure what I'll do with the knowledge yet. Nothing, probably. I'm still happy with numbers and the occasional 5+.
Now, that I know about separating the big bass from the small bass......I'd like assistance in telling which BR advisers are blind. Through experience, I'm starting to learn, but it would have been helpful when I started here to have a big scarlet carp or something for people like me with little valuable knowledge, but no hesitation to pretend we do.
Catt reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 12:20 AM, SPEEDBEAD. said:That again plays to the law of averages. If 99% of the guys are throwing jigs and worms, of course the majority of big bass are going to be caught on them. I really believe that as swimbaits continue to work their way into more guys' rotations, they will see exactly what Matt is talking about.
Are they perfect for every situation? Absolutely not. No bait is. Do they appeal to a larger class size of fish more times than not? You betcha....
Or it means the anglers down here gave the swim baits an honest try and they still don't out perform the proven techniques. During pre-spawn/ spawn swim baits work quite well, after that not so much.
WRB reply :
Correct!On 8/27/2014 at 12:20 AM, Catt said:Who defines "Trophy or Big" bass?
I say where (region/body of water) defines "trophy or big" bass.
B.A.S.S. Lunker Club started with any LMB at 6 lbs in the 70's.
In-Fisherman master angler awards program was regional, divided the country into 5 regions and Canada the 6th region. California, Texas and Florida were in the same region, with LMB being 10 lbs to qualify, as I recall.
Tom
EmersonFish reply :
I think a lot of people use bigger baits than they even realize, at times. If you look at the profile of some of the "creature" baits out there, they are not exactly finesse baits. What keeps people from using the truly LARGE baits to target trophy fish is time on the water. Guys like me who don't get to fish as often as we'd like tend to focus on techniques that are likely to produce action, and possibly a big fish; rather than techniques where you might not get bit much but you are searching for the big one. I liken it a bit to catfishing, which is my background. I'm more likely to chase channel cat and maybe some decent blues on a Friday evening when I have a few hours, than rig up a 1 lb. carp and hope to catch a giant flathead.
MassBass reply :
timing, timing, timing.
senile1 reply :
Nice post, Matt. I like posts that make me think and this one does. I definitely have been slow in using bigger swimbaits, probably to my own detriment. I do use jigs with big trailers, large creature baits, big worms, and swimbaits less than 6 inches. Your post has me convinced I need to add bigger swimbaits to my repertoire.
I do think that most of the people posting about location mean well. There are a lot of bass anglers who still fish mostly shallow areas and visible cover. The location discussions are addressed to them, or at least they should be. Catt makes a good point that the importance of location does increase the larger the lake becomes.
This is a good thread and it has challenged me to increase my intensity for bigger fish.
Raul reply :
To dance with the fat lady you have to be there ( location ) at the right moment ( timing ) with the right invitation ( lure ) . You can´t expect to catch a bigun if you are never there, you can´t catch a bigun when she ain´t there and you can´t catch a bigun empty handed.
In my neck of the woods baits like swimbaits do not produce big fish for me and in my everyday lake it´s like knocking on an abandoned house, I´m positive that one deciding factor is the wáter clarity, the visibility for one reason or the other is always poor.
I catch bigger fish with T-tigged worms and jigs with big trailers, stickbaits can be another option but I can´t say it for sure because I seldomly fish with stickbaits ( even tough my second largest fish was caught with a 5" senko ), aside from the water clarity there´s also another deciding factor: speed, fast is too fast; slow and methodical is what works for me.
In this particular subject I feel Catt and I are closer in concepts than I am with Matt or Tom
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
Think about the water clarity comment in relation to the topic.
How do you think fish are finding that worm or jig? Water displacement and vibration, since the visibility factor is eliminated? To me, that would lend itself to the bigger bait being better in that situation due to a bigger presence in the water.
If you fish a swimbait in the same location as that worm or jig, you don't feel that the fish will seize the opportunity for a larger meal with the same amount of expended energy?
Just food for thought....
Raul reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 4:22 AM, SPEEDBEAD. said:Think about the water clarity comment in relation to the topic.
How do you think fish are finding that worm or jig? Water displacement and vibration, since the visibility factor is eliminated? To me, that would lend itself to the bigger bait being better in that situation due to a bigger presence in the water.
If you fish a swimbait in the same location as that worm or jig, you don't feel that the fish will seize the opportunity for a larger meal with the same amount of expended energy?
Just food for thought....
There´s no food for thought, I have fished methodically with swimbaits in the same locations and they just do not produce for me, excuse me if I sound like an ass but I´m not new to catching big fish.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 10:35 PM, Catt said:While I agree with what you wrote I feel you must add a few disclaimers!
Do big baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do big baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Y'all got that, let's move on!
Your thecniques of locating and catching big bass fits your region along with the bodies of water you fish. These techniques can apply in part but not in whole to the Mid-West, Great Plains, Great Lakes, Nrw England, Alantic Coast, South, and Deep South regions or Mexico.
While I can not speak for those other regions I can talk about mine. Here in the deep south more big bass are caught on Texas Rigged Plastics or a Jig-N-Craws, not exactly big baits.
With heavily structured reservoirs running 50,000-190,000 aces of water; location becomes extremely critical. Other key differences include high air/water temperatures, diverse types of cover and forage.
This is the type is misconception I am trying to clear up. Of course small baits catch big bass and of course big baits catch small bass. ONE OF THE BIGGEST PPOINTS OF THIS POST is, its about percentage. For every big bass caught on a small fish bait there are hundreds or thousands of small fish caught on that small fish bait. That's why its classified as a small fish bait. For every small bass caught on a big bass bait there is a MUCH HIGHER percentage of big bass caught that's why it would be classified as a big bass bait. Its about averges and percentages. Notice I am not saying trophy bass, I am saying big bass. Where I am from I still think a 6lber is a big bass. Not a trophy but still big.
Raul reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 4:34 AM, Raul said:There´s no food for thought, I have fished methodically with swimbaits in the same locations and they just do not produce for me, excuse me if I sound like an ass but I´m not new to catching big fish.
Another thing is now that I come and think about the swimbait TYPE is not the appropiate one, hard ( large crankbait type ) swimbaits do not catch me the kind of big fish I´m after ( to a lot of folks a 7 lber may be the fish of a lifetime but it´s not for me anymore ) and that´s the kind of fish I catch with them, there´s also the hairy subject of cover, my success is methodically and slowly working my way through cover on structure, the kind of cover that hangs up baits so I avoid for being downright stupid to fish with baits with non weedless hooks, also, it has to be compact, I don´t fish with 10-12 inch worms cuz they get bit by bluegills and cuz they hang up because they wrap around tree/brush limbs,I also avoid long and skinny swimbaits like the Mission Fish for that reason.
Anyway, all this mental excercises are futile, I catch quality fish with worms and jigs and if it ain´t broke don´t fix it.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 12:20 AM, SPEEDBEAD. said:That again plays to the law of averages. If 99% of the guys are throwing jigs and worms, of course the majority of big bass are going to be caught on them. I really believe that as swimbaits continue to work their way into more guys' rotations, they will see exactly what Matt is talking about.
Are they perfect for every situation? Absolutely not. No bait is. Do they appeal to a larger class size of fish more times than not? You betcha....
Speed nailed this one perfectly!!!!
Also consider how much feedback I hear from customers, not just about my baits but other swimbaits. Many times they tell me what they are catching but then say they don't tell anybody else and they are sorry but they wont send pictures or if they do its a close of a fish with out there face in it or no background. These guys are consistently catch big bass in places that other people think swimbaits don't work well. They are keeping quiet about it. Every time I hear somebody say they don't work well in my lake I just shake my head and think, if they only knew. Think about what a swimbait represents, what it mimicks. They mimick the primiary food source of big bass. Big bass primarily feed on small fish, not tiny minnows or little shad but small 4-8 in bait fish are a big bass's primary food sourse. If guys are not having success catching big bass (big being relative to their area) on their lakes then its the anglers inability not the class of baits. It could be they are not using them where, when, and how they should be or maybe they did not make a good choice in baits. With so many swimbaits on the market there is a good bait out there for just about every situation. Problem is there is also a ton of junk out there to. I will cover the topic of "I tried them but they don't work here" when I do my swimbait misconception post.
remember guys when somebody catches 1 big bass to every hundred or thousand small bass he is not a knowledgeable big bass angler. He may be a great bass fisherman but he is not a great big bass fisherman.
spoonybay reply :
WRB I moved from SD back to the Raleigh area and recently ran out of my Otay specials I was using back in SD. Had'em for years. I just got some robo worms to replace them that are pretty similar. Haven't been able to catch the trophy yet as I'm fishing local ponds. But the fish here like them as well as SD fish do.
Mattlures reply :
Guys this post isn't about swimbaits. Its about stacking the odds, percentages and averages. Its about how important bait choice is. Its about the when where and how but most of all its about Barney. The guy who catches one big bass out of a 100 all on senkos and now he comes to the conclusion that senkos(it could be any bait) are a great big bass bait. He only remembers the 1 big fish and totally excused the 99 small ones. Or how Barney has caught tens of thousands of small bass with a handful of big bass and he thinks he knows how to target big bass because of the handful he caught. Now he is giving advise (almost certainly bad advise) on how to target big bass. The blind leading the blind.
hatrix reply :
I have caught more big bass (relative) this year then any other year of fishing. I have also caught much less bass overall then any year also. I have also become very dedicated to throwing the big stuff almost 100% of the time I am fishing. Maybe some of you are right and big swimbaits just don't catch fish where you live. I personally doubt that though. I think a lot of it has to do with your selection of baits and most of all the quality of them. Originally I didn't catch as many as I do now but I also did not have the selection and range of big expensive baits when I first started that I do now. Having a decent selection of big baits to cover all situations you might come across has greatly increased my success. The issue I see people having with it all is that it can get expensive pretty quick. People are not so will to drop $60 on a lure let alone $100+ unless that is what you are into. Anymore I would rather buy let's say a HPH for $100 then a bunch of cranks and soft plastics and other misc stuff. In the end I probably wouldn't even use all those cranks of plastics and I know that is true because I have done it many times before and probably all of us have. Now that HPH I bought I will sure as hell fish the crap out of that and it is for sure going to stick some nice fish.
In a way you kind of either need to be all in or your not going to have the success you see others achieving.
WRB reply :
A few years back Don Iovino was guiding on lake El Salto, Mexico. Don isn't a big bait guy, he is known for his finesse bait and presentations. Don is an expert sonar angler and he located a lot of big bass on mid lake structure, humps or underwater island far off shore that the local guides hadn't discovered. Don didn't have any swimbaits with him, however a client from Texas had some all white 8" swimbaits. In a 2 week period Don put his clients on over 100 big bass using white swimbaits, that is what those El Salto bass wanted at that time on isolated humps. You learn to use what the bass want if you are targeting big bass.
Tom
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
Raul, if there's no food for thought then why participate in the thread?
Ever think it may 'click' with someone else?
Mattlures reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:00 AM, Raul said:Another thing is now that I come and think about the swimbait TYPE is not the appropiate one, hard ( large crankbait type ) swimbaits do not catch me the kind of big fish I´m after ( to a lot of folks a 7 lber may be the fish of a lifetime but it´s not for me anymore ) and that´s the kind of fish I catch with them, there´s also the hairy subject of cover, my success is methodically and slowly working my way through cover on structure, the kind of cover that hangs up baits so I avoid for being downright stupid to fish with baits with non weedless hooks, also, it has to be compact, I don´t fish with 10-12 inch worms cuz they get bit by bluegills and cuz they hang up because they wrap around tree/brush limbs,I also avoid long and skinny swimbaits like the Mission Fish for that reason.
Anyway, all this mental excercises are futile, I catch quality fish with worms and jigs and if it ain´t broke don´t fix it.
Raul I made this post for the blind that are listening to other blind guys for advise on how to catch bigger bass. If you have figured out how to catch the sized bass your after then you certainly are not blind. Its not all about 1 specific type of baits (swimbaits). If your catching the bass you want on worms and jigs then I agree with you. I wouldn't fix something that's not broke either. However if, that bite goes away you may need to change tactics. But I would keep throwing them as long as they produce the bass your after. I personaly will use any legal and or moral method that I think gives me the best chance at a big or trophy bass. I have no problem using live bait (except for the hassle and cost) or sight fishing or if I thought senkos gave me the best chance at the biggest bass you could bet that's what I would be using. For me I beleive swimbaits gives me the best chance at the biggest bass most of the time. I also will use jigs, crawfish, and a few others when I think they are the better choice for that specific situation. I also still believe swimbaits are the highest percentage big bass producing class of baits.
Josh Smith reply :
Hello,
As some of you know, I'm fishing an overfished lake this year, concentrating solely on it. I'm seeing most bass between half a pound and two pounds. There is a lot of cover and they are therefore ambush feeders. From what I've seen, they don't seem to school much.
I've caught pretty big (for Indiana) largemouth in the past. I don't recall the weight; I doubt I weighted them. It's not about that for me. It's about the size of the fight.
I have found that the larger bass rarely school around here. They seem to be solitary and protect their territory. If there's a shelf, they'll be a bit deeper (usually) than the smaller bass.
If there's one piece of structure, it will likely hold one large bass.
In the current lake, there are smaller (12" to 14" or so) holding and ambush hunting nearer to shore. Throwing large baits gets the baits attacked, but nothing hooks up.
My current theory is that once I get the boat back out on the water, the large ones will be in a couple coves inaccessible from shore, and also near structure on the bottom of the middle of the lake that I know is there but haven't been able to reach without a boat.
So for me at least, it's not about locating the bass. I know where the bass are and rarely go away without catching a couple 12"-14" bass, even in the worst fishing conditions.
What it is about, is finding the larger ones and giving them presentations that work.
For most of this fishing, I prefer lures in the 1/2oz to 1oz range, though some of the larger lures do weigh more and I tend to overload the rods. I'll be investing in a heavy rod or two if my experiments work.
Josh
Raul reply :
I´m thinking about this, if I hook big fish by slowly and methodically moving my bait through cover, and what I use for that are jigs and worms ---> it´s gotta be weedless, gotta give the good vibes ( the fish should be able to feel it ) ´cause the visibility is poor, probably the solution as I mentioned earlier is the type, I´m going to try with large hollow belly swimbaits ( the worst case scenario would be me not catching a thing and who´s in a rush ? ) something like the Black Dog Weed Slinger, it´s got the size, it´s weedless and the section between the body and the tail doesn´t look too skinny ( so it doesn´t wrap around tree/brush limbs ) and 10 bucks ain´t gonna leave me begging for money on the sidewalk.
Mattlures reply :
Raul the mission fish witch is very similar to the weed slinger was designed as a plastic worm/ swimbait. I think your idea is definitely worth trying. It sound like a very good fit for you. I would also consider the weed less Hudd 68.
WRB reply :
So many misconceptions about big bass, the 1 is population density, the bigger the bass get, the fewer there are in any body of water. Some lakes have a higher % of big bass than other lakes and those are the lakes your best chance is to catch a few. Big bass populations fluctuate depending on recruitment or year class survival rates. The health of the bass can be evaluated fairly easily, the girth should be at least 60% of the length, 75% is average. If the bass look like footballs with girths over 80%, the lake is in great condition to produce big bass. Bass with big heads and skinny bodies are in trouble, just surviving, not growing big.
Location is also fishing the right lake that has a good big bass population.
Another misconception is all bass can grow big, not true only the adult female bass grow to maximum size and weight in any lake. Big bass are female bass.
The length of bass is another misconception. The longest a LMB can attain is 30", very rare giant bass. The average adult female bass is 17", about 3 lbs, 18"-20" bass should be about 4 to 5 lbs., 21-23" are 6 to 7 lbs, Bass around 24" are around 8 to 9 lbs.
Tom
Mattlures reply :
Tom everything you just posted is absolutely correct. However big bass, not trophy bass, is relative to each body of water. If the biggest class bass in a pond is 4lbs then that is a big or at least a bigger bass. Catching big or bigger bass is not exactly the same thing as trophy hunting for the largest 1% of trophy sized bass. Most lakes do not produce huge bass. Most lakes don't have all the ingredients. But just about all lakes have different size classes of bass and most guys that are asking for advise on how to catch bigger bass are just wanting to catch bigger bass then they are currently catching. Catching big or bigger bass can be hard. Catching huge trophy sized bass is much harder and when you are specifically targeting a couple fish in a lake then location is by far the most important factor. However when your just trying to catch bigger bass then other factors can be equally or more important.
WRB reply :
Raul, the weedless HUD 68 needs a swimbait rod to fish through the brush etc effectively. The best hollow body is the first; Basstrix.
Tom
Catt reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 4:48 AM, Mattlures said:This is the type is misconception I am trying to clear up. Of course small baits catch big bass andof course big baits catch small bass. ONE OF THE BIGGEST PPOINTS OF THIS POST is, its about percentage. For every big bass caught on a small fish bait there are hundreds or thousands of small fish caught on that small fish bait. That's why its classified as a small fish bait. For every small bass caught on a big bass bait there is a MUCH pHIGHER percentage of big bass caught that's why it would be classified as a big bass bait. Its about averges and percentages. Notice I am not saying trophy bass, I am saying big bass. Where I am from I still think a 6lber is a big bass. Not a trophy but still big.
I have friends who throw big swim baits exclusively and their percentage of bass 6 lbs plus is considerable less than mine. I've followed them through an area where they didn't get a single bite while I boat bass in the 8-10# class.
In the canyon type reservoirs of west Texas swim baits produce better than in the hill country reservoirs of east Texas.
In the shallow water marshes of southwest Louisiana the swim bait is pretty much a waste of time.
So where is the misconception?
Might it be the misconception is in your head concerning what actually works in other regions?
Bass are opportunistic feeders and will eat what's in front of them regardless of size.
hatrix reply :
I agree with basstrix being the best hollowbody you can buy. The thing with throwing things like a 68 is not if your rod can handle it to throw it of there. The real issue is can your rod set the hook? They are a hard bait to move and when you set the hook there is no half ass hook set with those. You really need to crank down and let it rip with all you got to ensure penetration. It can be a great issue when making super long casts and that is why a line like CXX will really help stick those fish.
Cgrinder reply :
I have enjoyed reading this discussion and I hope it stays civil. There is a lot of good information in this thread.
Logan S reply :
I think the biggest misconception of all is believing that a person can be told how to be a successful bass fisherman. This is true whether talking about 'trophy hunting', tournaments, or even just consistent success.
More than baits, locations, timing, or any other variable you want to throw out there...The biggest factor in your success is going to be experience and time on the water. That's how the guys at the top put all those variables together into a winning pattern, or in this case consistently land giant bass.
More to the point of this topic and the topic that seems to have spawned it...Targeting a 'kicker' type fish (a 4 to 6 lber in most places) is very different from targeting a trophy or the 'one' fish of a lifetime. I'm not a trophy guy so I'm not going to add to that specifically as it's not my area of expertise.
The OP has probably put in the countless hours/days on the water needed to fine tune this technique for himself and the water he fishes...You can't expect to compress all that into an internet forum post, it's a stepping stone and you shouldn't treat it any other way.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 10:35 PM, Catt said:While I agree with what you wrote I feel you must add a few disclaimers!
Do big baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do big baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch big bass...absolutely!
Do small baits catch small bass...absolutely!
Y'all got that, let's move on!
Making this type of statement is a major misconception.It may be technicaly right but it implies that they are equal and that is VERY wrong.
This is a much more accurate way of presenting this info.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common
Do big baits catch small bass...sure sometimes but its not the norm
Do small baits catch big bass...sure sometimes but its not the norm
Do small baits catch small bass...Yes and its very common
Also just because you and your friends have not figured out a bite doesn't meant that bite does not exist or that somebody else hasn't figured it out.
WRB reply :
I wrote a article for In-Fisherman titled A Rare Chance for a World Record Bass book #64, Jan 1985.
The article was about lake Isabella in central CA. The reason I bring this up is the lures discussed; a hand painted 8" Bagley Bango lure in rainbow trout, there were few hard swimbaits back then. I had an original Huddleston wooden rainbow trout in 1988, before that all the swimmers were soft plastic like Worm Kings.
The swimbait is a relatively new lure.
My point is swimbaits have developed a lot in a short time, wonderful big bass lures that were not available a few decades ago.
My benchmark for a giant bass is 15 lbs, started out at 12 lbs where I live and fish. My goal is a 20 lb+ bass.
Having caught 5 bass between 17 to 19 lbs, all on jigs and none on swimbaits between Jan to Apl doesn't mean swimbaits don't work . I haven't caught a giant bass on anything after April, night or day and the last one was 15.3 lb giant 2006 on a jig. Best swimbait bass is 14.7, lots between 10 to 12 lbs. The reason is I spent more time fishing jigs than swimbaits. Maybe if I used swimmers more year around, instead of in the winter, that 20 lber could have been a reality. Today the giant bass population is down due in part to the drought, guagga mussel scare makes difficult to fish multiple lakes and no trout plants. I own and use a lot of swimbaits because they work!
Tom
NorcalBassin reply :
Lovin this thread... thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Slade House reply :
The last big bass caught at my lake was 12-7 caught on a white booyah single bladed buzz bait about a month ago.
tomustang reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 11:49 AM, Mattlures said:Making this type of statement is a major misconception.It may be technicaly right but it implies that they are equal and that is VERY wrong.
This is a much more accurate way of presenting this info.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common
Do big baits catch small bass...sure sometimes but its not the norm
Do small baits catch big bass...sure sometimes but its not the norm
Do small baits catch small bass...Yes and its very common
Also just because you and your friends have not figured out a bite doesn't meant that bite does not exist or that somebody else hasn't figured it out.
I know where your going with this but I see it a bit differently.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish? I've read a lot about swimbaiters putting in much time to get their bigger catches, what I don't know is does it take a similar amount of time as the guys who throw smaller baits and finally run into a bigger fish? Would it still be considered very common?
I know the points of using swimbaits, one is to help drop the rate of smaller fish and to focus on the bigger ones. But beyond that, is it really that effective? I mean the basics like a jig/craw or a worm are still very effective.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 3:03 PM, tomustang said:I know where your going with this but I see it a bit differently.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish? I've read a lot about swimbaiters putting in much time to get their bigger catches, what I don't know is does it take a similar amount of time as the guys who throw smaller baits and finally run into a bigger fish? Would it still be considered very common?
I know the points of using swimbaits, one is to help drop the rate of smaller fish and to focus on the bigger ones. But beyond that, is it really that effective? I mean the basics like a jig/craw or a worm are still very effective.
You have touched on one very common swimbait misconception. That it takes days to get a bite. Maybe for guys who haven't figured things out or are just beginning or guys who tried to save money and bought unproven cheap swimbaits. but the guys who are decent at it get lots of bites but again my main point has been missed. Its not only about swimbaits. its about baits that consistently catch bigger bass then other baits. While most big baits fall into the big bass catching category not all big fish catching baits are big. A small crawfish is one of the most proven big bass catchers ever. Jigs and top water frogs can be great choices for catching big bass.
One thing you said does baffle me. Do small baits catch as many big bass as big baits? NO plain and simple. Now again I am not classifying baits as big and small. I classify them as big bass catching baits and small bass catching baits. IMO jigs are a big bass catching bait and so are crawfish and so are frogs and so are buzzbaits at night but I think of them as small fish baits in the daytime. But to answer your question more specifically No. I will give you a reasonable scenario to illustrate my point. If Barney goes out with his senkos, crank baits, drop shots and spinnerbaits and he catches 20 fish in a day. he will most likely catch 10-15 dinks, probably 1-5 keepers and maybe 1 good fish over 4 or 5lbs. If I go out and fish all day targeting big bass I will probably only catch 3-5 with maybe 1 fish being a keeper and the rest being between 4-8lbs and possibly a 10+. Now if you kept count over a year and we each fished 25 days. Barney (your average fisherman) would probably have caught 2-10 fish over 5 and maybe an 8lber and it would be very rare if he caught a 10+lber. Now he probably would have caught a few hundred fish. If I went out for 25 days targeting big bass I would have probably caught 50 -100 fish. However I would have certainly caught at least a couple over 10lbs and probably 20 over 7lbs and most of my fish would be over 3.5 lbs. I would have a handful of dinks I would also have a couple bad days thrown in where I caught none or 1. Barney would most likely always catch at least a few small fish with no skunks. Of course this is hypothetical but I do believe its realistic based on what I catch and what I see the average guy catching fishing the same lakes as me.
Oh and if a really good trophy hunter went out for 25 days his numbers would be closer to Barneys but his fishes weights would be like mine or bigger.
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 3:03 PM, tomustang said:I know where your going with this but I see it a bit differently.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish? I've read a lot about swimbaiters putting in much time to get their bigger catches, what I don't know is does it take a similar amount of time as the guys who throw smaller baits and finally run into a bigger fish? Would it still be considered very common?
I know the points of using swimbaits, one is to help drop the rate of smaller fish and to focus on the bigger ones. But beyond that, is it really that effective? I mean the basics like a jig/craw or a worm are still very effective.
Send Butch Brown a message, I'm sure he will be glad to post a pic of some big bass with sticky notes containing your username and the date of either the same day or the next. Seen him do it many times.
tomustang reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 3:53 PM, Mattlures said:You have touched on one very common swimbait misconception. That it takes days to get a bite. Maybe for guys who haven't figured things out or are just beginning or guys who tried to save money and bought unproven cheap swimbaits. but the guys who are decent at it get lots of bites
I don't doubt swimbaits get bites, are they the bigger bites though and in good numbers, that's what I'm getting at. I already know they get bit from smaller fish, in fact I've thrown one of your ultimate gills for a very short time and got bit by a 4lber, so I know they get bit regardless. 
Quote
but again my main point has been missed. Its not only about swimbaits. its about baits that consistently catch bigger bass then other baits.
Now again I am not classifying baits as big and small. I classify them as big bass catching baits and small bass catching baits.
But you did say big baits=big fish, small baits=small fish. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying now.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:08 PM, tomustang said:I don't doubt swimbaits get bites, are they the bigger bites though and in good numbers, that's what I'm getting at. I already know they get bit from smaller fish, in fact I've thrown one of your ultimate gills for a very short time and got bit by a 4lber, so I know they get bit regardless.
But you did say big baits=big fish, small baits=small fish. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying now.
When I say big baits= big fish and small baits=small bass I am using a generic phrase. When I say big fish baits and small fish baits I am being more accurate. The reason being is there are a few smaller sized baits that are proven big bass producers. The small crayfish being the best example. One thing to think about though is the few small baits that are proven big bass producers tend to have 1 very important thing in common. They represent a slow very easy meal with very little effort to catch. Big bass don't like spending energy chasing small baits. Small bass do that. Big trophy bass have learned to get the most meal for their efforts.
tomustang reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:05 PM, Fish_Whisperer said:Send Butch Brown a message, I'm sure he will be glad to post a pic of some big bass with sticky notes containing your username and the date of either the same day or the next. Seen him do it many times.
The proverbial answer for all things swimbait...
tomustang reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:20 PM, Mattlures said:When I say big baits= big fish and small baits=small bass I am using a generic phrase. When I say big fish baits and small fish baits I am being more accurate. The reason being is there are a few smaller sized baits that are proven big bass producers. The small crayfish being the best example. One thing to think about though is the few small baits that are proven big bass producers tend to have 1 very important thing in common. They represent a slow very easy meal with very little effort to catch. Big bass don't like spending energy chasing small baits. Small bass do that. Big trophy bass have learned to get the most meal for their efforts.
The smaller ones are more aggressive, the bigger ones are more smarter for their food yes. I think the key is the easier meal, either being a small beaver worked slowly or a dead sticked trout as examples.
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:28 PM, tomustang said:The proverbial answer for all things swimbait...
Ok then...
Most of my big bass have been caught on spro bbz1 jr... It's not a deps 250 or a roman mother, but I get funny looks when I throw it; it's still a pretty big lure. I can say with confidence that I hold top 3 big bass this year in the particular body of water that I frequent. They were caught with the bbz1 jr.
EDIT: What were you getting at with your reply to my post? Yes, Butch Brown is synonymous with swimbait, but he can catch them on other lures, also. The point of my post was that you raised the question But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish?
He can catch multiple dd bass in a day's time. I myself have yet to catch a dd bass, but I do catch larger bass in an area where people catch hardly any fish at all.
Catch and Grease reply :
Hey matt, what time of year would you say you have the best chance at catching big bass, the Pre-spawn/Spawn maybe?
Mainebass1984 reply :
Great post topic. So many variables are involved when targeting big bass. I may fish in Maine and Vermont but I prefer to target big bass. Lots of great information on here. I would consider myself a big bass hunter. It is what I fish for, BIG bass. I think that along with all the afore mentioned information time of year and weather has a lot to do with catching big bass.
Lund Explorer reply :
I wonder if anyone of the big bad swimbait crowd can explain the results the Big-O gets from those "Barney Baits" he designs?
Raul reply :
Gee, I think I´m gonna kick meeself on the butt, never really looked deep into the Mission Fish until today just to find out that it has a weighted head that I can bottom drag n´ hop n´ work like a jig/worm
DUHHH, what an idiot I am
WRB reply :
Matt didn't say jigs and big worms are Barney baits, it's where and how you fish jigs and big worms that counts. Give Barney a big bad swimbait and he is not going to consistently catch big bass with it, nor will Barney catch big bass consistently on Big O's baits. Give Big O a big bas swimbait and he will learn and become successful at swimbait fishing, who knows maybe he is working on that design!On 8/28/2014 at 12:33 AM, Lund Explorer said:I wonder if anyone of the big bad swimbait crowd can explain the results the Big-O gets from those "Barney Baits" he designs?
I catch lots of big bass on jigs, worms and swimbaits, whatever works.
Tom
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 12:33 AM, Lund Explorer said:I wonder if anyone of the big bad swimbait crowd can explain the results the Big-O gets from those "Barney Baits" he designs?
Please re-read what has been written in the thread. Big bad swimbait crowd? You're a funny dude.
I am glad that you finally decided to have a picture under your screen name. Good job.
Catt reply :
Misconceptions About Catching Big Bass?
First let me say location, location, location, is so over used and over rated!
Wait, wait, wait, location is vitally important!
Do big baits catch big bass? YES!
Well not really big baits but BIG BASS BAITS which can be small baits!
Who defines what a big bass bait is? The Bass!
It comes down to the fisherman and the decisions he makes.
The fish and the decisions he makes...I mean she makes.
To consistantly catch bigger bass including trophy bass.
One must understand what structure is, how to interpret it, and the fish it effectively.
Understand what the predominate prey species in your lake is and how that species relates to structure morning, noon, and night...with each passing season.
Understand that next is timing; just cause you didn't get bit does not mean the bass are not there or you tied the wrong lure on.
einscodek reply :
can bigger fish be caught on small and average size lures.. absolutely
in my experience, I've noticed the size of fish caught on average improves as I upsize the lure and slow the presentation
are these the only factors involved.. no
Brian6428 reply :
This is a great thread! Hopefully it stays civil and the conversation continues. You guys seem to have talked a lot about lures, though. Not too much has been said about the "where."
Now, I know this thread was started as a rebuttal to the other "big fish" thread with the main piece of advice being "location, location, location", but surely you guys aren't just throwing these "big fish baits" up shallow near shore where everybody else is, right?
How do you approach a lake and start looking for those high percentage bit fish locations?
I am already familiar with Catt's views, but I always love to hear what he has to say. He has forgotten more about structure fishing than most people will ever know. What are the rest of you guy's thoughts, though?
Brian
Mattlures reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 6:30 PM, Catch and Grease said:Hey matt, what time of year would you say you have the best chance at catching big bass, the Pre-spawn/Spawn maybe?
This question depends a lot upon the angler and the area he fishes. The time leading just up to the spawn is when bass are at their heaviest. Not because of the eggs but because the fatten themselves up in preparation for the spawn. They feed a lot. This is the favorite time for most swimbait fisherman. The actual spawn is a great time to hunt a huge bass because you can pick with fish your going to attempt to catch. Summer time is one of my favorite times because I can catch a lot of big bass on my bluegill baits. Summer at night is probably the easiest for me. The big bass come in shallow at night to feed. They are easy to locate and you can just work down a shoreline on foot. Slow and steady top water baits like waking swimbaits both hard and soft and buzzbaits are my favorites.
Catch and Grease reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 6:16 AM, Mattlures said:This question depends a lot upon the angler and the area he fishes. The time leading just up to the spawn is when bass are at their heaviest. Not because of the eggs but because the fatten themselves up in preparation for the spawn. They feed a lot. This is the favorite time for most swimbait fisherman. The actual spawn is a great time to hunt a huge bass because you can pick with fish your going to attempt to catch. Summer time is one of my favorite times because I can catch a lot of big bass on my bluegill baits. Summer at night is probably the easiest for me. The big bass come in shallow at night to feed. They are easy to locate and you can just work down a shoreline on foot. Slow and steady top water baits like waking swimbaits both hard and soft and buzzbaits are my favorites.
Thanks for your input, sight fishing for spawning bass on the lake I fish called banks is difficult, the conditions have to be right, It can be done though.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 12:33 AM, Lund Explorer said:I wonder if anyone of the big bad swimbait crowd can explain the results the Big-O gets from those "Barney Baits" he designs?
I can explain it. A jig is a proven producer of big bass so his results are a good example of what a skilled fisherman can do with a big fish bait. Well done Big-O.
He is not a Barney.
Alonerankin2 reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 12:45 AM, Raul said:Gee, I think I´m gonna kick meeself on the butt, never really looked deep into the Mission Fish until today just to find out that it has a weighted head that I can bottom drag n´ hop n´ work like a jig/worm
DUHHH, what an idiot I am
It's a Good Bait, various sizes, and plays into my strength as a worm/ jig man.... Change the hooks to owner beast 6/0 to 8/0 and a big ole Neptune blue Gl2 rod ... I like the just over 2oz model...
( mission fish )
I need to try Matt's bluegill but I can never locate them when I am feeling frisky for swimbaiting.. And mostly Iam not....
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 5:57 AM, Brian6428 said:This is a great thread! Hopefully it stays civil and the conversation continues. You guys seem to have talked a lot about lures, though. Not too much has been said about the "where."
Now, I know this thread was started as a rebuttal to the other "big fish" thread with the main piece of advice being "location, location, location", but surely you guys aren't just throwing these "big fish baits" up shallow near shore where everybody else is, right?
How do you approach a lake and start looking for those high percentage bit fish locations?
I am already familiar with Catt's views, but I always love to hear what he has to say. He has forgotten more about structure fishing than most people will ever know. What are the rest of you guy's thoughts, though?
Brian
Brian one of the great things about swimbaits is you can cover a lot of water. Many times you dont have to hit the fish on the head to catch it. Most swimbaits are big and push a lot of water. Big bass can see, hear, and feel them from farther away then other baits. I look for structure or cover that has close deep water access. I especialy like points working them up hill and down hill at an angle across. One huge benefit of throwing swimbaits is the amount of big fish they draw out. Even if you throw one all day and don't get a bite your are likely to see more big bass then you would ever think. By doing this they reveal a lot about where they hang out on that particular body of water. You add that info to big fish that you have caught, structure that you have graphed and you can start piecing together your swimbait milk run. In general each spot has an optimal way to fish it. It has an optimal angle depending upon how the fish are sitting on that spot. When I fish a new lake I will start by throwing a swimbait and working along the shore. Usually outside of the normal shoreline boat path. I will take inventory by marking spots where I have seen big bass. Then I will comeback later and graph the area and try and figure out the best approach to the spot. Eventualy after several trips I will have located several big bass holding spots. I will try and learn the best way to hit those spots. After a while I can show up to that lake and go through my milk run. It can be very productive. Of course some of the spots only hold those fish at certain times of the year and other spots hold them year round so I adjust accordingly. I will also just cruise around looking at my side scan and mark spots sometimes without making a cast. After a while you can really get tuned into a specific lake. Oh I also turn off electronics and make long casts when I am approaching a known spot.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 12:45 AM, Raul said:Gee, I think I´m gonna kick meeself on the butt, never really looked deep into the Mission Fish until today just to find out that it has a weighted head that I can bottom drag n´ hop n´ work like a jig/worm
DUHHH, what an idiot I am
Raul, Mickey told me he designed the bait as a worm/swimbait because the plastic worm is one of the all time best baits. I have to hand it to him, the mission fish is a great idea. Many guys who have fished it have had hook up problems. The recommended fix is to bend the hook point off to the side a little. It also helps to set the hook HARD.
hoosierbass07 reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 8:30 AM, Mattlures said:First let me say that location, location, location, is so over used and over rated especially on this site. That's right I said it and I'll own it. I have seen many post where a guy asks for lure suggestions and at least one person chimes in with location.
I live in possibly the most pressured fishing area in the US. I have no problem finding big bass. That's easy. Now catching them is adifferent story.
Learn to stack the odds in your favor. Learn to recognize the percentages.
My whole point to this post is help guys sift through the bad info posted on forums about how to catch big bass. If the answer is coming from a Barney then pay no attention. If the answer is simply "location" then that is so obvious it isn't helpful either.
You are ranting against location and yet you are posting from southern California? Isn't California one of the best bass states in the U.S. along with Florida? That's like a beautiful wealthy person telling ugly poor that beauty and wealth is not everything in life. Yeah, sure. In my humble opinion - 90% of catching bass is location and time of year.
Catt reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 6:42 AM, Mattlures said:Brian one of the great things about swimbaits is you can cover a lot of water. Many times you dont have to hit the fish on the head to catch it. Most swimbaits are big and push a lot of water. Big bass can see, hear, and feel them from farther away then other baits. I look for structure or cover that has close deep water access. I especialy like points working them up hill and down hill at an angle across. One huge benefit of throwing swimbaits is the amount of big fish they draw out. Even if you throw one all day and don't get a bite your are likely to see more big bass then you would ever think. By doing this they reveal a lot about where they hang out on that particular body of water. You add that info to big fish that you have caught, structure that you have graphed and you can start piecing together your swimbait milk run. In general each spot has an optimal way to fish it. It has an optimal angle depending upon how the fish are sitting on that spot. When I fish a new lake I will start by throwing a swimbait and working along the shore. Usually outside of the normal shoreline boat path. I will take inventory by marking spots where I have seen big bass. Then I will comeback later and graph the area and try and figure out the best approach to the spot. Eventualy after several trips I will have located several big bass holding spots. I will try and learn the best way to hit those spots. After a while I can show up to that lake and go through my milk run. It can be very productive. Of course some of the spots only hold those fish at certain times of the year and other spots hold them year round so I adjust accordingly. I will also just cruise around looking at my side scan and mark spots sometimes without making a cast. After a while you can really get tuned into a specific lake. Oh I also turn off electronics and make long casts when I am approaching a known spot.
Structure fishing 101 regardless of lure choice!
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 8:52 AM, hoosierbass07 said:You are ranting against location and yet you are posting from southern California? Isn't California one of the best bass states in the U.S. along with Florida? That's like a beautiful wealthy person telling ugly poor that beauty and wealth is not everything in life. Yeah, sure. In my humble opinion - 90% of catching bass is location and time of year.
No I am ranting against people just saying location as their answer to everything. Somebody asks about baits and then somebody has to come in with the condescending answer of "location" as if the op wasn't smart enough to consider that. I am ranting that location is not the only important factor.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 8:55 AM, Catt said:Structure fishing 101 regardless of lure choice!
Wrong as usual Catt. 
my run and gun method is specific to my style of throwing swimbaits. The lure choice is extremely important. Once I have my milk run planned out I only make a couple casts and move on. Sometimes there is no structure. When I am "Structure fishing 101" I am dissecting a spot with multiple techniques. Sometimes I will even anchor.
Catch and Grease reply :
Do you guys think big bass can coexist with other top predetors?
Like areas on the lake that have a good population of pickerel or gar, could these areas still produce big bass or would you not waste your time and find an area where the bass are more dominate and fish it.
There are places on the lake I fish that seem perfect for big bass in my eyes but they have good populations of pickerel, small gar, and bowfin.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 3:03 PM, tomustang said:I know where your going with this but I see it a bit differently.
Do big baits catch big bass...Yes and its very common But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish? I've read a lot about swimbaiters putting in much time to get their bigger catches, what I don't know is does it take a similar amount of time as the guys who throw smaller baits and finally run into a bigger fish? Would it still be considered very common?
I know the points of using swimbaits, one is to help drop the rate of smaller fish and to focus on the bigger ones. But beyond that, is it really that effective? I mean the basics like a jig/craw or a worm are still very effective.
I'm not a big bass specialist, but think I can offer something relevant. I think Matt’s claim that big baits attract big bass at a higher rate than smaller baits is valid. Not that there aren’t other ways and places and times to catch big bass at satisfying rates, of course; largemouth are highly adaptable creatures and much of fishing is very local. But I think the big bass big bait concept is simply a part of the largemouth’s nature.
A while back now, I took a shot at the big bait game, dedicating part of a summer to throwing big baits in some of the small waters I frequented. This was in the early 80s and swimbaits were spanking new and essentially unavailable to me in NY. So I threw muskie plugs (Swim Whizz), muskie-sized spinnerbaits (One SB I had threw such a wake it caused wavelets to lap the shore of some of those ponds lol), and 13" worms. And I broke two pond records and my PB in the process.
I found that it decreased catches of smalls, but took fish of 3lbs up (18") just fine. A friend did the same thing and his overall catch rate dropped below what satisfied him, but he broke his PB twice doing it.
Interesting thing was, these were small waters –captive audiences more or less– meaning it wasn't primarily a location or timing deal; it was just up-sizing my lures.
I came to the conclusion that bigger baits attract and trigger larger bass at a higher rate than average sized baits did. And it supported my original suspicion –the reason I tried it in the first place– that many outsized largemouths are big, in large part, because they had simply broken into the next trophic level (a critter’s position in the food chain). In short, those fish target bigger prey.
A stop, or gap, in the chain is called a trophic barrier or trophic threshold and it’s the point where fish quit growing, having to spend too much energy to catch too little food. There may be bigger food around, but the bass aren’t big enough to swallow it. Food chains are rarely complete enough in most waters (unable to offer enough food of the right size or energy content per effort) for bass to grow big. This is even more likely to be so in the north, compared to the south where productivity is so much higher and where prey fishes may produce more than one brood per year.
I became hip to this from chasing big stream brown trout (and through my fisheries background) and finding that most streams, even small ones, have a few browns in them that dwarf the run-of-the-mill insect eaters. The dry-fly guys aren’t going to even know these fish exist. The nymph fishers will stumble on one every now and then. But the guys who fish hardware and certain big flies, in the right locations and times (water temperature and food availability are key), find them. Some target them, but very few do for the same reasons most bass fisherman don’t target out-sized bass.
How does an individual brown, or largemouth, grow beyond its brethren? It jumps the gaps in the food chain by obtaining more food than the others, growing larger and thereby allowing them to capture and swallow still larger prey that are normally safe from the hordes of smaller bass. Doug Hannon has stated that bass get big by being extra aggressive individuals. (I suspect this is at work in brown trout too.) Those largemouths you occasionally find choking to death on prey that was a bit too big? They may just bear witness to the on-going selection battle between largemouth and their prey.
Here are a few examples of largemouths (and one spot) that tried to break the bank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmnAIx7FueQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPmq4oulSiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXVOGtZqGh4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtgNprDqijs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EehujHwR70w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKBmONt_dds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8lvtRM8SgQ
RoLo reply :
I don't believe Matt is degrading the importance of location, he's saying that fishing is a 'percentage game'
with several elements. In order to boat trophy fish, you need the right lure, in the right place, at the right time.
That's a mighty tall order, but when we come up short on any one element, our odds fall off dramatically.
For many years I've refrained from stating flatly that Big lures catch Big bass. However, one has only to look
in my tackle box to see that big lures is basically all I throw. Fishing with large lures doesn't promise anything,
but a large lure is going to boost your trophy potential more than a small lure can. On the contrary, many anglers
who parrot the phrase: "Big lures, Big bass" are apparently not targeting big bass. When you look inside their
tackle box you will often see single-tail grubs instead of double-tail grubs, Rage Craws instead of Rage Lobsters,
Skinny Dippers instead of Big EZs and so on. In central Florida at least, the majority of my heaviest bass
during the past 5 years have been taken on soft swimbaits. On the other hand, most of my wife's largest bass
have been taken with a Deps Twin-Tail Grub on a homemade skirted jig. In both cases, a hefty lure with good bulk.
I like pitching hard swimbaits but exposed hooks don't go very far in our shallow, weedy lakes.
I've tried the weedless Hudd with good results, but the weedless feature doesn't hold up well under my cruel abuse.
Roger
SirSnookalot reply :
I'm in agreement with Catt and Raul.
It is location, not only the existing structure of one's local area but location of the country (Mexico too), I never caught bass close to what I catch in Florida when I lived in Michigan, it's a whole lot easier here too. My biggest bass come from canals, usually there is too much vegetation or floating grass and sea lettuce and shallow water nothing seems to work better for me than a weedless fluke. I fish ponds too and some of these ponds hold some really nice sized fish, I can't justify using a rod heavy enough to handle a swimbait for maybe a 24" fish. 90% of the time it's a ml spinning rod and a good portion of my fish over 20" come from a top water lure.
No knock on big baits, but it isn't for me.
Catt reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 9:24 AM, Mattlures said:Wrong as usual Catt.
my run and gun method is specific to my style of throwing swimbaits. The lure choice is extremely important. Once I have my milk run planned out I only make a couple casts and move on. Sometimes there is no structure. When I am "Structure fishing 101" I am dissecting a spot with multiple techniques. Sometimes I will even anchor.
Wrong again!
That's exactly what I do execpt I do it with Texes Rigs & Jig-N-Craws.
If y'all can get Steve "Big- O" Parks on here he does the same thing with the same techniques I do.
I've friends who do it with cranks!
Your job is to sell Swim Baits so you have to convince every one they are #1!
Mainebass1984 reply :
Right location. Right lure. At the right time.
mod479 reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 11:09 AM, Catch and Grease said:Do you guys think big bass can coexist with other top predetors?
Like areas on the lake that have a good population of pickerel or gar, could these areas still produce big bass or would you not waste your time and find an area where the bass are more dominate and fish it.
There are places on the lake I fish that seem perfect for big bass in my eyes but they have good populations of pickerel, small gar, and bowfin.
The bass in my lake compete with big pike and brown / rainbow / lake trout. Both LMB and SMB in here...they are healthy fish for a lake less than 300 acres. Stocked annually with small rainbow trout. No follows on my hudd 68 yet, but have got bit on trout pattern jerkbaits. Likely operator error, not the hudds fault. In my opinion its a 2 tier fishery, the lake trout usually take the deep water, rainbows and browns all over the place surface to the bottom and anywhere in between, and most of the SMB can be found near the mouths of bays and off rocky points / rock piles, not all that deep. The largemouth seem to be around the limited laydowns in summer time. The pike are elusive, have seen some in the weeds/ posted up next to docks/ generally shallow. This is not absolute, just my own observations. Occasionally these fish seem to work together, herding large schools of suspended bait over 50+ feet of water. Bass on one cast, trout on the next. They're doin alright for getting dumped in the lake outta milk cans in the 1800s.
Lund Explorer reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 7:05 PM, Catt said:Wrong again!
That's exactly what I do execpt I do it with Texes Rigs & Jig-N-Craws.
If y'all can get Steve "Big- O" Parks on here he does the same thing with the same techniques I do.
I've friends who do it with cranks!
Your job is to sell Swim Baits so you have to convince every one they are #1!
To paraphrase a sage:
"Yelp!"
K_Mac reply :
Catt I don't think that selling swimbaits is Matt's primary concern in this thread. He has dedicated himself to catching big bass and has come to the conclusion that swimbaits increase the odds. Sure he is going to advocate for their use. Big O has come to believe, as you do, that the right plastic in the right presentation can be just as effective. Is selling Rage products his primary motivation? I don't think so, but one could cynically draw that conclusion.
I have said for a while now that I target bigger fish. My average size caught supports this claim. Could I improve my percentages by throwing quality swimbaits? I don't know because I haven't made the commitment to do so. I think Matt and others make a compelling case that I could. Catt could I improve my percentages by spending more time with a jig learning to better understand structure? Based on my history I know the answer to that is yes.
I think this is a fascinating and informative discussion with some really good big bass guys offering their honest views. Success, confidence and ego are all part of the ingredients here. Good job guys!
Thanks for the thread Matt.
Alonerankin2 reply :
I don't even, not even, slightly, believe Catt or Raul or myself or hundreds of fisherman are Wrong... These Basic fundamentals are well know and have been proven over decades...
California's force feeding of Rainbow trout to the non- native FLMB... I dare say, Mr. Doug Hannon has caught more Giant FLMB than most anyone and did so in a natural environment, not in a state sponsored soup kitchen. And primarily, on a 7" strait- tail soft plastic worm... In his early days Native Golden Shiners. So I know the whole argument that small baits are only occasional Big or Giant Fish catchers is bogus....
einscodek reply :
theres many factors involved here and a few have been mentioned
clearly big fish have been caught on ordinary worms and jigs
the majority of texas sharelunkers if I recall were caught on senkos or senko size worms
I think yall should forget the "other guys is right or wrong" bs and just fish
its not rocket science going after big fish.. know yer prey, its behavior, and its habitat and tendencies
there are times mr big will eat BIG and times it will eat SMALL .. and some mr bigs eat more BIG and some mr big eat more small
and there are some variations on that across the country and it varied bodies of water..
yer going after the apex of the apex predator in most lakes.. numbers wise you;d be targeting the select fish and its fewer bites on an outing going after mr big .. i'd prefer larger lures to go after mr big (this my preference & experience)
alot of the negative things said on this thread on the back of right or wrong are personal experiences yea if it works for ya fine but dont push it onto someone else and degrade them
none of the things said here are backed by real solid data or studies and wouldnt make it into a scientific journal
as with all things in life with advice and fishing for mr big included.. caveat emptor
WRB reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 11:09 AM, Catch and Grease said:Do you guys think big bass can coexist with other top predetors?
Like areas on the lake that have a good population of pickerel or gar, could these areas still produce big bass or would you not waste your time and find an area where the bass are more dominate and fish it.
There are places on the lake I fish that seem perfect for big bass in my eyes but they have good populations of pickerel, small gar, and bowfin.
I took a look at Banks lake, GA where you fish, great looking bass lake with cypress trees, weed beds etc, typical southern natural lake. My problem helping you locate bass in this type of water is I don't have much experience fishing natural southern lakes. There is a wildlife refuge at one end, a road running along one bank area, some docks and lots of trees. I couldn't find a topo map showing bottom depth contours, so my observation is visual surface areas, not much help.
the predator fish are located where prey is available, pickerel and gar are fish eaters and have teeth to grab prey fish. Bowfin are opportunity eaters like bass, more bottom oriented with a turned down mouth.
Largemouth bass may be located in the same areas, usually feeding first as they are a higher order predator. I would fish the areas you see feeding activity before the feeding gets started by the pickerel. Looking at cypress trees, try the trees located further out on the water, that should be where a big bass would locate. There is a reason the trees stopped growing, the water should be deeper. Depth changes in a shallow natural lake of only a foot or two is a big percentage change compared to the surrounding water. Example the average water is 2 feet deep and you find a break where the depth changes to 4 feet, big change and that is what you should be looking for. Any isolated structure or stump near or on a break is a good bass location.
I said before that Matts hard Gill, jigs, spinner or buzz baits and big worms would be an excellent choices for this lake and nothing has change that.
Tom
Catch and Grease reply :
Thanks that's really helpful info WRB!
I've also tried finding a topo map with no success, anytime I try to contact someone that maintains the lake about something they give me the run around....
I'm sure those hard gills work great but there are a lot more things I'd rather spend 70$ on right now, like a heavy rod....
buzzed bait reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 6:16 AM, Mattlures said:This question depends a lot upon the angler and the area he fishes. The time leading just up to the spawn is when bass are at their heaviest. Not because of the eggs but because the fatten themselves up in preparation for the spawn. They feed a lot. This is the favorite time for most swimbait fisherman. The actual spawn is a great time to hunt a huge bass because you can pick with fish your going to attempt to catch. Summer time is one of my favorite times because I can catch a lot of big bass on my bluegill baits. Summer at night is probably the easiest for me. The big bass come in shallow at night to feed. They are easy to locate and you can just work down a shoreline on foot. Slow and steady top water baits like waking swimbaits both hard and soft and buzzbaits are my favorites.
hang on, so is location important or isn't it?
matt, agree with most of what you're saying but i think the main takeaway from this thread are that there are a number of variables that play into catching big fish (be it consistently or not). Now why you decided to isolate location as one of those variable and then essentially downplay its importance i do not fully follow.
your hardgill bait for example (which i would still like to get my hands on) will be far more effective near the bluegill beds during the spawn (location/timing) than say in 50 feet of water far from said beds.
Not to be in one camp or the other, because my point is that there are many camps and they are all right, all the time.....
Catch and Grease reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 2:06 AM, buzzed bait said:hang on, so is location important or isn't it?
matt, agree with most of what you're saying but i think the main takeaway from this thread are that there are a number of variables that play into catching big fish (be it consistently or not). Now why you decided to isolate location as one of those variable and then essentially downplay its importance i do not fully follow.
your hardgill bait for example (which i would still like to get my hands on) will be far more effective near the bluegill beds during the spawn (location/timing) than say in 50 feet of water far from said beds.
Not to be in one camp or the other, because my point is that there are many camps and they are all right, all the time.....
You obviously haven't read this thread well.
He has already stated multiple times that he is not trying to say location isn't important, he is trying to say that location isn't the ONLY important thing and that many other key factors like lure selection and time of day can play a huge part in catching big bass.
Alonerankin2 reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 1:26 AM, Catch and Grease said:Thanks that's really helpful info WRB!
I've also tried finding a topo map with no success, anytime I try to contact someone that maintains the lake about something they give me the run around....
I'm sure those hard gills work great but there are a lot more things I'd rather spend 70$ on right now, like a heavy rod....
Check with you're county land surveyor, if they are worth a grain of salt they should have a usgs topo. On the lake and surrounding area, then again, maybe not.
buzzed bait reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 2:17 AM, Catch and Grease said:You obviously haven't read this thread well.
He has already stated multiple times that he is not trying to say location isn't important, he is trying to say that location isn't the ONLY important thing and that many other key factors like lure selection and time of day can play a huge part in catching big bass.
ok. sentence #1 of OP, "location is over rated". i'm saying that all variables mentioned play an equal importance in consistently catching big bass. to say that any one is more important than the other for catching them consistently is really just false. now to matt's point, one could argue that a particular one of those variables was more important in catching that "one" big one in 100. But again to his point, consistently catching the big ones requires fishing with the right lure, right place, blah blah blah.
So all I was saying is that downplaying one of those essential ingredients in the consistency formula or saying one is more important than the other, is really just contradicting his otherwise very valid points.
side note, another word that is over used here and every where else in the world: OBVIOUSLY
Mattlures reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 3:42 AM, buzzed bait said:ok. sentence #1 of OP, "location is over rated". i'm saying that all variables mentioned play an equal importance in consistently catching big bass. to say that any one is more important than the other for catching them consistently is really just false. now to matt's point, one could argue that a particular one of those variables was more important in catching that "one" big one in 100. But again to his point, consistently catching the big ones requires fishing with the right lure, right place, blah blah blah.
So all I was saying is that downplaying one of those essential ingredients in the consistency formula or saying one is more important than the other, is really just contradicting his otherwise very valid points.
side note, another word that is over used here and every where else in the world: OBVIOUSLY
My opening sentence was to bring attention to the other variables. In a bunch of other threads guys would ask questions about which baits to use and a couple guys would simply post "location" as their answer. Many times their post was condescending with no explaination. Just "location". Basicaly telling the OP that their question was irrelevant and they shouldnt even ask about baits because location is all that matters. But if you read my whole post you would see that I say location is obviously important. It is only over rated when guys use it as the only important variable.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 11:09 AM, Paul Roberts said:I'm not a big bass specialist, but think I can offer something relevant. I think Matt’s claim that big baits attract big bass at a higher rate than smaller baits is valid. Not that there aren’t other ways and places and times to catch big bass at satisfying rates, of course; largemouth are highly adaptable creatures and well much of fishing is very local. But I think the big bass big bait concept is simply a part of the largemouth’s nature.
A while back now, I took a shot at the big bait game, dedicating part of a summer to throwing big baits in some of the small waters I frequented. This was in the early 80s and swimbaits were spanking new and essentially unavailable to me in NY. So I threw muskie plugs (Swim Whizz), muskie-sized spinnerbaits (One SB I had threw such a wake it caused wavelets to lap the shore of some of those ponds lol), and 13" worms. And I broke two pond records and my PB in the process.
I found that it decreased catches of smalls, but took fish of 3lbs up (18") just fine. A friend did the same thing and his overall catch rate dropped below what satisfied him, but he broke his PB twice doing it.
Interesting thing was, these were small waters –captive audiences more or less– meaning it wasn't primarily a location or timing deal; it was just up-sizing my lures.
I came to the conclusion that bigger baits attract and trigger larger bass at a higher rate than average sized baits did. And it supported my original suspicion –the reason I tried it in the first place– that many outsized largemouths are big, in large part, because they had simply broken into the next trophic level (a critter’s position in the food chain). In short, those fish target bigger prey.
A stop, or gap, in the chain is called a trophic barrier or trophic threshold and it’s the point where fish quit growing, having to spend too much energy to catch too little food. There may be bigger food around, but the bass aren’t big enough to swallow it. Food chains are rarely complete enough in most waters (unable to offer enough food of the right size or energy content per effort) for bass to grow big. This is even more likely to be so in the north, compared to the south where productivity is so much higher and where prey fishes may produce more than one brood per year.
I became hip to this from chasing big stream brown trout (and through my fisheries background) and finding that most streams, even small ones, have a few browns in them that dwarf the run-of-the-mill insect eaters. The dry-fly guys aren’t going to even know these fish exist. The nymph fishers will stumble on one every now and then. But the guys who fish hardware and certain big flies, in the right locations and times (water temperature and food availability are key), find them. Some target them, but very few do for the same reasons most bass fisherman don’t target out-sized bass.
How does an individual brown, or largemouth, grow beyond its brethren? It jumps the gaps in the food chain by obtaining more food than the others, growing larger and thereby allowing them to capture and swallow still larger prey that are normally safe from the hordes of smaller bass. Doug Hannon has stated that bass get big by being extra aggressive individuals. (I suspect this is at work in brown trout too.) Those largemouths you occasionally find choking to death on prey that was a bit too big? They may just bear witness to the on-going selection battle between largemouth and their prey.
Here are a few examples of largemouths (and one spot) that tried to break the bank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmnAIx7FueQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPmq4oulSiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXVOGtZqGh4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtgNprDqijs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EehujHwR70w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKBmONt_dds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8lvtRM8SgQ
Thank you Paul, that was an excellent post!
Mattlures reply :
On 8/28/2014 at 7:05 PM, Catt said:Wrong again!
That's exactly what I do execpt I do it with Texes Rigs & Jig-N-Craws.
If y'all can get Steve "Big- O" Parks on here he does the same thing with the same techniques I do.
I've friends who do it with cranks!
Your job is to sell Swim Baits so you have to convince every one they are #1!
My job is to design and make swimbaits. My job is to help people catch big bass. I do that wether they are using swimbaits or not. My job may also be to sell swimbaits but I am not a salesman. I do not go to any trade shows,.I have no decals on my boat or truck. I do not call or visit stores for orders. They call me and I fill orders. I am almost never able to accumulate stock as I sell what I make as its made.
I also do not need to convince anybody that swimbaits are #1. the results speak for them selves. All you have to do is look at all the pictures and videos from the last 8 years and you will see that swimbaits have produced more huge bass then any other bait. And consider that only a small percentage of guys are using them. I am on these boards because I like contributing and helping guys catch big bass. I rarely if ever even mention my baits on here and I often recommend other brands and other baits.
gulfcaptain reply :
Matt, Tom, and Raul as well as CATT all catch big fish.....mind it in different ways. But Matt's point, " bigger baits" catch bigger fish regularly. Having only gotten back into bass fishing in the last 3 years, I can say, bigger baits catch bigger fish. But not all are on big swimbaits...yes some of them were caught on those, others on jigs. Main point, bigger fish eat bigger baits, and as stated, you want to know the size of some of the bigger fish where you fish. Throw a swimbait and see what shows up behind it. Will they always bite...no. But it is fun to see them. All four have one major thing in common with one another though, each are extremly confident in their presentations and bait selections that catch them bigger avg fish then the weekend or everyday "Barney". I would rather catch fewer fish of greater size then have a bunch of small fish. Am I trophy hunting, no, but I will up my odds using larger profile baits to target the larger fish in the populations I fish weather it be a jig or a swimbait. Both are tools and each have their places and times.
missouribigbass reply :
I've been fishing hard for 20 years. In my area a 7-9lb bass is a trophy. I'm in north Missouri 20 miles from the Iowa line. I've never seen or heard of a double digit bass here which is my goal.
Having fished hard for 20 years I've learned a little along the way. A few years back I decided to do nothing but target trophy fish those 7-9lbers around here with the ultimate goal to land a dd bass. Prior to my change in approach my personal best was 8lb 6oz. Since that time I've caught a lot of bass that size and a up to 9lb 2oz. What changed? Bait and retrieve. Instead of 7 inch worms I use 10s and 12s. I've gotten bigger in every area of my tackle. This year I've gotten in to the swimbait craze and its absolutely legit. Do you have to use swimbait to trophy fish? No big plastics, jigs, topwaters are also great lures for catching trophy bass consistently but swimbait will produce almost every time out. I agree with the op that it's all technique. I've gotten a lot better the more I've used it. The more I throw it the more confidence I have in it as well.
I can say from experience that you absolutely positively increase your chances of catching big fish by throwing big baits. If your not having success you need to change your presentation. I caught some big fish here and there before I started throwing just big baits but it was sporadic. Now I'm disappointed if I don't put s big bad in the boat every time out.
Logan S reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 8:30 AM, Mattlures said:
My whole point to this post is help guys sift through the bad info posted on forums about how to catch big bass. If the answer is coming from a Barney then pay no attention.
From the OP. How many of you realize that 'Barney' (according to the OP) is everywhere in this thread? Or that you might be the 'Barney' he's talking about.
His entire point is that on a public, online forum you will get responses from people who mean well...But likely don't have anywhere near the experience they might convey or think they have. To me, that's just obvious and just the nature of on online forum. It started off with the bit about 'Location' since that's the specific thing that tripped him up on the topic.
At least that's my take....The whole thing is pretty silly now. You've got guys agreeing and disagreeing, both saying "In my experience blah blah..." and it begs the question; Just what is your experience?
Brian6428 reply :
How do you guys believe this topic relates to tournament fishing?
Todd2 reply :
There is a lot of mention of structure on this site and it's usually generic in nature...nothing specific. The definition of structure is any change in bottom contour, so that basically includes everything except flats. But we know bass move up on flats to feed and sometimes relate to cover on those flats and that's where I often catch the bigger fish. Flats close to deeper water. Of course, in the lake that I fish, most people (including me) consider anything over 3 lbs to be big. A lot of good discussion here. Let's keep it going.
Raul reply :
Flat is bottom contour, therefore it is structure.On 8/29/2014 at 10:46 AM, Todd2 said:There is a lot of mention of structure on this site and it's usually generic in nature...nothing specific. The definition of structure is any change in bottom contour, so that basically includes everything except flats. But we know bass move up on flats to feed and sometimes relate to cover on those flats and that's where I often catch the bigger fish. Flats close to deeper water. Of course, in the lake that I fish, most people (including me) consider anything over 3 lbs to be big. A lot of good discussion here. Let's keep it going.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 10:46 AM, Todd2 said:There is a lot of mention of structure on this site and it's usually generic in nature...nothing specific. The definition of structure is any change in bottom contour, so that basically includes everything except flats. But we know bass move up on flats to feed and sometimes relate to cover on those flats and that's where I often catch the bigger fish. Flats close to deeper water. Of course, in the lake that I fish, most people (including me) consider anything over 3 lbs to be big. A lot of good discussion here. Let's keep it going.
On 8/29/2014 at 11:48 AM, Raul said:Flat is bottom contour, therefore it is structure.
Ditto.
I look at structure from a functional perspective. It's not the fact that points, drops, and flats are objects, it's what happens on those objects that really matters. Realize though that not every flat holds the fish you might be looking for. There's usually more to the story than the given object.
But this is sliding off topic. I see the topic as whether or not big baits offer anything special in terms of attracting/triggering bigger bass, and I think they do. Does this mean that location and timing don’t matter? Absolutely not, and despite what Matt was (maybe over)-reacting to in the OP, no one here is seriously suggesting that location and timing are going to be replaced by some magic bait. Lures catch fish in context only. Those contexts are determined by conditions and circumstances within living systems. That isn't likely to change.
Ginosocalbass reply :
or you can pick up a copy of Bill Siementels "big bass zone" and learn just about everything you really need to know, including what types of locations, baits, and techniques. More importantly it teaches you the right mindset to have when targeting trophy fish.
I don't get to metapausal over people asking for the "magic" bullet, because the majority of those people will not achieve what they are looking for anyways, and if they do... they will not know how or why they caught a big one. Remember this is a hobby and a weekend sport for 95% of the fisherman out there. they are just looking to make the most of there fun time. the fishing Industry has always promoted that mindset anyways, its nothing new... that is how lures get sold.
When I lived out west, I'd get crappy if I didn't see anything over 5lbs.... now that i live in new jersey, a 5lber is most guys personal best fish for a lifetime, and a few avid anglers have been lucky at a 6lber....
Its all about perspective and what you want to do with your fishing time.
SirSnookalot reply :
If one adheres to the old adage that 90% of water has no fish, the 10% will hold the majority of fish, to me that puts location as the #1 factor. Ambush predators of any species generally go after the easiest meal to catch, that's a slow moving bait fished near cover, structure, water color changes, and shadows. One may have to go thru many more small fish to finally hook up with that larger one. It's true bass are caught with faster moving baits targeting aggressive fish more so than ambushers, which actually is my fishing preference, in theory that would make me a prime candidate for these larger lures. For the "one" the big baits aren't a bad way to go, but I do feel fishing structure and cover slowly will catch large fish but ya gotta catch a lot of small ones too.
G8RBob reply :
There is a whole world full of different, "swimbaits." Anyone care to suggest specific brands, models, sizes, etc. It would be appreciated. Thanks.
Mattlures reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 2:52 PM, G8RBob said:There is a whole world full of different, "swimbaits." Anyone care to suggest specific brands, models, sizes, etc. It would be appreciated. Thanks.
Tell me about your lakes and what your bass eat. The idea of catching the biggest bass on swimbaits is to replicate what the biggest bass are eating.
G8RBob reply :
My lakes are typical Florida inland lakes; clear, bottom grass, hyacinths, fairly flat. The fish seem to eat mostly shiners or small panfish. I typically fish with 10 inch zoom worms; watermelon, motor oil or crankbaits. I typically fish in the early morning hours. What else? Thanks.
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
Look up "Mcsnooklovin" on Youtube. David is his name, Florida angler, catches a TON of multi-species fish on MANY different kinds of swimbaits.
Good dude that I consider a friend.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 8/29/2014 at 2:45 PM, SirSnookalot said:If one adheres to the old adage that 90% of water has no fish, the 10% will hold the majority of fish, to me that puts location as the #1 factor. ...
First you have to find them –that’s location.
Then you have to catch them –that’s presentation.
At first, location (and all that encapsulates –gonna lump timing in here for brevity) is 90% of the game. After that, the fundamentals of presentation become 90% of the game. After that, what you choose to throw becomes 90% of the game. After that, tweaking, altering, adjusting can become 90% of the game. There is no one answer. It’s a process.
Where's the missing 10% at each step? That's luck. And stuff I have no control over, or simply don't understand. And to be fair, there's a sliding scale there. 
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 8/31/2014 at 3:26 PM, Paul Roberts said:First you have to find them –that’s location.
Then you have to catch them –that’s presentation.
At first, location (and all that encapsulates –gonna lump timing in here for brevity) is 90% of the game. After that, the fundamentals of presentation become 90% of the game. After that, what you choose to throw becomes 90% of the game. After that, tweaking, altering, adjusting can become 90% of the game. There is no one answer. It’s a process.
Where's the missing 10% at each step? That's luck. And stuff I have no control over, or simply don't understand. And to be fair, there's a sliding scale there.
I agree with a lot of this post, but that 10% ain't luck. If you do everything right with location and presentation, then it is completely up to the bass after that. Either they eat it or they don't.
Let me preface that this is all my opinion, none of it is to be taken as fact, come to your own conclusions.
There has been two fishing definitions of location in this thread; location OF the water, and location ON the water.
In the beginning of your pursuit of big bass, location of the water and habitat conditions in the water are the only factors that matter up to this point. Some regions of the world have climates more conducive to creating truly big bass, and if the habitats within these waters are not optimal, then you are handicapping yourself from the beginning.
Once you get those right, many other factors play into the percentages, with none, I think, being more important than the other. Catching big bass requires a full effort on the anglers part to do/get everything right.
Catch and Grease reply :
When someone says I want to catch big bass they don't want someone to tell them to just go to some private pond down south and catch one, they want the satisfaction of catching it in the waters they regularly fish.
Whether or not a fish is big is relative to the waters you fish. A big fish in one lake may be 4lbs while another place might be 10lbs.
So I don't think your handicapping yourself by fishing anywhere... You just need to know what size bass you are targeting.
But don't expect every body of water to produce 15lb bass like stated above.
A-Jay reply :
Interesting thread, several points of view from some very accomplished anglers.
I love reading this kind of stuff. Really makes me think about my own approach to fishing for the bigger fish in a system.
Quite a bit of the focus of the discussion has revolved around location and with good reason.
My simple but true addition to the thread is this ~ For the past several years, with very few exceptions, my fishing style has consisted of techniques & presentations that target the bigger fish in the systems I'm fishing. This style, though often not super productive, has rewarded me the biggest bass (both lmb & smb) I've caught in those systems - meaning I don't believe that I caught any of these fish by accident. I was targeting them and I'm very satisfied with that. But I always believed that I was capable of more.
What may be noteworthy here is that once I made a commitment to travel & fish habitats that have traditionally given up larger fish than I have been able to catch locally, my Big Bass catching success improved - Dramatically.
I didn't do anything different,(except use slightly heavier tackle) there was no special / magic lure or technique. By simply fishing an environment that supported the size of fish I have always wanted to catch - I did.
So my perspective on the role that location plays in the quest for larger bass is ~ It's not only an important factor ~ It's The Whole Show.
A-Jay
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 8/31/2014 at 11:50 PM, Catch and Grease said:When someone says I want to catch big bass they don't want someone to tell them to just go to some private pond down south and catch one, they want the satisfaction of catching it in the waters they regularly fish.
Whether or not a fish is big is relative to the waters you fish. A big fish in one lake may be 4lbs while another place might be 10lbs.
So I don't think your handicapping yourself by fishing anywhere... You just need to know what size bass you are targeting.
But don't expect every body of water to produce 15lb bass like stated above.
I agree with you, and I would've included that in my post, I just assumed it was common knowledge that standards of what we call big bass is relative to where you are fishing.
On 9/1/2014 at 12:34 AM, A-Jay said:Interesting tread, several points of view from some very accomplished anglers.
I love reading this kind of stuff. Really makes me think about my own approach to fishing for the bigger fish in a system.
Quite a bit of the focus of the discussion has revolved around location and with good reason.
My simple but true addition to the thread is this ~ For the past several years, with very few exceptions, my fishing style has consisted of techniques & presentations that target the bigger fish in the systems I'm fishing. This style, though often not super productive, has rewarded me the biggest bass (both lmb & smb) I've caught in those systems - meaning I don't believe that I caught any of these fish by accident. I was targeting them and I'm very satisfied with that. But I always believed that I was capable of more.
What may be noteworthy here is that once I made a commitment to travel & fish habitats that have traditionally given up larger fish than I have been able to catch locally, my Big Bass catching success improved - Dramatically.
I didn't do anything different,(except use slightly heavier tackle) there was no special / magic lure or technique. By simply fishing an environment that supported the size of fish I have always wanted to catch - I did.
So my perspective on the role that location plays in the quest for larger bass is ~ It's not only an important factor ~ It's The Whole Show.
A-Jay
Phenomenal post! Really hit a chord in me. In relation to my earlier post , would you agree that once you found the environment that had the size you wanted to catch (location OF the water) that everything else you that factors in is equally important to where, on the body of water you are fishing (location ON the water) ?
WRB reply :
Thre is a misconception that all anyone needs to do is tie on a swimbait and go catch big bass.
I am a believer in it's easier to catch active bass than inactive bass. What most anglers don't realize is bass are inactive about 60% of the time! active about 20% and in transition between being active or inactive about 20% of the time each 24 hour period. Your window of time to catch these bass is about 4 hours out of 24 hours. The rest of the time your are hunting to locate where these bass are.
A curious bass may swim up to look at a swimbait, watch for this. Look at your sonar unit for big fish and make a note where and how deep the mark was. My routine is to visit spots that I have located a big fish about every 2 to 3 hours. If I have located several potential big fish, my day is going from spot to spot several times a day (milk run). This routine keeps me busy and focused knowing there are fish in that area, how deep they are and anticipating strikes.
None of this is blind fishing, unless I haven't located any bass, then it's search time. I do a lot of metering with my sonar before fishing. My sonar survey starts in the marina so I can determine the depth to start at, then lures are selected for the cover/ structure I believe the bass are holding.
If you want to consistanly catch big bass you must fish for them!
Tom
A-Jay reply :
On 8/27/2014 at 5:56 PM, Fish_Whisperer said:Ok then...
Most of my big bass have been caught on spro bbz1 jr... It's not a deps 250 or a roman mother, but I get funny looks when I throw it; it's still a pretty big lure. I can say with confidence that I hold top 3 big bass this year in the particular body of water that I frequent. They were caught with the bbz1 jr.
EDIT: What were you getting at with your reply to my post? Yes, Butch Brown is synonymous with swimbait, but he can catch them on other lures, also. The point of my post was that you raised the question But what's the time involved? I know it's no where near smaller baits catching smaller fish, but is it equal in time with smaller baits catching bigger fish?
He can catch multiple dd bass in a day's time. I myself have yet to catch a dd bass, but I do catch larger bass in an area where people catch hardly any fish at all.
On 9/1/2014 at 12:49 AM, Fish_Whisperer said:
Phenomenal post! Really hit a chord in me. In relation to my earlier post , would you agree that once you found the environment that had the size you wanted to catch (location OF the water) that everything else you that factors in is equally important to where, on the body of water you are fishing (location ON the water) ?
Yes.
Additionally I'd like to make two more points.
1. My experience fishing swimbaits is minimal. Though I have a rod, reel and plenty of big baits - I do not fish them any where near as much as others here and definitely less than other methods.
I have caught fish with them and believe them to be a very effective way to catch big bass. So my limited experience & knowledge of the that technique continues to grow.
2. All the bass I've caught from systems I've traveled to and that have been larger than any bass I've taken from local waters (that means a lmb over 7 or a smb over 6) has been taken on one of the following baits:
Jerkbait, Spinnerbait, Lipless Rattle bait, Scrounger head w/ Flukes or Slugg-O, a weighted Fluke & a Jig.
As mentioned, I don't fish Swim Baits that much, doesn't mean they wouldn't have worked as well - I just didn't throw one.
Admittedly, I do not consider myself in the class of many of the fine anglers and authors who are also BR members here. I do believe that if I'm able to put myself around the right fish enough times, sometimes I can catch a few.
So can you.
A-Jay
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 1:32 AM, A-Jay said:Yes.
Additionally I'd like to make two more points.
1. My experience fishing swimbaits is minimal. Though I have a rod, reel and plenty of big baits - I do not fish them any where near as much as others here and definitely less than other methods.
I have caught fish with them and believe them to be a very effective way to catch big bass. So my limited experience & knowledge of the that technique continues to grow.
2. All the bass I've caught from systems I've traveled to and that have been larger than any bass I've taken from local waters (that means a lmb over 7 or a smb over 6) has been taken on one of the following baits:
Jerkbait, Spinnerbait, Lipless Rattle bait, Scrounger head w/ Flukes or Slugg-O, a weighted Fluke & a Jig.
As mentioned, I don't fish Swim Baits that much, doesn't mean they wouldn't have worked as well - I just didn't throw one.
Admittedly, I do not consider myself in the class of many of the fine anglers and authors who are also BR members here. I do believe that if I'm able to put myself around the right fish enough times, sometimes I can catch a few.
So can you.
A-Jay
You're just humble; myself, and I am sure others on here as well, would consider you an excellent stick.
Your post raises some questions in me, and I don't have time to gather my thoughts; taking my family to a super late model dirt race in a few hours.
Good discussion going everyone, and I hope it stays civil and educational.
RoLo reply :
Earlier in this thread, I said that Where, When & How are all key players, that no single element can stand alone,
because success depends on the whole ball-of-wax. On the other hand, I never suggested that equal time
should be devoted to each component 
‘Location’ is a comprehensive science that begins with Waterbody Selection and ends with Cast Placement
(geographic location to bass lair). The lion’s share of my time is spent on ‘location’, both at home and on the water.
Before fishing any new lake, I’ll always have a 'paper route' of trial sites that were meticulously pinpointed at home.
The original waypoints will be tweaked over the years, but the basic framework of the route usually remains
remarkably the same. It goes without saying, this isn't possible without a deep understanding of location,
which makes a compelling case for learning as much about ‘location’ as you can (depth ranges, bottom contour, cover types ~ ~).
Roger
WRB reply :
If CA never had FLMB transplanted into our lakes back in the early 70's (1959 was the first in San Diego lakes) swimbaits may have never been developed. FLMB in Florida waters were genetically wired to eat golden shiners, a large bait fish. Out in CA we didn't have any large bait fish the FLMB preferred, hatchery size rainbow trout filled that gap. The fact the FLMB were far more difficult to catch on the artificial lures we had back then, coupled with the fact our NLMB were easier to catch on lures, it took about a decade to develop trout like swimbaits.
We did learn how to catch the big FLMB on jigs and hand poured worms before swimbaits became well known. Matts bluegill swimbaits were introduced about 15 years after the first wooden and soft plastic trout swimmer and the bluegill have become very popular across the country. Bruce at Basstrix introduced the hollowbody swimbaits and this type of swimmer has a broad appeal to all types of bass.
Keep in mind that NLMB are not wired to eat 8"+ long baitfish, yes a 10 lb+ NLMB can and that size are rare bass in most lakes. If your lake has NLMB than 5" to 6" swimbaits are good choices for targeting 7 lb+ bass.
The NLMB reacts to lures easier than FLMB that seem to prefer more natural lures. Bass are bass, but FLMB are different from NLMB, try to keep that in mind when using swimbaits. Select a swimmer that represents that baitfish the bass are looking for, size and shape is important.
Tom
basseditor reply :
Good info to digest. I guess I'm a cross between Barney and big bass addict. I've been fishing small tournaments for 30+ years and I have had trouble with the get a limit first mentality.
In many events I got big bass of the tournament because I use big bass baits. But I don't limit out all the time, sad but true. In many tournaments a limit will get you a check but I prefer to go after big fish and end up zero or hero.
I need to use swim baits more. I catch a lot of decent bass on Senkos and flukes, but all of my biggest largemouth have come on two baits: 10" PowerWorms and Strike King 6 XDs. (Off topic a little, I've caught hundreds of smallmouth between 5-8 pounds, 99% on sixteenth ounce Gitzits on 6-pound line.) Now that I live in Texas, I use mostly 20 or 25-pound line because I'm always hopeful for that next giant bass.
My question in all this discussion is what does water clarity do to catching swim bait fish? It seems that the clearer lakes have better reputations as swim bait lakes?
Catch and Grease reply :
I'm interested in water claritys affect on swimbaits too, it seems like lots of people would be throwing them in everything but you only seem them really popular on clear water lakes.
I fish lakes with 1-3ft visibility and fish have no problem finding finesse soft plastics so I seriously doubt they would have any trouble finding a big ole swimbait cruising along... Especially one with those big ole thumping paddle tails!
EDIT: Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were developed in the west on clear lakes
WRB reply :
It's been my experience that lakes with good water clarity are also good at night . Keep in mind the bass do not have a problem finding prey that are trying to hide from them in the water the bass live in. I think we as anglers over think and don't know how bass see our lures. If you use a swimbait in off color water then select colors that contrast darker with lighter, the bass will find it if you tie it on and use it.
Tom
Paul Roberts reply :
On 8/31/2014 at 10:16 PM, Fish_Whisperer said:I agree with a lot of this post, but that 10% ain't luck. If you do everything right with location and presentation, then it is completely up to the bass after that. Either they eat it or they don't.
Let me preface that this is all my opinion, none of it is to be taken as fact, come to your own conclusions.
There has been two fishing definitions of location in this thread; location OF the water, and location ON the water.
In the beginning of your pursuit of big bass, location of the water and habitat conditions in the water are the only factors that matter up to this point. Some regions of the world have climates more conducive to creating truly big bass, and if the habitats within these waters are not optimal, then you are handicapping yourself from the beginning.
Once you get those right, many other factors play into the percentages, with none, I think, being more important than the other. Catching big bass requires a full effort on the anglers part to do/get everything right.
I hear you on fishing waters that can grow big fish. I see "location" as meaning -within a given water body. It’s interesting that a lot of the thread is wrangling through the jargon. We anglers often coin our own language, adopt jargon, and use words interchangeably.
I’m also aware of the multiple levels of time and place scaling involved when people talk fishing. Scaling is a tough thing to get a handle on. It’s easy to make the big broad predictions –like water body and season. But things get hairier the closer and finer we get in specific locations and timing.
My giving 10% away to "entropy” was my paying humble homage to the complexities inherent in fishing. Granted, it would have been less complicated had I just used 100% at each step. As I understand it, fishing is a lot about being in control, understanding, knowing where you’re at and what’s up. But to be brutally honest with my ego, I must concede to the fact that most often it’s my hindsight that’s 20:20. My foresight is not so finely resolved. There are too many things (I call them conditions and circumstances) that rear up and dash my best laid plans. So I re-think, adjust, adapt, and in the end, I have a cohesive story. But the story wasn’t written before I left the house. And my final story is always just a little piece of what’s really going on out there. I’m proud of what I do know, and that I know enough to predict at some level and, often, how to adjust. Yet I’m well aware that this works best when I can fish every day. It would work even better if I were an otter. But I’m not.
Quote"They either eat it or they don’t”
Well… interestingly, one angler’s bad day can be another’s boon; even when they're sharing the same boat! We all start as one-trick wonders, and add versatility over time. I’m sure we’ve all had conditions and circumstances when we couldn’t catch a fish, and had someone show us how to do it, or we just figured out a new wrinkle. Some can be real eye openers. I’ve had all kinds of ideas as to why the fish weren’t biting. Many were and are true. But there are more ways in than I presently understand, or manage to decipher in the moment.
WRB reply :
One of the best fish catching swimbaits that I have ever used was a lure called LA Slider by Megabait. This swimbait was inexpensive, had a unique lead head molded on a hook the slide into the soft plastic head of the swimbait. You could change wrights from 3/8 to 1 oz with the swimmer. The LA Slider was made in 6" and 71/2" sizes in trout colors.
The beauty of this swimbait was it cost about $6 for 3 swimmers and 1weight, plus you could buy separate weights. Unlike a Hudd you didn't worry about hanging it up and losing in the brush, so you fished in places that you wouldn't with a more expensive swimbait. Caught a lot of big bass on the LA Slider before they stopped making them due to a patent infringement suit. Still have a few and still catch bass on them!
My point being, you can't catch big bass if you are concerned losing an expensive lure because the lure stays in the boat and not in front of the bass.
Don't over think this thread, tie on a swimmer and fish it!!
Tom
Mattlures reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 6:57 AM, basseditor said:Good info to digest. I guess I'm a cross between Barney and big bass addict. I've been fishing small tournaments for 30+ years and I have had trouble with the get a limit first mentality.
In many events I got big bass of the tournament because I use big bass baits. But I don't limit out all the time, sad but true. In many tournaments a limit will get you a check but I prefer to go after big fish and end up zero or hero.
I need to use swim baits more. I catch a lot of decent bass on Senkos and flukes, but all of my biggest largemouth have come on two baits: 10" PowerWorms and Strike King 6 XDs. (Off topic a little, I've caught hundreds of smallmouth between 5-8 pounds, 99% on sixteenth ounce Gitzits on 6-pound line.) Now that I live in Texas, I use mostly 20 or 25-pound line because I'm always hopeful for that next giant bass.
My question in all this discussion is what does water clarity do to catching swim bait fish? It seems that the clearer lakes have better reputations as swim bait lakes?
I believe swimbaits work better in dirty water then clear. One of the best times to throw a swimbait in clear water is during a storm when its dark and windy. Even if its not dark but windy, the waves brake up the light and camouflage most things under the water especialy your bait. The clear water thing is a huge myth. Ultra realistic swimbaits don't work better in clear water. They may be the only things that works when a big bass can get a real good look at the bait. The idea that, because they work well in clear water they wont on dirty water, makes no sence at all. It is just plain wrong. Think of all the pictures you guys have seen of swimbait fish caught at night. Those swimbaits push a lot of water. They are easier for the bass to find then most small baits when its harder for them to see them. To think that somehow an ultra realistic bait in appearance and action wont work well because the water is not clear is just not reasonable. even in clear waters guys fish deep a lot. The visability is limited the deeper you get. Best case scenario is to put your ultra realistic swimbait in front of a big bass that's willing to eat and have it so it cant see the bait perfectly clear. When a big bass eats a swimbait that it can get a real good look at, in crystal clear water(think deadsticking or a very slow retrieve), then the bait itself deserves credit.
RoLo reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 6:57 AM, basseditor said:My question in all this discussion is what does water clarity do to catching swim bait fish? It seems that the clearer lakes have better reputations as swim bait lakes?
Good question.
Swimbaits are relatively quiet lures, but they produce strong vibration. Although vibration is very important,
it’s not as far-reaching as sound. I would say that water clarity of 2 feet or more is ample for swimbaits,
but it really depends on how you intend to fish the swimbait (distance below the water surface).
If you're going to fish a soft swimbait deep on a heavy jighead, clear water is definitely an asset.
On the other hand, when it's fished just below the surface on a weighted swimbait hook,
the importance of water clarity falls off sharply. I feel comfortable with that statement because our favorite swimbait lake
for big bass has water clarity that normally ranges between 5 and 20 inches (about a foot on balance).
Roger
basseditor reply :
Thanks guys
My next tourney is on a semi clear grass lake. I have some HUD 68 weed less I'm going to try. (After the frog/top water bite slows.)
It's a good A-rig lake this time of year mid-day too. I've never tried Swimbaits there though.
Mainebass1984 reply :
Attention to detail is also very important when targeting big fish. Even the most subtle detail can make the difference between catching one big bass or 10.
SPEEDBEAD. reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 1:15 PM, basseditor said:Thanks guys
My next tourney is on a semi clear grass lake. I have some HUD 68 weed less I'm going to try. (After the frog/top water bite slows.)
It's a good A-rig lake this time of year mid-day too. I've never tried Swimbaits there though.
When you say "semi clear grass lake," I envision throwing a waking bait along weed edges and over submerged beds. Obviously, if it's a mat you're not going to fish a treble hook bait over it but if there is water over the weeds, you can bet a wake bait will call them up.
There are some BIG fish caught on Guntersville and other TN river lakes in the spring over emerging weeds using swimbaits. Brandon P (not even gonna try to spell his last name LOL) is pretty good with the swimbait stick. Watch what he does eventually.
Hope you do well in your tourney.
Ginosocalbass reply :
Though WRB mentions some great info on the bravado of Northern Strain vs Florida Strain bass, I cant stress enough how well a 13" pickeral catches 5lb+ bass. Though most of what he stated is spot on, I'd still say if you are targeting a 5lb+ bass in the northeast, I'd throw a 8"+ swimbaits. fish slow, moving "rate of stall" style swimbaits, Though the fish are much more aggressive to lures, they do shy away from moderate to fast moving big swimbaits.
New Jersey namely has a healthy stocker trout program. And the big bass in those waters stage prior to the stocking just like they do in CA. I'm talking 40 degree water...They don't care. Once the trucks drop off, its game on. Yes, I do believe northern strain fish, are wired to target a smaller forage. They can be definitely be conditioned otherwise,
Fish_Whisperer reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 1:32 AM, A-Jay said:Yes.
Additionally I'd like to make two more points.
1. My experience fishing swimbaits is minimal. Though I have a rod, reel and plenty of big baits - I do not fish them any where near as much as others here and definitely less than other methods.
I have caught fish with them and believe them to be a very effective way to catch big bass. So my limited experience & knowledge of the that technique continues to grow.
2. All the bass I've caught from systems I've traveled to and that have been larger than any bass I've taken from local waters (that means a lmb over 7 or a smb over 6) has been taken on one of the following baits:
Jerkbait, Spinnerbait, Lipless Rattle bait, Scrounger head w/ Flukes or Slugg-O, a weighted Fluke & a Jig.
As mentioned, I don't fish Swim Baits that much, doesn't mean they wouldn't have worked as well - I just didn't throw one.
Admittedly, I do not consider myself in the class of many of the fine anglers and authors who are also BR members here. I do believe that if I'm able to put myself around the right fish enough times, sometimes I can catch a few.
So can you.
A-Jay
So I said I would come back to this, here it goes...
I found it interesting that the list of lures/baits you have caught big bass on have, at some point, been featured in an article where the author says to fish these for big bass.
There's a lot of conflicting information in this thread in which all of it is neither wrong or right. It is just our experiences as anglers. If i have learned anything from this thread, it is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
WRB reply :
Ginosocalbass,
I based my commit on personal experience, observation. As a teen living at Big Bear lake in SoCal mountains and working at boat landings, both Holloways as a manager and Pleasure a Point as a young teen trout were planted weekly. Both landings or marinas had a population of big largemouth bass in the 4 to 6 lbs range ( big for BB ). The bass would swim up to the planted trout and look at them, rarely did I witness a bass eat a planted trout, unless the trout was small under 8". Most of the trout planted in the 50's were over 12" the states minimum legal length back then. The Big Bear bass preferred eating 3" to 4" crappie over everything else including bluegill. 8 lb bass at Big Bear would be the lake record, even today.
Fishing at lake Casitas since '58 and catching NLMB up to 12 lbs at Casitas before FLMB were planted in the early 70's, I never witnessed a bass chasing a planted trout or caught a big 8 lb+ NLMB that had a trout in it's throat. During the late 70's-early 80's bass chasing planted trout became a daily event and catching big bass with trout in the throat became common. The change was FLMB and the fact smaller size trout were planted in the 6" to 10" length during the fall. Bigger FLMB and smaller size planted trout the perfect storm.
Fish_Whisperer,
Take away the fact that big adult size ( female ) bass prey preference differs from smaller size young adult bass. Knowing what prey the big bass are targeting is essential in consistently catching them. If the bass population are eating Threadfin Shad, keep in mind that all predators eat small size shad like crappie and trout, both are big bass prey. During a shad feeding spree big bass are often caught on live shad, big swimbaits and jigs that replicate crawdads feeding on dead shad.on the bottom.
The big bass angler has a lot choices when prey is plentiful, the choices narrow down when a specific prey source is preffered by the big bass. When big bass are looking for big prey use big swimbaits, If they are feeding on crawdads use jigs.
Tom
paangler13 reply :
I'm a Barney, so I'm staying quiet!
I just got to say this is the best thread I have seen on here in years!
JIm
hatrix reply :
On 8/31/2014 at 11:50 PM, Catch and Grease said:When someone says I want to catch big bass they don't want someone to tell them to just go to some private pond down south and catch one, they want the satisfaction of catching it in the waters they regularly fish.
Whether or not a fish is big is relative to the waters you fish. A big fish in one lake may be 4lbs while another place might be 10lbs.
So I don't think your handicapping yourself by fishing anywhere... You just need to know what size bass you are targeting.
But don't expect every body of water to produce 15lb bass like stated above.
If you are talking like some kind of pay lake or place where they are pros at raising some monsters then I agree. With that being said I would not eliminate places that you don't consider to some big body of water or because you think it might be any less challenging. On the contrary some ponds or smaller lakes can be very rough to fish and it seems even more so when you know they are there but you just are not getting them. There are plenty of ponds that can be way more difficult then whatever lake and it might even have bigger fish. There are lakes or ponds that get fished every day all day and just produce and there there is total opposite. A place might rarely get fished or even never and it just doesn't produce for whatever reason. There is also plenty of other challenges that can come into play you will never even face on a boat in the middle of a lake. Where is the place? Can you even get there? If so how? Or so now what when you cant hardly cast any thing. Then do you even have any room where your at to work a lure or even set the hook? I have missed so many fish and nice ones because i hit a little tree or branch setting a hook. It can be a real adventure are challenging to get somewhere you have never been. There might be some good places that are a breeze to cover but the really good ones usually are not and don't always come easy when everything about it is new.
Also boots and a machete can really be game changers. Mostly the machete. I can deal with wet and muddy shoes if I really have to.
On 9/1/2014 at 7:03 AM, Catch and Grease said:I'm interested in water claritys affect on swimbaits too, it seems like lots of people would be throwing them in everything but you only seem them really popular on clear water lakes.
I fish lakes with 1-3ft visibility and fish have no problem finding finesse soft plastics so I seriously doubt they would have any trouble finding a big ole swimbait cruising along... Especially one with those big ole thumping paddle tails!
EDIT: Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were developed in the west on clear lakes
I am not scientist on this one here but it seems and so I like to think most places will be a certain water type a lot of the time or almost always. Fish develop according to it and that becomes there natural way. Super clear places they use sight more or if it is dirty they use the lateral line more. Again I have no scientific data on this but it is a really good bet . Also clear water a hard bait will work better a lot of time and soft stuff in the dirty. It is kind of weird that when they see the best they go for the one with all the hardware hanging off it. Lots of the better places around me are really clear and have tons of weeds. Most of the places I even fish have a good amount of weeds or I try to find them. They are usually better for me then a place with low vis and some rocks scattered around and no weeds. I fish the heck out of some glides now a day over most other types and they draw fish like crazy. Lots of companies have come out with some sort of glide and quite a few of them are really good and the fish just love them. Not only that but they are the most fun to fish. You control everything it can or will do depending how you turn the handle or slightly move the rod. Just knowing how to fish them effectively is kind of a skill of it self and none of them are the same even though they might be similar. They really shine in the clear water where fish will see them from far and come right to it. Fish will literally follow those things the whole cast when that would of never happened. Out on a boat or something when you can see pretty good down I will get giants schools of bluegill and stuff following them. Sometimes there is like 30 of them just hanging out with my glide bait.
On 9/1/2014 at 11:48 AM, WRB said:One of the best fish catching swimbaits that I have ever used was a lure called LA Slider by Megabait. This swimbait was inexpensive, had a unique lead head molded on a hook the slide into the soft plastic head of the swimbait. You could change wrights from 3/8 to 1 oz with the swimmer. The LA Slider was made in 6" and 71/2" sizes in trout colors.
The beauty of this swimbait was it cost about $6 for 3 swimmers and 1weight, plus you could buy separate weights. Unlike a Hudd you didn't worry about hanging it up and losing in the brush, so you fished in places that you wouldn't with a more expensive swimbait. Caught a lot of big bass on the LA Slider before they stopped making them due to a patent infringement suit. Still have a few and still catch bass on them!
My point being, you can't catch big bass if you are concerned losing an expensive lure because the lure stays in the boat and not in front of the bass.
Don't over think this thread, tie on a swimmer and fish it!!
Tom
I am pretty sure Savage Gear makes a lure exactly like this. You might already know that but i am just throwing it out there. I am sure I have seen it on there website before and I don't recall if it is on *** or not. It has a hollow type lead head and a swimbaits goes inside it. It is hearing shape and I actually think it has hearing its name also. It might be just the ticket unless this is old news.
Catch and Grease reply :
I mean don't get me wrong id love to catch a big bass out of any body of water, but it would mean a lot more to me if I could catch it out of my everyday lake I fish....
gulfcaptain reply :
On 9/7/2014 at 12:18 AM, Catch and Grease said:I mean don't get me wrong id love to catch a big bass out of any body of water, but it would mean a lot more to me if I could catch it out of my everyday lake I fish....
Wasn't what this post started out as.....catching the larger fish from the populations we all fish?
Catch and Grease reply :
On 9/7/2014 at 12:25 AM, gulfcaptain said:Wasn't what this post started out as.....catching the larger fish from the populations we all fish?
Yes it was, I'm just saying that in this thread and the thread I made a lot of people were saying things like "go to a private pond" and stuff like that.
gulfcaptain reply :
I find it much more rewarding to pull bigger fish out of the public ponds I fish that people don't tap into. They fish for the 12" fish and once in a while catch a 2-3lb fish, where I target the fish that normally run 3+ . May not catch as many but would rather catch 2 4lb fish then 5 12" fish.
hatrix reply :
I really am not particular in if they are in lakes or ponds or where ever. I do know though that if you pretty much only fish 1 lake and its all the time then it has some kind of place in your heart and that's like your home turf so you want to win the title for you home team not some visitors team. I understand that probably most people are like that and that makes sense. For me though I am on the hunt and always looking for whatever could be next. There are a places I fish way more then others but they are not my lake or pond even though the lake I fish most is on record according to the parks the best LMB lake they have in this system. I have just seen so many times over the years on here people talking about ponds being super easy to catch big fish and just in general looking down somewhat on them compared to some giant impoundment they fish every day. I would say that is not the case at all and it can go either way with the "difficulty" regardless of size. Also I guess because I am not really home bound it can be more rewarding to catch a nice fish out of a new place or one that has given me trouble even though I know there in there. On lakes you can mark for big ones and know the depth and search for bait and blah blah and eventually develop a system of points to hit just like Tom does his "Milk Runs" I am sure he has it down to a T and his success rate is d**n near as good as you could hope for. I do all that to but not at the same skill level thats for sure. He has been catching big fish for whatever it is 30 years or something thats as long as I have been alive. He was throwing big swimbaits and giant lures im sure before they even existed and were called swimbaits. It is like a accomplishment I guess to check off another spot you got a good one from. I have not really been doing this for long at all though so I have tons of places left to travel and so much more I need to try. Lots of people though are just fine where they are or maybe are already fishing a fantastic place and it is probably the best already so why change anything I guess. Lots of places are a little hike from me and I try to reach out as far as I can. Tomorrow I could find a place that i think would be great. Fix it for days and never really do much then pull a 10# or something like that out of it. I would come back and keep fishing it and it never really take off cause it was a hard spot to begin with. I was in the right place at the right time and had a good enough bait to get bit is all. There is no way of really know what could be in there except from past experience and you don't actually know where they are either. You can make some educated guesses but nothing is for sure. I might of got a 6# under some tree before but really chances are I am fairly unlikely to get it there again. They are only there for a short window of time and other then that your going from past experience there or at other places and what has been good.
It seems like ponds are looked down on and somehow a fish from one is lesser. I will admit that you for sure have a better chance to catch a "GIANT" in regards to geography from a pond or something like that then the big lakes. But the bigger waters you have a way better chance of catching quite a few BIG ones in a day. That is usually pretty had to do and there is probably only so many in there to begin with. While it is all done on a "hunch" or whatever you would like to call it. You don't have sonar or sidescan or gps or 15 rods and 20 boxes of tackle and anything under the sun you could need.
One of the biggest fish I have actually caught in a while came from a pond That I have hardly caught anything at and I spent a insane amount of time trying with only a couple fish to show for it. It across the street from a friend and and totally covered in weed top to bottom. You can not really fish anything very well there. There is frogs on top of frogs there is so many literally along the shore when you walk up and all the time you see huge blow ups and giant holes open up where it happened or one did happen. No one ever fishes this place for a fact. My brother and I were probably the first people in 10 years and I even talked with a guy who's father actually build the house when he was a kid and dug the pond. I have caught like 5 fish there but they were all generally of good size and have super fat guts like the ate a base ball or bigger. My brother has like 3 or so and about the same but nothing really great like the one I got.the amount of time spent at this place to fish ratio is by far the worst ever of any place I ever fished. I have used everything you could imagine short of throwing dynamite in there cause I want to know what is down there so bad. But they never bite even though they have never seen a lure or had any one even walk up to this pond. The lady is like some recluse and all the windows are blinded up the grass is 4' tall the houses is falling down and there is 2 corvettes and a couple mustangs and a charger sitting up on the drive way rusting away over the years. That doesn't have any thing to do with this but is so weird to me I can picture while i typed this.
gulfcaptain reply :
Would love to fish the bigger bodies around where I live for sure. Work schedule and parenting responsibilities keep me closer to home and thus smaller local city park ponds which have tons of pressure on them. Good point, once I do purchase a boat with all the toys, the skills I have from fishing the smaller bodies of water as well as experiences will benefit my quest for the larger fish in the populations. Post was started as catching the larger fish in the populations which Matt addressed as well as Tom, Catt, and Raul. All are great anglers with different approaches but all share one thing. The pursuit of the larger fish in their given bodies of water they fish. You can have all the toys, the rods, the lures. But without the experience and technique as well as understanding the fish and reading the conditions that are put in front of you each day you fish then you will only give you half of the puzzle. It doesn't matter the size of the water you're fishing, bigger fish in a system will be harder to catch for the everyday angler or "Barney" as they were labeled in this post until they have all the pieces and learn to put them together in order to produce larger fish from the population from any body of water on a consistant basis.
hatrix reply :
On 9/7/2014 at 2:13 AM, gulfcaptain said:Would love to fish the bigger bodies around where I live for sure. Work schedule and parenting responsibilities keep me closer to home and thus smaller local city park ponds which have tons of pressure on them. Good point, once I do purchase a boat with all the toys, the skills I have from fishing the smaller bodies of water as well as experiences will benefit my quest for the larger fish in the populations. Post was started as catching the larger fish in the populations which Matt addressed as well as Tom, Catt, and Raul. All are great anglers with different approaches but all share one thing. The pursuit of the larger fish in their given bodies of water they fish. You can have all the toys, the rods, the lures. But without the experience and technique as well as understanding the fish and reading the conditions that are put in front of you each day you fish then you will only give you half of the puzzle. It doesn't matter the size of the water you're fishing, bigger fish in a system will be harder to catch for the everyday angler or "Barney" as they were labeled in this post until they have all the pieces and learn to put them together in order to produce larger fish from the population from any body of water on a consistant basis.
I agree totally that it takes a level of knowledge and dedication to fish for the big ones and actually catch them. Matt had even said that he fishes ponds and it makes no difference where it comes from as big ones are hard to catch no matter where its from. they dont just jump out of the water onto you hook because people never fish there. He also said he will use live bait to get a giant with no qualms about it and catching for crayfish to use has produced tons of nice ones and works great. How ever you can get it short of snagging for them or something is what you might have to do.
Also I know your pain on the public lake and park lakes. Some of them are brutal and I know they hold good fish and I have caught some. It the access to places you can get or even can or are allowed to go that can make it super hard. You had better just hope there are some where in the area you are fishing since you cant reach anywhere else. Sometimes its like casting from the bank of a place that is 1000 acres + if they are not there you are just straight up waisting your time. You are probably not going to get to them and had better hope they just find you.
Its mostly bobber fishermen or people catfishing. They dont catch bass often and on average the amount of people who actually go there for bass is really low overall. But they can make it hard and I think a lot of it is that bucket. There is a lake by me that used to be pretty good but now it is literally d**n near fished out totally. The amish totally ravaged that placed and its good size. They would fish that place all day every day in monsterous groups and keep any thing they caught no matter what. They dont follow any law or whatever might be in place. They make there own rules i guess and do what they want.
SirSnookalot reply :
I think the main reason the upper sizes of any species may be more difficult to catch is because there are less of them. Secondly when targeting ambush type fish quite often the larger ones seem to be a bit more stationary, they may feed less because they don't require constant calories to fuel their metabolism. A fish that roams is burning more calories and IMO more aggressive.
I do think more fish will be caught with smaller baits, after some thought I do think the chances of catching a really nice fish are greater with a larger lure, but it won't happen too often. Timing is the most important factor, casting to the exact spot at the exact time is going to determine no fish, small fish or maybe a larger one, something I have no control over. If I have no control then luck is playing a big part.
gulfcaptain reply :
On 9/7/2014 at 2:54 PM, SirSnookalot said:
I do think more fish will be caught with smaller baits, after some thought I do think the chances of catching a really nice fish are greater with a larger lure, but it won't happen too often.
I'm going to have to disagree. My PB this summer is just at 9lb, fished that body of water the day before and fished it as I normally would. Out of frustration decided to throw a 6" swimbait. First cast had a 6+ lb fish chase the bait right to the bank (follow) which showed me that I could get their attention. If I had another 15ft I probably could have gotten her to bite as she came in aggressively. Just ran out of real estate. Next day came back with the swimbait gear...about 10am first fish I happened to see sitting off the bank was that 9lb fish. One cast past her and she inhaled the bait. Another area happened to have another 6-10fish in the 4-8lb range follow, nip and show interest in the bigger baits where there was none before. Big baits draw bigger fish out of cover when they are looking for the biggest meal with the least amount of effort. I've had 12" bass chase a 8" swimbait.....small baits will catch bigger fish, but day in and day out, larger offerings will produce a consistantly larger catches. And in the middle of July there aren't any trout in the ponds I fish, but the fish will still not pass up that chance to take a larger meal when it presents itself. I just need Matt to make a baby duck swimbait now for those fish in the late spring and summer that target those yellow balls of goodness.
slonezp reply :
On 9/5/2014 at 12:58 AM, paangler13 said:I'm a Barney, so I'm staying quiet!
I just got to say this is the best thread I have seen on here in years!
JIm
Apparently you've never read any of Raiders threads
Catch and Grease reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 12:56 AM, slonezp said:Apparently you've never read any of Raiders threads
Let me correct him "fishing related threads"
JustinHarantFishing reply :
That is great...awesome write up. Last Friday I was out and I wanted a big fish I picked up a 3/4 ounce jig and threw a rage tail lobster on their...big profile big bait big fish...now I live in maryland 3/8-1/2 ounce jig is regular but I stepped it up and ya know what...i caught one fish all day and my boat captain caught 0...but I got this Swamp donkey.
JustinHarantFishing reply :
That is great...awesome write up. Last Friday I was out and I wanted a big fish I picked up a 3/4 ounce jig and threw a rage tail lobster on their...big profile big bait big fish...now I live in maryland 3/8-1/2 ounce jig is regular but I stepped it up and ya know what...i caught one fish all day and my boat captain caught 0...but I got this Swamp donkey.
RSM789 reply :
On 9/1/2014 at 5:41 AM, WRB said:If CA never had FLMB transplanted into our lakes back in the early 70's (1959 was the first in San Diego lakes) swimbaits may have never been developed...Bass are bass, but FLMB are different from NLMB, try to keep that in mind when using swimbaits. Select a swimmer that represents that baitfish the bass are looking for, size and shape is important.
Tom
That plays into the location argument, in this case "location" meaning the body of water.
For example, there are 2 small private lakes here in Orange County, CA that are less than 5 miles away from each other - Lake Mission Viejo & Lake Forest. Both are "development" lakes built in the 1970's to help sell homes but that is their only similarity. Mission Viejo is gin clear, over 50 ft. deep at the dam, has FLMB and stocks rainbow trout in the winter. They don't allow fishing within 30 feet of any private dock and have a full time marine biologist on staff. Lake Forest has much less visibility thanks to runoff from the street, deepest spot is 12 feet, has NLMB and hasn't received a stocking of any fish for decades. It has the feel of a pond more than a lake.
Mission Viejo regularly pumps out DD bass, including the 13th largest ever, a 19.7 in 2006. It is a big bass factory. Lake Forest on the other hand produces maybe 1 or 2 fish over 8lbs per year, even though it has a healthy bass population (main forage is bluegill). While a bigger bait will increase your chance to catch a pig at Lake Forest, your odds increase exponentially if you instead fish Mission Viejo. You can't catch what isn't there.
I am not trying to say that the baits don't make a difference, they do as long as you keep the environment in perspective. It is kind of like if you went catfishing & used night crawlers or chicken livers as bait; your experience will be like Barney. Frozen mackerel would remove the smaller fish from the equation and increases your percentage for a big catfish dramatically.
Ginosocalbass reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 5:37 AM, RSM789 said:That plays into the location argument, in this case "location" meaning the body of water.
For example, there are 2 small private lakes here in Orange County, CA that are less than 5 miles away from each other - Lake Mission Viejo & Lake Forest. Both are "development" lakes built in the 1970's to help sell homes but that is their only similarity. Mission Viejo is gin clear, over 50 ft. deep at the dam, has FLMB and stocks rainbow trout in the winter. They don't allow fishing within 30 feet of any private dock and have a full time marine biologist on staff. Lake Forest has much less visibility thanks to runoff from the street, deepest spot is 12 feet, has NLMB and hasn't received a stocking of any fish for decades. It has the feel of a pond more than a lake.
Mission Viejo regularly pumps out DD bass, including the 13th largest ever, a 19.7 in 2006. It is a big bass factory. Lake Forest on the other hand produces maybe 1 or 2 fish over 8lbs per year, even though it has a healthy bass population (main forage is bluegill). While a bigger bait will increase your chance to catch a pig at Lake Forest, your odds increase exponentially if you instead fish Mission Viejo. You can't catch what isn't there.
I am not trying to say that the baits don't make a difference, they do as long as you keep the environment in perspective. It is kind of like if you went catfishing & used night crawlers or chicken livers as bait; your experience will be like Barney. Frozen mackerel would remove the smaller fish from the equation and increases your percentage for a big catfish dramatically.
Its all perspective, like a previous post i mentioned....experiencing both extreme ends of the spectrum. Out here a 6-7lber is a massive giant. a 5lber is a trophy...
The principles of targeting 12+lber in Cali and a 6lber is Jersey are still the same. you still have to fish the bigger baits and target the bigger fish. They still pattern differantly than the smaller fish.
Trophy hunters who are chasing world record size fish get tired of 6-8lb bass.... Its all about perspective.
Believe it or not, a majority of the bass in those lakes are hybrid strain fish, largely by accident. The true trophy giants that you see are not 100% Florida strain or 100% northern. They are about a 20%(Northern) 80%(Florida) genetic makeup. You get the longevity of northern bass, and the growth speeds and size of Florida strain. Its the same with the bass in Japan, they get the benefit of handling colder weather from there northern strain genes. Biwa freezes over, not completely. but they see lower water temps than any of the trophy southern California bass experience, and they are still producing these top 20 heavyweights, including the new world record. Japan doesn't cater or manage here bass fishery, Bass are considered invasive. and are by law to be killed if caught. They aren't propped up by a trout stocking program (look at the quality of trout stocked in Cali, deformed, no tails...etc. its a joke) but they have an abundance of forage all year long.
The biggest misconception about catching big bass is that people judge there trophy based on other peoples trophys. Catching giant bass should be a personal goal. weather its 5lbs, or 20lbs. Go target the biggest fish in your fishery, MV lake is private, I've fished it and fished both those lakes, I grew up in that area. Drive north to some of the city lakes in LA county. You'll have an oppertunity at a 10-15lb fish, they are public lakes.
gulfcaptain reply :
Matt never started this post as a TROPHY FISHING ONLY post. It was about targeting the larger population. MV has trout, Lake Forest bluegill. If you threw a bluegill sized bait....jig, swimbait, wakebait in the larger size you would be targeting the 4+lb fish in that body of water which would be the larger models if 8lb is big. I think most consider fish over 4lbs to be above average fish. At that point they have made it to the upper food chain and can pretty much forage on what they want without really having to worry about being eaten by another bass in the system.....Tom mainly fishes jigs and has stated that, Matt is a swimbait guy, both use larger baits targeting larger avg fish. Weather it be northerns or florida's when you fish bigger baits you will on avg catch the larger fish in that population.
hatrix reply :
@gulfcaptian there has been duck baits out for a while now. Lots of guys use them. There big with musky guys also. I use to sit on my friends back deck and we would watch musky eat the baby ducks and geese all the time. It might sound mean but it is actually really awesome to watch.
RSM789 reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 7:10 AM, gulfcaptain said:Matt never started this post as a TROPHY FISHING ONLY post. It was about targeting the larger population...Weather it be northerns or florida's when you fish bigger baits you will on avg catch the larger fish in that population.
I re-read his initial post & I see what you are saying. He was talking about putting the odds in your favor.
Since the two lakes in my example are so close in proximity, my point was that targeting the larger population may best be served by changing locations (assuming you had access to both lakes). If your goal is to catch bigger fish, one lake will out produce the other. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine Barney with his Senkos fishing on MV catching as many big bass as the expert using big swimbaits & jigs on Lake Forest, because Barney put the odds in his favor by choosing the different location. Now if he changed his tactics & lures, his percentage would go up even further.
However, I am not a big bass expert, I just enjoy finding & catching bass. Like many folks, I have limited time to get on the water, so part of the enjoyment is action. If someone who does target the larger population says that I am wrong, I really don't have the credentials to disagree.
gulfcaptain reply :
Not wrong, it's just increasing your odds on the body or bodies of water you fish. Weather it be the larger fish in a northern lake or one stocked and managed that's privately owned. I fish Northern OC so don't really fish much of South OC, but the bodies of water I do fish I concentrate my efforts on the bigger 4+ lb fish in the systems instead of hoping to catch a 12" fish amid the 8" fish. Welcome to the forums and discussion.
gulfcaptain reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 7:35 AM, hatrix said:@gulfcaptian there has been duck baits out for a while now. Lots of guys use them. There big with musky guys also. I use to sit on my friends back deck and we would watch musky eat the baby ducks and geese all the time. It might sound mean but it is actually really awesome to watch.
Looks like I'm going to be doing some looking around for them.....have any good ideas where to start?
Paul Roberts reply :
On 9/7/2014 at 2:54 PM, SirSnookalot said:I think the main reason the upper sizes of any species may be more difficult to catch is because there are less of them. Secondly when targeting ambush type fish quite often the larger ones seem to be a bit more stationary, they may feed less because they don't require constant calories to fuel their metabolism. A fish that roams is burning more calories and IMO more aggressive.
I do think more fish will be caught with smaller baits, after some thought I do think the chances of catching a really nice fish are greater with a larger lure, but it won't happen too often. Timing is the most important factor, casting to the exact spot at the exact time is going to determine no fish, small fish or maybe a larger one, something I have no control over. If I have no control then luck is playing a big part.
Both survival and growth in large part come down to having enough food. Bass that cannot find enough food may become roamers. Some of these fish however may actually hit the jackpot -schools of trout perhaps. There's a chunk of research that suggests that when there's enough food in a given area, bass roam less. So, yes, BIG bass may be less apt to be roamers in many waters. But this is not a hard and fast rule.
John Hope’s telemetry efforts in Texas lakes showed that the largest bass were what he called “flushers”, that were actively hunting and flushing prey. “Ambushing” (not an accurate term when pertaining to bass, but adequate when used loosely) he said was relegated to shallow water bass, all of which were less than 7lbs. Such strategies would likely be reversed in many Florida waters, say.
I guess my point is that metabolic efficiency does not preclude aggressiveness.
hatrix reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 8:04 AM, gulfcaptain said:Looks like I'm going to be doing some looking around for them.....have any good ideas where to start?
I am not sure who makes them. I have only seen a few pop up for sale but I know they are out there somewhere. They are not going to be cheap either. I don't remember what they go for but they could run like $40-$100 for them.
Swimbait forums will maybe be your best bet to find one.
Mainebass1984 reply :
This has been a very interesting topic. I have been following it since it started. I target big bass in Maine and Vermont. Sure they aren't 15lbers like in CA but the are a still a challenge to catch. Not very often do you hook into 6 plus pounders up here in New England. They are true trophies out here. A lot of bass fisherman I know would argue a 5 lber is a trophy out here. It takes a long time for a New England bass to attain 5 lbs. By that time they are wary, probably have been caught before and have seen there fair share of lures. It is interesting to see and hear the opinions on targeting bigger bass. A lot of has ben covered on the topic, putting the odds in your favor, fishing bigger baits, swim baits, jigs, location, etc. Everything mentioned definitely helps and will catch big bass. IN my own opinion location is a big factor. On every body of water all across the country there are specific locations that will time and again hold big fish. Attention to detail is very beneficial in my own opinion when it comes to targeting big trophy class bass. It can be the smallest detail in the lure your throwing or a subtle change in bottom contour, or a small tree branch in 15 feet of water. One thing is for sure you cant consistently catch trophy class fish if your not on the water targeting them. I live to fish for big bass. It is what I have a passion for.
Raul reply :
Once the therm "big bass" is applied immediately the thread becomes about NLMB or FLMB or F1LMB and how two subspecies behave this way or thata way and so on. The thread is about catching big bass, so any 5 lb is a big bass no matter where you are and no matter which subspecies it belongs to, people that have never caught a 5 lber bass don´t have any idea of how really big is a 5 pounder, and that is what you desire to catch.
Location, timing, bait, presentation.
Location: not only means the geographical zone it also means within a body of water which places are most likely to hold the bigger fish, if 90% of the water is fishless and only 10% holds fish bigger fish are only found in even more reduced places from that 10% you go down easily to 20% or 30%, so that means that only 2 to 3% of the water surface holds bigger fish. The hard part is finding and identifying those spots.
Timining: can be seen from different angles, your bait has to be when the fish is there, the "location" may be right but the timing is not, if big fish were permanent residents of a spot then in theory you should be able to catch them over and over again, the catch is that they are not always there, they are there in specific time frames that can be determined by many environmental factors that make a spot suitable for the big fish to be thee, it can be throughout the day and it can vary from day to day extending all the way throughout the year. Matt mentioned.
Lure type: we are not discussing about swimbaits vs other baits, swimbaits are tools like the other baits and they may work for you or not; I said, "swimming swimbaits do not work for me", but what does this mean ? swimming swimbaits do not catch for me the size of fish I´m looking for, that doesn´t mean that I don´t cath 5, 6 or 7 pounders but I´m not after 5, 6 or 7 pounders, I´m after 8+ lb fish and I´m after my new PB, so if you are after a 5, 6, or 7 or 8 lbers hell, yes, I´m pretty shure swimbaits will catch you those fish. My special jig/Brush Hog combination consistently catches me the size of fish I´m after ( Interestingly enough is the fact that nor my first 10+ nor my PB, nor my second largest were caught with that combination. ).
Presentation: To me slow methodical almost arthritic snail pace is what works for catching the size of fish I seek ( to others it may be different ) why ? because once I speed up then every single idiotic smaller fish feels like it has been invited to the party, that is my experience. So why is it that I caught those 3 fish with "non big momma baits" , what I said ? slow and methodical, first trophy with a Rapala Original Minnow, ocassional twitches just barely making the bait dive it´s nose, PB with a Rapala Shad Rap modified to suspend, same thing, suspending with ocassional twitches just to make the bait wiggle a little bit, second largest, 5" senko, slowly and methodically dragged and barely hopped.
The elements have to be in harmony. Let me give you an example, my compadre and I have been fishing partners for more than 15 years, we fish together from the same boat so I´m here and he is 8 ft away, that means we fish the same location, we have made casts to the same spot with identical baits and I catch better fish than him, it ain´t that the Gods love me, it´s that one of the elements ---> presentation is different; he has his style and I have my style and what I have noticed is that he fishes "faster" than I.
So good luck gentlemen in your quest for bigger fish just remember: to dance with the fat lady you have to be where the fat lady is, when the fat lady is and ask her with the right words if she wanna dance with you.
everythingthatswims reply :
On 8/26/2014 at 11:47 PM, adam lancia said:I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread, there's lots of great pointers being made. Which leads me to several questions: I live in Nova Scotia and we only have SMB, no LMB. I would say the largest ones being caught regularly are in the 3-4 Lb range. I am only not starting to diversify and figure out what's working for me and what isn't. As much as the locals are helpful, most of it is the same as what you have said about the blind squirrel. Lots of senko's being thrown and the occasional big (for around here) bass being caught. Typically, I will use 4 spinning rods for various soft plastics: wacky and texas rigged senko's, texas rigged super flukes, and then either a tube jig or a shaky head. I also have smaller top water lures (poppers etc) but just recently picked up a Zara Spook. I also throw spinnerbaits. My questions is, where do I start with swimbaits? Should I try to match the kind of bait fish that are in the various lakes, or go with the coours and patterns of the senko's and flukes that usually catch fish? How big is too big a bait to throw when the bass aren't California/Texas huge? I want to maximize my time fishing these because I don't get out on a boat too often. I don't have my own boat, just a kayak. I usually tag along with a friend of mine when he goes out for a few hours after work. I realize that lure selection and tactics are going to be different based on my location, I'm really just looking for some general guidelines and principles to get started. If there are any good articles worth reading or videos worth watching, links would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for being so helpful guys!
Get a couple s-waver 168s, (replace the hooks!) probably perch colored for you or one in a shiner/herring color if you have any silver colored baitfish. And for some odd reason the "lite trout" gets hammered even though it doesn't look like anything (trout aren't yellow haha). 17lb or 20lb fluoro would be a good choice, and make sure you have enough rod to set the hook! Smallies love the 168, I caught my PB smallie @23" on one, and plenty in the 12-16" range, little smallies will hammer the s-wavers, don't worry about not getting numbers because you will slay them.
adam lancia reply :
Thanks for the suggestion, those will end up on my winter shopping list!
WRB reply :
Persuader Lures make a duck lure for about $16, need to upgrade the hooks!On 9/8/2014 at 8:04 AM, gulfcaptain said:Looks like I'm going to be doing some looking around for them.....have any good ideas where to start?
Tom
Brian6428 reply :
Oh boy, this thread got brought up again. I asked a question a few pages back, but it never got answered, so I'll give it another go.
How does this topic (namely swim baits) relate to tournament fishing? Are there guys throwing them that are winning tournaments? If not, why?
deep reply :
Brandon Palaniuk.
Maxximus Redneckus reply :
One misconception is big bass can only be caught in deep water,all of my big bass been in water 5 ft or less.both my 10 and 9 where in 3 fow
WRB reply :
A-rigs were a tournament game changer, now they are banned from most events. When Clear Lake in CA was on the trail, swimbaits dominated and when Amistad was going good swimbaits were key lures there.
Keep in mind that 5 bass weighing 3 lbs weigh more than 1bass 10 lb bass.
Tom
WRB reply :
The vast majority of DD bass are caught during the spawning cycle; pre spawn through post spawn when bass move into shallow water. The big bass still are uncomfortable in shallow water and prefer a deep water exit close by during day time.On 11/5/2014 at 8:08 AM, Maxximus Redneckus said:One misconception is big bass can only be caught in deep water,all of my big bass been in water 5 ft or less.both my 10 and 9 where in 3 fow
Tom
Senko lover reply :
I don't really fish anywhere where you could catch a big bass. One of my ponds is rumored to have a 7-8 pounder in it, but it is a very small pond and high, highly pressured. Not that I wouldn't mind catching her .
Thanks for the tips.
2833-34497 reply :
On 9/8/2014 at 8:04 AM, gulfcaptain said:Looks like I'm going to be doing some looking around for them.....have any good ideas where to start?
Here's a couple things I've have seen on Duck Swimbaits by Trap Bass Baits Duck Jr!
hatrix reply :
On 11/5/2014 at 7:18 AM, deep said:Brandon Palaniuk.
^^ Yes sir and he will throw the big stuff also. Not the kinda big new to swimbaits stuff. 10" is definitely not out of the question.
One thing I guess with the tournaments is the 8' rod deal. There really isn't a ton of rods you can choose from and even less when you start talking about rod you want for the biggest stuff. Lots of guys have custom stuff and the really heavy ones often times exceed 8'
I am not exactly sure what Brandon uses though.
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