Bass do learn!!! they are smarter then you think Read this 2024

Mattlures reply : http://bassbuzz.outdoorsfanmedia.com/br_news_article.asp?thecat=2&id=257

Catt reply :

Keep in mind Dr. Keith Jones is talking about bass in an aquarium

Associative Learning- Dr. Jones writes, is proven by laboratory experiments

Habituation-Examples would include fish in an aquarium

Spatial-according to Dr. Jones, bass in the laboratory

How many people fish in an aquarium?

Proven scientific fact and accepted widely through the scientific community are those creatures in captivity do not act the same as creatures in the wild.

I do agree bass learn to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out home territories; I also believe bass recognize prey images.

Mattlures reply :

Catt I used to fish golf ponds alot and I could edjucate a pond in about 3-4 trips. For instance, I would hammer them on a buzzbait but each trip I would get less bites. However these fish still wanted topwater they just didnt want the buzzer anymore. I could get them on a poper or wakebait or jitterbug etc. Each time though the bait would fade and a different top water bait would shine. I have no doubt that these fish learned to assosiate something negative or at least that the bait was not real food. The reason this was so obvious was the small population of fish in the ponds. In a lake there are thousands, maybe even millions of bass so even though you may edgucate a small percentage of fish it would take a verry long time and many many anglers using the same bait to "teach" the fish. I do believe this happens when a hot bite is well known. It ususly lasts for a while but then it tappers off. The fish got conditioned. This is also why big fish are harder to catch. Yes there are less of them but I am sure at leastone big fish has seen joe fishermans offering almost every time he goes out. those big fish have learned not to eat lures.

This is one reason why ultra realistic swimbaits produce big bass. When a bass eats a Hudd it belives its eating a trout. when a bass eats a crankbait or spinnerbait it sees an oportunuty and reacts. The more realistic the bait OR THE MORE natural (worms) the harder it is for a bass to recognize it as a negative thing. I firmly believe bass are not dumb. the biggest and oldest of everysingle animal species has learned to adapt and survive. They are smarter or more experianced then the younger ones. Bass are no different. small ones are stupid and make alot of mistakes. The big ones have learned from their mistakes and dont make them very often. Its survival of the fittest/smartest

I see this all the time in the ocean too. If a paddy gets hammered the other fish wont bite. you get a few passes and the fish see the ones getting caught and they wise up real quick. This is with live bait in the ocean!!!! Throw out a chovie not attched to a line and they eat it. There are millions of example af animals getting conditioned and becoming more conditioned as they get older. I think it is illogical to not recognize this

Catt reply :

There is no doubt bass will turn off on certain baits, I've fished too many years not to understand this. I've started of the morning throwing a bait only to have the bass stop hitting it but change retrieval speeds or colors and have the bass start hitting it again.

My point on Dr. Jones research is at what point do the bass in an aquarium quit being a wild creature and become a pet?

Dr. Jones's whole research data is based on bass not in a pond, creek, river, lake, or reservoir but an aquarium!

If I put a whitetail deer in a 5 acre plot and the only food it gets is from me and I observe the actions of that deer is this a viable observation of deer in the wild?

Direct quote from Dr. Jones

There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that. For example, spinnerbaits once a dominant presentation for top pros seem a forgotten bait now. Small worms, swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced it.

1902: James Heddon receives his Fish-Bait patent for a floating wooden lure carved from a barrel bung, or plug

1915: The William J. Jamison Co. introduces the Shannon Twin Spinner, a gaudy lure of red feathers, white bucktail, and two blades attached to a wire weedguard. This is the forerunner of today's spinnerbaits.

1934: Fred Arbogast carves his first Jitterbug

1936: Lauri Rapala invents the Rapala lure. Rapala lures are now sold in 140 countries and are responsible for more world record fish than any other lure.

1949: Nick and Cosma Crème of Akron, Ohio, melt plastic on their kitchen stove, pour it into molds, and create the first modern soft-plastic worm- the Crème Wiggle Worm.

1967: Fred Young carved the first Big O fishing lure from a block of balsa wood; he created a legacy that has endured for decades. After 30 years, the Cotton Cordell Big O lure is still an active part of crankbait and fishing tackle history.

Don't sound like they learned to well

Low_Budget_Hooker reply :

Great info but I fish for Bass in Lakes, not tanks. I know I would behave differently if I were in a cell, I don't see why another wild animal would be different.

Any data acquired would be useless, even misleading, for me, as I don't target domesticated fish.

ex: My Oscar will eat a piece of broccoli out of my hand, I wouldn't expect that to happen if I go to the Nile or Amazon where they are found naturally.

LCpointerKILLA reply :

I have single handedly put serious fishing pressure on several golf course ponds, it got to the point where my success would depend on if the lure was some offbeat thing they had never seen before.

J Francho reply :

I think its valid to tank test the fishes' response. I also agree with Catt and Russ that any somewhat intelligent fish can be acclimated and conditioned. The problem is when you test one small aspect in the lab, and then apply one huge grand concept as an explanation for the results. I like those tests Dr. Jones did with fishing line and counting the bumps. That was cool. They bumped into FC more than any other line. What does it all mean? LOL.

After my experience in raising and breeding over 120 species of cichlids, depending on the species, it usually takes only a couple of weeks to domesticate a wild caught fish. There are exceptions, and some take months, but for the most part, in about two weeks they will be "begging" when you approach the tank - for farm raised or tank raised fish, this takes mere hours after being moved.

But the more important question to me is, how long does that conditioning last? What I mean is, the fish had a negative experience with a bait, and probably won't bite it again for a while. How long is "a while"?

Bassin_Fin@tic reply :

Quote
I have single handedly put serious fishing pressure on several golf course ponds, it got to the point where my success would depend on if the lure was some offbeat thing they had never seen before.

x1000

A few of the small couple acre ponds I fish had no obvious pressure at least for quite some time. When wefirst started fishingthem it really didn't matter what color,what speed,what size,or really what lure it was as long as the location and conditions were correct for the lure choices.In on lake in particular we could expect at minimum 20 fish on the worst of days and on good days at least 10 of the fifty or more fish we caught would be between 4-8 lbs. Now one year later after countless lure changes,size changes,weights,depths,retrieves,it is extremely uncommon to even catch one 3 pounder.If I could get into a school of 2 lb fish and catch 10 I would call it a very good day.There is no one else fishing this lake except a couple neighbors that mostly bobber fish for pans and catfish. These fish do not live in an aquarium,and they didn't just pack up and move somewhere else.

In a place like that i think it is more than just seeing and hearing the lures.The sound of the boat,the motor,the fishfinder,any angler noise whatsoever or shadows,anchors etc. they will associate with danger. The place is so chock full of shad,tilapia,and bit size bluegills that the fish are no longer interested in moving things that look out of place scurrying along or swimming erratically.They just want the real thing and know it when the sense it.

I agree however that we cannot give the fish too much credit for being such an intelligent creature.They can put 2 and 2 together and their instincts tell them the best way to survive.

kickbasskid reply :

I have fished the same golf course pond for the last two years. I have use the exact same bait every time. Brown worm with neon green tail. The last 5 times I fished there I caught 2 fish in 2 casts and left. I now think I should stop using the bait so I don't catch all the fish. I one time caught 11 bass in one hour there.

BARON49_Northern NY reply :

Interesting read. I think it was InFisherman that did a simular study or published an article simular to this. It was pointed out that not all baits get "learned" by bass. An example is a jig and pig, seems there is something about the profile that so closely resembles natural food that they hit it time after time anyway.

Did anyone else read about this?

paul. reply :

i will go a step further. i think bass are not only conditioned to avoid biting certain lures on occasion, but i think sometimes they can even be conditioned to avoid biting, or at least biting as well, during certain highly pressured times and/or at certain highly pressured locations. i've seen all of that.

what happens in a week in a tank may take a month in a small pond. it may take 2 months on a big pond. might take 4 months on a small lake. might take 8 months on a bigger lake. might take so long on a reservoir that it is hardly perceptible when you factor in (a) there is so much more water, ( most fishermen typically fish differently during different seasonal periods, © to some degree, the fish typically get a break during the winter months or "off season" on all but our southernmost waters so for lack of a better term, they "forget" their education.

i'm not saying that i think fish are geniuses, but to me at least, it's pretty obvious they DO learn and become conditioned. i could list example after example with not only bass, but other species as well on some of the waters i fish.

make no mistake though, like matt, i believe that fish are much smarter than we give them credit for. yes, by virtue of our vastly superior intelligence, we should be able to outsmart them and "figure them out" 100% of the time. but we don't. we forget that they have "home field advantage". we have to enter their world and "beat them at their own game" so to speak and that's not always easy.

someone who assumes fish are completely stupid and cannot learn or be conditioned must be either: (a) right in their assumption and can catch fish at will, better than all or most other fisherman, because after all the fish are equally as stupid for all of us, ( right in their assumption but to some degree ALWAYS outwitted by a pathetically stupid creature, casting doubt upon their own intelligence, or © wrong in their assumption that fish are completely stupid and cannot learn. sorry, but these are the only possible scenarios i see.

trust me y'all, there have been plenty of times when i've left the lake feeling like i was the stupid one.

Paul Roberts reply :

"You c'aint outwit a turkey, 'cuz a turkey ain't got no wits."

-anonymous Appalach'n tiurkey hunter

fourbizz reply :

Quote
"So much individual variation in learning rates exists that at one time, Texas Parks & Wildlife explored the potential of developing a genetic race of dumb bass."

They could just transplant a bunch of the fish from LBH's lake. ;D

Sam reply :

According to Uncle Homer Circle in one of his publications, he saw larger bass go into structure and not move when they heard a trolling motor.

This occurred when he and Glen Lau were filming one of their videos about bass fishing.

If Uncle Homer says it, then that's the truth. Period!

fourbizz reply :

So Catt, you are saying that the aquarium data is not at all useful because the fish have learned about their environment and become conditioned to it?

Mattlures reply :

To say the results are useless because it happened in an aqurium is absurd. Yes some of thier habbits will change but they dont become smart because they were put in a cage. They learned to aviod certain baits. That is the point. in this one fact the aqarium is irrelevant.

The fact that the bass learned to aviod those baits proves that bass learn. But this should have never been in doubt. its obvious. Every single animal learns to aviod danger or it dies and becomes extinct. bass are no different. If you choose to not except this then you are underestimating your openent and that just hurts you.

As for worms still working after years in a pond that is very explainable. A worm is so simple and natural it has very little negative ques. Try fishing that same worm using 50lb flourescent mono. The fish will learn to aviod that line. the more natural and realistic a bait is the harder it is for them to learn. If a bass has spent years eating dragon flies and make a fly that looks just like one, it would have a hard time learning to aviod that fly. However fish dont spend their whole lives eating crankbaits and spinner baits and buzzers ets. This becomes very obvious in small invironments like ponds. In a lake there are so many fish and they are continously reproducing that the fact that they are learning to aviod certain baits might only affect your fishing by a bite or 2 a day. However using an ultra realistic or new or different bait could result in extra and possibly bigger bites

Bassaholic84 reply :

I believe Large bass do get conditioned to lures. Dotti that 25lb bass the guy in CA foul hooked she was only caught 3 times in like 2 years. If they didnt get conditioned i think she would have been cuaght more then 3 times. I think this is really only for the larger bass as if they didnt have the smarts that the others dont they wouldnt get that big. I mean a bass to reach 25 lbs has got to no when to say no to a lure

Mattlures reply :

Dottie was caught 3 times in 5 or 6 years and never because she ate a lure. She was only caught while spawning. She was way to smart to eat a lure. There are many big fish out here that we see but cant catch. They are known fish. they have learned to aviod us and ignore our offerings

Catt reply :

I'm saying a chicken can learn to play a piano does that make them smart?

If bass could learn lures to the point where they refused to strike them, then it would make perfect sense that sooner or latter they would never hit a lure again period?

This is the next part of the learning process isn't it?

But yet this never happens why?

Animals in captivity can be trained to do many things; Dr. Jones's use of captive bass meant he controlled all aspects of their conditioning leaving the bass little freedom. The bass had no choice between live bait or fake lures, no cover to hide in, no impact from weather conditions, just a choice of the lures offered.

That my friends are not natural responses but forced responses

paul. reply :

nearly 19 years ago, after my wife and i were married, i discovered our landlord had a pond behind his house. i asked him if i could stock it and he readily agreed. so i put a bunch of bluegill in there along with some bass. every once in a while, i would go back there to check on their progress. one of the bass i put in there just seemed naturally curious. he would swim right up to me every time i came to the pond. so i decided to see what bass could "learn". i started trying to feed this fish. at first the fish was very cautious. every once in a while, i would throw worms out to it when i had some left over from a bluegill or catfish outing. at first it was very cautious. it would look at the worm wiggling on the bottom, then at me. back and forth like that for quite a while. it was almost like, "man, this sure does seem weird, but that worm looks really good." eventually it couldn't resist and went over and sucked up the worm. the next time it ate the worm more readily, having had a positive experience the first time. the next time, even more so. and so it went. it was quite obvious that this fish quickly learned to "trust" me and associated my presence with a positive feeding experience. of course the fish quickly became a "pet" and before long it would be right there waiting on me in our usual spot when i came to the pond. within a a few weeks, the fish would take a worm right out of my hand. eventually i could even get it to come up out of the water and get a worm, bluegill, or whatever i had in my hand. of course living the "easy life" quickly made this fish the fattest, healthiest one in the pond.

one day i decided to catch my "pet" just to see how big it had gotten. of course it was like taking candy from a baby, and i even felt a little guilty doing it. i admired how this fish had grown for a few minutes and then put her back.

after that she was a totally different fish. her "attitude" was extremely different towards me and it was quite obvious from her body language. she would not eat out of my hand anymore. eventually i could get her to eat the worms i would throw in to her, but it was like starting all over from square one. just as the fish had learned to "trust" me, it learned to "distrust" me and associate my presence with danger. this was the key difference though, and don't miss this point. it took weeks for this fish to eat out of my hand, i.e. to "learn" through positive experience. but it only took one incident to "learn" through a negative experience and abandon this behavior.

i could give other examples, both my own and other folks. i've seen catfish gobble up pieces of hot dog or liver thrown out to them but completely ignore the pieces thrown out attached to a hook and line, and even completely vacate the area as soon as a hook and line enters the water, even though it's attached to the same food they were just gorging themselves on.

it's pretty obvious to me from observing fish behavior over time in one of the clear lakes i fish that there even seems to be distinct "personality types" among a given population of fish. some aggressive, some cautious, some curious, some smarter, some dumber.

like matt said originally, they are much "smarter" than we realize sometimes. don't try to tell me they can't learn.

fourbizz reply :

Quote

But yet this never happens why?

You answered your own question

Quote
Dr. Jones's use of captive bass meant he controlled all aspects of their conditioning leaving the bass little freedom

In an environment as large as even a small pond, you could never pressure every single fish hard enough to make them completely stop striking.

But you most certainly CAN turn them off to certain lures to a degree that you are less likely to get bit than you were the first time they saw it.

You ever shot a turkey as soon as they come down from their roost? Bet you the rest of the flock won't pick that spot to land tomorrow.

fathom reply :

once caught the same 8# bass (markings) off the same point on the same lake on the same bait (frog subwart) 3 straight saturdays in a row.

bass are kinda like people.

some got the smarts.

some don't.

roadwarrior reply :

I think most of mine are the dumb ones, but the others ain't too smart!

Maybe the California brontosaurus are different, but for the

rest of the planet, if it swims it eats. To catch the World Record,

maybe all of the planets have to be in alignment, but a double

digit or the biggest fish in your water only requires a bait in front

of its nose!

In some Kali lakes they may load-in enough stockers that the fat girls

may, literally, never move. Catching those fish would be a challenge.

They seem closely related to aquarium fish. Wild bass are easier to

fool.

8-)

fourbizz reply :

Quote
I think most of mine are the dumb ones, but the others ain't too smart!
Maybe the California brontosaurus are different, but for the

rest of the planet, if it swims it eats. To catch the World Record,

maybe all of the planets have to be in alignment, but a double

digit or the biggest fish in your water only requires a bait in front

of its nose!

In some Kali lakes they may load-in enough stockers that the fat girls

may, literally, never move. Catching those fish would be a challenge.

They seem closely related to aquarium fish. Wild bass are easier to

fool.

8-)

<------

"Scratches head and ponders: Do I really want to get banned tonight?"

Muddy reply :

I bet certain "age group" bass learn to avoid a lot of baits. The reason all the fish in a large body of water do not learn all of them is for one they can't teach each other, the body of water is so large that an individual bass may not have had contact enough with a lure to learn it and finally when you start catching a lot of 2 to 4 lb bass on a lure that went cold for a while I bet it's just the next age group coming up and they haven't learned the bait like their older cousins

Every lake in the US is not as Big as Toledo, or Fork and a lot of lakes do not have shad in the north and a lot of the lakes I fish ( 1000 acres or less) have bass showing way different behaviors than you big /warm lake guys see in those fish down there.

fourbizz reply :

Yep our big dumb aquarium fish...

I have seen many things the last few years with big baits that make me believe as fiercely as I do, that these fish learn, and have some degree of intelligence.

Many times, I have had days where just having a size one stinger hook rigged on a bait would prevent it from getting bit. Change to just a jig hook and start getting bit. Has this ever happened on the delta? Hell no, because that is a giant piece of water, that is not clear, and has stupid fish.

Lets look at lake Dixon, I know somebody in this thread fishes there and maybe he could confirm or deny what I'm saying. That lake is 76 surface acres at full pool. The visibility is 20+ feet. So during the spawn, you could effectively eliminate at least 1/2 of its acreage because it is too deep to hold bed fish. So that leaves us with 38 acres of fishable depth, assume that at least a third of that is inhospitable to bedding fish, and you are down to 25 acres of productive water. Now put the worlds best trophy sight fishermen on their head, to the tune of 10-20 guys a day. Yeah, one acre per fisherman. There should be a 18+ caught every day right? No, because the conditions presented these fish have made them very aware at our attempts at subterfuge.

You might not see these effects on a 160,000 acre reservoir, with nowhere near that kind of pressure per acre. But I KNOW that it exists here.

Mattlures reply :

Roadwarrior I can see how some think that the fish are dumb. They are wrong but I do undertand it. On big bodies of water there are so many fish, new fish all the time plus millions of lure variations that it might not make any difference. Plus some fish are dumb and we dont know how long they remember. But if you think all you have to do is find a big fish to catch them I completly disagree. I bet every time you or I or Bizz goes out, our baits, have been within feeding range of a big bass. I also bet we dont catch one everytime. Its just not that simple. Older bass with more learning experiances make fewer mistakes then youg dumb bass. Just like every single animal in nature.

Fourbizz is 100% correct Dixon can be a zoo. At any given time there are 1-5 world class sight fisherman on the lake just cruising the shore. The lake tapers realy fast. Its a gamble when you leave the dock. After about 1/2 hour you going over water that has already been looked at. I would also like to point out, that rarley are any big fish caught out of there that arent on beds. they are too darn smart.

And no the bass dont sit around eating trout. trout are only stocked for about 4-5 months. and the bass eat the same forrage as any other bass like gills, shad, dads, and all other baby fish. The reason they are so smart is the water is clear and the fish are super preasured plus the big ones are almost always released. This makes them harder to catch. It not that "our" fish are smarter. Its that they are in an inviorenment where they are forced to lean faster. These fish get fished for and have lines in front of them every single day. On a big lake bass may go a while before they see a bait especialy if they live in areas that dont get fished much.

George Welcome reply :

Ah, opinions, we all have them. Some fishermen believe in the brain of the bass, and others think they have none. Perhaps some fishing down time, and time spent studying text books would benefit some. Your personal experience makes it a rule for yourself, but it doesn't make it a rule.

Dr. Keith Jones has one objective and one objective only. As he does have a good sized brain, and can quickly learn, he had the ability to learn that Berkley writes his paycheck.

Catt reply :

Think about what y'all are saying

If bass learned not to hit lures we would soon run out of catchable bass yet this has not happened WHY?

Y'all give some neat answers but no one has answered why we still catch bass?

fourbizz, you mentioned Lake Nixon under the assumption of bass learning then no bass should ever be caught out of that lake again because the bass are too smart.

Everyone bring up the size of Toledo Bend but no one bring up the fact than on any given day there are 25 times the number of anglers on the bend than any Cali or Northern lake. There are times when there will be numerous major tournaments on this lake in the same weekend with thousands of anglers from all skill levels, from pure armatures to highly successful Semi-Pros & Pros.

So y'all tell me why bass catching has not stopped due to over population of highly intelligent bass?

Mattlures reply :

Catt first off your up to late!

But Ok I have answerd your question already but I will do it again.

Ok fist bass dont live that long and they dont teach other bass. They only learn from experiances. Now figure that a lot of bass die and are kept when caught. Each year a new crop of inexperianced bass are born. They srtart the cycle all over again. So each year the older class numbers go down while the lower class go up. The older a bass gets the more times its been caught and the more it has learned to not eat lures. It makes fewer mistakes then the younger dumb bass that are replenished each year. What I am trying to tell you is the older a bass gets the smarter it becomes but there are certainly less older smart bass then young stupid ones. The longest a bass can live is probaly 18 years but the average lifespan of bass that make it to catchable size is probably only 8 years. Most just dont live long enough to become completly uncatchable. They bass with the most experiance would be the smartest or weariest. So if it is highly pressured on a small lake it sees more human contact. Is sees more lures and it sees other bass getting caught they learn faster. Now a bass on a huge lake wouldnt see the same amount of human contact simple beecasue there is less of it per acre. OK now pay attention because here is your answer.

For a fish to become completly uncatchable it would have had to experiance evey single lure and every technique in its short lifetime and it would have to remeber them all. That is impossible. That is why there are no super mega uncatchable bass. However there are some fish that are almost uncatchable. Dottie is a good example. That fish was firt caught by Mike Long at 21 lbs in 2001. That fish lived in that little tiny 70 acre lake for 8 years after Mike caught and released it. Nobody was ever able to cath that fish except when it was on a bed. That lake was beaten to death by guys hoping to cath that fish throwing every single big fish bait known to man and regular baits to. The fish was too smart. Nobody could cath it. It had grow up in an invioronment where it had seen everthing. It had learned to not get caught. Verry few fish get that old and see that much pressure to become that smart. There is your answer.

Also you have to consider that some lures would be easier to learn then others. For instace. You may have eaten 500 burgers in your life. You go to MC donnalds and eat a burger and get sick. would you stop eating burgers? No. But if you started getting sick every other time you ate one from any place you would learn that something is wrong.

Now if a bass has been eating trout its whole life and then it eats a Hudd and gets caught, it might not make the connection because the bait is so realistc. But if it happens enough it will learn that Hudd is not a real trout. It will see hooks and line and it will be more cautuos. Everybody who swimbaits out here has seen a big bass come up and inspet a swimbait. i dont mean follow I mean get within inches of it and then turn away. It realized that something wasnt right with that bait.

Ok now take a spinner bait or crank bait or any othe non realistic bait. A bass has obviously never had a possative experiance eating one. so It eats it as a reaction or out of curiosity. But It is going to learn one of thos baits alot faster. Kind of like a human eating a lemmon. You bite into one and its horribly sour. are you going to do that again? No.

See ultra realistic baits would be much harder to learn if that bass thinks its eating the real prey it is immitating. Plus you have other verry natural baits like worms and other simple type baits. They dont have any "loud" traits so it would be easier to fool the fish with them over again.

Plus the one thing that was mentioned in the article was that we dont know how long a fish can remember things. I am sure they forget some things but they probaly dont forget that lemmon.

Muddy reply :

George thanks for bringing up the Berkley thing, I was hoping a more knowledgeable guy would. I did not eve3n go into depth reading his stuff when i found out he worked for Berkley. a little bit too Sham-wowness for me!

Catt, man you are stubborn! Unlike me Mr.Open Mindedness 8-)

Fishing Pressure; relation to the size of Toledo bend;

Toledo Bend: 205000 acre lake with over 1200 miles of Shoreline

Mauch Chunk: 336 acres, the Nature walk around the Lake 3.2 miles

On a week in July ( 3rd week of July) with the campground full, we took note of about how many boats were on the Lake and how many fished the Shores we came up with 63 people so lets just say that's 100 people a day per 336 acres :that works out to about 0.3 angler per acre, so lets go with your number 25 times more anglers on the Bend than on a Cali(in this case the Chunk) on any given day. 25 times 100 is 2500 right so lets divide the 2500 anglers by those 205 000 acres, the answer +.0122 per that is a huge, very huge difference in pressure that the fish have on them.

I would also guess, there may be a few more fish /acre in TB than in Mauch Chunk.

You can not fish primarily one kind of water, in one type of climate and generalize ALL OF BASS BEHVIOR as being the same allover. There are generalizations that are true, I learned them from you , so you should know.

I also know that LMB in 36 degree water, that will soon freeze over act a lot different ie slower than fish in water that never goes lower than 45".

I also know that on a lot of smaller lakes and ponds in NY and PA if I were to completely memorize all the great stuff you and Mat and Randall have put up on the relationship between shad movement and bass location that I may not even catch a single bass, because there are no shad in those lakes

What I can and have done is read those informative pieces and try to put that bass/prey relationship on what is in the bodies of water I fish

The other thing that has not been discussed here yet is INSTINCT, I watched guys fish the same bed over and over again , literally for hours on Lake Fork and eventually the fear the bass had for the fisherman/lure was over-ridden by the instinct to get what ever was being thrown into that nest out. I don't have 10 hours of my life to sit on one bass, no matter how big to catch it. Many do, and their results speak for themselves. So INSTINT plays a role here, and I think that exploiting that instinct is where the generalizations that work come from

However to not pay attention to the locality and type lake/impingement/pond or river you are fishing and try to take what is good on a 2005,000 acre lake in the deep South and apply to to a 336 lake up North, and not try to factor in those differences is hurting your fishing more than helping it.

George Welcome reply :

"Also you have to consider that some lures would be easier to learn then others. For instace. You may have eaten 500 burgers in your life. You go to MC donnalds and eat a burger and get sick. would you stop eating burgers? No. But if you started getting sick every other time you ate one from any place you would learn that something is wrong."

The serious flaw in most of the responses on this subject. This animal is not a human being. Also, it is not a trout, catfish, or some other species of fish. This animal is a bass.

However, these responses demonstrate what keeps bass fishing interesting. This species of fish is an enigma that lives by no rules, and two that are side by side might act quite differently with a given set of circumstances. Most fish have a given set of rules that it will respond to, but not this guy. Such fun!

Catt reply :

So if this theory was correct any bass that has been caught once on a particular lure would never be caught on that lure ever again in its lifetime.

So every time y'all go out y'all have to use a different lure correct?

Dude there aint that many different lures unless of course y'all are saying bass can tell the difference between a Strike King, Booyah, or Stanley spinner bait.

Amazing absolutely amazing

Mattlures reply :

George I agree with you. I know there not human and do not have the brain power that we do. I was just using that as an example to make it easier to understand. And I was trying to explain why some baits would be easier to learn then others. Of course thay cant lean as fast as we can but the whole point is they do learn.

Catt and RW I hope you guys dont get upset over this thread. Its nothing personal just our difference in opinions.

Muddy reply :

That is aslo a good point George. I fight my hed constantly to remind my slef of what Zel once said, just in passing while fishing with him. He said" no thats how you think, the fish arent that complicated" I do not know if he realised how important that was for me when he said it.

I really do not think that one bass can teach another bass to stay away from a lure. It was called to my attention by my friend Dan, a great musky/smallie guy who fishes the Susquehana theat when fishing Smallies , when one gets hooked or spooked THEIR ACTIONS, darting around or retrieving a hooked smallie through a group of other smallis can and will spook the other fish and turn off a hot bite. That it is better to let that spot rest for a while and come back to it

I have seen the same thing in the clear waters of the Chunk; spook a LMB in a group and the group of fish in a small area swim and act differently for a while. It happens over and over again

Trick sticks were hot for 2 years, now they are just a ggo dbait. I have seen the same thing happen with Jelly Worms, then all of a sudden i start getting a hot bite on Jelly worms again, and I suspect the same with the trick sticks will happen

The turned on bite was mostly with smaller ( one to 2 lb) fish. I suspect, but I am not sure that is another age class of bass growing up and they have not seen the trick stick a 1000 times. I am not even sure having seen a bait a 1000 times affects a bass for the rest of its life. Once again that would be applying human thought abilities to a fish. BUT I WILL CONTINUE TAKING NOTE IN MY LOG TO FOGURE IT OUT! That is what keeps me coming back 8-)

Muddy reply :

Quote
So if this theory was correct any bass that has been caught once on a particular lure would never be caught on that lure ever again in its lifetime.
So every time y'all go out y'all have to use a different lure correct?

Dude there aint that many different lures unless of course y'all are saying bass can tell the difference between a Strike King, Booyah, or Stanley spinner bait.

Amazing absolutely amazing

Hey Mook, don't over generalize what I am saying. I am saying there is strong evidence that a small body of water , with high pressure and I can tell you by the amount of people throwing lets say Trick Stick type baits, can ( as in maybe) be the cause of that lure not being as effective, because the bass learn it is not food

I have fished with Speedbead,Zel and Sharbite on the Chunk They can all tell you I can throw a trick stick and catch bass, almost at will on certain spots on that lake. But then if I switch up to a Shad Rap( 2004 to 2005 the hottest lure on the Chunk) or a jig head/plastic trailer once I find them and the fish get more aggressive in bitting those lures. What that means I can't say for sure

There are 3 ponds I fish heavy and 3 to 4 lbrs for me are common there. which is respectable for these small Northern Ponds. I have seen people on those same spots throwing Spinner baits and Rapalas, which is the local prefrence I go to that same spot when they leave and i throw ( I aint giving up that info) a different bait and i am on fish and they left empty handed so to speak.

My success there was by exploiting my notes and not throwing what many others do,.

Muddy reply :

Hey by the way; I feel a bit insecure and I don't want Catt,George and Matt to think I feel like I know it all now. I have learned so much from you guys and I want to take part in a discussion like this to see how I am doing with my learning I keep logs and want to see how I am doing . I feel like i should still be only listening but I want to know how my thinking is going with all this

Dominick

Catt reply :

Another thing y'all are not considering is once a bass has been caught and has went through the learning process of not hitting that lure again it is now removed from the amount of available bass to be caught leaving only the bass which have not been caught on that lure available to be caught. The amount of available bass would continually decrease to the point of none available.

Muddy the number of anglers on Toledo Bend would in all actuality be close to impossible to estimate but I have personally witnessed weekends with numerous tournaments being held at the same time where just the number of registered anglers exceeded 7,000.

Does fishing pressure affect the number of bass catchable bass? Absolutely ask any one who fishes Toledo Bend and they will tell you fishing is better during the week than on weekends.

Muddy reply :

I was just using the figure you put up. Stop check/raising this is not poker, it's fishing

BTW The fishing pressure ideas from the Chunk. I have a Friend, Mr.Sam he's ancient and one of the best plug fisherman I know. He pointed out , when talking about the amount of fishermen on the Chunk on a given day that THEY ARE ALL NOT FISHING FOR BASS, his take on a busy day is the guys pan fishing and bass fishing are the pressure on a busy day the walleye mooks are fishing different parts of the lake using different lures. He may have something there.

Agree with your weekday/weekend theory .

warmer reply :

2 stories;

- a friend snapped off on a fish on 16ft brush, 2 casts later i caught the fish on the same worm. it had his line hanging out of its mouth.

- we had a fish in our pond we called one eyed willie, because it had one eye and 2 hooks sticking out of the back of its throat. i saw the fish no less than 3 times.

even so, to my way of thinking some of them learn to greater and lesser degrees, and it is likely that the bigger ones learn better, which is why they got so big.

why do i think so...

- fresh new baits produce surprising results... for a short time.

- fishing pressure effects catch rates.

Muddy reply :

Quote
2 stories;
- a friend snapped off on a fish on 16ft brush, 2 casts later i caught the fish on the same worm. it had his line hanging out of its mouth.

- we had a fish in our pond we called one eyed willie, because it had one eye and 2 hooks sticking out of the back of its throat. i saw the fish no less than 3 times.

even so, to my way of thinking some of them learn to greater and lesser degrees, and it is likely that the bigger ones learn better, which is why they got so big.

why do i think so...

- fresh new baits produce surprising results... for a short time.

- fishing pressure effects catch rates.

Hey Check this out; Me and Ron were fishing the same dock. He threw the same Stick I was to the left corner and I threw to the right. He hooked up almost immediately and a faulty knot cost him the fish, within seconds I hook up and when I reel it in there is the same fish with Rons stick still stuck in it's lip!

He was all of 13 inches

Low_Budget_Hooker reply :

A good read but I'm still with Catt on this one. They remember somewhat, but they don't really retain it.

I WILL say however that the other side has a point that can not be tested yet.

animals adapt over time and we have only been throwing lures at them for 100 yrs or so. We don't rightly know if Bass might be uncatchable in 1000 yrs. If there is retention, it is minimal and will not affect me in this lifetime.

Muddy reply :

Quote
A good read but I'm still with Catt on this one. They remember somewhat, but they don't really retain it.
I WILL say however that the other side has a point that can not be tested yet.

animals adapt over time and we have only been throwing lures at them for 100 yrs or so. We don't rightly know if Bass might be uncatchable in 1000 yrs. If there is retention, it is minimal and will not affect me in this lifetime.

Hey Russ: I think the observations lead to 3 questions

1. How does the intensity of fishing pressure with a specific lure effect catch rates?

2. How long is this "fear" retained

3. If the pressure with that specific lure goes away, how long will it take them to "forget"?

I use the quotes because remembering and forgetting are human traits and I do not know if that accurately describes how or if fish think at all

Dominick

Matt Fly reply :

A bass has to eat to survive. Thats instinct.

If bass was to retain negative events, don't you think bass would learn to not spawn so shallow every year?

Enviromental factors apply to lakes of size, clarity, bass populations, food sources and types of cover.

It is said that only 10% of Lake Forks bass see a lure in a years time. Add in the newly spawned and stockings every year. To many fish to be schooled in my opinion on this 27000 acre lake with lay downs, matted hydrilla, lily pads, forests, and over 200 feeder creeks feeding in lined with the same types of cover.

Now you look at Dixon, different lake, no active bass stocking program, less bass per acre compared to Fork. 76 acres that is deep and crystal clear.

Two different scenerios.

Lake Fayetteville is a power plant lake in Texas, 2400 acres. I have had numerous 30 fish days with grape white tailed worms each trip, to see 3-5 old hook sores in the majority of bass mouths. This lake is very stained.

What I do know about being on a school of bass, after catching 3-4 bass off of piles with a crank, they turned off, switching to plastic started pulling them off the pile again.

Any of you guys who fished for crappie have seen the samething. Catch a number of crappie on redhead white grub and they may turn off, change it up some and go back to catching.

Come back the next day, same baits work.

You shoot at a deer in a wheat field or around a feeder, they don't stop eating wheat or corn, they just don't feed in the day light or in the same part of the field, or they go to a differnt feeder. they change up their habits.

Its instinct for all of us to eat to survive. We condition ourselves, less salt, less fast foods, more veggies, but we still eat.

So do bass. Don't make us smarter, just selective.

Randall reply :

The largest bass I have caught took me three years to catch after knowing the exact spots it used to feed, how it feeds, where it spawns etc. Three times in three years I tried to catch it off a bed but never could get a boat close without the fish knowing I was there. I even tried to get behind a tree and catch it from the bank after crawling across the ground and that didn't work. Then one day with cloud cover, and a 40+ mph wind I ended up catching it. No doubt in my mind that fish learned not to hit baits and to be more careful when a boat was around. In my mind it took big waves and low light to keep me from being seen or heard and for my bait to be realistic as possible to catch that fish cause that fish had learned from it's experience. I think I would have caught it long before if it hadn't been educated from experience.

dr.crow reply :

Bass are individuals and an attempt to generalize behavior over the entire population will lead to false conclusions. Take by way of analogy, DWIs (or DUI). Some people, if they are dumb enough in the first place to drink and drive, then may get a DWI, and may learn from the experience and never do it again. Others are repeat offenders and keep on doing it, seemingly never learning from the experience. And typically, the older one gets, the wiser they get, and even if the drank and drove when they were younger, wise up and don't do it when they are older. Overall, one must judge that giving DWIs works for the most part and cuts down on drunk drivers, and so overall, one must judge that fish generally do get accustomed to lures and we must factor this into our thinking, to some degree.

The analogy is that bass do become conditioned to lures, as the aquarium experiments show. Some may learn more quickly than others. The younger bass may require longer to get the idea - how many times have you caught 1-2 lb fish that still had signs of being hooked recently? The older bass - they've been around and have likely learned the signs of danger, else they wouldn't be so old.

Disregarding the aquarium experiment altogether because it isn't all inclusive ignores what we can learn from it, and that is that bass do get conditioned to lures and may not bite.

What about the other variables mentioned? Just like we always have new teenagers learning to drive and deciding to drink and drive, so do we have new bass in the fishery that may have never encountered a lure and are more prone to strike.

If you want to maximize your odds and increase the percentage of bass your lure will appeal to means a few things: turning off electronics when you don't need them, very careful use of the trolling motor, using lures which fish may not have seen before, and making those lures look as realistic as possible. In the end, it is all about the odds, and the realization that every fish is a little different in some way.

paul. reply :

are we so arrogant as to think that we have caught the biggest bass that swims in the waters that we fish? truth be told, there are probably several fish that swim in the lakes that we frequent that are bigger than anything we have previously caught there. perhaps even bigger than anything we have previously seen or caught at all. in other words there is a "grade" of fish out there that is a cut above anything we have been able to muster. and try as we might, we cannot catch even one of these scaly behemoths. there are only two possible explanations for this. either (a) fish are completely stupid with no ability to learn whatsoever and against all odds we have been such poor fisherman that we have consistently fished the wrong baits in the wrong locations at the wrong times for years on end and have never put a bait in front of THE fish. after all, if we had, we would have surely caught it or at least hooked it since bass are so ridiculously stupid. or ( maybe, just maybe, at least once in our lives, out of persistence and dumb luck if nothing else, we have been at the right place at the right time with the right presentation and THE fish was smart enough to look at it and swim away.

it's one or the other y'all. logic dictates that. i can sleep easier at night believing choice "b".

George Welcome reply :

"it's one or the other y'all. logic dictates that. i can sleep easier at night believing choice "b"."

Interesting word choice. I wonder how many animals on earth have this attribute? Perhaps, there is some sort of scientific response to that question that in some way brings enlightment to all of this? Wouldn't you agree that in order for an animal to learn, logical thought processes must be attributes they possess?

Sam reply :

This is what I read about goldfish:

Myth: Goldfish only have a memory span of a few seconds.

Fact: A recent study from Plymouth University in which goldfish were forced to press a lever for food showed that they not only have memory spans of up to three months, but they also have built-in biological clocks that allow them to line up for food each day just before feeding time.

Conclusion" Fish are smarter than we think.

warmer reply :

fish are food not friends.

Catt reply :

Lake whatever is exactly 70 acres with identical depth, water clarity, cover, structure, and forage conditions; the population of lake whatever is X. This lake is open for the first time to the public, now pay close attention to the proposed bass learning theory.

Day one an equal percentage of anglers are using the following

Top water baits

Spinner baits

Crank baits

Jig-N-Craws

Plastics

Each group of anglers would catch a percentage of the population rendering those bass unavailable to be caught on day two by the same bait.

Day two the same group of anglers fish lake whatever again catching a percentage of the population rending those bass unavailable to be caught on day three.

If this were to continue on a daily basis would it not be fact than there would come a point and time where the bass in lake whatever would no longer hit any lure offered?

Or would the bass evolve to the point where they couldn't distinguish between a Strike King and a Booyah spinner bait opening up another whole group of baits for the angler.

fourbizz reply :

Quote
If this were to continue on a daily basis would it not be fact than there would come a point and time where the bass in lake whatever would no longer hit any lure offered?

No. You couldnt pressure them hard enough to completely stop eating before a new year class was brought into it. Nice try.

Wayne P. reply :

Bass seem to avoid some of the noisy, flashy, hard baits after being exposed to them a lot. They seen to not remember being caught with soft plastics.

George Welcome reply :

In any bass fishing tournament some always come in with more bass and bigger bass than most of the other participants, and someone always wins. Perhaps the winner has learned how to find the dumb bass. Perhaps there is some cover or structure that is more likely to hold dumb bass than others. :

I've yet to see an autopsy on a bass that didn't yield a stick, a stone, a shell, or some other inanimate object in their stomach. Perhaps there are real scientific papers out there that address how bass live, hunt, and eat. Do bass actually select what they eat by size, shape and color through some learing process.

Perhaps our southern bass are truly cast into the lot of dumb bass, as we continue having days of huge numbers, and huge bass caught on a lake that is highly pressured, quite small compared to many, and one that everyone is using the same baits day after day.

I am short on experience chasing this critter, only 50 years now, but to me bass are dumb as rocks.

Catt reply :

Quote

Quote
If this were to continue on a daily basis would it not be fact than there would come a point and time where the bass in lake whatever would no longer hit any lure offered?

No. You couldnt pressure them hard enough to completely stop eating before a new year class was brought into it. Nice try.

So you are saying the only bass y'all catch in California lakes this years fry?

fourbizz reply :

Quote

Quote

Quote
If this were to continue on a daily basis would it not be fact than there would come a point and time where the bass in lake whatever would no longer hit any lure offered?

No. You couldnt pressure them hard enough to completely stop eating before a new year class was brought into it. Nice try.

So you are saying the only bass y'all catch in California lakes this years fry?

Im starting to wonder if YOU are capable of learning, how to read for example.

Gatorbassman reply :

OK Y'all. >

Catt reply :

I have noticed that in each scenario given about a difficult to catch bass it was while the bass were on the nest.

Sam my wife's goldfish have learned that she feeds them at the same time every day so they learned there is no need to forage for food.

Conclusion: they are smart enough to sit and wait to be feed

Catt reply :

How can you ignore the facts when placed in front of you, if this learning process was true the number of catchable bass in a given lake would dramatically drop to a near nil level would it not?

fourbizz reply :

NO, because, AS I HAVE SAID 3 OR 4 TIMES outside of anything larger than a koi pond, a human could NEVER apply enough lures and presentations, often enough, to each fish, to make them completely stop hitting lures before new year classes were brought in. My argument has been that the smaller, clearer, and more pressured the more difficult fish are to catch. I do not, for the life of me, understand how anyone could argue this point, except having never fished for anything other than northern strain fish in gigantic bodies of water. Now stop mis-quoting me and intentionally misconstruing the words that I type. I think that there are a few people that have a much higher interest in winning this debate than they do in being right. I am out the door to work and when i get back I am not checking back in on these now worthless threads.

tyrius. reply :

I think the "bass are dumb" side and the "bass are smart" side are talking past each other.

Bass are dumb in that they will hit lures that bear no resemblence to natural prey. Bass are dumb in that they will potentially hit that same lure multiple times.

Bass are smart in that given enough (subjective) negative influences they will learn to cease the behavior that is providing the negative influence.

Both crowds are technically correct. It seems to me though that one side is reading much more into what the other side is saying.

Now, to my opinion, one can not attribute the same level of "intelligence" to each bass in the lake. One bass may be caught by a spinnerbait once and never strike one again. Another bass may strike one once a week. The first bass' "memory" is "better" while the second one fails to "remember" the negative aspects of the spinnerbait. So, given a lake with bass of varying degrees of intelligence as well as new year classes (inexperienced bass) a specific lure will continue to produce fish. This is why angler's continue to have success on pressured waters.

A new lure will likely enjoy a short time period of great success and then tapering off into it's "normal" range. The same is true for bodies of water that receive zero fishing pressure. When anglers first gain access to that water the fishing will be great but then when sufficient pressure is applied the results will taper off into a more "normal" success pattern. This is evidence that at least some of the bass have been conditioned to either correlate human activity with danger or specific lures with danger.

This learned behavior seems to apply more to lures that a) do not resemble typical forage and are not retrieved at a high rate of speed. The high rate of retrieval will at times override the bass' normal reluctance to commit to that specific lure. They will see/hear/feel it coming and not have time to inspect it before it is gone.

paul. reply :

Quote
Wouldn't you agree that in order for an animal to learn, logical thought processes must be attributes they possess?

this is just my opinion but i don't think that it's logic or reasoning george, at least not with fish. with other animals, perhaps it could be logic to some degree. i don't know what to call it with fish. i just think it's there. we use words like "think" and "learn" and "smart" and "stupid" when we know these words really don't apply to fish because supposedly their brain is not biologically capable of intelligence in the sense we think of intelligence. of course our study of the fish brain is based completely on our own human analysis and conclusions. there is really no way to completely qualify or quantify what a bass can actually "think" because animal "thought" is an abstract variable that we could never fully measure without being able to "read their mind" or communicate with them in some way.

perhaps it's finely tuned instinct that allows a fish to turn away from a bait. perhaps it's a different "sense" that fish and other animals have and develop over time as they grow, something that we as humans do not possess or possess to such a small degree we cannot understand it. we have all seen footage of prey animals in africa. one minute they calmly allow predatory animals to walk among them or alarmingly close within easy striking distance somehow knowing that the predator is not "on the hunt". yet they somehow sense when they might be on the menu and their behavior becomes totally different. i have seen this same behavior, as have many of you i'm sure, with bass and a school of bluegill. how do they "know"? i haven't got a clue. and i certainly don't want to turn this into a religious discussion or take this great topic into another realm, but perhaps there is another force at work here that we fail to acknowledge.

we have so much blind, arrogant faith in our own human "knowledge" and "understanding". yet it's obvious that we as humans don't have all the answers to this or many of life's other mysteries. supposedly, it is aerodynamically impossible for a bumblebee to fly, yet they do.

i don't know what it is with bass, i just believe it's there, at least sometimes. but after all, i'm only human and i could be wrong.

tyrius. reply :

Quote
How can you ignore the facts when placed in front of you, if this learning process was true the number of catchable bass in a given lake would dramatically drop to a near nil level would it not?

No, because no one is saying that all bass retain all lures for the remainder of their lives. This is where I think that you are applying this theory much more strenuously than anyone else is.

tyrius. reply :

Quote
Wouldn't you agree that in order for an animal to learn, logical thought processes must be attributes they possess?

No. Animals typically learn through associative behaviours. Get a hook rammed through their mouth and pulled from the water provides a negative association to whatever they were doing prior to being hooked. They require no logic for this, simply conditioning.

It's the same with any other animal. Dogs are conditioned to pee outside, sit, do tricks, not bark, etc all through positive and negative associations. If a largemouth bass can be conditioned to certain behaviours in captivity then it can be conditioned to those same behaviours in the wild. It is just much more difficult to provide the same level of conditioning.

Pitchinkid reply :

Is it not possible that diffrent retrieves or presentation all together(I.E 4" finesse worm on drop shot, 4"worm on jighead,4" worm on mojo rig) are catching the same fish. Sure its the same bait but its action is diffrent. I dont think know 2 fisherman fish a bait excatlley the same.I think this can be applied to all baits, cranks, jigs, spinners, etc.

paul. reply :

Quote
I have noticed that in each scenario given about a difficult to catch bass it was while the bass were on the nest.

no it wasn't.

Catt reply :

Quote

Quote
Wouldn't you agree that in order for an animal to learn, logical thought processes must be attributes they possess?

this is just my opinion but i don't think that it's logic or reasoning george, at least not with fish. with other animals, perhaps it could be logic to some degree. i don't know what to call it with fish. i just think it's there. we use words like "think" and "learn" and "smart" and "stupid" when we know these words really don't apply to fish because supposedly their brain is not biologically capable of intelligence in the sense we think of intelligence. of course our study of the fish brain is based completely on our own human analysis and conclusions. there is really no way to completely qualify or quantify what a bass can actually "think" because animal "thought" is an abstract variable that we could never fully measure without being able to "read their mind" or communicate with them in some way.

perhaps it's finely tuned instinct that allows a fish to turn away from a bait. perhaps it's a different "sense" that fish and other animals have and develop over time as they grow, something that we as humans do not possess or possess to such a small degree we cannot understand it. we have all seen footage of prey animals in africa. one minute they calmly allow predatory animals to walk among them or alarmingly close within easy striking distance somehow knowing that the predator is not "on the hunt". yet they somehow sense when they might be on the menu and their behavior becomes totally different. i have seen this same behavior, as have many of you i'm sure, with bass and a school of bluegill. how do they "know"? i haven't got a clue. and i certainly don't want to turn this into a religious discussion or take this great topic into another realm, but perhaps there is another force at work here that we fail to acknowledge.

we have so much blind, arrogant faith in our own human "knowledge" and "understanding". yet it's obvious that we as humans don't have all the answers to this or many of life's other mysteries. supposedly, it is aerodynamically impossible for a bumblebee to fly, yet they do.

i don't know what it is with bass, i just believe it's there, at least sometimes. but after all, i'm only human and i could be wrong.

Now you have gotten to what I think on this subject

George Welcome reply :

Gotta love it: let's not get overwrought with emotions here.

Catt reply :

Quote
NO, because, AS I HAVE SAID 3 OR 4 TIMES outside of anything larger than a koi pond, a human could NEVER apply enough lures and presentations, often enough, to each fish, to make them completely stop hitting lures before new year classes were brought in. My argument has been that the smaller, clearer, and more pressured the more difficult fish are to catch. I do not, for the life of me, understand how anyone could argue this point, except having never fished for anything other than northern strain fish in gigantic bodies of water. Now stop mis-quoting me and intentionally misconstruing the words that I type. I think that there are a few people that have a much higher interest in winning this debate than they do in being right. I am out the door to work and when i get back I am not checking back in on these now worthless threads.

So in other words when someone disagrees with your thought process they are simply trying to win a debate and their treads are worthless?

paul. reply :

glad to hear that at least to some degree we agree tommy. even where we disagree, i still respect your opinion. i have learned a lot from you and your posts always cause me to think and re-think. and i think you are a fine basser, much better than i'll ever be. much respect.

just didn't want that to get lost in this debate.

Raul reply :

Quote
Perhaps our southern bass are truly cast into the lot of dumb bass

Well, Paul, they are redneck bass so we can 't ask miracles ( other than growing big ) out of them.

Paul Roberts reply :

Wow.

Hey all. Before you get too emotionally invested, you should know that there are a lot of people that have asked this kind of thing before.

There's some good research out there on the subject. If I had more time here I'd dig some of it up. Off the top of my head a good site would be bigindianabass.com. Check the "research" link. This should also lead to keywords and authors to search.

I'll throw in my opinion too, for what it's worth: Bass can "learn". It's been documented over and over again. How and what they learn is worth looking into.

Eddie Munster reply :

IMO I think this whole argument is subjective and relative.

"Fish are smarter than we give them credit for"

Well, I think some fish are smarter than some people give them credit for. Some people throw the same bait in the same location because they were killing them there before. They don't stop to think are the conditions the same, etc... These guys are NOT as smart as they give themselves credit for.

Some fish are dumber than some people give them credit for. Darwin does work in the fish world too I assume. The fittest survive and live long enough to become lunkers by learning. Some fish will hit the same thing over and over because those are the dumb ones of the group.

Depending upon the fishing pressure, population of fish, etc they 'learn' at different paces. Whether or not a fish is 'educated' doesn't mean you're guaranteed to catch them or get skunked. Remember there are different kinds of strikes right.

Bottom line for me is don't overthink it; if you have the time to go fishing, go fishing. Enjoy your time outside whether the fish in your lake/pond are smart or stupid.

paul. reply :

is there some way we could combine this thread and matt's so that all this good info could be in one place? :-/ at least to me, this is all very interesting.

Mottfia reply :

Yea I'm sure they can learn too. Otherwise they wouldn't survive or adapt so well all over the nation. I have to agree with Catt that if bass remembered that much then we would never catch them. I believe that bass can turn off to a lure if they see alot of it but I also believe they have a goldfish type memory that doesn't hang with them if they don

t see it for awhile. Plus like someone said earlier, THEY WILL EAT STICKS AND GRASS. lol silly bass

There are always other factors that could explain why that lure is not getting bites....maybe the fish aren't in that area

Bassn Blvd reply :

Are the fish being returned to the same lake after each day or removed?

If removed, how many ?

If removed, then the population is being reduced so naturally the number caught is going to drop which may make it more difficult to catch the same amount as day 1. Not necessarily because they are used to the bait.

Look at this scenario.

I fish a 110 acre lake/pond. This body of water is closed off from any canal, lake or other body of water. The lake is fed from a couple aquafers though.

Only 3 people have access to this lake to fish but each person can bring a guest. The lake is fished once a week from 1 to 4 anglers at a time. My best 7 hour day is just over 140 bass.

Yesterday, my brother and I went out for 2.5 hours and caught between 25-30 bass. Another guy on the lake and his buddy caught the same as us. We fished the exact amount of time.

The 4 baits I fish on this lake are :

worms

jigs

crankbaits

spook/topwater.

ALL fish are catch and release.

How long do we have before we can't catch anymore fish on the lures presented?

Mattlures reply :

Catt you continualy change waht people are posting to try and fit your argumant. You keep trying to say if a fish hit a lure once and gets caught it wont ever do it again. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE SAYING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the study in the aqurium said they fish hit the bait less each time they treid it. LESS!!!!!! meaning they did not learn instantly. GET IT???? probably not. it takes time and some animals learn faster then other. Does a dog sit the first time you teach it to? no it takes a bunch of times with treats or priase. Does a dog learn not to poop in the house the first time you scold or beat it? No usualy it takes a few times. Fish are probably no where near as smart as dogs. For a single fish to completly stop eating lures it would need a lot of negative experiances. Plus we dont know how long they remember. So on your lake X if every single angler threw the exact same bait the fish would become conditioned to it over time. Not instantly but over time. Some quicker then others. Of coure the new fish would not learn untill they were caught several times. That would also deoend on the particular bait. So that is why a single bait that works will never totaly stop working. You could never apply that much continued pressure. and even if yyou did there are always new fish. Its the older more experianced fish that make fewer mistakes. they have learned to aviod certan baits,sounds,shadows, etc.

There is way to much evidence to support the FACT that fish learn/adapt/condition/instinct etc. The only way you can even argue is to change what people are saying. I do totaly respect your opinions but you have been totaly and completly proven wrong on this issue.

I do admire your stubonness though

paul. reply :

bb i don't think you have anything to worry about. jay and matt both made a very good point that there is no way that all the bass in a system of any size could ever be completely conditioned or educated. i believe that as well. hopefully, your fish's stupidity will last until i can get down there and be your guest at this honey hole.

and a thought about the sticks, rocks, grass, etc. in bass stomachs. could it be that a certain portion of these are ingested accidentally in the process of the bass eating or attempting to eat real food? i really don't think that bass intentionally eat these things, at least most of the time. an example of what i'm talking about would be a bass sucking in a small rock off the bottom as it also sucks in a crayfish.

i did catch a bass once that seemed extremely skinny and malnourished except for an enormously large belly. i pulled no less than 8 soft plastic baits out of this fish's stomach. i figure the fish was diseased and was so sick it couldn't hunt anymore so the old, discarded soft plastics in the lake were the only things it could "catch". this fish was either stupid or just desperate to survive.

CJ reply :

I've really enjoyed reading the threads revolving around this topic. There has been great input!

Some fish are stupid, some are not. I'll bet I caught more dumb fish than smart ones.

George Welcome reply :

One of the assumptions being made in these threads is that being caught is a major negative experience for bass. Do bass know fear? Do bass experience pain from the experience? Most animals who experience fear cower once they know what caused that fear. So much to think about - so much research to do.

I'm going fishing, and the ones that bite I will enjoy, and the ones that don't, I don't care about.

_Coelacanth_ reply :

Just to add to what Matt stated about negative reinforcement

Just because a fish hits a lure one time, it isn't enough to cause a lasting negative impression to that lure. It's not just because of the individual fish or the lure though. It's simply a matter of percentages.

Take for instance a large lake that has a high population of Crappie. Bass are going to feed on the young, smaller crappie. If you present a lure that imitates a 2-3 Crappie, chances are the Bass is going to eat it. This is one of its main food sources. If it's a good enough imitation, etc., it's likely to get hit.

When this happens, it creates a negative reinforcement to that particular food source. This particular Bass might feed on other things for a while afterwards. But after eating crawfish, worms, etc. it's going to eventually see another baby Crappie swim by. Hunger will drive it to prey on this food source again and since this time, it was a real Crappie, there is no negative feedback for its actions. Repeat this several times and the negative feedback it received previously is overridden by the positive reinforcement it has now been receiving (i.e. satisfying its hunger). Now if presented with another Crappie imitation, it will likely strike at the perceived prey again.

To add to this scenario, now the Bass has been caught again but this time associates not only the Crappie as a negative reinforcement, but it also adds the sounds of a trolling motor, or other man-made sounds into its memory. It does this because the man-made sounds were present in both instances. Eventually the negative connotation to the Crappie imitation may be removed, (due to repeated feedings without the presence of man-made sounds) but combine the two again, both Crappie and human sounds, and the fish may avoid them.

I think the fish in aquariums learn to avoid lures faster because of the always present influence of man. In the wild, there are more chances for them to have the positive feedback of a real meal when we as fisherman are not present.

Just my thoughts to add to the debate.

5bass reply :

I havent responded on this subject yet so here it goes.

I believe that bass can learn in the short term. For instance, a bass is caught on a crankbait on Friday. He sees the same crank on Saturday and Sunday but doesn't take it. Then M-F the next week, he doesnt see any baits, then all the sudden on the next Saturday, he sees the same crank and smashes it.

I just dont think they can retain their knowledge for long periods of time.

CWB reply :

Had a 6 lb+ break me off on a Sluggo a few years back. Re-rigged ,cast back to the exact same spot and caught the same fish on the next cast and got my Sluggo back. Last summer I had a monster wrap me around a post that a Pontoon boat was tied to. Broke me off and took my Senko. Later the next day I pulled a 7 lber out from under the same boat with my Senko still in his mug. Maybe their short term memory stinks.

MARSH MASTER reply :

Really with the size of there brain how long do ya'll think there memory is? I believe you can catch the same bass on the same bait the very next day maybe not in the same spot. Bass are predator's of opportunity I don't believe they're like a lion and go and stalk there prey. They wait for the right time when they're feeding.

Think about this. If your fishing bedding bass and you catch the buck off the bed. You put the buck back in the water and he goes right back and will hit it again.

Wayne P. reply :

I just remembered something that was mentioned at the Expo yesterday by the last presenter at the Hawg Trough. He asked where is the most pressured body of water. After several answers that no one named correctly, he said "the Hawg Trough". For three days and several hours each day, the bass had seen the same presentations numberous times. Kevin Van Dam, Dean Rojas, and some local guides had held seminars on that super clear "body of water". As he was finishing up his presentation and demonstrating lures, each presentation, drop shot, Senko, swimbait, spinnerbait, and crankbait got several strikes from the bass with several following that lost the race to hit it. I saw Dean Rojas do his Kermey demo on two different days. The bass kept taking it . There was a small school of baitfish in the tank Sunday that was fed to the bass that morning and the bass would even go thru the baitfish school to hit lures either on the surface, below them, or at the same level. Them bass must have been "good ole boys" ;D

Muddy reply :

Quote
One of the assumptions being made in these threads is that being caught is a major negative experience for bass. Do bass know fear? Do bass experience pain from the experience? Most animals who experience fear cower once they know what caused that fear. So much to think about - so much research to do.
I'm going fishing, and the ones that bite I will enjoy, and the ones that don't, I don't care about.

THATS A GOOD POINT

Mattlures reply :

I would imagine that a bass's memory varies between fish. It would also be influenced by how many times it ate that crank bait. Yes I could see the same fish hitting a week later but what about the time after that, I think it would take longer each time and at some point if it kept happening it would assosiate danger with it and stop eating it all together. Again this depends on the bait and fish. I would think a crank bait would be "learned" faster becuase of how unnatural it is.

This is of course a guess though. I think some info is retained short term and some long term.

Catt aslo asked the question of " if bass kept being harrassed when they spawn then wouldnt they lean to spawn deeper?" HMMMM funny he asked that becuase that is exactly what they do out here in our clear pressured waters. Of course they need sunlight or the eaggs wont live so The bigger older smarter ones spawn as deep as they can while still getting some sunlight penatration. Imagine that

5bass reply :

Quote

Think about this. If your fishing bedding bass and you catch the buck off the bed. You put the buck back in the water and he goes right back and will hit it again.

....and how many times have you put the buck in the livewell and made cast after cast after cast to the female and she just doesn't even acknowledge there's a bait in sight?

Strange things happen during the spawn. All rules are put on hold during the spawn.

Muddy reply :

I absolutely am feeling you 4 bizzle I have 4 years of logs that suggest that fish on smaller public waters, HEAVILY PRESSURED and seeing a certain lure over and over again MAY FOR SOME REASON AVOID THAT LURE! And then when the nest class of bass say reach around 11 to 13 inches that lure comes hot for those bass mainly.

We have to be careful about putting human traits on to fish like the power to reason , and if they have long term memory

You want to know if fish feel fear; Ask anyone who fishes gin clear water, catch or spook one bass and just their movements along can spook the rest of the fish. How do you know they are spooked: their gills start to flare, the dart rapidly around and literally try and bury themselves in cover

Every lake is not the lake we fish on. Every lake is not Toledo Bend or Mauch Chunk and if you deny the fish can act differently from place to place, Then one pattern would catch every bass in all the USA>

I absolutely respect you Catt, what you have taught me is invaluable, sooner or later a student has to think for themselves, and teachers can miss things. You do seem to be changing what some of us are saying, as making a number for pressure on Toledo Bend and when I used it you increased the number bu 4,400 fisherman which still left t Toldeo vastly under pressured when compared to the Chunk, on any given day

I think since all the men in this discussion are reputable that it is pointing out that on different bodies of water we see different things, there is no denying this.

Please lets keep this civil, this is a great topic with much to learn

Muddy reply :

Quote
IMO I think this whole argument is subjective and relative.
"Fish are smarter than we give them credit for"

Well, I think some fish are smarter than some people give them credit for. Some people throw the same bait in the same location because they were killing them there before. They don't stop to think are the conditions the same, etc... These guys are NOT as smart as they give themselves credit for.

Some fish are dumber than some people give them credit for. Darwin does work in the fish world too I assume. The fittest survive and live long enough to become lunkers by learning. Some fish will hit the same thing over and over because those are the dumb ones of the group.

Depending upon the fishing pressure, population of fish, etc they 'learn' at different paces. Whether or not a fish is 'educated' doesn't mean you're guaranteed to catch them or get skunked. Remember there are different kinds of strikes right.

Bottom line for me is don't overthink it; if you have the time to go fishing, go fishing. Enjoy your time outside whether the fish in your lake/pond are smart or stupid.

Excellent! I think we Humanize fish too much

Bassn Blvd reply :

Paul, I don't think I have anything to worry about either. I know the fish in my scenario aren't conditioned to not hit. That's what I was trying to say by mentioning how often this lake is fished and with the same baits. We still pull out numbers on a regular basis. And if by chance we don't, on a particular day, then I attribute it to the weather or other natural phenomena.

Now get your ARS down here and teach me some techniques on locating/catching the big ones in there. I'm stuck on 8# and my buddy 9.13 so I know they are in there.

dr.crow reply :

Quote
That's very hard for me to buy, as you are putting human traits and thought processes onto pea brained fish. I don't buy that.

It is an analogy to assist understanding. The aquarium experiment demonstrates bass become accustomed to lures, pea brain or no. All the discussion on logic versus negative association is irrelevent - experiments have demonstrated they "learn" to not bite certain things.

The broader question, then, was - can such an experiment be applied to a bass in the wild, and so the analogy was provided to assist understanding that there are still many variables involved (some may learn faster than others, some are younger and less experienced, some have never seen a lure, etc etc). That's whyh controlled experiments are so important - eliminate as many variables as you can in order to really measure a cause and effect.

dr.crow reply :

Furthermore, I just went and re-read the conclusions, which were: "What's it all mean for the bass angler? While there are no hard and fast rules in fishing, the research certainly seems to suggest that anglers should try different lures in the same areas, especially areas they fish regularly or that are heavily pressured."

I wonder if anyone here disagree with this statement?

dr.crow reply :

One of Catts original posts several pages back did get me to really think more on this aquarium experiment, and I believe he may be correct that this set of conditions stacked the odds in favor of the fish not repeating hitting lures - no cover, repeated conditioning, etc. It is in fact a great point.

For a fish in the wild, so many other factors are at play, that fish may react completely differently, and so conclusions drawn from an aquarium experiment could be incorrect.

I still have a hard time imagining the effect will be ZERO - it may not be nearly as high as an aquarium "pet" displays, but it very well may not be ZERO effect either. At least those experiments demonstrated that the tendency and capability to become lure shy is there, right? How much that translates into the wild is still to be determined.

SirSnookalot reply :

Bass are not the wariest of fish in fact I think they are pretty easy to catch, either they on or off. The older I get the more I go back to basics and my production has not suffered. I carry a few lures, spoons or spinners and sooner or later we catch them.

Outside influences can curtail your efforts. Right now in my part of Florida they are spraying for weeds in some of the lakes and canals, every year about this time the bite is slow, in a few weeks once this poison is disspated the bite will be back to normal.

Muddy reply :

Great,perfect person to ask this to. Hey Mr.Snook since I see your age, you can help with some of the puzzle

Are the Lures you are using older than 20 years old?

Are they lures that typically Bass would not see regularly today?

When were those lures hot historically, are they as hot today?

Do you notice some lures typically being effective in cycles?

Are those same lures catching basically the same size/age bass in bodies of water that have fish of various size/age on them?

Thanks I am curious for your answers

oh and what Lures if you do not mind

Dominick

SirSnookalot reply :

All my lures are new. I fish x-raps size 8 & 10, recently I found a lure called a "baze minnow", fishes higher in the water column, works well in shallow Florida canals and lakes. Lots of weeds here so I use plastics rigged weedless. I like the Mepps spoons with a single hook. Bite is slow I go to a spinner like a Panther or Mepps. Probably 90% of my freshwater fishing is done in my backyard, I have 5 ponds and a canal here, peacocks, myans, tilapia snd oscars as well. When the wind is down I go out with a fly rod.

I try new things but seem to go back to my basics.

I see you're only a few years younger than me.

Muddy reply :

Thanks, Yea a few years younger. I am trying to find out from long term fisherman, in different parts of the country and on different types of water, if there is any correlation to bass getting accostomed to not bittting lures

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

SirSnookalot reply :

Thanks for the inquiry, yes I have been doing this a while, my dad staring taking me at about age 5. I learned a lot from him, I don't know how he learned so much, he was a city boy, lol.

Before retireing to Florida I lived on a lake in Michigan just oustside of Detroit. Many days after work I would row the shore line with a nightcrawler harness, may have been the most productive method I ever did. Great stress reliever as well.

I hear the blufish bite is on at the beach so I'm to hit the surf for a couple of hours.

Catt reply :

If bass can truly learn and retain lure memory why are they still being caught?

So if it takes a bass more than once to remember a lure before it remembers it then what is the number of times it takes before memory takes place?

And no I have not been proven wrong do to the fact that where is this decrease in numbers of fish available to be caught due to lure memory. Y'all state this theory over and over but yet bass continue to be caught

Bass are not completely stupid but they are not geniuses either

(Catt aslo asked the question of " if bass kept being harrassed when they spawn then wouldnt they lean to spawn deeper?") Talk about changing what someone said! I would never make that many spelling errors in such a short sentence.

Muddy reply :

I think you have to throw this in the mix Catt;

If a fish can remember, how long can it remember and how is our concept of memory in line with what ever it is they have?-

What ever this "learned/memory" is how dooes it stand up against thier instinct to eat?

Muddy reply :

So conversely Catt; If a bass is a bass no matter where it swims and what their surroundings are like, and have absolutely no memory of dnager/lures >>> then one, bait and one presentation would sooner or later catch all the bass, that's not right either.

Catt reply :

Cognitive Ethology: The fusion of cognitive science and classical ethology into cognitive ethology "emphasizes observing animals under more-or-less natural conditions, with the objective of understanding the evolution, adaptation (function), causation, and development of the species-specific behavioral repertoire".

Dr. Jones's explanation of Habituation learning

Habituation This is the type of learning through which bass gradually become less sensitive to particular stimulations. Examples would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.

Cognitive Ethology's explanation

Habituation = Learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information

Animals stop responding to stimuli that do not provide appropriate feedback.

ï Gray squirrels respond to the alarm calls of other squirrels.

They stop responding if the calls are not followed by an attack ("cry-wolf" effect).

Think on those two explanations and the theory of bass learning not to hit lures

Muddy reply :

Thanks Catt; Dr.Jones works for a bait company, I place little faith in what his end results are. They were not published in a peer reviewed scholastic paper anyway, but a book.

I am interested on observations around the country , by fellas here.

This has proven to be an interesting topic to me.There may be no definitive answer, but evidence abounds on all side of this question.

Bass will spook other bass, when agitated or frightened, many of us including me have seen this,

Fish respond to danger, especially schooling fish, which explains their cooperative formations, much like flocks of birds when they are being attacked

tyrius. reply :

Quote
If bass can truly learn and retain lure memory why are they still being caught?

Because as you say below bass aren't geniuses. They can not remember every single lure for their entire lives. Also, each individual fish has not seen/been caught by every single lure/color/retrieve combination possible.

Quote
So if it takes a bass more than once to remember a lure before it remembers it then what is the number of times it takes before memory takes place?

This is irrelevent to the discussion as we are first trying to establish IF bass are capable of associating lures with danger or lures with no food value and learning to ignore them.

This study even showed the individual fish has varying degrees of retaining the associative behaviors. So, the real answer is that it varies fish to fish.

Quote
And no I have not been proven wrong do to the fact that where is this decrease in numbers of fish available to be caught due to lure memory. Y'all state this theory over and over but yet bass continue to be caught

This theory is proven when an angler gets the privilege of fishing a body of water than no one else has ever fished. Everyone that I know (including people who have posted in these threads) who has had this privilege has much more success in the first outings then they do after they have fished it regularly for a period of time. The angler continues to catch fish, but not at the same rate as the first outing (given similar weather/seasonal conditions).

This is especially true for baits that do not resemble normal prey.

Baits that closely resemble normal prey continue to work because while the instance of being caught with the lure provides a negative association that negative association may be counteracted by subsequent positive associations of striking the actual prey and successfully feeding.

Quote
Bass are not completely stupid but they are not geniuses either

Sounds exactly like what everyone else is saying.

tyrius. reply :

Quote
For a fish in the wild, so many other factors are at play, that fish may react completely differently, and so conclusions drawn from an aquarium experiment could be incorrect.

I disagree completely. The purpose of this experiment was to determine if bass can learn associative behaviors and then to see if they can retain those associations for a given period of time.

The fact that this occurred in an aquarium is irrelevent to the fact that the experiment clearly shows that bass are able to learn and retain associative behaviors.

Now, the big question becomes how does this apply in the wild, in HUGE lakes, small lakes, and backyard ponds? How should the angler apply these facts to his/her fishing? How should it affect lure choice (most soft plastics being shown as the "least" retained/learned)? What does it take for a fish to learn and retain these same associations in the wild? How long do they retain those associations? etc. etc. etc.

dr.crow reply :

Tyrius - I understand your point and felt the same way. I also think there are a lot of conspiracy theorists who throw good scientific data out the window because of general mistrust. My experience versus a scientist sort of thing. On the otherhand, there is truth that extending laboratory data into the field can easily lead to wrong conclusions. One must always be extremely wary of that. I develop additives for engine oils, and there are many lab tests to demonstrate a formulation provides good oxidation control, prevents wear, etc. But the car manufacturers don't want to rely on a lab test, so instead they spend millions running the fluids in actual engines in actual cars and taxis. The reason? Mistrust of lab data and wanting real world data.

The real world of a bass in a lake or pond is vastly different than an aquarium, so now I believe it is actually a good point that more work should be done on "wild" bass to answer this question.

paul. reply :

to me this issue of bass "intelligence" (how much they actually learn) is inseparably linked to the truth (whatever that may be) about whether bass are basically cookie cutter clones of each other whether each adult bass is to some degree an "individual" within the system with its own "personality", preferences, and behavior patterns.

if adult bass do indeed have and develop different "personalities", preferences, and behaviors, is this just the natural order of things? in other words, is this just a trait of the species that inevitably the bass within a given system will start exhibiting their own "personality" regardless of the stimuli they are exposed to? or, to some degree, does the stimuli, both positive and negative, actually determine what type of "personality" the fish will develop? or is it a little of both?

when you factor in the "personality" question, it puts a very interesting spin on the "intelligence" question. if bass inevitably develop their own personalities (i.e. wary vs. curious, prefers deep water vs. prefers shallow water, etc.) regardless of stimuli, then is it their preferences and behaviors that makes one seem "smarter" than another and more difficult to catch when in reality there is no difference at all in their "level" of intelligence?

-OR-

if bass develop their own "personalities", even partly, DUE TO the stimuli they experience does this not prove without question that some are indeed "smarter" than others because they were able to develop behaviors, patterns, and preferences in response to and because of the stimuli they experienced that made them more difficult catch?

another question that comes to mind as we study this is, exactly what is "smart" anyway? suppose a farmer decides to start feeding the bass in his pond minnows every week. half of the bass population figures out what is going on and before long, these fish are there waiting on the farmer at the spot he feeds them every day. meanwhile, the other half, for whatever reason, never picks up on this and has to scrounge out their own meals from the available forage with the pond. the fed bass become fat and healthy. the unfed bass lag behind. i ask you, which bass are the smart ones?

but wait a minute, the story is not over. suppose after feeding half his bass population for a year, the farmer decides he wants a fish dinner. he promptly shows up at his regular time at the pond with a bucket of minnows and a fishing pole and proceeds to catch every one of the fat, healthy fish that he has gorged on minnows for months and puts a mess of fish in his freezer. now i ask again, which bass are the smart ones?

curious to get y'all's answers, especially on the "personality" stuff.

Muddy reply :

Paul: I can not say if different Bass have different "personalities" I will be more aware, if I know where a certain bass is hanging out in the lake, THAT IS AN INTERSTING QUESTION 8-)

Mattlures reply :

Ha Ha Catt, yes I cant spell and I dont care to go back and spell check. It is not important to me. But you got the point.

Muddy you are wise not to accept everything people try to feed you. However the research goes along with what I and probably everybody else has seen and experienced for themselfs. Weather they except it or not.

Muddy reply :

Hey Matt let's see if they get smart to your baby bass, got my first Mattlures ,baby bass in Perch from SLOMOE :-?

dr.crow reply :

Alrighty then.

thetr20one reply :

Just my $.02. Bass are not intelligent but, are very instinctive. Every living creature has some sort of short term memory. Some must be shorter than others because a bass will sometimes repeatedly hit lures and be hooked, get off, and come back after THE SAME LURE. Most noticeably to me are jerkbaits and smallmouth which on Erie you can watch em come up, smash the lure, get played, get off, and come right back after the lure. To me this has always seemed the instinctive behavior of not wasting effort. I pitch "creature" baits that look alien to fish that are off and running before I turn my reel handle. This to me has always seemed to be instinctive behavior also either of a defensive or hunger/hoarding position. Never in my fishing have I thought a bass or any other fish to have ANY level of "RATIONAL THOUGHT". You would like to think that these fish that fool you are "SMART" but, they are wild animals that must kill, eat, and react to nature by using instinct not thought. You are just a part of their nature. Do you really think a fish that can feel sound pressure doesn't hear your trolling motor,waves slapping your hull or the ping of your sonar? Like most other wild creatures, bass use instinct over every other sense they may have.

Bassaholic84 reply :

You know Deer arent to smart either but they definetely know when they are being hunted and the BIG BUCKS most of them, after rut you only see at night.

Every bass is diffrerent they have genetics too so there smarts are passed down too. So some are smart and some are stupid and im sure not many of the stupid ones make it to 7lbs.

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned. Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

Tin reply :

I would rather cut myself with a dull razor countless times then jump in a pool of acid than even try to think or understand this thread....

MARSH MASTER reply :

Quote

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned. Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

I think this is a joke if the bass are remembering spinnerbaits don't you think it took them long enough? How long have anglers been throwing these baits? I bet if you told Hank Parker this he would laugh. I think anglers are looking to deep into this and loosing confidence.

paul. reply :

in a way, i kind of feel sorry for someone who does not have access to small clear water lakes. you can learn so much by putting your rod down sometimes and just watching. it certainly does not seem to make the fish any easier to catch, but you can definitely learn a ton if you just observe. how useful your findings might be in terms of actually helping you catch fish is questionable. different for different folks i guess.

having had the benefit of fishing several small, clear water lakes over a period of several years, my conviction is that some adult bass do develop distinct "personalities", preferences, patterns, and behaviors. once you get to "know" these fish, you don't even have to rely on their markings to recognize them many times. with some you can actually tell which fish it is by the way it acts or by where or when you spot it once you've spent enough time around them. some fish are extremely aggressive by nature and i remember one 2 pounder in particular that would chase fish twice its size away from a group of bluegill it was stalking. saw it do this many times. others seem to be quite curious, and will swim right up to you and look at you as if to study you while you are studying them. others seem almost apathetic. they will swim right by you and pay no regard whatsoever. others seem cautiously interested in your presence and will study you from a distance. still others are so wary and cautious that you'd never know they were in there and never see them at all, except when you catch them. the interesting thing is, at least to me, that once i have gotten to "know" these fish, the same fish consistently exhibit the same traits.

until you catch one that is.

then a fish will completely change it's "personality". funny thing is, that it always seem to revert back to it's original and "established "personality" unless it is caught repeatedly. in that case it seems to take longer and longer for it to "become itself" again each time it is caught. fish that i have caught repeatedly sometimes change their "personality" and behavior patterns permanently. i am not speculating, guessing, or supposing here. these are things i have seen with my own eyes with fish that i "know" and recognize by sight in some of the places i fish.

just throwing that out there for whatever it's worth in this discussion. perhaps others have experienced the same type of things.

thetr20one reply :

Quote
You know Deer arent to smart either but they definetely know when they are being hunted and the BIG BUCKS most of them, after rut you only see at night.
Every bass is diffrerent they have genetics too so there smarts are passed down too. So some are smart and some are stupid and im sure not many of the stupid ones make it to 7lbs.

BASSTIMES had a real good article on this and it gave lots of thoughts from pros and if i remember correctly many of them agreed they learned. Thats why they use a lot less spinnerbaits

Deer are stupid in a different way. Their brains are more developed than a fish. However a deer has no idea it is actually being hunted. It just realizes intrusion into it's territory. Whether it be you, me, a wolf, a bear or whatever it uses it's superior sense of smell, and low light level vision to evade a PREDATOR. Which then puts predator/prey into effect which is all a part of it's "nature". I was hunting with my friend and shot a doe at 15 yards during gun season with a muzzloader when the smoke cleared there stood 4 other does that were with her, my friend shot another. Point being, the other deer had no clue as to what had just happened. After the second one was down the others ran no more than 40 yards loosely regrouped and then acted as if the whole event had not happened. I have another instance I shot on video of the same friend shooting another deer in the same situation with similar results this time one of the deer actually ran strait towards us, then turned went through a thicket regrouped with it's friends and carried on their way in no hurry. And the big buck thing is more of a point of bucks in general being highly territorial and not social in any way to anything, with the exception of summer when they will sometimes form bachelor groups for reasons I cannot recall right now. And the reason for the daytime disappearance is generally because that is when humans are most active.

bmadd reply :

I think bass do learn and over time shy away from certain lures and or techniques. I think the big thing your missing Catt is that fish continue to be caught and will be because there is an unlimited combination of factors that change the way a fish will see these lures. The clarity of the water plus the 12 different color selections of one worm could give you multiple visuals to a fish. Then, to add to that, the angler may twitch, drag, hop, swim, dead stick, or any combination of those techniques plus things he doesn't even mean to do could add to those variations of the same lure that the fish is seeing. Then add to the fact that it will look different coming through thick grass than it would being dropped under a dock or beside a log. You can go on and on with the possible "ways" a lure can be viewed by a bass. I think they do learn but to expect them to see all presentations and colors and recognize danger with each one in their lifetime is crazy. That is why I think that fish learn but there will always be a chance for the same fish to be caught.

Bassaholic84 reply :

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I think this is a joke if the bass are remembering spinnerbaits don't you think it took them long enough? How long have anglers been throwing these baits? I bet if you told Hank Parker this he would laugh. I think anglers are looking to deep into this and loosing confidence.

Now they were talking about tournament fishing and im pretty sure it was kvd who was saying it, so he could of meant they see so many from "weekend anglers" he wants to throw something they havent seen. KVD always has his own style and power fishes when everyone thinks you should finnesse thats why hes the angler of the year AGAIN

thetr20one reply :

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in a way, i kind of feel sorry for someone who does not have access to small clear water lakes. you can learn so much by putting your rod down sometimes and just watching. it certainly does not seem to make the fish any easier to catch, but you can definitely learn a ton if you just observe. how useful your findings might be in terms of actually helping you catch fish is questionable. different for different folks i guess.
having had the benefit of fishing several small, clear water lakes over a period of several years, my conviction is that some adult bass do develop distinct "personalities", preferences, patterns, and behaviors. once you get to "know" these fish, you don't even have to rely on their markings to recognize them many times. with some you can actually tell which fish it is by the way it acts or by where or when you spot it once you've spent enough time around them. some fish are extremely aggressive by nature and i remember one 2 pounder in particular that would chase fish twice its size away from a group of bluegill it was stalking. saw it do this many times. others seem to be quite curious, and will swim right up to you and look at you as if to study you while you are studying them. others seem almost apathetic. they will swim right by you and pay no regard whatsoever. others seem cautiously interested in your presence and will study you from a distance. still others are so wary and cautious that you'd never know they were in there and never see them at all, except when you catch them. the interesting thing is, at least to me, that once i have gotten to "know" these fish, the same fish consistently exhibit the same traits.

until you catch one that is.

then a fish will completely change it's "personality". funny thing is, that it always seem to revert back to it's original and "established "personality" unless it is caught repeatedly. in that case it seems to take longer and longer for it to "become itself" again each time it is caught. fish that i have caught repeatedly sometimes change their "personality" and behavior patterns permanently. i am not speculating, guessing, or supposing here. these are things i have seen with my own eyes with fish that i "know" and recognize by sight in some of the places i fish.

just throwing that out there for whatever it's worth in this discussion. perhaps others have experienced the same type of things.

Agreed. Kinda I think.

I haven't fished a pond or any other super small body of water in a long, long time. What I have done is spent countless hours on Erie and a few other clear lakes and watched myself and friends fish for fish we could see. Or in water that you could watch a fish trailing a crank, jerkbait or other swimming lure. Not one would act the same as the other. I was standing next to my brother-in-law we both cast to the same general area and were retrieving our cranks, he said check it out. I looked and there were 8-10 smallies following his just then from nowhere a fish outside the group smashed his lure, the others disappeared and no more than 3 winds later I also had a fish on. Was it from the group of followers? I don't know I stopped paying attention to my bait for those seconds. Things like this have happened numerous times and for the most part try to talk with conviction only of what I know. For my age I would be willing to bet my time on the water and in the woods is comparable with any hardcore non-guiding sportsman and way beyond average. With the exception of this past year. I have seen things I can't explain or even guess why they happened and I have also made predictions of certain events based on prior similiar events that have went down exactly as I thought they would. Then other predictions that went completely the opposite way.

dr.crow reply :

What kind of experiment would tell us what we want to know? What if you took a pond or small lake and every time you caught a fish you tagged it. You would only use one type of lure for this experiment and use it repeatedly. Each day or week you would record total caught, tagged and untagged. You might have to tag it with the date it was caught so you could track time between subsequent catches. Seems this would be an excellent study - would still have to work out the details of how it would work, but seems like it would be very interesting and a step closer to reality than an aquarium. Now all we need is someone with a private stocked pond who can conduct the experiment...

5bass reply :

[postsmovedhere1] 51 [postsmovedhere2] General Bass Fishing Forum [move by] five.bass.limit.

Tin reply :

I feel bad for you 5bl. ;D

dr.crow reply :

Warmwater Fisheries: Symposium I (1991)

edited by James L. Cooper, R. H. Hamre

Edition: illustrated

Published by DIANE Publishing, 1999

ISBN 0788182447, 9780788182440

407 pages

dr.crow reply :

Linking Angling Catch Rates and Fish Learning under

Catch-and-Release Regulations

PAUL J. ASKEY,* SHANE A. RICHARDS,1

AND JOHN R. POST

Department of Biological Sciences, University of Calgary,

2500 University Drive Northwest, Calgary, Alberta T2N 1N4, Canada

American Journal of Fisheries Management 26:10201029, 2006

DOI: 10.1577/M06-035.1

Catt reply :

Cognitive Ethology: The idea that one might learn anything of biological interest about an animal by isolating it in a box and bombarding it with artificial stimuli," in particular, is what cognitive ethology seeks to challenge.

Habituation = Learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information

Animals stop responding to stimuli that do not provide appropriate feedback.

ï Gray squirrels respond to the alarm calls of other squirrels.

They stop responding if the calls are not followed by an attack ("cry-wolf" effect).

The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

What is being ignored here is this is Theory and Theory is not fact, there are always two sides to every theory and neither side can be ignored.

Catt reply :

I to highly respect your and everyone's option but by the same token Muddy just because y'all see this on the one body of water y'all fish, no matter how many fish caught and how many years y'all have fished it does not make it gospel truth for the rest of us and the bodies of water we fish.

If I've tried to teach anything to anyone here it has been to look at things from more than one side and not take anything for granted. Again since we are talking theory there is not right side nor is there any wrong side of this discussion.

If learning to ignore irrelevant stimuli or stimuli that convey little or no information teaches the bass to not be afraid of the same stimuli that taught it to be afraid in the first place did the bass truly learn?

Catt reply :

If you are interested in researching this topic farther I suggest the following

Animal cognition is the title given to a modern approach to the mental capacities of non-human animals. It has developed out of comparative psychology, but has also been strongly influenced by the approach of ethology behavioral ecology, and evolutionary psychology. The alternative name cognitive ethology is therefore sometimes used; and much of what used to be considered under the title of animal intelligence is now thought of under this heading.

tyrius. reply :

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The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

Hmm, this looks remarkably familiar!!!

Is this not what those on the "bass remember" side have been saying the entire time? In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures. Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure. Same thing no?

Catt reply :

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The stimuli that teaches a bass not to hit certain lures is being caught by it and the repeated seeing of the lure. But as the stimuli is repeatedly seen by the bass with no negative influences from striking it the stimuli teaches the bass to no long fear the lure resulting in it striking it.

Hmm, this looks remarkably familiar!!!

Is this not what those on the "bass remember" side have been saying the entire time? In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures. Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure. Same thing no?

Same thing yes but is this really learning?

"The idea that one might learn anything of biological interest about an animal by isolating it in a box and bombarding it with artificial stimuli," in particular, is what cognitive ethology seeks to challenge.

tyrius. reply :

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Same thing yes but is this really learning?

So you agree with the results but not the method the results were obtained?

Catt reply :

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Same thing yes but is this really learning?

So you agree with the results but not the method the results were obtained?

Learn: to gain knowledge or understanding of by study, instruction, or experience

In essence, bass can be conditioned against hitting certain lures. Then after a variable period of time the bass will no longer retain that condition and will be able to be caught again on that lure.

What did the bass actually learn?

Catt reply :

Muddy, Animal Cognition, Cognitive Science & Cognitive Ethology

tyrius. reply :

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What did the bass actually learn?

ahh, I thought in your earlier post you meant what did the angler learn.

If you want to be specific in the terminology even the original article puts learn in quotes when talking about what bass "learn".

Here's another reason why bassresource.com rules:

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/angling.html

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Researchers at the Illinois Natural History Survey completed an interesting study on this topic. First, let's look at their study design. They used three ponds, all about 0.2 acres in size. All ponds were stocked with the same number (420/acre) and the same sizes (9-13 inches) of largemouth bass. After bass were stocked, anxious samplers waited 2 weeks before fishing began. They varied amounts of fishing pressure at each pond (low, moderate, and high). All fishing was catch and release. At the end of the 3-month study, only two bass had died. One was lost in the low-pressure pond, and one in the high-pressure pond.
In the low-pressure pond, fishing amounted to 170 hours/acre, and anglers caught 3.0 bass per hour. In the moderate-pressure pond, anglers fished 340 hours/acre, and caught 1.2 bass per hour. In the high-pressure pond, angling was 680 hours/acre of water, and they only caught 0.4 bass per hour. The more experienced bass in the higher pressure ponds certainly learned, and were less likely to bite.

In the second part of the same study, researchers stocked each of three small ponds with 75 bass per acre. During the next 49 days, each pond received 23 sessions of catch and release fishing. Each session. Pond A was fished for 0.8 hour. Pond B for 1.6 hours, and Pond C for 3.3 hours. Figure 3 shows what happened. As fishing pressure increased, fish became harder to catch. Near the end of the study, no bass could be caught in Pond B or Pond C. The best bass fishing occurred and catch rates of bass persisted throughout the study period in Pond A. which had the shortest fishing sessions (0.8hr/ac). Bass seemed to learn more from the length of fishing sessions rather than the number of times the pond was fished. Again the more experienced the bass became, the harder they were to catch.

Catt reply :

Is that not isolating the fish in a box (pond) and bombarding it with artificial stimuli with the idea that one might learn a proposed biological answer; I fail to see where this type of research is any different than research done in an aquarium.

Dr Jones explanation of Habituation learning is as follows: This is the type of learning through which bass gradually become less sensitive to particular stimulations. Examples would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by.

Now given that explanation one must then conclude that if we constantly walk around our clear water pond the bass would no longer shy from people who walk by.

See the problem with research done in an aquarium?

paul. reply :

wow! i have no idea who the "best" angler on this site is, but the title of "stubbornest" is undisputed and uncontested. tommy, i have suddenly developed an overwhelming and deep respect for your family. they must be very special people indeed. ;D ;D ;D

i have never met you or fished with you (although i'd like to one day ). i have never seen the water you fish. (but i don't think it's a small pond ) and yet i believe that if you will provide me with a few simple, key pieces of information that maybe, just maybe you might re-think your position on how "smart" bass really are. i believe that using simple, undeniable logic i might even be able to get you to at least consider that you yourself have to some degree been a victim of bass "intelligence". i hesitate to say i will convince you, because it's pretty obvious that's not gonna happen.

question is, are you game?

dr.crow reply :

I'm just sharing information - no axe to grind. I couldn't sleep last night and searched and searched - it just takes a lot of time to dig up these things, without access through a fancy institutional library, but they are out there. I found quite a few more but didn't want to bombard you all.

Oh, and if you read the posts closely, I think we are making some progress.

Remember - an open mind is a key to learning, and an ego stops learning dead in its tracks. Doesn't mean you have to believe everything someone tells you, but you have to be open to the possibility your previous view of how things are may be wrong, then formulate a new one with all the evidence at hand. Just a thougt.

I appreciate everyone here, too - this discussion has been entertaining and educational and I appreciate your letting me join in on it.

Batman

tyrius. reply :

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I fail to see where this type of research is any different than research done in an aquarium.

Then let's just drop this because if you can't see the difference between a pond and an aquarium then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Just for the record I grew up fishing small ponds (some probably that small), but I'm pretty sure that I've never made a cast into an aquarium.

Jimzee reply :

I'm glad y'all have been civil on this thread, butted heads a little...yes, but civil.

It's been a real good read so far, probably one of the best threads on here in a while. I am opinionated as anyone and I think both sides of the issue have more in common after reading through it.

Do I think bass learn if pressured? Yes

Do they maintain long term memory if not pressured? I don't think so.

Catt reply :

Please read verbatim the Illinois Natural History Survey and you will find

Three ponds, all about 0.2 acres in size

Stocked with the same number (420/acre) and the same sizes (9-13 inches) of largemouth bass.

Waited 2 weeks before fishing

Y'all find this a fair assessment of how bass act in the wild anymore than research done in an aquarium?

There hundreds of scientist & biologist who disagree that these types of studies are viable; here is just a short list.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/BiblioCognitiveEthology.html

And yes Paul I have fished ponds, marshes, streams, rivers, lakes, & reservoirs all across the southern US.

dr.crow reply :

We've moved from debating the validity of aquarium results to debating the validity of pond results. There has been research on larger bodies of water which I've posted, as well as others, and these can be debated also. You get into even large bodies of water and complicated statistics have to be employeed - yep - more debate. Even the researchers typically conclude more information is needed, but the body of evidence builds, and I think it prudent to factor the possibilities into our thinking.

The entire discussion on cognition is irrelevent - that thought line is more about the why than the what. And as a great fisherman with 40 years experience on the water keeps telling me, stop asking the why and focus on the what and where. You'll never know the why until the fish start talking.

tyrius. reply :

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Y'all find this a fair assessment of how bass act in the wild anymore than research done in an aquarium?

Yes, I find it a more fair assessment than aquarium testing.

However, I find the distinction completely irrelevent. It matters not where bass show that they are able to "learn" associative behaivors. What matters is the fact that they do "learn" them.

Do you disagree with the statement that bass exhibit the ability to "learn" through association?

paul. reply :

catt, if you would be so kind, please provide answers to the following simple questions. you may or may not know the "exact" answer to some of these questions but do the best you can. you have criticized and questioned the data in this thread, claiming it to be invalid, so we will use your own data. i have no clue what your answers will be, and yet i am fairly confident that we will draw one of two inevitable conclusions, both of which will be equally unsettling to you.

1. your age.

2. the state of the union in which you live.

3. how many years have you fished within the state where you live?

4. estimate of how many different bodies of water have you fished at least 10 times within the state where you live.

5. name of the lake within your state where you have fished the most within the past 5+ years and/or consider yourself the most familiar with - i.e your "home lake".

6. estimated total time in years/ months you have spent fishing your "home lake".

7. estimated average amount of fishing trips you have made on your "home lake" per year since you started fishing there (estimated total # of times you have fished the lake divided by total years fished.)

8. estimated average length of fishing trip (on the average, in hours, how long do you spend on the water when you go fishing?)

9. how many types of baits do you fish with any regularity? (a "type" of bait would be a "category" of bait - i.e. lipless crank, jig, etc.)

10. your honest assessment of your own overall fishing experience level . (choose one of the following: novice, intermediate, experienced)

11. the weight of your personal best bass from your "home lake".

12. date you caught your personal best bass from your "home lake".

13. number of fish you have caught within 8 oz. of your personal best bass from your "home lake"

14. weight of the lake record from your "home lake"

15. weight of your state record bass.

J Francho reply :

I think the heated debate in this thread is causing global warming.

paul. reply :

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I think the heated debate in this thread is causing global warming.

i wish it was. trust me, if it was even a little warmer outside, i wouldn't have spent nearly this much time on this issue. ;D

.ghoti. reply :

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Dr. Keith Jones has one objective and one objective only. As he does have a good sized brain, and can quickly learn, he had the ability to learn that Berkley writes his paycheck.

That is the best thing said in this thread.

The only thing I'll add is; Anthropomorphism anyone?

dr.crow reply :

Ahh - gotta love the conspiracy theorists. But...there's plenty of independent research out there.

I wonder why the Berkley scientists didn't say, "But our research proves that using a Berkley Powerworm will vastly increase the odds that bass will strike repeatedly after being caught." ...or something to that effect.

It may not be anthropomorphism, but by presupposing darker motives behind Berkley scientists, aren't we attributing uniquely specific human characteristics in *perhaps* ourselves to others within the human race? I certainly don't assume they are working for their sales and marketing counterparts. Perhaps Berkey is looking for real answers. And perhaps Berkley realizes if they played that game, they would lose in the long run. But then again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I've done enough homework to realize what they are saying isn't any different than what indepent researchers have found. ;D

tyrius. reply :

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The only thing I'll add is; Anthropomorphism anyone?

Learning through association is not anthropomorphism. Learning through association is what animals do. That's how you train your dog to go outside to do his business. That's how you train your dog to do tricks. That's how goldfish learn that humans coming up to their tank means that they are going to be fed. That's how parrots learn to talk. Cows learn not to touch electric fences. etc, etc, etc.

Animals adjust their behavior (ie learn) through the positive and negative results of external stimuli and/or their own actions.

dr.crow reply :

Quote: "But...there's plenty of independent research out there."

For you consipracy theorists, just remember the universe responds back to you with exactly the thoughts and ideas you send out to it.

Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at will change.

Regarding the analogy, I stand by it:

DWI = fish getting caught on a hook

Getting DWI and then still driving drunk = fish getting caught again because competition with other fish, getting surprised, whatever. Yeah - it happens even though DWIs DECREASE drunk driving.

Not drinking and driving after having received a DWI = Big FAT Mama Bass that was caught once when she was 2 lbs and you'll never catch her on an artificial lure. Might better try a live shad.

Point being - don't draw a broad conclusion just because you caught a bass twice on same lure in a relatively short period. And by the way for you anthropomorphism fans - that is the ONLY point of the analogy. But I'm sure this will draw more anthropomorphism posts - should keep us going for a while. LOL :

paul. reply :

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Dr. Keith Jones has one objective and one objective only. As he does have a good sized brain, and can quickly learn, he had the ability to learn that Berkley writes his paycheck.

That is the best thing said in this thread.

i don't know about the best thing said, but i also found it very interesting when george questioned dr. keith jones' motives, hinting that money might have been one of them.

i found it even more interesting when the next day george made this statement:

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I am short on experience chasing this critter, only 50 years now, but to me bass are dumb as rocks.

hmmmmm.......... what possible reason could a bass guide have for saying the bass he knows about and fishes for are "dumb as rocks"? (particularly in the same sentence he mentions his 50 years of experience :)

could the answer be, oh i dunno, just going out on a limb here - MONEY???!!!

cuts both ways don't it?

do i think george is a fine bass fisherman? absolutely. much better than i ever hope to be.

do i think he's a shrewd businessman? without a doubt

Md reply :

At this years BASS Champion's Choice at Onieda Lake Iaconelli was fishing the fish release area not too far from the weigh stage and word was that it peeved off a lot of the other pros. The released fish bit someones lure, rode around in someones livewell for some period of the prior day(s), were put in a weigh bag and carried to a stage, weighed on a scale without water, and then put in a release boat and taken back to the release area and put back into the water. My question is this...why were the other pros mad that he was fishing the release area since these fish would never bite with all the trauma they had just been through? He had the heaviest bag of the tourney and finished 3rd too...just a thought!

dr.crow reply :

Gee Muddy - Sorry to hear that. I've been enjoying our discussion and have greatly valued your comments. I mean that sincerely.

And I have to offer up an "oops" - I have purposely gone to where big tournament weigh ins were held the previous week because I knew a lot of bass were released there. And guess what - I did pretty well. Darn it! And just when I thought I was on to something!

J Francho reply :

Rojas won that event, but Ike may have had the biggest single day. Many of the locals have said that they like to fish the release areas, even after small club tourneys. I guess they just can't find their own spots, LOL.

Glenn reply :

Wow - 11 pages of opinions.

Opinions are just that - opinions. You state it, and move on. So what if somebody disagrees with you? It's still YOUR opinion!

11 pages with nothing conclusive.

Let's move on and let this thread die a natural death, before one of the mods spears it for dinner.

Bassn Blvd reply :

Spear fishing is out of season..

9892

Bass do learn!!! they are smarter then you think Read this 2024

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