Enormous size differences. 2024
Smalls reply :
I’ve seen the videos, read the articles. Guys down in California are catching these behemoths on trout colored swimbaits. They stock their lakes with trout for the bass to get nice and fat on. Their average bass is on point with our (MI) state record!
But! We have trout, too! Plenty of em! I imagine the bass here, just as they do in California, snack on them as well.
So why is it that the bass down there grow so much bigger? Are they not eating the same things? Does our cold, cold winter play a part in it?
There’s an abundance of information on why California bass grow so large, and plenty of videos and other information on fishing down there. But I have a hard time finding any information on fishing my lakes at all, let alone any info on why our fish don’t grow to these legendary sizes.
CroakHunter reply :
California has had Florida strain Bass transplanted there.
Smalls reply :
I might have misheard or misread the information, but regardless, the point that that their bass are eating trout still stands.
I imagine that there has to be other factors in why their bass are so large, it just seemed like the one that I see most.
wisconsin heat reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:11 PM, CroakHunter said:I don't think California has stocked trout in like 20 years
https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FishPlants/
Looks like they still do it a lot
CroakHunter reply :
Yeah I typed that then realized they did. Thought I read that they haven't in a long time. Guess not
Smalls reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:11 PM, CroakHunter said:California has had Florida strain Bass transplanted there.
The only place I’ve ever bass fished is here in the Midwest, so I’ve never had the chance to deal with many strains of bass. But do they differ THAT greatly? If so, how is it that these different strains can vary so greatly?
CroakHunter reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:30 PM, Smalls said:The only place I’ve ever bass fished is here in the Midwest, so I’ve never had the chance to deal with many strains of bass. But do they differ THAT greatly? If so, how is it that these different strains can vary so greatly?
I honestly don't know the details of it. But I know that Florida strain Bass we're moved there lots of years ago and they do grow faster and bigger. @WRB could probably enlighten everybody
Raul reply :
California doesn’t stock trout for bass to grow fat,California stocks trout for fishermen to catch them, bass feeding and growing big on trout was a happy consequence.
Gundog reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:11 PM, CroakHunter said:California has had Florida strain Bass transplanted there.
^^^ What he said. I'm sure water temps have something to do with this as well. Because bass are cold blooded colder water affects their feeding. The colder the water the less food bass need because they are less active.
Smalls reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:50 PM, Raul said:California doesn’t stock trout for bass to grow fat,California stocks trout for fishermen to catch them, bass feeding and growing big on trout was a happy consequence.
The optimist in me wants to believe it’s the other way around ????
MIbassyaker reply :
The biggest factors comparing MI to CA have nothing to do with trout. They are (1) California has FL strain bass while MI doesn't, and (2) California has a much longer growing season compared to MI, due to a warmer year-round climate.
The Michigan largemouth record --11.94# -- was taken from 200-acre Big Pine Island Lake in 1934, which is 40 min from my house. It is now a well-developed recreation-heavy lake, that gets a lot of traffic. I fish it sometimes; some decent bass in there now, but no chance there is another record largemouth there, or anywhere else in the area (and no trout in there either). The record was tied again in 1959 elsewhere, but not since. If you follow the master angler entries in MI each year, you will see nobody is coming anywhere near that weight. With modern-day population and fishing pressure, the largemouth record may not ever be broken.
On the other hand, the Michigan Smallmouth record has fallen twice all of a sudden in the couple years, after standing for over 100 years. If I were chasing records in MI, I'd be targeting smallies.
Smalls reply :
Well, like I said, I imagine there are plenty of other factors, trout is just the one that I see pop up constantly, so it seemed like the obvious one to mention.
But I suppose there’s an additional question within the question, or perhaps a clarification on the original. It’s obvious that we cannot grow bass like they do, but what are the leading factors. Is it the winter? Pressure? Certain strains just can’t?
I’m certainly not “targeting” a record, just a question that has irked me for some time, and something I haven’t been able to find any insight on.
Catt reply :
Genetics!
Not every bass is capable of reaching double digits regardless of how much or what ya feed it. California's big bass are caught & released keeping the gene pool in place. Other states were catching monster bass & having them mounted removing the gene pool.
burrows reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:23 PM, CroakHunter said:Yeah I typed that then realized they did. Thought I read that they haven't in a long time. Guess not
Yeah trout plants are going on rite now the state plants them every other week starting November till it warms up in march or April we have been getting plants from as far back as I can remember. There is a ton of trout fishermen out here in California.
Sam reply :
To answer your question: bass in California, Texas, Louisiana and Florida have a longer "growing season" where they grow larger.
You are correct when you say you have longer winters in your area than down south. Remember, water temperatures control the bass' behaviors, eating habits and growth rates.
So consider having some fun in the future and travel to Texas, Louisiana or Florida and catch some of those monster bass.
fishballer06 reply :
If you do some research, you'll see that a northern strain largemouth might take 8-10 years to reach 5 pounds. However, a Florida strain largemouth can grow to be 5 pounds (or more) in just 3-4 years.
Here's an interesting article that Bassmaster published.
https://www.bassmaster.com/news/big-old-bass
A few different clips from it for those who don't want to open the article
QuoteIn Florida, scientists used otoliths (ear bones) to determine that a 10-pound-plus largemouth was just 4 years old.
By contrast, an angler recently caught and released a 3.5-pound bass in Montana that was judged to be 19 years old, based on a tag inserted 14 years ago, when it weighed 1.5 pounds.
QuoteIn a Florida study, 822 trophy bass (10 pounds and up) given to taxidermists showed a mean age of 9.7 years. That’s a growth rate of about a pound a year. As previously mentioned, the youngest was just 4 years old, while the oldest, likely from the northern part of the state, was 16.5.
QuoteBut a 6.78-pound bass caught in New York’s Mariaville Lake still owns that honor. Back in 1992, biologists used otolith rings to determine that the fish was at least 23 years old, and it was in good condition, meaning that it could have lived longer.
And here's an interesting article I found on northern strain Largemouth.
https://fishinpedia.com/age-and-growth-of-largemouth-bass/
QuoteFor bass, there is usually a range of about four inches between the largest and smallest individuals of the same age, he says. That is, although the average three-year-old largemouth bass is 13.3 inches long, some will be as small as 11 inches and others as large as 15 inches. That’s why we can’t tell how old a fish is without examining the scales or other hard parts. A 15-inch bass might be an average four-year-old, a fast growing three-year-old or a slow growing five-year-old. A typical northern-strain five-pounder might be anywhere between six and 16 years old, McHugh reports.
WRB reply :
All species of black bass were transplanted in California came from somewhere else east of the Mississippi River.
Gaint LMB are a result of genes and only a small percent of female LMB grow to giant size. Do you think a 1/2 pound bass is feeding on 1 pound trout? Of course not, the bass must be an adult bass over 4 lbs to successfully eat a 1 pound trout. The giant bass starts it's faster growth out competing all it's year class and continues this faster growth it's entire life spawn. The eccosystem must be well balanced with a wide verity of pray available year around and warm water over 45 degrees year around.
If anyone believes feeding trout to bass will grow giant bass they are wrong, it's been tried several times and failed.
The Flotida strain LMB has the genetic base to grow larger faster then Northern strain LMB everything being equal. I believe FLMB eat planted trout because the trout look like a prey the FLMB is wired to hunt...golden shiners, a large narrow body baitfish. NLMB aren't wired to larger bair fish, the hunt and eat baitfish under 6" long. Like any bass a NLMB will strike big lures and larger bait fish, but that isn't the norm.
Tom
Catt reply :
@WRB ????
Texas ShareLunker research has proven beyond a shadow of doubt it's in the genetics.
Their research shows FLMB of 6-8 lbs 2-3 times older than FLMB of 13 lbs plus. This is why they collect & spawn 13 lb + bass. A 6 to 8 lb female will not produce 10 lb offspring regardless of what ya feed it.
Smalls reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 9:17 PM, Sam said:
So consider having some fun in the future and travel to Texas, Louisiana or Florida and catch some of those monster bass.
It’s on my short list for this year!
So naturally, the next question is... how would transplants of FLMB, with their genetics, fair in MI?
I wouldn’t expect them to reach such great weights here, but I imagine we might get a few more pounds out of some of them, no?
Team9nine reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 1:11 AM, Smalls said:It’s on my short list for this year!
So naturally, the next question is... how would transplants of FLMB, with their genetics, fair in MI?
I wouldn’t expect them to reach such great weights here, but I imagine we might get a few more pounds out of some of them, no?
No, most all will die out because they can't handle the prolonged cold water temps. The ones that do survive grow slower than their northern strain peers.
Hawkeye21 reply :
A diet of trout also adds to the growth of bass. Trout grow to larger sizes than other bait fish and are easier to eat because they do not have spiny fins. Since the trout grow larger they can get big enough so that the smaller bass can not eat them and the larger bass have a bigger meal. So basically the trout grow with the bass and offer a continual growing meal for them.
In bodies of water where the bait fish can only get to a certain size the larger bass have a harder time competing with the smaller and usually faster bass. This can somewhat stunt the size of bass. On top of that the colder temps and short growing season have major factor on bass in the midwest.
I believe the largest bass caught in Iowa is just over 10lbs. and that was a very, very long time ago. Anything over 3 pounds in Iowa would be considered a big bass. My personal best is just under 5 pounds caught on the Mississippi River.
On 1/16/2018 at 12:49 AM, Catt said:@WRB ????
Texas ShareLunker research has proven beyond a shadow of doubt it's in the genetics.
Their research shows FLMB of 6-8 lbs 2-3 times older than FLMB of 13 lbs plus. This is why they collect & spawn 13 lb + bass. A 6 to 8 lb female will not produce 10 lb offspring regardless of what ya feed it.
That can't be entirely true? If that were the case then how did a 13lb bass ever come to be? At some point certain bass had to grow bigger than their parents. I would think that two smaller bass could carry the trait of a larger bass.
Wouldn't it be similar to two 5'11" parents having a son that grew to be 6'8"? Not likely but can happen.
geo g reply :
Not only do they have Florida Strain bass transplanted, but aquarium conditions, catch and release only rules, spoon fed trout that were farm raised with no fear of predictors, and offered up for sacrifice several times a year. Put this all together and you can see why bass get big.
But I have heard they may stop the feeding process, reductions in water quality from run-off. Things may be changing!!!
WRB reply :
What Catt is saying is true regarding LMB growing to be giant bass, Florida strain can grow to over 50% heavier then Northern strain LMB.
Examples; California record LMB before Florida LMB were introduced in 1959 was 14 lbs 7 oz. After the FLMB became established that record started falling in 1965 and today the official record is 21 lbs 15 oz, unaffical is 25 lbs 1 oz. Lake Hodges produced a 20 lb 4 oz FLMB , lake record, without any trout as prey! Upper Otay lake where the FLMB were raised before releasing into San Diego city lakes didn't have any trout for prey.
The clearest example is lake Casitas that had a rainbow trout planting program since 1958 long before Florida strain LMB were introduced in 1971 as young adult size bass. I caught my northern strain LMB at Casitas in Feb 1971 @ 12 lbs 4 oz, 10 years later after the FLMB were introduced I caught a 18 lb 11 oz (18.6) FLMB, same lake with the same prey sources, the same year lake Casitas produced a 21lb 3 oz FLMB. The only difference is Florida LMB genetics, not the trout prey source.
Planted trout become a preferred prey source for FLMB after the big females have already grown big enough to hunt and catch them for food and trout occupy a different part of any lakes eccosystem, they are pelagic fish and bass tend to be dermasel fish that adapt to feeding off shore, mostly because of Threadfin Shad that move off shore, the bass follow the prey source.
45 degrees seems to be the lower limit water temp for pure Florida strain LMB and fact limits their distribution.
Tom
Catt reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 1:32 AM, Hawkeye21 said:Can't be entirely true? If that were the case then how did a 13lb bass ever come to be? At some point certain bass had to grow bigger than their parents. I would think that two smaller bass could carry the trait of a larger bass.
Wouldn't it be similar to two 5'11" parents having a son that grew to be 6'8"? Not likely but can happen.
Absolutely true!
If it were not wouldn't it stand to reason the would be a higher percentage bass in the double digit class?
As for the 6' 8" son we would have to look beyond the 5' 11" parents.
Look at Tiger/Gorilla/F1 bass, research showed a 14 lb bass that was only 7 yrs old, it never eat trout!
There are numerous research conducted trying to raise world record bass & food source at it.
12poundbass reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 3:57 PM, MIbassyaker said:The biggest factors comparing MI to CA have nothing to do with trout. They are (1) California has FL strain bass while MI doesn't, and (2) California has a much longer growing season compared to MI, due to a warmer year-round climate.
The Michigan largemouth record --11.94# -- was taken from 200-acre Big Pine Island Lake in 1934, which is 40 min from my house. It is now a well-developed recreation-heavy lake, that gets a lot of traffic. I fish it sometimes; some decent bass in there now, but no chance there is another record largemouth there, or anywhere else in the area (and no trout in there either). The record was tied again in 1959 elsewhere, but not since. If you follow the master angler entries in MI each year, you will see nobody is coming anywhere near that weight. With modern-day population and fishing pressure, the largemouth record may not ever be broken.
On the other hand, the Michigan Smallmouth record has fallen twice all of a sudden in the couple years, after standing for over 100 years. If I were chasing records in MI, I'd be targeting smallies.
I doubt that our LMB record will ever be broken but there's that chance (hence my screen name).
There's a lake north of Big Pine which as you've mentioned is where the current record came from. In this lake about 12 years years ago my wife's uncle said the DNR shocked the lake and there was a new state record in there. Fast forward about 8 years and I was at the county park of this lake doing a job and I spoke to the Ranger and he said that he had heard the same story except that it came out of the lakes little brother just north but the two were connected. The DNR officer in my area has said he's heard the same thing. My son and his daughter are in the same class so I'm going to make it a point to cross paths with him and "interrogate" him. Lol
Obviously genetics play a huge role in size, but so does what we eat and our environment also play a role. Anybody ever sat in a classic car from the 30's 40' s 50's? People were smaller then. Over time we've grown A ton, genetics play A role, but our ever changing environment play A role too. A wise man on here told me his PB LMB from Michigan was 7 lbs and came from a lake that was stocked with trout. 7 pounds in Michigan is a giant. That's about the same as an 11-12lb down south. Coincidence?
MIbassyaker reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 2:47 AM, 12poundbass said:I doubt that our LMB record will ever be broken but there's that chance (hence my screen name).
There's a lake north of Big Pine which as you've mentioned is where the current record came from. In this lake about 12 years years ago my wife's uncle said the DNR shocked the lake and there was a new state record in there. Fast forward about 8 years and I was at the county park of this lake doing a job and I spoke to the Ranger and he said that he had heard the same story except that it came out of the lakes little brother just north but the two were connected. The DNR officer in my area has said he's heard the same thing. My son and his daughter are in the same class so I'm going to make it a point to cross paths with him and "interrogate" him. Lol
Obviously genetics play a huge role in size, but so does what we eat and our environment also play a role. Anybody ever sat in a classic car from the 30's 40' s 50's? People were smaller then. Over time we've grown A ton, genetics play A role, but our ever changing environment play A role too. A wise man on here told me his PB LMB from Michigan was 7 lbs and came from a lake that was stocked with trout. 7 pounds in Michigan is a giant. That's about the same as an 11-12lb down south. Coincidence?
I believe I know the "little brother" you're talking about, and if it's what I'm thinking, I have fished it a couple times a summer for the last few years -- I've not ever seen another person on it when I have been there, so I've been...um, keeping quiet about it.
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 4:03 AM, MIbassyaker said:I believe I know the "little brother" you're talking about, and if it's what I'm thinking, I have fished it a couple times a summer for the last few years -- I've not ever seen another person on it when I have been there, so I've been...um, keeping quiet about it.
PM inbound
fishnkamp reply :
It was Trout Unlimited in California that helped got the trout stocking restarted in certain lakes that had supported the fishery years ago.
Pay attention to the records falling many of those BIG bass records lately are Alabama strain Kentucky Spots. Those fish are hybrids and really grow fast under the right conditions. My PB is just over 7, caught in Tennessee. It is ababy compared to the ones caught out in Cali.
Catt reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 2:47 AM, 12poundbass said:Anybody ever sat in a classic car from the 30's 40' s 50's? People were smaller then.
Funniest thing I've even read ????
I was born in 1951!
People were not smaller!
Cars from the 40s - 70s were huge inside & out!
WRB reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 5:35 AM, fishnkamp said:It was Trout Unlimited in California that helped got the trout stocking restarted in certain lakes that had supported the fishery years ago.
Pay attention to the records falling many of those BIG bass records lately are Alabama strain Kentucky Spots. Those fish are hybrids and really grow fast under the right conditions. My PB is just over 7, caught in Tennessee. It is ababy compared to the ones caught out in Cali.
The big spotted bass are Alabama /Southern spots not a hybrid, Kentucky /Northern Spots are a separate recognized specie of Black bass that rarely grow over 4 lbs. in 1939 Kentucky Spotted bass were introduced to California at Fraint Dam/ lake Millerton in Central CA, never weighing over 2 lbs. Alabama Spotted bass were introduced in the 60's at Lake Perris in SoCal and the 1st record CA Spot caught there. Alabama Spots were then introduced in the 70's to several CA lakes, the next record came from Pine Flat lake on the Kings River in central CA. Bullards Bar in NorCal currently holds the world record Spotted bass, several other NorCal foothill lakes have potential record Spots.
Tom
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 5:55 AM, Catt said:Funniest thing I've even read ????
I was born in 1951!
People were not smaller!
Cars from the 40s - 70s were huge inside & out!
Average height of a male in 1870 was 5'5" and increased to 5'10" by 1970 where it has stalled out.
You're right the cars from the 50's were some of the biggest, my apologies for being off on my decades. The distance between the steering wheel and seat has increased as humans got bigger. If you watch the Barret Jackson auto auction starting tomorrow you'll hear them say that a ton over the next week.
Maybe it was between the 1900's and 1940's ????
WRB reply :
If bass are getting bigger how do you explain the Perry 32" 22 1/4 lb world record caught in 1932 if everything was smaller back in those days.
Tom
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 8:20 AM, WRB said:If bass are getting bigger how do you explain the Perry 32" 22 1/4 lb world record caught in 1932 if everything was smaller back in those days.
Tom
If you're referring to my comment, I think you might have misinterpreted what I said. I'm not implying bass are getting bigger. What I was implying is that it's not just genetics that determine the size (in my opinion anyways). Genetics is the main factor yes but (again in my opinion) diet and environment play a factor as well.
geo g reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 8:20 AM, WRB said:If bass are getting bigger how do you explain the Perry 32" 22 1/4 lb world record caught in 1932 if everything was smaller back in those days.
Tom
It was most likely not even a Florida Stain Bass since they are not naturally found that far north, and in 1932 no one was transporting bass. If they caught it they killed it!
WRB reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 8:45 AM, geo g said:It was most likely not even a Florida Stain Bass since they are not naturally found that far north, and in 1932 no one was transporting bass. If they caught it they killed it!
Dr Henshaw transported bass from Minnisota to Arizona in 1890 by rail and wagons to introduce Black bass west of the Rocky Mountains. Anglers have been transporting fish from one place to another for centuries. So do you believe the Perry bass was a northern strain?
Tom
On 1/16/2018 at 8:41 AM, 12poundbass said:If you're referring to my comment, I think you might have misinterpreted what I said. I'm not implying bass are getting bigger. What I was implying is that it's not just genetics that determine the size (in my opinion anyways). Genetics is the main factor yes but (again in my opinion) diet and environment play a factor as well.
So explain to me California's state record northern LMB from transplanted from Minnisota and was 14 lbs 7 oz caught in 1947. The record stood until Florida strain LMB were introduced in 1959 and 15 lb bass started showing up in 1968 increasing every size year until 1973 when they topped 20 lbs. Same lakes with the same ecosystems, same prey source, same climate that could only produce NLMB in the 12 lb class.
It's all about genetics.
Tom
geo g reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:11 AM, WRB said:Dr Henshaw transported bass from Minnisota to Arizona in 1890 by rail and wagons to introduce Black bass west of the Rocky Mountains. Anglers have been transporting fish from one place to another for centuries. So do you believe the Perry bass was a northern strain?
Tom
There is no way to tell for sure, but its at least a 50/50 shot its not a Florida Strain.
WRB reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:20 AM, geo g said:There is no way to tell for sure, but its at least a 50/50 shot its not a Florida Strain.
The Perry is 6 lbs heavier then any northern strain LMB ever caught. 16 lbs 4 oz is the largest known northern state record NLMB, it's a Florida strain or it doesn't exist.
Tom
burrows reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 5:55 AM, Catt said:Funniest thing I've even read ????
I was born in 1951!
People were not smaller!
Cars from the 40s - 70s were huge inside & out!
Ppl were not smaller they were not as fat. I think that's a fact.
geo g reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:45 AM, WRB said:The Perry is 6 lbs heavier then any northern strain LMB ever caught. 16 lbs 4 oz is the largest known northern state record NLMB, it's a Florida strain or it doesn't exist.
Tom
You have obviously never heard of a 7'6" Chinese basketball player. Never say never my friend!
geo g reply :
There have been giants all throughout history, as far back as ancient biblical times, in all life forms. It just happens, although rare.
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:11 AM, WRB said:Dr Henshaw transported bass from Minnisota to Arizona in 1890 by rail and wagons to introduce Black bass west of the Rocky Mountains. Anglers have been transporting fish from one place to another for centuries. So do you believe the Perry bass was a northern strain?
Tom
So explain to me California's state record northern LMB from transplanted from Minnisota and was 14 lbs 7 oz caught in 1947. The record stood until Florida strain LMB were introduced in 1959 and 15 lb bass started showing up in 1968 increasing every size year until 1973 when they topped 20 lbs. Same lakes with the same ecosystems, same prey source, same climate that could only produce NLMB in the 12 lb class.
It's all about genetics.
Tom
If it's all genetics then why are we seeing these smallmouth bass that look like they've swallowed a bowling ball, what seems like more frequently since the gobie came around? The world record hasn't been broken and to my knowledge is a pretty old record as well. But it seems like the addition of a new food source has changed things a bit in certain areas.
Another example is LaPerla ranch in Texas with Dr. Gary from Techomonte. He selected the fresh water lobster (I believe) to help these bass put on weight quicker. Obviously genetics and selective breeding, habitat and location (environment) play a role as well. Dr. Gary has made a name for himself producing some of the biggest bucks on the planet. He's done this by taking the biggest bucks (genetics) selectively breeding them, and by giving them the best minerals and feed (diet) and the best land with the least amount of pressure, stress, and predation possible (environment).
Again I don't argue that genetics plays a major role in fact I'll take a shot in the dark and say it plays well over 80%. I'm not a smart man but I have enough brain to know that without good genes you won't develop much. On the flip side you can have the best genes, but if you have a poor diet will little protein or fat chances dwindle for producing a world record bass. Just like if you take a lake (environment) that is over populated, not the best water, and many other factors you chances for producing a world record bass does it not?
Again I'm no expert and I'm going by what I've read over the years.
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 10:17 AM, Burro said:Ppl were not smaller they were not as fat. I think that's a fact.
People were in fact smaller. The average height of humans continued to grow until it topped out in the 1970's. Like I said before between 1870 and 1970 the average height of a human male grew 5 inches. That's quite a bit.
@WRB @Catt maybe you guys are thinking I'm implying that you can grow a world record bass from a Northern strain? I don't think it's possible at all. I don't deny for one second the genetics from a Florida strain LMB produce much bigger fish.
Catt reply :
@12poundbass
The food source without genetics will definitely fatten bass but it max out. Only an extremely small percentage with reach into the "teens" & a smaller percentage will reach the upper teens.
The bass in Lake X at the LaPerla ranch were feed prawns (a type of shrimp).
Do some research into Gorilla/Tiger/F1 bass, they had bass reach 14 lbs in 7 years feeding them only bluegill.
MTBassin reply :
I just watched a video on the TacticalBassin YT channel and Matt Allen said that the main lake he fishes in California (Clear Lake) in California has very very few trout in it. It's not so much that the bass are keying in on those big swimbaits because they want to eat a trout and that they are used to trout as a food source. Its more because it is a big slow moving bait that just happens to be painted in a color pattern that catches their attention and looks like an easy meal.
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:39 PM, Catt said:@12poundbass
The food source without genetics will definitely fatten bass but it max out. Only an extremely small percentage with reach into the "teens" & a smaller percentage will reach the upper teens.
The bass in Lake X at the LaPerla ranch were feed prawns (a type of shrimp).
Do some research into Gorilla/Tiger/F1 bass, they had bass reach 14 lbs in 7 years feeding them only bluegill.
I agree that poor genetics and perfect food will only get you so far. Just like if you had the perfect environment and food source and poor genes you're only going to get so far. If you add perfect genes, perfect food source, and perfect environment you greatly increase your odds of producing a truly gigantic bass.
If environment didn't play a role in the size of a bass then I could quite possibly take a gorilla/tiger/F1 and put up here in Michigan and potentially grow a world record bass correct?
I've seen you mention these bass a few times now. You've peaked my interest and I will for sure look these up.
BassNJake reply :
Whats interesting is the hybrids that are a cross between florida and northern strains that are being caught.
http://nooga.com/164697/twra-reveals-chickamauga-lake-bass-dna-analysis/
These are the giants that are being caught at Chickamauga.
Shock studies and tourney testing is showing that only hybrids and backcrosses are being caught and no pure florida strain.
So it may be possible that if these hybrids get introduced into northern waters those fish may also grow bigger.
In the 2012 lakewide DNA analysis, biologists found 7.8 percent northern bass, 2.3 percent Florida bass, 15 percent hybrids and 75 percent backcross. That means 92 percent of all the bass in Chickamauga Lake carry at least some Florida bass genes.
In 2013, when Jolley and his crew collected DNA samples exclusively from bass weighing more than 8 pounds, they found no pure northern bass and no pure Florida bass. However, 75 percent of the big bass were hybrids, and 25 percent were backcross.
Team9nine reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 10:11 PM, BassNJake said:Whats interesting is the hybrids that are a cross between florida and northern strains that are being caught.
http://nooga.com/164697/twra-reveals-chickamauga-lake-bass-dna-analysis/
These are the giants that are being caught at Chickamauga.
Shock studies and tourney testing is showing that only hybrids and backcrosses are being caught and no pure florida strain.
So it may be possible that if these hybrids get introduced into northern waters those fish may also grow bigger.
It's referred to as "hybrid vigor" or more technically as heterosis.
Here's a good overview on this whole big bass variables subject written recently by Steve Quinn:
http://www.in-fisherman.com/bass/factors-giant-bass/
J Francho reply :
Hybrid vigor..good term, T9! We would see this in live bearer crosses and in egg laying danios.
deep reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:46 PM, MTBassin said:I just watched a video on the TacticalBassin YT channel and Matt Allen said that the main lake he fishes in California (Clear Lake) in California has very very few trout in it. It's not so much that the bass are keying in on those big swimbaits because they want to eat a trout and that they are used to trout as a food source. Its more because it is a big slow moving bait that just happens to be painted in a color pattern that catches their attention and looks like an easy meal.
Clear lake has hitch.
Fishingmickey reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 1:11 AM, Smalls said:It’s on my short list for this year!
So naturally, the next question is... how would transplants of FLMB, with their genetics, fair in MI?
I wouldn’t expect them to reach such great weights here, but I imagine we might get a few more pounds out of some of them, no?
Smalls,
They just don't have the growing season in Michigan that they have in Florida, California or Texas. The Florida strain largemouth is the other side of the coin. It will not fair well in Michigan.
FM
WRB reply :
I mentioned my PB northern strain LMB is 12 lbs 4 oz that has genes from LMB transplanted from Minnesota, no FLMB genes. Could this 12 lb bass grow that big on MN ?
Yes, if the lived in a steam generating power plant lake that kept the water warm enough to feed and grow year around. Several states with only NLMB gave records 12 to 16 lbs.
It wasn’t known that Florida strain LMB would grow to giant size until California proved it.
Tom
12poundbass reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 1:51 AM, WRB said:I mentioned my PB northern strain LMB is 12 lbs 4 oz that has genes from LMB transplanted from Minnesota, no FLMB genes. Could this 12 lb bass grow that big on MN ?
Yes, if the lived in a steam generating power plant lake that kept the water warm enough to feed and grow year around. Several states with only NLMB gave records 12 to 16 lbs.
It wasn’t known that Florida strain LMB would grow to giant size until California proved it.
Tom
So then we agree that environment can and will play a role in determining size?
WRB reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 3:34 AM, 12poundbass said:So then we agree that environment can and will play a role in determining size?
Yes the environment plays a big role on the eccosystem, it allows animals, including fish, to thrive or starve depending on if it's positive or a negative influence. Everything being equal genetics play a major role for Black bass to attain maximum record weights.
Smallmouth may never attain growth over 12 lbs do to it's genes, Northern strain LMB may never exceed 17 lbs do to thier genes, we know FLMB can achieve 25 lbs because of thier genes and optimal eccosystem.
Regarding Goerge Perry's 22 1/4 lb world record LMB caught in 1932 there has never been a photo found of George holding his bass, no proof of this catch and everything has been taken on his word. The eccosystem of a small oxbow isolated lake simply doesn't have the prey source to grow a giant bass. It is what it is an long time established record that has now been exceeded by a FLMB that has gone through close examination with lots of proof of it's weight authenticed.
Tom
12poundbass reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:11 AM, WRB said:It's all about genetics.
I'm glad we can agree now because your comments yesterday left me scrathing my head.
J Francho reply :
Genetics, food source, environment, which includes water quality. A long growing season sure helps too.
Glenn reply :
How do bass become trophy size? How long do bass live? Does keeping a big bass harm the fishery? Can 100% catch and release be worse than keeping a few? Can bass spawn more than once per year? These questions and more are answered by the nation's top warmwater lake manager, Bob Lusk, in this video.
Paul Roberts reply :
Great stuff above. Genetics, food, growing season, and age all play roles. FOOD may be the one least understood or, better, appreciated for the sheer amount and quality of it required. The amount of food of the right composition and size required to grow small fish into huge fish is almost mind-boggling. And it's something that is extremely rare in nature, and darn hard to accomplish in managed waters.
Growing season plays an enormous role not only in the the duration of growth periods for bass but, more importantly, in the sheer amount of prey fishes a given water can produce. Southern waters commonly produce multiple broods of prey fishes, while northern waters rarely do. All are important but the best genetics, clean water, and age structure will go nowhere without one heck of a lot of food of the right composition and size for bass from fingerling through... monster.
As to the genetics part, genes are potential, heavily influenced by the environment. There's a point in every fish's life where they must "choose" whether to chase pounds or gametes. All choose both, however, the environment makes that choice for them. A dead bass does not contribute to the future. If there is not enough appropriate food to go around, bass will mature -start developing costly gametes- at 10" in length, and still "win the game".
BassObsessed reply :
I agree that there are many variables that need to happen . It may be covered in the video , haven't watched it yet, that big bass need crazy amounts of food just to maintain let alone grow. 10lbs of forage for 1 lb of weight gain is some theories Iv'e heard. I manage a small pond and know how much forage I need to make sure is available to try to grow big bass. Another private pond I fish is loaded with 1lbers. It wrote the book on stunted bass. 10 acres and depths up to 30ft with super clear water which is great but the forage ratio is out of whack.
geo g reply :
I agree with everything said in the previous post, for the normal bass population. But all throughout time, there have been isolated freaks of nature, that don't follow the normal standards set forth by the normal population. This is something that occurs from malfunctioning glands in the body. Humans and every other living organism have been subject to abnormal giant syndrome. The Perry bass could be an example of this condition, and most likely a northern strain gone supersized. This is something not found in the normal population, but a rare malfunction. I happens in humans, and all other living organisms. It is very rare, and the Perry fish could very well be a product of this condition. It was not caused by genes, food supply, environment or any other factor other then a hyperactive bodily function found only in these freaks of nature. That is why we have 7'6" Chinese basketball players, 7' women conceived from normal size parents, Bears that almost double the normal adult size and weight, ancient human skeleton that are way off the charts. It is a something that is rare, but happens. The Perry bass is probably a northern freak of nature, and that's why the record stood as long as it did.
Now can scientists and biologists recreate fish the size of this record freak. The answer is yes, and have been doing it for years, by transporting genetic big fish, like Florida bass. Feeding them a rick food supply of farm raised fish, that have no natural fear of predatory bass, and putting them in a restricted catch and release environment. These immigrant imports will grow to record size. Is this normal, NO. Can science do more to stimulate growth YES, but is this normal NO!
The Perry fish was not a transport, was not a Florida Strain, was not spoon feed trout or crayfish, and was out there making a living for its own, with no help from science or anything else. If it was anything, it was a freak of nature, and nothing else! It was a legit record fish, all others are simply engineered!
J Francho reply :
I don't believe the Perry fish was that big. Every record fish is a freak of nature, and there is some mitigating set of circumstances, or perfect storm for the fish to get huge. Triploid rainbow trout dwarfing western sea run steelhead is just one example.
Turtle135 reply :
I believe there are Florida Strain largemouth in Georgia. There was well documented 17.60 pound largemouth caught in 2015 and back in 1987 there was an 18 pound 1 ounce bass.
Below is the Georgia Top 10 that I can find on the internet. Considering the sizes I would expect these bass have Florida Strain genes.
Catt reply :
What is being missed about the Perry bass is that it was 1932!!!!!
How many cameras existed in 1932 in a small rural community?
My father-in-law was a professional photographer in the 40-60s & in his opinion there might have been 1 maybe 2.
The bass was weighed but not on certified scales, in 1932 in rural Georgia what or who would require anyone to certify anything?
It is said that Montgomery lake could not support a fish of that size but what biologist was present in 1932 made that evaluation?
Having grown up during the 50s in rural Louisiana I can guarantee y'all it would very hard certifying any to the degree anglers have asked of the Perry bass.
geo g reply :
Florida Strain bass are not found that far north naturally. FWC said no fish were exported until 1955 well after Perry's fish was caught. Perry fish was big, and a freak of nature. Freaks of nature happen and are rare in all life forms. In recent years it is impossible to tell where people have taken the greatest bass population, The Florida Strain. But not in 1932!!!!!! That fish was a freak and always will be the greatest naturally occurring fish caught without human interference.
gimruis reply :
Earlier in this thread, someone brought up trout as a food source. Trouts are indeed a high fat and protein diet, so predatory game fish eating them regularly will get more out of it than eating something else. The same has been documented up here in the north with lakes that have ciscoes/tulibees and muskies.
WRB reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 7:00 AM, Catt said:What is being missed about the Perry bass is that it was 1932!!!!!
How many cameras existed in 1932 in a small rural community?
My father-in-law was a professional photographer in the 40-60s & in his opinion there might have been 1 maybe 2.
The bass was weighed but not on certified scales, in 1932 in rural Georgia what or who would require anyone to certify anything?
It is said that Montgomery lake could not support a fish of that size but what biologist was present in 1932 made that evaluation?
Having grown up during the 50s in rural Louisiana I can guarantee y'all it would very hard certifying any to the degree anglers have asked of the Perry bass.
Catt, Perry said he had a photo of his bass and sent a photo to Field & Stream magazine bass contest along with the weight recorded on a 100 lb postal scale along with length and girth measurements. The IGFA didn't have fresh water world records for bass until 1951 and grandfathered the Perry bass as the world record based on the Field & Stream 1932 contest winner George Perry. Perry wasn't looking for recognition, he just wanted to win fishing tackle and avoided talking about his catch. Perry did an interview with B.A.S.S. before he died in a plane crash. Just have to accept the catch on face value, it has been the standard until 2009, there isn't any doubt about the Kurita world record 22.31 lbs bass from Japan. If Dottie wasn't snagged the world record would 25.1 lbs from California.
Tom
Turtle135 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 7:55 AM, geo g said:Florida Strain bass are not found that far north naturally. FWC said no fish were exported until 1955 well after Perry's fish was caught.
IMHO we call them "Florida Strain" but those genetics know no state boundaries. If my intel is correct the panhandle of Florida is where the true monsters thrive. Further south in FL the waters are too hot. The bass grow at a rapid rate but die young. Northern Florida, Southern Alabama and Southern Georgia are the original land of the giants.
bigbill reply :
It’s been said that Perry caught a second bigger bass after the record breaker and they ate it.
my PB of 10lbs isn’t a freak, I’ve seen and lost bigger bass. One hot spot is fed from a big lake it gets the run off. It’s a man made dam that captures the run off and fish. It’s a very healthy eco system. Farther down stream is another dam and a larger body of water.
its not the smaller bass that are keeping the bass population numbers up.
the local game wardens with there electric shock boat can only operate in 25/30 feet of water so there not seeing these bigger gals.
i say we have bigger bass in every body of water, there not being caught.
from shore I’m so stealthy it’s like I’m not there. Walk lightly, make no noise, close the car door quietly, handle your tackle so there’s no noise. I use a spinning reel so there’s no click when the baitcaster spool locks in after a cast. I open and close the spinning reel nail by hand softly. No noise, do not talk to yourself, keep your one battery flashlight in the roof of your tacklebox. Do not let the glare hit the water. If you practice all of this it will become second nature. Being stealthy is the key to catching a bigger gal near the shoreline.
if you flash the light in the water near the shoreline you will see freshwater eels. I think this is what the bass are after. They are a dark brownish color.
i mentioned bigger bass on a ct website and got slammed for it. All of a sudden some members started catching 9 to 11lb bass. Trust me they are out there.
the bass aren’t native to out area. Years ago we had a bass hatchery. The hatchery is shut down but some bass are still there. My point is I’m not sure what strain of bass they used.
what scares me is I see freshwater otters at twilit before dawn everywhere I fish. I can picture in my mind an otter eating a new state record.
geo g reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, Turtle135 said:IMHO we call them "Florida Strain" but those genetics know no state boundaries. If my intel is correct the panhandle of Florida is where the true monsters thrive. Further south in FL the waters are too hot. The bass grow at a rapid rate but die young. Northern Florida, Southern Alabama and Southern Georgia are the original land of the giants.
I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass. Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.
WRB reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 11:54 AM, geo g said:I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass. Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.
Larry Bothroff is was my primary source of information and he is the fishery biologist who managed the Diego City Florida bass program that Orville Ball initiated from 1959 to 1999 when he retired.
The pure Florida strain LMB transported to California were from Cypress Garden Springs area of central Florida, not northern Florida.
If you are so knowledgeable go out and catch a few giant bass, my bench mark is 15 lbs and to date I have caught 58 over a 45 year period of catching and studying these special rare bass.
Tom
OCdockskipper reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 7:55 AM, geo g said:...Freaks of nature happen and are rare in all life forms...
I would suggest that Dottie was one of those freaks. Not only did she attain a weight over 10% larger than any other LMB ever caught, she did it even though she was caught multiple times. She shook off the stress of being landed as a giant multiple times and continued to grow.
Obviously, Dotties genetics are still in Lake Dixon, yet another 20 lb fish has not been caught there. She had the genetics to get to 25 lbs, but may have only made it that big due to being a freak.
Turtle135 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 11:54 AM, geo g said:I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass. Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.
back to the concept of "Hybrid Vigor"...
"Florida Largemouth Bass distribution was supposedly restricted to systems south of the Suwannee River in the Florida peninsula, with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia. Due to their trophy value, Florida Bass and their hybrids with Largemouth Bass have been introduced throughout the Southern United States extending through most States from Florida to California. Also introduced to every continent except Antarctica! Relatively long lived, ranging from 10-16 years old. Growth rates do vary with trophic state and habitat (vegetation). Florida’s state record is 17.25lbs but a 20+lb fish has been documented and a 22.25lb individual was caught in Japan in 2009."
geo g reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:19 PM, Turtle135 said:back to the concept of "Hybrid Vigor"...
"Florida Largemouth Bass distribution was supposedly restricted to systems south of the Suwannee River in the Florida peninsula, with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia. Due to their trophy value, Florida Bass and their hybrids with Largemouth Bass have been introduced throughout the Southern United States extending through most States from Florida to California. Also introduced to every continent except Antarctica! Relatively long lived, ranging from 10-16 years old. Growth rates do vary with trophic state and habitat (vegetation). Florida’s state record is 17.25lbs but a 20+lb fish has been documented and a 22.25lb individual was caught in Japan in 2009."
I agree with everything said in that post. Perry fish was caught in 1932 and no Florida Strain there then. The movement of Florida Strain began in 1955 according to FWC. Florida strain are not native to Georgia.
Turtle135 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:24 PM, geo g said:I agree with everything said in that post. Perry fish was caught in 1932 and no Florida Strain there then. The movement of Florida Strain began in 1955 according to FWC. Florida strain are not native to Georgia.
with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia
geo g reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:13 PM, WRB said:Larry Bothroff is was my primary source of information and he is the fishery biologist who managed the Diego City Florida bass program that Orville Ball initiated from 1959 to 1999 when he retired.
The pure Florida strain LMB transported to California were from Cypress Garden Springs area of central Florida, not northern Florida.
If you are so knowledgeable go out and catch a few giant bass, my bench mark is 15 lbs and to date I have caught 58 over a 45 year period of catching and studying these special rare bass.
Tom
The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case. No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.
Turtle135 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:30 PM, geo g said:The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case. No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.
so you believe that Perry's fish was a pure Northern Strain Largemouth (or that Perry's fish was a fabrication)?
geo g reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:27 PM, Turtle135 said:with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia
No, not without man's help. 150 mile separation. After 1955 they could be anywhere they can survive the environment.
On 1/17/2018 at 12:34 PM, Turtle135 said:so you believe that Perry's fish was a pure Northern Strain Largemouth (or that Perry's fish was a fabrication)?
I have already clearly explained my position on Perry's bass!
bigbill reply :
You talk about trout being on the diet of bass. There’s a small upper lake that’s stocked well with trout. But I don’t see many trout being caught. One day I seen a big swirl in the water made by a big fish turning. My guess is it’s a great northern pike. The stream that feeds this lake is connected to a lake that has great northern pike in it. This pike is eating most of the trout. No one has any clue what’s going on. Lol.
Catt reply :
There's a lot of talk going on assuming where there was or wasn't Florida Strain Largemouth bass in 1932.
@WRB back in the 50s & even into the 60s I remember my dad & uncles who were contractors building homes on nothing but a hand shack, no contract, no team of lawyers. A person's word was binding in a court of law...not so much today!
No one from Perry's community or Field & Stream has ever given any indication fraud.
As for Dottie her genetics are there but that doesn't mean her offspring with attain 25 lbs.
WRB reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:30 PM, geo g said:The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case. No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.
Just one more factor that points to the Perry may have never existed. Anglers move fish around all the time that don't get recorded, no way to know when pure FLMB have been transplanted. None of my bass exceeded 28 1/2" long. The Kurita bass from Japan 22.31 lbs was 29" long, Dottie the Dixon bass from So Cal weighed 25.1 lbs the last time shell caught and 29" long. Perry's bass was reported to be 32" long, however know one knows how the measurements were made or what was used.
You could go to Perry's lake but it's been a meadow for over 30 years, happens to shallow oxbow lakes without a water source, not a eccosystem that could grow a giant bass.
Tom
WRB reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 1:42 PM, Catt said:There's a lot of talk going on assuming where there was or wasn't Florida Strain Largemouth bass in 1932.
@WRB back in the 50s & even into the 60s I remember my dad & uncles who were contractors building homes on nothing but a hand shack, no contract, no team of lawyers. A person's word was binding in a court of law...not so much today!
No one from Perry's community or Field & Stream has ever given any indication fraud.
As for Dottie her genetics are there but that doesn't mean her offspring with attain 25 lbs.
I don't believe submitting a form for a fishing magazine contest to win a few lures as fraud. Perry had no way of knowing his catch submitted would become listed nearly 20 years later as the world record LMB. Perry avoid being interviewed and never tried to exploit the fact he was a world record holder of one the most prestigious fish.
The only thing most folks had during the Great Depression was thier word and everyone says George Perry was an honest man. Was Perry's bass an exaggeration? We way never know.
Tom
Catt reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 2:03 PM, WRB said:Perry's bass was reported to be 32" long, however know one knows how the measurements were made or what was used.
J Francho reply :
I just want to comment on the no bass leaving Florida (or anywhere else, for that matter) is totally untrue. We've been transplanting fish since the 1800's. Just because it wasn't a government body conducting the activity doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do a little research, and you can find photos depicting fish being shipped alive via rail in milk barrels. It's entirely possible FLMB were transplanted by 1932.
Hawkeye21 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 12:39 PM, bigbill said:You talk about trout being on the diet of bass. There’s a small upper lake that’s stocked well with trout. But I don’t see many trout being caught. One day I seen a big swirl in the water made by a big fish turning. My guess is it’s a great northern pike. The stream that feeds this lake is connected to a lake that has great northern pike in it. This pike is eating most of the trout. No one has any clue what’s going on. Lol.
One of the big differences between having a bass lake stocked with trout in northern states compared to southern states it that the weather has a big affect. Trout prefer cold water and are more active in it that bass. When the weather gets cold in the north the bass slow down but the trout do not. This affects the growth of bass. In the south the water stays warm all year and trout are slower in warm water while bass are more aggressive. Eating trout is much easier for bass in warmer water.
A diet of trout is not the key factor is growing large bass but can be a part of it. Climate is a big factor and like it has been said before, genetics is important.
TnRiver46 reply :
On 1/17/2018 at 5:49 AM, Turtle135 said:I believe there are Florida Strain largemouth in Georgia. There was well documented 17.60 pound largemouth caught in 2015 and back in 1987 there was an 18 pound 1 ounce bass.
Below is the Georgia Top 10 that I can find on the internet. Considering the sizes I would expect these bass have Florida Strain genes.
16 lbs in chatuge??? Wow
geo g reply :
The information came from the FWC no Florida Strain exports until 1955, whether you want to believe it or not!
J Francho reply :
The FWC wans't formed until 1999. Dig a little deeper. We've been transplanting fish for 200 years. How would they know who privately moved what species? No one even recognized "Florida Strain" bass until relatively recently. Do a little research, it's fairly well documented.
Here's an official US government project. 1873. So, anyone stiull think fish weren't moved before that?
QuoteBy the early 1920s, fish cars had distributed 72,281,380,861 fish by traveling 2,029,416 miles and their detached messengers traveled an additional 8,104,799 miles.
https://www.fws.gov/dcbooth/fishcars.htm
Catt reply :
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://fishlab.nres.illinois.edu/Reprints/Long_et_al_History_Bass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYmdKDz9_YAhVNRqwKHUGEA2UQFjAAegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw2L_5yKBOES-5VzOy9m_dv4
Turtle135 reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 2:24 AM, Catt said:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://fishlab.nres.illinois.edu/Reprints/Long_et_al_History_Bass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYmdKDz9_YAhVNRqwKHUGEA2UQFjAAegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw2L_5yKBOES-5VzOy9m_dv4
Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!
Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.
WRB reply :
Thank you Catt, good data.
The generalized statement that Florida strain LMB fingerlings were stocked into Lower Otay is true. The details are; the fingerlings were stscked into holding ponds at the
Miramar lake dam building site. The juvenile bass were then moved to Upper Otay lake, closed to the public, during the filling of Miramar lake. Lower Otay lake was stocked with young adult size FLMB from Upper Otay. Larry Botrhoff was the biologist, Larry Brown the city lakes manager, Orville Ball the supervised.
Miramar was never stocked with bass it was intended to be a public trout lake, the Flodia bass were hold overs that escaped from the holding ponds when the lake filled.
The Zimmerlee 20 lb 15 oz bass caught in 1973 was from the original fingerlings in the Miramar holding ponds and surprised everyone. The Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!
The original Florida and world record LMB was caught in 1923 weighed 20 lbs 2 oz according to the Fiels & Stream contest winner Fritz Friebel and caught from Big Fish lake central Florida. Florida didn't grandfather the Friebel bass due to no proof to authenticate the catch. Several 19 lb bass were also removed for the same reason, no way to authenticate old catches without photos or witness statements. The longest bass recorded caught from Florida was reported to 33" weighing 14 lbs, all other bass recorded are less than 28". You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass. Interesting list is the top 25 Florida LMB list that has a 37" 24 lb bass. Field & Stream claims the top 3 was the Perry bass 22 1/4 lbs, Friebel @20lbs 2 oz and a 19lb 8 bass from Tarpon Lake.
Most bass anglers are very are unwilling to disclose where they catch big bass keeping the location a secret or naming a another lake to protect the lake. This may have happen with thecPerry bass for example. Montgomery oxbow lake was too shallow, too small and without spring water or a souce other then rain or River seepage to prevent from drying up by 1960.
Tom
BassObsessed reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 3:15 AM, WRB said:Thank you Catt, good data.
The generalized statement that Florida strain LMB fingerlings were stocked into Lower Otay is true. The details are; the fingerlings were stscked into holding ponds at the
Miramar lake dam building site. The juvenile bass were then moved to Upper Otay lake, closed to the public, during the filling of Miramar lake. Lower Otay lake was stocked with young adult size FLMB from Upper Otay. Larry Botrhoff was the biologist, Larry Brown the city lakes manager, Orville Ball the supervised.
Miramar was never stocked with bass it was intended to be a public trout lake, the Flodia bass were hold overs that escaped from the holding ponds when the lake filled.
The Zimmerlee 20 lb 15 oz bass caught in 1973 was from the original fingerlings in the Miramar holding ponds and surprised everyone. The Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!
The original Florida record LMB was caught in 1923 weighed 20 lbs 2 oz according to the Fiels & Stream contest winner Fritz and caught from Big Fish lake central Florida. Florida didn't grandfather the Fritz bass due to no proof to authenticate the catch. Several 19 lb bass were also removed for the same reason, no way to authenticate old catches without photos or witness statements. The longest bass recorded caught from Florida was reported to 33" weighing 14 lbs, all other bass recorded are less than 28". You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass.
Most bass anglers are very are unwilling to disclose where they catch big bass keeping the location a secret or naming a another lake to protect the lake. This may have happen with thecPerry bass for example. Montgomery oxbow lake was too shallow, too small and without spring water or a souce other then rain or River seepage to prevent from drying up by 1960.
Tom
There was a claim here locally that an 11lb bass that measured 33'' was caught last year. So many red flags on that ordeal.The main one was the length..You know that bass would have looked like a barrcuda at that length.
OCdockskipper reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 3:15 AM, WRB said:...You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass...
I would say a 33", 14 lb bass is actually a pickerel... 
geo g reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 3:01 AM, Turtle135 said:Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!
Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.
That was a great read! Page 109, supports the date of late 1950's for the first organized movement of Florida Strain out of their native territory and to other states. Thank you for the read, I love this stuff!
J Francho reply :
Key word...organized. Agreed, very interesting.
Catt reply :
Oh I'm far from done ????
Like @J Francho stated y'all need to do some research!
Black bass are native to North America, east of the Rocky Mountains, but have been transplanted widely beginning with the actions of “public-spirited individuals” (Henshall 1881) and later by government entities at all levels (county, state, and federal).
Largemouth Bass plantings were sanctioned by government actions beginning in 1871 and by 1900 were found in all conterminous states of the United States and several other countries (e.g., Austria, Finland, France, Italy, Mexico, and Poland).
Smallmouth Bass had been stocked outside their native range by private individuals beginning in least 1842 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974), by state fisheries commissions beginning circa 1870 (Milner 1874), and by the U.S. Fisheries Commission in 1892 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974). Except for Florida and Louisiana, Smallmouth Bass were known to occur in all U.S. states and several other countries (e.g., Brazil, Belgium, Germany, France,
and Sweden) by 1916 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974).
During a time frame from 1800-1850 only 4 species were known largemouth, smallmouth, Florida, & spotted: these 4 being transplanted worldwide...as a food source!
WRB reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 3:01 AM, Turtle135 said:Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!
Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.
I don't doubt that shipments to California came from the Pensacula area, however the man who initially started the Florida bass program Orville Ball told me back in 1985, when I was researching an article, that the first Florida bass shipped came from Cypress Springs and were put into the Miramar ponds and Larry Bothroff confirmed that. Larry always referred to the initial bass as pure Florida strain. Larry also mentioned the lake Hodges was the only San Diego city lake stocked with pure FLMB as Upper Otay had a population of northern strain LMB that intergrade/ spawn with the FLMB.
The lake Hodges dam was renovated and everything killed before refilling and stocked with Bluegill, crappie, threadfin Shad and FLMB, no NLMB for study purposes. All the other city lakes has NLMB populations when they were stocked with FLMB. It's likely that Upper Otay did receive bass from the Pensacola hatchery, I never asked that question.
Tom
Catt reply :
Apparently y'all didn't follow the link provided or down load all the PFD files given.
Chowderhead reply :
QuoteThe Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!
that is a story I would love to know more about.
BassWhole! reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 4:35 AM, J Francho said:Key word...organized. Agreed, very interesting.
Very shortly after the railroads came into wide use, and long before most regulations, it apparently became a good idea to transport all sorts of live fish around the country.
J Francho reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 1:16 PM, Catt said:Apparently y'all didn't follow the link provided or down load all the PFD files given.
I skipped the last 8 pages of references, though I may dig into that later. Some may be worth googling.
soflabasser reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 5:23 AM, Catt said:Smallmouth Bass had been stocked outside their native range by private individuals beginning in least 1842 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974), by state fisheries commissions beginning circa 1870 (Milner 1874), and by the U.S. Fisheries Commission in 1892 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974). Except for Florida and Louisiana, Smallmouth Bass were known to occur in all U.S. states and several other countries (e.g., Brazil, Belgium, Germany, France,
and Sweden) by 1916 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974).
Smallmouth bass where stocked in North Florida in the early 1900's. They where stocked in several North Florida rivers such as the Suwannee and Chipola rivers.
Chowderhead reply :
On 1/18/2018 at 8:23 PM, reason said:Very shortly after the railroads came into wide use, and long before most regulations, it apparently became a good idea to transport all sorts of live fish around the country.
As well as export. In "Book of the Black Bass," the author (Dr. Henshall) devotes a chapter about the transportation and stocking of Black Bass both in the US and overseas. The book was published in 1881. Reading it now.
https://archive.org/details/bookofblackbass00hens
***I see that Catt (and others) have already referenced this point. Sorry for missing it.***
BassWhole! reply :
On 1/19/2018 at 9:44 AM, Chowderhead said:As well as export. In "Book of the Black Bass," the author (Dr. Henshall) devotes a chapter about the transportation and stocking of Black Bass both in the US and overseas. The book was published in 1881. Reading it now.
https://archive.org/details/bookofblackbass00hens
***I see that Catt (and others) have already referenced this point. Sorry for missing it.***
When reading pubs from these periods, keep in mind that sport angling (as well as most other activities of leisure) were primarily in the realm of the well to do. Normal folk for the most part didn't have the time and or means to participate on a regular basis. This began to change after the turn of the century, but was halted by the depression and WW II. Fishing (and hunting) was seen as much as a way to procure food as sport. And then the GIs brought back the inline spinner and some Finnish guy got a pocket knife for Christmas...
WRB reply :
The OP's original question wasn't that far off. After the big bass explosion created by the Florida strain LMB transplanted to San Diego it spurred a rush in the 70's to plant the FLMB all across the country. Little was known about the low water temperature threshold issues and the bass were introduced into lakes they couldn't servive in and lakes without eccosystems to support growth. For every lake that had success 10 lakes failed. Keep in mind the FLMB program in San Diego city lakes was considered a failure to achieve it's original goal to improve the size of bass caught per man hour fished.
The FLMB / NLMB intergrades tend to combine the negative qualities of both strains, less aggressive and difficult to catch with slower growth rates.
Tom
Catt reply :
"The F1 largemouth bass (often refered to as the "Tiger" bass) is a product of the aquaculture industry and is defined as the first generation cross between a Florida and Northern bass. The F1 largemouth bass is typically the strain of choice for stocking new ponds because it displays favorable characteristics of both parental strains: the growth potential of the Florida strain and the aggressiveness of the Northern strain."
Sounds like high growth rates & easy to catch
http://sepond.com/fish-stocking/largemouth-bass
Team9nine reply :
On 1/19/2018 at 4:35 PM, Catt said:"The F1 largemouth bass (often refered to as the "Tiger" bass) is a product of the aquaculture industry and is defined as the first generation cross between a Florida and Northern bass. The F1 largemouth bass is typically the strain of choice for stocking new ponds because it displays favorable characteristics of both parental strains: the growth potential of the Florida strain and the aggressiveness of the Northern strain."
Sounds like high growth rates & easy to catch
http://sepond.com/fish-stocking/largemouth-bass
We're starting to get terms defined multiple ways here (sound familiar?). "Tiger bass" is a trademarked name, and legally can only be used to refer to that companies specific bass. They specifically bred an aggressive strain of NLMB and then crossed with large (13#) FLMB to produce the Tiger bass, a fish with the aggressive characteristics of northerns and the growth potential of Florida's. They are basically a "designer" fish, and as such, they are different than what occurred in California, and your sepond reference is not 100% accurate.
Catt reply :
On 1/19/2018 at 10:40 PM, Team9nine said:We're starting to get terms defined multiple ways here (sound familiar?). "Tiger bass" is a trademarked name, and legally can only be used to refer to that companies specific bass. They specifically bred an aggressive strain of NLMB and then crossed with large (13#) FLMB to produce the Tiger bass, a fish with the aggressive characteristics of northerns and the growth potential of Florida's. They are basically a "designer" fish, and as such, they are different than what occurred in California, and your sepond reference is not 100% accurate.
That's not my definition but that of the people who created the Tiger/F1/Gorilla bass click on the link.
Team9nine reply :
On 1/19/2018 at 11:51 PM, Catt said:That's not my definition but that of the people who created the Tiger/F1/Gorilla bass click on the link.
Southeastern Pond Management didn't create the Tiger Bass, American Sport Fish did (both are in AL). The company in your link is trying to capitalize on the name Tiger Bass by saying it generally references any NLMB/FLMB cross, of which they are incorrect. Tiger Bass is a registered trademark, so only the owners, or people licensing the name from the owners, could legally use the term for their sales. Check out the American Sport Fish website where they tell you they are the only hatchery licensed to produce and sell Tiger Bass.
They also mention that the Perry bass is thought to be a northern/Florida intergrade (a hybrid cross), with which other experts agree.
BassNJake reply :
Included the link to save time from searching
http://americansportfish.com/articles/37-tracking-the-tiger-tiger-bass-and-their-growth-in-the-southeast
gobig reply :
On 1/16/2018 at 9:46 PM, MTBassin said:I just watched a video on the TacticalBassin YT channel and Matt Allen said that the main lake he fishes in California (Clear Lake) in California has very very few trout in it. It's not so much that the bass are keying in on those big swimbaits because they want to eat a trout and that they are used to trout as a food source. Its more because it is a big slow moving bait that just happens to be painted in a color pattern that catches their attention and looks like an easy meal.
There only a few trout that make it into clearlake from high run off in the mountains but there are hitch. Most of the hitch I have seen are between 4in and 14in. Since the shad population has boomed again the big bait bite has dramatically decreased.
Catt reply :
@Team9nine I'm very aware of both companies & have been working with both companies planting bass in private ponds & marshes here.
Southeastern Pond Management is licensed to use the name, I've sat with their personal & reviewed their paperwork.
If ya got problems with them feel free to contact them & correct them.
gobig reply :
I think that genetics are a huge factor. But even with good genetics fish can only grow to there environment. I don't buy into the idea that trout or kokanee have no roll. The spotted bass have blown up over the last several years with the kokanee programs. Before the kokanee 12lbs would win a tournament. Now it can take as much as 30lbs to win. I don't think we are done seeing the spotted bass record being broke. I think it will top out in the 14lb range.
ratherbfishin1 reply :
I’ve heard it also depends on how bad the winters are. In Florida the winters are really mild(except for this year
) but in Nebraska where I live they don’t get as big because it gets cold and so they aren’t growing year round. That’s just what I heard I don’t know if that’s true so if it’s not someone please correct me
WRB reply :
The today with Florida largemouth bass living in Florida during the last 75+ years may no longer be "pure" Florida strain LMB. As pointed out earlier the Florida strain LMB transplanted in California and Japan have questionable purity and could have been intergrades. How many generations of intergrades were these transplants? Largemouth bass F-1's can spawn with each other or with any other LMB in the wild. Does F1+ F1+ pure FLMB + F1+ Pure NLMB + F1 = F1? This is what occurs genetically in the wild and SoCal has 45 generations of F-1's.
Each generation differs in both growth rates, aggressiveness being an individual trait, males are usually more aggressive then females but only attain less then 1/2 the size.
I can tell you from decades of experience multiple generations of F-1's are less aggressive then NLMB and rarely exceed 12 lbs. we have very few NMLB lakes in SoCal, those few are easy to catch the aggressive bass then lakes with F1.
I believe 1st generation F-1's grow to be giants and know "pure" FLMB grow to be giants, beyond that is questionable.
If you study Gary Schwartz attemp to grow giant bass in La Perla lake F-1's ruined his efforts and he started over with Camelot-Bell.
Tom
J Francho reply :
Resulting progeny of F1 x F1 would be F2. Anything else is a new cross, and the generation label would be F1, though that designation is always referred to in a controlled environment, not in the wild. You can't really control what the fish do in the wild, so unless each generation is in a controlled environment, it's genetic heritage will always be in question.
Team9nine reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 1:42 AM, Catt said:@Team9nine I'm very aware of both companies & have been working with both companies planting bass in private ponds & marshes here.
Southeastern Pond Management is licensed to use the name, I've sat with their personal & reviewed their paperwork.
If ya got problems with them feel free to contact them & correct them.
No problems here...That's exactly what I said - they'd have to be licensing the name Tiger Bass to legally be able to sell them under that monicker.
WRB reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 2:17 AM, J Francho said:Resulting progeny of F1 x F1 would be F2. Anything else is a new cross, and the generation label would be F1, though that designation is always referred to in a controlled environment, not in the wild. You can't really control what the fish do in the wild, so unless each generation is in a controlled environment, it's genetic heritage will always be in question.
So in my random example the answer = F1, proving my point that F1 are not equal and could also be a small male F1 that will never grow to be a trophy size bass.
Tom
Catt reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 2:19 AM, Team9nine said:No problems here...That's exactly what I said - they'd have to be licensing the name Tiger Bass to legally be able to sell them under that monicker.
Google Grosse Savanne
There's another marsh twice if not three times as big being built as we speak. My name is on Mike Duhon's (builder/head guide) short list of guides. This marsh was stocked by American Sport Fish 16 months ago.
Kinda excited to get to start fishing it in March ????
J Francho reply :
Yes, Tom. You got it. 
BassObsessed reply :
Maybe it was covered in this conversation but introducing f1's in the lake in texas was a mistake due to the fact that northern strain genetics are dominant and over time will limit the potential of Florida strain genes.
WRB reply :
Texas controls the breeding by using both large males and 13lb+ females bass in the Share a Lunker program to stock lakes. California make no effort to replenish the Floridsa strain or northern strains of LMB and haven't stocked a lake beyond the initial stocking of a lake. All the FLMB in California, to the best of my knowledge, are the 1959 bass from Florida and that strain, with few exceptions, was stocked into lakes that had existing NLMB populations. 2 exceptions I know of are Hodges and Diamond Valley. Upper Otay was the source lake for most if not all FLMB in California during the 70's.
When you consider growth rates, Lake Isabella in central CA was stocked with FLMB in 1977, Keith Harper caught a 18 lb. 15 oz lake record FLMB in 1984, 7 year old bass!
Lakes Castiac and Casitas were stocked in 1973, the Castias lake record Ray Easly's 21 lb 3 oz bass caught in 1981, 9 year old bass. FLMB live about 15 years in California and that is why we thought a world record bass was living here. Unfortunitly Dottie was caught illegally. The one thing California lakes have in common is they are deep structured lakes with drinking quality water that are subjected to severe water level changes that cause fluctuating prey populations and unsuccessful recruitment year classes, plus extreme fishing pressure.
Tom
WRB reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 2:44 AM, Catt said:
Google Grosse Savanne
There's another marsh twice if not three times as big being built as we speak. My name is on Mike Duhon's (builder/head guide) short list of guides. This marsh was stocked by American Sport Fish 16 months ago.
Kinda excited to get to start fishing it in March ????
Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.
Tom
12poundbass reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 7:20 AM, WRB said:Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.
Tom
They charge the price of a good duck club too.
Catt reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 7:20 AM, WRB said:Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.
Tom
On 1/20/2018 at 9:11 AM, 12poundbass said:They charge the price of a good duck club too.
Ducks make more money than bass ????
This new marsh will be geared towards bass fishing similar to what Black Lake Marsh & Lake of The Gum Coves before Rita & Ike took em out.
WRB reply :
I don't intend to beat the F1 topic to death but I do question the designation.
Mike Giusti the fishery biologist who was in charge of Diamond Valley lake fishery told me the FLMB being stocked in 1998 were F3-5's, I assume 35th generation Florida strain? DVL lake record FLMB is 16.43 lb caught 2009 by Mike Long, high hopes for 20 lb bass that never developed do to stripe bass population in my opinion.
I will try to contact Mike for clarity, he retired a few years ago.
Tom
BASS302 reply :
@WRB,
I read somewhere that the DVL FLMB were from Lake Hodges. Is that true? I thought that most of the stockings of FLMB in CA came from the FLMB in Upper Otay lake.
WRB reply :
On 1/20/2018 at 3:19 PM, BASS302 said:@WRB,
I read somewhere that the DVL FLMB were from Lake Hodges. Is that true? I thought that most of the stockings of FLMB in CA came from the FLMB in Upper Otay lake.
I don't recall where Mike Giusti said the FLMB came from that he stocked in DVL, only that they were F3-5?. Both Hodges and Miramar had the original fingerlings from Florida, most went into Upper Otay, however it already had a NLMB population so they more then likely became a mix of pure FLMB and F-1's over the years being stocked all over California.
Tom
J Francho reply :
He probably meant 3rd, 4th, or 5th gen. Fish from a cross. 35 gens would take 70-100+ years to complete.
Smalls reply :
I did not expect this to become the topic that it did! Thank you for the responses.
From what I gathered, it seems like strain and the fact that our water is hard for a good chunk of our year has most to do with it.
I guess we’re just stuck with our “dinks” up here in the thumb.
A-Jay reply :
On 1/15/2018 at 2:02 PM, Smalls said:I’ve seen the videos, read the articles. Guys down in California are catching these behemoths on trout colored swimbaits. They stock their lakes with trout for the bass to get nice and fat on. Their average bass is on point with our (MI) state record!
But! We have trout, too! Plenty of em! I imagine the bass here, just as they do in California, snack on them as well.
So why is it that the bass down there grow so much bigger? Are they not eating the same things? Does our cold, cold winter play a part in it?
There’s an abundance of information on why California bass grow so large, and plenty of videos and other information on fishing down there. But I have a hard time finding any information on fishing my lakes at all, let alone any info on why our fish don’t grow to these legendary sizes.
On 1/24/2018 at 6:23 PM, Smalls said:
I guess we’re just stuck with our “dinks” up here in the thumb.
I do the vast majority of my bass fishing in Michigan as well. (Otsego County)
It's common knowledge that this state's green bass population would have a hard time challenging several southern states when talking about max size.
However when considering sheer numbers and size, Michigan's brown bass population takes a back seat to no one.
So it's not all bad.
A-Jay
Smalls reply :
Those are some fine lookin hogs!
I don't seem to find that many smallmouth, but when I do, they’re plump little buggers.
WRB reply :
On 1/21/2018 at 1:02 AM, J Francho said:He probably meant 3rd, 4th, or 5th gen. Fish from a cross. 35 gens would take 70-100+ years to complete.
Bass spawn every year the live as adults with a different bass, the individual adults genes don't change but each years spawn has different genes. 1 adult bass could produce 12 different generic bass year classes in 36 years.
Tom
Team9nine reply :
On 1/25/2018 at 1:42 PM, WRB said:Bass spawn every year the live as adults with a different bass, the individual adults genes don't change but each years spawn has different genes. 1 adult bass could produce 12 different generic bass year classes in 36 years.
Tom
Since the adult genes never change, all those year classes you mention only end up as F1 or F1b's. You would never truly get 3rd, 4th, 5th generation, etc. until their respective offspring mated and created the next generation...kind of like if I had 3 kids every year with 3 different women 
A lot of gene spreading going on, but it's still only 2 generations of family until those kids have kids of their own.
J Francho reply :
On 1/25/2018 at 1:42 PM, WRB said:1 adult bass could produce 12 different generic bass year classes in 36 years.
Year classes are not generations. I don't think many bass live for 36 years either.
See what T9 wrote for the rest.
BTW, did everyone know that the "F" in "F1" stands for filial? In other words, sons or daughters.
BassNJake reply :
I knew I should have paid better attention in biology class
12poundbass reply :
On 1/25/2018 at 9:43 PM, J Francho said:BTW, did everyone know that the "F" in "F1" stands for filial? In other words, sons or daughters.
Thanks J I'm winning trivia night for sure now! ????
Turtle135 reply :
What I am curious about was if "Dottie" and Manabu Kurita's bass were actually intergrades and not pure Florida Strain Largemouth. George Perry's fish would likely have been an intergrade.
WRB reply :
On 1/25/2018 at 9:24 PM, Team9nine said:Since the adult genes never change, all those year classes you mention only end up as F1 or F1b's. You would never truly get 3rd, 4th, 5th generation, etc. until their respective offspring mated and created the next generation...kind of like if I had 3 kids every year with 3 different women
What I am saying is every 3 years the off spring have "kids" , a new generation every 3 years, over 36 years that is 12 generations.
Tom
J Francho reply :
You can't assume they stick to the right generation.
WRB reply :
On 1/25/2018 at 10:15 PM, Turtle135 said:What I am curious about was if "Dottie" and Manabu Kurita's bass were actually intergrades and not pure Florida Strain Largemouth. George Perry's fish would likely have been an intergrade.
From what I read Dottie wasn't genetically examined, she measured and weighed, more then likely a F1. Kurita bass was examined and listed as pure Florida strain LMB.
Perry bass can be whatever you want it to be, nothing has been authenticated.
Tom
On 1/26/2018 at 12:09 AM, J Francho said:You can't assume they stick to the right generation.
Agree it's hypothetical, we agree there are multiple generations with both northern and Florida strain being integrated multiple times over 50 years in the same lakes until the genetics flatten out and that is where Califirnia is today, few if any northern strain and unknown strains of Florida bass.
Tom
Catt reply :
Past genetic research focused mainly on the female but the ShareLunker program is showing the equally important role of the male's genetics.
2014 Nacogdoches Texas, a lake record of 12.54 lbs was caught on Lake Naconiche; genetic research showed some interesting facts.
The mother was ShareLunker #370; 14.28 lbs from Falcon Lake.
The grandmother was ShareLunker #187; 14.05 lbs from Lake Fork.
The great-grandmother was ShareLunker #9; 16.13 lbs from Gibbons Creek.
Plus ShareLunker #305; 14.67 lbs from Lake Fork.
All 5 were from the same father; an almost 8 lb male.
OCdockskipper reply :
On 1/26/2018 at 12:30 AM, Catt said:All 5 were from the same father; an almost 8 lb male.
So this dude was reproducing with his great, great granddaughter?
I think that was an episode on the original "X-Files".
BassWhole! reply :
On 1/26/2018 at 12:09 AM, J Francho said:You can't assume they stick to the right generation.
Specially in and around the TVA...
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