Taking things to the next level. 2024
Alan Reed reply :
There seems to be a lot of information available for the beginning bass fisherman and how to get started and technique specific instruction. There is also a lot of information on seasonal movements and position on any given body of water to identify thr high percentage areas.
As a tournament Angler the obvious goal is to move to from catch more bass to catching more bigger bass. It is just trial and error on the water?
slonezp reply :
I see a Buck Perry thread in the near future
RHuff reply :
There was a question posted a few months ago regarding catching bigger bass and the conscience of answers seemed to be that if your getting bit then stay on that particular bait but to catch bigger bass you need to either upsize your lure or move to deeper water.
Bluebasser86 reply :
There is a lot to be said for time on the water. With time you realize that there's certain baits and areas that produce larger than average bass. Lots of good books out there to read up on targeting big bass. Glen Lau's Bigmouth Forever is on Youtube and really opened my eyes about what a bass is capable of doing and their behavior.
soflabasser reply :
Time spent wisely on the water is the best teacher.
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/26/2018 at 9:44 PM, soflabasser said:Time spent wisely on the water is the best teacher.
Expand on what you me by wisely.
CroakHunter reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 3:09 AM, Alan Reed said:Expand on what you me by wisely.
Eliminating non-productive or small fish water helps enormously. Search for the spot within the spot.
geo g reply :
Read as much as you can either on the web of in some excellent books. One thing I have learned, get any bait in a bass strike zone and you have a good chance of catching it. You must find out where they are that day, that hour, that minute. Conditions will move them from place to place. A senko or a U-Vibe will catch bass of all sizes almost anywhere in the country. Its not so much what you throw, but where you throw it, and how you present the bait that hour. Bass of all size eat big and small creatures in the wild. A 4" senko will work, as well as a 12" worm. There is no one meracle bait, there is just the fisherman's ability to put it in the strike zone, and work it how they want it, at that time.
Sometime bass will be deep, sometime shallow, sometime in thick cover, and sometime on outside edges. Plastics, Texas rigged will handle all these different scenarios without hanging up. Time on the water and increased practical experience will solve a lot of your current problems. Good luck on the journey.
BigAngus752 reply :
On 8/26/2018 at 6:31 AM, Alan Reed said:to from catch more bass to catching more bigger bass
On 8/26/2018 at 10:06 AM, RHuff said:but to catch bigger bass you need to either upsize your lure or move to deeper water
On 8/26/2018 at 2:06 PM, Bluebasser86 said:With time you realize that there's certain baits and areas that produce larger than average bass
On 8/27/2018 at 3:41 AM, CroakHunter said:or small fish water
I'm watching this question from @Alan Reed very closely as this is exactly where I need to go with my knowledge know too. So when I do my studying and head to my first spot on a lake that I know for sure has 7lb and 8lb bass in it and I'm catching 1.5lb to 2.5lb bass is that not going to be the right spot for a 5 or 7lb bass? Do the dinks and the hawgs not hang out together? I've been of the thought that when I'm pulling 2lb bass out of an area I am in the right GENERAL area or pattern, but slightly off on the EXACT location or pattern. Am I likely way off or am I close? Thanks to @Alan Reed for posting this one.
CroakHunter reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 6:22 AM, BigAngus752 said:
I'm watching this question from @Alan Reed very closely as this is exactly where I need to go with my knowledge know too. So when I do my studying and head to my first spot on a lake that I know for sure has 7lb and 8lb bass in it and I'm catching 1.5lb to 2.5lb bass is that not going to be the right spot for a 5 or 7lb bass? Do the dinks and the hawgs not hang out together? I've been of the thought that when I'm pulling 2lb bass out of an area I am in the right GENERAL area or pattern, but slightly off on the EXACT location or pattern. Am I likely way off or am I close? Thanks to @Alan Reed for posting this one.
All my big bass have come from the heart of cover or structure. Not the edges. With a slow retrieve with the utmost focus on my line and surroundings.
soflabasser reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 3:09 AM, Alan Reed said:Expand on what you me by wisely.
There are a lot of things you can do to up your game in bass fishing if you want to.
1. Find someone who is a much better bass fisherman than yourself in the waters you fish and become friends with him/her. Fish with them as much as possible and do your best to learn from them. This will speed up your learning curve much faster than reading anything online or in a book.
2. Do your best to learn from every fishing trip.
3. Do your best to learn how to read the water.
4. Do your best to learn how to fish the different seasons and strive to be good bass fishermen throughout the year, not just a season or two.
5. Do your best to master a couple lures instead of fishing dozens of types of lures but you really don't fish them enough to the point you master them.
6. Understand that no matter how much you know there will always be someone who knows a certain technique better than you and knows how to fish a certain body of water better than you. Knowing this means it would be best to keep a open mind and do your best to learn from everybody who is willing to teach you what they know.
Team9nine reply :
Since you're specifically referencing tourney situations, I'm going with your answer of a lot of "trial and error on the water." It's one thing to specifically target big fish on your own time and water, but a completely different scenario to do it under the constraints of a tourney. Looking at the recent Elite event that just finished up, some of the best pros in the world ended up at the bottom of the pack because their average was just 3 pounds per bass while the winner and top guys averaged 4.5-4.75 pounds per bass. While some guys are a little better overall in the stats dept. (KVD, etc.), the bottom line in my opinion is nobody really has the answer to your question figured out...and if they say they do, they're either fooling themself, or their name might be "Angler X" (subtle FLW reference for those that know their tourney history) 
.ghoti. reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 9:22 AM, Team9nine said:the bottom line in my opinion is nobody really has the answer to your question figured out...and if they say they do, they're either fooling themself, or their name might be "Angler X"
Team9Nine, the longer you're hear, and the more of your posts I read, the better I like you.
The above quote needs a soundtrack.
Let's go with Otis Reddings' version of "Tell it like it is".
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 9:22 AM, Team9nine said:Since you're specifically referencing tourney situations, I'm going with your answer of a lot of "trial and error on the water." It's one thing to specifically target big fish on your own time and water, but a completely different scenario to do it under the constraints of a tourney. Looking at the recent Elite event that just finished up, some of the best pros in the world ended up at the bottom of the pack because their average was just 3 pounds per bass while the winner and top guys averaged 4.5-4.75 pounds per bass. While some guys are a little better overall in the stats dept. (KVD, etc.), the bottom line in my opinion is nobody really has the answer to your question figured out...and if they say they do, they're either fooling themself, or their name might be "Angler X" (subtle FLW reference for those that know their tourney history)
Sure everyone even the best in the world have bad days, weeks and tournaments. But there is something that the best have learned that the rest of strive to have. Which is what sparks my question.
TOXIC reply :
In my guide service, I have taken out fishermen who want to do any number of things. Pattern water, catch numbers, learn the lake, catch a trophy just to name a few. If they want to catch a trophy there are some things I tell them up front. Time of year makes a difference. Current weather and lake conditions make a difference. Fishing ability makes a difference. Trophy hunting is an all or nothing experience because the schoolers don't swim with the big mammas. So I normally take the trophy hunters out for a few schooling fish just to get past the fact that the guide knows what he is doing and then move on to the hunt for big fish. Totally different fishing in different spots for different fish. I also tell them there's a good chance of blanking, it's just the law of averages. The pro's are usually set up for the best fishing on whatever body of water they are on to keep the catches big for the fan base. That's why the trail starts down south and moves north as the season advances. Put them on those same bodies of water in the "off peak" time frame and they would have more of a problem bringing in big sacks. Also remember they have experience on those bodies of water and more than likely or have sources letting them know where the quality fish are hanging out. Bottom line know your water and put together the fine points that up your chances of catching the bigger fish.
NHBull reply :
For me, tournament fishing and recreational fishing is different, but focusing on improving the overall size while maintaining numbers is the key. For me, finding the fish is the most important. In doing so, I find myself selecting different baits on lesser know spots. It's the journey
Team9nine reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 12:10 PM, Alan Reed said:Sure everyone even the best in the world have bad days, weeks and tournaments. But there is something that the best have learned that the rest of strive to have. Which is what sparks my question.
I think trying to define or quantify "this special something" is a bit futile myself, because more than one guy has "it," but everyone has their own theories, experiences, approaches and techniques that make them who they are. Asking them (personally) what makes them so good usually leads to some non-inspiring answer. If it were simple and straightforward, we would have all read it somewhere already and all be just as good, competing against these guys on tour instead of hanging out on a fishing forum. Forge your own unique style and path.
Spankey reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 6:22 AM, BigAngus752 said:
I'm watching this question from @Alan Reed very closely as this is exactly where I need to go with my knowledge know too. So when I do my studying and head to my first spot on a lake that I know for sure has 7lb and 8lb bass in it and I'm catching 1.5lb to 2.5lb bass is that not going to be the right spot for a 5 or 7lb bass? Do the dinks and the hawgs not hang out together? I've been of the thought that when I'm pulling 2lb bass out of an area I am in the right GENERAL area or pattern, but slightly off on the EXACT location or pattern. Am I likely way off or am I close? Thanks to @Alan Reed for posting this one.
Do the dinks and runts hang with the bigger bass? Have the larger bass that I've caught in the last month staged themselves differently? Has pressure in the area have them locked jawed? I'm not sure.
I'm pretty anal and when I get something in my head I go with it and stick with it until death. Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I wrong. Saturday and Sunday I was wrong. This past weekend I felt my way to nice bass was going to be split shotting and drop shotting.
My fish all weekend were 11"-12" bass. I had a few big hit. Hits bigger than these fish. I believe the nicer fish were right there near those runts. Maybe smaller bass shutdown differently.
To original poster, great post also.
BassWhole! reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 8:26 PM, Team9nine said:I think trying to define or quantify "this special something" is a bit futile myself, because more than one guy has "it," but everyone has their own theories, experiences, approaches and techniques that make them who they are. Asking them (personally) what makes them so good usually leads to some non-inspiring answer. If it were simple and straightforward, we would have all read it somewhere already and all be just as good, competing against these guys on tour instead of hanging out on a fishing forum. Forge your own unique style and path.
Yeah, that "special something" is inside each individual. Watching videos or even asking the person and listening to the answer for hours on end won't cause osmosis to infuse one with it. It isn't as obvious with competition where there is no clearly apparent physical or psychological advantages, but they are there none the less. I could ask Lebron how to take off from the baseline, put a hip on the D without loosing balance and dunk over the guy coming over the weak side, and watch all his YT videos, and I still couldn't even reach the net with a step stool. Same applies to fishing, and everything else.
Catt reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 9:22 AM, Team9nine said:Looking at the recent Elite event that just finished up, some of the best pros in the world ended up at the bottom of the pack because their average was just 3 pounds per bass while the winner and top guys averaged 4.5-4.75 pounds per bass.
While I agree 100% with everything you've posted on this topic, we need to understand in Pro tournaments we're talking 3-4 day events.
For the rest of us Joe's it's a one day event, it's easier to hold a 4-5# average for a single day than 4 days.
In the tournaments I fish the strategy is kicker fish, the bigger the kicker fish the smaller your next 4 can be.
Some anglers have the mindset of putting 5 of any size in the boat asap. Down here we start the tournament targeting kicker fish.
GReb reply :
I take 2 things away from watching the Elite guys.
1. They are all really proficient in one or two presentations and they rely heavily on it.
2. They understand weather, lake conditions and patterns.
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 11:13 PM, Catt said:
While I agree 100% with everything you've posted on this topic, we need to understand in Pro tournaments we're talking 3-4 day events.
For the rest of us Joe's it's a one day event, it's easier to hold a 4-5# average for a single day than 4 days.
In the tournaments I fish the strategy is kicker fish, the bigger the kicker fish the smaller your next 4 can be.
Some anglers have the mindset of putting 5 of any size in the boat asap. Down here we start the tournament targeting kicker fish.
This is getting back to the point main topic which is targeting the bigger fish in a way that works in a tournament. That is obviously different than some one that is going out seeking the fish of a lifetime every time they go out knowing many times that means they are not going to get a single bite.
What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?
Team9nine reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 11:13 PM, Catt said:
While I agree 100% with everything you've posted on this topic, we need to understand in Pro tournaments we're talking 3-4 day events.
For the rest of us Joe's it's a one day event, it's easier to hold a 4-5# average for a single day than 4 days.
In the tournaments I fish the strategy is kicker fish, the bigger the kicker fish the smaller your next 4 can be.
Some anglers have the mindset of putting 5 of any size in the boat asap. Down here we start the tournament targeting kicker fish.
I agree overall, but even then, you'll find "success" all over the map. Some try to target bigger fish first, while some target a limit, then change tactics for a kicker fish. Still others simply go fishing and let the chips fall where they may. We could probably all name local "sticks" who fall into each of those categories. Most all agree though that "luck" creeps in a bit more in one day events compared to multi-day derbies.
Note: In Indiana, a limit is a rare thing in many tournies as we have some of the toughest fisheries in the country. As such, where you fish (base your answer/strategy on) will change the answer as to what approach might work best.
A-Jay reply :
On 8/26/2018 at 6:31 AM, Alan Reed said:There seems to be a lot of information available for the beginning bass fisherman and how to get started and technique specific instruction. There is also a lot of information on seasonal movements and position on any given body of water to identify thr high percentage areas.
As a tournament Angler the obvious goal is to move to from catch more bass to catching more bigger bass. It is just trial and error on the water?
On 8/27/2018 at 11:49 PM, Alan Reed said:
This is getting back to the point main topic which is targeting the bigger fish in a way that works in a tournament. That is obviously different than some one that is going out seeking the fish of a lifetime every time they go out knowing many times that means they are not going to get a single bite.
What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?
While I do not fish competitively, catching the heaviest legal limit has been my objective each trip for a while now.
When I look back at my early years / stages of bass fishing and perhaps how & why I've struggled the most (even today) the reasons were many. Interestingly (but certainly not surprisingly) much of it was succinctly noted in a response by @Catt to one of @Alan Reed's previous posts ~
For me - these 9 ideas / concepts, that often take at least 1/2 a life time on the water to identify, sum up and answer the OP's question well.
Get the majority of the below list right, and you'll be well on your way to where you are looking to go.
A-Jay
geo g reply :
Look at MLF. These guys are the best in the business but they are catching 1 or 2 pound bass and thrilled to get them. Why are they not out there targeting double digit bass. Because they know there are a lot more smaller bass then big bass in any body of water. You go to target just big bass and your often in for a long day of fishing, with little results. Like the guide said in an earlier post, I let them catch some schoolies and then go after a big one, because that could be the end of catching that day. If you knew the secret to catching big bass consistently, you could easily be a millionaire. To me its all about location, more then anything else. Fish aquarium lakes, with catch and release only, and feed stocked trout several times a year, and your odds go way up, but you still have to be a skilled angler, or just plain lucky. Learn the body of water you fish and how anglers caught big fish on those waters. Then go target the locations where big fish hang out. It's as simple as that! But never simple!
GReb reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 1:05 AM, geo g said:Look at MLF. These guys are the best in the business but they are catching 1 or 2 pound bass and thrilled to get them. Why are they not out there targeting double digit bass. Because they know there are a lot more smaller bass then big bass in any body of water. You go to target just big bass and your often in for a long day of fishing, with little results. Like the guide said in an earlier post, I let them catch some schoolies and then go after a big one, because that could be the end of catching that day. If you knew the secret to catching big bass consistently, you could easily be a millionaire. To me its all about location, more then anything else. Fish aquarium lakes, with catch and release only, and feed stocked trout several times a year, and your odds go way up, but you still have to be a skilled angler, or just plain lucky. Learn the body of water you fish and how anglers caught big fish on those waters. Then go target the locations where big fish hang out. It's as simple as that! But never simple!
MLF is a great training guide because it shows the pros progressions from a scouting standpoint. They each have a mental checklist they go through in order to determine what starting place and lure gives them the best odds.
You can also get this type of insight from their instagrams and YouTube channels. Anything that can build your pool of knowledge is a positive.
rejesterd reply :
Bigger bass are older bass, and older bass are smarter predators. Over time, they become more and more nocturnal. They mostly feed at night and chill out during the day. So during the day, you have to trigger them more into biting. There are exceptions, but that's the main idea. You have to trigger them with fast flashy/wobbly/erratic moving baits, or with very slow-moving baits of a particular color that works for that waterway. So part of it is trial and error in experimenting with color and somewhat with presentation.
At the same time, recognize that bigger fish will still instinctively stage up on places that will allow food to come to them more easily during the day. They're not in full hunting mode, but they'll still eat things if it's not too much effort for them. That means they're mostly out where the current is, or under docks/pads hiding in the shadows.
Catt reply :
On 8/27/2018 at 11:49 PM, Alan Reed said:
On 8/27/2018 at 11:49 PM, Alan Reed said:
This is getting back to the point main topic which is targeting the bigger fish in a way that works in a tournament. That is obviously different than some one that is going out seeking the fish of a lifetime every time they go out knowing many times that means they are not going to get a single bite.
What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?
Correct!
When targeting kicker fish in a tournament we are not talking about targeting double digit bass.
@Alan Reed what size limits does your body of water support?
A legal "keeper" bass on Toledo Bend for either consumption or a tournament is 14" or about a 2# bass.
To place in the money in most tournaments takes a 20# sack, if I put 5 "keeper" fish in the livewell I'm looking at a 10# sack & I'm gonna have a heck of a job culling up because I've wasted time on "keepers".
"What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?"
For us it's a simple matter of moving to offshore structure!
Which by the way is a growing trend in Pro tournaments!
For years the strategy in Pro tournaments was fishing shallow water because it was less time consuming & easier to patterned.
With today electronics fishing deep water structure is just as easy to pattern.
Edited by CattOperator Error
RichF reply :
If you wanna catch bigger than average bass, get off the bank and don't throw the following things:
1. Senko
2. Ned Rig
3. wacky Rig
4. Neko Rig
Team9nine reply :
If you haven't read the book, this is my favorite commentary on the subject, written by John Gierach. Overlook the "fly fishing" references (think bass), and I think he pretty much converted my thought to match on the subject.
Arlo Smithereen reply :
QuoteI've been reading In Pursuit of Giant Bass by Bill Murphy, and it's really got me re-thinking my strategy on the water. There's so much information that I can't imagine how to condense it down to a few sentences. Patience, stealth, awareness, time on the water, and attention to detail are a few things to come to mind.
geo g reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 7:47 AM, Arlo Smithereen said:
You have it figured out!
soflabasser reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 2:33 AM, rejesterd said:Bigger bass are older bass, and older bass are smarter predators. Over time, they become more and more nocturnal. They mostly feed at night and chill out during the day. So during the day, you have to trigger them more into biting. There are exceptions, but that's the main idea. You have to trigger them with fast flashy/wobbly/erratic moving baits, or with very slow-moving baits of a particular color that works for that waterway. So part of it is trial and error in experimenting with color and somewhat with presentation.
At the same time, recognize that bigger fish will still instinctively stage up on places that will allow food to come to them more easily during the day. They're not in full hunting mode, but they'll still eat things if it's not too much effort for them. That means they're mostly out where the current is, or under docks/pads hiding in the shadows.
Catching big bass on a consistent basis is not easy and you usually have to fish for big bass differently than you would fish sub 6 pounders.Nighttime is a great time to target big bass, especially during the summer.
On 8/27/2018 at 8:21 AM, soflabasser said:There are a lot of things you can do to up your game in bass fishing if you want to.
1. Find someone who is a much better bass fisherman than yourself in the waters you fish and become friends with him/her. Fish with them as much as possible and do your best to learn from them. This will speed up your learning curve much faster than reading anything online or in a book.
2. Do your best to learn from every fishing trip.
3. Do your best to learn how to read the water.
4. Do your best to learn how to fish the different seasons and strive to be good bass fishermen throughout the year, not just a season or two.
5. Do your best to master a couple lures instead of fishing dozens of types of lures but you really don't fish them enough to the point you master them.
6. Understand that no matter how much you know there will always be someone who knows a certain technique better than you and knows how to fish a certain body of water better than you. Knowing this means it would be best to keep a open mind and do your best to learn from everybody who is willing to teach you what they know.
I have done everything I mentioned in this list,continue to do so and have seem myself grow as a bass fisherman, even after + 23 years of bass fishing. There are techniques I learned to fish better this year and hope to learn more techniques as time passes.I would highly recommend #1 on the list to anyone who wants to increase their PB, whether it be the biggest bass, top 5 bass in 1 month, top 5 bass in 1 day of fishing,most bass caught in 1 day, most species of bass caught, etc. Like the saying goes its hard to fly like a Eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys so find yourself the best bass fishing buddy you can find and learn from them while actually fishing!
soflabasser reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 3:24 AM, RichF said:If you wanna catch bigger than average bass, get off the bank and don't throw the following things:
1. Senko
2. Ned Rig
3. wacky Rig
4. Neko Rig
One of my fishing buddies has caught several +8 pound bass on senkos/other similar lures and swears by them. I do not like fishing with these types of lures but do acknowledge they work for big bass on some occasions. I rather fish with topwaters, swimbaits, and other lures.
Glaucus reply :
I've been throwing all sorts of lures for years. More recently I've primarily been throwing Senkos in various techniques in ponds for LMB and the Ned Rig in rivers for SMB. I'm catching a ton of small fish. I'm also catching a lot of good fish. I'm also catching a good amount of big fish. Point is, I'm catching a lot of fish. I like to catch bass. I'm tired of the days of power fishing for a few good bites or going out with the mindset of big fish only and sometimes being skunked. Big fish bite the finesse baits too. I'd rather catch 20 small fish, 5 good fish, and 1 giant fish, than 5 good fish and a couple big fish. I don't do this for money, for skill, or for digits. Nothing wrong with a ton of fish on top of good fish.
This month, the Ned has produced the 3 biggest SMB out of a small local river that my fishing circle has ever seen come out of it. They're not "absolute giants", but they are huge for this water, and wouldn't have been caught without the Ned because I've lived by this river since I was a kid and nothing like these have come off topwaters, cranks, spinners, swimbaits, jigs, worms, etc.
RichF reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 8:43 AM, soflabasser said:One of my fishing buddies has caught several +8 pound bass on senkos/other similar lures and swears by them. I do not like fishing with these types of lures but do acknowledge they work for big bass on some occasions. I rather fish with topwaters, swimbaits, and other lures.
There's no doubt they can catch big fish. Problem is, they catch too many little ones. If I'm fishing a tournament, I need 5 bigguns. I don't wanna have to weed through a bunch of dinks (and panfish bites) for that one 4 pounder. I use baits that make me weed through 3's for a 6;)
greentrout reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 3:24 AM, RichF said:If you wanna catch bigger than average bass, get off the bank and don't throw the following things:
1. Senko
2. Ned Rig
3. wacky Rig
4. Neko Rig
Some of the biggest bass ever caught were off the lowly bank...
Mobasser reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 3:15 AM, Catt said:
Correct!
When targeting kicker fish in a tournament we are not talking about targeting double digit bass.
@Alan Reed what size limits does your body of water support?
A legal "keeper" bass on Toledo Bend for either consumption or a tournament is 14" or about a 2# bass.
To place in the money in most tournaments takes a 20# sack, if I put 5 "keeper" fish in the livewell I'm looking at a 10# sack & I'm gonna have a heck of a job culling up because I've wasted time on "keepers".
"What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?"
For us it's a simple matter of moving to offshore structure!
Which by the way is a growing trend in Pro tournaments!
For years the strategy in Pro tournaments was fishing shallow water because it was less time consuming & easier to patterned.
With today electronics fishing deep water structure is just as easy to pattern.
Agree with Catt. If you look back on tournament fishing history, shallow water was where many early pros fished all the time.You can spend so much time in the shallows, you miss the chance for bigger fish from deeper water. We all love a faster shallow bite, but structure fishing opens so many more possibilities.
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 3:15 AM, Catt said:
Correct!
When targeting kicker fish in a tournament we are not talking about targeting double digit bass.
@Alan Reed what size limits does your body of water support?
A legal "keeper" bass on Toledo Bend for either consumption or a tournament is 14" or about a 2# bass.
To place in the money in most tournaments takes a 20# sack, if I put 5 "keeper" fish in the livewell I'm looking at a 10# sack & I'm gonna have a heck of a job culling up because I've wasted time on "keepers".
"What is the strategy difference you employ to target the bigger tournament fish?"
For us it's a simple matter of moving to offshore structure!
Which by the way is a growing trend in Pro tournaments!
For years the strategy in Pro tournaments was fishing shallow water because it was less time consuming & easier to patterned.
With today electronics fishing deep water structure is just as easy to pattern.
@Catt I fish many different bodies of water. I have done national tournaments on Kentucky lake in the early spring, as they were moving up to spawn and once they were out on the ledges.
My local tournaments in Indiana, one day tournaments winning weights are on average in the upper teens. Most public water in Indiana has a 14” minimum with some of the state owned property as high as 18” keepers. A 20” around 5 pound bass on most lakes here are considered a kicker fish.
On 8/28/2018 at 9:20 AM, Glaucus said:I've been throwing all sorts of lures for years. More recently I've primarily been throwing Senkos in various techniques in ponds for LMB and the Ned Rig in rivers for SMB. I'm catching a ton of small fish. I'm also catching a lot of good fish. I'm also catching a good amount of big fish. Point is, I'm catching a lot of fish. I like to catch bass. I'm tired of the days of power fishing for a few good bites or going out with the mindset of big fish only and sometimes being skunked. Big fish bite the finesse baits too. I'd rather catch 20 small fish, 5 good fish, and 1 giant fish, than 5 good fish and a couple big fish. I don't do this for money, for skill, or for digits. Nothing wrong with a ton of fish on top of good fish.
This month, the Ned has produced the 3 biggest SMB out of a small local river that my fishing circle has ever seen come out of it. They're not "absolute giants", but they are huge for this water, and wouldn't have been caught without the Ned because I've lived by this river since I was a kid and nothing like these have come off topwaters, cranks, spinners, swimbaits, jigs, worms, etc.
The rivers are an entirely different subject. I need to get better at those as well but I have seen the smaller lures in the rivers perform very well.
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 7:09 AM, Team9nine said:If you haven't read the book, this is my favorite commentary on the subject, written by John Gierach. Overlook the "fly fishing" references (think bass), and I think he pretty much converted my thought to match on the subject.
Thanks for sharing, and I agree whole heartedly in developing your own style and technique that works for you. Sometimes your style, the way you twitch a bait and the length you wait to move your lure is the difference.
But consider this, in every sport when we look at all the greats they all had something in common, the best quarterbacks could all read the defense prior to the snap and knew how to make an adjustment to the play to counteract that. Maybe that was a different play or to quicken the release. MJ and Lebron knew how to use their body and ball movements to create separation between them and their defender.
How does that translate to fishing? First I think they all have the great ability to locate big fish. Second once they locate the big fish they go to their bag of tricks and find a way to make them bite. Yes it isn’t the same way for each angler because they each have a technique or two they have “mastered” as their own.
Would you agree with this?
soflabasser reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 9:31 AM, RichF said:There's no doubt they can catch big fish. Problem is, they catch too many little ones. If I'm fishing a tournament, I need 5 bigguns. I don't wanna have to weed through a bunch of dinks (and panfish bites) for that one 4 pounder. I use baits that make me weed through 3's for a 6;)
I never liked them much since they tend to catch lots of small/medium bass which is ok but I prefer fishing other lures that I do better with for big bass. I do feel that they have their place and time that they do best and will fish them if I have to.I do not fish tournaments but agree that +6 pounders are better than anything under 6. That's why I do not fish with common little lures when I am seriously targeting big bass. A blind squirrel does find a nut every once in a while just like you hear about reports of people catching big bass on little crappie jigs, inline spinners, etc.
TOXIC reply :
The problem with using MLF as a model is that ALL score-able bass count the same. There's no benefit for big fish beyond the distinct possibility of not catching anything while targeting them. Too risky. Easier to put a bunch of smaller fish in the boat. Let's be clear, there's a distinct difference between "Kicker Fish" and a "Trophy Fish" there's always going to be a better class of fish mixed in with the schoolers that you will eventually catch weeding through the smaller fish. A trophy fish is a whole different animal.
Catt reply :
Learn: gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
Learn your body of water; even if you bank fish.
Learn the food source; most under discussed subject on this site.
Have confidence in yourself; know your strengths & more importantly admit your weaknesses!
K.I.S.S. ????
Trophy or tournament fisherman use simple techniques to perfection to consistently catch bass.
Anglers often respond to failure and frustration by over-complicating theory and technique. As much as it helps our egos to regard a difficult task as complex, this type of thinking is often the biggest obstacle between you and your fishing success.
Sam reply :
Alan, you have asked the $64,000 Question.
Easy question - difficult answer.
What the guys have penned, especially .Ghoti. tells you that there is really no answer to your query.
What you can do is use larger baits and be aware that you will have fewer strikes.
A friend fishes only 1/2 ounce jigs. He says all he needs is five bites a tournament and he used to win many tournaments throwing only 1/2 ounce jigs.
As for where the big ones hang out, on the Chickahominy River outside of Williamsburg, Virginia, we all run up to the dam area for the big ladies. For some reason, the Florida strain bass hang out up river by the dam. We believe we have a better chance of catching one of the big ones by the dam than in any other part of the river.
On the other hand, while fishing a pond, I caught a big one, over five pounds, on a small one-inch white grub while trying to catch bream. She hit it at my feet as I was just getting ready to lift the small bait to cast again. Go figure?
So after reading the posts your challenge is to find the large bait (swimbaits, big jigs with big pigs, 12-inch worms, large deep diving crankbaits) that the bass want that day and hour and cast, cast, and cast some more. As penned above, just be prepared to cast a lot before you get a strike from one of the big ones.
Keep trying. Good luck.
Mobasser reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 11:08 AM, Alan Reed said:Thanks for sharing, and I agree whole heartedly in developing your own style and technique that works for you. Sometimes your style, the way you twitch a bait and the length you wait to move your lure is the difference.
But consider this, in every sport when we look at all the greats they all had something in common, the best quarterbacks could all read the defense prior to the snap and knew how to make an adjustment to the play to counteract that. Maybe that was a different play or to quicken the release. MJ and Lebron knew how to use their body and ball movements to create separation between them and their defender.
How does that translate to fishing? First I think they all have the great ability to locate big fish. Second once they locate the big fish they go to their bag of tricks and find a way to make them bite. Yes it isn’t the same way for each angler because they each have a technique or two they have “mastered” as their own.
Would you agree with this?
Yes. One common thing that the best fisherman share is the ability to locate fish. Even if they are only good with one or two teqniques, once they find fish, they can usually catch some. Experience and confidence play a huge part here.
On 8/28/2018 at 6:54 PM, Catt said:Learn: gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
Learn your body of water; even if you bank fish.
Learn the food source; most under discussed subject on this site.
Have confidence in yourself; know your strengths & more importantly admit your weaknesses!
K.I.S.S. ????
Trophy or tournament fisherman use simple techniques to perfection to consistently catch bass.
Anglers often respond to failure and frustration by over-complicating theory and technique. As much as it helps our egos to regard a difficult task as complex, this type of thinking is often the biggest obstacle between you and your fishing success.
100% true! I see a lot of new fisherman worried about learning all the teqniques. Confused about what rod/reel and baits to buy etc.Instead, learn what the food source is! Fish lures that imitate your food source. This alone can put you ahead of the pack.Is it shad? Crawfish? Panfish? One of The most important things in fishing, but also one of the most overlooked.
mattkenzer reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 6:54 PM, Catt said:Learn: gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
Learn your body of water; even if you bank fish.
Learn the food source; most under discussed subject on this site.
Have confidence in yourself; know your strengths & more importantly admit your weaknesses!
K.I.S.S. ????
Trophy or tournament fisherman use simple techniques to perfection to consistently catch bass.
Anglers often respond to failure and frustration by over-complicating theory and technique. As much as it helps our egos to regard a difficult task as complex, this type of thinking is often the biggest obstacle between you and your fishing success.
Print what Catt wrote and tape it to your steering wheel .....
Learn the body of water and the food source(s) ..... now you have an advantage over others (not the color of your senko)
Thanks Catt.
Team9nine reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 11:08 AM, Alan Reed said:Thanks for sharing, and I agree whole heartedly in developing your own style and technique that works for you. Sometimes your style, the way you twitch a bait and the length you wait to move your lure is the difference.
But consider this, in every sport when we look at all the greats they all had something in common, the best quarterbacks could all read the defense prior to the snap and knew how to make an adjustment to the play to counteract that. Maybe that was a different play or to quicken the release. MJ and Lebron knew how to use their body and ball movements to create separation between them and their defender.
How does that translate to fishing? First I think they all have the great ability to locate big fish. Second once they locate the big fish they go to their bag of tricks and find a way to make them bite. Yes it isn’t the same way for each angler because they each have a technique or two they have “mastered” as their own.
Would you agree with this?
Not completely, because no one seems to be able to define or explain exactly what makes them great, and subsequently, no one seems to be able to duplicate their success by following or mimicking this secret commonality. As I commented earlier, if it were that simple, we all would have read about it by now, and we'd all be doing "it," and we'd all be great, too. I tend to think it is more art than science... ???? Beyond that, they mostly just drive around and look for fish on their sonar screens, then drop down and catch them - lol. Just need to find and fish enough schools until you figure out which ones hold the better quality fish these days.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 8:25 PM, Team9nine said:I tend to think it is more art than science... ????
I agree with @Team9nine. I don't know if I would necessarily use the word art. I think people tend to give the Pros too much credit for what's going on in their head and not enough credit for what they do when the rod is in their hand. Exactly what makes them great with a rod in their hand is what is hard to identify. Take Jordan Lee for example. At his young age he is a far better angler than I will ever be. However, I've heard him talk a few times and I don't get the sense that he has an extraordinary knowledge about bass fishing that I need to learn from. He just goes out and catches fish and he does it better than just about everyone.
Spankey reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 2:03 AM, GReb said:MLF is a great training guide because it shows the pros progressions from a scouting standpoint. They each have a mental checklist they go through in order to determine what starting place and lure gives them the best odds.
You can also get this type of insight from their instagrams and YouTube channels. Anything that can build your pool of knowledge is a positive.
It appears that the MLFers fish crankbaits more than they usually would, looking for reaction strikes. I think it has to do with catching numbers. I don't mean that in any negative way at all. KVD is all about the numbers. That's why he kicks butt in MLF. Pretty clear on an Elite event they set themselves up for bigger fish.
I'm nobody. Just Joe Blow. But when I'm out I'm trying for the nicer fish. I don't like getting skunked anymore than the next guy. Especially when you know there are nice bass in the body of water. But I like to keep bass fishing fun also.
Spankey reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 8:50 PM, Tennessee Boy said:I agree with @Team9nine. I don't know if I would necessarily use the word art. I think people tend to give the Pros too much credit for what's going on in their head and not enough credit for what they do when the rod is in their hand. Exactly what makes them great with a rod in their hand is what is hard to identify. Take Jordan Lee for example. At his young age he is a far better angler than I will ever be. However, I've heard him talk a few times and I don't get the sense that he has an extraordinary knowledge about bass fishing that I need to learn from. He just goes out and catches fish and he does it better than just about everyone.
I agree with you to some extent. Their skill and ability is unreal. They put in their time and efforts.
But these are guys that spend the whole season every day fishing and practicing. No different than you being good at what you do on your job. Or somewhat the same.
The majority of the guys on here are working stiffs that have an overwhelming passion for bass fishing. Who only have so many hours a week to spend on the water. Can most get out a bit more during that week? Probably but time will be minimal.
I have to give credit to the weekend warriors who have progressed over time. Learned and applied what they learned over the years to be successful. Time is the big issue. Time on the water is what makes them good. I don't believe its because they are that much smarter. A lot more repetition and scenarios are in their heads.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 9:22 PM, Spankey said:Time is the big issue. Time on the water is what makes them good. I don't believe its because they are that much smarter. A lot more repetition and scenarios are in their heads.
I couldn't agree more! I intentionally limit the techniques I use in my fishing because I don't have time to perfect more techniques. I'm looking forward to expanding my techniques when I retire, knowing I'll be able to put in the time on the water that's required.
Catt reply :
Y'all over complicating it ????
I don't care if ya fish every day or once a week ya gotta understand your body of water, the food source, & how those two relate to each other morning, noon, & night with each passing season.
Y'all can spend all the time on the water you can but until you understand those 2 you're just fishing!
Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
Big Rick reply :
The one thing I've not seen covered here is PRACTICE pitching, skipping, and casting. The biggest fish are LAZY and don't move a lot to eat. It would probably depress us all to know how many big fish watched our bait land a few inches off target and let it go by. Catching the bigger fish is a game of inches. Often times we only get one shot at that perfect cast. Get it right and something magical happens. Get it wrong, see a swirl and wonder how big that fish actually was. Or, miss the target and never know a lifetime bass is there...
The thing is, accuracy is a major factor with largemouth. They relate to structure their whole life. So, putting your bait in the exact spot it needs to be, as softly as you can, and work it to the best of your ability, really elevates your chances of hooking the big one of the day.
Set up a target in your drive or yard and cast, pitch, and skip to it from different angles over and over and over until you feel like you got it. Then, put a broom or rake horizontally on a bucket or something to raise it off the ground in front of your target. Casting under the obstacle and yet still reaching the target will really make you a much better angler.
Most times it's not the bait you are throwing that keeps you from catching the biggest fish. It's where the bait is landing that determines whether you catch a big one or not.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 9:57 PM, Catt said:Y'all can spend all the time on the water you can but until you understand those 2 you're just fishing!
Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
I'm certainly not suggesting that all it takes is time on the water and that knowledge plays no role in success. Reading an article in Bassmaster on a technique you've never used and then using it on Saturday, then doing the same thing with a different technique the next Saturday is not the key to success IMO. At least it didn't work for me 30 years ago when I tried it.
On 8/28/2018 at 9:57 PM, Catt said:I don't care if ya fish every day or once a week ya gotta understand your body of water, the food source, & how those two relate to each other morning, noon, & night with each passing season.
I completely agree but how well do you think you can understand the body of water, the food source, and how they relate without spending time on the water. Do you think you can learn this from reading? I'm eager to learn new things, but to be honest I thought I knew a lot when I was young and the main thing I have learned since is how little I know. If someone can tell me how to know where to fish and what to throw before I even hit the water I'm open to it. What I've found in real life it there are plenty of people that will tell you where/how to fish but you got to get out there and figure it out for yourself. You can learn a lot from reading books and from this forum but the best lessons are taught by the fish themselves.
On 8/28/2018 at 10:12 PM, Big Rick said:The one thing I've not seen covered here is PRACTICE pitching, skipping, and casting. The biggest fish are LAZY and don't move a lot to eat. It would probably depress us all to know how many big fish watched our bait land a few inches off target and let it go by. Catching the bigger fish is a game of inches.
Amen, what you are talking about is the basics. That putting the lure where it needs to be along with developing that sense of knowing when you get that subtle bite is the blocking and tackling of fishing. The industry will tell you can master these by buying the right equipment. I think the key is time on the water (or backyard if necessary).
geo g reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 2:33 AM, rejesterd said:Bigger bass are older bass, and older bass are smarter predators. Over time, they become more and more nocturnal. They mostly feed at night and chill out during the day. So during the day, you have to trigger them more into biting. There are exceptions, but that's the main idea. You have to trigger them with fast flashy/wobbly/erratic moving baits, or with very slow-moving baits of a particular color that works for that waterway. So part of it is trial and error in experimenting with color and somewhat with presentation.
At the same time, recognize that bigger fish will still instinctively stage up on places that will allow food to come to them more easily during the day. They're not in full hunting mode, but they'll still eat things if it's not too much effort for them. That means they're mostly out where the current is, or under docks/pads hiding in the shadows.
Big bass are not smarter then smaller ones. Smaller ones are just way more prominent in all bodies of water by sheer numbers. Big bass have a brain the size of a small pea. They do not learn behaviors like a bear, wolf, or large cats, with a mother that has to teach them these behaviors. No mother bass teaches them anything. Their brain has no section capable of learning. They react to stimuli they encounter in their environment, this is programed through millions of years of existence. In the animal kingdom they are dumb compared to other living organisms, but they will respond to certain stimuli they encounter in their environment. Skilled Fisherman key in on these programed behaviors, and raise their odds at catching.
Catt reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 10:39 PM, Tennessee Boy said:I completely agree but how well do you think you can understand the body of water, the food source, and how they relate without spending time on the water. Do you think you can learn this from reading? I'm eager to learn new things, but to be honest I thought I knew a lot when I was young and the main thing I have learned since is how little I know. If someone can tell me how to know where to fish and what to throw before I even hit the water I'm open to it. What I've found in real life it there are plenty of people that will tell you where/how to fish but you got to get out there and figure it out for yourself. You can learn a lot from reading books and from this forum but the best lessons are taught by the fish themselves.
You can learn a body of water from topographical map study.
You can learn the food sources & their seasonal movements by reading information from your regional biologists.
With this basic information I now know where to spend my time on the water.
The more time you spend on the water in the correct locations the better understanding you'll have of the two.
Now it becomes a process of elimination and duplication.
Eliminate patterns and waters that are non-productive
Duplicate patterns and waters that are productive
It's that dang simple ????
Alan Reed reply :
It seems there are two different thoughts on this subject I hope I am not over simplifying these to much:
1. It is an art, a mystical unexplainable difference in what makes any angler better than another at catching bigger fish consistently.
2. It is scientific method that says study and understand the waters, how fish move seasonally, what they eat and then you will find catch the bigger fish.
Is that a fair assessment of what has been said?
Tennessee Boy reply :
@Catt I think we agree but I'm going to argue with you just for the fun of it. ????
When I think about the difference between the best fishermen and myself, I think about Jason Lambert's 100 lb FLW win on Kentucky Lake in May. This was on my favorite lake so I payed close attention.
What did Jason know?
He knew to fish ledges on Kentucky Lake....Duh
He caught his fish on the most obvious spots on the map. These were major community holes. Any serious bass fisherman who has a basic understanding of what structure is would want to fish these spots. His knowledge of the lake was no better than mine or any serious angler.
I carefully watched all of the live coverage and the show he did the day after the tournament. I was very impress with how well he could read his electronics. I could tell that boat position was much more important to him than it typically is to me. Other than those two things, I don't know that he does anything different from what I do when fishing ledges on Kentucky Lake. He caught large fish quickly on community holes using common lures that are very popular on the lake. Maybe he has a secret that he's not telling but I'm not convinced that his superiority is in his knowledge of fishing, bass behavior, or the lake. One thing I am sure of, he is superior.
When we hit the water, I think most of us view it as a process of solving a puzzle, trying to figure out the right pattern to maximize our chances. This is a mental challenge but it is made possible by our ability to catch fish. Imagine a two man tournament between a fishery biologist who is recognized for his expertise on largemouth bass but has never been fishing a day in his life and a guy who can't read but has fished 200 days a year for most of his life. Who would you pick to win?
On 8/29/2018 at 12:10 AM, Alan Reed said:It seems there are two different thoughts on this subject I hope I am not over simplifying these to much:
1. It is an art, a mystical unexplainable difference in what makes any angler better than another at catching bigger fish consistently.
2. It is scientific method that says study and understand the waters, how fish move seasonally, what they eat and then you will find catch the bigger fish.
Is that a fair assessment of what has been said?
Yes, I think you're assessment is accurate. I don't think anyone would argue that it's purely one or the other.
THANKS FOR STARTING A VERY INTERESTING THREAD!
Catt reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 12:18 AM, Tennessee Boy said:What did Jason know?
On 8/29/2018 at 12:18 AM, Tennessee Boy said:. I could tell that boat position was much more important to him than it typically is to me.
He knew what the structure was but more importantly he knew how to fish it effectively!
On 8/29/2018 at 12:18 AM, Tennessee Boy said:Imagine a two man tournament between a fishery biologist who is recognized for his expertise on largemouth bass but has never been fishing a day in his life and a guy who can't read but has fished 200 days a year for most of his life. Who would you pick to win?
Well duh! ????
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 12:38 AM, Catt said:He knew what the structure was but more importantly he knew how to fish it effectively!
I'm glad we agree ????. @Catt I think your earlier K.I.S.S. comment was about as spot on as you can get. Great discussion. Thanks.
Team9nine reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 12:10 AM, Alan Reed said:It seems there are two different thoughts on this subject I hope I am not over simplifying these to much:
1. It is an art, a mystical unexplainable difference in what makes any angler better than another at catching bigger fish consistently.
2. It is scientific method that says study and understand the waters, how fish move seasonally, what they eat and then you will find catch the bigger fish.
Is that a fair assessment of what has been said?
Other than a liitle verbiage liberty on the first point I'd say that covers it. Keeping in mind your original post/question specifically referenced the question from a tournament angler perspective. To that end, I agree with point 2 being the better answer up to the point of tournament competition. At that point, arguably everyone entered pretty much has all the biology/structure stuff covered well enough to say the playing field is pretty level. Yet certain anglers still tend to come out on or near the top more frequently.
At that point, point 1 becomes the bigger determiner in my mind. Not that it is anything mystical, but it is very hard to quantify and explain, and is not very likely repeatable.
That is the difference between science and art. Science is based on repeatability, art is not. You can buy the exact same equipment the best guys use, the same baits, boats, rods, reels and line. You can read every article they've ever written, or watch every video they've ever made. But you can never duplicate their experience, their history, the way their brain works. It's what makes every one of us unique. No matter how well they try and explain what makes them so good, it becomes a meaningless answer, because the real reason can't ever be duplicated by you or I. All we can do is create our own version of a great angler. Roland did it by creating "pattern fishing." Clunn by "seasonal patterns." Brauer by flipping/pitching. Vandam by pure "power fishing." And on and on. All very great, but all very different.
There is no "secret sauce" ingredient to being a great tournament angler. For everyone else who wants to be a better angler, there is point 2 ????
TOXIC reply :
Science + Art + Natural Talent = Winning formula.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:36 AM, Team9nine said:All we can do is create our own version of a great angler. Roland did it by creating "pattern fishing." Clunn by "seasonal patterns." Brauer by flipping/pitching. Vandam by pure "power fishing." And on and on. All very great, but all very different.
Your last post was very well stated. I find it interesting your comments above and the anglers you choose. Would it be fair to say the Roland and Clunn relied more on point 2 skills and Brauer and Vandam more on point 1?
rejesterd reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 10:59 PM, geo g said:Big bass are not smarter then smaller ones. Smaller ones are just way more prominent in all bodies of water by sheer numbers. Big bass have a brain the size of a small pea. They do not learn behaviors like a bear, wolf, or large cats, with a mother that has to teach them these behaviors. No mother bass teaches them anything. Their brain has no section capable of learning. They react to stimuli they encounter in their environment, this is programed through millions of years of existence. In the animal kingdom they are dumb compared to other living organisms, but they will respond to certain stimuli they encounter in their environment. Skilled Fisherman key in on these programed behaviors, and raise their odds at catching.
They are definitely smarter, and it's been proven in a lab that they can learn. Look up Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center. They react less and less to the same artificial baits over time, because they remember that it isn't real food. The difference is, fish in the wild don't get fed at regular intervals like they do in a lab, so their instinct to bite and find food often overrides their learned behavior. But older fish definitely become more and more nocturnal over time because it's simply easier to sneak up on prey in the dark. That's why most people will catch more big fish from dusk until dawn, and it's why tournament fishing is harder and requires more skill in getting those same big fish (with full bellies during the day) to keep biting.
greentrout reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:58 AM, rejesterd said:They are definitely smarter, and it's been proven in a lab that they can learn. Look up Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center. They react less and less to the same artificial baits over time, because they remember that it isn't real food. The difference is, fish in the wild don't get fed at regular intervals like they do in a lab, so their instinct to bite and find food often overrides their learned behavior. But older fish definitely become more and more nocturnal over time because it's simply easier to sneak up on prey in the dark. That's why most people will catch more big fish from dusk until dawn, and it's why tournament fishing is harder and requires more skill in getting those same big fish (with full bellies during the day) to keep biting.
Some never will never strike an artificial lure...never...and there is such a thing as superior genes for the bass...
good fishing...
geo g reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:58 AM, rejesterd said:They are definitely smarter, and it's been proven in a lab that they can learn. Look up Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center. They react less and less to the same artificial baits over time, because they remember that it isn't real food. The difference is, fish in the wild don't get fed at regular intervals like they do in a lab, so their instinct to bite and find food often overrides their learned behavior. But older fish definitely become more and more nocturnal over time because it's simply easier to sneak up on prey in the dark. That's why most people will catch more big fish from dusk until dawn, and it's why tournament fishing is harder and requires more skill in getting those same big fish (with full bellies during the day) to keep biting.
Remember this guys job is to do what he can to help promote company products. A bass is not going to remember what happened an hour ago, a day ago, or a week ago. A bass in the wild on normal size body of water may see a bait once a week, if that. Brain capacity just is not there to remember much, and not for long. All instincts., and programed behaviors. That's my opinion, your welcome to yours.
Team9nine reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:56 AM, Tennessee Boy said:Your last post was very well stated. I find it interesting your comments above and the anglers you choose. Would it be fair to say the Roland and Clunn relied more on point 2 skills and Brauer and Vandam more on point 1?
An interesting question, and one I think I would agree with you on. You could certainly make a strong argument that both figured out a part of the biology/behavior pattern before anyone else. A couple others that come to mind in this regard are Shin Fukae (FLW) and Buck Perry (non tournament).
On the other hand, I think the "technique experts" excelled more on nuance and skill/experience than on biology, guys like Ricky Green and Jimmy Houston (sp'baits), Larry Nixon (worm), Zell (Pop-R), Denny, Hank, Biffle and Thomas/Gliebe (flipping). Then there are guys like A-Mart that might be equal parts of both. In reality, all the greats probably have a mix of both, the interesting question might be to what degree/ratio.
Catt reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:58 AM, rejesterd said:They are definitely smarter, and it's been proven in a lab that they can learn. Look up Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center. They react less and less to the same artificial baits over time, because they remember that it isn't real food. The difference is, fish in the wild don't get fed at regular intervals like they do in a lab, so their instinct to bite and find food often overrides their learned behavior. But older fish definitely become more and more nocturnal over time because it's simply easier to sneak up on prey in the dark. That's why most people will catch more big fish from dusk until dawn, and it's why tournament fishing is harder and requires more skill in getting those same big fish (with full bellies during the day) to keep biting.
Absolutely false!
You have to consider all of Mr Jones research is done in a aquarium!
If bass remembered lures would it not stand to reason they would never hit a lure again but yet they do and that is proven every time one is caught on a lure!
More big bass are caught in daylight as darkness and that to is well documented!
A-Jay reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 1:58 AM, rejesterd said:They are definitely smarter, and it's been proven in a lab that they can learn. Look up Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center. They react less and less to the same artificial baits over time, because they remember that it isn't real food. The difference is, fish in the wild don't get fed at regular intervals like they do in a lab, so their instinct to bite and find food often overrides their learned behavior. But older fish definitely become more and more nocturnal over time because it's simply easier to sneak up on prey in the dark. That's why most people will catch more big fish from dusk until dawn, and it's why tournament fishing is harder and requires more skill in getting those same big fish (with full bellies during the day) to keep biting.
On 8/29/2018 at 2:05 AM, greentrout said:Some never will never strike an artificial lure...never...and there is such a thing as superior genes for the bass...
good fishing...
On 8/29/2018 at 5:30 AM, Catt said:
Absolutely false!
You have to consider all of Mr Jones research is done in a aquarium!
If bass remembered lures would it not stand to reason they would never hit a lure again but yet they do and that is proven every time one is caught on a lure!
More big bass are caught in daylight as darkness and that to is well documented!
I see I'm not alone on this one @Catt.
I am also of the opinion that the largest fish are very effective feeders.
Which does not mean lazy; Very Opportunistic perhaps but not lazy.
Can't imagine any prey simply swimming into a big basses mouth at any point.
IMO the #1 reason we as anglers struggle to catch the largest fish is we are not fishing where they are.
When we do - we catch them.
I say this all the time because I believe it to be true - put an average angler on water that holds above average fish, and Big things happen.
A-Jay
DINK WHISPERER reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 11:12 PM, Catt said:
You can learn a body of water from topographical map study.
You can learn the food sources & their seasonal movements by reading information from your regional biologists.
With this basic information I now know where to spend my time on the water.
The more time you spend on the water in the correct locations the better understanding you'll have of the two.
Now it becomes a process of elimination and duplication.
Eliminate patterns and waters that are non-productive
Duplicate patterns and waters that are productive
It's that dang simple ????
If it was that dang simple everybody would be catching em????
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 6:29 AM, DINK WHISPERER said:If it was that dang simple everybody would be catching em????
How is it harder?
greentrout reply :
How Smart Are Bass?
By Ralph Manns
https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smart_bass.html
Team9nine reply :
Here's another professional opinion on the subject from a recent BASS Times...all good stuff!
geo g reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 7:03 AM, greentrout said:How Smart Are Bass?
By Ralph Manns
https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smart_bass.html
Great article and it shows both sides of the issue. I'm right on with Bob Lusk, bass are not smart, memory does not last long, and they are instinctive, and programed to a number of conditions If you drop a bait close to their strike zone, you stand a good chance at a reaction either from hunger, or anger. Location, location, location that day, that hour, that minute are key. There not much learning going on in a bass mind. Instinct and programed reactions are the key factors, passed on through the genes. Thank you for this post.
Catt reply :
Please refer to "Dotty" out in California, she was caught multiple times & I'm pretty sure everytime was on a jig!
The Texas ShareLunker Program was established in 1986, since then 576 bass of 13 lbs or more have been enter into the program.
Observational data shows every bass was caught more than once. Now they can not say on what they were caught other than the one when it was entered. Research showed some "wounds" were within a couple months old.
greentrout reply :
I've had the good luck to fish fish only State lakes both less than 300 acres when they were first opened years ago. The catch rate was outstanding with chunky healthy bass. Fast forward a few years not so. Had to really work for them. State lake manager said our boys and girls are now educated -- plenty of bass in there.
Now I know this is anecdotal and not scientific but have seen small waters like this in my recreational LMB fishing over the last 20 yrs. or so.
good fishing...
Mobasser reply :
I read an article years ago about the competition factor among bass. I think it's true. Smaller fish are a lot more likely to dart out and strike before another fish does. This could explain why many fisherman catch more numbers than size, even fishing over prime areas. I don't think big bass are"smarter". They are creatures of instinct too.
slonezp reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 6:54 PM, Catt said:Learn: gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
Learn your body of water; even if you bank fish.
Learn the food source; most under discussed subject on this site.
Have confidence in yourself; know your strengths & more importantly admit your weaknesses!
K.I.S.S. ????
Trophy or tournament fisherman use simple techniques to perfection to consistently catch bass.
Anglers often respond to failure and frustration by over-complicating theory and technique. As much as it helps our egos to regard a difficult task as complex, this type of thinking is often the biggest obstacle between you and your fishing success.
Agreed. I have learned as much about bass while fishing for panfish, as I have fishing for bass. I have caught bass, pike, musky, and catfish, all while fishing for bluegills, perch, and crappie. The common denominator being the forage. Where do I fish for panfish? Wherever their forage is.
A fishes (notice I didn't say bass) instinct tells it to eat, protect itself, procreate, and that there is safety in numbers. In layman's terms, fish are eating, hiding, screwing, or just hanging out. These habits change seasonally and daily. A fisherman is a predator. He needs to locate fish that are eating, hiding, screwing, or just hanging out. The potential for larger fish lies within all 4 actions but I believe most of the year, the larger fish are solitary. They are hiding. Fish cover and structure near deep water....Uh-Oh a Buck Perry reference.
Spankey reply :
On 8/28/2018 at 9:57 PM, Catt said:Y'all over complicating it ????
I don't care if ya fish every day or once a week ya gotta understand your body of water, the food source, & how those two relate to each other morning, noon, & night with each passing season.
Y'all can spend all the time on the water you can but until you understand those 2 you're just fishing!
Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
I respect your opinion but I think you're off base when it comes to putting time in on the water.
Mobasser reply :
Even though many will disagree, I think color, size of bait, and type of bait have a lot to do with catching truly large fish.I believe through much of the fishing season, big bass are not apt to chase down a fast lure. This is why many are caught on slower jigs and soft plastics, which can present an easier meal, and/ or a larger meal. They are opportunist.Of course, this doesn't make it any easier catching them consistently!And in bass fishing, there are always variables. Big fish have been caught on small lures too, but most folks who catch them with consistency use baits that are slow moving, have good action, and are an easy target.It could be a large buzzbait, swimbait, or plastic worm. All these lures fit this criteria
Catt reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 9:17 AM, Spankey said:I respect your opinion but I think you're off base when it comes to putting time in on the water.
Elaborate ????
Spankey reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 9:20 AM, Catt said:
Elaborate ????
I agree with you 100% on baitfish/natural food source movement from season to season but this movement on a daily, weekly and monthly basis would be easier to find, identify and track if you could apply yourself on a more consistant basis on that single body of water. I fish a lake with an abundance of baitfish types. Alot of baitfish movement. But this movement of baitfish (clearly visible movement) is not always because they are being chased down by bass or other larger fish. I respect your opinions and posts. I know you spend more time on the water than I, I can't help that. I'm out as much as I can and applying myself and try to use the best tactics as I can.
Mobasser reply :
When I started there were no you tube videos. I read as much as I could. I still love reading about bass fishing. But it was time spent on the water where I learned the most.I still try to learn something from each fishing trip. Time on the water= experience, the best teacher of all.
Spankey reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 8:54 AM, Mobasser said:I read an article years ago about the competition factor among bass. I think it's true. Smaller fish are a lot more likely to dart out and strike before another fish does. This could explain why many fisherman catch more numbers than size, even fishing over prime areas. I don't think big bass are"smarter". They are creatures of instinct too.
This is the exact scenario I believe I was in this past weekend. I fished back to back mornings in an area that had been holding some bigger bass. I felt they were there. I believe I was seeing them on the finder. 13-15 ft. of water. Had caught a few nice ones there prior.
I had in my head that Drop Shotting, Split Shotting and Shakey Head was my answer to a few more nice fish in that area. I caught 22 bass over the weekend and couldn't stretch one to be more than 12". I had some big hits, very few, but hits bigger than the ones I've had hooked up. I have to believe they were the bigger fish there. A case where the smaller fish were more aggressive. Lack of not having hook up with those suspected bigger fish.......my fault.......I don't know. Not for the lack a trying. Don't feel I was asleep at the wheel.
Maybe I should have switched tactics. Maybe threw a different plastic. Should have jigged fished the second day? Not sure. Two days of dinks and runts. Not like I've never been there before.
DINK WHISPERER reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 6:53 AM, Alan Reed said:How is it harder?
How is it not?
Alan Reed reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 4:32 PM, DINK WHISPERER said:How is it not?
I believe Catt has already covered that. I was asking for your constructive conversation if you believe different.
mattkenzer reply :
IMHO, there is a huge difference between 3 hrs of productive fishing and 10 hrs of non-productive fishing.
Only increased knowledge of the lakes structure, cover, food source(s) and how everything relates to time of day and weather will you be able to decrease your non-productive fishing time.
Sure, time on the water will help decrease the non-productive time over many hours of casting where as Google Earth, Topo Maps, and the Food Source(s) Knowledge will speed up your productive fishing times.
Many professional anglers spend their practice days checking areas they have identified via options above without ever making a cast. You can be guaranteed they are looking for a food source and what food source it is!! @Catt
Catt reply :
@slonezp interesting you should mention perch fishing leading to catching bass.
I have a friend that I fish with several times a year, he is excellent at finding perch. While we start out bass fishing we always end up on areas that hold perch.
He asked me the other day why I hardly ever perch jerk with him to which I replied, ya ever noticed while you're perch jerking I continue to catch bass from these same areas?
DINK WHISPERER reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 5:55 PM, Alan Reed said:I believe Catt has already covered that. I was asking for your constructive conversation if you believe different.
I know what Catt said, I asked you.
In early comments it was stated that time on the water teaches you nothing but how to cast. This is not true at all.
A fish is going to do what it wants regardless of what you want it to be doing or what a book tells you that it should be doing. How many times have fish been caught on lures that look absolutely nothing like what they would ever eat in nature?
Given, patterns do work a lot of times but not always and not on every body of water. If anybody really believes that all it takes is a topo map and some research in biology then I'll tell y'all what. We meet on a body of water that I've finished for years and you've never been on. Do all the research and study you want on said body of water. Then go out there and show me what you learned. After that I'll go out there and show you what time on the water in that specific place has taught me. All I am saying is there is no replacement for time on the water and figuring things out on your own. And by you and I I mean anybody in general not just us specifically.
Catt reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 10:25 PM, DINK WHISPERER said:In early comments it was stated that time on the water teaches you nothing but how to cast. This is not true at all.
You're right it aint true at all cause it aint what I said!
This is what I said ????
Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 10:37 PM, Catt said:Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
Here the deal for me when it comes to the importance of spending time on the water.
I'm all for hitting the water with as much information as you can. Finding a good working pattern is about solving a puzzle. This takes time. Anything you can do to help solve the puzzle before you hit the water reduces the time it takes to solve the puzzle and that's obviously a good thing.
The mistake I think many people make is they think the reason they can't catch fish is because they lack the knowledge necessary to catch fish. Now this certainly could be the case. If you are fishing a bare hook in 60ft of water, then no amount of time on the water is going to help until you realize you are doing it all wrong. What I'm saying is that information is no substitute for time on the water. I see questions on this forum like "What's better a worm or a lizard?" You can ask this question and you will get lots of answers. I'm sure you can find plenty of articles that will suggest when to fish a worm and when to fish a lizard. I think this question is best answered by the fish. When people ask questions like this they are trying to solve a problem with information that should be solved with time on the water. The thing is you need basic fishing skills to get the answers from the fish. The better you are at fishing a t-rig, the faster you can determine if the fish prefer a worm or a lizard on a particular day. So how do you get better at fishing a t-rig? It might help some to read an article on t-rig fishing but that's still no substitute for time on the water perfecting the skills that make you a good t-rig fisherman.
DINK WHISPERER reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 10:37 PM, Catt said:
You're right it aint true at all cause it aint what I said!
This is what I said ????
Spending time on the water at the wrong places doing the wrong things only teaches you how to cast.
And what shows us what those wrong places and things are? Time on the water maybe?
Catt reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 11:43 PM, DINK WHISPERER said:And what shows us what those wrong places and things are? Time on the water maybe?
Or learning your body of water & the food source available ????
@Tennessee Boy & @DINK WHISPERER if y'all can not determine where productive structure is by map study & knowing the available food source no amount of time on the water is gonna help ya!
I promise you every Pro I've ever been around, fished with, & against studies the next tournament lake before they're boat ever gets wet!
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 12:57 AM, Catt said:Or learning your body of water & the food source available ????
@Tennessee Boy & @DINK WHISPERER if y'all can not determine where productive structure is by map study & knowing the available food source no amount of time on the water is gonna help ya!
NO ONE IS SAYING DON'T LOOK AT A MAP BEFORE YOU GO FISHING!!!!
I can say that if you can't tell when you've got a fish on the line, no amount of time studying a map is "gonna help ya!" but I'm sure no one is implying otherwise.
I keep my maps on my iPad and look at them constantly even if I'm not planning a fishing trip. In the 90s I took a laptop out on the lake, hooked it up to my sonar and GPS and map the structure myself. I agree maps are a great tool and can save you valuable time on the water. I also know a guy who has fished out of the same marina 2-3 times a week for 20 years who doesn't need a map because it's in his head. Over time he has gained a strong understanding of the food sources and seasonal patterns. There are things that you need to know to get to the next level, that is certain. We can all improve our fishing by improving our knowledge of the sport. There are also things that only time on the water can do for you and I think that aspect of fishing is often undervalued. Basic fishing skills, casting, knowing what your lure is doing, feeling the bite, these are critical and often overlooked. Is it that hard to understand what I'm trying to say?
Todd2 reply :
I see both sides of the coin here but I'm definitely in the "Time on the water camp". I've fished mainly three bodies of water this Summer. 1.) My normal stained lake. 2.) A new clear creek for Smallies 3.) A new clear pond I now have access too.
I don't know the primary food source. In the lake, I'd bet its Gizzard Shad and Crawdads. But I bet Bluegill and Salamanders aren't far behind. In the pond and creek, probably some of the same with the exception of the Shad.
I catch fish using the same techniques in all three. Soft plastics, Jigs, and Poppers have been my biggest producer this Summer. Especially the Ned. The Ned works well in all three spots. These are all lures that I have developed confidence in with time on the water.
My number one producer all time is a Texas rig worm. It doesn't look like a Shad or a Crawdad.
DINK WHISPERER reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 12:57 AM, Catt said:
Or learning your body of water & the food source available ????
@Tennessee Boy & @DINK WHISPERER if y'all can not determine where productive structure is by map study & knowing the available food source no amount of time on the water is gonna help ya!
I promise you every Pro I've ever been around, fished with, & against studies the next tournament lake before they're boat ever gets wet!
I'm no tournament Pro but I can tell you I don't sit around and look at maps or study food sources. Yet I'm still pretty darn successful most of the time. I get out and drive around scanning structure and determine lures/techniques based on water clarity and weather conditions. And asides from gin clear water (which I don't fish), I don't worry too much about forage. If a fish only hit baits that look like something they usually eat, we would never catch much.
But hey, maybe that's why I'm not a pro ????. Or maybe it's cuz I work with the Army Corps of Engineers 6 days a week like a slave.... Who knows.
Tight lines
slonezp reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 9:34 PM, Catt said:@slonezp interesting you should mention perch fishing leading to catching bass.
I have a friend that I fish with several times a year, he is excellent at finding perch. While we start out bass fishing we always end up on areas that hold perch.
He asked me the other day why I hardly ever perch jerk with him to which I replied, ya ever noticed while you're perch jerking I continue to catch bass from these same areas?
With this year being the exception, I fish for panfish as much as I do for bass. I've said here before that it is wise to learn the habits off all the fish in the lake.
Here in IL, the perch spawn right after ice out on our inland lakes (a little later in Lake Michigan). Water temps <50* The bluegills will target perch fry and the bass will target both the bluegills and the perch fry. Once I locate the bluegills, I will use either small perch colored crankbaits or perch colored crappie jigs underneath a float to catch bass, and I do quite well.
rejesterd reply :
On 8/29/2018 at 5:30 AM, Catt said:
Absolutely false!
You have to consider all of Mr Jones research is done in a aquarium!
If bass remembered lures would it not stand to reason they would never hit a lure again but yet they do and that is proven every time one is caught on a lure!
More big bass are caught in daylight as darkness and that to is well documented!
As I said, there is a key difference between bass in the wild vs bass in an aquarium: the ones in the aquarium are fed real food on a regular basis. Bass in the wild don't know when their next meal is coming. So their instinct to bite generally overrides learned behavior. But the tests performed did prove that they hit the same lures less and less over time.. They remembered as far back as 3 months. What exactly about them being in an aquarium invalidates his findings? And try not to yell at me this time!
RichF reply :
This thread has gotten way too "technical." Science and technology are making anglers think way too hard about how to catch bass. I say just get better at fishing. The better you can present a bait, the more likely a fish is going to eat it.
Catt reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 8:50 AM, rejesterd said:What exactly about them being in an aquarium invalidates his findings?
On 8/30/2018 at 8:50 AM, rejesterd said:Bass in the wild don't know when their next meal is coming. So their instinct to bite generally overrides learned behavior
rejesterd reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 6:35 PM, Catt said:
His findings were simply that bass have the ability to learn and remember. Putting bass in an aquarium doesn't change their brain capacity. He didn't say "they'll never bite the same lure twice", but their memory does factor into it. That's why fishing pressure is considered a thing by pros. That's why KVD and others will talk about how important it is to "trigger the bite". If bigger bass acted no different during the day vs night, everyone who fishes small ponds would be catching monsters every day they go out.. because you don't have to search for them in those places.
Catt reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 7:41 PM, rejesterd said:Putting bass in an aquarium doesn't change their brain capacity
He's forcing an outcome ????
The bass has no choice but to see the lure presented to them every single time it's presented.
Even on highly pressured bodies of water how often does that same bass see a lure repeatedly?
Mobasser reply :
I used to read a lot of stuff from Doug Hannon. He stated that the one bait that bass can't seem to remember is a plastic worm. Myself, I believe this.Also this has been a good, productive thread, and as I've read through, the thing that keeps coming back to me is location.If your throwing cranks and the bite shuts down, being able to locate a new spot and catch fish, regardless of what lure you use, is the hardest part of bass fishing.Doing this quickly- especially in tournament fishing is what makes a winner. But all of this applies to the weekend fisherman too
Team9nine reply :
Ponder this: Do bass remember your lures?
Excerpt from Illinois Outdoor News
February 6, 2014 by Ralph Loos Editor
...studies by Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center, suggests that largemouth bass are “conditioned” in various ways. Along with memory research, Jones took a look at whether a fish becomes conditioned to avoid certain lures they might see swimming by over and over.
“There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that,” Jones said of his study. “For example, spinnerbaits, once a dominant presentation for top pros, seem a useless bait today.
Swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced old lures.”
Jones, widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost bass experts, writes about that in his book “Knowing Bass: The Scientific Approach To Catching More Fish.”
Four types of learning
According to Jones, the four main methods of learning are associated learning, habitation, spatial and prey images.
He says to think of associated learning as “trial-and-error” learning.
“The fact that bass are capable of associative learning is proven by laboratory experiments where the animal is taught to link two types of stimuli, such as a certain colored light with an ensuing electric shock,”
Jones writes. “Bass readily learn these associations, both in the lab and in the field, although not as fast as some other species.”
Spatial learning involves bass learning to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out their territories. According to Jones, bass in his studies have been able to find their way through an underwater maze to reach a desired point.
Habituation learning involves bass gradually becoming less sensitive to specific stimulations. Jones says examples of this learning would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.
The fourth type of bass learning, prey images, is the ability to develop and recognize a shad or crawfish as prey.
“Given enough positive experience with a certain prey type, a bass will gradually come to actively seek out that specific prey,” Jones noted. “Prey species, for their part, often counter the bass’ efforts by changing their signature stimuli, often through the use of camouflage.”
Like humans, bass are capable of different types of learning, but individual bass learn at different rates.
Jones even cited a four-year study by the University of Illinois that documented recapture rates of largemouth bass. The average bass was caught twice each season, but some bass were caught up to 16 times in a single season.
Bass memory for lures
...Jones meticulously tested bass memory for lures, and his study suggests that indeed, bass do remember.
In the study, bass were allowed to strike a minnow lure for a five-minute test period. In the beginning, most strikes came in the first one to three minutes. By the end of the five-minute period, the bass had learned to ignore the lure because it provided no positive reward – meaning there was no food to be had by striking the lure. The bass were then divided into two groups, with no additional testing, for different lengths of time.
After two weeks, the bass in one group were re-exposed to the same lure, again for five minutes. The response of those bass was about one-tenth of what it was in the initial exposure. According to Jones, that indicated that the bass had retained a strong memory of the lure during the two-week interval. And it was a negative memory.
After two months, the second group of bass still tested below the original response level.
“The results show that under some circumstances, bass can remember lures for at least up to three months and perhaps much, much longer,” Jones concluded.
Tennessee Boy reply :
There has been a ton of research on learning in Bass and other species in addition to Dr Jones work. Everything I've read suggest fish can learn to avoid a hook to some degree. None of it suggest they become uncatchable. Fish react, they don't reason and a fish may learn to react with fear to a lure to some small degree. That doesn't make them uncatchable, it just makes them a little harder to catch.
I went to the Cheesecake Factory last Saturday. Even though I was stuffed I couldn't resist getting a big piece of cheesecake for dessert. I was miserable for the next 10 hours and didn't go to sleep until 4:00AM. I learned my lesson and will never do it again....and I say this every time I go to the Cheesecake Factory. I repeat the same mistakes and I like to think I'm smarter than most bass. The desire to eat is hard to overcome.
rejesterd reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 8:20 PM, Catt said:
He's forcing an outcome ????
The bass has no choice but to see the lure presented to them every single time it's presented.
Even on highly pressured bodies of water how often does that same bass see a lure repeatedly?
But that outcome isn't fake.
No one knows how often bass see the same lure, but the point is, fishing pressure is considered real by pros for a simple reason: bigger bass won't hit the same lure over and over again throughout the day. Throughout the year? Yes, of course they do. But memory and learning do factor into how they act. It's not like they think critically about anything, but they're smart enough not to bite the same thing over and over when it doesn't fill their belly and pulls them out of the water. And again, my main point isn't about fishing pressure, it's about bass becoming more nocturnal over time. They learn that it's easier to ambush prey in lower light conditions. So during the day, you generally have to trigger them more into biting.
Catt reply :
When you're controlling all of the stimuli your forcing an outcome.
The bass has no choice but to be where is, it has no choice but to see the lure repeatedly put in front of it.
I do believe there are things in the wild that condition certain behavior. Weekend warriors absolutely effect behavior, bass are far easy to catch during the middle of the week than on weekends.
Mobasser reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 10:10 PM, Catt said:When you're controlling all of the stimuli your forcing an outcome.
The bass has no choice but to be where is, it has no choice but to see the lure repeatedly put in front of it.
I do believe there are things in the wild that condition certain behavior. Weekend warriors absolutely effect behavior, bass are far easy to catch during the middle of the week than on weekends.
Yes. In 1989 I caught a bass of almost 9lbs.A grape Mann's 6" jelly worm Texas rigged.Its the only fish I ever mounted. When the taxidermest opened this fish, there were 3 2" crawfish in her stomach- 2 were partially decomposed. Also, a 2" piece of plastic worm, no hook or line attached. Even with all this, that fish still ate my plastic worm.But, the big question is why? Was this just the normal feeding habit of this bass. Was she still hungry, or just being an opportunist? Obviously, she had eaten plastic worms before - at least once.But how much time elapsed between this?For all these years, when I look at my old mount I still wonder about this. One of the ultimate questions in bass fishing for sure.I too think the there are some things in nature that condition behavior too.
Choporoz reply :
Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing
Catt reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:03 AM, Choporoz said:Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing
I do have a minor degree in the Philosophy of science, currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism.
While I aint a marine biologist I do understand scientific research.
mattkenzer reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:19 AM, Catt said:currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism
Don't think for one minute i didn't have to Google that .... 
greentrout reply :
Smart Bass? Dumb Bass?
By Ronald F. Dodson, Ph.D.
https://www.bassresource.com/fishing/smart_bass.html
In Mississippi's small lakes Florida strain are stocked with the number 1 goal to grow trophy class LMB...
good fishing...
J Francho reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:03 AM, Choporoz said:Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing
Therein lies the rub. You can't always apply a theory to wild fish due to all the variables, and isolation of those variables removes the wild aspect. All we can learn from lab experiments is that the results are possible, but that doesn't mean it's actually happening in the wild.
Pretty cool discussion.
Also, I'm qualified to answer because I have a degree in hard knocks.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:19 AM, Catt said:I do have a minor degree in the Philosophy of science, currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism.
Now I don't see any possible way that studying epistemology can help you catch more fish. Empiricism....maybe if you believe in my time on the water theory. ????
J Francho reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 1:24 AM, Tennessee Boy said:Now I don't see any possible way that studying epistemology can help you catch more fish.
I'm skeptical.
OCdockskipper reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:19 AM, Catt said:While I aint a marine biologist I do understand scientific research.
...And you slept at a Holiday Inn last night...????
Mobasser reply :
On 8/30/2018 at 9:23 PM, Team9nine said:Ponder this: Do bass remember your lures?
Excerpt from Illinois Outdoor News
February 6, 2014 by Ralph Loos Editor
...studies by Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center, suggests that largemouth bass are “conditioned” in various ways. Along with memory research, Jones took a look at whether a fish becomes conditioned to avoid certain lures they might see swimming by over and over.
“There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that,” Jones said of his study. “For example, spinnerbaits, once a dominant presentation for top pros, seem a useless bait today.
Swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced old lures.”
Jones, widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost bass experts, writes about that in his book “Knowing Bass: The Scientific Approach To Catching More Fish.”
Four types of learning
According to Jones, the four main methods of learning are associated learning, habitation, spatial and prey images.
He says to think of associated learning as “trial-and-error” learning.
“The fact that bass are capable of associative learning is proven by laboratory experiments where the animal is taught to link two types of stimuli, such as a certain colored light with an ensuing electric shock,”
Jones writes. “Bass readily learn these associations, both in the lab and in the field, although not as fast as some other species.”
Spatial learning involves bass learning to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out their territories. According to Jones, bass in his studies have been able to find their way through an underwater maze to reach a desired point.
Habituation learning involves bass gradually becoming less sensitive to specific stimulations. Jones says examples of this learning would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.
The fourth type of bass learning, prey images, is the ability to develop and recognize a shad or crawfish as prey.
“Given enough positive experience with a certain prey type, a bass will gradually come to actively seek out that specific prey,” Jones noted. “Prey species, for their part, often counter the bass’ efforts by changing their signature stimuli, often through the use of camouflage.”
Like humans, bass are capable of different types of learning, but individual bass learn at different rates.
Jones even cited a four-year study by the University of Illinois that documented recapture rates of largemouth bass. The average bass was caught twice each season, but some bass were caught up to 16 times in a single season.
Bass memory for lures
...Jones meticulously tested bass memory for lures, and his study suggests that indeed, bass do remember.
In the study, bass were allowed to strike a minnow lure for a five-minute test period. In the beginning, most strikes came in the first one to three minutes. By the end of the five-minute period, the bass had learned to ignore the lure because it provided no positive reward – meaning there was no food to be had by striking the lure. The bass were then divided into two groups, with no additional testing, for different lengths of time.
After two weeks, the bass in one group were re-exposed to the same lure, again for five minutes. The response of those bass was about one-tenth of what it was in the initial exposure. According to Jones, that indicated that the bass had retained a strong memory of the lure during the two-week interval. And it was a negative memory.
After two months, the second group of bass still tested below the original response level.
“The results show that under some circumstances, bass can remember lures for at least up to three months and perhaps much, much longer,” Jones concluded.
This is interesting too. The " trends" come and go.Now "froggin" is hot. Spinnerbaits are not used as much. Have bass become conditioned to spinnerbaits, or have they just gone out of style? Can they become conditioned to frog baits? Most are fished over heavy thick cover where a bass may not even get a good look at them.Hollow frog baits are not new, having been around for decades.This is simply a popular fad in fishing now.With certain baits, it's a " now or never " strike. I don't really think bass can become conditioned to this type of bait.Maybe on a small pond, if that's all you throw, on big lakes probably not.Fast reaction strikes are different.The fish don't have as much time to look these baits over.
Team9nine reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 2:22 AM, Mobasser said:This is interesting too. The " trends" come and go.Now "froggin" is hot. Spinnerbaits are not used as much. Have bass become conditioned to spinnerbaits, or have they just gone out of style? Can they become conditioned to frog baits? Most are fished over heavy thick cover where a bass may not even get a good look at them.Hollow frog baits are not new, having been around for decades.This is simply a popular fad in fishing now.With certain baits, it's a " now or never " strike. I don't really think bass can become conditioned to this type of bait.Maybe on a small pond, if that's all you throw, on big lakes probably not.Fast reaction strikes are different.The fish don't have as much time to look these baits over.
Yeah, I held off buying a Chatterbait for years because I thought the bass would easily get conditioned to them within a year or two - that turned out to be a bad decision
J Francho reply :
Frogs have been hot for a decade, and in my experience, spinnerbaits always work when they do.
Mobasser reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 2:36 AM, J Francho said:Frogs have been hot for a decade, and in my experience, spinnerbaits always work when they do.
Yes, both have always been good
On 8/30/2018 at 9:23 PM, Team9nine said:
Catt reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 12:03 AM, Choporoz said:Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing
Science does have controls
Operational (Observational) Science: a systematic approach to understanding that uses observable, testable, repeatable, and falsifiable experimentation to understand how nature commonly behaves.
The role of the human is to observe not interfere ????
Todd2 reply :
Running a Spinnerbait repeatedly past tank fish wouldn't exactly reproduce real world scenarios but it does give some insight into Bass behavior. The problem ( which is good for us) with that is every Shad, Bream, or Crawdad they suck in "reprograms" the fish that moving objects are tasty. At least that's how I picture it working.
Catt reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 4:21 AM, Todd2 said:Running a Spinnerbait repeatedly past tank fish wouldn't exactly reproduce real world scenarios but it does give some insight into Bass behavior. The problem ( which is good for us) with that is every Shad, Bream, or Crawdad they suck in "reprograms" the fish that moving objects are tasty. At least that's how I picture it working.
That's pretty accurate ????
Mobasser reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 4:18 AM, Catt said:
Science does have controls
Operational (Observational) Science: a systematic approach to understanding that uses observable, testable, repeatable, and falsifiable experimentation to understand how nature commonly behaves.
The role of the human is to observe not interfere ????
Agree Catt. How can you test anything without some control? Just setting up is control, before the test is even started. Performing an accurate test on how well fish can remember and reject certain lures would take a long time.
WVU-SCPA reply :
There is a lot of good points in this thread. Catt's point of knowing what is going on in body of water is spot on.
We have a weekly "lunker" tournament on a 340 acre lake that is very predictable. If you went back and plotted the biggest fish caught each week over the last 3 years you would absolutely see a pattern for location, time of year, and technique.
There would be anomalies, but that's why it is still called fishing and all the pros don't have accounting degrees. However you can increase your probability of catching bigger fish by learning the who, what, when, where of the lake.
TOXIC reply :
My problem with "controlled" experiments is that the results are only good in that controlled environment. The tank experiments don't include changes in Barometric Pressure, Moon Phase, water color, water current, water temprature, structure, vegetation, spawn cycle or any other of a thousand variables that change in any body of water during any number of events or seasons. It only proves that bass in that controlled environment, with those conditions, react that way.
Team9nine reply :
That's the difference between pure science and applied science. Initially, you have to be able to control the variables.
Catt reply :
Applied science is the application of existing scientific knowledge to practical applications, like technology or inventions. Within natural science, disciplines that are basic science, also called pure science, develop basic information to predict and perhaps explain and understand phenomena in the natural world
A-Jay reply :
Been following this one . . .
Plenty of superior view points offered.
Almost Dead of Winter-like in it's thoroughness.
When it comes to bass & learning 'the likelihood and or ability' might come down to survival instincts vs the ability to reason. Applying human characteristics to other species although common, seems insulting to both.
I do believe it's seriously counter productive when training my dogs.
I could not survive is their world and without thumbs most anything else is doomed in mine.
And despite having some basic survival & self preservation skills as well as the ability to reason (so I'm told), I've been known to step into the 'knucklehead line' far more often than I'd like to admit.
A-Jay
Tennessee Boy reply :
It's very important to remember that scientific experiments are conducted to prove a hypothesis. I think all Jones was trying to prove was that a bass is capable of learning to recognize a fishing lure and that it can change their behavior for two months or longer. My personal conclusion from reading his book is that he proved his point and it's something I should keep in mind as a fisherman. I assume that fish in the wild have the same learning capacity as fish in the lab. It seems reasonable to expect that the complex world that fish experience in the wild would make learning more difficult. Dr Jones exposed fish to a single lure for five minutes, I would assume that some fish on some lakes might get much more exposure to lures over a lifetime and this might improve their chances of learning to recognize lures. Exactly how his research translate to the real world and if and how we should change our fishing because of it is a judgement we all have to make. To me it's all just more valuable information to consider as I pursue these fascinating creatures that I've spent so much of my life trying to understand.
I've really enjoyed reading everyone else's thoughts on this research. This is good stuff.
DINK WHISPERER reply :
But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there dumb ones like in human society? ????
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, DINK WHISPERER said:But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there "slow" ones like in human society? ????
Dr. Jones' learning experiments tested bass in groups of six and I don't think he says much about the differences in individual fish. As @Team9nine has already mentioned in this thread, some research on recapture rates have found large differences in the number of times individual fish are caught in a season. Is this because they are dumb or just more aggressive? Someone smarter than me will have to answer that.
Alan Reed reply :
I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.
On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.
Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?
Catt reply :
My question has always been, if bass "learn" not hit lures, why we still catching em on the same lures?
12poundbass reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:13 AM, Alan Reed said:I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.
On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.
Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?
Fish are curious. Wayne P posted this a year or more ago. It's pretty interesting.
Alan Reed reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:17 AM, Catt said:My question has always been, if bass "learn" not hit lures, why we still catching em on the same lures?
Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?
I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
Tennessee Boy reply :
I just pulled out the book to make sure I've got this right. Several groups of six bass were allowed to freely strike an artificial minnow for five minutes. The bass as a group hit the lure twenty four times on average. Half of the groups were retested two weeks later and they hit the same lure at one tenth the rate as in the first test. The other half of the groups were tested after three months and hit the lure a little more. It looks like they averaged about four strikes on the lure according to the graph.
Think about what it would mean if the results were exactly the same in the wild. You fish a pond that has never been fished. You throw a minnow lure in a spot that has six fish. You should get twenty four opportunities to catch a fish. Of course as you catch them the number of strikes would be reduces. It's safe to say you should catch several of the fish with a good chance of catching all six.
Now what if you are fishing on a pressured lake and you throw the same minnow lure in a spot that has six fish that have been educated to the same level as the ones in the experiment. You should expect two to four strikes if you don't hook any of them. We don't know if the strikes were concentrated to a few fish in the experiment or if they were evenly distributed among the six. You should probably expect to catch one for sure, maybe as many as four in this scenario.
Jones' results do not suggest that none of us should be catching any fish. I have no idea what percentage of the fish that see my lure actually strike it. I'm guessing it's less than one in six. So real life might be worse than the results from the lab.
Mobasser reply :
In Team9nines post, bass could possibly remember baits from 3 months ago. If this is correct, the fish that hit in June could know to reject a lure in late August.To observe bass over a longer period, in a natural environment, would be HUGE! We have cameras, divers, etc to observe fish for shorter periods in their natural envireoment. We've seen these things. But to watch how fish react for possibly up to a year with normal feeding habits, and with artificial lures? As far as I know, this hasn't been done yet.Being able to observe them in their natural surroundings, just doing their thing, would change fishing forever.
Tennessee Boy reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:42 AM, Alan Reed said:Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?
That's a great question. I know some people fish their spots but try to shake off the fish if they get hit. Could this teach the fish that the lure is not real? ????
Catt reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:42 AM, Alan Reed said:Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?
Why not?
No difference than fishing a 3-4 day tournament.
I've been fishing Toledo Bend for close to 50 yrs, I was catching em ring worms back then & I'm catching on ring worms today. I was catching on Stanley's spinnerbaits back then & I'm catching em on Stanley's spinnerbaits today. I was catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps back then & I'm catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps today's.
I'm also catching em the same structure today as I was 50 yrs ago.
I'm not alone, there are 300 tournaments a year on Toledo Bend/Rayburn with most having at least 100 anglers per tournament...do the math!
Bass are still hitting the same lures, although many are now a different name brand.
BassNJake reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:42 AM, Alan Reed said:I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
That's because it's fishing. Fishing is all about conflicting information.
What works today may or may not work tomorrow.
What works for 1 person does not for another at the same body of water.
To move to the next level, one must understand what level they are on.
If you're consistently finishing at the top; you have established that you can find and catch fish.
The next step is to fine tune your presentations in and around the spots you are already catching fish.
Be more thorough in recording the information from the bigger catches.
Put that data together to try and find some similarities surrounding your better catches.
On my lake the fish will move out toward the main channel when they are pulling water creating current.
Often you will find fish off of the points extending in the main channel. You can run this pattern all day, everyday when they are pulling water.
Thats all well and good if you want to have a decent finish and end up middle of the pack.
To win you find some of these points but they also need to have a channel bend along with scattered rock extending into the main channel. Now, you mark about 2 dozen of these and go running because there are always boats fishing the points and often it is a timing deal. Almost all of my biggest fish have come off of what they call the spot on a spot.
This is my simplified approach to tourney fishing:
Find the bait > find the fish > examine and break down the spot > find the spot on the spot = catch bigger fish
Alan Reed reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 2:08 AM, Catt said:
Why not?
No difference than fishing a 3-4 day tournament.
I've been fishing Toledo Bend for close to 50 yrs, I was catching em ring worms back then & I'm catching on ring worms today. I was catching on Stanley's spinnerbaits back then & I'm catching em on Stanley's spinnerbaits today. I was catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps back then & I'm catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps today's.
I'm also catching em the same structure today as I was 50 yrs ago.
I'm not alone, there are 300 tournaments a year on Toledo Bend/Rayburn with most having at least 100 anglers per tournament...do the math!
Bass are still hitting the same lures, although many are now a different name brand.
I don’t know, just seems to be widespread through out all levels and fishing communities. Maybe everyone is wrong.
Catt reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 2:24 AM, Alan Reed said:I don’t know, just seems to be widespread through out all levels and fishing communities. Maybe everyone is wrong.
The thought process of having a "off limits" time frame before a tournament was to allow for found patterns to change there by leveraging the playing field.
Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!
Alan Reed reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 2:31 AM, Catt said:
The thought process of having a "off limits" time frame before a tournament was to allow for found patterns to change there by leveraging the playing field.
Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!
Why shake them off if they don’t learn?
J Francho reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 2:36 AM, Alan Reed said:Why shake them off if they don’t learn?
The stress of catch and release might be what keeps them from biting again. The idea is they might bite the next day.
On 9/1/2018 at 2:31 AM, Catt said:Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!
I hate it in pre-fishing when I decide to stick a fish, and it's a brute. Oops, stuck the wrong one!
scaleface reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 1:13 AM, Alan Reed said:I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.
On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.
Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?
I have had large un-pressured smallmouths follow my canoe around like pet dogs . Best not allow a lure hang off the side or a rod and reel might be lost , talking this from experience . When the news of this fishery got out to the bass fishing world ,that type of behavior ended .
Team9nine reply :
On 8/31/2018 at 11:27 PM, Catt said:Applied science is the application of existing scientific knowledge to practical applications, like technology or inventions. Within natural science, disciplines that are basic science, also called pure science, develop basic information to predict and perhaps explain and understand phenomena in the natural world
Says who, you or Wikipedia just giving ya' a hard time...
On 9/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, DINK WHISPERER said:But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there dumb ones like in human society? ????
No, some are dumber than others...
On 9/1/2018 at 1:42 AM, Alan Reed said:Do you believe the day before a tournament we should continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?
I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
Yes and no.
No, because any fish you catch the day before is one you likely won't catch the next day. Some exceptions like bedders, etc.
Yes, because I don't believe the exact same fish stay in the exact same spot and have the exact same disposition from day to day. The fish you catch the day before likely wouldn't be sitting right there and catchable the next day. So, if that actually occurs, it doesn't matter whether you stick them or not.
WRB reply :
On 8/26/2018 at 6:31 AM, Alan Reed said:There seems to be a lot of information available for the beginning bass fisherman and how to get started and technique specific instruction. There is also a lot of information on seasonal movements and position on any given body of water to identify thr high percentage areas.
As a tournament Angler the obvious goal is to move to from catch more bass to catching more bigger bass. It is just trial and error on the water?
Both!
I know this isn't the answer you are looking for because there isn't a another answer.
My goal as a bass angler since a kid was catching big bass and became successfull doing it. Catching big bass consistantly requires fishing for them and I know that sounds contrite but it's true, you must dedicate yourself to that goal.
Tournament bass anglers have a different goal to 5 catch bass that weigh enough to earn a check, winning means you caught a heavier 5 bass limit then everyone else.
Your goal isn't targeting the biggest bass in the lake, it's targeting those adult size bass that weigh 4 lbs to 6 lbs in lieu of 2 lbs to 3 lbs.
Nearly every decent bass lake that supports tournaments has a good population of 4 lb to 6 lb adult size bass that few anglers target, those anglers that do are winning tournaments.
The adult bass can eat whatever they choose and that usually is larger size baitfish or any abundant prey source in locations that support a group of bass this size.
The biggest bass in the lake rarely group up with the aggressive 4 to 6 lb size bass unless the prey source is located in the same area.
Here is my suggestion;
1. Learn about adult size bass behavior.*
2. Learn about the preferred prey sources for adult size bass where you fish.
3. Use lures the have similar profile, color as the prey and can be presented effectively at the depth and location where the prey is abundant.
No panacea, no short cuts, lots of trail and error and time on the water.
Tom
* Bill Murphy, In Pursiut of Giant Bass is a good book on bass behavior.
Catt reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 2:36 AM, Alan Reed said:Why shake them off if they don’t learn?
Tournament fishing is what solidified in my mind if bass do remember lures it aint for long!
During pre-spawn through spawn the number of anglers on Toledo Bend on any given day is easily a thousand or more. It is very common to catch bass that show signs of being caught recently & caught more than once.
I have on one occasion caught a healthy 4# bass on a spinnerbait with a spinnerbait hanging out it mouth.
I've caught dozens of bass of various sizes with worm hooks in their gullet.
On 9/1/2018 at 6:14 AM, Team9nine said:Says who, you or Wikipedia
Philosophy of science text books ????
As stated before scientific research does have controls
Alan Reed reply :
On 9/1/2018 at 9:16 PM, Catt said:
Tournament fishing is what solidified in my mind if bass do remember lures it aint for long!
During pre-spawn through spawn the number of anglers on Toledo Bend on any given day is easily a thousand or more. It is very common to catch bass that show signs of being caught recently & caught more than once.
I have on one occasion caught a healthy 4# bass on a spinnerbait with a spinnerbait hanging out it mouth.
I've caught dozens of bass of various sizes with worm hooks in their gullet.
Philosophy of science text books ????
As stated before scientific research does have controls
I have caught the same bass with the same lure within 30 minutes. I knew it was the same bass because it broke me off right at the boat and still had the other lure in its mouth.
I had the same thing happen recently with a 5 lbs bass however this one I did get in the boat and all the marking were the same.
We’ve all caught the fish that is missing most of one or more of its cheeks because. It has been hooked so many times.
Catt reply :
So @Alan Reed ya figure out how to take it to the next level yet!
Alan Reed reply :
On 9/2/2018 at 9:03 AM, Catt said:So @Alan Reed ya figure out how to take it to the next level yet!
I have a lot of good take aways from a great discussion. Some of which I knew but good to get some confirmation. Certainly other things I hadn’t thought about. Thanks to everyone for all the thoughts and conversation.
Catt reply :
Excellent discussion!
And as always @Team9nine makes me think long & hard ????
Mobasser reply :
Yes Great thread! And I agree, Team9nine always has some good stuff to add.
greentrout reply :
BassResource best source for info on the net...archived articles and posts from members..learn a lot..
tks for a great thread...
Tennessee Boy reply :
Great thread! Made me do a lot of thinking. Thanks!
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