Weird drag thing ??? 2025

Fish Chris reply :

This is going to be REALLY hard to explain, but I'll do my best, and I hope a few of you can follow me on this....

Oh, and it's a Shimano thing... (this time, although I've had the issue with other spinning reels back in the day, also)

Okay, so with my new Shimano Sahara. Yes, the drag feels pretty much silky smooth. Not to mention, I've now caught Striper's up to the 18.4 lb'er on the little 1000 series reel, so obviously, it's not completely messed up.

But here's the thing >

On the one hand, you don't want a drag which is really sticky, and will allow tension to build, and build, and build, then break loose, and slip really easily until it sticks again. That would be bad, right ? (10 X's worse yet if a guy uses stretchy arse mono, which will build up lots of energy, then release it all at once when the drag finally breaks free}.

But I'm a braid guy, so that's not usually a problem.

Now, the above is a lot more common problem, with a worn out, or cheap quality drag system.

But here's what my Shimano is doing...

Say I have my drag set at 2.5 lbs of tension. It seems to start slipping at about 1.5 lbs. If the fish pulls harder / faster, it builds up to 2.5 lbs. If it makes a really hard, fast surge, it builds up more yet, to like 3 or 3.5 lbs.

This is not what a drag should do. In other words, I wouldn't care (or should I say, it might actually help) if it did have just a little bit more stickiness.... Like say, it builds to 2.8 lbs, without slipping at all. When it finally breaks free, it lightens to say 2.3 lbs. If the fish pulls really hard and fast, it builds back up to say, 2.5, or 2.7 lbs tops.

However, it should not slip at all, at 1.5 lbs, and no matter how fast or hard the fish pulls, it should not build up to 3.5 lbs. > Like my Shimano Sahara does :-/

If all of this loses you, just try to imagine a drag which feels greasy.... very smooth, but slow to react to changing tensions....

Anybody follow me ? What causes this ? Are their any fixes ?

Hmmmmm,

Fish

J Francho reply :

That's why I exchange the OE oiled felt washers for Smooth Drags Carbontex washers. The answer is heat. Think of disc brakes, only in reverse. Brakes slow you down by converting momentum to heat. as the rotor cools, your momentum is decreased. As your drag slips, it builds up heat, and gets stickier. For whatever reason, and I'm sure someone can give a more technical reason (or explain why I'm wrong, LOL) the carbon fiber washers are more consistent.

Fish Chris reply :

Thank you JF.

But now, where could I find these drag washers foir a Sahara 1000 ? (I guess they would be for any non-sealed 1000 series spinning reel, huh ?)

I'd definately be interested in trying some of those..... preferably on some little 10 to 20 lb Stripers..... Before I tie into that 150 lb Sturgy LOL

Peace,

Fish

whittler reply :

Backreel, drag is always the same, hot, cold,wet or dry and never needs adjusting.

J Francho reply :

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Thank you JF.
But now, where could I find these drag washers foir a Sahara 1000 ? (I guess they would be for any non-sealed 1000 series spinning reel, huh ?)

I'd definately be interested in trying some of those..... preferably on some little 10 to 20 lb Stripers..... Before I tie into that 150 lb Sturgy LOL

Peace,

Fish

PM me, you get me the spool, I'll get them in there.

J Francho reply :

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Backreel, drag is always the same, hot, cold,wet or dry and never needs adjusting.

Back reeling is for dinosaurs.

Fish Chris reply :

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Back reeling is for dinosaurs.

;D ;D ;D ;D

I couldn't agree more, nor could I have said it better myself !

I've went round and round with guys about backreeling, and no matter what any hard-core back reeler will ever tell me, I do not believe that a back reeler could do as good a job (or even a good enough job, to keep the fish hooked up) when fishing for BIG fish, on very light gear.

You ever seen how fast a 50" or 60" Sturgeon can run, when freshly hooked up ? You think you could spin that reel handle backwards fast enough to keep up ? So then, you just pull your hand off the handle, and let her free reel, right ? ... Then the Sturgy does a 180, and now your back lashing with a spinning reel ! No bueno. I'm not the one.

Oh but anyway, JF, where to get those CarbonTex washers ?

Fish

Jaheff reply :

Here is some info from a reel mechanic who is pushing for greased carbon fiber from all the manufacturers.He lives close to you too...

wet versus dry. seems like i've been fighting this battle for the last 10 years. what's the big deal? i still get asked once in a while, so i'd like to go through some points that i think are important and then i think you'll have a better idea of where i'm coming from.

just so we're all on the same page, i'd like to define a few terms i use. the first is "start up." when you first pull on the line, some drags tend to stick a little, so you have to pull a little harder. once the line starts moving, it may take, say, 5 pounds of drag to keep the line moving. that initial pull may take 6 pounds to get it started. that extra pound (or 20%) is what i refer to as "start up." with a horribly sticky drag, the start up might be as high as 100%. my personal preference is zero.

the next is your drag setting. simple enough. it's the number of pounds needed to keep the line peeling off the spool once it starts moving. that number will increase as the spool height decreases. it actually doubles when the spool height decreases by half. for spinning, star and lever drag reels, i will quote a drag setting but always add "at the top of the spool, " even if i do not.

then there is "accelleration" or "high speed runout." this is the nasty tendency for a greased drag to become more slippery. a gentleman named cal sheets has done work some on this. imagine a situation with a large shimano tiagra 80, a 50# drag setting, and a 500# tuna. such a fish might take a 100 yard run in 10 seconds. cal sheets had found that the functional drag would decrease as much as 40% during these hard runs. it was not necessarily a function of temperature, it was interestingly more a function of speed.

the shimano star drag grease is a pure teflon product that has a melting temperature of 300 degrees farenheit. when applied in excess, this problem with accelleration was noted. when the excess was removed, it became less of a problem, but i do not know how much less. cal sheets also now sells a pure teflon grease. it has a melting temperature of 500 degrees farenheit. it is applied liberally to the drag washer of a large lever drag reel, then the excess is vigorously wiped off. cal sheets says that this has eliminated the problem of accelleration. i have no reason do doubt his work, but i have not seen the data.

and lastly, my definition of a properly functioning drag system. try this with your own rod and reel. spool the reel with a desired line weight. let's say 20 pound monofilament, just to pick a number. place the reel on the rod. run the line through the guides. tie with line off to a 5 pound weight, which is 25% of your line weight. clamp down on the drag star. reel down to the weight. lift the rod up until the grip is at a 45 degree angle. now adjust the drag until the weight drops one foot every 5 seconds. if your reel can perform to this level, then you have near zero start up. this is my definition of a properly functioning drag system.

regarding greased carbon fiber drag upgrades in top drag spinning reels, bait casters and small to medium conventional star drag reels, i simply find a carbon fiber drag washer that gives me a "best fit." i can cut them down to size pretty easily if needed. i slap a thick coat of grease on the drag washers, install them and let the grease squeeze out the sides. when i first started doing this, my friends were amazed at the smoothness and level of performance and reliability. many tackle pros, shop owners, repair personel and industry were adament that i was totally wrong. sometimes, it got personal. so what i did was to slap in more grease, and then take pictures. i just used the excess grease in non-lever drag reels just to annoy the non-believers. and one fisherman, after another, after another, would say "yes, i own this reel," and "yes, it is as smooth as he says." oh, and "yes, these drags last forever!" and for the most part, the harassment stopped. it is true that you get no respect on the internet without pictures.

what about lever drag reels? i always wipe off the excess, but that is because it allows me to get a higher strike drag setting before losing freespool. i am also concerned about accelleration, but i believe it will only be an issue with one fisherman out of 10,000. the start up remains zero and that's my main concern. the grease also prevents water damage to the drag washer and aluminum underneath. and when i say that i've almost won, here's what i mean. shimano started out with greased carbon fiber. they get credit for that original innovation. you will now see greased carbon fiber drag washer in all of the flagship two speed lever drag reels, including penn, daiwa, okuma, accurate and tiburon. only avet and alutecnos have dry systems. someday, that too may change. and then i will call my victory complete.

why no grease star drag reels from the major manufacturers? only progear has a greased carbon fiber drag system. i can only guess, but perhaps other manufacturers consider this system to be too expensive. and why make a reel with a drag system that will last forever, when they would rather have you buy another reel. as for spinners? they WANT you to buy a new one each year. otherwise, why would they introduce a new model every year? basically, start up is the main issue here. accelleration will never be. but this is a battle i know i will never win. it is simple frustration on my part, but i wonder somtimes if companies deliberatly make a reel that they know will fail, just so that they can sell another one.

J Francho reply :

Quote

Quote
Back reeling is for dinosaurs.

;D ;D ;D ;D

I couldn't agree more, nor could I have said it better myself !

I've went round and round with guys about backreeling, and no matter what any hard-core back reeler will ever tell me, I do not believe that a back reeler could do as good a job (or even a good enough job, to keep the fish hooked up) when fishing for BIG fish, on very light gear.

You ever seen how fast a 50" or 60" Sturgeon can run, when freshly hooked up ? You think you could spin that reel handle backwards fast enough to keep up ? So then, you just pull your hand off the handle, and let her free reel, right ? ... Then the Sturgy does a 180, and now your back lashing with a spinning reel ! No bueno. I'm not the one.

Oh but anyway, JF, where to get those CarbonTex washers ?

Fish

Smooth Drags. http://www.smoothdrag.com/ Call, Dawn will hook you up. Seriously, if you need help just PM me, I can walk you through it over the phone.

Fish Chris reply :

So, I posted a nice thorough response... tried to post it, and got the message the subject was "locked" ? Moved is fine... but locked ? Apparently not. Only problem is, it dumped my darn response

Anyway, I'm still not even sure that I prefer a "greased" drag system. That might be what I'm not liking the feel of.

BTW, I talked with a tech at Shimano. He told me that my drag might have been slightly over greased, and that I could remove the washers, and wipe some of the grease off, and that this should fix the problem. I guess that would be free to try.

I'm pretty sure I will go on and get some of those carbontex washers though, and I won't grease them "unless" they specifically recommend it, and if they come with the recommended grease.

Also, I'm pretty sure my next reel will be a Pflueger Supreme, so I can see how the drags on these feel right out of the box as well.

Thanks again guys,

Peace,

Fish

J Francho reply :

Over greased? Lame excuse. if its over greased, it simply oozes out and sits ontop of the top metal washer, just under the drag adjustment knob. Harmless, and won't do what you describe. I'd go with a dry Carbontex system.

Fish Chris reply :

Thank you JF, I think so too !

Only one thing, I just went to the smooth drag website, and they do not list washers for my Sahara 1000, nor for ANY other 1000 series Shimano ? Does this mean I'll have to get some larger ones, and cut them down ? Is this easy enough to do ?

Fish

J Francho reply :

Call Dawn, she might have what you need. I can't remember if the 1000 are smaller than the usual Shimano Stradic 2500, or if there are three or one felt washer. Cutting them down is simple, just use the metal washer as a template.

bilgerat reply :

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That's why I exchange the OE oiled felt washers for Smooth Drags Carbontex washers. The answer is heat. Think of disc brakes, only in reverse. Brakes slow you down by converting momentum to heat. as the rotor cools, your momentum is decreased. As your drag slips, it builds up heat, and gets stickier. For whatever reason, and I'm sure someone can give a more technical reason (or explain why I'm wrong, LOL) the carbon fiber washers are more consistent.

You're fine. The phenomena is known as brake fade.

http://www.torquecars.com/articles/brake-fade.php

Jaheff reply :

Quote

Quote
That's why I exchange the OE oiled felt washers for Smooth Drags Carbontex washers. The answer is heat. Think of disc brakes, only in reverse. Brakes slow you down by converting momentum to heat. as the rotor cools, your momentum is decreased. As your drag slips, it builds up heat, and gets stickier. For whatever reason, and I'm sure someone can give a more technical reason (or explain why I'm wrong, LOL) the carbon fiber washers are more consistent.

You're fine. The phenomena is known as brake fade.

http://www.torquecars.com/articles/brake-fade.php

This topic has been argued about for over 20+ yrs.

Comparing drags to car brakes is not apples to apples. One is high tech,high speed application used to make a vehicle make complete stops, one is a low speed, low tech application, meant to give resistance to wear something out. Cal Sheets was using greased drags in the 80's,they all thought he was crazy. The argument will still go on....

J Francho reply :

Whatever, the dry system will solve Chris's problem, based on my time on the water.

bilgerat reply : http://www2.fiu.edu/~zhangj/cartoon_quantum3.gif

whittler reply :

Back reeling is for dinosaurs.

While this statment may be true, might I remind you I'm not having any drag problems.

Now to adress the "if I were" If I were fishing for sturgeon, wahoo or some fish that make long high speed runs then a spinning reel would not be my weapon of choice. Not to mention the sturgeon bite is just a little slow here in Indiana. 42" musky on 6lb. line, 16 lb. channel cat 4lb. line and a 23Lb carp on 4lb. line were all caught by backreeling. All those fish were caught while fishing for smallies and all on a jig. I guess it won't work. No adjustment needed.

J Francho reply :

Congrats!

Chris only uses spinners, and obviously isn't going to backreel. Nothing will ever convince me back reeling is better. Its a holdover from before good drags were available for spinners.

dodgeguy reply :

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Congrats!
Chris only uses spinners, and obviously isn't going to backreel. Nothing will ever convince me back reeling is better. Its a holdover from before good drags were available for spinners.

totally agree.chris i also agree on the supreme xt which has the carbon drag.

whittler reply :

I agree there are situations where backreeling might not be the best choice. What I cannot understand the logic that if you are having a drag problem and you can eliminate it entirely, why not. Do any of you actually use a pull test on drags to see how much pull it requires to start it moving and how much it takes to keep it moving? Do you check this when the reel is warm, cold, wet and dry? This to me is like saying " I know I have a charging system problem but I carry jumper cables".

J Francho reply :

Actually, I do bench test drags.

And I offered the solution. :D

J Francho reply :

Quote

Quote
Congrats!
Chris only uses spinners, and obviously isn't going to backreel. Nothing will ever convince me back reeling is better. Its a holdover from before good drags were available for spinners.

totally agree.chris i also agree on the supreme xt which has the carbon drag.

Flooger spinners impress me. Can't say the same for the BC's. The only things you gotta look at are IPT. Some models are a little slow.

fourbizz reply :

Quote
So, I posted a nice thorough response... tried to post it, and got the message the subject was "locked" ? Moved is fine... but locked ? Apparently not. Only problem is, it dumped my darn response
Anyway, I'm still not even sure that I prefer a "greased" drag system. That might be what I'm not liking the feel of.

BTW, I talked with a tech at Shimano. He told me that my drag might have been slightly over greased, and that I could remove the washers, and wipe some of the grease off, and that this should fix the problem. I guess that would be free to try.

I'm pretty sure I will go on and get some of those carbontex washers though, and I won't grease them "unless" they specifically recommend it, and if they come with the recommended grease.

Also, I'm pretty sure my next reel will be a Pflueger Supreme, so I can see how the drags on these feel right out of the box as well.

Thanks again guys,

Peace,

Fish

Thats what the "BACK" button is for Fish ;D

SirSnookalot reply :

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Back reeling is for dinosaurs.
While this statment may be true, might I remind you I'm not having any drag problems.

Now to adress the "if I were" If I were fishing for sturgeon, wahoo or some fish that make long high speed runs then a spinning reel would not be my weapon of choice. Not to mention the sturgeon bite is just a little slow here in Indiana. 42" musky on 6lb. line, 16 lb. channel cat 4lb. line and a 23Lb carp on 4lb. line were all caught by backreeling. All those fish were caught while fishing for smallies and all on a jig. I guess it won't work. No adjustment needed.

I'm no sturgeon expert, but I have caught my share of whaoo and other very fast larger fish that make long runs. Backreeling for those species probably gonna get you a few busted knuckles. That said may people use spinning offshore, a Stella SW 18000 holds about 800 yds of 50# braid with a rated drag over 50#, if price prohibitive the Shimano sargossa( low $200's) 18000 holds over 600 yds of line and about 50# of drag, wahoo, sailfish should pose no problem. Landing one of those fish with a smaller line capacity reel, whether spinning or conventional with a lesser drag, becomes teamwork between the angler and the captain, those fish are chased down.

Fish Chris reply :

Hey JF, I just wanted to thank you for recommending the Carbontex drag washers. I did call and talk to Dawn. She sent me a carbontex drag washer, which I just put in my Sahara 1000. And let me put it this way, simply by hand testing it, I can already tell the problem is fixed.

Now I just need to go stick something big on it, to give it the real test ......or, is that the reel test

I would have just PM'd you JF, but these drag washers might be something that would help a lot of others as well.

Peace,

Fish

PS, I'm going to try it dry, to start out with, as Carbontex says they can be used wet, or dry. Depending on how it handles big fish / long fights, I might try a "very little bit" of some of the drag grease that Carbontex recommends on their site, later on.

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Weird drag thing ??? 2025

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