Braided Line Questions 2024

bassfisherman3 reply :

I was wondering what you guys thought on braided line. Is it good for worm fishing?(carolina rigs, texas rigs, etc.) Also, should i tie on a leader to take down on visibility with a carolina rig, should i tie the main braid to the swivel and use the normal flouro or mono leader or should i top shot with about 20 feet of flouro above the whole rig? all help is appreciated greatly

derekxec reply :

you shouldnt use a swivel if you want a leader which is not absolutely needed use a line to line knot....with a swivel ive had fish hit the swivel instead of the bait many times but the swivel doesnt have a hook: haha

LApanic reply :

I caught half a dozen 3-5's today actually, Spinning Tackle, 40# Braid, straight to the J Bend hook. Also a 3/16ths tungesten bobber stopped. SUPER Sensitive with braid and tungesten. After catching that many in a short period, there was very little line fray and the Palomar knot held tight.

As far as C-rigged, I tend to have braid on my longer rods like my rod I use for the c-rig, so 40-50# braid, brass or tungsten > glass bead (not really necessary) > Carolina Keeper then tie to the hook. The CArolina keepers are great unless your tossing a heavy sinker long distances and have ONLY ONE KNOT! For most of what I use the c-rig for I use a heavier weight, bead and swivel. Usually 18-24" of12-15# Fluorocarbon leader.

That might not have answered your question, but this setup works for me because I can feel the bites better with braid and tungesten!

dodgeguy reply :

start with a quality 8 strand braid like powerepro super slick.leaders are not needed.bass are not line shy.i've caught trout on straight braid and they are way more skittish than a bass.other good braids are fireline braid,diawa,and sufix 832.

RoachDad reply :

Finally, some people who agree with me. I cannot figure out why people use leaders. Its another knot. The leader is typically smaller than the main line so your really only fishing at the knot strength of the least line. and if a fish can't tell the difference in a plastic worm or a Jig and a real worm or crawfish, seeing a line in the water is not going to bother them in the least.

Put on a mask and swim in your lake. There is all kinds of moss, grass, whatever, floating in the water.

backcast88 reply :

Not a fan of braid. Zero abrasion resistance and zero sensitivity on slack line. Not to mention the wind knots that can form.

If I was to use braid I would use a leader for clear water and no leader for more stained water.

PABASS reply :

Fish can see line and depending on where you fish they will be more aware of it and avoid it, you see the pros do it for reason. In my local area I have seen fish be spooked from white fireline 10# test. In ultra clear water and or heavy pressured water in my opinion a transparent leader will up your catch rate. On my gear I use 8-10# braid with a 6-8# leader typically FC using a modified albright, the leader materiel roughly the length of the rod, but can go much shorter.

Nitrofreak reply :

It's all I use, braid from reel to bait, I have not noticed any difference in using leaders vs. straight braid, all I use is spiderwire but I hope to give some other brands a try at this too.

Both of these fish came on a SP100 Lucky Craft JB using nothing but braid, the only problem was that the braid freezes and builds ice on the eyelets, so I will be going back to some different line in the future for my cold water fishing lol !

BrettD reply :

Im another one that uses straight braid with no leader.

roadwarrior reply :

If you are not fishing Tuf-Line, you need to give it a try, especially for only $4.99 shipped!

PABASS reply :

If you are not fishing Tuf-Line, you need to give it a try, especially for only $4.99 shipped!

Didn't that deal expire? If not do you have a link, I would like to get more if I can.

jhoffman reply :

If you are not fishing Tuf-Line, you need to give it a try, especially for only $4.99 shipped!

Reminds me of this

derekxec reply :

Fish can see line and depending on where you fish they will be more aware of it and avoid it, you see the pros do it for reason. In my local area I have seen fish be spooked from white fireline 10# test. In ultra clear water and or heavy pressured water in my opinion a transparent leader will up your catch rate. On my gear I use 8-10# braid with a 6-8# leader typically FC using a modified albright, the leader materiel roughly the length of the rod, but can go much shorter.

yeah but just because you see pros doing it doesnt mean the fish cant see it....read the how to get a sponsor articles and they say that its not how good you can fish its how well you can sell the sponsors product

roadwarrior reply :

Didn't that deal expire? If not do you have a link, I would like to get more if I can.

It looks like the deal has expired.

roadwarrior reply :

yeah but just because you see pros doing it doesnt mean the fish cant see it....read the how to get a sponsor articles and they say that its not how good you can fish its how well you can sell the sponsors product

I don't think there is a whole lot of money paid for guys using a leader. Seems like a lot of guys here consider using

a leader is an advantage. I'm still on the fence, but right now I'm using leaders on most rods rigged with Tuf-Line or

Seaguar Kanzen braided line.

Hogsticker reply :

Finally, some people who agree with me. I cannot figure out why people use leaders. Its another knot. The leader is typically smaller than the main line so your really only fishing at the knot strength of the least line. and if a fish can't tell the difference in a plastic worm or a Jig and a real worm or crawfish, seeing a line in the water is not going to bother them in the least.

Put on a mask and swim in your lake. There is all kinds of moss, grass, whatever, floating in the water.

Perhaps, but your not a fish. I fish extremely clear lakes, and I can tell you that using a leader with slow moving presentations where the fish can get a good look at it rather than a quick reflex reaction type of strike is a must. If you want to be productive anyways. If there is even a slight chance it will help, why wouldn't you want to do it? It's no different than presenting your offering in the most realistic fashion possible. Tie the connection knots the night before you go. If your tying good knots correctly the break off should occur at the bait. The leader should last you all day.

RoachDad reply :

In my humble opinion, there is no way to prove this. I am sure that people think it matters but I don't know how you could prove it. Maybe in Hook 'n Look

We do know that to have a leader:

- you have to have a knot. That is one more opportunity for a failure

- Knots are weaker than the line

- the leader is almost always smaller than the main line.

Thus: Your true line strength is the strength at the knot of the least line, which you now have two of.

So, why not just spool up whatever your leader is?

Fish hit Buzz baits. That does not resemble anything in a fish's diet. a Jig doesn't really look like a crawfish. Come on. Worms do look like worms, I will grant you that. But in general, we give fish too much credit for intelligence and stuff like that.

And , this is all just my dummy opinion, so by all means, use the leader. ALot of people do. Even Glenn May!

On 4/30/2013 at 11:20 AM, Hogsticker said:

I fish extremely clear lakes, and I can tell you that using a leader with slow moving presentations where the fish can get a good look at it rather than a quick reflex reaction type of strike is a must.

Sherlock 60 reply :

I use braid about 60% of the time and only use a leader when I am targeting muskies.

Have tried braid both with and without a leader for bass and cannot tell any difference in the number or quality of stirkes.

dodgeguy reply :

if fish hit an umbrella ig there is no way you will convince me they even remotely care about line.i've outfished guys with flouro a bunch of times and had them outfish me.what it comes down to is who put the bait in front of a willing fish.i use braid for everything.

BigAL reply :

Braided line is almost a must fishing here in florida a lot of grass n trees in water n the first thing a fish does once he eats the bait is wrap him self up in that stuff better have some strong line to muscle him out!65#braid on my worm n frog rod.

derekxec reply :

hey another florida guy im in south florida palm beach

i use a couple size power pro from 30-65 on my light fresh/saltwater rods and 80 and 100 on my larger salt rods

for freshwater i really never break off and i rip them out of everything 30lb when there is a lot of open water and 65lb when im around lots of structure and yeah definately braid is a must in florida haha

BronzeChaser reply :

I am a big fan fan of braid, but I almost always use a leader. Sometimes the bass don't care if you use straight braid, but there are certainly times when they do. I fish a decent amount of clear water with very little weed growth. Especially when using slow, finesse style presentation the bass can get up close and personal with your bait. Using braid as a main for me is mainly because it handles much easier than mono or fluoro, the actual breaking strength doesn't come into play unless frogging or very heavy cover flipping. I use an alberto knot to join lines and in two years it hasn't failed on me once. Also, I believe a lot of the time a bass isn't dead set on what it's eating is the forage we are trying to imitate. They don't have hands, so if something is moving around and makes them curious, the only way for them to see what it is is to eat it, or "feel it" with their mouth.

I.rar reply :

I use braid with a leader for everything. The leader helps the braid not get banged up going over steep rocky dropoffs and if I get snagged, 10# copolymer is easier to break than 20, 30 or stronger braided lines.

hatrix reply :

Finally, some people who agree with me. I cannot figure out why people use leaders. Its another knot. The leader is typically smaller than the main line so your really only fishing at the knot strength of the least line. and if a fish can't tell the difference in a plastic worm or a Jig and a real worm or crawfish, seeing a line in the water is not going to bother them in the least.

Put on a mask and swim in your lake. There is all kinds of moss, grass, whatever, floating in the water.

You ever hang braid in 20 FOW? Guess what you just lost 20' of line unless you can bend the hooks out pulling on it. Also a leader keeps you spool full even after retying a bunch of times. Braid last well... as long as you need it to. I have a spinning rod with 30# on it that is 3 years old its top notch and the reel is still full cause I use leaders. Why not give your self every advantage you can. If adding a leader gives you more bites why not do it? If you can tie a good knot and you use good line then what does it matter. I have complete confidence in my knot skills and they never fail me.

bassfisherman3 reply :

thanks for the replies, would you guys use 30 or 50 pound braid for worm fishin?

bassfisherman3 reply :

and also for flipping soft plastics?

RoachDad reply :

On 5/1/2013 at 9:30 AM, bassfisherman3 said:
thanks for the replies, would you guys use 30 or 50 pound braid for worm fishin?

I seriously doubt you need more than 30 lb. That is probably more than you need. I did buy some 50 for an A-rig because that thing cost alot of money and it has 5 open hooks so it will get hung up.

dodgeguy reply :

On 5/1/2013 at 9:30 AM, bassfisherman3 said:
thanks for the replies, would you guys use 30 or 50 pound braid for worm fishin?

10 or 20 on spinning and at least 50 on baitcast.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/1/2013 at 6:35 AM, BronzeChaser said:
I am a big fan fan of braid, but I almost always use a leader. Sometimes the bass don't care if you use straight braid, but there are certainly times when they do.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but I just don't see how you could prove this. I really think it is alot more of a feeling and conventional wisdom.

If you are going to use a leader, then your fishing with whatever the leader is. Not braid. If you have 50 lb braid and 12 lb mono, then your fishing line is 12 lb mono, period. The old line is "a chain is only as strong as your weakest link". The knot between the leader and main line is your weakest link.

If I thought a mono leader made the difference, I woudl just spool up that size line. But that is just me.

To me leaders had 2 purposes. In deep sea fishing the leader is stronger so the fish cannot bite through it, and in fly fishing because the main line actually casts the lure more than the rod does. So your main line is serving a greater purpose.

Like I said, its a personal preference and if it gives you confidence, that is huge.

Nitrofreak reply :

On 5/1/2013 at 2:20 AM, Hogsticker said:
Perhaps, but your not a fish. I fish extremely clear lakes, and I can tell you that using a leader with slow moving presentations where the fish can get a good look at it rather than a quick reflex reaction type of strike is a must. If you want to be productive anyways. If there is even a slight chance it will help, why wouldn't you want to do it? It's no different than presenting your offering in the most realistic fashion possible. Tie the connection knots the night before you go. If your tying good knots correctly the break off should occur at the bait. The leader should last you all day.

The lake I was fishing with my pics added, was gin clear to about 20 feet, both me and my fishing partner saw these fish, we both used the same identical bait, SP100 L/C pointers, he was first to cast to the area, he strictly uses clear lines, and he came up empty handed, my line was old enough that it has become a light green color instead of the deep grass green it is when its new, I could physically see my line all the way to the bait, the only difference between my friend and me was the line and the technique used, I ended up with the fish, he did not.

I am not by any means saying that this is going to be true anywhere and everywhere, but I do fish some gin clear strip mines and old gravel pits with nothing but braid, the fish will focus on the bait not the line, I have never seen a fish come to the front of the bait to see what kind of line you are using or to see if there is even a line attached, to me it will always be in the presentation, at least for my areas of water, I have had them all different ways, with leaders and without, where I am located and the waters I fish, I have not noticed any significant positive to either.

I have not tried all lines of braid but as mentioned, Spiderwire is all I have tried this with, 30lb with 8lb diameter, I have been just as successful with either.

annexation reply :

I tie braid direct to lure and it doesn't seem to cost me bites. I love braid's lack of stretch and generally dislike leaders. If I'm having a tough day, I've been known to tie on a fluorocarbon leader, but honestly I can't tell if it helps or not in the end.

PABASS reply :

To the point of why would fish eat a buzzbait or a jig= reaction, aggression(territorial), hunger is the nature of our quarry, they cant reach out and touch something as we can so they use there mouth and get hooked. When your in clear water how many times have you just pulled up to/walk to an area just to see a fish swim away, its because they see you, if you give them enough time they can see your line as well. Line is not natural to them and is not a food source. I am talking clear water, water that when you wade in it you can see your feet just as clear is if it was on land. If you are not trying it and you practice tying leader materials and lets just say it brings that one extra fish you might not normally get, why not try it? This is for clear water, slow presentation lures. I prefer braid to FC that's why I use FC as a leader materiel and remove my leader it when the water is dirty.

CDMeyer reply :

I think the use of braid when Texas- rigging is more than appropriate! If I am Texas-rigging in a heavy cover area I use Spider Wire 20lb Stealth-Camo. This blends right in with my cover and provides me with all the strength I need when rearing up on a bass. As for Carolina-rigging I do not know that is not my specialty, but Texas-rigging is so if I were you I would rig a rod with braid for Texas-rigging. You will be reaping the rewards! Trust me.

thehooligan reply :

I started using braid a few years ago and was tying straight to the hook. When i heard about tying flouro leaders two years ago i started doing it and ive had great results.

I think im going to start trying full braid again, and only tie leaders for dropshot.

dodgeguy reply :

On 5/1/2013 at 9:31 PM, Nitrofreak said:

The lake I was fishing with my pics added, was gin clear to about 20 feet, both me and my fishing partner saw these fish, we both used the same identical bait, SP100 L/C pointers, he was first to cast to the area, he strictly uses clear lines, and he came up empty handed, my line was old enough that it has become a light green color instead of the deep grass green it is when its new, I could physically see my line all the way to the bait, the only difference between my friend and me was the line and the technique used, I ended up with the fish, he did not.

I am not by any means saying that this is going to be true anywhere and everywhere, but I do fish some gin clear strip mines and old gravel pits with nothing but braid, the fish will focus on the bait not the line, I have never seen a fish come to the front of the bait to see what kind of line you are using or to see if there is even a line attached, to me it will always be in the presentation, at least for my areas of water, I have had them all different ways, with leaders and without, where I am located and the waters I fish, I have not noticed any significant positive to either.

I have not tried all lines of braid but as mentioned, Spiderwire is all I have tried this with, 30lb with 8lb diameter, I have been just as successful with either.

i agree with this 100% !!!

mtaag3 reply :

I'll ask the dumb question, why can't they make braid clear or close to clear? In looking I've seen yellow, orange, red, two shades of green, brown but not clear.

Wouldn't that solve all the issues?

Hogsticker reply :

You were fishing a reaction bait over 20 ft. Of water. Little different than a finesse jig in 6 ft. Of water. If people don't think fish are line shy, especially trout in heavily pressured waters.....hey, more power to em

Hogsticker reply :

On 5/2/2013 at 10:49 PM, eddieg said:
Fish lack the lobe in their brain for logical thinking. They cannot look at something and think about it they can only react. I forget where I read this, but a study was done on bass to see how long they could remember and the results was 15 minutes of memory. During the study, a fish was caught, tagged and put back in the tank and then 15 minutes later, on the same line, bait, technique and all the same fish was caught again. If a fish had the ability to reason, that fish would have remembered that bait was danger and not to go for it a second time. I fully believe that fish cannot determine if a bait is attached to a line. How ever I do believe that a line moving may spook the fish if were looking at the bait just sitting there and then out of the corner of the fish's eye something moved while the fishermen jiggle the bait. Boils down to use what you feel comfortable with.

I beg to differ. A fish remembers getting stung. Fish are naturally spooky and very aware of their environment, including prey that does not look, feel, or smell natural. They don't grow big by being stupid. If this were the case every day on the water would be a knock out punch, granted you found fish. Your referring to a bass in a tank -

RoachDad reply :

Hey guys, I am having fun with this subject!

the only way to prove the statements that a leader works is to have a control group of fish in a confined space and offer them matching baits with a leader or braid and see which one is taken most often over a period of time. I know all of us have been fishing a lure and for some reason it suddenly begins working. There is no way to prove this just because you are sure the leader helps you catch fish.

I did some knot research and it was enlightening (link below). Knots don't cause as much trouble as i thought.

when you tie a leader knot, your line is the strength of the weakest line at that knot.

1) an Albright knot is 94%. I thought it would be lower than that. So if you tie 12 lb mono leader on 20 lb braid, you are effectively fishing with 11 lb mono. Not bad!

2) However, all lines are actually stronger than their label. 12 lb mono is actually about 15 lb

3) However #2, any wrapping knot is totally dependent on how perfectly you tie it. If you overlap the lines you have a less than perfect knot

For me, i am lazy.

1) I don't like tying "line to line" knots. They are hard for me to tie

2) I don't like tying more knots than I have to tie

3) I don't believe a fish that thinks a jig is a crawfish cares about the line

4) I don't like how line knots go through rod eyes (unless you have a very short leader)

5) if my effective line strength and line size is 12 lb mono, I'd rather just spool up 12 lb mono.

The only reason I would use a leader is to have effetively 2 lines with out a second rod. If I wanted braid for an application, that woudl be spooled. If I wanted to use mono for something else, rather than have another rod with mono, just tie on a leader.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/bass/where-fish/2009/02/strongest-fishing-knots?photo=1#node-1001319720

RoachDad reply :

On 5/2/2013 at 11:28 PM, Hogsticker said:
I beg to differ. A fish remembers getting stung. Fish are naturally spooky and very aware of their environment, including prey that does not look, feel, or smell natural. They don't grow big by being stupid. If this were the case every day on the water would be a knock out punch, granted you found fish. Your referring to a bass in a tank -

I know you feel this in your gut, but its just not true. Fish are dumb as bricks. THey have very small brains. They do not figure things out. Watch the video by the Pond Boss. He discusses this at length. A bass has a 15 minute memory at best. He discusses what makes a bass big and it has nothing to do with intelligence.

A big bass is blessed with female organs, correct genes, a steady supply of food, the correct amount of good water, and some natural tendencies like being a loner and thus not hanging out in schools. And #1 being very lucky that they are not killed or eaten by other fish.

Darren. reply :

A different take, one which I've explained in another post...

Braid is phenomenal for mainline on spinning gear. For me it is PowerPro in 10 lb test.

I always tie a leader, of differing pound tests depending on whether I'm fishing cover, open water, etc.

The different take is this: spooling only braid is expensive, it will last a long time if you aren't tying and retying over and over, shortening the length of your braided mainline. On the other hand, tying a leader of say, 6', with an Albright knot means you are retying hooks, etc., only on that 6' length until it is short enough to change out. That's a lot of retying that leaves your braided mainline in tact.

While it may seem moot to some, it has proven quite cost-effective for me. Whether or not bass mind the line or not is really irrelevant to me. I have tried straight braid vs. leader. Caught fish on both.

And I have 100% faith in my line-to-leader Albright knots.

So this is one reason I fish braid + leader, it is my 2 cents.

RoachDad reply :

I guess my main question for leader people, is why do you have braid?

I use braid because it is stronger at a smaller size. It costs more than mono. Since your effective line strength is the mono, why do you have braid?

RoachDad reply :

On 5/2/2013 at 11:41 PM, DarrenM said:

While it may seem moot to some, it has proven quite cost-effective for me. Whether or not bass mind the line or not is really irrelevant to me. I have tried straight braid vs. leader. Caught fish on both.

See? Now this makes sense to me. My braided spool last so long that I don't care about the cost but if you are trying to save money and you prefer the braid on the spool, that makes sense.

I couldn't begin to calculate the cost difference but in my mind it would be hard to imagine that retying cost you very much. But I don't fish as much as alot of you guys.

PABASS reply :

My reason is I don't use FC as a main line haven't found one I have liked but I also haven't tried many brands, but I like braid and I practice knot tying allot and I trust my knots not to break, I have many times in the past lost my lure but my line to line knot held strong. You go out in clear water, heavy pressured river/lakes and catch bass using slow tactics using braid more power to you, but it is my experience you can do better with a leader. How many people drop shot with braid, why not do you think?

We need to understand conditioning because bass just like most animals can be conditioned, you go to any pond and fish it hard in a season those fish will be much harder to catch, I have done on many ponds. BR has an article about a lunker fish that was tagged, the guy knew it was there but wouldn't hit his lure, he though it was something he was doing, it was but he didn't realize it was his trolling motor spooking the fish, the bass become conditioned to that feeling =bad=swim away. Why do bass eat food pellets, they are conditioned too.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 2:57 AM, PABASS said:
We need to understand conditioning because bass just like most animals can be conditioned, you go to any pond and fish it hard in a season those fish will be much harder to catch, I have done on many ponds. BR has an article about a lunker fish that was tagged, the guy knew it was there but wouldn't hit his lure, he though it was something he was doing, it was but he didn't realize it was his trolling motor spooking the fish, the bass become conditioned to that feeling =bad=swim away. Why do bass eat food pellets, they are conditioned too.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but i just don't think there is any data to support this. The fact that it is hard to catch fish could be for any number of reasons. The fish are not smart enough to be conditioned to avoid a lure. How many times would a fish have to be caught to be conditioned? 10, 20, 100? That fish would starve.

Being spooked at a trolling motor is not a conditioned response. That is an instinct like flinching at a gun shot. If conditioning were in place, the opposite would happen. Every time a bass heard/felt/sensed a TM and did not get caught would condition it that nothing is wrong with Trolling Motors. Unless every time it heard a TM it got caught!

No offense but it is a common mistake to give fish credit for intelligence. They don't have any. They don't remember for more than 15 minutes. There are studies and proofs. They have tiny little brains. Not enough for reasoning powers. Fish are either hungry, irritated or reactionary when they hit a lure. They do not think about it. They have no idea they are in water. If they don't hit a lure it is because of something like they are not hungry or they don't feel like it or they don't see it or if doesn't appeal to them. Its not because last time the got hooked by that lure.

RoachDad reply :

BTW, I am not saying that fish don't get spooked. I think they spook quite easily and I think that often a TM will indeed stop a fish from hitting a lure. And on busy weekends with lots of boats and strange noises I beleive they do get turned off because they are scared or upset. But if they could be conditioned, they woudl realize that they hear that all summer long and they don't get caught.

Big fish are really just fraidy cats who spook at everthing. (including my braid )

PABASS reply :

Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets? They are conditioned to do so, why do they have automatic food dispensers? How can the fish know that food comes out of this dispenser when it forgets in 15 mins? Why would you hang around this large object that drops things at you unless you were conditioned to do so. I am not saying a bass knew what a TM was and that it means humans are coming to catch, it just proves that this bass was conditioned to avoid that factor.

derekxec reply :

how about this...

if we use the moss green powerpro braid without leader maybe since it matches the grasses underwater they think your bait is following a grass line

Darren. reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 12:14 AM, RoachDad said:

See? Now this makes sense to me. My braided spool last so long that I don't care about the cost but if you are trying to save money and you prefer the braid on the spool, that makes sense.

I couldn't begin to calculate the cost difference but in my mind it would be hard to imagine that retying cost you very much. But I don't fish as much as alot of you guys.

Well, I should clarify, my post was ONE reason I prefer a leader. While I have indeed caught fish on both straight braid and w/leader, I feel more confident with the leader in general. Thus, because I use a leader all the time, I have caught more than the times I've used straight braid. Logical, I use one method more than the other, thus numbers favor leader.

That said, when I have fished them side by side, the leader has tended to best the straight braid setup(s).

So a leader is 1) economical for me, and 2) more effective based on my experience, and confidence.

Granted, bass are caught on steel leaders, A-rigs, etc. But for my style and methods of fishing, leader all the way!!

Darren. reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 3:52 AM, PABASS said:
Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets? They are conditioned to do so, why do they have automatic food dispensers? How can the fish know that food comes out of this dispenser when it forgets in 15 mins? Why would you hang around this large object that drops things at you unless you were conditioned to do so. I am not saying a bass knew what a TM was and that it means humans are coming to catch, it just proves that this bass was conditioned to avoid that factor.

I tend to agree. Obviously we don't understand all the biological, ecological factors as to when and why bass bite. Water types, salinity, clarity, pressure, moon phase, cold front, warm front, and so on. So many factors play in.

Then there's the evolutionary survival instinct (humor me if you don't dig evolution). Adaptation, survival, conditioning play factors. What part of a bass's memory (15 minutes long?) is directly related to the conditions the bass lives in? If that bass was displaced and put in one of my lakes, would it behave the exact same way?

Just thinking out loud...

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 5:58 AM, DarrenM said:
Just thinking out loud...

Ain't that fun?

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 3:52 AM, PABASS said:
Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets?

Man PABass, I have to admit that you stumped the ol RoachDad with that one!

Let me cipher a little.

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that conditioning is possible but with a feeder we are talking about something happening every day without fail. to say that a bass gets conditioned to a lure seems far fetched. they would have to get caught everytime they saw a certain lure and even then it woudl have to be day after day.

I've seen studies where bass are caught repeatedly with the same lure after 15 minutes or so. the memory of a bass is 15 minutes according to biologists.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 5:50 AM, DarrenM said:
. But for my style and methods of fishing, leader all the way!!

I hear you brother! Nothing wrong with a leader, but its too much work for me. If I had the same results you had I might change my mind.

SirSnookalot reply :

If for no other reason I always use a leader with my braid , because I cast and retrieve lures with treble hooks as much as possible, the leader is so much easier to untangle than braid around hooks. A fish of any species is not an animal of intelligence, they do 2 things only that's eat and reproduce. Fish strike baits that are artificial, birds swoop down take a look at unlive bait and almost always fly away. Fish do not solve problems, do not reason, some get big because mother nature has given a particular one a set of genes tailored for survival, with luck bestowed on it as not to have been a meal for another fish, bird, gator, otter or man. If there is any conditioning, it's the fisherman that's been conditioned to recognize what stimulus will turn a fish of any species on.

Hogsticker reply :

Oh my goodness. Conditioned is a very good way to sum things up. If bass or fish in general are dumb as bricks, why aren't you filling your livewell every single time you go out? I use braid because because it handles much better and cast further than any nylon or fluoro line. More importantly it has zero stretch affording me much greater sensitivity when fishing bottom contact presentations. I've seen fish in shallow water who were line shy up close and personal several times. Thinner less visible line worked while others would not. You are talking about studies conducted in a controlled evviroment, not an adult fishes home habitat. Fish are spooky, I will leave it at that. Noise, shadows, line, on and on. When you say they are stupid what are you comparing them to, a banana? I'm out!

Hogsticker reply :

On 5/2/2013 at 11:29 PM, RoachDad said:

Hey guys, I am having fun with this subject!

the only way to prove the statements that a leader works is to have a control group of fish in a confined space and offer them matching baits with a leader or braid and see which one is taken most often over a period of time. I know all of us have been fishing a lure and for some reason it suddenly begins working. There is no way to prove this just because you are sure the leader helps you catch fish.

I did some knot research and it was enlightening (link below). Knots don't cause as much trouble as i thought.

when you tie a leader knot, your line is the strength of the weakest line at that knot.

1) an Albright knot is 94%. I thought it would be lower than that. So if you tie 12 lb mono leader on 20 lb braid, you are effectively fishing with 11 lb mono. Not bad!

2) However, all lines are actually stronger than their label. 12 lb mono is actually about 15 lb

3) However #2, any wrapping knot is totally dependent on how perfectly you tie it. If you overlap the lines you have a less than perfect knot

For me, i am lazy.

1) I don't like tying "line to line" knots. They are hard for me to tie

2) I don't like tying more knots than I have to tie

3) I don't believe a fish that thinks a jig is a crawfish cares about the line

4) I don't like how line knots go through rod eyes (unless you have a very short leader)

5) if my effective line strength and line size is 12 lb mono, I'd rather just spool up 12 lb mono.

The only reason I would use a leader is to have effetively 2 lines with out a second rod. If I wanted braid for an application, that woudl be spooled. If I wanted to use mono for something else, rather than have another rod with mono, just tie on a leader.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/bass/where-fish/2009/02/strongest-fishing-knots?photo=1#node-1001319720

I'm not trying to sound argumentative as well, and would like to spologize to the OP for this getting so off topic.

It sounds like you you show no credibility for a leader simply because you do not like tying knots. Do you think professional level anglers use a leader to try and push a product consisting of 2 feet of leader from small amounts of actual televised coverage? No, they use it because they believe it increases his/her chance of getting bit in tough conditions, and they wanna get paid. I fish all winter long trolling for trout. I can recall when I 1st started going out with my father-in-law. He was getting strikes and landing fish with regularity. I couldn't figure out why I was not. After two full seasons of this crap I gave into the fluoro leader he suggested several times over. Guess what? I started catching fish. Nothing different. Same minnow imitations, same distance behind the boat - just a leader. Long lining shallow jerk baits in clear shallow water. Just another example to somewhat put this to rest. It does have merit regardless as to how ignorant you think a fish is. Little planted rainbows and other young species, yeah, their quite stupid. Big fish - maybe you should give them a little more credit, just sayin

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 5:21 PM, Hogsticker said:
Do you think professional level anglers use a leader to try and push a product consisting of 2 feet of leader from small amounts of actual televised coverage?

Hogsticker, I don't believe a thing the pros do. I believe everything they do is to sell products. Sorry about that. I think they do lots of stuff on the camera that they do not do in real life. I like the pros and I watch the shows to see what they are doing, but I do what I think is best for me. I remember buying a "Dancin' Eel" about 20 years ago because I saw Bill Dance catching one bass after another. I never caught a thing with that lure.

The main reason I personally do not use a leader is it makes no sense to me. An added benefit is that I have one less knot to worry about. if I had the same results as you guys i would do the same thing. I catch bass at a comfortable level without leaders. If I fished with someone and was convinced they caught more fish because they had a leader, trust me, I'd be tying those knots like crazy.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 4:31 PM, Hogsticker said:
When you say they are stupid what are you comparing them to, a banana? I'm out!

Hogsticker, I feel like I have hurt your feelings and I apologize. I don't know how you rate intelligence but a bass is not even on an IQ scale. They are way dumber than a puppy. They have no intelligence. They are simply reacting on instinct.

Lure companies and rod and reel companies are working hard every day to catch fishermen not fish.

Being unintelligent does not make them easier to catch. They still have to be found. You still have to appeal to their animal instincts at that immediate moment. If you happen to find fish that are hungry they are easy to catch. But, if you find fish and they are not hungry you have to find a way to get them to strike.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 12:54 PM, SirSnookalot said:
If for no other reason I always use a leader with my braid , because I cast and retrieve lures with treble hooks as much as possible, the leader is so much easier to untangle than braid around hooks. A fish of any species is not an animal of intelligence, they do 2 things only that's eat and reproduce. Fish strike baits that are artificial, birds swoop down take a look at unlive bait and almost always fly away. Fish do not solve problems, do not reason, some get big because mother nature has given a particular one a set of genes tailored for survival, with luck bestowed on it as not to have been a meal for another fish, bird, gator, otter or man. If there is any conditioning, it's the fisherman that's been conditioned to recognize what stimulus will turn a fish of any species on.

I totally agree!

Hogsticker reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 7:53 PM, RoachDad said:

Hogsticker, I feel like I have hurt your feelings and I apologize. I don't know how you rate intelligence but a bass is not even on an IQ scale. They are way dumber than a puppy. They have no intelligence. They are simply reacting on instinct.

Lure companies and rod and reel companies are working hard every day to catch fishermen not fish.

Being unintelligent does not make them easier to catch. They still have to be found. You still have to appeal to their animal instincts at that immediate moment. If you happen to find fish that are hungry they are easy to catch. But, if you find fish and they are not hungry you have to find a way to get them to strike.

No feelings hurt, it's all good. I enjoy the debate. What can I say, some people are just super stubborn! The pros did not get to be pros by not knowing what they are doing. They wouldn't be very good at their job. None the less, it's safe to say that a lot of them push a product, and on the flip side of that coin some of them like to share and teach. Again, it's not really fair to compare the intelligence of a bass to a dog, grape, or gorilla, and just because you feel you catch your "fair share" of fish does not mean you can't catch more. And yes, they are reacting on instinct. An insticnt to not strike your lure because they relate seeing that line to pain. My suggestion to all reading this thread - take every advantage you can if you want to optimize your opportunity to be successful. Or don't

RoachDad reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 9:11 PM, Hogsticker said:
My suggestion to all reading this thread - take every advantage you can if you want to optimize your opportunity to be successful. Or don't

Yeah man! totally agree.

PABASS reply :

On 5/3/2013 at 6:27 AM, RoachDad said:

Man PABass, I have to admit that you stumped the ol RoachDad with that one!

Let me cipher a little.

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that conditioning is possible but with a feeder we are talking about something happening every day without fail. to say that a bass gets conditioned to a lure seems far fetched. they would have to get caught everytime they saw a certain lure and even then it woudl have to be day after day.

I've seen studies where bass are caught repeatedly with the same lure after 15 minutes or so. the memory of a bass is 15 minutes according to biologists.

Sorry OP I know I am way off topic here to show another viewpoint.

I have read and watched biologist say many things, the fact is we don't know, I am not saying biologist are off on the 15 minutes of memory as we humans understand Bass memory, Bass are not humans they didn't evolve to rely on memory. That is why I use the term conditioning. You could argue instinct is a form of memory that gets passed on through genes, which spans many millions of years of memory. I would imagine that automatic feeders break down, need to be fixed and or someone forgets to put feed in them, I would also imagine it would take longer then 15 minutes to remedy this issue, I would bet the fish would be quick to return once they felt the fish dispensing presence working again. I believe when a bass is actively feeding line probably doesn't matter, while I cant prove this with schooling bass line might not matter as much because of competition. But there are factors that line clarity matters, I have seen it, I have experienced it and I use it to my advantage. Look at other examples of people that have bass as pets on youtube, Bass know that they are being feed they recognize something, in the wild Bass swim away as soon as they see us in captivity they swim towards us, explain that conditioning, I would imagine most species of fish can be conditioned in this way, go to an aquarium and see for yourself.

I want to add, Erie PA and Gobbies, SMB never had this food source and now they do, and man do the fish exploit this and so do we and in this example the fish are as smart as a human.

RoachDad reply :

On 5/4/2013 at 2:39 AM, PABASS said:

in this example the fish are as smart as a human.

That is probably very true in many cases! Like me when I am trying to find the little boogers out there in the water.

WDinarte reply :

Ok, after I read the complete post...

Is the leader good or NOT ?.... I'm kidding.

trailer reply :

I don't have time to read the entire thread, but I did notice the argument of realistic, life-like presentations. What about the stinking treble hooks guys? I've never seen shad in the wild with trebles on their belly. And what about that big plastic lip on the cranks?

I'm on the fence but if fish shunned everything that wasn't 100% life-like we'd be in trouble. Forget about the line, what about that metal arm on the spinner bait or that huge black bristle coming from that "crawdad's" head?

BigAL reply :

65# or 80# go big brother u never know!!!!!

Got1Fishing reply :

Hey guys, if I want to buy braided line, say 50lbs, would size leader should I use? I have 8, 10, and 15lb FC, and 20lb Mono. Any of these good or should I buy another size? This is for jig fishing!

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