A Question To Shimano Fans 2024

cjam93 reply :

I want to start this by saying that I am not trying to start a fight or hate on a specific brand. I have noticed that people that fish Shimano more often than not are for lack of a better term fanboys. I do not mean this as an insult, simply that a lot of Shimano users seem to be Shimano or nothing. The exception it seems more often than not is Daiwa. Anyways, I have not had a lot of experience with Shimano baitcasters. I bought a Curado I after seeing all the talk, tried it and returned it pretty quickly. I will say I love the way it palms. However, the reel was not a very smooth one. I noticed that when I set the spool tension as I would with my other reels it made the handle turn almost stiffly like when you turn the tension very high. One of the things I have started valuing a lot in a reel is the weight. In that category the Curado seems to lack when compared to other reels in that price range.

Anyways, my question is what for you sets Shimano apart? What does Shimano offer in their reels that cause them to have such a following?

Bluebasser86 reply :

I would say the proven track record and customer service are both pretty high up there on why people choose Shimano. They've been making a quality product for a lot of years and are willing to back it up.

I'm also guessing that it feels like all people who like Shimano are "Fanboys", because those are the ones who are most vocal about it. I love all my Shimanos, but I also love my Lew's, Okuma, Daiwa, Pinnacle, H2O, and Pfluegars. Everyone I fish with owns some Shimanos, but they also own other brands and like them very much as well. I'm not married to any 1 brand, don't get any benefits for being brand loyal, so I buy what I think the best value and fit for my needs are. I think a lot of fishermen are moving towards that view of things too.

EvanT123 reply :

I don't have hundreds of dollars to try every rod or reel out there.

I've owned all the major brands and I would say the difference among them is marginal at best.

I like shimano for the resale value. I have a bunch and if it ever came to it I know I could get a reasonable return on my investment if I needed some quick cash. On the forums you see shimNos that might be a little beat up still go for a price close to new. It's very rare too see one go for half the original cost and when it does it's gone in 2 minutes.

The shimano reels I have purchased all seem to work well for me. Smoothness is hard to quantify for me so not something I worry about unless there is a noticeable grinding. I will say though my calcutta conquest is smoooooth.

I don't really clean my reels and have had some break and DVT fixed them for me. I think it's funny that people expect absolute perfection and ultimate longevity from a reel. It's a tool/product like anything else. tThere will be defects and design flaws. I've had and seen many models of cars break, washers/dryers, tv/electronics and everything else. Maybe there are forums with people whining about the quality of various products but I don't know.

Call me a fanboy but I get stuck in my ways. Shoot I have eaten the same thing for lunch for the past 2 years. My hard earned bucks are spent on things I know what to expect from.

clh121787 reply :

I think they have centrifugal brakes figured out very well. And that's one of the reasons I like them I hardly ever touch them. Ive had speedspool, smoke,revo,bps, and settled on shimano about 5 years ago. Until I have a reason to go elsewhere I'll stick with curados.

roadwarrior reply :

Strong, smooth, silent and reliant.

May the Force be with you...

It's called the Posse, the Shimano Posse.

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjt9rG5WJeQAwsUPxQt.;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcwMDU1OQRfcgMyBGZyA3locy1hZGstYWRrX3NibnQEZ3ByaWQDOHRXTmZndTRUeWVseVZZdkM0ZXdTQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDMTAEb3JpZ2luA3NlYXJjaC55YWhvby5jb20EcG9zAzAEcHFzdHIDBHBxc3RybAMEcXN0cmwDMTgEcXVlcnkDYmVlciBmb3IgbXkgaG9yc2VzBHRfc3RtcAMxNDUwMDkzNzU1?p=beer+for+my+horses&fr2=sb-top-search&hspart=adk&hsimp=yhs-adk_sbnt&param1=20151007&param2=5b713d63-f55a-4cf3-b074-228f1190a5ec&param3=email_xp_1.15~US~pythondirect&param4=pd_gs_email_yahoo_b~chrome&type=pythondirect_em_cr

Josh Smith reply :

The Ambassadeur guys just hang out on these threads and watch...

John G reply :

To the OP,

I personally think that you would have returned your Curado I (if you even bought one) no matter how much you liked it because let's be honest, you are as much of a Shimano Hater as I am a Shimano Fanboy and Elephants would grow wings and fly before a Shimano Hater such as yourself would get on this or any other Forum and rant and rave about how great it is.

deep reply :

Reliable casting. If anything, I like the SVS better than the old VBS. Still got 5 VBS Shimanos though.

I doubt other qualities are all that different in $100+ reels.

Preytorien reply :

I'm a "fanboy" but probably for different reasons.

I'm also a cyclist, and Shimano is one of the 3 current options you can select for drivetrain components. It's well known that Shimano for those parts are reputable for crisp, perfect, and durable shifting mile after mile. I've used them for years and had excellent success. Their brand reputation is second to none and is the reason the majority of teams in the Tour de France are using Shimano components, they speak for themselves. I'm sure sponsor dollars factor in, but with money on the line, a rider won't ride a brand that has a failure tendency.

When I got into fishing, which wasn't that long ago, it seemed a logical choice, and I must say I've been very pleased. I've never had a reel that didn't work very well and so far all have stayed very durable and reliable year after year.

Basswhippa reply :

I just completed two days of Umbrella rigging with a 20 year old Curado. Not one problem. That said, I have Swedish made ABU's that are just as old and older and almost as reliable. I got to throw the new 7 gear ratio Curado HG (or whatever they call it) and I'll have to say I was impressed at the smoothness and power it had over the heavy rig I was throwing. It sustained a strike at the boat by an almost 13 pound hybrid that almost took the rod out of my 6'4" boys hand. After a 10 minute fight on 65 pound braid and a flipping stick, it still felt brand new. Also love my beat up Calcutta 100 I got Christmas 95. It fishes like day one. I do maintain my reels, but I'm no DVT for sure.

Sam reply :

Confidence.

It is all about confidence in a brand.

When one finds a brand they like one will stick with it until the brand deteriorates or another competitor produces a better and more product.

Once again, I like Shimano as I have not had any problems with their reels.

Wayne Knabe of Powhatan, VA, who repairs, rebuilds, cleans and refurbishes freshwater and saltwater rods and reels told me years ago that the highest quality reels are Shimano.

Now, with Shimano no longer stocking the Curado 200 parts and the evolution of Daiwa, Wayne has added Daiwa to his list of the three reel brands he likes to work on:

Shimano

Lew's

Daiwa

If you have had good results with Abu Garcia, BPS, Cabela's, Pflueger, Field and Stream, KVD's Quantum, etc. then by all means stay with them.

It is all about confidence in a product.

Just like your favorite rods and baits.

Merry Christmas!

bigfruits reply :

ive tried several other brands throughout the years but keep coming back to shimano. ive decided not to mess with anything else again.

all shimano on the mountain bike too.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 12/14/2015 at 2:49 PM, cjam93 said:

... One of the things I have started valuing a lot in a reel is the weight. In that category the Curado seems to lack when compared to other reels in that price range.

Anyways, my question is what for you sets Shimano apart?

Hmmm... one thing that sets my curado i apart is the centrifugal brakes. Shimano has finally created a braking system that really works and works well with a minute external adjustment that has been missing in the past... I used my new curado i all this past summer and once I got it dialed in it was pretty much set it and forget it. And my new curado i is smooth.

Smoothness is directly related to just the two brass main drive gears pretty much- but can also involve the line guide gearing as well. So is it possible you might have gotten one with some gears that were not smooth? Possibly. I once bought a brand new curado G7 and right out of the box it was not smooth and I returned it for one that was. It happens.

I repair and rebuild and modify reels, so I definitely do not fit into the bag of being an all shimano kind of guy. I actually like and use reels that were made at one particular factory in South Korea- the same place where Abu, Lew's, Bass Pro, Browning, Quantum and others are made- all mostly made from the same tooling too so I can swap gears from a Quantum into a Browning or Bass Pro because they are the same size and made identical. Usually about the only difference sometimes is what the reel looks like on the outside.

It is kind of funny when I can open up a $300.00 Lew's reel and see the exact same set of gears I find inside of a used Quantum reel I bought on ebay for $25.00. Why the price disparity? A lot of it is just pure hype. When I need a set of gears I can sometimes just buy a broken reel off ebay for under $5.00 rather than a new set of gears at $30+.

Once upon a time I almost exclusively used only shimano reels, but today shimano makes up only about 50% or less of all the reels I use. And I have only one shimano rod and rarely if ever even use it.

To maintain a certain quality and durability for a reel in my opinion requires a certain amount of metal inside. I prefer only aluminum frames. Bass Pro makes some real cheapo reels built on an all plastic frame. They work, but they also break too. So I won't cut weight down past a certain point because I want strength and durability.

I am also not a big fan of plastic housings, but this seems to be the norm these days. Even my new curado i is plastic on the outside.

I have used Abu reels with aluminum gears, but I have moved away from them, and now all of my reels have only brass gears inside and I am staying right there.

So if you want to sacrifice weight, how far are you willing to go I am wondering? Down to plastic frames and aluminum gears and plastic drag stars?

I would really like to know what you are using now that you like more than shimano.

Logan S reply :

For casting reels, I prefer Shimano's braking systems over any other I've tried. Doesn't mean its the best, just what I like the best. For spinning reels I prefer Daiwa, I was a 'shim-bind-o' casualty...Had 5 Stradics that frustrated me to the point of swearing them off. I've heard the issue is fixed, but I've been very happy with Daiwa's product so I see no reason to switch back.

So I prefer both Shimano and Daiwa. I even put Shimano reels on Daiwa rods...Just because .

Dwight Hottle reply :

Longevity.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

Yeah Dwight, I hope you are doing well these days! I agree with longevity. I am still using an old shimano Bantam Black Magnum from the mid 80's on a flippin' stick and it is still in like new condition now 30 years later. You just can't break it. Built like a tank.

While on the other hand I have broken newer reels very quickly...

Ohio Archer reply :

I'm still running the ones I bought in the '80s...Bantam models, all left hand retrieve. Because back then Shimano was about the only ones offering a left hand real. I also have a couple of Diawas that are LH. BPS didn't have big box stores so all of them came out of the catalogs. They all perform fine. I even picked up a couple more off of Ebay for about $18 a piece a couple months ago. With reels going for well over $100 a pop, why would I change?

iabass8 reply :

Jrob listens to coldplay

Catt reply :

Solid as an anvil, versatile as a pair of ChannelLocks, dependable as a 30/30!

Calcutta 100A 30 plus yrs

Calcutta 100A 25-30 yrs

Calcutta 50A 20-25 yrs

Cardiff 100D 20 yrs

Cardiff 100D 15 yrs

All have original parts except the 50. I changed the paw!

Josh Smith reply :

This reminds me that I need to fix my front shifter on my old Schwinn.

It's a Shimano shifter and the cable finally broke... 25 years after I got the bike!

Josh

A-Jay reply :

On 12/14/2015 at 2:49 PM, cjam93 said:

I want to start this by saying that I am not trying to start a fight or hate on a specific brand. I have noticed that people that fish Shimano more often than not are for lack of a better term fanboys. I do not mean this as an insult, simply that a lot of Shimano users seem to be Shimano or nothing. The exception it seems more often than not is Daiwa. Anyways, I have not had a lot of experience with Shimano baitcasters. I bought a Curado I after seeing all the talk, tried it and returned it pretty quickly. I will say I love the way it palms. However, the reel was not a very smooth one. I noticed that when I set the spool tension as I would with my other reels it made the handle turn almost stiffly like when you turn the tension very high. One of the things I have started valuing a lot in a reel is the weight. In that category the Curado seems to lack when compared to other reels in that price range.

Anyways, my question is what for you sets Shimano apart? What does Shimano offer in their reels that cause them to have such a following?

The question as to why any product is popular is almost always answered the same way.

It often revolves around price, quality and availability. Ranking high in these characteristics offers a favorable reputation which can cause prospective buyers to look that way first.

When one does not have experience with a particular brand, as you have admitted, it can make it tough to understand the reasons for it's popularity.

As I see it, there are three basic paths to go about answering your question. You can either believe the reviews of those who do have experience using that brand.

Disregard it based on preconceived judgment or opinion formed without just grounds or sufficient knowledge.

Try it for yourself and form your own opinion.

If you choose this route, I'd recommend becoming familiar with more than one model.

A-Jay

cjam93 reply :

On 12/14/2015 at 10:13 PM, FloridaFishinFool said:

Hmmm... one thing that sets my curado i apart is the centrifugal brakes. Shimano has finally created a braking system that really works and works well with a minute external adjustment that has been missing in the past... I used my new curado i all this past summer and once I got it dialed in it was pretty much set it and forget it. And my new curado i is smooth.

Smoothness is directly related to just the two brass main drive gears pretty much- but can also involve the line guide gearing as well. So is it possible you might have gotten one with some gears that were not smooth? Possibly. I once bought a brand new curado G7 and right out of the box it was not smooth and I returned it for one that was. It happens.

I repair and rebuild and modify reels, so I definitely do not fit into the bag of being an all shimano kind of guy. I actually like and use reels that were made at one particular factory in South Korea- the same place where Abu, Lew's, Bass Pro, Browning, Quantum and others are made- all mostly made from the same tooling too so I can swap gears from a Quantum into a Browning or Bass Pro because they are the same size and made identical. Usually about the only difference sometimes is what the reel looks like on the outside.

It is kind of funny when I can open up a $300.00 Lew's reel and see the exact same set of gears I find inside of a used Quantum reel I bought on ebay for $25.00. Why the price disparity? A lot of it is just pure hype. When I need a set of gears I can sometimes just buy a broken reel off ebay for under $5.00 rather than a new set of gears at $30+.

Once upon a time I almost exclusively used only shimano reels, but today shimano makes up only about 50% or less of all the reels I use. And I have only one shimano rod and rarely if ever even use it.

To maintain a certain quality and durability for a reel in my opinion requires a certain amount of metal inside. I prefer only aluminum frames. Bass Pro makes some real cheapo reels built on an all plastic frame. They work, but they also break too. So I won't cut weight down past a certain point because I want strength and durability.

I am also not a big fan of plastic housings, but this seems to be the norm these days. Even my new curado i is plastic on the outside.

I have used Abu reels with aluminum gears, but I have moved away from them, and now all of my reels have only brass gears inside and I am staying right there.

So if you want to sacrifice weight, how far are you willing to go I am wondering? Down to plastic frames and aluminum gears and plastic drag stars?

I would really like to know what you are using now that you like more than shimano.

Right now I have a mixture of Lews, Okuma, and Quantum reels. My favorite is Lews. I have use BB1s for cranking, and then have a tournament lite as well. Those are my favorite reels. I have an Okuma Helios that I really like a lot, its just really comfortable. The Quantums are Smokes I bought at the classic because they had them at a really good deal. Two of them are holding up well and the other has drag slipping problems which I havent figured out. I actually really like the way the good ones I have preforms, but the bad one of the group has me wondering if the other ones are going to stay solid or not. I appreciate the answer though thanks that makes a lot of sense.

On 12/14/2015 at 8:03 PM, John G said:

To the OP,

I personally think that you would have returned your Curado I (if you even bought one) no matter how much you liked it because let's be honest, you are as much of a Shimano Hater as I am a Shimano Fanboy and Elephants would grow wings and fly before a Shimano Hater such as yourself would get on this or any other Forum and rant and rave about how great it is.

Im not sure why the attitude here, sorry if I offended you. I do not hate Shimano though, actually for years they were the only brand I would use in spinning reels. I only moved away from them recently because I was not crazy about the new smaller frames they used on the Sahara and Symetre. I have just never seen for me what made Shimano baitcasters set apart for so many people and I was curious.

Raul reply :

On 12/14/2015 at 2:49 PM, cjam93 said:

Anyways, my question is what for you sets Shimano apart? What does Shimano offer in their reels that cause them to have such a following?

They are like the Duracell bunny or like a Jeep, they just keep on going and going and going no matter what you throw at them.

Daiwas are super refined ( I own a few ones ), Abus used to be great ( I also have a few ), Shimanos are not as refined but they stand punishment a lot better and seldomly let you down.

kickerfish1 reply :

Longevity, reliability, performance, resale value, and reel choices from round reels, to finesse to long distance not to mention tuning options and even super light weight reels. Seems to also have every price point covered from budget to rich folks.

stkbassn reply :

For me I really love the ease of use. Shimano has always been less touchy save a few exceptions in my experience. I also love the quality look and feel of Shimano's save a few exceptions. I've always thought Curado's were very smooth. I am not a big fan of the 200I series and much prefer the D and E series to any Curado ever made before or after. I do not like the braking system on the I series, that's the only gripe for me. I thought it was pretty sweet otherwise. My Metanium and Chronarchs are smoother.

k3bass reply :

I love my old curado d's, chronarch d's, and Calais. I've hated every other shimano casting reel I've owned since. I've owned numerous shimano spinning reels and hated all of them but my stradic fj's and ci4+'s. The fj's and ci4's are the only shimano spinning reels that I haven't had binding issues with.

Shimano reels seem to loose their smoothness much faster than other reels, that is when they are actually smooth to begin with. Their customer service has gone from the best to the absolute worst.

baxtervol reply :

Shimano has been in the fishing business a long time and you don't make it that long without being quality.

shaggydog reply :

chronarch 50e and a lews tp is a draw. I fish both and would hate to part with either one. I think people like say how lews and abu are made in the same korean plant like that makes them worse. I bought a curado I and returned it the very next day. If you take care of your equipment it last. Sometimes I fish with a shimano fanboy and when I do I use my abu's. Its fun catching more fish with my inferior equipment while he can stand there holding his stick loving shimano.

PitchinJigz reply :

On 12/14/2015 at 8:01 PM, Josh Smith said:
The Ambassadeur guys just hang out on these threads and watch...

You mean the *rare Ambassadeur guy?

Ambassadeurs are good reels, but the old ones are where it's at and the new ones are nowhere near them.

Carterjig68 reply :

I'm not partial to any brand currently and have not used them all... but so far I like shimano the most. For me, they feel extremely well put together and strong. They are also very versatile and can be found in almost any price range. And from what I've felt, most seem pretty smooth to me.

QUAKEnSHAKE reply :

Just buy the superior, Made in Japan, models by Shimano or Daiwa that Lews Abu cant touch in reliability quality refinement. Leave Lews Abu lower grade less quality gear Korean made stuff for presents to your not so best friends.

cjam93 reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 11:05 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:
Just buy the superior, Made in Japan, models by Shimano or Daiwa that Lews Abu cant touch in reliability quality refinement. Leave Lews Abu lower grade less quality gear Korean made stuff for presents to your not so best friends.

Now Id like to try a JDM I have not handled one of them. I do love Daiwa from what I have seen of them. Where can you go buy jdms I do not know. Thanks!

iabass8 reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 11:39 AM, cjam93 said:
Now Id like to try a JDM I have not handled one of them. I do love Daiwa from what I have seen of them. Where can you go buy jdms I do not know. Thanks!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=JDM+fishing+reels

QUAKEnSHAKE reply :

Im just messing around btw.

But the Japan made reels are sold in usa like the chronarchs/curado E series, Chronarch CI4, Metaniums, Daiwa SV, Steeze some others

But lower tiered reels like Curado I, and Daiwa Tatula are not Japan made reels they are made in Malaysia and Thailand.

cjam93 reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 11:48 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

Im just messing around btw.

But the Japan made reels are sold in usa like the chronarchs/curado E series, Chronarch CI4, Metaniums, Daiwa SV, Steeze some others

But lower tiered reels like Curado I, and Daiwa Tatula are not Japan made reels they are made in Malaysia and Thailand.

Oh haha ok my fault. I didnt realize those are the jdm ones. I was thinking about giving Shimano another shot though which is why I started this post.

On 12/15/2015 at 11:51 AM, gulfcaptain said:
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I like my BPS Black Carbonlites, my Quantum EXO and TourMG, and that reel company that has a great "concept" but has an unlucky number. I have fished with Shimano's, just have moved away and towards something else. Sorry, please continue and carry on.

Haha I have two Carbonlites also those two have been going strong for a while now and cast as good as a lot of the reels I own. How do you like that other reel you mentioned? I love the way they feel from handling display models, but I do not know anyone that owns them to see how they work for extended use on the water. Also so many reels now days can be found on the auction site or other websites way lower than they are actually listed for, but that has not proved to be true of that reel from when I have looked for it so I have never pulled the trigger on one.

gulfcaptain reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 12:02 PM, cjam93 said:

Oh haha ok my fault. I didnt realize those are the jdm ones. I was thinking about giving Shimano another shot though which is why I started this post.

Haha I have two Carbonlites also those two have been going strong for a while now and cast as good as a lot of the reels I own. How do you like that other reel you mentioned? I love the way they feel from handling display models, but I do not know anyone that owns them to see how they work for extended use on the water. Also so many reels now days can be found on the auction site or other websites way lower than they are actually listed for, but that has not proved to be true of that reel from when I have looked for it so I have never pulled the trigger on one.

Don't want to hijack this post, I'll send you some feedback on a PM

JGBassinAL reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 7:55 AM, shaggydog said:
chronarch 50e and a lews tp is a draw. I fish both and would hate to part with either one. I think people like say how lews and abu are made in the same korean plant like that makes them worse. I bought a curado I and returned it the very next day. If you take care of your equipment it last. Sometimes I fish with a shimano fanboy and when I do I use my abu's. Its fun catching more fish with my inferior equipment while he can stand there holding his stick loving shimano.

The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

bootytrain reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 1:08 PM, JGBassinAL said:
The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

I'm pretty sure he woke up from his dream after that lol

gulfcaptain reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 1:08 PM, JGBassinAL said:
The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

Some guys just know how to use their equipment better then others, and then some guys just fish with people that can't fish because it makes them feel better.....lol I have buddies that fish Shimano, but their lack of catching has NOTHING to do with the equipment and more to do with their unwilliingness to change presentations.

IowaHusker28 reply :

Now I fish with mostly Lews reels because I think they are the best bang for the buck and have had great experiences with them. I also own Abu's, Quantum's, Shimano's, 1 pro Qualifier and 1 Tatula because I think it is fun to try other brands and I am a sucker for amazing deals. I totally understand the hype of Shimano and if money weren't an Issue, I'd buy nothing but Shimanos (or Steeze's) because they are an amazing reel. I use 2 Curado's to crank with and I abuse them more than any reel in the box, 10xd's to 1.5's yet they continue to preform like new.

I was once told of a story that a customer came into a store and asked why they should buy a Curado that only has 5 bearings rather than a "Insert brand" with 10. (obviously a less educated fisherman but nevertheless)

He told the customer, Shimano is so exact and precise they only need 5. They can do with 5 what a different company can do with 10.

And that right there is a pretty great point. Shimano is a gear, bearing, manufacturing company, they know what they are talking about and looking for when putting a reel together.

A grand following, amazing support, and proven performance. That is all.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 2:46 PM, IowaHusker28 said:

Shimano is so exact and precise they only need 5. They can do with 5 what a different company can do with 10.

I have also heard shimano reps say something similar, but I will have disagree with this statement. For example, take the shimano stradic FJ series reel. It has 5 bearings, but in the new stradic reels you now find more bearings. Why the change?

In my old stradic spinning reel I found a peculiar situation when I opened it up for the first time. On the main drive gear I found only one ball bearing on one side and white plastic cheap bushing on the other side. Odd how that cheap plastic bushing was exactly the same size as the ball bearing on the other side. Coincidence? Hardly. Engineers designed the reel to accommodate ball bearings on BOTH sides of the main drive gear but for some reason it was left out on one side.

Can you imagine building cars this way? On an axle to have a ball bearing on one side only and bushings on the other side? It does not make sense, but it does make cents.

The whole reason to use a ball bearing is to improve ease of operation and smoothness, but if you use a plastic bushing on the other side it tends to add friction which really defeats the purpose of the ball bearing in the first place. Needless to say it, but that cheap plastic bushing was thrown in the trash can and a ball bearing was installed so that now both sides of the main drive gear had ball bearings exactly as the original engineers designed it.

I saw this same thing years ago back in the 1980's with shimano's bantam reels. On the lower priced reels shimano inserted a brass bushing rather than a ball bearing, but the bushing was exactly the same size as the ball bearing so they were interchangeable. While on the more expensive reels they went with ball bearings rather than brass bushings.

Shimano was using the bearing/bushing situation as a sales gimmick and nothing more. It was not engineering a better reel WITHOUT bearings. This is not the case.

Another issue I have with shimano is they use a single bearing on the rotor of most of their spinning reels. I used some shimano spinning reels for years until they developed a little bit of a wobble. Then I discovered other brands were going to a double ball bearing system in the rotors which is much more stable and solid.

To this day shimano has yet to follow suit, and if they have I am not aware of it, but regardless, I use spinning reels now with a double bearing system in the rotor and really like it.

I have more than 30 years of experience in repairing and modifying reels and in my opinion less is not always better.

For years shimano steadfastly resisted putting ball bearings into their handles. Why? Why did I have to use squeaky handles for years that required oil to help them spin freely? My old stradic had a squeaky no-bearing handle. I want ball bearings in my handles on spinning reels and casting reels. I don't want someone at shimano making this decision for me. It is not up to them. It is up to me the paying customer.

Shimano is losing market share percentage today because other companies are going to the extreme to surpass them in many ways. Brand loyalty is gone for the most part. In my opinion shimano did it to themself. They have no one to blame but themself for why people like myself now spend money on other brands to get what we want, not what shimano dictates.

---------------------------------------------

ADDED- here are some of the shimano bushings they put inside their reels instead of ball bearings. Notice the cheap plastic bushing is the same size as the ball bearings?

Do you think shimano is using these to make a better reel?

Here is a shimano cheap plastic bushing used where? On a spool shaft! Yeah, that'll really help to increase casting distance! Shimano SPOOL SHAFT BUSHING © P/N BNT0880

And here is a pair of shimano spinning reel main drive shaft cheap plastic bushings... the same type I found in my stradic! (And replaced with real bearings...)

Here is a brass bushing used on the spool for a shimano calcutta 50:

All of these bushings are made the same size as ball bearing sizes. Shimano uses these because they are cheaper than using ball bearings. Gives shimano a higher profit margin for every corner they can cut.

The question to ask here is, do these bushings make a better reel? My answer is no. It is clear the original reel designers and engineers intended for ball bearings to be used in these locations and somewhere in the shimano corporate chain they decided to use these cheaper bushings in their cheaper reels and only use more ball bearings in their higher end reels as a sales gimmick.

It is clearly not about making a better reel with fewer bearings. These bushings are in my opinion short-changing the paying customer. No other way to look at it in my opinion.

So when some shimano rep tries to tell me how many bearings I need- they are full of it! I tell them how many I want since I am the one paying!

Raul reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 1:08 PM, JGBassinAL said:
The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

Yes you should switch, you don't wanna miss all them fish you can ketch by fishing with other reel brands. I also noticed I catch twice as much fish when fishing with my Daiwas.

roadwarrior reply :

Perfect...

Racerx reply :

I really don't hold brand loyalty, persay. This carries over to more than just fishing gear (I've been a guitarist for over 35 years, so this topic has come up MANY TIMES). That said, when I was looking for new reels this year, two brands seemed to shine in my price range: Shimano and Pfleuger. I walked away with one of each, and love them both.

bootytrain reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 9:21 PM, FloridaFishinFool said:

I have also heard shimano reps say something similar, but I will have disagree with this statement. For example, take the shimano stradic FJ series reel. It has 5 bearings, but in the new stradic reels you now find more bearings. Why the change?

In my old stradic spinning reel I found a peculiar situation when I opened it up for the first time. On the main drive gear I found only one ball bearing on one side and white plastic cheap bushing on the other side. Odd how that cheap plastic bushing was exactly the same size as the ball bearing on the other side. Coincidence? Hardly. Engineers designed the reel to accommodate ball bearings on BOTH sides of the main drive gear but for some reason it was left out on one side.

Can you imagine building cars this way? On an axle to have a ball bearing on one side only and bushings on the other side? It does not make sense, but it does make cents.

The whole reason to use a ball bearing is to improve ease of operation and smoothness, but if you use a plastic bushing on the other side it tends to add friction which really defeats the purpose of the ball bearing in the first place. Needless to say it, but that cheap plastic bushing was thrown in the trash can and a ball bearing was installed so that now both sides of the main drive gear had ball bearings exactly as the original engineers designed it.

I saw this same thing years ago back in the 1980's with shimano's bantam reels. On the lower priced reels shimano inserted a brass bushing rather than a ball bearing, but the bushing was exactly the same size as the ball bearing so they were interchangeable. While on the more expensive reels they went with ball bearings rather than brass bushings.

Shimano was using the bearing/bushing situation as a sales gimmick and nothing more. It was not engineering a better reel WITHOUT bearings. This is not the case.

Another issue I have with shimano is they use a single bearing on the rotor of most of their spinning reels. I used some shimano spinning reels for years until they developed a little bit of a wobble. Then I discovered other brands were going to a double ball bearing system in the rotors which is much more stable and solid.

To this day shimano has yet to follow suit, and if they have I am not aware of it, but regardless, I use spinning reels now with a double bearing system in the rotor and really like it.

I have more than 30 years of experience in repairing and modifying reels and in my opinion less is not always better.

For years shimano steadfastly resisted putting ball bearings into their handles. Why? Why did I have to use squeaky handles for years that required oil to help them spin freely? My old stradic had a squeaky no-bearing handle. I want ball bearings in my handles on spinning reels and casting reels. I don't want someone at shimano making this decision for me. It is not up to them. It is up to me the paying customer.

Shimano is losing market share percentage today because other companies are going to the extreme to surpass them in many ways. Brand loyalty is gone for the most part. In my opinion shimano did it to themself. They have no one to blame but themself for why people like myself now spend money on other brands to get what we want, not what shimano dictates.

---------------------------------------------

ADDED- here are some of the shimano bushings they put inside their reels instead of ball bearings. Notice the cheap plastic bushing is the same size as the ball bearings?

Do you think shimano is using these to make a better reel?

Here is a shimano cheap plastic bushing used where? On a spool shaft! Yeah, that'll really help to increase casting distance! Shimano SPOOL SHAFT BUSHING © P/N BNT0880

And here is a pair of shimano spinning reel main drive shaft cheap plastic bushings... the same type I found in my stradic! (And replaced with real bearings...)

Here is a brass bushing used on the spool for a shimano calcutta 50:

All of these bushings are made the same size as ball bearing sizes. Shimano uses these because they are cheaper than using ball bearings. Gives shimano a higher profit margin for every corner they can cut.

The question to ask here is, do these bushings make a better reel? My answer is no. It is clear the original reel designers and engineers intended for ball bearings to be used in these locations and somewhere in the shimano corporate chain they decided to use these cheaper bushings in their cheaper reels and only use more ball bearings in their higher end reels as a sales gimmick.

It is clearly not about making a better reel with fewer bearings. These bushings are in my opinion short-changing the paying customer. No other way to look at it in my opinion.

So when some shimano rep tries to tell me how many bearings I need- they are full of it! I tell them how many I want since I am the one paying!

Shimano losing market share? According to whom? There was an article in Bassmaster magazine that stated shimano was the top selling reel brand in 2014.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 11:42 PM, bootytrain said:
Shimano losing market share? According to whom? There was an article in Bassmaster magazine that stated shimano was the top selling reel brand in 2014.

Really simple math honestly. You can still be the best selling while also losing market shares, and mark my words it is happening simply going by the numbers.

Back in the 1980's when shimano was establishing their reputation just look at the field of other brands that were available back then- it was far fewer than today. Shimano stood out, but those days are over. Today we have many more brands who have come into the market like Okuma for one who has increased their market share recently by 15% each year for 5 years and growing.

Okuma can only increase their market share by taking away from others. And they are not alone. Other reel manufacturers have stepped up to the plate and now offer reels of comparable quality and features and people like myself are turning away from shimano for this reason. More choices and better prices. Simple math dictates shimano can not always carve out increasing market shares forever. From what all I can tell they peaked long ago and are now on the decline in market share percentage as many other companies are increasing their market shares. It goes up and down all the time. It is never the same or carved in stone.

I based my opinion on my years of experience repairing reels for one where we use to see higher numbers of shimano reels, but today we see just about everything and decreasing numbers of shimano reels- and opinions of them. People are buying other brands. No doubt about it. That alone tells me shimano is losing market shares. They have to be. Simple math dictates it.

And if you keep up with the industry, you can review the shimano financial statements to see where their losses are and how shimano tries to minimize those numbers for their share holders by keeping track of their consolidated financial statements reports issued annually, (here is 2013 as an example) and also by keeping track of the World Fishing Equipment Market Report . They often tell a differing story since shimano pads the numbers for their shareholders. The shimano reports have an agenda while the equipment market reports are not trying to show shareholders favorable numbers. These are just a couple of sources I read up on from time to time to see where the markets are and heading to.

From the shimano financial statement report:

"Sales from other segments decreased 10.3% from the previous year to 376 million yen and an operating loss of 135 million yen was recorded, following an operating loss of 326 million yen the previous year."

Heck shimano is even losing considerable market shares in the bicycle market too: SBS to stop selling Shimano components . Take a read on their reasoning why: ""We have an enormous amount of respect for the quality and engineering of Shimano components, and we have appreciated the opportunity to be a distributor of Shimano in the U.S. market,” said Chris Speyer, managing director of ANA. “Shimano has worked hard to establish a direct-to-dealer distribution network. We appreciate the opportunity that Shimano provided in allowing SBS to be one of the select group of distributors of their products, but in the long term it is clear to us that most dealers will focus their purchasing directly with Shimano. Therefore, based on our focused approach around P&A, we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

Translation of this line: "we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

Profit margin for shimano dropped meaning shimano's wholesale prices were too high for this distributor to make money distributing shimano so bye shimano! They will focus on cheaper brands that will sustain them in the future with more profit. Sell your own overpriced products shimano!

Bottom line is I added it all up and said "shimano is losing market shares" as my opinion of the overall market situation as I see it and I should have clarified that point, but then again, I also considered it a general given.

Do any of you follow the work of Alan Tani? He is a notable reel tech who is good at what he does and I have followed him for years. He has his own website and forum dedicated to reel repairs and modifications and on his site you will find some interesting discussion about shimano and other brands...

"PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE" in SHIMANO Reels ???

« on: February 09, 2015, 10:51:36 AM »

I was surfing the web and came across a couple of interesting items about SHIMANO reels, up to and including the STELLA, outlining problems that seem to transcend all levels of SHIMANO reels.

forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?105525-Why-I-Will-Never-Buy-Another-Shimano-Product-Short-Life-Span

forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?104471-Stella-6000FA-Repair

I wanted to share this for those considering purchasing SHIMANO reels in the future, as well as current owners . . . Something to take into consideration!

Tight Lines !

---------------------------------

Ahh "Planned Obsolescence"... Blame Osram, Phillips and other Light Bulb companies for this term and this act.

I knew years ago when Shimano Australia was headed by the late Mr John Dunphy (RIP), that Shimano prided themselves on having spare parts for 10 years minimum. Daiwa was a issue a couple of years ago where I had a 2005 Daiwa Laguna 2000 spin reel and it needed a new gear set both pinion and drive gear, a couple of eMails thrown around internally at Daiwa and a reply to me saw a new reel land on my doorstep 2 days later (no questions asked).

They, being Daiwa reproduce parts however could take 18 months or more for them to redo parts runs (limited quantities)...

Shimano, well "who knows"... Parts are expensive enough for what they are - I guess they have to keep making money somehow???

I guess its just down to how much does a reel cost to replace these days. Something I constantly tell my people that I service for, a reel worth $130 AUD is only worth servicing twice in its lifetime over maybe 3 years or so depending on use and dunking in water. And just looking after it between service intervals with oiling critical areas.

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We are moving to a throw away society more and more. I have found this with lower end reels from all manufacturers not having available parts less than 12 months after being superseded by a new model. And i believe this will start happening with higher end reels sooner rather than later. It is called "Profit Margin".

--------------------------------------------------------

Andrew, Dutchy, and others are right --

Most folks like us would like to be loyal to a manufacturer, and also for that producer of our reels to be loyal to us -- in turn.

However, this Pollyanna approach on our part is not realistic in today's global economy.

The Internet we all love has changed that -- now we can sit in our pajamas -- and order anything we need -- and it will be delivered to our doorstep between 2 and 6 days.

As we have adjusted to this new retail consumer market -- the companies that intend to stay in business, have also changed their old views and methods of interacting with their customers (or they are no longer in business).

They feel they have needed to throw out the ideas such as Loyalty, Support, Longevity of products, Quality, and even Employee Appreciation.

Penn, Daiwa, Shimano, and Okuma -- all have similar stories, nowadays.

History is an interesting teacher --

Penn pioneered a new, less expensive tackle market that persevered for many decades. Penn's success forced other manufacturers to close down shop -- including Ocean City.

Daiwa flooded the market with literally thousands of various reel models and variations -- and widely different qualities and price ranges.

Shimano saw the success of Penn and Daiwa -- and decided to build both cheap quality and very high quality reels. They based part of their business model on really taking good care of the consumer, dealer, and repair shop. In a majority of cases -- when a part was no longer available, a consumer was unhappy, a repair guy complained about certain issues with a reel -- Shimano would just either take care of the issue at no charge, or give the shop or consumer a newer, more advanced reel out of the box. No questions asked. Great advertisement -- and this extra effort insured brand loyalty for years to come.

Now comes Okuma on the scene. They look at Penn, Daiwa, and Shimano -- see what has worked, and what has failed -- and decided to concentrate on building both average and very high quality reels. Give clients a little extra, increase quality yearly, and earn their place at the table.

But as a consumer, whether we pay $1,300 for a Stella, $120 for a Lethal 100, $70 for a Jigmaster, or $24.99 for a low end Daiwa -- we need to realize that these companies are not going to keep new parts in stock forever. We will be fortunate to have parts support for 2 or 3 years -- that is the reality as we are brutally honest with ourselves.

When we can buy a printer for less than the replacement ink cartridge, or get a new expensive cell phone new every two years -- how can we expect anything different from the reel manufacturers -- who are using the same business model as every 21st Century company?

Planned obselescence -- it will be interesting to watch.

--------------------------------------------

Alan Tani said: i had a conversation with the okuma guys a couple of years ago. their market share had increased 15% a year for 5 years in a row. all by listening to their customers.

--------------------------------------------

Good for Okuma. I'm glad for them.

Penn has really created a customer loyalty marketing plan from the beginning as I see it. We all have started out with their fairly inexpensive Squidders, Jigmasters, Senators,...on the conventional side, and Penn's silver series spinners. All very reliable and inexpensive to maintain. Then we moved up to the International Series and the SS series reels based on our loyalty and our confident reliability from Penn.

Daiwa too had their many planned obsolescence if you look at their line-up but there were some true reels that gained Daiwa's loyalty and trust. Daiwa's Sealine series from the 900H, 600H,...down to the 27H aluminum framed and side plate reels. I have not see one of those gears shred yet. They are real beefy, that's for sure. And for their Spinners, the Black Gold line of reels. I still have and use mine from probably 30 years ago. Strong solid spinner reel that would honestly compete with Penn's SS series growing up in Hawaii.

I think Planned Obsolescence was really created by USA's automobile industry. At one time, cars were though to be used for 5 years then we would turn in the old car and buy a new one. Then parts would be available for another 10 years just in case someone kept their car a little longer. Prior to that, it was common for us Americans to drive a car for 10 years or longer. They were easy to fix and parts were readily available even though the car was 20+ years old. The Japanese automotive industry took what us Americans used to do and created a line of cars that lasted easily 300k miles before a rebuild was even considered. They have created customer loyalty based on this. Today, car companies cannot just survive on this customer loyalty, so cars too have gone the way of planned obsolescence....

BTW, for Stellas, I have found that if you send Shimano a Stella reel, they will likely charge you the service fee, but parts are usually free. My friends in Hawaii fish their Stellas very hard for GT. They have stripped gears almost every year, and for the past 3 years, they have sent their reels in to Shimano and have been getting replacement gears for free. Granted, if they had to pay $50 or more for a gear set every year, they would not continue to buy Stellas to complete their fishing reel line up...from 10# to 80# braid. Bling bling...I feel poor just thinking about it.....

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If you listen to general discussion like the above found on Alan Tani's forum, it is clear shimano is throwing their reputation down the drain with overpriced everything! This is why they are losing market shares and why other companies are increasing theirs!

I think it is a safe bet to say "my opinion" is more grounded in truth and reality than just a loose opinion of mine thrown around carelessly.

***I am having to remove links to post this info here...

Josh Smith reply :

FloridaFishinFool: Do you have any idea how many bushings I've replaced with ball bearings?

The reels include Abu Garcia and Quantum.

Bushings are preferred in some applications. For example, I have an Ambassadeur 5500 with bushings. I kept the spool bushings but switched the driveshaft and levelwind to bearings.

Likewise, one I converted might be getting switched back on the spool.

Bearings are largely market driven. Customers think more bearings are better, so they pay more for reels with more bearings which may not necessarily be better.

Bearings need to go in the levelwind if the levelwind doesn't disengage on the cast, on the crankshaft, and either bearings or nylon bushings need to go into the reel handle. Grease the nylon bushings and they work well.

In older Quantum reels, the driveshaft needs bearings replacing the bushing, but that's mostly it unless you're throwing light lures as a habit.

Smooth gears, plastic only where needed, and carbon drags go a longer way to making a better reel than loading up with bearings.

Josh

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 12:59 AM, Josh Smith said:

FloridaFishinFool: Do you have any idea how many bushings I've replaced with ball bearings?

Smooth gears, plastic only where needed, and carbon drags go a longer way to making a better reel than loading up with bearings.

Josh

Yes, I have an idea because I have done it for years and years, decades even. I use to actually save the bushings for what I have no idea now. I tossed all of them into the recycle bin long ago.

Every time I come across a bushing in any reel of mine, out it comes and ball bearings are installed. No if's, and's, or but's. I want ball bearings, not bushings.

I guess the term "better reel" has various interpretations! But I hear ya!

My days of having plastic or brass bushings on a baitcast reel spool went out with the 1980's! Never again! But if some people like bushings over bearings it is AOK with me... but I'm not turning back now.

You said we pay more for more bearings in more expensive reels which to some degree might be true, but from my perspective I pay more for a shimano reel with fewer ball bearings and less for other brand reels with MORE ball bearings!

Most of my baitcast reels have 10 ball bearings. I like it. I want it. And I will not let shimano decide this for me. Not any more. Today shimano reels are about 50% of what I use down from nearly 100% years ago. The reason is simple, other companies are giving me what I want for less while shimano wants to tell me what I need which is less for more $$$$. Today shimano no longer owns my brand loyalty because of what they do. Here is yet another prime example:

The above image is a spool from a shimano calcutta. It clearly shows a very cheap plastic bushing mounted on the spool. This is a money saving cut-corner shimano took. I get less while they keep their prices and profit margin up there, but I, the paying customer are short-changed by shimano and the reel does not cast as far since this plastic bushing offers the spool friction by NOT spinning with the spool when I cast it. This crappola is NOT allowed on my reels! Ticks me off every time I see this on any brand reel.

On all of my calcutta's, I knock out the pin, pull off that cheap plastic bushing and install a ceramic hybrid ball bearing so that all 3 spool bearings are ceramic hybrids. No cheap plastic short-cuts on my calcutta's! Bad shimano!

But, one of those cheap Korean made Bass Pro reels actually comes from the factory with a stainless steel ball bearing in the same position on the spool where shimano short-cuts with a plastic bushing:

So why does a $50 Bass Pro reel come factory with 3 stainless steel ball bearings on the spool, but a $250 shimano calcutta has a cheap plastic bushing on the spool?

The drive shaft is another place to make a cost saving short cut and shimano knows it and does it.

And another spot to do it:

Found another shimano ball bearing shortage with the curado 50e and 51e:

Chance_Taker4 reply :

I agree with the OP. I liked the old green Curado and Citica are great but I did not like the Curado I it cast a mile and was nice to hold but I had a problem with the handle such as yourself. I was told at bass pro that it was a defect with the first Curado I that came out that it should be fixed. But looking at all reels I don't see why the new gen Shimano are priced high I feel you pay for the name. The curado has the same specs as a Revo SX, Less Tournament MB, Diawa Tatula and these reels are cheaper. I'm not a Shimano Hater just can't see and understand why the company is put on a pedestal.

iabass8 reply :

My 15 Abu Garcia black maxs will outlast all of your shimano and daiwa garbage! Mark my words!

NJSalt reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 7:55 AM, shaggydog said:
Sometimes I fish with a shimano fanboy and when I do I use my abu's. Its fun catching more fish with my inferior equipment while he can stand there holding his stick loving shimano.

I guess your buddy's name isn't Aaron Martens :rolleyes:

Raul reply :

Josh Smith reply :

In part, I do agree.

I'd like my reels to come loaded with bushings. Because I tear them down and rebuild them when new anyway, it would be simple to replace the bushings with bearings where I want them.

For example, a 5500c3 Ambassadeur runs about half of a 5600c5. Yet, it's a simple matter to replace the bushings in the c3 when supertuning the rest of it.

I'd actually prefer it if I could buy an all-bushing reel and upgrade it with bearings as I see fit. This would lower initial and overall cost as I'd not be paying for Abec-3 bearings in a place I'd just swap in Abec-5 or -7 anyway.

Guess I'm not the typical type they cater to, though.

Regards,

Josh

On 12/16/2015 at 1:13 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:

Yes, I have an idea because I have done it for years and years, decades even. I use to actually save the bushings for what I have no idea now. I tossed all of them into the recycle bin long ago.

Every time I come across a bushing in any reel of mine, out it comes and ball bearings are installed. No if's, and's, or but's. I want ball bearings, not bushings.

I guess the term "better reel" has various interpretations! But I hear ya!

My days of having plastic or brass bushings on a baitcast reel spool went out with the 1980's! Never again! But if some people like bushings over bearings it is AOK with me... but I'm not turning back now.

You said we pay more for more bearings in more expensive reels which to some degree might be true, but from my perspective I pay more for a shimano reel with fewer ball bearings and less for other brand reels with MORE ball bearings!

Most of my baitcast reels have 10 ball bearings. I like it. I want it. And I will not let shimano decided this for me. Not any more. Today shimano reels are about 50% of what I use down from nearly 100% years ago. The reason is simple, other companies are giving me what I want for less while shimano wants to tell me what I need which is less for more $$$$. Today shimano no longer owns my brand loyalty because of what they do.

bootytrain reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 12:55 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:

Really simple math honestly. You can still be the best selling while also losing market shares, and mark my words it is happening simply going by the numbers.

Back in the 1980's when shimano was establishing their reputation just look at the field of other brands that were available back then- it was far fewer than today. Shimano stood out, but those days are over. Today we have many more brands who have come into the market like Okuma for one who has increased their market share recently by 15% each year for 5 years and growing.

Okuma can only increase their market share by taking away from others. And they are not alone. Other reel manufacturers have stepped up to the plate and now offer reels of comparable quality and features and people like myself are turning away from shimano for this reason. More choices and better prices. Simple math dictates shimano can not always carve out increasing market shares forever. From what all I can tell they peaked long ago and are now on the decline in market share percentage as many other companies are increasing their market shares. It goes up and down all the time. It is never the same or carved in stone.

I based my opinion on my years of experience repairing reels for one where we use to see higher numbers of shimano reels, but today we see just about everything and decreasing numbers of shimano reels- and opinions of them. People are buying other brands. No doubt about it. That alone tells me shimano is losing market shares. They have to be. Simple math dictates it.

And if you keep up with the industry, you can review the shimano financial statements to see where their losses are and how shimano tries to minimize those numbers for their share holders by keeping track of their consolidated financial statements reports issued annually, (here is 2013 as an example) and also by keeping track of the World Fishing Equipment Market Report . They often tell a differing story since shimano pads the numbers for their shareholders. The shimano reports have an agenda while the equipment market reports are not trying to show shareholders favorable numbers. These are just a couple of sources I read up on from time to time to see where the markets are and heading to.

From the shimano financial statement report:

"Sales from other segments decreased 10.3% from the previous year to 376 million yen and an operating loss of 135 million yen was recorded, following an operating loss of 326 million yen the previous year."

Heck shimano is even losing considerable market shares in the bicycle market too: SBS to stop selling Shimano components . Take a read on their reasoning why: ""We have an enormous amount of respect for the quality and engineering of Shimano components, and we have appreciated the opportunity to be a distributor of Shimano in the U.S. market,” said Chris Speyer, managing director of ANA. “Shimano has worked hard to establish a direct-to-dealer distribution network. We appreciate the opportunity that Shimano provided in allowing SBS to be one of the select group of distributors of their products, but in the long term it is clear to us that most dealers will focus their purchasing directly with Shimano. Therefore, based on our focused approach around P&A, we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

Translation of this line: "we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

Profit margin for shimano dropped meaning shimano's wholesale prices were too high for this distributor to make money distributing shimano so bye shimano! They will focus on cheaper brands that will sustain them in the future with more profit. Sell your own overpriced products shimano!

Bottom line is I added it all up and said "shimano is losing market shares" as my opinion of the overall market situation as I see it and I should have clarified that point, but then again, I also considered it a general given.

Do any of you follow the work of Alan Tani? He is a notable reel tech who is good at what he does and I have followed him for years. He has his own website and forum dedicated to reel repairs and modifications and on his site you will find some interesting discussion about shimano and other brands...

"PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE" in SHIMANO Reels ???

« on: February 09, 2015, 10:51:36 AM »

I was surfing the web and came across a couple of interesting items about SHIMANO reels, up to and including the STELLA, outlining problems that seem to transcend all levels of SHIMANO reels. forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?105525-Why-I-Will-Never-Buy-Another-Shimano-Product-Short-Life-Span

forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?104471-Stella-6000FA-Repair

I wanted to share this for those considering purchasing SHIMANO reels in the future, as well as current owners . . . Something to take into consideration!

Tight Lines !

---------------------------------

Ahh "Planned Obsolescence"... Blame Osram, Phillips and other Light Bulb companies for this term and this act.I knew years ago when Shimano Australia was headed by the late Mr John Dunphy (RIP), that Shimano prided themselves on having spare parts for 10 years minimum. Daiwa was a issue a couple of years ago where I had a 2005 Daiwa Laguna 2000 spin reel and it needed a new gear set both pinion and drive gear, a couple of eMails thrown around internally at Daiwa and a reply to me saw a new reel land on my doorstep 2 days later (no questions asked).They, being Daiwa reproduce parts however could take 18 months or more for them to redo parts runs (limited quantities)...Shimano, well "who knows"... Parts are expensive enough for what they are - I guess they have to keep making money somehow???I guess its just down to how much does a reel cost to replace these days. Something I constantly tell my people that I service for, a reel worth $130 AUD is only worth servicing twice in its lifetime over maybe 3 years or so depending on use and dunking in water. And just looking after it between service intervals with oiling critical areas.

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We are moving to a throw away society more and more. I have found this with lower end reels from all manufacturers not having available parts less than 12 months after being superseded by a new model. And i believe this will start happening with higher end reels sooner rather than later. It is called "Profit Margin".

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Andrew, Dutchy, and others are right --

Most folks like us would like to be loyal to a manufacturer, and also for that producer of our reels to be loyal to us -- in turn.However, this Pollyanna approach on our part is not realistic in today's global economy.The Internet we all love has changed that -- now we can sit in our pajamas -- and order anything we need -- and it will be delivered to our doorstep between 2 and 6 days.As we have adjusted to this new retail consumer market -- the companies that intend to stay in business, have also changed their old views and methods of interacting with their customers (or they are no longer in business).They feel they have needed to throw out the ideas such as Loyalty, Support, Longevity of products, Quality, and even Employee Appreciation.Penn, Daiwa, Shimano, and Okuma -- all have similar stories, nowadays.History is an interesting teacher --Penn pioneered a new, less expensive tackle market that persevered for many decades. Penn's success forced other manufacturers to close down shop -- including Ocean City.Daiwa flooded the market with literally thousands of various reel models and variations -- and widely different qualities and price ranges.Shimano saw the success of Penn and Daiwa -- and decided to build both cheap quality and very high quality reels. They based part of their business model on really taking good care of the consumer, dealer, and repair shop. In a majority of cases -- when a part was no longer available, a consumer was unhappy, a repair guy complained about certain issues with a reel -- Shimano would just either take care of the issue at no charge, or give the shop or consumer a newer, more advanced reel out of the box. No questions asked. Great advertisement -- and this extra effort insured brand loyalty for years to come.Now comes Okuma on the scene. They look at Penn, Daiwa, and Shimano -- see what has worked, and what has failed -- and decided to concentrate on building both average and very high quality reels. Give clients a little extra, increase quality yearly, and earn their place at the table.But as a consumer, whether we pay $1,300 for a Stella, $120 for a Lethal 100, $70 for a Jigmaster, or $24.99 for a low end Daiwa -- we need to realize that these companies are not going to keep new parts in stock forever. We will be fortunate to have parts support for 2 or 3 years -- that is the reality as we are brutally honest with ourselves.When we can buy a printer for less than the replacement ink cartridge, or get a new expensive cell phone new every two years -- how can we expect anything different from the reel manufacturers -- who are using the same business model as every 21st Century company?Planned obselescence -- it will be interesting to watch.

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Alan Tani said: i had a conversation with the okuma guys a couple of years ago. their market share had increased 15% a year for 5 years in a row. all by listening to their customers.

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Good for Okuma. I'm glad for them.

Penn has really created a customer loyalty marketing plan from the beginning as I see it. We all have started out with their fairly inexpensive Squidders, Jigmasters, Senators,...on the conventional side, and Penn's silver series spinners. All very reliable and inexpensive to maintain. Then we moved up to the International Series and the SS series reels based on our loyalty and our confident reliability from Penn.Daiwa too had their many planned obsolescence if you look at their line-up but there were some true reels that gained Daiwa's loyalty and trust. Daiwa's Sealine series from the 900H, 600H,...down to the 27H aluminum framed and side plate reels. I have not see one of those gears shred yet. They are real beefy, that's for sure. And for their Spinners, the Black Gold line of reels. I still have and use mine from probably 30 years ago. Strong solid spinner reel that would honestly compete with Penn's SS series growing up in Hawaii.I think Planned Obsolescence was really created by USA's automobile industry. At one time, cars were though to be used for 5 years then we would turn in the old car and buy a new one. Then parts would be available for another 10 years just in case someone kept their car a little longer. Prior to that, it was common for us Americans to drive a car for 10 years or longer. They were easy to fix and parts were readily available even though the car was 20+ years old. The Japanese automotive industry took what us Americans used to do and created a line of cars that lasted easily 300k miles before a rebuild was even considered. They have created customer loyalty based on this. Today, car companies cannot just survive on this customer loyalty, so cars too have gone the way of planned obsolescence....BTW, for Stellas, I have found that if you send Shimano a Stella reel, they will likely charge you the service fee, but parts are usually free. My friends in Hawaii fish their Stellas very hard for GT. They have stripped gears almost every year, and for the past 3 years, they have sent their reels in to Shimano and have been getting replacement gears for free. Granted, if they had to pay $50 or more for a gear set every year, they would not continue to buy Stellas to complete their fishing reel line up...from 10# to 80# braid. Bling bling...I feel poor just thinking about it.....

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If you listen to general discussion like the above found on Alan Tani's forum, it is clear shimano is throwing their reputation down the drain with overpriced everything! This is why they are losing market shares and why other companies are increasing theirs!

I think it is a safe bet to say "my opinion" is more grounded in truth and reality than just a loose opinion of mine thrown around carelessly.

***I am having to remove links to post this info here...

Wow you sure did copy a paste a novel to prove a very vague point with very limited information in alot of key areas such as the recession, dollar to yen ratio, and other factors. I can believe that people are tempted away to other brands like lews or abu, etc.. because their competing offerings will have more bearings and be lighter (which is a marketing strategy) for the same price range, but I've seen that for every angler that switches, just as many come to shimano. It's not an opinion, it's something that bassmaster magazine printed. Fyi Shakespeare was the best selling rod brand.. guess that makes them better than g loomis lol.

Josh Smith reply :

Round Black Max (Ambassadeur-type) or the cheap Chinese Black Max II?

Josh

On 12/16/2015 at 1:20 AM, iabass8 said:
My 15 Abu Garcia black maxs will outlast all of your shimano and daiwa garbage! Mark my words!

J Francho reply :

I have many different brands of reels. I'd probably call myself a Daiwa fan, though I like my Shimano too. The Daiwa and Shimano reels I use are mostly the OLDEST reels in my lot. That should speak volumes.

QUAKEnSHAKE reply :

What gets me is this was suppose to be fanboys for Shimano commenting. The TRUE FANBOYS shine through with their raging jealousy of yet once again Shimano getting all the attention. It eats at their craw that Shimano is always the brand other brands are compared to and Shimano most times is the brand that shines on top. Any commenters that posted thats not a Shimano fanboy by default is off-topic and shouldnt have replied. But see, as a TRUE FANBOY would do, they had to try to take down the one on TOP, to no avail.

iabass8 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 2:39 AM, Josh Smith said:

Round Black Max (Ambassadeur-type) or the cheap Chinese Black Max II?

Josh

My 17 chinese made black max reels will outlast Anything with a shimano no label. You heard it first right here!

Cgrinder reply :

God I hate winter.

iabass8 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 3:22 AM, Cgrinder said:
God I hate winter.

MORE LIKE shimaNOTHANKYOUWONTBUYTHATCRAP

buzzed bait reply :

same argument, different forum.......

coke/pepsi

ford/chevy

samsung/apple

DD/starbucks

fender/gibson

playstation/xbox

canon/nikon

and on and on and on and on........

and technically it's still fall, not even winter yet, plus it's unseasonably warm out!!! save these threads for late January!

*Hootie reply :

Topics like this make thankful for Facebook.

Hootie

Alonerankin2 reply :

To the Shimano naysayers...

The Posse is coming for you.

k3bass reply :

Here's another example of shimano using bushings.

The symetre fj had an aluminum frame and bearings on both sides of the drive gear. The new symetre fl has a graphite frame and a bearing on one side of the drive gear and a bushing on the other. Shimano continues to downgrade their reels but keeps increasing the price. The funny part is if you look at the price of the replacement bushing from Shimano for the symetre fl it's 2 dollars more than the bearing on the other side! So why even use it????

Ozark_Basser reply :

Shimano makes reliable, quality reels that bomb lures.

Given that. As far as high end goes, I'm a daiwa fanboy. They seem to offer a much more connected feel along with similar characteristics that shimano offers in their high end offerings.

Alonerankin2 reply :

You guys! Ok, I get it. You all don't like Shimano Corp....that's cool, but save your breath, cause all company's are in business to make money.

The End.

shaggydog reply :

On 12/15/2015 at 1:08 PM, JGBassinAL said:
The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

If your not catching any fish I would switch lakes. I catch just as many fish with my shimano reels as l do with lews/abu/pflueger. How come you want to switch brands?

iabass8 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 1:20 AM, iabass8 said:
My 15 Abu Garcia black maxs will outlast all of your shimano and daiwa garbage! Mark my words!

you tell em!

Jrob78 reply :

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't.

iabass8 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 7:35 AM, Jrob78 said:
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't.

Did you just catch me trolling?

gulfcaptain reply :

Wow!! I just PM'd the op when he asked about another reel, boy did this topic hit a nerve for some and get hijacked into a whole different discussion. But lots of interesting reading and info.........carry on.

Jrob78 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 7:51 AM, iabass8 said:
Did you just catch me trolling?

I did, I don't know why you can't ever take these important threads seriously.

iabass8 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 7:53 AM, Jrob78 said:
I did, I don't know why you can't ever take these important threads seriously.

Scary part...I think that FloridaFishin fella thought I was serious. He invited me to work out and he would buy nachos. At what point is free..."free"?

Jrob78 reply :

Sounds like you guys are going to have a lot of fun.

desmobob reply :

OK Shimano fans... give me some advice.

I'd love to have an opinion to add to this thread, but I don't own any Shimano bait casting reels. For bait casters, I have four Lew's Tournament Pros, a Daiwa PX Type R, a Daiwa Alphas SV105, two Daiwa Tatulas, and two Abu Orra Winches.

Just from the fear I'm missing out on the Shimano love, what Shimano bait caster should I try as my next reel purchase that will provide me with the authentic Shimano experience? (It has to be left-hand retrieve and <$200; new or used.)

[i do own two Symetre and two Sedona Shimano spinning reels. One of the Symetre reels is an old "Aero-Symetre" model and I really like it. The newer one from this spring has already had a binding issue. The two Sedonas are OK, but feeling a little sloppy already after light use.]

Tight lines,

Bob

shaggydog reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 9:14 AM, desmobob said:

OK Shimano fans... give me some advice.

I'd love to have an opinion to add to this thread, but I don't own any Shimano bait casting reels. For bait casters, I have four Lew's Tournament Pros, a Daiwa PX Type R, a Daiwa Alphas SV105, two Daiwa Tatulas, and two Abu Orra Winches.

Just from the fear I'm missing out on the Shimano love, what Shimano bait caster should I try as my next reel purchase that will provide me with the authentic Shimano experience? (It has to be left-hand retrieve and <$200; new or used.)

[i do own two Symetre and two Sedona Shimano spinning reels. One of the Symetre reels is an old "Aero-Symetre" model and I really like it. The newer one from this spring has already had a binding issue. The two Sedonas are OK, but feeling a little sloppy already after light use.]

Tight lines,

Bob

Get a core51mg7. I have three. Its a pretty d**n nice reel.

roadwarrior reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 9:26 AM, shaggydog said:
Get a core51mg7. I have three. Its a pretty d**n nice reel.

JGBassinAL reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 6:44 AM, shaggydog said:
If your not catching any fish I would switch lakes. I catch just as many fish with my shimano reels as l do with lews/abu/pflueger. How come you want to switch brands?

I was being facetious...

desmobob reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 9:26 AM, shaggydog said:
Get a core51mg7. I have three. Its a pretty d**n nice reel.

On 12/16/2015 at 9:31 AM, roadwarrior said:

I guess I'd have to look for a used one. And you guys know that if I DID get that reel, it would lead to a direct comparison to my Daiwa PX Type R; undisputed king of the finesse reels?

Tight lines,

Bob

shaggydog reply :

I can buy a new one for $270. Price drop probably due to no more production. I put the septon II grips on mine to match the chronarch. I'm not saying its $70 better than a chronarch, but if you were to own only one reel from shimano, for me that would be the one.

Kevinator1 reply :

Lew's is catching up with everyone....its only a matter of time.....the reason....great value and multiple selections to choose from....My local tackle shop owner said, at least in my area, Lew's has been outselling Shimano 3 to 1 for the last 3 years. I'm one of those people who has started moving that way....I've got 6 Lew's, 4 Shimanos and 4 Abu Garcia's....(Baitcasting) And I haven't had any issues with my Lew's at this point.....not many problems with the others either. Just a thought.

IAY reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 10:17 AM, desmobob said:

I guess I'd have to look for a used one. And you guys know that if I DID get that reel, it would lead to a direct comparison to my Daiwa PX Type R; undisputed king of the finesse reels?

Tight lines,

Bob

PX Type R is definitely not the undisputed king of finesse reels...

Edit* I misread. You need to get a shallow spool for the Core, then you can try out a reel finesse reel d: . There are also really nice spools for Pixy, but they are harder to come by.

k3bass reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 9:14 AM, desmobob said:
The newer one from this spring has already had a binding issue. The two Sedonas are OK, but feeling a little sloppy already after light use.

I'd say you've already had the authentic shimano experience. Lol

QUAKEnSHAKE reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 10:17 AM, desmobob said:

I guess I'd have to look for a used one. And you guys know that if I DID get that reel, it would lead to a direct comparison to my Daiwa PX Type R; undisputed king of the finesse reels?

Tight lines,

Bob

Maybe the BFS aldebaran XG would be a better match. Or core with upgraded spool cause the px-r was like a $500 reel.

quote from another site "the Core with the Avail super shallow ALD9029 I think with the mag brake.

With that setup I found it superior in distance and control over the CQ50s and even the pixy R.

http://japantackle.com/casting-reels/shimano/low-profile-casting-reels/shimano-aldebaran-bfs2015ltd.html

kickerfish1 reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 9:14 AM, desmobob said:

OK Shimano fans... give me some advice.

I'd love to have an opinion to add to this thread, but I don't own any Shimano bait casting reels. For bait casters, I have four Lew's Tournament Pros, a Daiwa PX Type R, a Daiwa Alphas SV105, two Daiwa Tatulas, and two Abu Orra Winches.

Just from the fear I'm missing out on the Shimano love, what Shimano bait caster should I try as my next reel purchase that will provide me with the authentic Shimano experience? (It has to be left-hand retrieve and <$200; new or used.)

[i do own two Symetre and two Sedona Shimano spinning reels. One of the Symetre reels is an old "Aero-Symetre" model and I really like it. The newer one from this spring has already had a binding issue. The two Sedonas are OK, but feeling a little sloppy already after light use.]

Tight lines,

Bob

If you aren't a reel weight weenie and don't mind ordering from Japan get the Exscence DC for $250 new shipped from Digitaka. Yes, it is $50 over budget but this reel will wow you from a performance standpoint. No other reel you have owned can do what the DC system can. A clicking drag as fish pulls line, a sweet sounding DC wine, all external adjustments, modes for every line type, and a mode that can fast without using any thumb, and reel capable of casting far with plenty of line capacity. You won't find another $250 reel that will do this. I just recently ordered a 2nd as I was so impressed with the first. Good from anything 1/4 and up!

IAY reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 11:46 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

Maybe the BFS aldebaran XG would be a better match. Or core with upgraded spool cause the px-r was like a $500 reel.

quote from another site "the Core with the Avail super shallow ALD9029 I think with the mag brake.

With that setup I found it superior in distance and control over the CQ50s and even the pixy R.

http://japantackle.com/casting-reels/shimano/low-profile-casting-reels/shimano-aldebaran-bfs2015ltd.html

The thing about the Px type r is that the spool weighs good 13 grams without the bearing while Aldebaran BFS is in the 9 gram range. You really need to cut the fat when you are casting finesse lures.

bootytrain reply :

On 12/16/2015 at 10:17 AM, desmobob said:

I guess I'd have to look for a used one. And you guys know that if I DID get that reel, it would lead to a direct comparison to my Daiwa PX Type R; undisputed king of the finesse reels?

Tight lines,

Bob

Sorry man... the king was dethroned and banished a few years ago lol... it was surpassed by several reels for finesse capabilities like the aldebaran bfs xg, xg limited, Revo ltz/ltx, and Daiwa's own T3 Air and SS Air.

IowaHusker28 reply :

Now I am obviously not going to argue anything here because you have done your research and have personal experience and I am not going to argue opinion and/or stated facts for that matter. I will also say comparing bearings in the terms of number does not exactly correlate to performance, just like you stated with cars, the new Ford GT uses a V6, and pumps out 50 more horsepower than its V8 predecessor. More doesn't always mean better performance; and yes I realize you stated an obvious bearing/bushing situation but that would cause major failure in a car.

More/less that is why there are multiple very successful brands, people can buy what they want in a reel. I am more less stating that some companies sell you on the fact you need more, or that a reel with 7 is better than one with 5, because I can name multiple reels that I wouldn't even blink before taking the Curado.

Moral of the story. To each his own.

On 12/15/2015 at 9:21 PM, FloridaFishinFool said:

I have also heard shimano reps say something similar, but I will have disagree with this statement. For example, take the shimano stradic FJ series reel. It has 5 bearings, but in the new stradic reels you now find more bearings. Why the change?

In my old stradic spinning reel I found a peculiar situation when I opened it up for the first time. On the main drive gear I found only one ball bearing on one side and white plastic cheap bushing on the other side. Odd how that cheap plastic bushing was exactly the same size as the ball bearing on the other side. Coincidence? Hardly. Engineers designed the reel to accommodate ball bearings on BOTH sides of the main drive gear but for some reason it was left out on one side.

Can you imagine building cars this way? On an axle to have a ball bearing on one side only and bushings on the other side? It does not make sense, but it does make cents.

The whole reason to use a ball bearing is to improve ease of operation and smoothness, but if you use a plastic bushing on the other side it tends to add friction which really defeats the purpose of the ball bearing in the first place. Needless to say it, but that cheap plastic bushing was thrown in the trash can and a ball bearing was installed so that now both sides of the main drive gear had ball bearings exactly as the original engineers designed it.

IowaHusker28 reply :

Heck if Shimano is supposedly losing market shares and they have to drop their prices to compete with other brands, although it seems Abu just keeps putting the same reel on the market with a cooler name and selling them. It just means more Shimanos for me

GetJigginWithIt reply :

I need my dumbrella, a lot of stupid out there today.

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