Reel Construction, Graphite Vs Die Cast Aluminum Vs Extruded/machined 2024
retiredbosn reply :
Had the oil filter cap on my car break today, made out of die cast aluminum, got me to thinking about reel frames. Now we all know that the best reels have aluminum frames, but not all aluminum is the same. For those starting out we routinely get questions about what to buy, naturally the advice goes make sure it has an aluminum frame, quality bearings (its not the bearing count but the quality that counts), brass gearing, etc. I'm starting to question a portion of that formula, we should; I believe encourage, newbies to buy either a machined or extruded aluminum frame. I know it is something that I make sure of, if the reel has a die cast aluminum frame I pass. Die cast aluminum is not as strong as machined or extruded aluminum, in fact it could be weaker than graphite. Many of us may remember metal that was called "pot metal", it was weak and soft, pot metal is die casted. The die cast process can not guarantee uniform density of the metal throughout the frame, and nearly all has weak spots where the metal didn't cool correctly or has impurities, graphite on the other hand is at least uniform in density and strength. If I had to pick between the two graphite or die cast I think I would go with the graphite if it is from a reputable manufacturer. For example most manufacturers bottom line reels are graphite framed, the next step is die cast, the die cast frame reels cost more, but because of the manufacturing process they may not be as strong as the graphite, the next step is either machined or extruded aluminum. If your budget allows always pick an aluminum frame that is either machined or extruded, doing less and you are short changing yourself in quality and durability.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
I think you make a valid point that not all aluminum is created equal. I'd defer to an engineer that could explain the precise differences, but my opinon as it stands is Magnesium<Machined aluminum<graphite<cast aluminum as far as strength to weight is concerned.
J Francho reply :
Machined aluminum for a n00b? You realize you are telling them to get a $600 reel. You're making WAYYYY more out of this than should be. Any defects are gonna show up quickly, and covered under warranty. I mean, how many cracked frames do you hear about? Personally, I clean over three hundred reels a season, and never heard of it.
Delaware Valley Tackle reply :
J, you make a good point as usual. I glossed over the "starting out" part of the OP. Over thinking and "analysis paralysis" all too common in this sport.
retiredbosn reply :
not a $600 reel, the Pro Qualifier is advertised as a machined frame. Yeah, I think you are DVC we tend to overanalysis alot in this sport, sometimes I wonder if I was having more fun with my old glass rods with spinning reels and was completely oblivious to the new advances.
webertime reply :
Technically "Machining" could could mean that the screw holes were machined out of the casting. Ahhhh technicalities... The STRONGEST Aluminum based frame would be a cold forged 7000 series billet that is then machined down to the frame. THAT is insanely expensive.
Any Aluminum framed reel that is properly designed should be strong enough to last a lifetime regardless of cast vs forged vs machined.
BigMoneyGrip reply :
Yeah, the "machined aluminum" frames that BPS talks about are machined cast aluminum. They aren't cut out of a billet.
I've never had any trouble out of my cast frames. I treat all of my stuff with respect and don't forsee anything going south.
On the other hand, I could see where corosion could be an issue with the aluminum and not with the plastic, errr, I mean graphite.
21farms reply :
yes, BPS is a little tricky in their language. i think their description of the frame for their new extreme reels is the most accurate: "die-cast, then CNC machined." fully machining a one-piece fishing reel frame would be super expensive and time-consuming. as for extruding, i don't think it's possible to extrude aluminum into the shape of a fishing reel frame.
retiredbosn reply :
thanks for the maching comments, I hadn't thought about that yet, Lew's advertises their Speed Sppol as die cast and the next one up from that as machined. It's like the graphite content in rods, how much material does it take to earn the rating. Good info
OkobojiEagle reply :
If you're in danger of breaking a spinning reel frame (of any commonly used material), loosen your drag. The rigidity of aluminum is important but not to the extent of it reaching a breaking strain.
oe
smalljaw67 reply :
On 3/17/2012 at 11:39 PM, OkobojiEagle said:If you're in danger of breaking a spinning reel frame (of any commonly used material), loosen your drag. The rigidity of aluminum is important but not to the extent of it reaching a breaking strain.
oe
You are right! But it also why I stay away from graphite , you aren't going to break the frame but it is possible to flex the frame enough that the gears don't mesh as well as before the flex and I've seen this happen more than once. Most quality reels are made from aluminum or magnesium, the only reels I've seen machined from billet are round saltwater reels that cost an large sum of money.
South FLA reply :
I thought only Saltwater reels were the only truly fully machined reels ?
http://www.avetreels.com/about.html
retiredbosn reply :
I don't know what extrusion process is used by Abu Garcia, but I have three EXT Pro series that the frames are extruded. I know you can do cold, warm and hot extrusion, and it is supposed to result in a really strong metal. The frames on these reels are extremely thin, but I have caught stripers and LM bass over 8lbs without problem. Don't know if the PQ's are machined die cast or what, but all frames must have screw holes machined it seems that there would be a difference in the reels that are advertised die cast, die cast machined, and just machined. This has been an interesting thread and I appreciate the information that has been shared. BTW do you think that any manufacturer will ever be able to develop a carbon fiber reel. I know boeing is using carbon fiber in the wings of their new jumbo jet, and that carbon fiber can be incredibly stong, but other than maybe side plates and obviously handles if carbon fiber will ever be on reels
guitarkid reply :
@ retiredbosn, do you mean extruded or forged?
@21 farms, you are absolutely right, there is no way to extrude a frame for a fishing reel.
-gk
Hooligan reply :
On 3/18/2012 at 9:34 PM, South FLA said:I thought only Saltwater reels were the only truly fully machined reels ?
http://www.avetreels.com/about.html
Nah. There are machined billet frame reels in the freshwater market, too. I know that Shimano has a few, Dawia has some. I believe all of the Cold Forged Metal series from Shimano are billet reels.
Catt reply :
Y'all are totally misunderstanding the process of "Die Casting"
Die casting - A method of forming metal parts by forcing metal in its plastic (soft) state into a high strength die by using a large amount of force. Die cast parts have more strength than parts that cast by pouring molten metal into a mold (pot metal).
Extrusion - A form of structural material that is made by passing metal that is heated to its plastic state through specially shaped dies. The extruding process is used to make long, continuous lengths of structural shapes as angles, channels, and rods.
retiredbosn reply :
On 3/19/2012 at 1:42 PM, guitarkid said:@ retiredbosn, do you mean extruded or forged?
-gk
No I mean extruded, that is how it is described in the literature advertising the reel, here is a short clip by Hank Parker describing the reel, he describes the frame as ".... x frame extruded aluminum ....."
retiredbosn reply :
Catt,
Your definitions make sense, I can see how when adding metal to the casting under pressure would create a strong product. It would remove any voids in between the metal and the casting, Thanks. I don't know if anyone else is learning anything, but I am and I appreciate all of the replies.
Catt reply :
Y'all still get it! It is Garcia's way of entering Shimano's market of Calcutta. The biggest knock against Garcia's round reels (5500) is they are not a one piece frame. Garcia's only attempt was the Record which was no match for the Calcutta. So Garcia comes out with the EXT and tries to lead us into believing extrusions are stronger than the Calcutta which by the way is cold forged.
Y'all take this from someone with 15 years experience in Aerospace industry as a Manufacturing Engineer whose job it was to reverse engineer parts that could not be bought on the open market.
It's a sales gimmick!
piscicidal reply :
In my 17 years as a mechanical engineer, I've designed products made from die cast and extruded aluminum as well as die cast magnesium. I'm not sure what the material was on your oil filter base, retiredbosn, but a quality castable Aluminum alloy (B390, A380, AC8A, etc...) should not have voiding issues that would preclude it from being used in a fishing reel frame. As JFrancho mentioned....has any one ever seen an aluminum frame actually break under normal conditions?
Personally, I would feel more confident buying a die cast aluminum frame than I would an extruded/machined aluminum frame. Extruded aluminum is necessarily ductile and would seem to be a poor material choice for a fishing reel for other than marketing purposes. it would have to have thicker wall sections (be heavier). I have quite a bit of experience with extruded aluminum...one of my 11 US patents is for an extruded aluminum cell phone.
Ima Bass Ninja reply :
This is a very interesting topic for discussion. Although a very confusing one for me to understand. In order for me to get a clearer understanding of what everyone is talking about let me first give the definitions of the manufacturing process as i know them.
Extruded= passing a material through a machine in order to achieve a desired shape. Such as the method used for making monofilament and flourocarbon lines.
Forged= heating a metal and the hammering it into desired shape. Such as blacksmithing.
Cast= heating a material to liquid form and then injecting it into a mold to achieve desired shape. Such as the investment cast method of making golf club heads.
Machined= taking a solid piece of material and cutting it into desired shape.
Now my questions,
Are my definitions of the above processes inaccurate as it relates to the descriptions in the thread?
Which process is the graphite framed reels made with?
Also in rearguards to the PQ line of reels the BPS catalog states that the PQ is "machined aluminum" and the Extreme series is "die cast and then machined to specifications"
It would appear by their description that the PQ is made of 1 solid piece of machined aluminum. I was just wondering if this was a marketing ploy and the process is actually the same as the extreme series. I have sent an e-mail to bps with this question so hopefully they will reply soon and i can give their answer on here.
Catt reply :
Y'all still missing it, the strength in not in the process used to shape the part but rather in the material used.
Die casting, cold forging, extruding are processes used to shape aluminum into various "extruded" shapes like L-angles, H or U channels, tubes, squire tubes and so on.
Die casting uses A360, A380, A383, A384, 518, A413, or B390
Cold Forging can use stronger 2024-T36, 2024-T4, 5052-H38, 6061-T6, or 7075-T6
The strength is in the process used shape it but in the material used. All process still require additional machining to finish the part. However Cold Forging will provide the forging of a more detailed part requiring less machining but is more expensive.
piscicidal reply :
On 3/19/2012 at 11:04 PM, Catt said:Y'all still missing it, the strength in not in the process used to shape the part but rather in the material used.
You points are well taken, Catt. However, as you know, you can't completely segregate the process from the material. As you noted, there are different grades of material for the different processes used to create the part. Further, the process does have some bearing in the final physical characteristics of the part. In forging, for example, there is a work hardening which occurs which is beneficial. Die casting results in a material which has voids...there are ways to mitigate the extent of the voids, but you do have to account for it in the design. For thin wall extrusions...the base material is fairly ductile as it must be for fabricating. We post treat later with a tempering process which makes the material slightly more rigid. We actually worked with Alcoa to create a new formulation of 350MPa extrudable Aluminum when developing that extruded cell phone.
In regards to the OP, the use of any extruded grade aluminum seems to be a poor choice for a fishing reel frame, where a slight misalignment would impact the performance of the reel. If there were instances of cast aluminum frames breaking, one might be able to justify the increased cost/weight of going to the extruded/machined formulations. I just don't see it in the real world, though...
Catt reply :
Regardless of which process is used "work hardening" is required after final machineing as a means of stress relieve.
Die casting can only have voids if the casting is done with metals in a molten state, which is not "Die Casting" but simply "Casting". Die Casting is forcing a metal in a softened (plastic) state into or through a "die". This where the confusion lies!
retiredbosn reply :
An unrelated question but you guys are up to the task I believe. A boat manufacturer who makes jet bass boats, a small and not widely well known. Anyway he advertises his hull material which is aluminum as 6061 T651 pre-stressed aluminum. I'm assuming the number identify the alloy, but what is pre-stressed?
piscicidal reply :
Every die cast part I have ever designed...Magnesium, Aluminum or Zinc Alloy, stress relieving has been achieved by heat treatment (annealing) and not through mechanical means. I'm not even sure you can work harden some of these die cast formulations. If your experience is different, Catt, I would love to discuss it via IM.
Regarding "die casting" versus "casting"...the method I am discussing is "die casting" and this process does result in voids (we specify as "porosity defects"). The difference between this and the "casting" process is in the magnitude... For die cast parts, we have a pretty rigid methodology to ensure the integrity of the part and ensure we don't ship parts with excessive voids. Standard procedure is to check 6 sets of 5 sequential castings at intervals of 1/2 to 2 hours. Parts are checked for defects by either sectioning or xray.
Ima Bass Ninja reply :
FYI on the pq reel
Than you for contacting Bass Pro Shops. We we state machined aluminum on this reel, we mean that it is made from a solid block of aluminum. I do hope this information is helpful.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Best Regards,
Vicki
Bass Pro Shops
Customer Service
1-877-732-2723
BigMoneyGrip reply :
On 3/20/2012 at 5:26 AM, Ima Bass Ninja said:FYI on the pq reel
Than you for contacting Bass Pro Shops. We we state machined aluminum on this reel, we mean that it is made from a solid block of aluminum. I do hope this information is helpful.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Best Regards,
Vicki
Bass Pro Shops
Customer Service
1-877-732-2723
I still find it hard to believe that it is machined out of a billet of aluminum. It sound like the wrong tems are being used. In fact, a billet aluminum frame would have to be the most inefficient way to make a frame for a low pro reel.
Ninja, this isn't dirrected towards you.
Ima Bass Ninja reply :
On 3/20/2012 at 9:05 AM, BigMoneyGrip said:I still find it hard to believe that it is machined out of a billet of aluminum. It sound like the wrong tems are being used. In fact, a billet aluminum frame would have to be the most inefficient way to make a frame for a low pro reel.
Ninja, this isn't dirrected towards you.
No prob man. My question to bass pro was this:
"I have a question regarding the listed manufacturing process of the Pro Qualifier casting reel. It states that it is a "machined aluminum frame". Does this mean that it is machined from a solid block of aluminum or is it die cast and them machined to specifications such as the extreme series of reels?
Thank you"
And I posted their reply.
NorcalBassin reply :
Very interesting fellas... feels like I just sat through a 20 minute lecture learning about the differences.
guitarkid reply :
On 3/19/2012 at 8:16 PM, retiredbosn said:No I mean extruded, that is how it is described in the literature advertising the reel, here is a short clip by Hank Parker describing the reel, he describes the frame as ".... x frame extruded aluminum ....."
#!
pretty cool, I have no idea how they would do that, but still pretty neat.
-gk
Catt reply :
6061-T651
First digit - Alloy type
Second digit - Modification of alloy
Third & fourth digits - Purity of aluminum
T651 - Solution heat-treated followed by artificial waging
Prestressing - The intentional creation of permanent stresses in a structure for the purpose of improving its performance under various service conditions. Example - Aircraft
Catt reply :
Back to the subject at hand I have friends who guide Specs & Redfish with these Abu reels and report zero problems.
I have 2 Shimano Cardiffs which have a one piece Diecast frame and after 10 years in both fresh and salt water zero problems.
piscicidal reply :
On 3/20/2012 at 2:18 PM, guitarkid said:pretty cool, I have no idea how they would do that, but still pretty neat.
-gk
The basic process flow for an extruded aluminum part is: extrude -> slice -> cnc machine -> bead blast -> anneal -> anodize. (actual process flow is ~30 steps and requires multiple CNC banks, but you get the point...) As Catt mentioned before....all aluminum parts (be it casting, die-cast, forging, extrusion, etc..) require CNC machining as one of the finishing steps. In the case of a complex, 3d "extruded" parts such as this reel frame, the actual profile is quite a bit different than the final geometry and the individual parts require ALOT of machining. The extruded cell phone I designed, the initial extruded blank had ~4mm wall sections which were later machined down to 1.2mm wall sections.
The extruded blank has very little resemblance to the final part....the extrusion is just one of the many processes the part goes through and essentially replaces an initial rough machining process. As mentioned before...I think that with a complex parts like this, there is little real world advantage to creating it via an extrusion process. It is much more expensive than die casting and requires thicker wall sections (i.e. more weight). IMO, I think the decision is more marketing driven than anything.
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