Palomar Knot break or Knot slip - Seaguar Blue Line Flouro Leader 2024
txchaser reply :
I hooked up with the Kraken and was totally unprepared. In particular my drag was cranked up, I hadn't checked in three days for nicks, and the last re-tie was at least three fish ago, if not more. I'm 99% sure I didn't cross the line over itself in the hook eye, but I do notice when I tie this knot the loop part that it supposed to cinch on the top of the knot wants to flop around and be everywhere but the top of the knot when I cinch.
My own fault, I had moved from ponds to a lake with some known large fish, in great conditions, and no competition because it was cold-ish and windy, so at least the chance of something big.
30lb braid -> 15lb seaguar blue line leader-> mustad fastech-> z-man chatterbait
Strike (hard), hard hookset, 3 seconds of fight where I'm just trying to overpower it. Then the line goes limp. Sigh.
When I get it back, the end of the line has a 1/2 or so of a C-shape, with a straight part going up out the top of the C. I've broken this line on a snag once before at it seemed clearly at the knot, little bend at the end of the leader.
Did the knot slip? Some weird stress on the line from before make that shape?
Bluebasser86 reply :
Any particular reason for running braid to a leader for a chatterbait? And are you clipping the fastech to the snap on the chatterbait blade?
txchaser reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 1:12 PM, Bluebasser86 said:Any particular reason for running braid to a leader for a chatterbait? And are you clipping the fastech to the snap on the chatterbait blade?
It was already on there from fishing the clear waters before. Fair point, that would have avoided the issue too. Cost me a big one I think. Maybe it was a ticked off catfish.
The Fastech is to keep me from losing my mind swapping baits around; new locations, only two rods.
Catt reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 1:08 PM, txchaser said:when I tie this knot the loop part that it supposed to cinch on the top of the knot wants to flop around and be everywhere but the top of the knot when I cinch
Make dang certain you wet the line generously!
When cinching it down do you pull both ends or just the tag end?
Your description sounds to me like you're over heating the line.
txchaser reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 4:52 PM, Catt said:
Make dang certain you wet the line generously!
When cinching it down do you pull both ends or just the tag end?
Your description sounds to me like you're over heating the line.
I think I'm pulling the tag end, would have to go tie one to see what I'm doing. Definitely wet. Which way is it supposed to be (both or tag) on the palomar?
NHBull reply :
I have had terrible luck with blue label, to the point that seaguar acknowledged the problem and replaced several spools. I am not saying this is your problem, but crazy failures have plagued me with this line
Catt reply :
Brad Reid reply :
Interesting. The weakest part of a line is always the first acute bend in a knot . . . assuming the line isn't otherwise flawed. Lines break at knots because the act of creating it stretches the fibers or material on one side, compresses them on the other.
Flourocarbon failures owing to overheating is not the issue; fluorocarbon is less sensitive to heat than monofilament. It is just harder to form it into a tight knot that causes some failures . . . and people attribute that to line burning.
So, my guess is since you pulled back a "C" shape with some additional straight line beyond the "C" and toward the end, is that it didn't break in the knot . . . but slipped apart.
Palomar knots can slip apart, most knots can. What it lacks in friction, it makes up for by being a doubled line knot, that, and the fact that when you slip that bight over and around the hook or lure, it "anchors" the end of the knot better than knots with just a single terminating tag end clipped off.
It sounds to me like the knot was just old, needed re-tying.
I suppose a good rule is to visually check your line every so often, first, then at least visually inspect the knot, replace it after "X" number of fish are caught and certainly after a big fight with a large one, then always retie junction and terminal knots between fishing trips.
Brad
Catt reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 9:18 PM, Brad Reid said:Flourocarbon failures owing to overheating is not the issue; fluorocarbon is less sensitive to heat than monofilament. It is just harder to form it into a tight knot that causes some failures . . . and people attribute that to line burning.
Interesting since I just watched videos with Denny Brauer, Gary Klein, & KVD in which they all stated it does.
junyer357 reply :
Try a diffrent knot. Im a fan of a polamar on braid amd mono, but for flouro i prefer the "shaw grigsby youtube" knot. Also with flouro, slobber it up good, cinch it down snug, but dont pull the devil out of it, that will weaken it too.
Team9nine reply :
If tied correctly, Palomar knots don't slip. You also don't need to lubricate (though never a bad thing if you do) because there is no friction with one tied properly. It's the only connecting knot I've used in every type of line for over 20 years.
What does happen though is that certain lines don't tie well with certain knots, for whatever reason. This is fairly common with many lines. And there is always the chance you tied a slightly improper knot - it happens. As such, you might test some other knots with your current spool of line to see if they all perform similarly, or retie a few Palomars. That would tell you whether it's the knot or the line.
Catt reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 10:30 PM, Team9nine said:You also don't need to lubricate (though never a bad thing if you do) because there is no friction with one tied properly.
OK that's enough of that!
This is the second time I was typing the exact same thing & your answer pops up!
All 3 Pro stressed repeatedly tying a Palomar correctly is key.
Team9nine reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 10:39 PM, Catt said:
OK that's enough of that!
This is the second time I was typing the exact same thing & your answer pops up!
All 3 Pro stressed repeatedly tying a Palomar correctly is key.
Tying ANY knot correctly is the key. And if you are tying it correctly (Palomar), there is no need to lubricate. I stopped doing it years ago...and don't cross the base lines 
So far I've found two lines that don't like Palomars regardless.
txchaser reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 9:18 PM, Brad Reid said:the fact that when you slip that bight over and around the hook or lure, it "anchors" the end of the knot better than knots with just a single terminating tag end clipped off.
Hmm, that's the part of tying that I was wrestling with anyway, the bight sitting on top of the knot.
On 12/27/2018 at 10:30 PM, Team9nine said:or retie a few Palomars.
Great idea. I'll get some practice and I'll also do a pull test to see how much it can really take, at least on a fresh knot.
I've come to the conclusion that much like a plane crash, a big pile of small avoidable errors piled up. Poorly set drag and heavy stress over multiple fish eventually showed the failure to tie the knot well.
Somewhat related:
1) has anyone done shock testing on knots and line, vs slow pull?
2) is there a definitive well-tested source for knots by line/brand/type/use? Seems important, but I could only find one source that did any meaningful amounts of testing, and that was only five runs per bracket (salt water site).
Thank you all!
Jcj90 reply :
i use this line as leader material inshore fishing and never had any issues with 20 or 25lb. i use a clinch or improved clinch knot
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 12/28/2018 at 12:49 PM, txchaser said:Hmm, that's the part of tying that I was wrestling with anyway, the bight sitting on top of the knot.
Great idea. I'll get some practice and I'll also do a pull test to see how much it can really take, at least on a fresh knot.
I've come to the conclusion that much like a plane crash, a big pile of small avoidable errors piled up. Poorly set drag and heavy stress over multiple fish eventually showed the failure to tie the knot well.
Somewhat related:
1) has anyone done shock testing on knots and line, vs slow pull?
2) is there a definitive well-tested source for knots by line/brand/type/use? Seems important, but I could only find one source that did any meaningful amounts of testing, and that was only five runs per bracket (salt water site).
Thank you all!
2) Definitive-- No
But there is KNOT WARS that tests knots head to head using mono FC and Braid
Example FISHnFOOL knot tested head to head against Miller knot --Grinner Knot-- and Palomar knot
Brad Reid reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 9:45 PM, Catt said:
Interesting since I just watched videos with Denny Brauer, Gary Klein, & KVD in which they all stated it does.
Well, they can certainly "out fish" me any day; doesn't mean, though, they are scientifically correct.
Fluorocarbon has less heat conductivity than monofilament. It does. So, to the extent that burning is an issue, it'd be more so with monofilament.
Other than lubricating the line to assist in getting a knot properly tightened, water (spit, too) has a thermal conductivity 3X greater than that of fluorocarbon . . . so it absorbs and wicks away any heat issues.
When you singe the end of a rope to keep its fibers from unfurling? Many of us lick our index finger and thumb, then tamp the burnt end to cool it off, terminate the heat.
Anyway, no, fluorocarbon is less, not more, sensitive to heat than mono.
Brad
Brad Reid reply :
Gosh, I hope I am not "beating a dead horse" here but I want to explain why tying a knot, any knot, correctly is important.
So, most fishing "knots" rely on friction to hold them together. If the wraps lie perfectly against each other along their wrap lengths, it creates more friction resistance, more drag. If a sloppy knot crosses lines, the only friction occurs at the intersections, not along long circular wraps.
Analogy: If you are trying to start a fire rubbing two sticks together, you rub one perpendicular to the other, you don't rub them against each other long-wise, side by side. Why? Well other than concentrating the heat generated, it is because you can push and pull two crossed sticks rather easily (less friction). If you rub two sticks long-wise, there is too much friction interference, too much contact.
This is exactly what we want in our knots, the most surface area of one piece of line coming into contact with another. Poorly tied knots limit friction to small intersections, criss-crosses. They pull apart much more easily.
Brad
Catt reply :
On 12/28/2018 at 9:42 PM, Brad Reid said:doesn't mean, though, they are scientifically correct.
I quite positive all 3 have done a little scientific research ????
fin reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 1:08 PM, txchaser said:When I get it back, the end of the line has a 1/2 or so of a C-shape, with a straight part going up out the top of the C.
To me, that sounds like a slipped knot, not a break. A break is short, like a 1/8" curl. A slip is longer.
I used to use fluoro for leaders. I went through two rolls of line (that's a lot of leaders) without a problem and then on the third roll I started having problems with knots breaking and slipping. It was all the same brand and type of line. I ended up switching to mono, and that solved 90% of my problems. I suspect that third roll of fluoro was defective or damaged by heat, but I don't know.
I still occasionally have bad knots though, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. It seems to me I'm doing it the same every time, but I must be doing something different. It's a mystery to me. My best advice is to test your knot really good before using it, and don't cut the tag too close, just in case.
WRB reply :
This was probably pointed out in the vedio's the difference between a proper and improperly tied Palomar knot. You put the line through the hook eye and back trough creating a loop. The loop is tied into a simple overhand knot, the next 2 steps are critical; pull the loop end and both the tag end and main line to tighten snug up the overhand knot, do not pull tight, now the most important step put the hook, snap or lure through the loop without rotating the loop. If the loop is rotated it creates a twist that will over heat the crossed over line when the knot is pulled tight as KVD demonstrated.
The curled line end discribed is a classic rotated loop failure flattening the line during the tightening knot step. Always wet your line and look for crossed line when tighteneing any fishing knot.
Tom
WRB reply :
Different topic but related to the OP's opening statements that he didn't retie because he uses a snap or clip to fasten his lures.
All plastics creep with time under pressure. Fluorocarbon line and Nylon or copolymer monofilament lines are all plastic. Knots apply high compression forces creating creep and deforms wreaking the line. Every angler should retie knots every 24 hours if they want stronge knots because every knot weakens. If you notice any nicks or abrasion while fish you should retie before continuing to fish to reduce line failures. Set your drags at 1/3rd the line lb test, leader if using it, and apply addition pressure when needed using your thumb on a bait casting reel, your index finger agianst the spool with spinning reels.
Tom
Big Rick reply :
On 12/27/2018 at 11:36 PM, Team9nine said:and don't cross the base lines
THIS is the biggest reason a Palomar Knot fails. Because the one of the base lines is the MAIN line and if it kinks against the other line it will break under the pressure of a hook set. Also, keeping the over-hand knot at the very top with the loop until time to cinch it down keeps everything in place as well. Practice doing that a few times and it'll become second nature. FWIW, Brandon Palaniuk, 2107 AOY, did a video stating he uses the Palomar Knot exclusively regardless of line type..
txchaser reply :
On 12/28/2018 at 11:45 PM, WRB said:through the loop without rotating the loop. If the loop is rotated it creates a twist that will over heat the crossed over line when the knot is pulled tight as KVD demonstrated.
The curled line end discribed is a classic rotated loop failure flattening the line during the tightening knot step. Always wet your line and look for crossed line when tighteneing any fishing knot.
Tom
Oh this is interesting - the vids were very focused on no cross in the eye of the hook, but I don't recall hearing about this.
NHBull reply :
There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well. I just don't understand why folks continue to use it when there so many options.
Brad Reid reply :
On 12/29/2018 at 8:56 PM, NHBull said:There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well. I just don't understand why folks continue to use it when there so many options.
Good observation, NHBull. I tie Palomar knots frequently because I drop shot often and it creates a good knot , size-wise, for passing back through the hook eye to get the hook to stand out perpendicular to the line. And, I tie them correctly.
But, for those who have trouble using with them with fluoro, heck, just use a different knot. Lots of options. Not because of a bad knot, I just greatly prefer a Uni knot for most applications . . . other than a drop shot.
Your best knot is the one that you tie well.
Brad
Team9nine reply :
On 12/29/2018 at 8:56 PM, NHBull said:There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well. I just don't understand why folks continue to use it when there so many options.
Because life is simpler when you only need one connecting knot for every outfit you own. The Palomar has been tested and proven as one of strongest knots you can tie no matter the line type being used. It's not as difficult as we sometimes make it sound in these forum discussions.
Catt reply :
The Palomar is the only knot I use for monofilament, fluorocarbon, & braid...never had an issue.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 12:49 AM, Team9nine said:Because life is simpler when you only need one connecting knot for every outfit you own. The Palomar has been tested and proven as one of strongest knots you can tie no matter the line type being used. It's not as difficult as we sometimes make it sound in these forum discussions.
FishnFool a little better though on all three lines and uses less line to tie. Ease of tying well if quite a few people have issues maybe its not all that easy to tie correctly. A person having tied it for years it should be easy. Both knots are very easy for me to tie but the FnF knot has tested stronger for me than the palomar with all my lines.
I use light line often nanofil 6-8# so using a knot that gives me 3-4 pounds 50% more strength is quite significant.
Here another chart
15 pound test mono
14 pound test braid
15 pound fluoro
Team9nine reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 4:14 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:FishnFool a little better though on all three lines and uses less line to tie. Ease of tying well if quite a few people have issues maybe its not all that easy to tie correctly. A person having tied it for years it should be easy. Both knots are very easy for me to tie but the FnF knot has tested stronger for me than the palomar with all my lines.
I use light line often nanofil 6-8# so using a knot that gives me 3-4 pounds 50% more strength is quite significant.
Here another chart
15 pound test mono
14 pound test braid
15 pound fluoro
All depends on whose data you want to believe 
According to this chart, F&F is slightly worse than Palomar with braid and fluoro. Both average nearly identical.
EDIT: Actually, looking at all the data points in your chart where they are claiming that the majority of the knots tested with 15# fluorocarbon broke higher than the rated test line with the knots tied in them, I'd say is highly questionable at best...and the data points showing near 20# break strength are borderline bogus. Something isn't right with that data set.
MickD reply :
On 12/28/2018 at 9:42 PM, Brad Reid said:Fluorocarbon has less heat conductivity than monofilament. It does. So, to the extent that burning is an issue, it'd be more so with monofilament.
If true, the heat generated by tying the knot would be held more by FC (and therefore have more opportunity damage the leader ) than mono, which would conduct more heat away from the knot. i'm not sure the conclusion is true, or if true, significant. Just another opinion.
NHBull reply :
........it's Winter ????
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 4:39 AM, Team9nine said:All depends on whose data you want to believe
EDIT: Actually, looking at all the data points in your chart where they are claiming that the majority of the knots tested with 15# fluorocarbon broke higher than the rated test line with the knots tied in them, I'd say is highly questionable at best...and the data points showing near 20# break strength are borderline bogus. Something isn't right with that data set.
Those are knot wars numbers. Maybe the actual strength of the line is greater than rated strength.
Team9nine reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 6:54 AM, QUAKEnSHAKE said:Those are knot wars numbers. Maybe the actual strength of the line is greater than rated strength.
I'm guessing typo in their data set. No doubt the line tests somewhat above its rated strength, but you're not getting 30% greater line strength than rated with a knot tied in your fluoro. That flies in the face of about every other piece of data you can find in this regard...and I've seen a bunch of it. If instead that was 20# or even 17# fluoro they tested on (instead of 15#), then I say, 'OK, plausible." Just a quick browse of the extensive data Tackle Tour has amassed with fluoro knots, tensile strengths and so many lines tested should tell you something is wrong. That said, I did see where the Berkley braid knot beat the FnF knot in their final showdown, whatever year that was 
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 7:22 AM, Team9nine said:I'm guessing typo in their data set. No doubt the line tests somewhat above its rated strength, but you're not getting 30% greater line strength than rated with a knot tied in your fluoro. That flies in the face of about every other piece of data you can find in this regard...and I've seen a bunch of it. If instead that was 20# or even 17# fluoro they tested on (instead of 15#), then I say, 'OK, plausible." Just a quick browse of the extensive data Tackle Tour has amassed with fluoro knots, tensile strengths and so many lines tested should tell you something is wrong. That said, I did see where the Berkley braid knot beat the FnF knot in their final showdown, whatever year that was
Yeah in the chart berkley knot better with FC not as good with braid mono. I use mostly braid and mono only for backing so good for me.
Brad Reid reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 4:52 AM, MickD said:If true, the heat generated by tying the knot would be held more by FC (and therefore have more opportunity damage the leader ) than mono, which would conduct more heat away from the knot. i'm not sure the conclusion is true, or if true, significant. Just another opinion.
Mick, no. The heat generated by the friction of snugging down a "dry" knot never rises to the level in fluorocarbon that it does in a monofilament. This is the heat conductivity part of the equation. But, when you wet a knot, of any sort, water (spit) has a much higher level of heat conductivity and conducts it away from the line. It just conducts less heat away with fluoro than mono because the fluoro never gets as hot. Advantage, fluorocarbon.
There are other aspects, for sure, and fluoro lines do have fractionally higher levels of thermal expansion for the same amount of heat exposure. But, the slight difference is offset . . . because fluoro never gets as heated to begin with. Let's call this physical property a draw.
The real culprit is fluoro's much lower bending strength. For a given tensile strength rating of the two lines, say both can suspend 20 lbs. before breaking, fluorocarbon does less well when "flexed" (bent) and blows out or ruptures more easily. Advantage, monofilament.
Add this to the fact that the fluorocarbon material is just much more dense and it makes getting it set well and deep in a knot, of any kind, more difficult than with most monofilaments. Advantage, monofilament.
Brad
MickD reply :
If the heat (thermal) conductivity is higher for one material than another, ANY heat will leave the area quicker. What has higher thermal conductivity, copper or steel? Copper. If you heat two samples the heat will be conducted away from the source faster with higher conductivity material, copper ,faster.
If FC actually has a lower thermal conductivity than mono then heat will be conducted away from the source slower than with mono.
I'm not talking about what material when deformed or stretched or tied will generate more or less heat, but when the thermal conductivity of a material is higher than another, heat will be conducted away from the source faster in that material.
What all of this means to knot strength is, in my opinion, insignificant. What is significant is that FC, as you say, is fragile when bent. Anyone who has tried to get a backlash out of a baitcaster knows this. I am not a fan of FC for anything other than leader material. And I even doubt that it's coefficient of refraction advantage is significant.
Having said all of this, one fact is indisputable: millions of fish have been caught with both FC and mono using many different knots.
txchaser reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 7:59 AM, Brad Reid said:The real culprit is fluoro's much lower bending strength.
Is this helped in the (what appears to be) stiffer FC leader or made worse?
MickD reply :
I find that the FC (and mono) designed for leader to be tougher, less fragile, than those designed to be line. Leader is stiffer, which one would think might make it more sensitive to bending problems, but I think in the formulation the stiffer/harder stuff is less fragile. Nope, no data, just my impression.
Brad Reid reply :
On 12/30/2018 at 9:37 AM, MickD said:If the heat (thermal) conductivity is higher for one material than another, ANY heat will leave the area quicker. What has higher thermal conductivity, copper or steel? Copper. If you heat two samples the heat will be conducted away from the source faster with higher conductivity material, copper ,faster.
If FC actually has a lower thermal conductivity than mono then heat will be conducted away from the source slower than with mono.
I'm not talking about what material when deformed or stretched or tied will generate more or less heat, but when the thermal conductivity of a material is higher than another, heat will be conducted away from the source faster in that material.
What all of this means to knot strength is, in my opinion, insignificant. What is significant is that FC, as you say, is fragile when bent. Anyone who has tried to get a backlash out of a baitcaster knows this. I am not a fan of FC for anything other than leader material. And I even doubt that it's coefficient of refraction advantage is significant.
Having said all of this, one fact is indisputable: millions of fish have been caught with both FC and mono using many different knots.
Mick, correct on your metals analogy. A quick cinching of a "dry" knot, any resulting friction heat created, won't penetrate and move through the fluoro as fast as it would mono. There just isn't much heat to localize or otherwise spread.
I think we agree that it is insignificant for either line. And, it certainly is if we wet the knot though I view this as more of a lubrication than as a "heat sink." The heat conductivity of both line types is very close to begin with.
Yes, more about fragility of fluorocarbon.
I also use it solely as a leader, don't like it as a main line.
Brad
On 12/30/2018 at 3:27 PM, txchaser said:Is this helped in the (what appears to be) stiffer FC leader or made worse?
Stiffer lines are harder to "bend," tougher to draw into a tight knot, too. So, my general thought is that a stiffer line bends more poorly, suffers the consequences related to it. For sure, it is tougher to cast.
But, where it remains relatively un-bent, like a short piece of these tougher fluoro formulas specially-made for leaders, they have other attributes, likely stand up to abrasion better, for example.
I personally use 6 to 8 ft. leaders using standard fluoros like Invizx.
Brad
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