Balance vs. Overall Weight 2024
fissure_man reply :
In a casting setup, how important is balance to you? Is there a point where decreasing overall weight becomes a negative, because it throws off balance? Is adding weight ever justifiable?
Seems like virtually all rods are "tip heavy" off the shelf, with the balance point ahead of the reel seat. I palm a casting reel, so using a heavier reel (as is often recommended) doesn’t actually do much to affect the balance, and just makes the whole deal heavier. The best solution would be to reduce weight ahead of the reel seat with lighter guides, better blank ($$$). Next best would be stick with a light reel and add weight where it’s most effective – the butt end.
I have a couple older BPS rods with threaded-in butt caps that can be removed to add washers and balance the rod. I thought this was a pretty cool option but it never became very popular I guess. You can add a sleeve to the butt of any rod but it won't necessarily fit well on the smaller split grips, and it looks dumb 
Is rod balance something that people even care about anymore? If it is, where/when/why/how do you achieve it?
Yudo1 reply :
I used to care more about balance when I first got my nrx's. I used rubber chair bumpers and quarters on the butt. I took them off to u40 the cork and never bothered to put them back on. Personally, it doesn't bother me anymore because the rods are so light to begin. If I was using heavier rods, it might be more of an issue especially with tip up techniques.
bigturtle reply :
I havnt used a rod that was unbalanced enough for me to care about in a looooong time.
QUAKEnSHAKE reply :
Get a rod weight around 3.5oz or lower and balance isn't much of an issue. Just not going to be enough tip weight in front once a 6-7 ounce reel is put on to be a bother.
bigfruits reply :
its very important to me. a heavier balanced rod is less fatiguing after 8 hrs than a considerably lighter unbalanced one in my experience.
I traded an NRX 873 for a MB FMJ for this reason (and because i dislike the grip) and I am glad I did! My NRX 842c is well balanced and my 843c is a little unbalanced but not too bad.
Jeff H reply :
I do not care for the feel of neutral or tip light balance in my rods. Prefer slight tip heavy. Also, adding ballast to rear to balance is an extreme no-go for me! That just feels horrible. Have not bought a rod in a long time that the balance was so bad on it required attention
Team9nine reply :
Balance is nice, and almost all my favorite rods have it, and it's not anything price/quality/weight dependent. I've got $40 rods that are a joy to fish with, along with $240 rods that are, too. The best way to achieve it is to buy it that way in the first place 
Everything else I either live with it "as is", or sell it. I won't add weight, but also believe there can be such a thing as "too light."
CroakHunter reply :
My lightest and cheapest combo are the same combo. I guess I got lucky lol
Jon G reply :
I don't care about balance and weight mainly because I never notice it and if I do it really doesn't bother me.
rippin-lips reply :
Balance is important to me. I guess now it's more of a was. I've bought so many rods and sold them because of crappy balance. Luckily I found a company who has a rod series that fits everything I look for in a rod. So now balance isn't important because I got what I want.
BassWhole! reply :
Balance over weight. I picked up a first generation Mojo Bass once, and threw up a little in my mouth.
Columbia Craw reply :
Balance is very important to me, especially for tip up presentations.
HookRz reply :
Depends. Like many mentioned for tip up presentations it's essential. Finesse worm, hair jigs, tubes. Yeah, even the "Ned" I know the latter is supposed to be a "no-feel" rig but with a light, sensitive and properly balanced rod I can feel the fish suck it in unless its really windy.
I find myself enjoying finesse, and catching more fish these days, but the tackle has to be just right. I mean just right.
cottny27 reply :
On 7/7/2017 at 4:41 AM, reason said:Balance over weight. I picked up a first generation Mojo Bass once, and threw up a little in my mouth.
Agree!!
EvanT123 reply :
Weight is the enemy of sensativity. I try and build rods and put together combos that are well rounded. A solid proven reel and a rod that serves the purpose I intend it for. When I build rods I try and keep the top half as light as possible by using the lightest possible guide train that will work within the function of the rod.
fissure_man reply :
So clearly the best way to get a balanced rod is to just buy a balanced rod and not bother with any tweaking… duh 
. Seems like balance is important to many, but few will go to the length of counterweighting an unbalanced rod to improve it.
I wonder if any of the mainstream (not custom) rod makers use butt weights in their off the shelf rods to adjust balance.
For certain specs I imagine it’s going to be pretty tough to achieve near-neutral balance at the reel seat (if desired) only by using light guides and blank, at any price point. Can such a beast be created without counterweighting or using abnormally heavy butt components in say a 7’6” or 8’0” XHeavy flipping rod?
You can always put a sleeve on with some quarters but people don’t want to do that on a higher end rod. To me it would be a cool option to see customizable butt weighting systems as described in the original post, especially on long flipping rods which are notoriously unbalanced. I think it would sell; the people who are buying mid-to-high-end fishing rods love to overanalyze and tweak their gear. Include some fancy colored tungsten washers at varying weights and get pro endorsement… Thoughts? The rod could be designed to minimize weight everywhere (not caring about balance), then the angler could add a minimal amount of weight, concentrated where it's most effective to achieve the balance they want. Would this just be a gimmick that nobody would value?
Team9nine reply :
On 7/7/2017 at 10:55 PM, fissure_man said:So clearly the best way to get a balanced rod is to just buy a balanced rod and not bother with any tweaking… duh
. Seems like balance is important to many, but few will go to the length of counterweighting an unbalanced rod to improve it.
You can always put a sleeve on with some quarters but people don’t want to do that on a higher end rod. To me it would be a cool option to see customizable butt weighting systems as described in the original post, especially on long flipping rods which are notoriously unbalanced. I think it would sell; the people who are buying mid-to-high-end fishing rods love to overanalyze and tweak their gear. Include some fancy colored tungsten washers at varying weights and get pro endorsement… Thoughts? The rod could be designed to minimize weight everywhere (not caring about balance), then the angler could add a minimal amount of weight, concentrated where it's most effective to achieve the balance they want. Would this just be a gimmick that nobody would value?
First highlight - depends upon your definition of "improve." Many would argue adding weight isn't an "improvement," even though you'll get better balance. There's more to it than just achieving balance (IMHO).
Second highlight - been systems along that line over the years; short answer to question: "yes"
WRB reply :
Dobyns adds weight to balance his rods, it's important to Gary.
A well balanced rod reel combo will always be tip heavy with a lure tied on.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 7/7/2017 at 11:52 PM, Team9nine said:
First highlight - depends upon your definition of "improve." Many would argue adding weight isn't an "improvement," even though you'll get better balance. There's more to it than just achieving balance (IMHO).
Second highlight - been systems along that line over the years; short answer to question: "yes"
Fair enough. I guess that’s the original question – “Balance vs. Overall Weight” – is it ever better to add weight?
My line of reasoning is like this – seems that many people place some value in a balanced rod, even avoiding or selling certain rods if the balance doesn’t suit them. When those folks find a stock rod that is balanced to their liking, I would ask what’s different about that rod (say for the same length/power/handle length)?
A rod maker can adjust the balance by removing weight up front, but only to a point, especially on a long rod. So differences in balance between rods also have to do with how much weight is behind the reel seat, right? That’s what I was getting at in asking if any mainstream rod makers add weights (which @WRB gave an example of). Some of the folks who like balanced rods, but would never add weight to a rood - I wonder how they'd like the feel of a Dobyns rod before telling them it was counter-weighted? 
Does it matter if balance is achieved with the use of actual ‘weights’ or just different component weights? To me, using counterweights would allow the design to focus on minimizing weight everywhere first, then using a minimal amount of weight in the most effective location to achieve the desired balance. Like an F1 car, designed to be light, then strategically ballasted as needed to a minimum weight regulation. This approach would result in the lightest overall weight for a balanced rod, and if one preferred the rod to be simply as light as possible, it could be run it without weights (or anywhere in between).
Sounds like Dobyns uses a similar approach, but they decide how their rods will balance. Having a slick system to do this kind of customizing yourself would be cool IMO, even if only on some long/powerful rods which tend to be the furthest out of balance.
On 7/8/2017 at 12:06 AM, WRB said:
A well balanced rod reel combo will always be tip heavy with a lure tied on.
True, but often the lure is in the water, sitting on bottom or falling on a semi-slack line and you're not really feeling its weight.
WRB reply :
I hold my casting rods foreward of the reel seat, the reason my custom rods have 2" foregrip. Moving the balance point by 1 finger width changes it to optimize the balance, plus this allows me to feel my line with index finger and thumb tips regardless of the reel size or rod length.
If anglers insist on palming their bait casting reels they will be stuck with factory balance or have your rods custom made to adjust the balance point to your specification. Spinning rods are easier to move your hand foreword by 1 or more fingers to optimize balance.
Tom
NHBull reply :
Overall weight doesn't concern me as I change rigs a couple times a day, so I never really notice the weight.
That said, I prefer "comfort", sometimes it is a bit out of balance but not enough to get me to sell.
I find that shamano on loomis tends to really work for me.......even changing different size reels
MickD reply :
On 7/7/2017 at 12:31 AM, Team9nine said:Balance is nice, and almost all my favorite rods have it, and it's not anything price/quality/weight dependent. I've got $40 rods that are a joy to fish with, along with $240 rods that are, too. The best way to achieve it is to buy it that way in the first place
Based on your many astute posts, I'm sure you realize but did not mention that a rod does not have "balance" on its own. The reel is part of the balance equation. And the current trend to longer rods makes achieving balance harder.
Steveo-1969 reply :
Balance is important to me when fishing "tip up" presentations and I prefer my rod to be tip "light". I have two NRX casting rods and found both to be tip heavy so I balanced them with rubber chair leg bumpers and quarters (or maybe it was nickels?).
I don't care if my expensive high-end rods don't look pretty. In my hands they feel and fish beautifully.
Team9nine reply :
On 7/8/2017 at 1:40 AM, MickD said:Based on your many astute posts, I'm sure you realize but did not mention that a rod does not have "balance" on its own. The reel is part of the balance equation. And the current trend to longer rods makes achieving balance harder.
I guess I would push back and say that it depends how you define 'balance.' Every rod has a balancing point somewhere along the blank, reel or no reel, long or short. As you mentioned, adding a reel shifts that balancing point, but doesn't necessarily make a rod "balanced." For example, where you hold the rod (and many of us hold them differently) will affect whether a rod feels balanced to you. Which reel you add will also affect this. My point was that the rods that feel and fish best to me (are "balanced") require no modification on my part given the reels I use and how I hold my rods. They are great right off the shelf. Many are not, and they get less use, or are tolerated or sold.
Team9nine reply :
On 7/8/2017 at 12:41 AM, fissure_man said:
Fair enough. I guess that’s the original question – “Balance vs. Overall Weight” – is it ever better to add weight?
My line of reasoning is like this – seems that many people place some value in a balanced rod, even avoiding or selling certain rods if the balance doesn’t suit them. When those folks find a stock rod that is balanced to their liking, I would ask what’s different about that rod (say for the same length/power/handle length)?
A rod maker can adjust the balance by removing weight up front, but only to a point, especially on a long rod. So differences in balance between rods also have to do with how much weight is behind the reel seat, right? That’s what I was getting at in asking if any mainstream rod makers add weights (which @WRB gave an example of). Some of the folks who like balanced rods, but would never add weight to a rood - I wonder how they'd like the feel of a Dobyns rod before telling them it was counter-weighted?
Does it matter if balance is achieved with the use of actual ‘weights’ or just different component weights? To me, using counterweights would allow the design to focus on minimizing weight everywhere first, then using a minimal amount of weight in the most effective location to achieve the desired balance. Like an F1 car, designed to be light, then strategically ballasted as needed to a minimum weight regulation. This approach would result in the lightest overall weight for a balanced rod, and if one preferred the rod to be simply as light as possible, it could be run it without weights (or anywhere in between).
Sounds like Dobyns uses a similar approach, but they decide how their rods will balance. Having a slick system to do this kind of customizing yourself would be cool IMO, even if only on some long/powerful rods which tend to be the furthest out of balance.
You can like the feel of a rod without fretting over the counterbalance method. However, if you don't like the feel, I wouldn't add extra mass after the fact to try and get better balance. A builder has options from the beginning, the purchaser is usually pretty restricted. Adding mass hurts sensitivity, regardless of where you add it. Adding it to the butt of the rod compounds the problem because of excess at the farthest end, creating additional issues with inertia and momentum that could potentially be avoided with better build quality.
fissure_man reply :
Rod makers have a few more options, but not many, right? Unless the rod or handle length is changing, it essentially comes down to adding/removing weight in one form or another. A long, heavy power rod is going to take some mass-y components to balance even with a light blank and guides; I wonder what is the best strategy finish the handle end, keeping in mind weight, comfort, sensitivity, balance, inertia/momentum, …. ?
It’s a good point that adding ‘concentrated’ mass to the butt might cause some unwanted inertial effects. But looking at simple rotation around the hand grip, achieving the same balance with more mass distributed further up the handle would also cause similar (but somewhat less severe) inertial effects and would increase the overall weight added to the blank (it’s a ‘balancing act’ ). Momentum might be worse, depending on the motion we're talking about.
I’d expect the felt inertia when you pivot a casting rod/reel in your hand is dominated by the mass of the rod ahead of the handle, being distributed further from the pivot, but I don’t really know… And I have no idea how noticeable the difference would be between say 1/2 oz at the butt vs. 1 oz halfway between the butt and grip (to achieve equal balance). It’s would be individual too, depending on casting/retrieving mechanics…
MickD reply :
On 7/8/2017 at 3:28 AM, Team9nine said:
I guess I would push back and say that it depends how you define 'balance.' Every rod has a balancing point somewhere along the blank, reel or no reel, long or short. As you mentioned, adding a reel shifts that balancing point, but doesn't necessarily make a rod "balanced." For example, where you hold the rod (and many of us hold them differently) will affect whether a rod feels balanced to you. Which reel you add will also affect this. My point was that the rods that feel and fish best to me (are "balanced") require no modification on my part given the reels I use and how I hold my rods. They are great right off the shelf. Many are not, and they get less use, or are tolerated or sold.
I'll bet the rods that you say are "balanced" tend to be shorter, lighter power, and more expensive than ones that you consider not as well balanced. Do you have a 7 1/2 foot MH casting rod that you consider "balanced?" And I'll bet you use very light reels.
I agree with your comment on "depending on how you define balance." However, you also mention that every rod has a balance point, which is true. It is a point that is not affected by anything. It is what it is. It is the point on the rod where the left half and the right half weigh the same. Pure physics, not opinion. And the position of the balance point on the rod will be affected by the reel attached to it unless that reel weighs zero or is placed at the exactly same point as the rod-only balance point. We don't fish with just a rod, or just a reel; we fish with an assembly made from a rod and a reel, not to mention a lure on the end of it. (Man, does that affect the "balance.")
The problem in discussing balance without having the reel involved is that less experienced anglers can be misled by thinking that what he thinks is balanced in the store will also be balanced when he adds his not-so-expensive relatively heavy reel to it. And a 3/4 ounce lure.
fissure_man reply :
@MickD - lots of folks palm their casting reels, gripping pretty close to the center of gravity of the reel. If the reel is sitting right on the pivot point where you’re seeking balance, the weight of the reel doesn't really matter (it’s like piling bricks onto the center of a see-saw). In the original post I mentioned that I was referring to balance about the center of the reel seat, where reel weight has minimal influence.
The ‘balance point’ usually changes when you add a reel, and often it changes a lot (this is because essentially zero rods are balanced at the reel seat to start with). But IMO discussing ‘balance point’ is more misleading – it doesn’t tell you the whole story. If a rod + 10 oz reel balances at 2” ahead of the reel, is it as well-balanced as a rod + 5 oz reel that also balances at 2" ahead of the reel? I wouldn’t say so, unless you are actually gripping the rod at 2” ahead of the reel (like some do). In that case both would be neutrally balanced, though one is much heavier.
If you’re gripping ahead of or behind the center of gravity of the reel, then reel weight will start to affect the balance you feel a lot. This is another reason why (IMO) some enterprising rod maker should add a slick system for custom balancing – we all use different grips, reels, and have different balance preferences (tip-heavy, tip-light, neutral). Let us decide
Team9nine reply :
On 7/8/2017 at 5:25 AM, fissure_man said:Rod makers have a few more options, but not many, right? Unless the rod or handle length is changing, it essentially comes down to adding/removing weight in one form or another. A long, heavy power rod is going to take some mass-y components to balance even with a light blank and guides; I wonder what is the best strategy finish the handle end, keeping in mind weight, comfort, sensitivity, balance, inertia/momentum, …. ?
It’s a good point that adding ‘concentrated’ mass to the butt might cause some unwanted inertial effects. But looking at simple rotation around the hand grip, achieving the same balance with more mass distributed further up the handle would also cause similar (but somewhat less severe) inertial effects and would increase the overall weight added to the blank (it’s a ‘balancing act’
I’d expect the felt inertia when you pivot a casting rod/reel in your hand is dominated by the mass of the rod ahead of the handle, being distributed further from the pivot, but I don’t really know… And I have no idea how noticeable the difference would be between say 1/2 oz at the butt vs. 1 oz halfway between the butt and grip (to achieve equal balance). It’s would be individual too, depending on casting/retrieving mechanics…
I can tell you that on my worst balanced rods (long, heavy sticks) that I have added butt caps and weights to to balance them, while you end up getting the desired balance, you can definitely feel the effect of having the added weight on the back end of the rod when you cast. Additionally, since most casts aren't simply wrist rotation, but also involve some arm movement, the momentum/inertia feeling just made things seem really awkward for me. Add in the loss of sensitivity, and I have since removed and stopped using any of the aftermarket add-ons for rod balancing.
On 7/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, MickD said:I'll bet the rods that you say are "balanced" tend to be shorter, lighter power, and more expensive than ones that you consider not as well balanced. Do you have a 7 1/2 foot MH casting rod that you consider "balanced?" And I'll bet you use very light reels.
I agree with your comment on "depending on how you define balance." However, you also mention that every rod has a balance point, which is true. It is a point that is not affected by anything. It is what it is. It is the point on the rod where the left half and the right half weigh the same. Pure physics, not opinion. And the position of the balance point on the rod will be affected by the reel attached to it unless that reel weighs zero or is placed at the exactly same point as the rod-only balance point. We don't fish with just a rod, or just a reel; we fish with an assembly made from a rod and a reel, not to mention a lure on the end of it. (Man, does that affect the "balance.")
The problem in discussing balance without having the reel involved is that less experienced anglers can be misled by thinking that what he thinks is balanced in the store will also be balanced when he adds his not-so-expensive relatively heavy reel to it. And a 3/4 ounce lure.
You are correct that the longest rods I own (7'3"-7'6") have the "worst" balance (relatively speaking), but not so much on the price point aspect. My best balancing spinning rods range from 6'2" - 7'0", and have a price range between $49 (Berkley Lightning Rod) and $270 (Loomis & Custom builds). My best casting rods range from 6'0"-7'0" and have a price range from $40 (Lightning Rod, again) to $230 (Loomis).
On the balance point, if you start with just a rod blank and give it to two different builders/manufacturers, you can end up with two very different balance points for the same rod based on the components used and things such as guide number and spacing, materials, reel seats, butt length, etc., etc., so I would say you can have a big effect on that balance point, which goes back to my point of the best balanced rods are already built toward that end.
By measuring several parameters of all the rods I own, I have come up with a formula that lets me know pretty well how balanced a rod will be before I even buy it, assuming I can get those parameter measurements in advance. Not too difficult in a store, but much more challenging if buying online. It works for me... and things like reel weight and lure weight don't seem to play as big a role as some might think.
MickD reply :
I agree with everything you say. Regarding weights, I used to try balancing by adding weights to the butt with a BPS system, and by the time I got one old rod back then balanced, it almost left my hand when casting once. I build my own now and use hi performance blanks (light, expensive usually-the basis of my comments on expensive and power are that expensive will get you the lightest blanks and lower power will do the same, as will shorter) and I build as light as reasonably possible for the job to be done, and I never add weight to balance. The length of the rod below the handle is dictated by what I've found works FOR ME without hanging up on my clothing. I know that YOU can tell handling a rod without the reel that it will be good or not for you. But you are a pretty experienced, expert, evaluator of what works for you. I think the reason that one can say that reel and lure weight don't seem to play a major role is that the equipment most of us use is pretty light, and the lighter it is, the less important balance is. IMHO. Good discussion.
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