Temperature Trends 2024

Paul Roberts reply : 

OK, Muddy was right: My befuddled Does Temperature Matter... thread was a "lead in"; But kind of an inadvertent one, born of some frustration.

In articles, videos, and fishing reports, so rarely are the specific conditions under which fish are caught highlighted. It's this lure and that, and always..."DEPENDS ON CONDITIONS. What conditions!! That's where the devil is. Tell us more!

I've come to pay VERY close attention to temperature. It's so...predictable, especially in spring. But I never see anyone else doing so on my waters. The changes that matter (the trends) are seemingly obvious (I plan my days by forecast), but how they happen in real time takes some paying attention to.

A couple good examples from the past two weeks I've posted in the Western reports section. Look for "Two More Fascinating Days..." and "Two Interesting Days...".

The keys here were:

-Rapid warming (best following a cold front)

-Light wind to concentrate warm water (it floats)

-Pond/cove topography and shoreline configuration

Nothing new really, but rarely does anyone mention the specific conditions fish are caught in. The odd thing is, on my waters, I'm always alone in this predictability often with my rod bent.

This is spring-time fishing, but interestingly, although the concentrations of heat and fish change some over the course of the year, and other things come into play, temperature trends appear to continue to be important. I'm continuing to keep my eyes open, and my toes in the water.

View the posts. Interesting stuff, or old hat?

I'm wondering if this is a local phenomenon (I don't think so). What do anglers around the country see? What about the far south? The far north? I've already conversed with southern Canadian anglers -fascinating.

Anyway, my request, if you're game, is for anyone interested to think about fishing days in terms of "heating days" -great, good, fair, or poor. Do you see a correlation with either fish activity or fishing success? This should hold until bass move away from shorelines sometime in summer, when they then seek stability, I believe.

Comments?

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RoLo reply : 

There's no doubt about it. As I've posted here many times, I believe that the "trend" of water temperature

is exponentially more significant than the static "numeric" value.

If someone tells you the water temperature is 65 degrees, they haven't told you very much.

Provided you have your own water temperature gauge, you'd be far better informed if you were told

what the water temperature was two-days ago. If it was 60-deg two-days ago, that's a positive condition (uptrend),

but if it was 70-deg two-days, that's a negative condition (downtrend).

Dean Rojas set the all-time BASS one-day record on Lake Toho.

He did so during a powerful warming trend that followed a bitter cold-front...no surprise there.

My boat's been in the shop almost two-weeks now, but I posted the modest results of our last trip (Southeast section).

There was a stiff wind out of the north, and we were working the northern shore (protected side).

It was beginning to look like a blank, so I ran to the south side in search of "rising" water temperatures.

I figured the warmer upper layer (epilimnion) was blowing southward, so it might improve our situation.

Sure enough, we made fish contact in the choppy water and whitecaps along the south side. Here's the irony,

windblown plankton usually gets the credit, but the real reason was rapidly rising water temperatures.

During a stiff wind, the whole lake rotates like a giant waterwheel. As the top layer blows south,

the water on the north side is replaced by cold water siphoned from the deep. The differential was 6 degrees,

which indicates the magnitude of the uptrend on the south shore, and the magnitude of the downtrend on the north shore (3 deg x 2).

Roger

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Roger,

Excellent. The blown plankton thing gets repeated again and again, until it's become cliche. That CAN happen, but that requires a large, and appropriate, plankton population to begin with (not always the case , especially so early in the year). Other things like water surface conditions, bottom disturbance dislodging prey, and, of course, temperature differences, are more often the reason over more waters for a big downwind bite.

Water temperature is a "biggy" and from what I see on my waters, few anglers actually pay attention to the often less than obvious changes that can make or break a day's fishing.

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jrhennecke reply : 

I understand the temperature trend.  When you talk about the downwind bite Paul do you apply the same theory to rivers or do you feel that the current is more important in that instance?

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WRB reply : 

Unless you have a underwater camera with a temperature probe, you more than likely only have a surface temperature probe on your boat.

Water isn't very thermally conductive, therefor doesn't change qwickly to solar heating or low air temperatures. The surface water down to about 1 foot insulates the water below it. For example the upper layer core water temperature in a lake that is 30 feet deep with a thermocline at 15 feet is 70 degrees. The lake is subjected to a 80 degree warming trend during the day and 60 degree nights for a few days with claim breezy conditions. You check the water surface temperatures at dawn when you luanch at 72 degrees and again later in the afternoon at 76 degrees. You are metering and catching bass at 12 to 15 feet and they really start to bite and you checked the water at 76 degrees.

What is your conclusion? the bass are more active at 76 degree surface water? The water down at 12 feet is still 70 degrees and will not change day or night under those conditions.

Now a cold front comes in and cloudy conditions with light rain occurs over a few days. The same lake, you lauch at dawn and the water temperature is 70, the thermocline is 15 feet and you are catching surface bass working baitfish and the bite stops in an hour, but you continue to cast surface lures without success. By the afternoon you give up and go back to the deeper bass at 12 feet and start to catch them again. You look at the surface temperature and it's 72 degrees, ahhh warmer water, you figured it our again. Or perhaps the bass were active in the morning, shut off becoming nuetral and you starting target more active deeper bass in the afternoon.

The cold front paases through, its windy and colder when you launch, the surface temperature is 68 degrees, you go to where they were biting surface lures the last time and you also know the bass should be tight to cover because of the frontal conditions and you blank. later in the afternoon after flipping and pitching the cover without success, you notice the water is only 66 degrees, so you move down the lake and meter the thermocline at 18 feet and also meter some fish at 16 to 18 feet on a point. There is less wind in the wind protected side of the point and the water is back up to 68 degrees. You worm fish down to 18 feet and start catching a few, the warmer water agian. Or maybe the bass never moved in the deeper water and have been eating worms all week for the fisherman who knew they where holding there.

The big difference with any lake is the lakes classification. Power generating highland reservoirs are different than shallow low land water storage reservoirs; becuase the current is created differently; wind in the lowland and water being drawn in the highland and/or wind. No wind and the lowland doesn't have any current, but the highland can have current on a claim day when generating power.

Bass being cold blooded animals are affected by water temperatures and the temperature controls a big part of their life. Every bass fsiherman should understand that. But you can't change the physics to fit your own beliefs, it is what it is.

I stopped using a depth temperature probe years ago when the first good paper graphs came out and I could meter the thermocline. I still occasionally check the basses core body temperature with a portable digital temperature probe used to monitor my livewell water when filled. If you accept the fact that the surface water is different than the water a few feet deeper, then your sonar becomes your eyes for bass or baitfish you can't see.

Lakes are not like the ocean or rivers where currents are constanly changing and temperature breaks are measured vertically. Lake temperature breaks are usually horizontal layers, unless wind or water movement creates vertical temperature breaks.

I fully agree that high winds can create lake turnover, but it's a rare condition.

WRB

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Paul Roberts reply : 

jrhennecke,

River current is mixing, which would likely overpower any wind generated currents. However certain large rivers would likely have protected (from main river currents) areas that I would expect could attract concentrations of prey and bass. I do not fish large rivers so you'd have to answer that for your river. If you had an oxbow, wind might play a role.

WB,

All my observations are done on small shallow waters. The particular water I described on the 20th and 25th was all of 10 feet deep at the deepest point, and colder below (the very reason that strong wind quashed my expectations on the 20th).

In my small waters the bass respond to conditions along the shoreline pretty quickly following ice-out. The shallows heat rapidly on certain days, and the fish respond strongly. Carp, bluegills, and bass are surface oriented at these times the bass seemingly staying just below the limit of visibility from the surface, then moving further toward the surface as the sun gets lower. It's pretty neat to see. The concentrations can be amazing.

So, what I'm describing on the 20th and 25th is a shallow water phenomenon. However, even in my largest deepest waters (still only ~20ft) the response still happens, but is delayed, yet the same actual temperature numbers still apply. This, I believe, would be akin to the early spring advice for big waters: Find a good shallow flat or cove with access to deep water for spring bass. At one time I spent a lot of time on a really huge lake, Lake Ontario, fishing for trout and salmon with all the electronics available at the time. The southern shore was dubbed the chrome coast during spring, as it warmed well before the north shore, and collected trout and salmon in absolutely stunning concentrations. Bass, however, aren't nearly as mobile as salmonids.

Bass, at least in my small waters, do appear to be heat seekers. I understand more and more why they are called sunfish. Very soon, as we approach the spawn, you'll start seeing the posts about large bass lying near the surface, (and un-catchable). These are heat seeking females.

Heat seeking appears to continue until mid-summer, when they disappear mid-day. Peak activity happens in the early AM, evening and at night. Tellingly, this disappearance does not happen in the very northern part of the largemouth's range, where summer temps don't break 75F -according to some anglers I've discussed this with.

Interestingly, during summer my small water fish seem to relate to main lake (pond) basins like big water bass. By then though, the depths in my ponds are already measuring into the upper 70's, or a bit more, throughout.

I believe what I'm seeing is normal behavior for northern largemouth bass. What my small waters lack are the complications of large complex systems, and deep water populations acclimated to depth. I see this as a blessing, in terms of discerning responses to seasonal change in a species pre-historically adapted to shallow vegetated habitats, and has only relatively recently been stocked all over the country.

I'd love to have more of your feedback, considering your research on seasonal body temps in bass. I was unable to locate your article, "The Cosmic Clock and Bass Calendar". Would love to bounce things off you as I proceed.

Thanks,

Paul

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RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Bass, at least in my small waters, do appear to be heat seekers. I understand more and more why they are called sunfish. Very soon, as we approach the spawn, you'll start seeing the posts about large bass lying near the surface, (and un-catchable). These are heat seeking females.

You and I see eye-to-eye on the lion's share of this topic, with one small divergence.

I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but I do not visualize bass in pursuit of optimal conditions.

The direction in which to swim in order to raise or lower water temperatures hinges on a host of interactive variables.

Moreover, since bass are cold-blooded creatures we can assume that they're comfortable in all water temperatures

(given adequate oxygen). Instead, I believe that bass react in a predictable way when given water temperatures come to them.

If optimal conditions occur in 3 feet of water, fishing success will create the illusion that bass have migrated to the 3 ft contour line.

As it happens, over the course of an annual cycle, all water temperatures come to all depths in all parts of the lake.

In short, I believe that bass react, rather than pursue.

I'd be interested in your view on this

Roger

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Catt reply : 

  Quote

  Quote

Bass, at least in my small waters, do appear to be heat seekers. I understand more and more why they are called sunfish. Very soon, as we approach the spawn, you'll start seeing the posts about large bass lying near the surface, (and un-catchable). These are heat seeking females.

You and I see eye-to-eye on the lion's share of this topic, with one small divergence.

I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but I do not visualize bass in pursuit of optimal conditions.

The direction in which to swim in order to raise or lower water temperatures hinges on a host of interactive variables.

Moreover, since bass are cold-blooded creatures we can assume that they're comfortable in all water temperatures

(given adequate oxygen). Instead, I believe that bass react in a predictable way when given water temperatures come to them.

If optimal conditions occur in 3 feet of water, fishing success will create the illusion that bass have migrated to the 3 ft contour line.

As it happens, over the course of an annual cycle, all water temperatures come to all depths in all parts of the lake.

In short, I believe that bass react, rather than pursue.

I'd be interested in your view on this

Roger

Exactly Roger  

Temperature is only part of the equation; bass live such a simple live that it goes straight over most anglers' heads.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Roger,

Agreed. I don't believe that the bass move great distances to seek "optimal" conditions. They get what comes to them. However, within a certain range I believe they will move to seek heat, and get in on concentrated prey. I believe this is the case on my ponds on those days.

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guest reply : 

While I am not as knowledgable as any of the fellas who have posted here I want to tell of some observation made last spring and this year, at ice out. These obsevations were made at Mauch Chunk and a strippin pit, with extermely clear water as the algae has not started to turn the water green at either body of water.; The observations were made on both and were the same

One week after ice out the water is barely 40 degrees a few bass sighted off the shore.

Water 48 degrees, in the shallows THE BASS ARE CRUSING BIG TIME. They seem to be crusing in groups of 3 to 5 and are just going all around certain areas, close to good spawning sites.

Here is what caught my attention the most, especially at the stripping pit , where there is a steep shore and we can see well into the water. On that side of the pit, with a trout style thermometer the water was as much as 4 degrees higher than the other side. There were the same amount of bass on either side, I was with another guy and we split up and compared notes. THE FISH ON THE WARMER Side were only cruising back an forth at distances no farther than 20 yards, just kept going back and forth THEY DID NOT GO TO THE OTHER SIDE WHERE THE WARMER WATER WAS.

The FISH ON THE COOLER SIDE, did the same cruised in small area and never left.

When they did go out of sight on either end it was going into deeper water than reappearing in about the sites they disappeared in.

I have no idea what this means but we spent a couple of days watching this. ANY CLUES TO WHAT THIS MEANS APPRECIATED>

PS There were a number of bass in each group that had some distinctive markings so we are sure the same bass were in an area 8-)

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Muddy, great stuff. Reads like my fishing journals! Observations are like puzzle pieces. Save em and eventually you may find where they fit into the bigger picture.

Here's my take:

As Roger and Catt mentioned bass seem not to go searching out optimal conditions. They react to what they have. And they can operate well in a variety of temperatures (But in a different gear so to speak).

In most good waters there are bass occupying many if not most areas. If there's food, they'll exploit it. Oftentimes we catch bass only in certain areas because those areas fit our style of fishing, or we hit fish there once and discovered something about the area. When we revisit it we have some knowledge to bring to bear on it, and the confidence that goes with it an area with "history" as I put it. Doesn't mean there aren't fish in other areas though.

The bass you saw:

As WRB had mentioned, water heats very slowly, and likely the bass groups on BOTH sides of your pit were cruising in 40F water. The 4 degree difference was skin deep. Try this: Take a temp at 3 deep and at 10 deep. In early spring there will likely be a 4 degree difference right there! I've standardized my surface readings at 6 deep. Thus, when I mention a surface temp, it's at 6. Eventually, and it takes a while, the water warms deeper and deeper. The surface temp readings I have are an indicator of the general seasonal warming trend, not the whole immediate story. I have to interpolate from the occasional temperature profiles I take. I've developed a feel for how quickly water masses warm, and how they are affected by cold fronts, heating days, and wind.

In my shallow ponds, I don't normally SEE shoreline related bass until the surface water has warmed further about the mid 50s, and especially by 60F. Many bass are already shallows related though, but holding further off, often in the mouths of the coves and flats that will soon warm further, and draw in both prey (bluegills in my ponds) and bass behind em. No, these are not all the bass in the pond, although on some small waters with only a single major cove or flat representing the majority of good habitat, I likely have a significant proportion of the bass right there.

Now, I don't follow temperature blindly. If I find a pond with 60 on one shore and 50 on the other, the temperature isn't going to stand alone. There has to be a food shelf, an area that will attract prey fish bluegills in my case. Also, cover is important the more convoluted the cover, the more prey fish the shore seems to hold. If the good habitat elements are non-existent on the warm side, I'll fish the cooler side, and adjust my presentation accordingly (see my post, Two Interesting Days... in the Western reports section of this site).

Bass are heat seekers (notably the females), but they don't follow it blindly either. It comes to them in areas that will support their needs -good habitat. And they respond with sheer CARNAGE!! That's the place to be!

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guest reply : 

Thanks Paul: Couple of more questions. These fish did not seem to be eating or doing any nest building just crusing back and fort, and we have spent a few hours watching them WHAT ARE THEY DOING? Do the fish in each group act like deer Males in one group and females in the other? These may seem a litttle dumb, but we are just trying to figure out whats going on.

As the water warms to around 52 we start seeing the spawing routines starting.

PS we can't take temps in 10 ft of water because all this is occuring in water 4 ft and under. We cant see from where we are what they are doing when they get out of sight into the deeper water, if we are in the boat we can watch them you can see clear to the bottom at this time of year, but we do not want to disturb what they are doing by putting the boat right on top of them.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

I know this is different from what you've probably read but, from my observations, I break the spring into 4 periods:

Initial Heat-Up bass are heat and food oriented.

Pre-Spawn bass are spawning site oriented

Spawn bass are pairing or paired, eggs dropping

Post-Spawn males are guarding eggs/fry; females are recuperating/feeding.

Males become spawning site related first or at least visibly so. They pile onto spawning shorelines roughly a month after ice-out (in my ponds). This is when I call the behavior pre-spawn. Males cruise in very loose groups (not seeming to be relating to one another) along spawning shorelines. They are often quite visible. They also may make premature beds, only to abandon them as conditions (water temps) fail.

Females are very different. When they come out of winter they are grouped tightly in groups of 3 to 8 (in my waters). They are quite recognizable at this time in three ways: They are larger than males, they have notably swollen pearly bellies, and they tend to be noticeably grouped relating to one another.

Groups of females appear visibly along shorelines occasionally well before the spawn. I've seen them as much as two months prior to the actual spawn. When I see them they are often cruising in a string I call these "parades". (I've also seen them simply holding, bunched up in a tight group. I assume they are just not cruising at the moment). Originally, I thought these parades were moon influenced, as I've seen them several times on full moons, and once just last spring, on a new moon. But I'm not convinced there's a real relationship there. I'm still watching. If you see such a group, I'd really like to know the date and water conditions of your sighting.

At a certain point these female groups break up and individual females may be seen sunning: They are either slowly cruising close to the surface, in the immediate shallows, or holding by some cover piece. Eventually, when conditions are right, they appear at spawning sites ready to spawn.

I remember reading, and then hearing, Kevin Van Dam talk about pre-spawn and post spawn females holding up off bottom, and often related to vertical cover like a fence post or tall stump. But he didn't elaborate. I now know what this is about. Heat is VERY important to female bass. And interestingly, in my ponds, it doesn't just end at post-spawn either.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Oh! I wasn't suggesting you take temps at 10 feet deep (unless you want to familiarize yourself with temp profiles). I was suggesting you take temps at 3 inches and 10 inches in early spring. The difference will likely surprise you. You'll probably get something like 48F at 3"(inches) and 44F at 10"(inches). Heat does not penetrate water (by direct conduction) very well.

So, think inches, then re-read that post!

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guest reply : 

GOTTCHA and thanks

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Catt reply : 

You're still only looking at part of the equation

What were the weather conditions?

Since you are talking pre-spawn & spawn then the weather will either be pre-frontal, frontal, or post frontal.

It is often stated that to have success during winter wait until the middle of the day when temperatures have warmed; then please explain this scenario.

Lake: Toledo Bend Reservoir

Season: Mid-winter

Surface temperature: Low to mid 40s

Time: Day break

Depth: 15'

Structure: Main lake point

Wind: North east 15 mph

Lure: Rat-L-Trap

After the sun rise the water temperatures came up 3 or 4 degrees the bite shut off so I move to the shaded side of the point where the temperature dropped 3 or 4 degrees and the bite picked up again.

This is a very common winter pattern on many Texas lakes; it flies in the face of every thing we hear about how temperature affects bass. First the bass should be seeking warmer water and secondly the bass should be to lethargic to chase bait.

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RoLo reply : 

There is yet another thermal phenomenon that tends to apply year-round to largemouth bass.

I should point out though that's it's most pronounced on shallow natural lakes where vegetation is the predominant cover.

During a typical warm-front there are moist winds out of the southerly hemisphere that tend to haze the skies and elevate water temperatures.

With each passing day of fair and stable weather, bass tend to suspend higher-and-higher within the weed bed.

There is no lateral movement, only an upward lofting within the same water column.

By the 3rd or 4th day of the warm-front, bass will generally be aggregated near the water surface,

above submergent weed beds rather than alongside the weed line.

Eventually a cold-front always moves in to end the gravy train. The winds shift into the northern hemisphere,

the air is cold and dry, hazy skies give way to crisp blue skies and water temperatures decline.

During a cold-front, most fisherman believe that bass migrate laterally into deeper water.

Remarkably, underwater studies conducted by In-Fisherman made an astonishing revelation (when Ron & Al were at the helm).

During a full-blown cold-front, largemouth bass simply sank to the bottom of the water column

with no lateral migration at all. Using underwater optics they saw bass with their noses on the bottom of the lake,

at the base of the densest available vegetation with their tails angling upward. These bass were in a torpor and virtually uncatchable.

Always bear in mind though that bass in a negative disposition feel no discomfort at all, it's no more uncomfortable than sleep.

Meanwhile, bass in deeper water with the benefit of a layer of water insulation,

may be unaware that the cold front exists (unless it's major and prolonged).

A typical scenario on the heels of a cold-front:

Two anglers spend half the day working hard in 4 feet of water but blank out.

They move to a spot in 8 feet of water and both fisherman make bass contact.

Now I dare you to tell those gentlemen that bass are aggregated in 4 feet of water.

One of them is sure to reply with a smug grin on his face:, "Whatever you say pal" :

Roger

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guest reply : 

Hey Roger: Did you learn that fishing those weed beds by the Long Pond Marina and on the shore side of Chapel Island, thats were I first noticed that :

 That is why on the Chunk as the warm front digs in , in the summer The best bite goes from jigs to t rigged plastic stik baits, And when a warm front is really entrenched the topwater late night summer bite is intense!

 The period around ice out, fronts and such seem to make no difference in bass movement, that seems to come later on much after the water stays over 50 degrees up here.

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RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Hey Roger: Did you learn that fishing those weed beds by the Long Pond Marina and on the shore side of Chapel Island, thats were I first noticed that :

That is why on the Chunk as the warm front digs in , in the summer The best bite goes from jigs to t rigged plastic stik baits, And when a warm front is really entrenched the topwater late night summer bite is intense!

Actually, the only lakes where it may not hold true are manmade impoundments. Particularly reservoirs with infertile soil or fluctuating water levels that prevent adequate plant growth. On these lakes, "wood" plays the major role followed by "rock" (but only by default).

  Quote

The period around ice out, fronts and such seem to make no difference in bass movement, that seems to come later on much after the water stays over 50 degrees up here.

I'll drink to that.

Again, that's especially true on impoundments where it's usually a bladebait game until at least 48 deg.

Roger

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Catt,

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the first part. You asked: What were the weather conditions? What/when are you referring to?

I'll take a stab at explaining winter bass activity, and then what you describe on Toledo Bend.

I'm not convinced that you have to wait for the middle of the day to catch bass in winter. As mentioned by others here, bass can be active and capable hunters in a full range of temps, over the course of the year. They acclimate to a given temperature and can be effective hunters. If you peruse the reports boards during winter you'll find many instances, from all over the country, of people catching a bunch of bass in really cold water often to their surprise. I know a guy who catches smallmouths on topwaters in winter in 40F water! People also catch bass through the ice. Some die-hards target them and say that the hard part is finding them since they are often bunched up.

Bass can feed in winter, and may feed if the opportunity presents itself. One scenario that I hear about every winter, and I'm guessing is what you may be referring to, is the crankbait bite that comes on in many waters in winter. How can a bass chase down a crankbait in mid winter?

A good explanation is that they do so because it's worth the effort. Winter is a time when many young of the year fishes weaken and die, and can be easy prey for metabolically slowed bass. Some years are better than others in offering up weakened prey fish. This pattern is especially common in reservoirs with shad, which commonly weaken and die during winter. The fishing can actually get better following real cold snaps because more shad suffer from cold shock. The bass may not experience much of a drop in temperature in their winter quarters but find weak shad easy prey.

Adding to the scenario is eagerness. Bass, with prey in front of them, and their target screen set, are more willing to chase at any temperature. As are bass in high competition with their cohorts. Winter bass are rarely alone.

In the specific case you mention: 15 feet of water, the sun, or shade, won't affect temperature at that depth. Something else is on going on. Unless you are talking about surface oriented fish, but even then the 3 or 4 degree temps you mention, are likely surface temperatures that are only skin deep. The sun, as mentioned earlier, cannot heat water much more than inches deep in a matter of hours and that's a summer sun! Where I live anyway, the winter sun is simply too low in the sky to heat the water much at all.

In general, as I understand it, winter is a time when bass seek temperature stability, usually provided by the dense water in the depths. I doubt the bass, even as close as 5 feet below the surface, experience any appreciable temperature changes. Once water hits about 40F, that's it. Any colder water will not penetrate it. If midday sun helps it's likely something to do with the visibility of lures, or a primary food chain event, invigoration, ...who knows? There is a reason, and it may not have anything to do with temperature changes of the bass.

In general, angling is often a very poor indicator of bass behavior too many variables. A real clinker in the process that could explain it is that to experience 4 degrees of warming in winter you would likely have to have a sunny day, or at very least bright day (you're in Texas after all). Could it be that when the sun pops up, and the water is at all clear, just casting a lure over fish near the surface would likely send em running?

What are your thoughts? I don't fish in the south. Exactly why I posted this temperature stuff to begin with. I'm here to learn. And I'm really appreciating your feedback very much.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Roger, I'd really like to get that IF article. Do you have any specifics on it?  Was it in the magazine? I'll go ahead and contact them and see if it's available. Any info would be helpful though.

What do you attribute the vertical movements you see to? Slowly rising surface temperature?

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Catt reply : 

For Paul:

During you observations what were the weather conditions?

Was the weather pre-frontal, frontal, post frontal or stable?

For Roger:

Was this phenomenon strictly thermal or is it a combination of weather conditions; barometric pressure, cloud cover, wind direction ECT.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Catt,

Four days in March were highlighted in those reports. Here are my weather descriptions from those reports, and my answers to your question in CAPS:

(March) 11th was a nice fairly rapid heating day, sunny and high in mid 60's. I watched water temps go from 47F to 55.5F in 3 hours. POST COLD FRONT (2nd day)

...

(March) 14th ended up a great day for this, ending up at a miserable 38F with rain and sleet by late afternoon. The pond was 49.5F when I started, warmed to 51F in three hours, until the front descended and it fell back to 49 and 47 (at different shoreline locations). COLD FRONT

...

March 20th, 2008

Brilliant sun and high temps (65F) forecast awesome heating day. I was gonna KILL EM!!! But Mother Nature threw me a curve; No confusion just another fascinating day. POST COLD FRONT (1st day)

...

March 25th 2008

Warm spell following good cold front. Monday was to hit mid 60's but a strong wind came in that made me decide to hold off a day. Tuesday was calm, and promised 65 and sun, which was realized. I was almost trembling in anticipation. POST COLD FRONT (2nd day)

...

Essentially, I target post cold front days in early spring, because of the intense warming trends they bring. In fact, I cheer on those cold fronts as they prolong the cold water period, and set up intense warming days.

In the post, Two Interesting Days... , I purposely chose a cold day, not a warming day, to fish, just to compare a known group of bass response to a non-warming day. It wasn't falling temps which I truly risk being skunked on. I thought the results were interesting. Yes?

On the 20th (post Two more Fascinating Days...) a good post frontal heating day was forecast, and happened, but a big wind rolled up the mass of cold winter water from the depths of the small lake and nixed the heating. The fishing was very tough. I know my waters very well, including some individual bass. The carnage I was hoping for, never set up.

The 25th (same water as the 20th) was the 2nd day following a cold front. I passed on the first day because of the forecast for high wind again, even though it would have been warm and sunny and a good heating day (if not for the heavy wind).

I'm self employed, so I can often pick my fishing days. I do so by weather forecast. In early spring I follow up on heating days, especially those immediately following cold fronts. I often choose the first day following especially if it's likely to be a very warm sunny day. If it's a bit cooler I may choose the second day. It can be good right up until the next cold front as each night tends to cool the shallows again (Colorado nights are always clear and crisp). I want rapid heating of the water. At this time of year the sun is high enough to do the job. The bass respond with CARNAGE!!  It's really something to see. Bluegills lying right on shore and bass ripping through em.

As spring progresses the ponds take on more heat and the intensity and concentrations lessen, as fish are less enamored with the immediate shorelines, as the depths begin to warm. Then pre-pawn has begun and it's another game altogether. The smaller males appear on shore in numbers and are substrate oriented. I'm after females though, and their groups begin to break up about now and then it's a search for isolated cover, and feeding bluegills. The bass remain very much heat oriented though.

The early spring warm-up period is a spectacular time, at least in small waters. And it's not just a Colorado thing; I did the very same thing in New York when I lived there. Although Colorado weather is more intense, and predictable. I get multiple shots (weekly in fact) at these events.

You know, as I get to dabble in the consistency of Colorado weather more and more, I'm becoming less enamored of magical things like moon phases and cold fronts. I still have more observing to do, but I think things are much simpler, as you suggest above. Or, at least the complexity lies in other places.

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Catt reply : 

Here's the question I asked: Water temperature & the seasonal affects on bass

Here's the answer: Both play a major role in how bass behave

Although bass adjust to changes in their environment, they're easier to catch during certain times of the year because they're easier to find and more willing to eat. That's why fishing can be so good in the spring and early summer and again in the fall. It's a mistake to say bass prefer one season or another or that they "like" a certain temperature range.

Bass are cold-blooded, so they are more active in warmer water because their metabolisms are faster; their bodies use more energy, so they need to eat more often. But that doesn't mean they aren't active at all in cold water, they just eat less when they're cold.

Water temperatures change as the seasons change, and although temperature and seasonal variations both play different roles in bass behavior, the two are linked. We all know that lakes, rivers and ponds are colder in the winter, hotter in the summer, and somewhere in between in the spring and fall, but do you know bass move as the seasons and temperatures change? That's why we catch them in shallow water sometimes and in much deeper water at other times.

I still don't fully understand how natural variations in weather and seasons affect fish. Nobody really has all the answers. But based on my lifelong experience as a bass angler and biologist, I have a good understanding of where to find bass as the seasons change and as the water temperatures rise and fall. They really don't move that far. It's more of an up and down movement. They go shallow and deep all within the same relatively small area as the seasons change, but they don't migrate from one end of the lake to the other.

For much of the year, temperature really isn't that important. Bass can tolerate high and low temperatures pretty well. I only pay attention to my thermometer when it's very hot above 85 degrees or very cold which is anything below 50. But if it's between 55 degrees and 85 degrees, temperature really doesn't affect bass behavior all that much.

Food is what really dominates the lives of bass; in the spring and fall, the "grocery store" is usually close to the shoreline and around cover like aquatic grass, rocks and docks. Small fish, crawfish, frogs and other creatures are most abundant and most active in shallow water, so that's where the bass will be. Oxygen is a limiting factor all fish need it to survive.

Ken Cook

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Ken,

Agreed, bass don't move over the length of a water body. We discussed that above. (Although telemetry has shown that there are always individuals that are incredible wanderers.)

And I agree that temperature becomes generally less critical (for anglers) outside of the coldwater season, excepting mid-summer. I see these here too.

But, what I believe I am seeing is a behavior in (most notably) female largemouth bass in the small waters I fish and observe. What I am seeing is heat seeking in females and it affects their location in the water column, at least in spring and into summer peak (early summer), until high temps send them, apparently, sulking. I believe I saw it again in early fall last year. I'm not putting in for an elk permit this year (a mind blower to my friends) because I'm dying to know if it appears again next September.

I'm suspecting this is related to their "metabolic engines" for lack of better at the moment, and should include males but I haven't been able to factor them in yet. I'm beginning to suspect this may play a more important role than atmospheric pressure, solunar, lunar, etc... . I realize that's a bold statement, and I've got more observing to do. But what I'm seeing (with my own eyes in my small shallow waters) is really intriguing.

I'm a die-hard angler, but I'm a naturalist first, and a former university researcher (in physiology and circannual rhythms). Small waters give me a literal window into the bass' world. I have more limited experience with big waters, so I'm curious how such seemingly important behavior could possibly manifest itself in large deep systems.

And I'm wide open to constructive criticism of my thinking, and welcome other's observations from around the country.

Agreed. Food rules! Food abets the prime directive to reproduce successfully.

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guest reply : 

I catch as many fish mid summer these days as spring and fall, all my bigger fish however do come in the fall. This happened once i moved away from the shore line and stayed away from where a lot of the other boats were fishing, I have confidence that vertical jigging will furthur improve things as i get more proficient in it.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Muddy: Yes, I see an offshore movement even in my small waters by summer too. Fascinating that it happens even on small waters. It seems to be an orientation to the main basin. Ralph Manns and I have had some discussion as to why this might be. He wonders, purely speculation (not research backed), if it isn't in part a result of early entrainment from when they were fry, and moving to open water to feed on zooplankton. Not sure what to do with that but it is interesting.

The mid-summer slump I see appears to be in part temperature related (surface temps >85F). But there may be more to it. This summer I'm going to spend some time on waters that might not heat so high, and see what comes. I can always hope for a Godsend -a cool summer! Interestingly, I've been in contact with a couple anglers in southern Canada and they claim they do not see this slump, and water temps don't surpass 75F.

But, what confuses me a bit, is Keith Jones' (Knowing Bass) research in a thermally graded tank that showed bass had no upper temperature avoidance! They continually sought heat in the laboratory. I'm wondering if the summer slump in natural systems has to do with oxygen levels, food availability (dense vegetation), and...?? This would likely show great variations across waters. Thus, I'm going to dabble in what possible variation there is here this summer. I don't have very deep water though. I'm eyeing an 18 foot deep lake for some of this, and I'll be comparing temperature profiles with this lake and my shallower summer slump waters.

So, Muddy, what are your good summer lakes like? Sounds like you are fishing deep, with jigging spoons?

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guest reply : 

Hey Paul: I fish Mauch Chunk primarily small 339 flood /water suppl lake. Lots of boulders and weed beds on one part the other shallow with tons of stumps and a lot of pads. When it really starts getting into the summer the water really gets over the 80 degree mark then those large boulders and the submerged weed beds ( Coon tail and some type of grass) all found in water around 10 to 18 feet really jump to life. Over those same weedbeds at night the top water bite is tremndous

  Of the many naturally occuring small lakes and ponds here, once they get warm, I belive the oxygen dissolved in the shallow ater is not enough for bass surival, but most of these have some kind of underwater run off or spring, the presence of very healthy and green weeds and a sudden drop in temp will usually tip off their location. EVEN THOUGH THE WATER IS VERY MUCH COOLER there  THE BITE IS WAY BETTER  than the rest of the lake at this summer time period

I am just starting to put all this together

Another great pattern that works in the dog days: We all know that before a thunderstorm, around these parts the falling barometer triggers insane bite. If a Tstorm drops a lot of rain and there is a lot of runoff, you know you can see where they are easily. A weightless t rigged worm of your choice really works I beleive the fresh water and wind helps the oxygen leveel and I have seen how the fish key in on those spots and devour anyting edible that wahes in

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Muddy,

One of my summer slump waters has a spring, and it's the hot-spot in that water during mid-summer.

I think what you are describing are what we all look for -the situations when the fish are on fire. It's a combination of proper conditions AND available food.

The summer T-storm thing: Is it the falling barometer, or the associated sky conditions and stable to warming temps that matter here?

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roadwarrior reply : 

On large rivers, temperature trends, barometric pressure, moon phases and other variables have no noticable impact. River fish are all about current, baitfish migration and the "general" temperature (hot or cold).

Species congregate and spawn at various times and those periods are important. However, the daily bite within any time and temperature frame is only efffected by water flow. Specific examples on the Tennesse River (north of Guntersville) are the congregation and spawn period for smallmouth bass and sauger in January and February (45-55 degrees); white bass and crappie currently (+/- 60 degrees) and in a few weeks, Kentucky bass (70+). However, when water temperatures vary outside these ranges, the concentration of fish is still present whether they are actually spawning at that exact time or not.

So, my observation is that the effects of many variables may come into play, but the only constant is water flow. When we have good water, we catch fish. Without current, you might as well stay home!

8-)

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guest reply : 

  Quote

Muddy,

One of my summer slump waters has a spring, and it's the hot-spot in that water during mid-summer.

I think what you are describing are what we all look for -the situations when the fish are on fire. It's a combination of proper conditions AND available food.

The summer T-storm thing: Is it the falling barometer, or the associated sky conditions and stable to warming temps that matter here?

There is a small lake close by, in a public park. On the west side of the lake is a mountain ( by Eastern standards, not like you guys out west) the T storms come from that direction most the time. The water is beat to death by trout fishermen, but it is full of some nice size bass. This lake turns on big time with an appoaching storm. There is a weather sataion there, and now my curisoity is up, about checking the falling barometer.

 I can tell you that before there is anynoticable change in the sky( To human eyes) as the storm is approcahing the fish are already on a stronger more aggressive bite.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Muddy, keep tabs on that. I'm going to venture a guess that the real effects are more immediate (clouds and temp trend) than early barometric pressure movement. But that's my guess at this point. Lemme know what you see. I'm not sure, for myself, I can discern barometric effects from sky and water conditions in terms of angling results, since sky and water conditions factor in SO heavily in terms of angling success.

roadwarrier,

I agree, current has an enormous effect on fish location, and activity I think in large part because of the advantages larger predators over prey fishes in current. But also because concentrations of activity are easier to discern for anglers. On the flipside, current also affects lure presentation enormously, and low slow water can be tough. (In general, water and sky conditions can affect angling presentation to the point that it can overshadow environmental effects, when one is sampling by angling.)

Water level itself (rising or falling) is very important to fish. It's one major factor that can cause bass to abandon nests, or incite movements to spawn (when other factors are met). This sensitivity to water level appears to be ingrained in many fishes. It's my holdout explanation for any sensitivity to the moon that might exist for freshwater fishes, although I'm leaning more and more towards skepticism here from a one-time moon believer! We'll see new moon coincides with spawn times here this year. I'll be watching closely.

My experience with warmwater rivers is limited at least with taking down any really useful information. But I have a lot of experience with coldwater stream fisheries, and this is where I came to where I am with bass. Temperature rules in trout streams, and not just during summer when temps are marginal. Food factors in huge of course, but hour by hour, I've come to believe, temperature is of enormous importance. But stream levels had a notable impact too, and I believe it factored into brown trout's nocturnal shift in late spring/early summer. However, interestingly, when surface water fed streams warmed and levels dropped and the browns went nocturnal, in nearby (as close as 100 yards in one particular case!) groundwater fed stream sections the browns were NOT nocturnal and rising freely during the daylight hours! Fascinating.

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RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Roger, I'd really like to get that IF article. Do you have any specifics on it? Was it in the magazine? I'll go ahead and contact them and see if it's available. Any info would be helpful though.

What do you attribute the vertical movements you see to? Slowly rising surface temperature?

The study team at In-Fisherman correlated "vertical positioning" with "stable weather" conditions.

It might be presumptuous to single out water temperatures as being solely responsible.

In any event, we do know a couple things for sure. We do know that bass are cold blooded creatures,

so water temperature tends to dictate their disposition (bass lack free-will).

We also know that warm fronts are accompanied by a "temperature uptrend".

You're not the first person to request that specific article, and now you've got me looking for it too.

Actually In-Fisherman published TWO reports: the first in an early Study Report regarding the vertical positioning of bass,

and another article several years later in their ad-laden magazine discussing lateral migration (both pre-Primedia).

The staff did telemetry tracking on several largemouth bass in a natural lake.

Their findings in this test-case (ex-reservoirs) effectively exploded Buck Perry's theory

regarding daily or twice-daily horizontal shuttles between deep and shallow water.

That's when I began to realize that bass are comfortable wherever they may be,

but react differently under different sets of conditions (meteorological and limnological).

In this same In-Fisherman article was a diagram showing the color-coded migration tracks of each largemouth bass.

For the most part, all lateral movement clung to the same depth line (contour line) essentially paralleling the shoreline.

Differently put, the bass were looking for a change in scenery without a change in depth.

There were also one or two renegade bass that swam across the lake from one shore to the opposite shore, but again

not in the interest of depth change. The study team offered no explanation for the random migration of those wayward bass.

  Quote

For Roger:

Was this phenomenon strictly thermal or is it a combination of weather conditions; barometric pressure, cloud cover, wind direction ECT.

I wish I could tell you

As you know Tom, warm-fronts are comprised of a bundle of similar circumstances,

while cold-fronts demonstrate an opposing set of conditions.

Although we understand the "thermal" implications of weather fronts, I'm sure we have a whole lot more to learn

regarding the impact of all other elements of weather (air & water).

Roger

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guest reply : 

Wow what a thread thanks to all the fellas this is why I don't watch TV Fishing shows too much, IT"S ALL HERE     and then some

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CJ reply : 

I agree Muddy! It may take me awhile to soak it all in... with the help of a dictionary.  :-/

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roadwarrior reply : 

  Quote

My experience with warmwater rivers is limited –at least with taking down any really useful information. But I have a lot of experience with coldwater stream fisheries, and this is where I came to where I am with bass. Temperature rules in trout streams, and not just during summer when temps are marginal. Food factors in huge of course, but hour by hour, I've come to believe, temperature is of enormous importance. But stream levels had a notable impact too, and I believe it factored into brown trout's nocturnal shift in late spring/early summer. However, interestingly, when surface water fed streams warmed and levels dropped and the browns went nocturnal, in nearby (as close as 100 yards in one particular case!) groundwater fed stream sections the browns were NOT nocturnal and rising freely during the daylight hours! Fascinating.

I fish the White River below Bull Shoals in north central Arkansas. The water coming through the dam is taken from the bottom of the lake and is a constant 52 degrees year-around. Although an occasional big brown is caught during the day, the majority of 10+ pound browns are caught at night. The only exception is after a shad kill when the trout lose all inhibition!

Current trumps all other factors on this river, too. Rising water is good, falling water is terrible.  If you can "catch the release" as generators are open and water moves downstream, fishing improves by at least a factor of 10X!

8-)

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Roger,

I'm familiar with the horizontal movement stuff. It's the bass rooted into the vegetation following a cold front I'd like to see.

roadwarrior,

Very cool. Thanks. My ponds don't fluctuate too much, but my small reservoirs do. I'll keep that in mind.

Catt,

Are you Ken or Tom?

Thanks All.

Those listening in. If you have observations along these lines you can share, as your season progresses, please do. No one person is going to figure this stuff out alone. I do think we can refine what we know a lot further.

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RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Roger,

I'm familiar with the horizontal movement stuff. It's the bass rooted into the vegetation following a cold front I'd like to see.

In searching for the unabridged article, I did find something in a 1978 In-Fisherman that addresses vertical positioning.

As my scanner isn't currently hooked up, I photograghed the page in macro mode.

Text>        http://64.226.208.65/scans/vertpos-text.jpg

Diagram> http://64.226.208.65/scans/verticalpositioning.jpg

Roger

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Roger,

Thanks so much.

I do wonder, How do they know what the bass are actually doing?

I have some thoughts and questions about supposed cold front behavior. Another post someday.

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Catt reply : 

Me? I'm Thomas (catt) Thibodeaux

The Email is from Ken Cook:

Graduate Oklahoma State University with a B.S. in Zoology he worked for the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation as a Fisheries Biologist.

1991 BASSMASTER CLASSIC Champion

Fourteen Time BASSMASTER CLASSIC Qualifier

Chosen among Top 35 Anglers of All Time by BASS in 2005

Named one of the top ten most fan popular anglers by Bassmaster Magazine.

Top 50 on B.A.S.S. All-time Money Winner's List

SIX-Time B.A.S.S. Champion

Three Time World Champion Angler

U.S. Bass World Champion, 1985

American Angler Grand American Champion, 1980

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HesterIsGod reply : 

I heard Doug Hannon say once that there was a test done where bass were put in a long tank. In one side of the tank was 40 degree water, and the water temp. gradually increased until it got to the other end and topped out at 90 degree water. No other factors like food or oxygen, just temp. The bass chose 82.5 degree water.

I personally believe that bass will not move across the lake for warmer water, but I always look for warmer water in the colder months not because that is where all the bass are but because those bass are mostly, but not always, a little more active than the bass in the colder water.

In the summer I absolutely love spots where a small creek or some sort of a spring or runoff comes in. I have personally found in my experiences of the last few years that in early summer when the bass are holding at or near where this current they always will hold at some sort of current break, being a laydown, big rock, whatever. But in the middle and late summer when the temps. get a little higher than 82.5 degrees they will begin to stray from these current breaks during midday and position themselves in the mid to heavy current of the creeks running in much like smallmouth do. So I am a believer that when the water surpasses 82.5 or around there the largemouths will stop seeking out warmer water. Since there metabolism is in high gear they just put themselves in the middle of this current and eat whatever happens to float/swim by. I do really well at this time with heavy jigs/ soft plastics that are heavy enough to not get swept away by the current.

My 2 cents on the issue.

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RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Roger,

Thanks so much.

I do wonder, How do they know what the bass are actually doing?

You're welcome Paul.

Well, we may not know what bass are doing, but their vertical position in the weed bed discloses a lot about their current disposition.

In the unabridged report, post-frontal bass were observed firsthand with their noses against the bottom

and their tail sections angled upward. Even without the article in front of me, and even though it was many years back,

it's not something you could ever forget (at least I won't). The position and attitude of bass during a warm-front

was described in detail, day-by-day (Day-1 - Day-2 - Day-3 - Day-4). Ditto for a cold-front. However, a full-blown warm-front

is generally living on borrowed time after around the 4th or 5th day. With each passing day, the sky grows hazier and hazier

due to the cumulative buildup of moisture, then around the 4th or 5th day a thunderstorm is generally in the offing,

the death knell of the warm front.

The wind direction ultimately shifts into the northern hemisphere and cold winds will usher in dry air and cloudless skies.

This takes us back to Day-1 of a cold-front with bass ON the bottom, and the beginning of a new vertical cycle.

I should indicate that vertical positioning is basically (but not exclusively) a summer pattern

that applies essentially to the vegetative zone (littoral zone).

It goes without saying, anyone who's been bass fishing for more than one season already knows that nothing is etched in stone.

Nonetheless, I've found that an understanding of vertical positioning as it relates to frontal conditions

continually unlocks important pieces of the ongoing "fishing puzzle"

Roger

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WRB reply : 

Bass are in sunfish family and water temperature controls nearly every aspect of their lives. The largemouth bass in Florida are a different specie than the bass located outside of Florida, unless transplanted. The reason FLMB didn't spread naturally beyond Florida is water temperatures north of that region drops below 45 degrees and the FLMB can't tolerate the colder water.

There is a lot of opinions stated about bass and water temperature. Try to keep in mind that the bass we a trying to catch have a prefered water temperature zone of 70 degrees*, if availble. During the winter 70 degree water isn't available many places where bass live, so they move to where ever the warmest water is that contains good levels (7 to 9 mg/L) of dissolved oxygen (DO) and food, because they must breath and eat. DO limits are somewhere between 3 to 12 mg/L for most fish.

During the summer largemouth bass will try to stay near the cooler 70 degree water temperature if possible and they still need to breath and eat, so they may move to warmer water if neccessary. The lower temperature that largemouth bass can survive in is about 40 degrees, the upper limit is about 85 degrees. The reason that bass can't survive colder water is the fact that at 39.4 degrees the water changes dramatically, the density gets lighter, the DO levels are too high for bass to servive, so the bass go deeper to stay in warmer water or locate springs that keep the water warmer. At 85 degrees the water doesn't hold enough DO, so the bass go deeper to find cooler water.

It doesn't matter where the largemouth bass are living, the water is the temperature affects them the same in California or Ohio.

The problem is today's bass fisherman look at their surface temperature guage to determine the lakes core water temperature. I don't know if anyone has ever swam in a lake, if you have you would know that the water gets cooler the deeper you go down. The bass don't live in the first foot of surface water, they live down deeper several feet where the water temperaure is confortable, the DO levels are good and food is availble.

You will see bass swimming near the surface as the water column is warming following the cold water period to seek the warmest water possible, they are sunfish and don't forget bass are a predator fish looking for food and hopefully our lures.

WRB

* ideal water temerature for bass survival when DO levels are between 7 to 9 mg/L.

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guest reply : 

Even though the lake I fish is only 339 acres, i have never witnessed this going to 70 degree water temp Migration. In the summer the bass in the warmer water areas are usually found in the same area and the bass in the cooler parts of the lake generally seem to stay on that side. I do not think what you are seeing is for every body of water.

  I think, I am not sure yet but as long as there is a good food source and enough oxygen , that temp becomes less important when stacked up with all the otehr factors.

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Raul reply : 

For me talking about temperature trends lacks of any value to almost everybody, down here water temp seldomly drops to the 60 's even in the middle of the "winter", it can rise up to 90 in the middle of the summer specially in the shallow lakes ( shallow means 45 ft at the deepest part ) most lakes I fish are deep and water temps remain in the 80 's well into the year, yeah, imagine yourself living in a place where the water temp is 80 in January ( jealous ?   ).

So for me it 's relatively easy:

1.- When can I expect the fish to be active ? all year round

2.- Even though the methabolic rate and the degree of agressiveness go hand in hand ( warmer water means more active fish ) water temp trend does not apply per se to my case,

3.- Weather patterns on the other hand do apply and have a greater impact on what I can expect when I go to fish.

4.- Full or almost full pool lakes, nice warm weather usually mean pretty lousy fishing, not because the fish aren 't active, because the level of human activity in the lake skyrockets; all them water skiers, jet skiers n ' pleasure boaters come out from their lair when the wether is nice and run up and down all over the lake at warp speed all day long !  >

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WRB reply : 

As long as the temperature is within the basses confort zone, the DO levels are good, the PH is OK and food supply is there, the optimum temperature isn't a primary factor. If the bass are there, then the conditions are right for them.

DO comes from 3 natural sources; aquatic green weeds producing oxygen during the day light hours (via photosynthesis), incoming aeriated water from a stream or river and wind generated wave action. DO is consumed by the same weed growth at night, decaying organic animal or vegetation and underwater DO breathing animals like fish. Man made oxygen pumps are sometimes added to lakes to help increase DO levels below the thermocline. Both fertilizers and pesticides deplete DO levels.

If the small lake is located near residential or commerical areas, then the man made affects should be considered.

Spring water is normally a constant 60 degrees, unless heated and has very low DO levels. Springs are usually surriunded by weed growth that adds DO and that is where the bass like to hold in both summer warm water and winter cold water periods, because the water tepmerature is confortable and aquatic life is good around a spring.

WRB

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Hester,

Yes, the low to mid 80sF is generally agreed upon as the "thermal preferentia" for LMB, from a bunch of studies.

First, let me say this about lab studies cause I can hear the grumbling already. Lab studies are useful in that they can offer glimpses toward what bass' limitations or capabilities are. My take home message is: Use them in your fishing to make your educated guesses, and then check em out. But don't assume too much going in. Natural systems are complex.

Something fascinating about bass comes from Keith Jones in his book "Knowing Bass". He found that LMB, over time, would keep re-acclimating higher and higher, until they hit the limit of his tank (not sure highest temp but it was above the accepted preferentia values). I found this fascinating. But it hasn't panned out into anything useful on the water, as yet.

I see a reduction in activity when my ponds hit the mid-80's. Not sure what to make of Jones' observations, beyond that natural systems are more complex: actual temperature distribution and fluctuation, oxygen, prey availability, and the fact that wild bass are mobile (what we're presently interested in short range vertical is what we've come to here mostly it seems).

There's another value used to assess the metabolic engines of fish that may help shed some light on some of what we see in the wild though the upper (and lower) avoidance temperatures. At a certain high temperature a given species must move away or die. These values are highly dependent on the individual fish's present acclimation temperature. Here's one example I have: A group of largemouth bass acclimated to 68F all die at 87F, 50% die at 84F, and none die at 77F. Now, rarely will you have bass in 68F water near 84F water in the wild, but that 16 degree difference KILLED half the bass! You can imagine that even a 10F difference might make a bass mighty uncomfortable. The take home is that there are limits to what bass can tolerate, at least within a period of time.

Interestingly, there's a growing body of research indicating that fish grow best by digesting meals at lower temps (below metabolic optimum). Further, this has been demonstrated in the wild, from sharks to salmon, through vertical water column movements: They feed high and warm and digest low and cooler. (Roger?? What do you think?) The latest IF magazine has an article showing this very thing in king salmon in the great lakes. I don't think they understood why the salmon were doing this.

Hester, your bass in river current observation is very neat. And I'll venture a guess as to what could be happening there: Heat challenged stream trout, (not at all uncommon in the many marginal streams and seasons throughout the country), approaching an upper temperature limit suffer oxygen stress and will move into stronger current in order to increase their oxygen uptake efficiency. They do this through what's called ram-jet ventilation, in which water can flow freely over the gills, rather than the trout having to pump it through. Thus, heat stressed trout move out of pools and into riffles. I've seen this myself in hot summers on marginal streams. I've never seen such a thing in bass, but, it's not unlikely. Bass can't go into too fast water because they aren't built for it. Just as different trout species have different capabilities in current: browns hold below the rainbows which can nose right up into the whitewater.

Of course it could just be a movement toward food, but the temperature values you've offered may indicate something more physiological in nature.

Phew! No my head doesn't hurt yet. It's my fingers. Hey if anyone (besides my wife) is wondering why I'm bothering to type so much, I'll say that discussions like this allow me to organize my thoughts better. That's how I keep from being overwhelmed by it all, and my head hurting. In my fishing I'm not just after the where and how, but the why. The why is more exportable to other waters and fish, and worth the effort.

Roger,

The problem I have with cold front stuff is that I for one have a hard time separating the effects of sky and water conditions on angling effectiveness from what might be real bass behavior. The cold front thing is a tough nut. I'm not sold on anything yet, but I do have some ideas.

Raul,

Excellent stuff. Temperature is more important where it matters LOL! Further north, that is.

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Raul reply : 

Paul, in my experience post cold front conditions have little to do with the sudden drop in air temperature, the water temp remains for practical terms the same than before the front, but the weather pattern associated to the passing of the cold front ( cloudless bluebird skies ) have a great impact, it 's the light penetration increase which causes the fish to either go deeper or bury into cover, it 's not that de fish develop a severe case of shutmouthitis, it 's just that most anglers continue to fish the same places at the same depth and the fish ain 't around there no more, in other words, instead of adapting their baits, presentations and locations they continue to fish when the fish aren 't there.

It 's a common mistake, they fish "the history" instead of fishing "the conditions". If the greatest bug is the light penetration then fish deeper or fish the conditions where the light penetration bug has less effect, like windblown areas or where there 's muddy water n 'such.

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WRB reply : 

Pual, bass are not suicidal, fisherman catch them and store the bass in surface temperature water pumped into the livewells. It's not uncommon for bass in the summer to locate near the thermocline in water in the 70's, in deeper large reserviors, that is the temperature they prefer and the surface water can be over 85 degrees. The thermal shock of water exceeding 10 degree differential will lead to high mortality rates, if the bass can't return to the cooler water temepratures. To acclimate to warmer or colder water that exceed more than 10 degrees, takes the bass several hours with the water temperature changing a few degrees in steps.

reference; Gene Giililand, biologist OK DWC

http:www.stse.tn.us'twra/fish/Reservior/blaclbass/livebass2.pdf

Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to keep things somewhat accurate. Doug Hannon bases his experiences on FLMB in Florida and his view points rarely agree with bass behavior outside of Florida.

For example it was stated that bass don't school to feed on prey fish. That goes agianst the experiences most bass fishermen. Bass that target threadfin shad schools on large reserviors are school fish. Big bass, out west, school to target trout in open water, it's a common tactic.

The eccosystem in a small natural lakes are different than a large reservior and that is why you need to classify the type of water the bass live in.

WRB

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guest reply : 

WRB: Thank you for adding I know very little about Bass Bio, I got the bug b/c when Glenn was asked for the most underutilized part of the site his answer was Bass Biology.

Bass however do not have schooling activity. They do sometimes exhibit traveling in groups, usually of the same size They do njot have organized shool activity: Like traveling and using organized escape patterns, reproducing in " school family " groups and oraganized feeding patterns, every bit of research I have read clearly states this

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thetr20one reply : 

Simple! Fish in all weather conditions. Cold raining,sleeting snowing, heavy wind ,bluebird days, hellish stormy days, ya got to be comfortable in all situations. Get good  set of raingear and you can fish in any weather!!!!!!

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Catt reply : 

WRB not trying to start anything but aint that contradictory

Water temperature controls nearly every aspect of their lives

As long as the temperature is within the basses comfort zone, the DO levels are good, the PH is OK and food supply is there, the optimum temperature isn't a primary factor

I'll refer back to Ken Cook's answer

For much of the year, temperature really isn't that important. Bass can tolerate high and low temperatures pretty well. I only pay attention to my thermometer when it's very hot above 85 degrees or very cold which anything below 50 is. But if it's between 55 degrees and 85 degrees, temperature really doesn't affect bass behavior all that much.

Food is what really dominates the lives of bass; in the spring and fall, the "grocery store" is usually close to the shoreline and around cover like aquatic grass, rocks and docks. Small fish, crawfish, frogs and other creatures are most abundant and most active in shallow water, so that's where the bass will be. Oxygen is a limiting factor all fish need it to survive.

Ken Cook

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HesterIsGod reply : 

  Quote

Hester, your bass in river current observation is very neat. And I'll venture a guess as to what could be happening there: Heat challenged stream trout, (not at all uncommon in the many marginal streams and seasons throughout the country), approaching an upper temperature limit suffer oxygen stress and will move into stronger current in order to increase their oxygen uptake efficiency. They do this through what's called ram-jet ventilation, in which water can flow freely over the gills, rather than the trout having to pump it through. Thus, heat stressed trout move out of pools and into riffles. I've seen this myself in hot summers on marginal streams. I've never seen such a thing in bass, but, it's not unlikely. Bass can't go into too fast water because they aren't built for it. Just as different trout species have different capabilities in current: browns hold below the rainbows which can nose right up into the whitewater.

That is a very good estimate at what is happening in my situation but unfortunately it is incorrect. The lake that I fish is not and was never stocked with trout.

I think, and I may be wrong, that these bass that are in the current make short runs there during the day to feed on the buffet of forage options that the creek yields. After they feed they go back to the nearby current break and rest there conservering energy and are pretty inactive. It seems pretty logical that the bass could just ambush the prey from the current break. However, I have read in many places that the "ambush prey" theory is very inaccurate. The bass bodies are built much more for stalking and chasing down prey rather than bolting out and actually suprise ambushing prey. That is exactly why I believe that these bass move into the middle of the creek and eat whatever they can and then go back and remain in active, digesting food.

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WRB reply : 

  Quote

WRB: Thank you for adding I know very little about Bass Bio, I got the bug b/c when Glenn was asked for the most underutilized part of the site his answer was Bass Biology.

Bass however do not have schooling activity. They do sometimes exhibit traveling in groups, usually of the same size They do njot have organized shool activity: Like traveling and using organized escape patterns, reproducing in " school family " groups and oraganized feeding patterns, every bit of research I have read clearly states this

From the time the bass are fry, they school. Adult bass tend to group by size is true. Have you ever witnessed how smallmouth bass hunt in schools? or largemouth in wolf packs of 50 or more big bass from 7lb to 12 lbs.? I ounce watched a school of LMB cross lake Havasu, a distance of about 2 miles, that was about the size of a football field or several thousand bass. I also caught 18 bass that all weighed over 10 lbs., within 1 hour on a major lake point that were feeding on trout, I would  say those bass were a school. largemouth bass are predators, so technically they don't school to confuse other larger predators from preying on them, once they are big enough to feed on other prey. That could be what you are interpreted as bass don't school for defensive purposes but they do school to feed on other prey fish.

I was refering to Doug Hannon's statement on bass behavior, not always being in concert with my experience, as noted. Bass apparently don't school in Florida's smaller lakes, other than staging for pre-spawn. They school where I fish however.

WRB

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guest reply : 

Bass are sunfish and they do not school. They do not have the same gentic makeup as their group member and again 3 important things that schools od: Oranized patterns of protection/escape, mating withing family groups and organized feeding. Florida or other wise, Oraganized feeding includes co operation among school members, bass do follow food source but they feed as individuals,there is no organiztion or srtuctured feeding.

  I am curious is it documented anywhere that yoiu caught 18 , 10 lb bass in one hour, that must have set the bassing world on it's ear!!

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Catt reply : 

Come up to Toledo Bend any time after April and I'll show y'all schooling bass by the thousands.

But you better bring plenty top water baits and a strong trolling motor  

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WRB reply : 

  Quote

Bass are sunfish and they do not school. They do not have the same gentic makeup as their group member and again 3 important things that schools od: Oranized patterns of protection/escape, mating withing family groups and organized feeding. Florida or other wise, Oraganized feeding includes co operation among school members, bass do follow food source but they feed as individuals,there is no organiztion or srtuctured feeding.

I am curious is it documented anywhere that yoiu caught 18 , 10 lb bass in one hour, that must have set the bassing world on it's ear!!

Not a common achievement;  Matt Nueman had a very similar day at lake Casitas in 2005, catching a similar number of big bass off one point within a short time period and I believe Matt did have bass fishing magazines publish his catch as he is a pro and needs the publicity. Lets agree that bass travel in large groups at times, you call them what you want, they a schools of bass to me.

WRB

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guest reply : 

Thats cool the question was: was your 18 X10lb catch in one hour ever recorded anywhere? Fishing off a deep point thats one fish every 3.3 minutes thats some fast fishing!

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WRB reply : 

  Quote

Thats cool the question was: was your 18 X10lb catch in one hour ever recorded anywhere? Fishing off a deep point thats one fish every 3.3 minutes thats some fast fishing!

Your point is? How long do you think it takes to catch hook and land big bass? You obviously have never caught big bass or several big bass during a feeding freenzy or you wouldn't ask the question. The longest time I have ever played a bass is about 2 minutes, usually about 1 minute. The people I wanted to know about the catch knew, plus my partner let a few more know. When you are trying to catch world record size bass the last thing you want is more boat traffic. Instead of questioning if I caught those bass, which is well known fact in the big bass circles, you should of ask where, when and on what lure.

WRB

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guest reply : 

I asked the question I wanted to. That means you had to catch 18 , ten pound bass in 18 consrcutive cast, That is Amazing. My point is that is a hefty claim, and if a guy told me he hit a 700 foot home run I would ask him if it was documented also. I did it in a polite fashion and that is the question i asked, thanks for you answer. I realizse that is is possible to fight a fish to the boat in 3 minutes of that size but you still need time to take it off, check rig, recast and retieve and wiegh them

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CJ reply : 

WRB,

I wanna know where? When? What Lure and presentation? Month? Time of day? Weather and sky conditions? Water depth? What bottom contour? Was there current envolved? Structure? How they were relating to the structure? Cover? How were they relating to the cover? Water temp? And since we're on the subject, water temp trend?

Seriously!!! I'm not doubting or calling you out. I really wanna know!!!

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WRB reply : 

  Quote

WRB not trying to start anything but aint that contradictory

Water temperature controls nearly every aspect of their lives

As long as the temperature is within the basses comfort zone, the DO levels are good, the PH is OK and food supply is there, the optimum temperature isn't a primary factor

I'll refer back to Ken Cook's answer

For much of the year, temperature really isn't that important. Bass can tolerate high and low temperatures pretty well. I only pay attention to my thermometer when it's very hot above 85 degrees or very cold which anything below 50 is. But if it's between 55 degrees and 85 degrees, temperature really doesn't affect bass behavior all that much.

Food is what really dominates the lives of bass; in the spring and fall, the "grocery store" is usually close to the shoreline and around cover like aquatic grass, rocks and docks. Small fish, crawfish, frogs and other creatures are most abundant and most active in shallow water, so that's where the bass will be. Oxygen is a limiting factor all fish need it to survive.

Ken Cook

I agree with Cook's statement. Except where I fish the shoreline is generally pounded by weekend fisherman and knowledgeable bass fisherman out west tend to fish more outside structure where the bstter size bass locate in deeper water just above the thermocline during the warm water periods. The bass tend to move up towards the shore at night when the boat traffic is off the water. Deep water offers the bass a sancturary, baitfish like threadfin shad and planted trout. Crawdads during the day tend to hide in deep rocky cover and move up at night and threadfin shad tend to move to wood cover at night, so the foloow thier food source. Lakes without fishing pressure could be different, just don't get the opportunity to fish private lakes often enough to know the patterns.

You may be reading into something that isn't there; if the water temperature is confortable for the bass, then it isn't a factor. The bass have located where they want to be and not forced to locate elsewhere due to water temperature issues. If the water temperature wasn't confortable, the bass won't be there. Hope that helps to clarify the statement.

I don't mind discussing the temperature issues, having a debate, everyone has a right to there opinions and hopefully the information can be helpful to readers. I have no time for and will not respond to personal attacks.

WRB

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CJ reply : 

WRB, I'm not one to attack anyone personally. I think you took me wrong. I was serious. Sounded like a great day! Anyway let's forget I asked.

Back to the subject at hand:

I feel, temp and it's trend has everything to do with bass activity and positioning in the water column, cover, and structure.

Why do you think bass often suspend on sunny days in the winter and prespawn?

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WRB reply : 

  Quote

WRB,

I wanna know where? When? What Lure and presentation? Month? Time of day? Weather and sky conditions? Water depth? What bottom contour? Was there current envolved? Structure? How they were relating to the structure? Cover? How were they relating to the cover? Water temp? And since we're on the subject, water temp trend?

Seriously!!! I'm not doubting or calling you out. I really wanna know!!!

Lake Castiac, May 1991 around 9:30A. I was tutoring a local pro tournament bass fishing freind in his boat how to fish jigs so he could catch a kicker once in awhile. I had a box of jigs and decided to take along a spare rod rigged with a customized Scrouinger jig as a backup.

We had jig fished fo 3 hours and were running up the lake to another location when I noticed 3 or 4 blue herons standing on a point trying to catch fish and a lot big splashes near them. We stopped and I made a cast toward the splashes and got into a non stop bite until I broke off the only Scrounger I had. I offered Gary to take the rod, but he refused and was happy to help net bass, release them and keep count.

The point has a saddle where the bass had pushed up a school of trout and trapped them. The surface water temperature was about 72 degrees and a month past post spawn. The point is surrounded by 150+ deep water. Light wind with high overcast, mild May weather conditions.

The original Scroungers had small 3/0 hook and I modified it with a long shank 6/0 worm hook tied to the cut off original hook. I was using a prototype rainbow trout sluggo on a 1/2 oz Scrounger head. This lure was a secret at the time.

WRB

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guest reply : 

Do you think that the for the Northern Strain of LMB this is because of their reproductive biology? I read somewhere for the Northern Strain, the females eggs have to get to a low temp in the winter in order to be fertile, someone help me out here if I read that wrong!! If they need to heat up for reproduiction, one of the stronger insticts perhaps this is why they suispend in the warmth of the sun, prespawn.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

  Quote

Paul, in my experience post cold front conditions have little to do with the sudden drop in air temperature, the water temp remains for practical terms the same than before the front, but the weather pattern associated to the passing of the cold front ( cloudless bluebird skies ) have a great impact, it 's the light penetration increase which causes the fish to either go deeper or bury into cover, it 's not that de fish develop a severe case of shutmouthitis, it 's just that most anglers continue to fish the same places at the same depth and the fish ain 't around there no more, in other words, instead of adapting their baits, presentations and locations they continue to fish when the fish aren 't there.

It 's a common mistake, they fish "the history" instead of fishing "the conditions". If the greatest bug is the light penetration then fish deeper or fish the conditions where the light penetration bug has less effect, like windblown areas or where there 's muddy water n 'such.

Raul, Excellent. Very much along my lines of thinking on cold fronts, at this point.

Hester,

I didn't mean there were trout in your water. I meant that the bass might be behaving similar to heat compromised trout, and taking advantage of ram-jetting. Just a thought.

Schooling:

As I understand it, bass don't school, in the strict sense. They commonly hunt in what are termed "aggregations" -like-size groups of 3 to ??? that are loosely coordinated. This is the most common hunting method used by bass -stalking and cornering prey in loosely coordinated aggregates. It is the way young bass hunt as soon as they start hunting as fry. In most waters, aggregates contain mostly smaller bass because this develops so early in life. As bass get older their groups get smaller by natural attrition. In most waters really big bass are virtually loners, in large part because there are so few of them. But, in some waters, notably in CA, I could see aggregates of big bass being larger.

Another reason for large numbers of bass being together -especially big ones: In many waters bass winter in large groups (I've often read about this for large reservoirs, and I see it myself here in my small waters too). This is why I believe groups of early-spring females are seen together, and females are the biggest bass in the pond. Every spring I see rather tight groups of females, as described earlier.

Technically (from a fish behavioral scientist's definition), none of these grouped behaviors seen in the black basses are considered "schooling".

Hey Muddy, go to bed! I'm signing out.

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Paul Roberts reply : 

Muddy, there are anglers that have proposed the idea that female bass actually regulate the development of their eggs behaviorally -by moving to colder or warmer water. Rich Zaleski was a proponent of this at one time. I've tried to run tis down, through the scientific literature and through knowledgeable anglers. I'm sure there are fish reproductive physiologists out there that could speak to it, but I haven't found anything or anyone as yet.

It does appear that temperature is the final "straw" that brings female bass to the beds, so the idea is at least reasonable.

Ok, goodnight.

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RoLo reply : 

This thread was slowly beginning to take shape, but then when I returned last night I noticed that it grew a couple pages

and the continuity had gotten a little ragged.

PAUL,

Early-on you mentioned that bass are "sunfish" which might explain their fondness for shallow water, sunlight and heat.

You were onto something then. But now you're saying just the opposite, that bass are not affected by the cold air in a cold front,

but move to avoid the sunlight. Never forget, bright sunlight without an arctic front will not create the same negative fishing conditions associated with a cold front, you need that cold air.

I've decided to skim over a few key points that have gotten skewed or obscured.

1) Sunlight does not bother the eyes of bass, that's why Nature didn't supply them with eyelids. When bass go underneath a dock, they're not hiding from sunlight, they using the shade to conceal their broad outline (ambush). Bass, especially large bass prefer the bright midday sun for optimal visibility.

2) Althouth sunfish do not actually pursue sunlight or heat, they enjoy the solar gain and bright light a warm-front will bring to them.

Again, sunny middays are deemed the best time of day to boat a trophy bass.

3) Water doesn't cool off as fast as air, but that doesn't mean it doesn't change the temperature of water (air's the only thing that does)

Cold-fronts are accompanied by stiff winds that drive the cold air temperatures into the water surface via wave action. Due to the greater weight of the chilled surface water it promptly trickles down until it reaches its depth of equilibrium (equal water density). The process is quickly repeated, the new surface layer is chilled, then trickles down to its equilibrium depth.

Bass ensconced in very deep water (rare in Florida) may not be affected for a day or two, and if it's just a minor cold-front, they won't be affected at all

4) To say that "a bass is a bass" no matter where you are is invalid. As you would expect, the optimal temperature range for Florida-strain bass (75 to 85) is about 10 deg higher than the optimal range for a northern-strain bass (65 to 75).

This differential is the cause of many arguments.

5) Given adequate oxygen, Bass feel no discomfort in any water temperature, therfore they never have to relocate on the basis of water temperature. I seriously doubt that bass would even have a clue as to which direction to swim. The direction to warm water and cold water is a moving target, and it changes according to a host of interactive variables.

6) More important than the static temperature value is the direction of temperature change, which will determine the disposition of bass.

This is one more reason why it's not logical for bass to seek a given temperature, which would be analogous to chasing it's own tail.

.

7)Technically, largemouth bass are not schooling fish such as crappies and walleyes. But they do gravitate to the same foodshelves, jump coves and staging areas, so they're commonly found in loose "aggregations". Typically, the smaller the bass the larger the school, and the larger the bass the smaller the school. This is population dynamics and is based on simple math. With each passing year, the population of the year-class diminishes. In fact, the very largest bass in the lake will often be a solitary fish (last of the Mohicans) or may belong to a small pod of 2 or 3 bass representing all that's left of that year-class.

Roger

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WRB reply : 

4. Bass is a bass. The statement is valid, you can't compare a FLMB to a NLMB they are as different as a spotted bass and smallmouth bass.

Someday we will have separate records for each; FLMB are a different specie.

Having had the opportunity to bass fish in nearly every state and country that has bass populations for over a 40 year period, IMO bass are bass where ever you go, that is to say northern LMB behave the same in Arkansas as they do in Arizona. I have caught LMB in lakes north of Lake Of The Woods in Ontario Canada, that the locals didn't know they were in that lake. Once fishing for smallmouth, came across a secondary cove with a weed bed that looked like largemouth water and they were there, spawning in July. That is the furthest north that I have caught a NLMB.

continued...

in regards to perfered water temperature, that is dependant on the environment or lake classification where the specific "bass" (FLMB, NLMB, SM or Spotted) is located. Within their natural range you may be able to state a prefered summer or warm water range. The winter range is simply the warmest the bass can find with good DO levels and and prey. The pre-spawn, spawn cycle are definately tied to water temperature. If LMB spawn too early in cool water, less than 60 degrees, the eggs take to long to hatch; about 12 days, for the male bass to protect from eggg eaters, too warm; above 70 degrees, the bass must compete with bluegill (bream) for spawning sites and protect the eggs that only take 2 days to hacth. Both too cool and too warm of water relates to low spawn recruitment. The warm water or summer periods is open to available prey, confort zone/water temperature/sanctuary, prey sources are abundant. The fall transition again tied to cooling water temperatures and climate.

To state the FLMB prefer 75 to 85 degrees doesn't take into account for FLMB transplanted into the northern LMB southern range; California and Texas for prime examples. California reserviors that have a good FLMB population rarely have surface water temperatures that exceed 80 degrees and the bass go deeper during the warm water period to seek the thermocline where the water is closer to 70 degrees. I don't know what Amistad, Falcon, Fork and the other Texas lakes core water temperature are, or where the FLMB prefer to locate during the warm water period. The pre-spawn and spawn are very similar to CA.

WRB

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Paul Roberts reply : 

  Quote

PAUL,

Early-on you mentioned that bass are "sunfish" which might explain their fondness for shallow water, sunlight and heat. You were onto something then. But now you're saying just the opposite, that bass are not affected by the cold air in a cold front, but move to avoid the sunlight. Never forget, bright sunlight without an arctic front will not create the same negative fishing conditions associated with a cold front, you need that cold air.

Roger,

I'm being cursory with cold fronts here in this thread, even though it is certainly relevant, for several reasons:

I've got more observing to do, and because there is so little out there in the scientific literature that offers anything definitive even in terms of observations. I've read the accounts of divers and telemetry studies, and the results are so inclusive. Angler's observations and discussions I'm a bit skeptical of simply because angling is not always a very good sampling method in terms of fish behavior, and I'll clarify, in one way, shortly. Further, and interestingly, this seems to be an angler's issue, and not of interest to icthyologists of any sort, as far as I've discovered. Doesn't mean that it's invalid, but that is interesting. Maybe I'm just overlooking appropriate research.

The observations you mention where bass were observed with heads buried in vegetation and tail up following a severe cold front would be the most definitive, or better, most intriguing observation going. But I need some real verification on this, from the horse's mouth so to speak. Who did this, when, and what were their records like. No reflection on you, please. I have great respect for your knowledge and thinking skills they are quite apparent. This observation would be huge, if it indeed was the way it was portrayed by the writer.

I fully realize the seeming contradiction, but I'm not ready to go into it here. Believe me, cold fronts are on my mind, and I've some ideas about how it works, but I need more observations to wrap it up or discard it.

As to my agreement with Raul: I don't believe that sunlight is the entire answer -at a physiological level. I do believe though that that brilliant sun so greatly affects angling effectiveness that it obscures possible behaviors in the bass. Thus, I agree with Raul , very much, from an angler's perspective, but there is likely more to it from physiological/behavioral and ecological perspectives.

Very likely, a sufficiently COLD front could put bass down in a physiological manner, as was described in that lone IF article. But, how would an angler (without optics or diving) know given the following:

Start a thread asking, How do I deal with cold fronts? I'll save us the time and summarize:

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

What do all these things have in common?

These all are answers that would fit (like a glove) how to present to spooky bass under bright sun. Admittedly, though, with the possible exception of heavily stained or muddy water.

Where I am in Colorado, I am blessed with very consistent weather patterns: clear nights and brilliant sun in the morning giving way to overcast every afternoon. The response by the bass to lures is almost a 180.

Every morning I'm fishing under brilliant blue skies, and in my shallow waters I can see how the bass respond to my presentations. Here's what happens on EVERY cast: The lure flies through the air and the bass (and sunfish) bolt! So I cast VERY high to avoid this. Then the lure, and line too(!), land on the water they bolt! The line cutting the water on the retrieve causes them to bolt (only in clear water). Interestingly, I've devised ways of catching at least some of these fish they are catchable if you could get a lure near them.

Now, what might one do? Here are some good answers:

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

I have to wonder, if what is deemed post cold front behavior (in a lot of cases) could be largely explained by the above? Thus, my agreement with Raul.

Here's where I agree with you, but it's a matter of degrees (no pun intended). The magnitude of the cold front, of course, is a real issue a front that can actually affect the thermal mass of summer water, APPRECIABLY. Unfortunately I have virtually no good data on this, nor have I seen any.

What would really help is if I could get some guys to start taking some temps for me in specific instances. I've attempted to get on-line anglers to do some observing in the past but it hasn't amounted to much, so I'm reticent to ask. First, you might ask, Who the hell are you anyway some kind of crackpot? Second, it's time away from fishing but not a lot. But I'll put it out there anyway:

I could use temperature profiles in mid-summer (surface temps 78F or higher) from surface to bottom every time you go. If we're lucky we'll hit some post-frontal days (LOL), and see what happens to the temps and how far they penetrate. If you're game, shoot me a PM and we'll arrange something.

Your specific points and my responses:

1) Sunlight does not bother the eyes of bass, that's why Nature didn't supply them with eyelids. When bass go underneath a dock, they're not hiding from sunlight, they using the shade to conceal their broad outline (ambush). Bass, especially large bass prefer the bright midday sun for optimal visibility.

AGREED.

2) Althouth sunfish do not actually pursue sunlight or heat, they enjoy the solar gain and bright light a warm-front will bring to them.

AGREE WITH SECOND PART.

Again, sunny middays are deemed the best time of day to boat a trophy bass.

I'VE READ THAT FROM DOUG HANNON'S BOOK.

3) Water doesn't cool off as fast as air, but that doesn't mean it doesn't change the temperature of water (air's the only thing that does)

Cold-fronts are accompanied by stiff winds that drive the cold air temperatures into the water surface via wave action. Due to the greater weight of the chilled surface water it promptly trickles down until it reaches its depth of equilibrium (equal water density). The process is quickly repeated, the new surface layer is chilled, then trickles down to its equilibrium depth.

Bass ensconced in very deep water (rare in Florida) may not be affected for a day or two, and if it's just a minor cold-front, they won't be affected at all

I BELIEVE YOU. BUT I NEED TO SEE IT MORE DEFINITIVELY FOR MYSELF, AND I NEED NUMBERS.

4) To say that "a bass is a bass" no matter where you are is invalid. As you would expect, the optimal temperature range for Florida-strain bass (75 to 85) is about 10 deg higher than the optimal range for a northern-strain bass (65 to 75).

This differential is the cause of many arguments.

GUILTY OF BIAS. I UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT HAVE NEVER SO MUCH AS SEEN A FLORIDA LARGEMOUTH. I'M WORKING WITH NORTHERNS AND TAKE POSSIBLE FLORIDANUS INFO INTO ACCOUNT -A SUBSET. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT OTHER DIFFERENCES/SIMILARITIES APPEAR. ONE THING I'VE READ IS THAT FLORIDANUS' RESPOND MUCH MORE NEGATIVELY TO COLD FRONTS THAN NORTHERNS, WHICH MAY REPRESENT MY NIT-PICKING OVER THE INTENSITY OF A GIVEN FRONT.

5) Given adequate oxygen, Bass feel no discomfort in any water temperature, therfore they never have to relocate on the basis of water temperature.

I DON'T AGREE. FISH ARE KNOWN TO MOVE TO SEEK TEMPERATURE, AND I CAN SEE BOTH VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL MOVEMENTS BEING A PART OF THIS IN A BASSES LIFE.

I seriously doubt that bass would even have a clue as to which direction to swim. The direction to warm water and cold water is a moving target, and it changes according to a host of interactive variables.

PHYSIOLOGISTS HAVE DISCOVERED, AT A NEURAL AND BEHAVIORAL LEVEL, HOW BASS AVOID DISCOMFORT.

6) More important than the static temperature value is the direction of temperature change, which will determine the disposition of bass.

AGREED.

This is one more reason why it's not logical for bass to seek a given temperature, which would be analogous to chasing it's own tail.

NICE ANALOGY BUT I DON'T AGREE. AGAIN, MOVEMENTS MAY NOT BE LONG, (BUT CAN BE), BUT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF MOVING TOWARD AND WAY FROM HEAT.

7)Technically, largemouth bass are not schooling fish such as crappies and walleyes.

AGREED.

But they do gravitate to the same foodshelves, jump coves and staging areas, so they're commonly found in loose "aggregations".

AGGREGATION IS MORE THAN JUST HAPPENSTANCE, IT CAN BE COORDINATED, BUT MORE LOOSELY THAN WHAT'S DEEMED TRUE SCHOOLING, AND DEVELOPS FROM THE VERY BEGININGS OF A BASS' HUNTING.

Typically, the smaller the bass the larger the school, and the larger the bass the smaller the school. This is population dynamics and is based on simple math. With each passing year, the population of the year-class diminishes. In fact, the very largest bass in the lake will often be a solitary fish (last of the Mohicans) or may belong to a small pod of 2 or 3 bass representing all that's left of that year-class.

WRB, good stuff!

---

CJ reply : 

I may be getting to technical but it looks like you guys can handle it.

If a "bass is a bass" then I got a few questions.

1. Why do they spawn in different waves that stretch out over a two month period?

2. Why is it often that bass are caught at various depths on the same day? Expample: I've caught a 5 lb. 7 oz. bass two years ago on a chug bug in 4 ft. of water in July. The same day I caught another 5lb. 1 oz. bass 20 ft. deep on a jig.

3.Why do some tend to suspend while others hug the bottom?

4. Why do some bass choose to stay shallow year around and some look for deep water?

I guess you mean biologically a "bass is a bass"? To me saying a bass is a bass is a shallow statement. On my home lake never are all of them doing the same thing.

---

Paul Roberts reply : 

CJ,

Yup, biologically speaking, which does say a lot. But, be glad you have all those options available to you! You'll see a lot of those options, and more, as you travel to new waters.

I'd love to address each of your points, but I'm running out of time here. This topic sure encompasses a lot of ground. Maybe I'll get a chance later on this evening, or others will pick it up.

I'm going to be out of town for a week, flying out tomorrow AM.

---

RoLo reply : 

Nice post Paul,

We all learn from everyone else, but what we do with that mountain of data has a way dividing us into different camps.

  Quote

Every morning I'm fishing under brilliant blue skies, and in my shallow waters I can see how the bass respond to my presentations. Here's what happens on EVERY cast: The lure flies through the air and the bass (and sunfish) bolt! So I cast VERY high to avoid this. Then the lure, and line too(!), land on the water they bolt! The line cutting the water on the retrieve causes them to bolt (only in clear water). Interestingly, I've devised ways of catching at least some of these fish they are catchable if you could get a lure near them.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that it's 'sunlight' per se that spooks bass. On the contrary,

I believe that bass welcome sunlight because it enhances their vision underwater.

Instinctively, bass probably sense that they too are more visible and tend to locate on the edge of shade

peering over sunlit water. If catching bass is more difficult in sunlit water,

that's testament to the fact that sunlight is a benefit to bass. Bass in clear sunlit water enjoy maximal vision

and will react to everything they see. We call that behavior spooky,

but bass call it the cat's meow (we're at a disadvantage, not bass).

  Quote

Now, what might one do? Here are some good answers:

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

I agree with that entire list, and might only add the use of neutral colors, nothing gaudy.

But why are we toning down our delivery if sunlight is the culprit? Sunshine does not cause torpor or indifference,

oppositely solar gain enhances the activity of sunfish (all life). On the other hand,

a downtrend in water temperature can and will cause a downtrend in bass activity and bass disposition.

It is a matter of degrees, and a short-lived cold-front with a small temperature differential (difference in air temp and water temp)

will barely affect bass even in shallow water. Conversely, bass in deep water (rare in my parts) won't be affected at all by most cold-fronts,

save a prolonged cold-front with a sharp temperature disparity.

  Quote

4) To say that "a bass is a bass" no matter where you are is invalid. As you would expect, the optimal temperature range for Florida-strain bass (75 to 85) is about 10 deg higher than the optimal range for a northern-strain bass (65 to 75).

This differential is the cause of many arguments.

GUILTY OF BIAS. I UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT HAVE NEVER SO MUCH AS SEEN A FLORIDA LARGEMOUTH. I'M WORKING WITH NORTHERNS AND TAKE POSSIBLE FLORIDANUS INFO INTO ACCOUNT -A SUBSET. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT OTHER DIFFERENCES/SIMILARITIES APPEAR. ONE THING I'VE READ IS THAT FLORIDANUS' RESPOND MUCH MORE NEGATIVELY TO COLD FRONTS THAN NORTHERNS, WHICH MAY REPRESENT MY NIT-PICKING OVER THE INTENSITY OF A GIVEN FRONT.

I was born in New Jersey and the lion's share of my bass fishing took place in Jersey, New York and Ontario.

I've also lived six years in Georgia and going on ten years in Florida.

Bottom line, I've been fortunate in being exposed to northern-strain, Florida-strain and intergrade bass.

Aside from the obvious difference in growth rate, there's a significant difference between the attitude and behavior

of northern-strain and Florida-strain bass, and it's not illusory, it's blatant.

  Quote

5) Given adequate oxygen, Bass feel no discomfort in any water temperature, therfore they never have to relocate on the basis of water temperature.

I DON'T AGREE. FISH ARE KNOWN TO MOVE TO SEEK TEMPERATURE, AND I CAN SEE BOTH VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL MOVEMENTS BEING A PART OF THIS IN A BASSES LIFE

I'm not at all surprised, because I'm pretty much on my own upholding this premise.

But just as you're from Missouri on the ramifications of a cold-front, I've yet to be convinced that fish experience any discomfort

stemming from water temperature alone. Human beings are warm-blooded animals and need to maintain a body temperature

of 98.6 deg F otherwise die. To warn us that we're getting out of safe range our body will produce discomfort (too hot or too cold).

In stark contrast, bass have no body temperature to maintain, so there's no need for a warning system that causes discomfort.

While ice-fishing on Budd Lake, New Jersey a yellow perch jumped out of the basin we shaved in the ice to store our caught fish.

When I finally noticed the perch it was apparently dead and frozen to the ice. I had to kick the fish a couple times to break the frozen hold.

To my amazement, about the 10 minutes later that perch was swimming in the basin,

looking none the worse for wear.

           However, when water temperatures reach an extreme they're usually accompanied by other phenomenon.

For instance, even though bass in coldwater may feel no discomfort, frigid water temperatures reduce

their metabolism and digestion and depress their aggression, a time when a dead minnows may be more successful than a live minnow.

Torpor causes no discomfort, it's no more painful than slumber. At the opposite end of the spectrum is hot water,

and though it may not cause discomfort per se, warm water has a lower saturation point for dissolved oxygen.

In Florida at least, oxygen is usually not a problem in water under 90 degrees, in any case, oxygen-deprivation is a secondary stressor

exacerbated by warm water, but the warm water per se causes no discomfort.

I'm not aware of any ichthyological study confirming the migration of bass triggered solely by thermal discomfort

that was totally unrelated to other stressors such as oxygen-deprivation.

I have read the results of poorly conducted studies that would leave the reader with that impression,

but none that you couldn't easily poke holes in.

I'll close with a little something I've learned about 25 years ago,

and it's done a pretty decent job of keeping me out of trouble.

It's founded on water temperature trend, but gives the angler a clue as to the current direction of that trend.

POSITIVE

Air temperature greater than the water temperature, regardless of the value in degrees.

NEGATIVE

Air temperature lower than the water temperature, regardless of the value in degrees.

Roger

---

FishinDaddy reply : 

WOW!

Ok but I have some questions....

Florida strain LMB.  They live, for the most part, in lakes that average 6' deep at most.  There are only a few waters in Fl that have over 30' depth and those are reclaimed phosphate pits or the occasional sink hole/spring.  And the temperatures on the surface vary from (observed) low 60s to 90+.

1) How much temperature variance can you possibly have in 6'?

2) If they do not move laterally and only vertically in the water column, can they actually get relief?

3)  Is dissolved oxygen content not the most important factor affecting their location in the water column?

4)  What do they do when we have a 10* drop in surface water temperature in a 24 hour period. (sunshine showdown 08).

5)  How does the barometric pressure figure into the equation?  With a dramatic drop in air temperature cause by a severe cold front it is usually accompanied by a drop in the barometric pressure.  How does this affect fish location?

My ten largest fish in the last year all came out of 3-4 ft of water.  About 1 a month over 4 lbs with an 8.3 in August, 10 am, clear blue sky, 85* water temp.

Lee

---

RoLo reply : 

  Quote

I may be getting to technical but it looks like you guys can handle it.

If a "bass is a bass" then I got a few questions.

1. Why do they spawn in different waves that stretch out over a two month period?

The spawning season in Florida can span a period entailing up to half a year (December through May, some years into June).

In my opinion, the spawn is not tied to water temperatures as most believe, but is tied to photoperiod similar to the vegetable kingdom.

  Quote

2. Why is it often that bass are caught at various depths on the same day? Expample: I've caught a 5 lb. 7 oz. bass two years ago on a chug bug in 4 ft. of water in July. The same day I caught another 5lb. 1 oz. bass 20 ft. deep on a jig.

That's the best question of all, and one that fishermen prefer to ignore.

Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I don't think we should picture any lake with bass shuttling back-and-forth between shallow and deep water.

Instead, we should picture a lake with bass simultaneously found in all parts and all depths above the thermocline/oxycline.

The most catchable bass are those who happen to be located where current conditions are most suitable.

In due time, optimal fishing conditions visit every part of the lake. Alas, if all your bass came from the 6-foot contour line

that's sure to create the illusion that all bass migrated to the 6-foot depth line (well maybe...or maybe not)

  Quote

3.Why do some tend to suspend while others hug the bottom?

Hey, nobody likes a wiseguy

As opposed to popular view, I think that the suspension phenomenon dovetails into my belief

that bass resist depth change. Bass have a swim bladder (not all fish do) and that would indicate that they were not designed for frequent or rapid depth change. If a bass lying 6 feet of water begins to punch out across the lake, he'll remain suspended until he rejoins the bottom in 6 ft of water.

Suspended bass are notoriously difficult to catch, and that may be largely due to their preoccupation.

4. Why do some bass choose to stay shallow year around and some look for deep water?

Some bass are just stupid I guess ;D

I don't know the answer, but it's a marvel of Mother Nature.

She has ways of gleaning maximal utilitization from every lake.

Roger

---

RoLo reply : 

  Quote

WOW!

Ok but I have some questions....

Florida strain LMB. They live, for the most part, in lakes that average 6' deep at most. There are only a few waters in Fl that have over 30' depth and those are reclaimed phosphate pits or the occasional sink hole/spring. And the temperatures on the surface vary from (observed) low 60s to 90+.

1) How much temperature variance can you possibly have in 6'?

The greatest thermal variance is in the uppermost layer (epilimnion),

which could possibly range from the high 50s in the panhandle to nearly 100 deg in the Everglades.

In Canada the hypolimnion budget is 39 deg F but in Florida it's usually closer to 65 deg F.

  Quote

2) If they do not move laterally and only vertically in the water column, can they actually get relief?

In my opinion, bass don't seek temperature change and don't understand relief, but most anglers take exception to my view.

When bass are shutdown by water climate, I picture them slowly losing altitude in the weed bed, finally ending up on the lake floor,

it's physiological. From all appearances, only time provides relief.

  Quote

3) Is dissolved oxygen content not the most important factor affecting their location in the water column?

Under normal conditions, oxygen shouldn't be a problem and usually isn't.

About 25 years ago the fishing community went through an "oxygen meter" craze.

During that fad every article you picked up espoused the importance of dissolved oxygen content.

Like most crazes, that one too faded into oblivion. When a body of water is stressed by low oxygen content,

bass are forced to remain shallow, because deeper water contains less dissolved oxygen, not more.

  Quote

4) What do they do when we have a 10* drop in surface water temperature in a 24 hour period. (sunshine showdown 08).

I don't know what they do, but I'll be home trying to recode my stock-timing model ;D

From what I've read and heard, there's no shortage of anglers

who can catch bass after a major cold-front, but I'm not one of them.

  Quote

5) How does the barometric pressure figure into the equation? With a dramatic drop in air temperature cause by a severe cold front it is usually accompanied by a drop in the barometric pressure. How does this affect fish location?

In my view, barometric pressure is purely coincidental to other more important events (not a popular view).

Let's break it down: The difference between a normal barometer and a low barometer is about 0.77 lb / sq in.

If a bass moved just 1.8 ft upward in the water column, the drop in body pressure would be identical

to a major swing in barometric pressure. Somehow I can't force an interest in barometric activity.

Lois and I have hauled ling and whiting from water over 100 feet deep.

When they made it topside, their eyes were bulging out of their head and their stomachs were in their mouth.

Now THAT'S pressure

  Quote

My ten largest fish in the last year all came out of 3-4 ft of water

For the natural lakes in Florida, your most productive depth range is right on the snot. But not if you were fishing the TVA impoundments.

  Quote

8.3 in August, 10 am, clear blue sky, 85* water temp

If you asked me to guess, I'd have come pretty close.

I would've said between noon and 3 pm (max solar gain).

As for August, 85 deg and clear blue skies, that's a broken record

Lee, I'm mad, we've got a shootout in progress and my boat has been in the shop for 3 weeks.

I was supposed to pick it up today, and now it's Thursday. They finally read my work order and now I'm waiting for a livewell impellor. Whatever happened to service?

Roger

---

Paul Roberts reply : 

  Quote

Nice post Paul,

We all learn from everyone else, but what we do with that mountain of data has a way dividing us into different camps.

I guess I don't see the separate camps.

  Quote

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that it's 'sunlight' per se that spooks bass. On the contrary,  I believe that bass welcome sunlight because it enhances their vision underwater. Instinctively, bass probably sense that they too are more visible and tend to locate on the edge of shade peering over sunlit water. If catching bass is more difficult in sunlit water, that's testament to the fact that sunlight is a benefit to bass. Bass in clear sunlit water enjoy maximal vision and will react to everything they see. We call that behavior spooky,  but bass call it the cat's meow (we're at a disadvantage, not bass).

Agreed. Recognize though that I didn't say that sunlight spooks bass, only that the difficulty in catching them under bright sun could obscure an angler's interpretation of post frontal bass behavior.

  Quote

Now, what might one do? Here are some good answers:

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

I agree with that entire list, and might only add the use of neutral colors, nothing gaudy.

But why are we toning down our delivery if sunlight is the culprit? Sunshine does not cause torpor or indifference, oppositely solar gain enhances the activity of sunfish (all life). On the other hand, a downtrend in water temperature can and will cause a downtrend in bass activity and bass disposition.

It is a matter of degrees, and a short-lived cold-front with a small temperature differential (difference in air temp and water temp) will barely affect bass even in shallow water. Conversely, bass in deep water (rare in my parts) won't be affected at all by most cold-fronts, save a prolonged cold-front with a sharp temperature disparity.

See above response.

  Quote

Quote:

4) To say that "a bass is a bass" no matter where you are is invalid. As you would expect, the optimal temperature range for Florida-strain bass (75 to 85) is about 10 deg higher than the optimal range for a northern-strain bass (65 to 75).

This differential is the cause of many arguments.

GUILTY OF BIAS. I UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT HAVE NEVER SO MUCH AS SEEN A FLORIDA LARGEMOUTH. I'M WORKING WITH NORTHERNS AND TAKE POSSIBLE FLORIDANUS INFO INTO ACCOUNT -A SUBSET. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT OTHER DIFFERENCES/SIMILARITIES APPEAR. ONE THING I'VE READ IS THAT FLORIDANUS' RESPOND MUCH MORE NEGATIVELY TO COLD FRONTS THAN NORTHERNS, WHICH MAY REPRESENT MY NIT-PICKING OVER THE INTENSITY OF A GIVEN FRONT.

I was born in New Jersey and the lion's share of my bass fishing took place in Jersey, New York and Ontario.

I've also lived six years in Georgia and going on ten years in Florida.

Bottom line, I've been fortunate in being exposed to northern-strain, Florida-strain and intergrade bass.

Aside from the obvious difference in growth rate, there's a significant difference between the attitude and behavior

of northern-strain and Florida-strain bass, and it's not illusory, it's blatant.

I think I already responded to that one.

  Quote

Quote:

5) Given adequate oxygen, Bass feel no discomfort in any water temperature, therfore they never have to relocate on the basis of water temperature.

I DON'T AGREE. FISH ARE KNOWN TO MOVE TO SEEK TEMPERATURE, AND I CAN SEE BOTH VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL MOVEMENTS BEING A PART OF THIS IN A BASSES LIFE

I'm not at all surprised, because I'm pretty much on my own upholding this premise.

But just as you're from Missouri on the ramifications of a cold-front, I've yet to be convinced that fish experience any discomfort

stemming from water temperature alone. Human beings are warm-blooded animals and need to maintain a body temperature

of 98.6 deg F otherwise die. To warn us that we're getting out of safe range our body will produce discomfort (too hot or too cold).

In stark contrast, bass have no body temperature to maintain, so there's no need for a warning system that causes discomfort.

While ice-fishing on Budd Lake, New Jersey a yellow perch jumped out of the basin we shaved in the ice to store our caught fish.

When I finally noticed the perch it was apparently dead and frozen to the ice. I had to kick the fish a couple times to break the frozen hold.

To my amazement, about the 10 minutes later that perch was swimming in the basin,

looking none the worse for wear.

          However, when water temperatures reach an extreme they're usually accompanied by other phenomenon.

For instance, even though bass in coldwater may feel no discomfort, frigid water  temperatures reduce

their metabolism and digestion and depress their aggression, a time when a dead minnows may be more successful than a live minnow.

Torpor causes no discomfort, it's no more painful than slumber. At the opposite end of the spectrum is hot water,

and though it may not cause discomfort per se, warm water has a lower saturation point for dissolved oxygen.

In Florida at least, oxygen is usually not a problem in water under 90 degrees, in any case, oxygen-deprivation is a secondary stressor

exacerbated by warm water, but the warm water per se causes no discomfort.I'm not aware of any ichthyological study confirming the migration of bass triggered solely by thermal discomfort

that was totally unrelated to other stressors such as oxygen-deprivation.

I have read the results of poorly conducted studies that would leave the reader with that impression,

but none that you couldn't easily poke holes in.

I see, I think...Of course, temperature and oxygen are directly related. But whether it's temp alone or not is a pedagogical question, not a very practical one unless you can find very high temps with super-saturated water very highly unlikely, especially in largemouth waters. Thus upper temperature limits are valid measurements.

Of course DO is involved; It is integral. Not sure of your point. Can you provide a practical example why an angler might ignore temp measurements beyond the upper limits? I can think of one but it doesn't fit your argument.

But DO could potentially be very important at more normal temperatures,and this can be an issue for anglers. Temp alone would not provide this.

The disagreement centered on whether fish will move in response to temperature. And my response is, for all practical purposes: Yes, fish WILL MOVE to avoid high temp (and the always associated O2 depletion), and even to trim their metabolic requirements. There are plenty of studies demonstrating this.

  Quote

I'll close with a little something I've learned about 25 years ago,

and it's done a pretty decent job of keeping me out of trouble.

It's founded on water temperature trend, but gives the angler a clue as to the current direction of that trend.

POSITIVE

Air temperature greater than the water temperature, regardless of the value in degrees.

NEGATIVE

Air temperature lower than the water temperature, regardless of the value in degrees.

Agreed, but for clarity for readers: This is valid only if enough time is allowed for water to give up or absorb the heat. Water is notoriously stingy with heat in both directions. Thus the need to look at trends over time, rather than the given temps at any one time.

Good closing, Roger!

---

Paul Roberts reply : 

  Quote

In my view, barometric pressure is purely coincidental to other more important events (not a popular view).

Let's break it down: The difference between a normal barometer and a low barometer is about 0.77 lb / sq in.

If a bass moved just 1.8 ft upward in the water column, the drop in body pressure would be identical

to a major swing in barometric pressure. Somehow I can't force an interest in barometric activity.

Lois and I have hauled ling and whiting from water over 100 feet deep.

When they made it topside, their eyes were bulging out of their head and their stomachs were in their mouth.

Now THAT'S pressure Tongue

I have to comment:

BINGO!!! Nailed that one head on, Roger. Too much voodoo out there. (I can hear the Twilight Zone theme song now).

---

RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Can you provide a practical example why an angler might ignore temp measurements beyond the upper limits? I can think of one but it doesn't fit your argument.

I'm not sure I understand your question.

As the water temperature rises, water becomes increasingly lighter and more porouos (less dense).

Eventually it will be unable to hold ample dissolved oxygen to support life, the cause of massive fishkills.

An oxygen-deprived bass is in big trouble, shows signs of stress,

and will die unless he finds water with at least 5 ppm.

My theory is this, if you could deliver 10 ppm O2 to that same bass,

you'd remove signs of stress and the bass would no longer be interested in altering its location.

Though I didn't mention it, there is an upper metabolic limit

beyond which basal rates are racing, like a person on amphetamines.

This I believe is the reason why bass living south of their natural range

die prematurely of thermal burnout, but that's a whole other ballgame.

Roger

---

Catt reply : 

WRB, that is not a personal attack ok, read what you wrote

Water temperature controls nearly every aspect of their lives

As long as the temperature is within the basses comfort zone, the DO levels are good, the PH is OK and food supply is there, the optimum temperature isn't a primary factor

The first statement says temperature controls a bass's life, the second statement says dissolved oxygen, PH, and food supply cancels temperature; exactly what Ken Cook stated. Ken's statement about shallow water was the fact that bass are shallow during spring and fall because that is where the food supply is not because of temperature. If the oxygen level or food source aint there it doesn't matter what the temperature is.

Paul; How do I deal with cold fronts? & brilliant blue skies

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

Agree except with the last two; I found after 35 years of fishing deep structure and heavy vegetation down sizing tackle and lures is not necessary.

Roger I think we went to the same school & had the same teacher  

All and all this is one outstanding post with some extremely valuable information contributed by everyone

---

senile1 reply : 

Wow.  I saw this thread when it first started last Thursday.  I was out of town all weekend visiting my kids so I didn't look at it again until last night.  It had grown . . . . ever so slightly.  :  

It looks like everything has been said that could be said.  The reason bass react in particular ways is a great topic, but it is one that can become confusing to newer fishermen, especially with the differing opinions presented by knowledgeable fishermen.  I just want to reiterate something that Catt said earlier in one of his posts on this thread that ties all of this together for fishing purposes.

  Quote

I still don't fully understand how natural variations in weather and seasons affect fish. Nobody really has all the answers. But based on my lifelong experience as a bass angler and biologist, I have a good understanding of where to find bass as the seasons change and as the water temperatures rise and fall.

We may disagree on what causes a bass to do what it does, or to choose certain locations, but as long as we know there will be bass at particular locations, under certain conditions, we can find them and catch them.  

---

RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Roger I think we went to the same school & had the same teacher

I consider myself self-mentored, so if you can agree with most of what I believe,

you're obviously a graduate from the "School of Hard Knocks"

Roger

---

Catt reply : 

  Quote

  Quote

Roger I think we went to the same school & had the same teacher

I consider myself self-mentored, so if you can agree with most of what I believe,

you're obviously a graduate from the "School of Hard Knocks"

Roger

Yelp still got a few bruises  

---

WRB reply : 

  Quote

WRB, that is not a personal attack ok, read what you wrote

Water temperature controls nearly every aspect of their lives

As long as the temperature is within the basses comfort zone, the DO levels are good, the PH is OK and food supply is there, the optimum temperature isn't a primary factor

Let me try to clarify the statement one more time. Bass are cold blooded animals and their existance is dependant on water temperature, that is a major factor. Once the water temperature is within their preferred temperature range, then it becomes less of a factor. Food and sancturary becomes the basses primary concern because the water temperature is warm and stable, their metabolism demands increase to eat more and rest. If for whatever reason the stable warm water temperature change dramtically, more than 10 degrees, then the bass will relocate. The summer temps are normally stable for several months, when the they change and become unstable agian, water temperature will become a major factor, until the season's return annually to the summer warm water period once agian.

WRB

The first statement says temperature controls a bass's life, the second statement says dissolved oxygen, PH, and food supply cancels temperature; exactly what Ken Cook stated. Ken's statement about shallow water was the fact that bass are shallow during spring and fall because that is where the food supply is not because of temperature. If the oxygen level or food source aint there it doesn't matter what the temperature is.

Paul; How do I deal with cold fronts? & brilliant blue skies

-Fish deep

-Fish heavy cover

-Fish slower

-Use light tackle

-Down-size

Agree except with the last two; I found after 35 years of fishing deep structure and heavy vegetation down sizing tackle and lures is not necessary.

Roger I think we went to the same school & had the same teacher

All and all this is one outstanding post with some extremely valuable information contributed by everyone

I haven't chipped in on frontal conditions up to this point.

Barometric pressure affects on bass are misunderstood, IMO. The most severe storms, for example only change the atmosphic presseure about 100 millibars. Humans feel astmosphic changes more than bass do and tend to apply the pressure changes to how they feel.

Consider a 100 millibar pressure change affect on the water surface; it equals about 3 inch of water added weight to the bass. Yes they feel the change, but I don't believe the pressure change has a major impact. What does have an major impact is the change in light intensity due the increased, then decreased moisture in the atmosphere. Low pressure forms a depression the moist air moves into and that triggers activity as the eccosystem becomes more active. The low pressure is pushed out by a frontal high pressure, winds increase, the moisture is push out and the atmosphere becomes extremely clear, increasing the light intesity. The astospheric changes from claim moist conditions to clear windy conditions has a dramatic affect on the shallow water eccosystem.

Everyone has frontal conditions from time to time. The lowland lakes and reserviors that are shallow are affected more than the deeper highland and hill land type reserviors becuase the light intensity changes and wind affects are more dramatic. Where I live and fish it is easier to move to deepr water where the climatic changes have less impact, so that is what I do; fish deepr water. In a shallow water enviroment, like Florida for example, you must try to locate active bass and they aren't too active after feeding during the low pressure system. The bright sky conditions usually cause the bass to seek sancturary under cover in shallow water, so that is the best place to start; near or in the cover with presentations that target inactive bass.

WRB

---

FishinDaddy reply : 

Roger, if you don't get your boat back soon I still have my 17.5 triton for sale in the yard if you need to borrow it.

---

RoLo reply : 

  Quote

Roger, if you don't get your boat back soon I still have my 17.5 triton for sale in the yard if you need to borrow it.

Unless you're pulling my leg, that's one heck of an offer Lee!

Actually I just spoke with Mickie today (Hoppys Marine) and unless he encounters yet another snag, I'll be picking her up tomorrow.

I can't believe you're selling your boat  :-?

Roger

---

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