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Don't you love these guys ??? :-) 2024


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 

So I'm launching the boat yesterday and I see a guy launching a high-performance bass boat. He has to ask me what I'm fishing for {because I'm fishing from a 14ft aluminum}. Bass, I tell him... preferably a monster :)

Yea', he says, "I hear you. I caught a 13.7 lb'er here last year... that's my biggest". Wow, I reply, "Did you know that these are Northern strain bass, and the lake reord here is only 13.4 lbs" ? "Really" he says ? "Wow ! I brought them a picture of it, and they didn't even tell me I caught the lake record" ! {while I'm thinking to myself, that maybe they smelt the same odor of BS that I was smelling about right now}

So I go on to tell him that as much fun as the big Northerns are, I actually come here for the giant Smallies. "Yea', he says, "I caught a 10 1/4 lb Smallmouth last year". So again, I ask him, did you know that the Lk. record here is 9.8 lbs, and in fact, that 9.8 lb'er crushed a 30 year old CA state record ??? "Yea, he says"..... but the marina was already closed..... and we couldn't find anybody with a certified scale.... and yada... yada.....

I took one more moment to pop open my camera case, and show him my cameras, and certfied scale. I told him that catching the kind of fish that he was, he might want to invest in something like this......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, how lucky am I to meet the one guy who has caught the lake record Largemouth, AND the Lk + state record Smallmouth too ! ::)  

> This is why I carry my fish photo album < Their are just so many catches that I wouldn't even want to mention, if I couldn't back it up.

Plus, it's always kind of funny to mention several big catches, and people are like.... yea, yea, yea...... and about the time they are thinking you are full of BS, you can say, "Oh BTW, I have my album right here if you'd like to see some of these fish I've been talking about"......

So you break it out, and now the same guys that were like, "Yea, yea, uh huh, yea......" "Are like, "HOLY $^%$ ! Joe, Jim... come check this out !!! OMG !!! Oooh Ahhhh !

I'm always thinking, "What ? Why the sudden change of heart ?

Funny how this works, huh ? :-)

Peace,

Fish


fishing user avatarsenile1 reply : 

If someone doesn't know you I can understand some doubt until you pull out the proof of a big fish story, or stories.  The "stories" that some people tell are amazing.  The guy you spoke to has to know that his stories aren't believable.  


fishing user avatardone reply : 

See, I would be gullible enough to believe it. Despite numerous times I have been shown otherwise, it is tough for me to think someone would just make something up like that.

I mean, personally, I don't fish to impress others, just to have a ton of fun, if I catch a lot of fish, I am real happy, if I don't I am happy just the same. I just LOVE to fish. I usually do not even take a picture (too much PITA to pull my camera phone out).

That being said, glad you caught him on those stories. At least he kept the weight in the realm of actualy biologic possibility (vs, I caught me a 30lber last month).


fishing user avatarSouth FLA reply : 

I take everything ANYBODY says with a grain of salt, unless there is documented proof or I saw it first hand, but nevertheless, fisherman are known to tell "fish stories."  Anytime, someone is BSing me I basically smile and say "Really, Wow!"  No reason to burst their bubble.  

I am guilty or rounding up myself.  If its 7lbs 8ozs and its not a tournament fish, you bet your butt, I'll be telling my buddies yeah I caught a 8lber  ;D.  

By the way I caught a huge snook approaching 40lbs if not bigger with my brother while wade fishing the Intracoastal, at the time we did not bring a camera nor could we keep the fish, but you bet your butt the memory is ingrained, its your choice to believe it or not  :P


fishing user avatarTuckman reply : 

I almost always weigh, take a picture, and release my fish, but its funny how time can distort the memory...I sure cant remember a time when a released fish lost weight myself...I caught a huge rainbow trout the other day that me and my friend guessed at about 7lbs but she looked huge in my phone picture, and after sending it to a few of my buddies in a matter of minutes she had grown to 8lbs and was showing no signs of slowing down. I saw one of my fishing buddies yesterday and he said he had heard I had caught a 9lb rainbow, I was like yea man, but I released her and she was filling up on eggs so she might be a bit bigger by now...

:)


fishing user avatarOlebiker reply : 

There is a small lake, Lake Munson, on the southern edge of Tallahassee.  It is a beautiful little lake surrounded by cypress trees.  It has a history of water quality problems so there are few people that fish it.

A guy was putting his equipment away one day last year and was telling me about all the big bass he had caught at Munson.  I guess he could perceive my doubt so he went to his truck and brought out a photo album full of big honkin' bass.  I won't doubt him again.

Funny thing was that he had a Ranger boat full of Berkley Cherrywood rods.


fishing user avatarMottfia reply : 

Its hard to take a stranger's word on somthing as crazy as that. I'll give you props for not busting him hard right off the bat, Chris. That was pretty sly to throw in the record thing to him. Maybe that will even out his stories some...if he even thought about the point that you were trying to make  :P  

Mottfia


fishing user avatarfishizzle reply : 

I am that guy!!


fishing user avatarJ Francho reply : 

I like to let that guy carry on, and dig a deeper hole.  Its entertaining to me.  When he asks how I did, I'll say something equally ridiculous, like, "I caught three dinks."


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 

Fishizzle ! You had me tripping for just a second ! You kind of look like that guy ;-)  LOL But I see your from CT.... We are in CA :-)

Hey, I fish (and take fish photos, and weighings), first and foremost, for myself too. But also, for anyone who likes to see big fish photos, and here big fish stories !

Tell you what I else, "I wish" more guys would break out photos of their personal trophy catches ! I love seeing them ! It gets me stoked ! Of course that turns me into the guy that says, "Yea, yea, uh huh, yea"........ "Holy #$#$ ! That's a hog ! Great fish ! You da' man" ! :-)

I guess the whole point of my post (since I always seem to have somebody come back to ask me, "What's the point of this post" ? :))

is that, as somebody pointed out > It is within the realm of biological possibility, that this guy did, in fact, catch both a 13.7 lb Northern bass, and a 10.25 lb Smallie...... But he {and everyone} should be well aware that their are a WHOLE BUNCH of guys that just blow a lot of smoke about big fish catches. And unless you have some kind of photo evidence, your likely to be brushed off as "just another one of those guys".

Personally, I can't imagine having worked as hard as I have, to have no photos to go back to look at, and relive those experiences, and to share with others who are into the same thing, or worse yet, to get shoved into the same box, with a bunch of BS'ers.

Peace,

Fish


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 
  Quote
I like to let that guy carry on, and dig a deeper hole.  Its entertaining to me.  When he asks how I did, I'll say something equally ridiculous, like, "I caught three dinks."

;D I love it !  ;D

Fish


fishing user avatarbassmajor reply : 

If I am at the lake when this happens I always say I've only been catching small ones.  I don't want this guy honing in on my honey holes out there.  

I usually lie about the fish I catch....I just say the fishing was slow and all I got were dinks.  There are too many lazys out there that will follow me around if I say the opposite.  

I know many of you don't ice fish but its really bad during the winter up here too with this sort of thing.


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 

Bassmajor, I hear you.

But it's really funny how I get mostly ignored by "serious bass anglers" because of my boat. I mean, I can't be a "real" bass angler, who catches anything worth mentioning, from a 14ft aluminum, right ;-)

Tell you what else..... I've heard all the jokes about my camo paint job, "Oh, is that so you can sneak up on the big ones" ? Yea, dude. That's it.

But I'll tell you, I can see their 21 ft glitter rockets coming from the other side of the lake..... while they often get so close to me, with my camo boat, often sitting in 2 feet of water, up against a earth, rock, and tree background, that I'm wondering when their going to finally see me..... and then, 200 or 100 yards out, I hear that big 225 wind down.... putt around for a minute, then shoot off at 70 mph in a different direction ;-)

Anyway, I'll usually tell them about hogs I caught "at the end of a trip".... But good luck finding me the next time ;-)

Peace,

fish


fishing user avatarSnowBass23 reply : 
  Quote
I almost always weigh, take a picture, and release my fish, but its funny how time can distort the memory...I sure cant remember a time when a released fish lost weight myself...I caught a huge rainbow trout the other day that me and my friend guessed at about 7lbs but she looked huge in my phone picture, and after sending it to a few of my buddies in a matter of minutes she had grown to 8lbs and was showing no signs of slowing down. I saw one of my fishing buddies yesterday and he said he had heard I had caught a 9lb rainbow, I was like yea man, but I released her and she was filling up on eggs so she might be a bit bigger by now...

:)

I'm with you!  I think part of our bass fishing "culture" is the telling of fish stories.  I myself will certainly round up to the next half pound if nothing is on the line.  If I'm actively competing with buddies then I'll snap a pic of the fish on digital scales.  And to be honest, I expect the same kind of exagerations from my fishing buddies!  There's certainly a difference between exaggerating and outright lying in my book.  Last year my wife caught a big ol' hog of a bass right after the spawn had ended.  This fish had an enormous mouth and was just as skinny as could be.  She weight in just over 6 lbs.  Now, we all know how much heavier a large girl would be before spawn compared with after.  So that day I kept saying how a month prior she was probably around 7.5 Naturally, by the time I got home she was pushing 8 lbs.  As I told the story to friends she kept gaining a Qtr. pound at a time, until finally she was a 9 pound bass.  Somewhere along the way my wife asked me one day how big her bass was, and I couldn't remember the real number.  

I'll always say I've just caught a couple of dinks when I see someone on the water unless I know them.  I'll also *cough cough* lie about what I caught them on when a stranger asks.  If they were all on plastics then I caught them on spinner baits.  If they were on cranks then I caught them finessin'.  If it is somebody fishing with kids, especially the ones that rarely take the kids out to fish then I'll answer honestly about what is or isn't working.


fishing user avatarJUST reply : 

Chris

The same thing happens to me when I launch my 15' Boston Whaler and the big bass boat guys ask me what I'm fishing for. When I say bass, they seem surprised and of course I can't be a serious bass anglers with that boat. I'll tell you what though; one of my favorite things in sticking fish in front of those guys.


fishing user avatarBass Dude reply : 

Wow Fish Chris---you met a real winner there!!! :D

I bet he's one of those guys that catches only 5 pounders in tournaments too!!


fishing user avatarWRB reply : 

Chris, you are a lot more open to on the water fisherman then I am. I will talk to fishermen off the water or in a setting like this where I can keep a lower profile. Sharing information to help other catch bass is giving something back to the sport. Sharing a lot of photo's is good if you are promoting yourself or a product.

Back in the dark ages we didn't have digital cameras and film camera tend to overheat when stored in a boat for a long time period. The old Polaroids fade to black in time.

Sent you a pic of a giant bass in my old Lund tin boat, miss that old boat.

WRB


fishing user avatardone reply : 
  Quote
Bassmajor, I hear you.

But it's really funny how I get mostly ignored by "serious bass anglers" because of my boat. I mean, I can't be a "real" bass angler, who catches anything worth mentioning, from a 14ft aluminum, right ;-)

Tell you what else..... I've heard all the jokes about my camo paint job, "Oh, is that so you can sneak up on the big ones" ? Yea, dude. That's it.

But I'll tell you, I can see their 21 ft glitter rockets coming from the other side of the lake..... while they often get so close to me, with my camo boat, often sitting in 2 feet of water, up against a earth, rock, and tree background, that I'm wondering when their going to finally see me..... and then, 200 or 100 yards out, I hear that big 225 wind down.... putt around for a minute, then shoot off at 70 mph in a different direction ;-)

Anyway, I'll usually tell them about hogs I caught "at the end of a trip".... But good luck finding me the next time ;-)

Peace,

fish

LOL. I hear ya on the boat. I got a customized 1446 jon and I have actually had someone tell me it was "cute". Course when we both got back at the end of the day and he got skunked and I was hitting them all day long, well the "cute" goes away.

It is not always true but fairly often on Wylie the guys who hit 'em good are running around in Pond prawlers, or jons like mine. Does not take a$15,000 boat to catch bass (of course it doesn't hurt either  ;))


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 
  Quote
Does not take a$15,000 boat to catch bass (of course it doesn't hurt either  

Actually a big, expensive boat (with a big, gas guzzling motor) would hurt me a LOT ! If it costed me 4 X's as much to operate, I could only fish 1/4 as often as I do. If I could only fish 1/4 as often as I do, I'd only catch 1/4 as many fish. If I only caught 1/4 as many fish, their would be a 75% chance that my biggest fish would be smaller ;-) See how this works ?

Actually, my biggest bass came from a place that allows "no gas motors"..... So, make that a 100% chance ;-)  LOL

Peace,

Fish


fishing user avatarzaraspook_dylan2 reply : 
  Quote
Its hard to take a stranger's word on somthing as crazy as that. I'll give you props for not busting him hard right off the bat, Chris. That was pretty sly to throw in the record thing to him. Maybe that will even out his stories some...if he even thought about the point that you were trying to make :P

Mottfia

lol i like your quote

its true


fishing user avatarIma Bass Ninja reply : 

He probably has spent 40,000 on that new boat but has yet to land a  decent fish and is probably compensating for his obvious lack of fishing knowledge compared to someone in a 14ft jon boat( I base this on you knowing state fishing records and him not). Any way its the same in all sports fishing, golf, hunting, whatever you will always have somebody with excellent equipment that has to  "upgrade" there performance ( i.e catch a 3 lb call it 5, or shoot 85 on the course and call it 81 in the club house) in order to justify the large amout of money they just spent to there peers.  You should feel good knowing that you walked away from that conversation with no doubt that you are the better angler.


fishing user avatarBassmanDan reply : 

Maybe that was Mike Long in disguise Chris   ;D. I've actually had someone lose their cool and accuse me of lying when I truthfully told them what I caught one day when we were done fishing the same lake. Needless to say that person is "over the top" competitive and I just walked away to let him stew in his own juices. I'll tell you how many I caught and what I got them on but not where...finding them is half the fun anyway.


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 

Hey BassMan, that's why I usually tell them, "Yea ! Great trip ! Wanna' see the photos" ?

Do you think those couple of guys in high-per bass boats (the ones that had the really tough trip) would have believed me about the 10.5 lb Northern bass, or the 5.7 lb Smallie that day ? Heck no, they wouldn't have.... unless maybe if they knew me.

Anyway, great photos are just too easy nowadays, with modern digital cameras (even when fishing by yourself) for anyone to have any excuses.

Peace,

Fish


fishing user avatarDINK WHISPERER reply : 

I guess everyone with a small boat gets this huh!?! I always get weird looks when i launch my 16ft boat. It's a glitter rocket as Chris calls them but just a smaller version. I like smaller boats because imo they go through nasty, shallow stuff a lot better!


fishing user avatarfishinfiend reply : 

What a jackleg!  ;D


fishing user avatarCatt reply : 

Never in my life have I owned a boat longer than 16' and it was an Alweld 1652 V-Nose Modified V bottom tunnel with a Tohatsu 40 hp; the bass boat I own now is a 1996 Stratos 258V which is only 15' 8 with a 70 hp Johnson. I've tournament fished for 37 yrs with 21 plus wins and 25 double digit bass and I absolutely love the look of total shock in their eyes at the weight-in.

Many times at weight-ins, caf é, marines, or boat launches I am opposite of Chris preferring not to mention any thing of my expertise but rather let the locals tell them who I am as I walk way with that lunatic smile. What's absolutely hilarious is when some one sits there dropping names of local Pros they know only to have that person walk up go straight by them, shake my hand, and start talking fishing.  


fishing user avatarSirSnookalot reply : 

I catch great fish on foot and I pace them off with the length of my shoe or a mark on the rod, tells me close enough what I have.


fishing user avatarfishfordollars reply : 

Just goes to show you it ain't the arrow, it's the indian.

80% of the fish are caught by 10% of the fishermen reguardless of the equipment used.

Big, fast, boats have caused the catch rate to drop for many. They have the "let's check there itis". Spend way too much time running up and down the lake.

My Skeeter has a 28 gallon tank that usually last me three + days on the water.


fishing user avatarCatt reply : 

Yea but Jack they look so good ;)

I've said it before & I'll say it again The #1 key to consistently catching bass is between your ears not between the folds of your wallet.


fishing user avatarBucketmouthAngler13 reply : 

HAha yeah I know how whats that like.

I had a city slicker tell me that he caught a 12lb bass out of this couple acre pond. I was like "Wow thats a nice one.... do you know what the state record is?" To which he answered "Yeah like 20lbs right?"

I gave a chuckle and told him it was 10lbs 14oz and hadnt been touched in 30 years. Then he admited to not having a scale, but he showed me the picture. It was around 4lbs, on a gooood day, full of eggs, with a 2oz lead weight in its mouth.  ;D


fishing user avatarNYfishwow reply : 

fish photo album is great idea Chris,

some people will just say stuff all the time...

its great to show them whos real BOSS!


fishing user avatarfishfordollars reply : 

Cell phones with cameras are like GPS when it comes to proving a point. Put the pic on your phone if you have to show it off and take a pic of the MPH GPS reading to prove a point.

GPS is the number one killer of mph on a boat. Just as a cell phone pic(Or any other pic) of a bass is the number one reason for the loss of weight.


fishing user avatarBranuss04 reply : 
  Quote
Chris

The same thing happens to me when I launch my 15' Boston Whaler and the big bass boat guys ask me what I'm fishing for. When I say bass, they seem surprised and of course I can't be a serious bass anglers with that boat. I'll tell you what though; one of my favorite things in sticking fish in front of those guys.

I don't know Justin, I've seen pics and heard stories about the whaler.  :-/ .  I'd probably look at you wierd too and ask you to "Git da buket!!"  ;D.

Most of the anglers that I know who are "good/great" fisherman don't drive bass boats.... well I don't think any of them do.   Most are Aluminum V hulls, or John boats, or fiberglass tri hull... with the exception of the whaler.  

I hear ya Fish, I give the cold shoulder to most guys when I start smelling BS.  Those lakes tend to always smell like that  ::).  But having pics to prove it is a great idea!!!!


fishing user avatarBtech reply : 
  Quote
See, I would be gullible enough to believe it. Despite numerous times I have been shown otherwise, it is tough for me to think someone would just make something up like that.

I agree - Why do people have to lie about their catches? IF ya got it ya got it , if ya dont .... you dont.

Ill be the first to tell ya my BP was only 4.5 LB lol .  And that was PURE LUCK . I wouldnt try to lie about it and claim it was a 10lb.

Just tell the truth. It works out better in the long run.


fishing user avatarDaniel My Brother reply : 

I'm pretty friendly at the dock. I'll always ask if they're biting, more if the guy seems like he wants to share.

I can't remember a time where someone told me a story that I just flat out didn't believe. It's probably happened, but it's certainly rare.

Maybe it's because I fish 10hp lakes...I believe these guys are just more concerned with fishing than boating....and more likely to play it close to the vest.


fishing user avatartritz18 reply : 

not about the boat, its about the fishermen. And I have had my share of people BSing. A guy told us he caught a huge trout off the dock, funny thing is there are no trout in the pond I fish


fishing user avatarWesley reply : 

Yeah those guys with big bass boats suck and cant fish.  


fishing user avatarFordNFishinLover reply : 
  Quote
Yeah those guys with big bass boats suck and cant fish.

KVD, Skeet, Ike, Roland, Jones, fish from a big bass boat....

;)


fishing user avatarWesley reply : 
  Quote
  Quote
Yeah those guys with big bass boats suck and cant fish.

KVD, Skeet, Ike, Roland, Jones, fish from a big bass boat....

;)

you must have missed the sarcasm there.


fishing user avatarMattlures reply : 

It aint the boat. I now fish out of a nice big bassboat. Mike Long does and so does John Kerr. I do disagree with FC on them being a gass guzzler. They are only bad on gass if your going supeer fast. My boat will go scarry fast but I dont like to run that fast. I usualy go around 40-50mph and I dont go through that much gas. Its how you run your boat. A nice big boat for the most part is an advantage. I can store more stuff and keep it out of my way. If I have to make a longer run or if the water is rough I am much more comfortable. I have owned a 16ft aluminum and it did the job but it is not as comfortable or as stable as a big glass boat. I did get a plain colored one and I wont put any stickers on it. I want as little atention as possible while I am on the water.

I also agree with WRB, before I started selling baits I took pictures but mainly just for me, I only showed my closest friends. Now I show alot of people but I try to make it hard to tell where I was at.

As for guys lying about their fishes weights, that has always bothered me. I weight just about every fish I catch unless of course its not worthy.


fishing user avatarMicro reply : 

In my neck of the woods, eastern Virginia, we don't have many big lakes where a super-big bass boat makes a lot of sense.  We have a lot of electric-only reservoirs and a couple of gas-motor lakes, and some rivers.   I certainly don't have anything against a big bass boat - I wish I had one.  

But I kind feel sorry for the guy with a $30,000+ boat and enough fish finder screens so that is looks like a floating Circuit City store.  That's the guy who can make it to a spot much faster than my boat can.  But can't squeeze between cypress trees or navigate between the log jams to make it to a secluded little cove.  

They guys that seem to do best on my home lake tend to be the guys who rent a beat up  12ft jon boat, a 6 hp motor and put a transom trolling motor on the bow.  Their rigs look ridiculous.  But they know the lake and clean up on big fish.


fishing user avatarMaineBassMan reply : 

I usually act like I believe them and kind of blow them off, really don't care if they are telling me the truth or not, I know what is in the lake. I was taught by my Great Uncle and Grandfather not to brag too much about the fish we catch. If asked how we did we always say that it was slow and we only caught a few pickerel the bass weren't biting. Our lakes get very little fishing pressure why attract more? You have to water board me to get me to tell you what lake I caught my bass on if I show someone a picture of a big fish. Granted our bass are nowhere as big as yours but it is all relative to where you fish. To me a big smallmouth is anything over 4lbs,(3 pounders are nice), and 5lbs+ for a largemouth, (4 pounders are nice but I catch a good number of those).

I will ask if they weighed them on a good scale and if they say no I will not believe them. I caught a bunch of 5 pounders until I bought a nice scale. ;D

Boats make the fisherman look and feel good but it "DOES NOT MAKE THE FISHERMAN!"


fishing user avatarTokyo Tony reply : 

Yeah, well try showing up to the ramp with a car top canoe and a 30 lb thrust trolling motor  ;D


fishing user avatarbilgerat reply : 

Reminds me of an obnoxious kid that was in our neighborhood growing up.

We were into street hockey big time, It was an obsession with us. We made nets out of scrap lumber, our goalie equipment was homemade, sticks taped together, yadda yadda. You get the point.

This kid's family was loaded. The old man drops big money on real goalie gear, from pads to mask and everything in between.

Problem was, he sucked. After a day of getting smoked, someone asked him if his dad could buy him some skills. We got a kick out of that.


fishing user avatarMitchIsFishin reply : 

Fish Chris quotes:

  Quote
But it's really funny how I get mostly ignored by "serious bass anglers" because of my boat. I mean, I can't be a "real" bass angler, who catches anything worth mentioning, from a 14ft aluminum, right

Chris, I would give my left nut, marinaded in formaldehyde, on a cherrywood display base of your choosing for a 14 foot aluminum boat.

Sounds like you have exactly what you need. The guys spending 40K+ on boats (unless rich) are nuts. :D


fishing user avatarFish Chris reply : 

Hey Mitch, it's kind of a funny story....

You know I was sponsored by G3 right ? Well, they went through the whole "are you worth sponsoring" thing, reviewing my resume, photos, writings, etc, "first".

Then, after everything has been considered, and they decided that I was worth sponsoring, they basically said, "Okay. Your in. What boat do you want" ? So I told them, I want this V143. To which they replied, "That's it ? You do realize that we will give you the same {very large} % off of whatever boat you choose, right" ? Well yes, I kind of assumed that..... But that V143, with electric start, and power trim, is pretty much my dream boat ! Anything bigger, and it would just be a cumbersome PITA (personally speaking) + the fact that anything that used more gas, would start to cut into my time on the water !

So they were like, "Uhhh.... Well okay. I don't think we have ever sponsored somebody with such a small light boat"...... To which I replied, "That's awesome :-) I prefer to be the oddball anyway" ;-)

So yea', I know a lot of guys would find it hard to believe, but my 14ft aluminum (for most of the different types of fishing I do anyway) really is my dream boat ! Hand picked, from every boat I could find and research on the internet, and customized by me, for me :-)

Peace,

Fish


fishing user avatarmrlitetackle reply : 

personally i kinda like the guy whose just blowin smoke, cause i always have some larger fish pics on my phone.  It usually gets the same response....."oh crap, that was a beast..." or something along those lines.  But every once in a while you run into someone who can back their claims up....which is quite fun because it lights the fire in your belly to find the lunkers.......fish on my brothers!!!!




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