Do Northern Strain Lm Eat Smaller Forage? 2024

deep reply :

Several times I've heard than northern strain bass are used to smaller meals, and I started to think why it should be so.. The forage base obviously exists. Big bluegills and crappies, perch, baby catfish and carp, and if nothing else, there's always smaller bass.. Then why would a big northern bass eat a smaller forage than a comparable sized florida strain? I don't think northern bass are dumber than their southern cousins and would spend any more energy per unit of food consumed?

Is an 8" baby bass a normal meal for, say, a 5 lb northern largemouth?

Does anyone have any experience related to this? Maybe an article/ forum post you read somewhere?

WRB reply :

In California we have had the opportunity to fish lakes where both pure Florida strain, intergrades FLMB/NLMB and pure northern strain largemouth bass.

I will use lake Casitas as my baseline.

Prior to the induction of FLMB into lake Casitas the NLMB did not target planted rainbow trout during the 30 years of stocking them. Large size hard lures 8" or longer rarely caught any bass. Hard lures 6"Long or less worked well. 9" to 12" soft plastic worms and 9" pork eels did work. My PB NLMB from Casitas in '71 was a jig fish 12 lbs 4 oz. and caught several 40 lb 5 bass limits at Casitas prior to FLMB being introduced.

When the FLMB reached adult size over 5 lbs in Casitas they started chasing the stocked trout and it was common to see trout jumping out of the water with a big bass in pursuit. It wasn't rocket science to start hand painting muskie size lures in trout colors or using 8" to 10" soft plastic salt water sassy shad type calico bass lures in trout colors to catch these trout eating FLMB. 1981 I caught 18 lb 12 oz FLMB at Casitas, also on a jig and several 50 lb, 5 bass limits.

The bottom line; NLMB may strike large lures, rarely 8"+ hard baits and don't prefer large size bait fish like planted trout. FLMB will strike large size hard baits over 8" and prefer larger size bait fish that resemble slender bait like their native golden shiners; planted rainbow trout filled that need.

All big bass will strike long thin bottom bumping soft lures and lures that resemble crawdads and tend to avoid thick or wide bodied lures.

Tom

K_Mac reply :

Great question and a very interesting response WRB.

The notion of a 40 or 50 pound 5 fish limit is the stuff of dreams in this part of the world. Double digit fish are very rare, and have eluded me so far. I'm not sure I have ever fished in FLMB waters. I spent some time on La Grange lake is GA. and Smith Mountain lake in Va. years ago, but didn't know nothin about no FLMB at the time.

Based on my reading on FLMB I thought the difference was a genetic predisposition to grow bigger in warmer water. It never occurred to me that they would feed differently, and I don't recall ever seeing or hearing that discussed. Thanks guys.

Frog Turds reply :

i catch more big largies on the number 7 size shallow shad rap in the fall which is 2 3/4" than anything else. but my point is that regardless of time if i throw cranks, the shad rap, lipless or square bills that around that size specifically produces the best for me here in minnesota.

deep reply :

Let's add a little more fuel?

http://www.huddlestondeluxe.com/bigbaittheory.html

How, if at all, does this theory apply to an NLMB?

@WRB, exactly the sort of experience I'm looking to learn; although, fishing for NLMBs with big baits as I do, it's quite disheartening.

WRB reply :

During the 50's I worked at Holloway's marina at Big Bear lake located at 7,000' altitude. Big Bear had a good NLMB population, however due to the short growing season, the lake freezes over during the winter, the bass rarely grew over 8 lbs.

Like most marina's there were usually a few big bass living under the docks. The DFG would plant rainbow trout near the marina and the big would go look at them but I didn't see any chasing the trout or eat any. One reason may have been the planted trout back then were at least 12" or 1 lb. the average size stocked.

Big bear tried to plant FLMB during the mid 70's and the Florida's did survive the winter. BB water is in the low 60's during the summer, FLMB couldn't survive water lower than 45 during the winter.

Fast forward to the mid 70's when several SoCal lakes north of San Diego stocked FLMB. The DFG had changed the average size planted rainbow trout to 3 per pound or 7" to 8" with a few 12' to 14" in the mix. NLMB may eat a 6" trout, however the FLMB preferred the stocked trout. The bass at Casitas would wait for the DFG truck to plant trout. Threadfin shad were also introduced in the 70's and both shad and trout are pelagic fish, the FLMB adjusted to feeding in deeper main lake water faster than the NLMB that prefer cover and dermersal bait fish that live in or near cover.

The threadfin shad had a major impact along with the planted trout in the growth potential of FLMB in SoCal lakes.

It's never one factor that allows bass to grow to giant size.

I fish both 6" and 8" huds and other swimbaits year around. Larger 12" swimbaits work OK at times. My preference is the smaller sizes. Unlike most trophy bass anglers I also prefer fishing jigs during the pre spawn period when a high % of giant bass are caught.

Tom

North Ga Hillbilly reply :

On 10/24/2011 at 5:21 AM, WRB said:
.
I fish both 6" and 8" huds and other swimbaits year around. Larger 12" swimbaits work OK at times. My preference is the smaller sizes. Unlike most trophy bass anglers I also prefer fishing jigs during the pre spawn period when a high % of giant bass are caught.

Tom

Dotty was caught/ facehooked with a jig. I think anything molesting in a bed will get those protective bites. Be it a jig or a a swimbait like matts bluegill. but itd be hard to give the same presentation with a larger swimbait as not many large fish are going to target eggs. just one interpretation tho.

NGaHB

deep reply :

WRB, thank you for your input. I really appreciate it. I am sending you a PM. It'd be great if you can find time to go through it.

jorilo reply :

I'm from Maine. I have caught several largemouth on big baits: 9inch MS Slammers, Huddlestons, etc.

The smallies occoinsally hit the big baits also.

WRB reply :

On 10/24/2011 at 6:44 AM, North Ga Hillbilly said:

Dotty was caught/ facehooked with a jig. I think anything molesting in a bed will get those protective bites. Be it a jig or a a swimbait like matts bluegill. but itd be hard to give the same presentation with a larger swimbait as not many large fish are going to target eggs. just one interpretation tho.

NGaHB

Bed bass are not eating; they are killing or chasing away intruders.

I believe Dottie was hooked on top of the head in front of the dosal fin, not on the side of the face from the eye withness reports.

I don't target bed fish intentionally; it's possible for a bed to be out deeper structure where pre spawners are located.

Mike Long caught Dottie on a swimbait off a bed.

Tom

WRB reply :

On 10/24/2011 at 10:07 PM, jorilo said:

I'm from Maine. I have caught several largemouth on big baits: 9inch MS Slammers, Huddlestons, etc.

The smallies occoinsally hit the big baits also.

Bass are like any animal, they can't determine their own size verses other fish until they get very close. A defensive strike is different from a feeding fish, you increase your odds with a swimbait that closely looks like the prey the bass are eating.

Lake Casitas for example the DFG has stopped stocking rainbow trout the past 2 years. The bass no longer strike swimbaits very often and you can go weeks without any trout swimbait strikes. The big bass are also straving without trout plant every week. It appears the big bass year class that grew up eating trout will not adjust and eat smaller threadfin shad or pan fish. The 7 to 9 lb bass year class may have adjusted to eating juvenile bass; 6" to 8" baby bass swimbaits work better now than trout colors at Casitas.

Tom

senile1 reply :

This is a very interesting subject for a thread. Thanks for bringing it up, deep, and thanks for all the information, WRB.

iceintheveins reply :

One of our lakes here in Western Colorado has a fair amount of 5 - 8 pound bass, though they aren't exactly common in that range. The lake is also stocked with rainbow trout. The bass do eat a fair amount of the 10" - 12" stocked rainbow trout. Another of our lakes has quite a few 2 - 5 pound largemouth and is also stocked with rainbows. Even a 3 - 4 pound largemouth can eat a stocker rainbow fairly easily. I know the big smallmouth in Utah's Jordanelle Reservoir eat a few rainbows too.

Big baits catch some nice bass here in Colorado. Your numbers will go down, but my friends have caught them with 8" swimbaits, and I catch lots on 6" - 8" plastics.

Mattlures reply :

I have caught plenty of northern strain on swimbaits. I actualy think they are more agresive and will hit a swimbait better then Florida strain. The difference might be the age and size of the two strains. You get a big northern and that fish is probably old and wise. The same size florida could still be a young fish that makes more mistakes. I rarley fish huge baits. I generaly stick to 4-8in swimbaits and I have no problem getting bit by either strains. I am sure a lot depends on the lakes to. Each lake fished differntly.

dolomieu reply :

On 10/23/2011 at 11:28 PM, deep said:

Then why would a big northern bass eat a smaller forage than a comparable sized florida strain?

I don't think there is any evidence to support this.

Largemouth are gape-limited predators. They will eat whatever they can fit in their mouths.

EJVH3 reply :

I think big fish like big meals regardless of the area or strain. Although we do not get many 7-10 pound bass here in NE Ohio, there is a good strong population of 4-5 pound bass and some 6+. We throw Mop Jigs with 5' Power Hogs as trailers, 10" worms, 5-6" soft swimbaits. 4-5 pound bass can fit a lot in their mouth. A cold front moves in and you are catching the 4-5 pounders on 4" finesse worms and 3" craws.

Hooligan reply :

I don't think they're forage limited at all. What I do see, though, is that they're going to get the most bang for their buck. Often in areas we fish, as Northern anglers, the forage species that are present at different times of year are smaller fish. Sometimes the abundance of those two to three inch fish is what determines what they will eat. If the smaller forage is ever-present and they can get it relatively easy without having to run it down, they're going to eat it. Go to areas that have large numbers of five to seven inch forage and they're going to be eating that. It's based entirely on the greatest density of forage that is available, I believe there has been some research done on the subject. I also believe that largemouth are opportunists. If they see an easy meal, they can get their face around it, and it's within striking distance, instinct will tell them to eat it. That HAS been proven time and again from various points of study.

slonezp reply :

Depends how hungry they are.

I have caught countless numbers of northern strain small bass on lures that are the same size the fish are. Whether it was a strike out of hunger or aggression, only the fish knows that. My largest bass to date was caught on KY Lake. (Don't know if that's a northern strain lake) A hair under 7lbs caught on a crappie minnow. Guess she wasn't that hungry.

Bass are going to eat whatever forage is around, to which they are acustomed to. Otherwise they don't eat. Not like they can go to the fish dept at Piggly Wiggly and order up some baked tilapia. I don't know how many times I have a livewell full of 3-5lb fish and a bunch of tiny crayfish they have spit up. How many times have you caught a fish on a crank or jerkbait and it has another fish in its gullet? They eat when they are hungry. They eat what's available at the time. Striking out of aggression is a different subject. I make these statements having only caught northern strain bass. I can't imagine a bass' feeding behavior is that different in the south

gobig reply :

I would say northerns eat big and small forage, just like any other Bass. For years Musky fishermen have been catching large bass on huge Musky baits. Even if you fish lakes that have no Trout, there are plenty of other fish in the lake that reach 8in or larger and become food. I don't know that I could identify a Northern from Florida strain if you set them side by side, but I can tell you this... A 4 to 5lb Bass has no trouble choking down an 8in Hud or smacking a 9in slammer. Hell, I even catch Spots and the occasional Smallie on big baits so I don't know why it would be any different with a Northern.

RyneB reply :

Great topic and even better information. I live in northern Illinois and my PB is 8lbs on a bluegill spinnerbait. The main body of water i fish is a strip mine that holds bass up to 10 lbs (biggest caught there). I throw a 6.5 inch strike king shadalicious swimbait quite often, and the smallest fish iv caught on it was a 10 inch bass. Iv also caught a ton of bass on baits where the bait is as big as the fish. I think it all depends on how hungry and how much the bass wants to work. My buddy caught a 3 lb bass with a 2 3/4lb catfish in its mouth one time.

Bass Junkie reply :

Yes, I'd never throw a 6"+ bait in front of a Northern Strain Largemouth........ Not at all recommended.....Just keep finesse fishing... Trust me..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

SENKOSAM reply :

Quote
You get a big northern and that fish is probably old and wise. The same size florida could still be a young fish that makes more mistakes.

I've never read anything that indicates age=wisdom. Bass are bass, whether Maine smallmouth or Texas largemouth, and activity level, either feeding or reflex related, pretty much determines the size lure or forage a bass will attack. The younger the bass, the more aggressive and size tolerant, eating forage or lures more than 1/2 its size. A better a question might be,'do larger older bass prefer larger forage?' Again,IMO, it always depends on activity level.

For example, April - June in NY, bass ranging from one pound on up aggressively attack 7" swimbaits, 6" stick baits and 7" Spooks. During warm water months, many bass will eat lures ranging from 2.5" grubs and small Itsy Bitsy jigs to 10" worms.

Do southern bass downsize their forage preferences in winter months? I believe they do in the north, at least as far as lure size.

WRB reply :

Bass are fish and fish can't determine their size verses the size of other fish until they are very close. This can explain why smaller bass will strike a lure larger then they are and why big bass will sometimes strike lures they can't swallow.

I look at these events as very low percentage, they are mistakes the bass made.

FLMB are a different bass than NLMB and have different genetic wiring and prey preferences. FLMB prefer larger long bodied, fine scaled, prey fish like the golden shiners they evolved eating for centuries. NLMB prefer shorter prey fish like young of the year bream or minnows they evolved eating. Both will strike big lures at times, FLMB prefer them when the large lures look like big prey fish they are looking for.

Having the experience of catching both big FLMB and NLMB from the same lakes has proven to me that FLMB prefer to eat planted trout and NLMB rarely eat planted trout in those same lakes.

There is no doubt that both FLMB and NLMB will eat smaller prey.

My PB for both NLMB and FLMB were caught on jigs with 4" trailers.

Keep in mind that a 10" worm is skinny and can easly fit into an average basses mouth, it's not just length it's the profile length and width that matters.

Tom

flippin and pitchin reply :

If I learned one thing this past two years, it is northern strain bass will eat

a much bigger meal than I ever imagined and so will a smallmouth. I had some fantastic bites

on Rago BVD's and smallies would smash a super spook. I would rather eat dirt than fish

a three inch Senko.

gobig reply :

Quote
Bass are fish and fish can't determine their size verses the size of other fish until they are very close. This can explain why smaller bass will strike a lure larger then they are and why big bass will sometimes strike lures they can't swallow.

The biggest problem when we look at baits is that is we tend to think one dimensionally. We look at things from our perspective, which is generally from the side. Baits are even marketed this way. Depending on the angle you look at a bait there is going to be a different appearance in size. Later today when I have time I'll try and illustrate my point through a few photos.

K_Mac reply :

Quote
I would rather eat dirt than fish
a three inch Senko.

What about a 2" shallow running crankbait or a 3" grub? I have caught some big fish on 100 series Bandit cranks and small grubs. I would rather eat dirt than miss a big bite because I wouldn't downsize my bait. I do admit I've never fished a three inch Senko though. :rolleyes:

gobig reply :

Ok, this is what I mean when I say we tend to think one dimensionally. Pictured are some different baits that vary drastically in size. But when looked at from different angles they are not really that different in apparent size. I believe this is the reason a 1lb fish will bite an 8in bait. I think it also makes for a good argument that northerns will eat bigger baits.

This is a 9.5in Baitsmith Mag trout and a 5in Mattlures ultimate gill.

In this picture from the side the Baitsmith looks huge compared to the gill.

Now imagine both baits are swimming directly towards you. How big is that 9in bait now? Is it possible that a 2lber could try to eat a 9.5in bait from this perspective?

What about a fish feeding up or down? I know almost everyone here uses or has used senkos at one time or another. This is the profile of a 8in Hud next to a 7in senko.

Here is a look at a 5.5in shell cracker compared to a regular spook. From this perspective the shell cracker looks huge compared to the spook.

Both of these are top water baits, here is more or less what they look like from the fishes perspective.

slonezp reply :

gobig, You took all the fun out of this thread by making too much sense.

deep reply :

Excellent demonstration gobig; although the concept isn't new to readers of BBZ.

I thought about something else too. Bass don't rely only on vision, and a 8" hudd definitely moves way more water than a big senko. Maybe we need to take that into account as well. On that note, what do you think of a hudd 68 vs the regular 8 incher? Just trying to get a discussion going.

I don't fish the 8 incher a lot, mostly due to it getting snagged when I rig it BB style (the lakes I fish are very different from your California lakes). A member at SBN showed me a more snagless way to rig it, and I'm looking forward to try that out.

gobig reply :

Quote
Excellent demonstration gobig; although the concept isn't new to readers of BBZ.

This idea definitely did not originate from me. As mentioned its a BBZ concept. I do not know if the idea originated from Bill Siemantle or someone before him, it really doesn't matter. What matters is awareness, how does this concept apply to different situations? Everything I have learned from Bill is logical, but you are required to think.

Quote
I thought about something else too. Bass don't rely only on vision, and a 8" hudd definitely moves way more water than a big senko. Maybe we need to take that into account as well.

Everything needs to be taken into account. Water displacement is definitely a factor. The more information we can process the better.

Quote
what do you think of a hudd 68 vs the regular 8 incher?

I have not spent enough time with the 68 yet. I did pick up 4 on the last run though.

Quote
I don't fish the 8 incher a lot, mostly due to it getting snagged when I rig it BB style

Are you rigging the bait exactly like Butch says? hook brand, size and all? and if you are what are you snagging on? Weeds? wood? rocks?

deep reply :

On 11/12/2011 at 5:14 AM, gobig said:

Are you rigging the bait exactly like Butch says? hook brand, size and all? and if you are what are you snagging on? Weeds? wood? rocks?

Chunk rocks; fishing from the shore.

The new ideas I got seem promising though. It's similar to the BB rig, except that it uses a smaller gammie instead of the VMC, and puts it further back. Also, I was told to use the ROF5, not the 12 or 16. Let's see how it goes.

WRB reply :

Good thread and excellent lure size presentation.

Lure profile isn't always 2 dimensional, it's 3 dimensional and moving. The side profile with swimbaits is important due to the slower swimming motion allows the bass to look it over from below or trailing from behind or attacking from the side.

Swimbaits that are heavy and sink would difficult to swim uphill from shore. The lighter the weight and slower it sinks will keep the swimbait suspended and out of the rocks.

Butch's rig uses VMC's because they bend easily, you can use a small torch and heat a Gammy or Owner to make the same bend.

From shore I would suggest using a giant worm 12" to 16"

with a light weight and work it uphill, can be just as effective as a swimbait. You can also work a wake bait like a Plunker or a surface swimbait effectively from the bank.

Tom

PS; this years BAT is the 19-20 Nov with lots of new toys .

Big Fish Rice reply :

Excellent thread and one that I will continue to watch closely.

I caught many respectable fish on River2Sea's S-Waver this year, which is a 6" swimbait. Most of the fish were in the 2-3lb range, while on many occasions, I had fished the 8" Huddleston without results.

I completely agree with a bass being able to eat 1/3 of its weight in a single meal because I witnessed it many times this past year. What's most interesting to me is that I have caught several 5-7lb fish on jigs, that also had a look at the 8" Huddleston.

The biggest difference is that most of the time, my jigs were "soaking". Left to die for several minutes, while I usually kept the Hudd moving at a slow pace.

Maybe the Hudd needs to sit in place for a bit. You guys have me thinking about some new presentations for next season.

Hooligan reply :

Gobig- Well thought, but flawed in terms of apparent size. The water displacement is going to be dramatically different for one versus the other. It simply isn't a valid point of reference as to the size indication and feeding.

gobig reply :

Quote
Gobig- Well thought, but flawed in terms of apparent size. The water displacement is going to be dramatically different for one versus the other. It simply isn't a valid point of reference as to the size indication and feeding.

You have to think in broader terms. For one I don't think fish have the ability to reason. Water displacement is part of what gets their attention and they respond visually. Your right in the sense that a 12in trout is going to displace more water than a single 3in shad. But Shad tend to swim in schools. so how many shad does it take to displace more water than a single trout? Is is possible to have larger amounts of water displacement associated to smaller bait? The 8in Tiger tube was designed to imitate a small pod of darting shad.

Quote
Maybe the Hudd needs to sit in place for a bit. You guys have me thinking about some new presentations for next season.

IMO your headed in the right direction. Your swimbait just like your jig is a tool, not a technique. All of the techniques (swimming, burning, stroking, dragging etc...) you apply to jigs can be applied to swimbaits. I think in most situations swimbaits are fished way to fast by people. You can fish the right swimbaits stupid slow.

Quote
The new ideas I got seem promising though. It's similar to the BB rig, except that it uses a smaller gammie instead of the VMC, and puts it further back. Also, I was told to use the ROF5, not the 12 or 16. Let's see how it goes.

Going to an ROF5 will make a big difference. The bait tends to glide more where the ROF12 tends to dig in. We fish a alot of chunck rock out here. The only place we get a ton of weeds in NorCal is the Delta and Clearlake. Even in those places you end up fishing alot of rock.

I would try and stick with Butches rig to the T if you can. I am sure you saw his post on the other site. There is more to why he uses the VMC then being able to bend the hook. It has to do with the way the hook lays flat on the bait, he feels it looks more natural. He also says the Owner has to much of an inward bend near the hook point which accounts for missed fish because of the way the hook sits on the bait with his rigging style. He claims the Gamakatsu has to small of a barb that allows fish to throw the bait easier.

NBR reply :

I agree that thet eat what ever they can get in their mouths. Years ago I was at a lodge on I think the Chippawa Flowage in WI. They had a fish tank in the bar that held about a 10" bass, a shiner about 5" and a smaller catfish. We were there for a few days and on the second day the shiner disappeared. It was easily found since it stuck out of the basses mouth from in from of the shiners vent. The owner said the bass would digest the shiner and then in a few days start to go after the little cat fish.

Many of us have seen pictures of northern pike swallowed by a bigger one. IMHO fish eat what they capture soometimes to their detriment. How many times have you caught a dink on a large crankbait.

BrianSnat reply :

Quote
I agree that thet eat what ever they can get in their mouths.

And then some. A few weeks ago I caught a 3" smallmouth on a 4 1/2" crankbait.

Randall reply :

Biggest difference between the two strains is how active and agressive they are. Florida Strain fish tend to be a lazy energy conserving fish while Northern Strain Fish tend to be more aggressive and active. Bass aren't smart but conditioned to do certain things because of thier enviroment and genitic makeup. This includes being conditioned to eat certain size forage based on the enviroment and genetic makeup. Northern strain fish do not tend to be as efficient from my observation and that may have something to do with prefered forage size from fish that survive to be a larger fish. Try to eat too many large meals with failure means a short life and low survival rates for those fish. Florida Strain fish conserve more energy and feed more at optimum times so they could be more efficent so they could survive better on larger forage.

I get to fish different lakes with many different types of forage and strains of bass and have developed my own theorys as to bait selection for each lake. For example I fish a lake that has herring, shad and trout and northern strain fish to the best of my knowledge. The fish feed on all three types of forage but the diet of the fish changes season to season. Right now they are stocking trout and the diet of the bigger fish consists of mostly trout in the larger sizes that are being stocked. If I were to go there I would use baits like a huddleston that swim like a trout in a eight inch size. Now if I were to go to the same lake in late spring/early summer during the herring and shad spawn I would use smaller baits in the six inch size because those fish including the big ones will be feeding more on herring and shad.

For another example I have noticed in lakes with no shad but stocked trout the prefered forage size is larger and the fish feed on the trout more with the other main option for forage being bluegill. Add shad to the equation and the fish start to prefer shad more often over the larger trout.

Something else to think about is survival rates that are related to forage size. I know a lake in NC stocked with trout that has nothing but northern strain bass. Bass there have a very poor survival rate from the spawn in part due to the average forage size and poor fertility of the lake in general. The lake also has a lot of huge bluegills but very few small ones. If I go there I use nothing but 8-10 inch swimbaits and may only catch one fish every few trips but it will be 8-10lbs in most cases.

So, I don't think you can choose bait size based just on the size or strtain of fish you want to catch. It takes doing some homework and figuring out which bait size and type of bait the fish are targeting. Sometimes it's just more efficient for a fish to eat more four to six inch fish rather then one eight to ten inch fish. Sometimes one eight to ten inch fish is more efficient.

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