Spiral Wrap Question 2024

BDfishing reply :

I know I'm new & getting a head of myself but I like them, I have 6 Bud Erhardt Fishing Sticks & like them. Anyone have any go links or videos on how to build them, how to, guide spacing etc.

Thanks

BDfishing reply :

How do u set the spine? Like a spinning rod

.ghoti. reply :

Current thinking is that the spine is irrelevant. Build on the straightest axis instead. All blanks have a bit of curve. I set mine so it curves up when with a casting reel at top dead center. Then let the weight of the guides, wraps and finish help to pull it a bit straighter.

FishinDaddy reply :

http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/148923-2015-rod-builds/

I built a spiral wrapped rod in this thread. It might help.

MickD reply :

The spiral rods I've built have been the "simple spiral," and they work fine. All you do is set up all the guides as you would for a regular casting rod, all on top, do the stress test and test casts for spacing. THEN reposition all but the rear guide at 180 degrees. Don't move any other guides for rotation or axial position. Now add the lowest (OK to bend a guide) double foot guide of the same size as guide #2 at 90 degrees half way between #1 and #2. Your new guide's function is simply to keep the line off the blank, so the lower you can get it the better.

There are other layouts, but most builders believe the simple spiral works as well as any of the others, and it does not have the problem of loading the line to one side of the spool of the reel as some designs with the first guide not at 0 degrees rotation sometimes do.

The second (90 degree) guide can go either to the right or left, but I prefer it to go on the right side so that when my rod is resting on the boat casting platform that guide is up instead of down (with the reel handles up). If you have left handed reels you may want to go the other way to keep that 2nd guide off the casting platform.

Many believe spirals cast farther than conventional; I think the only advantages are in eliminating any torque induced from the guides on top of a bent rod (felt as twisting torque in the hand) and eliminating any tendency of a highly bent rod to twist. However, since we are using such small guides these days, I don't even feel any torque on conventional builds. I build conventional simply because I don't feel the torque and I don't like the looks of a spiral wrap.

If you haven't experienced a spiral wrap, I suggest you try it. You may find they have compelling advantages, as many people do.

MickD reply :

http://rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,241080,241080#msg-241080

Check this string of posts out. A lot of background/info.

adam lancia reply :

Other advantages I have read about simple spirals is that you can often get away with 1 guide less, and since the guides are on the bottom of the rod you don't have to be concerned about the line passing under the blank with a deep bend in the rod (as with a conventional guides2 on top layout). I'm purposely holding on to a couple of 2 piece rods to try a lazy mans simple spiral out, just have to rotate the tip section and slap a bumper guide on.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

You can even skip the bumper. On a bass rod there's no worry is a long friction generating run by the fish. Some builders just put a coat of epoxy the protect the finish.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

OP: I do both Revolver and simple spirals depending on the build. Lighter rods where casting is optimum I use the revolver. This setup uses the most natural line flow. On heavier rods for jigs and flipping I go with a simple.

S Hovanec reply :

My last 4 or 5 rods, I have eliminated the bumper guide and gone straight from 0° to 180°. NO ill effects were seen.

.ghoti. reply :

On 9/6/2015 at 10:01 AM, S Hovanec said:
My last 4 or 5 rods, I have eliminated the bumper guide and gone straight from 0° to 180°. NO ill effects were seen.

I'veoften wonderd how that would work out over the long haul. Did you apply any finish to the area between, where the line comes in cantact with the blank? Might be a place for Permagloss. I'm gonna have to try that.

S Hovanec reply :

On 9/6/2015 at 10:40 PM, .ghoti. said:
I'veoften wonderd how that would work out over the long haul. Did you apply any finish to the area between, where the line comes in cantact with the blank? Might be a place for Permagloss. I'm gonna have to try that.

I did not. I feel epoxy is too soft and Permagloss would melt the paint right off a St. Croix. I'm sure over time, dirty line will scratch the paint.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/6/2015 at 10:01 AM, S Hovanec said:
My last 4 or 5 rods, I have eliminated the bumper guide and gone straight from 0° to 180°. NO ill effects were seen.

sounds sketchy ! i would think with the line rubbing on the blank and such a radical change in line direction that you you would drastically slow the line down it's path and lose casting distance and cosmetically damage the rod blank . i would never think one would even try that ..

S Hovanec reply :

It's a lot less radical change than the simple spiral. Under load, it's even less dramatic.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/8/2015 at 7:44 AM, S Hovanec said:
It's a lot less radical change than the simple spiral. Under load, it's even less dramatic.

going from stripper guide at 0 degrees atop the blank to 180 degrees at the bottom of the blank is not radical ??? what about the line wrapping the blank for that 180 degrees ???

S Hovanec reply :

It's much more of a direct route than going to a bumper guide that stands off the blank at 90°. Not saying its for everyone, but it works.

Take one of your bumper spiral rods and skip the bumper sometime. You'll see its not as crazy as you're making it out to be. Take a blank that has a diameter of 0.5" at the point of where a bumper would be located. By not using a bumper, the line deviates 0.25" around a round surface at a shallow angle. Add the bumper. Now it has to travel through a guide that's at a greater distance from the centerline of the blank, creating an angle point in the line path. If I get a chance, I'll snap a couple pics illustrating the line path.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

The line goes fr 0 to 180 either way. What Scott's saying is that the area of line contact is insignificant and even more insignificant under load. The transition guide bears no load at all its just a buffer. This is just one of the multiple ways to skin this cat.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/8/2015 at 11:05 AM, S Hovanec said:

It's much more of a direct route than going to a bumper guide that stands off the blank at 90°. Not saying its for everyone, but it works.

Take one of your bumper spiral rods and skip the bumper sometime. You'll see its not as crazy as you're making it out to be. Take a blank that has a diameter of 0.5" at the point of where a bumper would be located. By not using a bumper, the line deviates 0.25" around a round surface at a shallow angle. Add the bumper. Now it has to travel through a guide that's at a greater distance from the centerline of the blank, creating an angle point in the line path. If I get a chance, I'll snap a couple pics illustrating the line path.

i would appreciate pictures !!! for how i'm picturing it and to my way of how it would work , makes me think you lost your mind !! :eyebrows:

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/9/2015 at 1:26 AM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:
The line goes fr 0 to 180 either way. What Scott's saying is that the area of line contact is insignificant and even more insignificant under load. The transition guide bears no load at all its just a buffer. This is just one of the multiple ways to skin this cat.

Mike you lost me in this !! i'm waiting for pictures , videos , something !!!

S Hovanec reply :

It'll be a few days for pics. I have some rods to put finish on that need delivered this weekend.

.ghoti. reply :

Just did a little experiment on a chunk of scrap blank. One thin coat of FlexCoat lite, that I let cure for three days. Put a coat of Permagloss over the epoxy. Looks like it has set up hard, with no effect on the epoxy. My next build is a jerkbait rod. I'll be leaving off the bumoer guide, and substituting the two layer finish application. Won't take long; I have the grip built, the reel seat trimmed, and static testing done. It will take some time to see how well this works over the long haul. Be next year some time before I can make that call. Gonna need to fish it for a while to see.

I'll tell you what, pgersumky; I received a lot of great advice from Mr Hovanec lately. All of which has been spot on.

I also have another plan to try. Bought the materials to do it, and plan to remove the bumper from my new bait finesse stick, and try it out. No details at this time. I want to see if I can make it work before I report on the method. Don't want to look stupid if it doesn't work. ( I know; too late )

S Hovanec reply :

The beauty of it is, if you don't like it, you can add the bumper later.

.ghoti. reply :

On 9/9/2015 at 9:20 PM, S Hovanec said:
The beauty of it is, if you don't like it, you can add the bumper later.

That's the beauty of building your own. I can experiment, and none of my failures ever need to see the light of day.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

don't get me wrong , i'm not disagreeing with his methology , i just need to ''see'' it !! cause i doubt it , doesn't make it wrong ....

.ghoti. reply :

On 9/10/2015 at 12:58 AM, pgersumky said:
don't get me wrong , i'm not disagreeing with his methology , i just need to ''see'' it !! cause i doubt it , doesn't make it wrong ....

Ah, sorry. Didn't mean to call your judgement into question. It's hard to convey tone in a post, and easy to read something in it that was not intended.

I'm like you; I need to see it sometimes before I can buy into it. That's why I'm gonna try it.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

That's exactly what I said in a phone chat. It's much simpler viewed than explained. One thig getting lost in the translation is the difference between a Simple Spiral and a Revolver (1 or none bumper vs a series of transition guides)

Big Bait Fishing reply :

From all this , I'll stick to a slow transition , 3 bumper guides work for me especially since I use longer rods that allow plenty of running guides .

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/10/2015 at 2:21 AM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:
That's exactly what I said in a phone chat. It's much simpler viewed than explained. One thig getting lost in the translation is the difference between a Simple Spiral and a Revolver (1 or none bumper vs a series of transition guides)

Yeah even though you gave a good explanation, still just doesn't make sense

FishinDaddy reply :

On 9/10/2015 at 5:36 AM, pgersumky said:
Yeah even though you gave a good explanation, still just doesn't make sense

That's cause you're not thinking 4th dimensionaly...

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 9/10/2015 at 7:30 AM, FishinDaddy said:
That's cause you're not thinking 4th dimensionaly...

FloridaFishinFool reply :

A lot of interesting information for sure. I have been constructing my own spiral wrap rods for years and in practice I keep changing with each new rod done in a spiral wrap.

I read all these formula's people use which do work, but not all rods are the same and one formula may not be ideal for every rod.

On my latest spiral wrap I just finished today, I did something a little bit different because the rod told me to make the change on the 90 degree guide. I put the rod under load and watched the spiral transition change because of a slight curve in the rod shifted the angle the line flowed through the guide under load, so to straighten this out I had to readjust the 90 degree guide to closer to 100 degrees.

I have build spiral wraps in several different ways with the first guide at 0 degrees, the next at 90 and third at 180. And I have even used up to 4 guides in the spiral wrap, but today I only use 3. (And for the record as mentioned in this thread, I am not one of those people who would just use two guides and let the line rub on the rod. Not me, but to each their own if they like it.

I prefer 3 guides, and the rod I did today was more like 10 degrees for the first guide, 100 degrees for the second, and 170 for the third with the last 10 degrees between 3 and 4th guide out. I suppose technically it is a 4 guide approach but really seems like 3.

When I approach doing a spiral wrap the first thing I do is a bend test on the rod blank and determine where the rod really begins to bend under load, and I look and see where the rod is within 97% straight under load and I mark this spot on the rod blank usually with a piece of tape.

This boundary tells me that all of the guides north of the mark should be on the under side of the rod, and the guides South of this mark towards the reel can be on top of the rod blank. And usually my spiral wrap around will have this mark about in the middle of the spiral wrap.

As I put the guides on a rod I usually start with the underside guides, the ones I know have a fixed specific location and I work my way back to the marked boundary between the bend under load and the straight part of the rod under load. All but the last guide on the bottom will be epoxied into place. I will then usually put the tip on so the top of the rod is done.

Next I will put the last 3 guides on and not put any epoxy on them at this time. This allows me the opportunity to adjust their angle to the ideal locations so I can visually judge the angle of transition in the line from guide to guide. The ideal "look" would be a straight line spiral, but each guide is actually putting a small degree corner or angle in the line and what I want to do is divide out this angle evenly throughout the spiral so that there is not a larger degree of turn in one section of guides to the next.

You can't do this sort of thing on paper. There is no real formula for it either. Every rod bends differently so the guide placement for each rod will or should be slightly different from one rod to the next.

As I tweak the angle of the guides while under load with line in them as if I had a fish on the hook, I look at how the line transitions from guide to the next and what I want to see is the line under load pulled to the center of the bottom of the guide. I don't want it to ride up the sides of the guide when under load.

If you have the angle of the guide too much to one side under load the line will ride up that side and if at too much of angle in the other direction the line will ride up the other side under load as the line is trying to pull itself straight I want to adjust the angle of the guide to be centered on where the line would pull straightest if that makes any sense.

Ideally when I look at the line under load wrapping around the rod, I want each guide to be in alignment with the line, not the line in alignment with the rod which could be pulled too much to one side or the other as it spiral wraps around- especially under load. Casting is not under load in my opinion, only simulating fish on the hook is bending the rod same as it would with a fish on the hook is how I want to visually watch the line flow through the guides.

On to another subject... should the first guide be 0 degrees or not? I am well aware of how line on a reel can be pulled heavier to one side if not going in and out of the reel straight out the front, but there is a little room for play in this area and I have experimented with it and I have concluded that the first guide can be as much as 10 degrees off center without a line stacking problem in the reel.

I started down this road because the very first spiral wrap rod I ever saw I bought at a garage sale 20 years ago, and even then the rod was and seemed old. It is a custom rod in every sense of the word. There is not one word anywhere on the rod and it has a hodge podge mix of guides used on it, but it is a true spiral wrap, but it did not have a first guide at the 0 degree or even the 10 degree position. It only had the 90 degree guide and went immediately to the 180 guides on the bottom. I have used this rod with every baitcast reel imaginable and none of them had a line stacking problem. Not a one of them.

So I know today that my use of the first guide being no more than 10 degrees off center is no where near as extreme as going from the reel itself straight to the 90 degree guide, so 10 degrees off center should not even be an issue for line stacking up on one side of a reel and it has not been an issue for me.

So I now use the strategy of distributing the 180 degrees out over a wider spiral path and adjust the guide placement angles based on how the line is pulled through them under load because that is when it will matter most. If it is a tad off when casting so be it. Not an issue. The line when casting is far looser and free flowing than tight under load with a bent rod and that is when I want those guides to give me the straightest line in the spiral wrap just like the straight threads wrapping around a screw or bolt. If the line is not straight as it flows through the spiral then every degree it is off and caused to make a sharper and sharper turn is when friction will jump up. I want each guide to experience about the same load when under load and not just go with some formula on paper that may or may not be right for whatever rod I am wrapping in a spiral wrap.

I hope this makes sense...

If I did the standard 0 degree, 90 degree, and 180 degree and pulled the line tight under load through that, I would see some serious angles in each turn as the line goes through the 0 and makes a hard turn down to the 90 degree and so on. By doing a wider spiral path programmed in the straight portion of the rod under load so it transitions to the underside after the bend begins, the line on my rods follows the absolute straightest path through the guides I can possible give it. So if you were to put a ruler on the tight line under load from the first guide to the 3rd guide it would be darn near ruler straight through the transition.

For my way of thinking this is the most ideal I can strive for.

So in all honesty, my latest rod finished today I said was close to 10 degrees, 100 degrees, and 170 degrees, in reality it could be more like 8 degrees, 97 degrees, and 167 degrees. It is not a specific science of degrees. It is more of a science of how straight can you make the flow of the line through the spiral wrap portion when under load and rod is bending. It has nothing to do with a straight rod with no load and some formula on paper everyone says works. For me, that is just a guide for a starting point. I let the rod and straightest line flow under load show me where the guides should be. Then I epoxy them in place and go fishing with it.

Some of the first rods I did with a spiral wrap were according to the standard 0, 90, and 180 and even some with 4 guides, and today I don't like them as much as the way I do it now. I really like the spiral wrap around to center up on the bend in the rod under load. I don't want the spiral wrap around to be too close to the reel. I want it as far out onto the rod as I can push it and finding that magic spot between the bending rod and straight portion under load is where I want the spiral wrap to do its thing so by the time the line is reaching the bend in the rod under load, it is all suspended under the rod with no twisting to the rod blank at all. It is a smooth straight line transition all the way through the spiral wrap.

I found some images on line to illustrate what I am trying to describe...

This is a good image of a rod under load with a spiral wrap, and in my opinion this is a nicely done spiral wrap, but I wonder if they tested it under load when they epoxied the guides in place???

Take a look at how the line flows from the first guide on the left, the 0 degree guide, look at how it flows through the 2nd guide and to the 3rd guide. Do you see how the 2nd guide is actually now lifting up the line under load?

That 2nd guide could actually be moved to the right just a couple of degrees and it would straighten that line out through this transition under load. You won't find this out with a straight rod under no load and some degrees from a standard formula off some paper somewhere.

If I had built this rod, I would have caught this slight misalignment before those first three guides were epoxied in place. I would have seen this situation and adjusted that 2nd guide to be in line with the tight line and not lifting it under load causing more friction in that guide under load. On my rods I want to be able to put a ruler across 3 guides under load and see a straight tight line no matter how bent the rod is. I want those guides coming into alignment under load, not going out of alignment.

What is happening here is that now that the top end of this rod is being bent and pulled down under heavy loading, it is bending and pulling that 3rd guide down now causing that 2nd guide to carry more weight of the load in the line and making the line make a sharp turn in that one guide. Take the load off this rod that line will straighten back up between the 2nd and 3rd guide. I am saying I want it straight under load. This rod is slightly out of adjustment, but close. Close enough to work, but is it ideal?

In the photo above, ideal would be a straight line, ruler straight tight line under load from the reel to the 3rd guide. End of story. Make that happen. And to do so with what this rod is showing me under load, the first and second guide now under load should be slightly shifted to the right. Both of them- in order to straighten that line out under load through the transition spiral.

This is why I carefully choose the location of where on the rod blank the spiral transition takes place. You can not simply pick a spot at random. You don't do the wrap around in the bend under load and doing all of the wrap around on the straight part of the rod is not ideal either. Use the bend under load in your favor and adjust the guide spacing and angles to take full advantage of the beginning of the bend and use it in helping you create a smooth spiral wrap transition sort of like how a masted sailing ship sails under an arched bridge. Use the arch (bend) in the rod under load as a way of improving line flow around the rod shaft under load. I hope this makes sense!

This is a perfect example of why following degrees off some chart in some book may not be ideal for every rod!

In this image the rod is not under load, but it almost looks like the line is going straight through the first guide and resting on the 2nd guide out from the reel making its spiral wrap from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guide out. It may be an optical illusion, but if the line is resting on the guide insert in that first guide, it appears to be riding up on the left side. If so, that guide could have been tilted over to the left a few more degrees so the line would flow down the center of the guide which is ideal to me and what I strive for.

From this view it almost looks like that first guide is not doing much at all and if removed it does not look like it would have much of an effect on this rod's spiral wrap design. In other words, the 180 degree transition is not evenly spread out from what I see here.

On my rods I want the line under load pulling the guide straight into the rod blank down through the guide stems, not riding up high one side or the other of a guide putting an off-center pull to that guide- a twist pressuring the wrap threads and epoxy sideways under load.

In other words, the guide is preventing the line from pulling straight and rather than that guide be glued in the wrong place, it should be able to adjust to move to where the line pulls straightest and puts the least amount of pressure and friction on each guide. There is an optimal position and it can only be found under load.

This is why I do not epoxy the spiral wrap guides in place until I do a line flow check under load and carefully adjust each guide to its optimum position whatever the degree is- and spacing. Let the rod and line under load show where the truest placement of each guide should be! I know of no better way- not yet anyways...

My .03 cents on it anyways.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

In a simple spiral the second (bumper) guide is just to keep the line off the blank and should not be load bearing. The end result is the straight path you seek from stripper to runner.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 1/6/2016 at 12:45 PM, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

In a simple spiral the second (bumper) guide is just to keep the line off the blank and should not be load bearing. The end result is the straight path you seek from stripper to runner.

Yes sir I said it should not be load bearing if it can be helped, but if the line is putting any pressure on that guide under load when it tightens up and wants to straighten out, I said I would rather that pressure be directed down the guide to the rod, not side to side in any way. I think placement is critical.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

Here is an image of a rod I just finished spiral wrapping yesterday. This rod is a 25 year old rod I retro-fitted as a spiral wrap. I adjusted the guide angles to give me the straightest line flow through the guides under load which is what is important to me more so than when casting.

I do my spiral wraps in such a way that the guides come into alignment when under load. If I aligned them without loading the rod, they would move out of alignment under load as seen in some of the photos I post above.

Notice how straight the line is as it flows through the entire 180 degree spiral wrap portion of my latest project rod. Also notice how the line lays in the bottom center of the guide as it enters into the spiral wrap around. I do not want to see the line off center in the guides riding up on the sides. To me that is a mistake and wrong. All I have to do is slightly adjust the guide according to what the line and rod are telling me where the guide placement should be located and at what angle.

That is 4 guides covering the complete 180 degree wrap around under load and darn near ruler perfect straight through it all! To me this is ideal. Anyone who goes by the book and puts their guides on at 0, 90, and 180 are not doing it to 100% efficiency in my opinion and you will see the line change angle as it flows through the guides like the first image I posted above clearly shows. I strive to avoid this situation in all of my spiral wraps I do myself. It is something I learned only through experience of doing a lot of rods with spiral wraps.

In all honesty I have no idea what the exact angle of each of these guides is and it does not matter. The line itself tells me where the guides go on each rod I do like this, and no two are the same! I am using the beginning of the bend in the rod under load to my advantage in this type of spiral wrapping a rod.

And this is why I do not epoxy the spiral wrap guides until a visual alignment is completed under load only! Then I epoxy them in place.

I am already working on the next rod and waiting on Mudhole to get my new guides in for at least 6 more rods to do before next spring! I am thinking of doing one of them in micro guides...

Big Bait Fishing reply :

i imagine once you use smaller micro guides in a spiral wrap , your transition path will slow down and have less severe transitions than say a rod with larger guides . all my rods(baitcasting) are micro guides ( 3 & 4 sized guides ) with a spiral wrap . even my swimbait rod .

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 1/7/2016 at 4:43 AM, pgersumky said:

i imagine once you use smaller micro guides in a spiral wrap , your transition path will slow down and have less severe transitions than say a rod with larger guides . all my rods(baitcasting) are micro guides ( 3 & 4 sized guides ) with a spiral wrap . even my swimbait rod .

Can you post some images of your spiral wrap rods with micro guides?

The rod above came with one #10 and the rest of the rod with #8 size guides- all on top of course. I reduced the guide size down one step to one #8 and the rest are #6 with a 5.5 tip because they did not have any #6 tips in this brand of guides I chose for this old rod. These are titanium oxide, medium duty guides.

I am sure going with micro guides is going to be a different beast all together to find as close to optimum spiral wrap.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

my swimbait rod - St.Croix Big Nasty , 9' H/F -

# 5 lowrider surf guidedouble foot stripper guide

11 American Tackle Artus heavy duty micro guides , size 4

American Tackle ringlock micro tip top ,size 7/4

Big Bait Fishing reply :

i'll post some better pictures tomorrow

FloridaFishinFool reply :

Looking forward to the photos. I am checking out micro guides now including those you mentioned above that you are using.

So far all I am finding are single foot micro guides. Scratch that... I just found what I was looking for... micro guides with double feet. Fuji makes some and I found a few others...

http://anglersresource.net/MicroGuides.aspx

http://www.acidrod.com/MicroGuides.html

I am thinking I will go with the stronger double foot micro guides.

Fuji BLCAG "Low Rider" Double Foot Guides

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 1/9/2016 at 8:57 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:

Looking forward to the photos. I am checking out micro guides now including those you mentioned above that you are using.

So far all I am finding are single foot micro guides. Scratch that... I just found what I was looking for... micro guides with double feet. Fuji makes some and I found a few others...

http://anglersresource.net/MicroGuides.aspx

http://www.acidrod.com/MicroGuides.html

I am thinking I will go with the stronger double foot micro guides.

Fuji BLCAG "Low Rider" Double Foot Guides

i use them for all my micro guide rods as the stripper guide in size 5

Big Bait Fishing reply :

here's a Fuji BLCAG #5 w/Alconite ring on my St.Croix Legend 9' Big Nasty

Big Bait Fishing reply :

here's the best picture of the transition guides , just remember that this is on a 9 ft. rod , so the transition is pretty slow though the picture doesn't make it appear so !!!

FloridaFishinFool reply :

Thanks for posting those images! I will be using these same double foot guides on my next project rod. Looking forward to it.

But I am curious about something... when any of you build a spiral wrap rod, how do you align the guides? On the acidrod.com website they have some tutorials I have been looking at and I thought I would ask to see how each of you approach guide placement? Do you do it by the book and follow some preconceived degrees and figures in a book? Or do you use alignment tools like this:

When I do a spiral wrap rod, I put all the guides on and the tip, all done by visual alignment only. I use no tools other than letting the rod and line flow under load tell me where the guides should be placed. It is my opinion that facts and figures in books is just a starting point.

I load the rod, and watch the line flow and adjust the angle of each guide to straighten out its flow path under load. I install the guides so that they come into alignment as the rod is loaded up, not out of alignment as the rod is loaded which causes more turns through the guides the farther out of alignment it gets under load.

My goal is to reduce friction as the rod is loaded, not increase it which is what happens the further out of alignment the guides take the line under load causing ever increasing angles of turn through the guides. I see the reverse of this situation. I would rather the guides be slightly out of alignment without a load because casting is a loose line and more forgiving. But when a fish grabs a lure and the line tightens up and rod loads up, I want those guides moving into alignment giving the line the straightest path of flow which offers the least resistance and least amount of friction possible.

The above degree wheel can not give me that information. Books can not give me that information. No two rods bend the same under load, so the formula for guide placement can not be the same for every spiral wrap.

So how do you choose guide placement? By the book?

Has anyone adjusted the guides on their rods under load while observing line flow under load and adjusted the guide placements for the straightest line flow path? I am really curious about this and if anyone does it?

FloridaFishinFool reply :

The above rod was found in a rack of all custom made rods for sale in an un-named business. The price on this custom rod was close to $300.

Do any of you see the obvious mistake on this rod?

Who ever built this rod either does not know math, or they completely missed or slept through spiral wrap rod building class 101.

The whole idea behind a spiral wrap is to wrap the line from the reel on top 180 degrees to the underside of a rod. But for who ever built this rod, they actually made things worse by angling the first guide 10 degrees to the left when they wrapped the rod to the right! They actually added 10 degrees and increased the wrap to 190 degrees! And technically, this guide is now approximately 20 degrees off!

Ooops! And this is a professional custom built rod too! They did some great work and very artsy, but come on, do the math! This is why I do it myself! I do not want the 180 degree wrap to be compressed between 3 or 4 guides. I stretch my 180 degree wrap out from the reel's line guide all the way up the rod to the first 180 degree guide for a smooth slow transition keeping the line flow -under load- as straight as possible through the guides.

I would be ticked off if I had paid a professional hundreds of dollars to screw up like this rod shows! But hey, they can repair this rod by simply changing one guide's angle, but they still have yet to address the spiral wrap compression in such a short space on the rod, nor did I do a bend test on the rod to check wrap guide placement spacing on the rod.

a1712 reply :

That was probably done to help with level line lay on the reel. A spiral wrap has a tendency to stack line on the side of the spool the spiral rotates to. Brian.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 1/12/2016 at 12:26 PM, a1712 said:

That was probably done to help with level line lay on the reel. A spiral wrap has a tendency to stack line on the side of the spool the spiral rotates to. Brian.

exactly what someone did , you will variences of 0 to 10 degrees on the stripper guide . i think that is due to going to much on the second guide ( past 35 degrees )

all my rods the stripper guide is at 0 degrees and i have no line stacking issues ..

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 1/11/2016 at 11:33 PM, FloridaFishinFool said:

The above rod was found in a rack of all custom made rods for sale in an un-named business. The price on this custom rod was close to $300.

Do any of you see the obvious mistake on this rod?

Who ever built this rod either does not know math, or they completely missed or slept through spiral wrap rod building class 101.

The whole idea behind a spiral wrap is to wrap the line from the reel on top 180 degrees to the underside of a rod. But for who ever built this rod, they actually made things worse by angling the first guide 10 degrees to the left when they wrapped the rod to the right! They actually added 10 degrees and increased the wrap to 190 degrees! And technically, this guide is now approximately 20 degrees off!

Ooops! And this is a professional custom built rod too! They did some great work and very artsy, but come on, do the math! This is why I do it myself! I do not want the 180 degree wrap to be compressed between 3 or 4 guides. I stretch my 180 degree wrap out from the reel's line guide all the way up the rod to the first 180 degree guide for a smooth slow transition keeping the line flow -under load- as straight as possible through the guides.

I would be ticked off if I had paid a professional hundreds of dollars to screw up like this rod shows! But hey, they can repair this rod by simply changing one guide's angle, but they still have yet to address the spiral wrap compression in such a short space on the rod, nor did I do a bend test on the rod to check wrap guide placement spacing on the rod.

if you notice , they only used 2 transition guides , i would go no less than 3

FloridaFishinFool reply :

One issue is how close to the reel the first guide is. The faster the action the rod is the farther out the wrap can be located. This makes a difference on how severe the line pulling to one side or the other is.

My first spiral wrap rod is a custom made rod that is now well over 20 years old I purchased at a garage sale. It does not have a 0 degree first guide. It goes from the reel straight to the 90 degree guide and has worked fine for all these years with no line stacking problems at all. So in the real world is this offset first guide in the opposite direction of the spiral really a solution for line stacking? Is this the way to go and it is written in stone or something? Not from what I can tell from my own personal experience.

I also did some searches online for custom rod building and I found that 90 to 95% of the custom rod builders recommend the 0 degree guide, not adding additional degrees the line has to wrap around like this rod shows.

I did find just two custom rod builders who recommend doing what this rod shows, but not to the degree this rod shows which is closer to 10 degrees or more in the opposite direction of the spiral wrap.

So the general consensus on this issue that I could find online, most say the 0 degree guide is fine while less than 10% and probably less than 5% (based on my own search results) suggest a slight offset guide in the opposite direction.

In my own experience, I have yet to have a line stacking problem and I have used more than a dozen different spiral wrap rods with different placements of the first guide from 90 degrees to 0 degrees and now I go with a 10 degree offset but in the same direction as the spiral wrap with no line stacking problems.

So in my opinion, who ever built this rod, made a mistake that in the the real world was not necessary to offset it in the opposite direction of the spiral wrap to the degree to which they did it- which is close to 10 degrees, maybe more. It was not necessary and I consider it a mistake- an unnecessary mistake for a problem that may not even be a problem.

FloridaFishinFool reply :

On 1/12/2016 at 1:26 PM, pgersumky said:

all my rods the stripper guide is at 0 degrees and i have no line stacking issues ..

You said it! 0 degrees and no line stacking issues. So why the additional 10 degrees or so in the wrong direction? Is it really necessary? And is this a guide placement based on theory or reality? You said it above that you don't do it and you don't need it and have no problems. I have said the same thing. And I take it one step further as I go about 10 degrees offset in the direction of the spiral wrap and still have absolutely no line stacking problem what so ever.

So is this rod showing a mistake or the application of an imaginary solution to a potential problem that may not really be a problem?

In my view this rod is showing a mistake that is simply not necessary and could and should be avoided if possible.

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

Test casting an retrieving under load should be a step in the guide placement especially in a spiral wrap. That will tell you if any compensation is needed. Modern reels have such low profiles and narrow spools I rarely need to place the stripper off -0- degrees

basscatcher8 reply :

On 1/9/2016 at 1:21 PM, pgersumky said:

here's the best picture of the transition guides , just remember that this is on a 9 ft. rod , so the transition is pretty slow though the picture doesn't make it appear so !!!

Definitely meant as a compliment and not me trying to take your idea but I've been working on guide placement on a 6' 9" spinnerbait rod for awhile using microguides and I was considering spiral wrapping cause I was having a hard time getting the train right to where I wasn't having the line touch the blank under load. But after seeing your work there I'm seriously thinking about going home and starting over again and doing the spiral. I bought the micro set though that had a 8 then 2 6's and then 8 4's. I'm thinking I can use the 8 and both 6's for the transition and the 4's all the way under the blank.

Big Bait Fishing reply :

On 1/14/2016 at 5:19 AM, basscatcher8 said:

Definitely meant as a compliment and not me trying to take your idea but I've been working on guide placement on a 6' 9" spinnerbait rod for awhile using microguides and I was considering spiral wrapping cause I was having a hard time getting the train right to where I wasn't having the line touch the blank under load. But after seeing your work there I'm seriously thinking about going home and starting over again and doing the spiral. I bought the micro set though that had a 8 then 2 6's and then 8 4's. I'm thinking I can use the 8 and both 6's for the transition and the 4's all the way under the blank.

i would pick up another size 6 guide and have another transition guide . so the 8 as the stripper , three 6's for the transition , 4's out to the tip top .

Delaware Valley Tackle reply :

There's no need for all the different sizes unless you find the progression aesthetically pleasing. On a typical bass Rod you technically don't need anything bigger than the level wind line guide. Generally I use a double foot 6 right into the running guides.

basscatcher8 reply :

On 1/17/2016 at 9:51 AM, pgersumky said:

i would pick up another size 6 guide and have another transition guide . so the 8 as the stripper , three 6's for the transition , 4's out to the tip top .

I was going to go ahead and add the 6 but went out and test casted a few times to see how it was doing and it was working really well so I decided to give it a shot. I know i'll end up building another one of these because I've learned so much from doing this first one.

13261

Spiral Wrap Question 2024

related Rod Building and Custom Rods topic

previous topic

next topic

most viewed Rod Building and Custom Rods topic