Feminized male Bass? 2024
wagn reply :
Found this article on msnbc
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32848267/ns/technology_and_science-science/
What's next crossdressing fish?
Koop reply :
That's pretty interesting... I did not know that.
kms399 reply :
well the american male has been getting more and more feminized I guess the fish are following suit. fish are people too.
mrlitetackle reply :
huh???
thats not good.
what about all municipal water supplies? cause that stuff is inevitably leeching into there as well....
....makes you think twice before drinking the tap water......
Bassn Blvd reply :
Does this mean we need to start using pink worms?
mrlitetackle reply :
QuotePosted by: Bassn Blvd Posted on: Today at 11:02pmDoes this mean we need to start using pink worms?
....and dont forget the matching hooks! 
looking4structure reply :
WOW! That was an interesting article.
whoopbazz reply :
As a a former fish farmer I can say this is an easy thing to do with fish. Sexually reversing fish is a common practice in fish farming. Trout and Tilapia are the two most common.
I sex reversed trout when I was in the biz. The goal was to produce an all female population. And all male in tilapia...these are the prefered sexes to grow in those species. Basically, you collected sperm, hit it with UV light...killing the male DNA. Fertilized the eggs with it giving you an all female popoulation. Another step on down the line is to take a percent of these all females and sex reverse them. You feed them food with Methyl-testosterone on it. These female then developed testes (but no sperm ducts)...and you actually have female sperm (that is sperm with no male DNA). Then you fertilize the eggs with this sperm creating an all female population with this step you know eliminated the UV step for a genertion.
My point is...I wonder if they do this with bass too. Then the bass get stocked. The article says they find males with egg in them...but it makes me wonder.
Oh and by the way the trout and tilapia are safe to consume...other wise the FDA wouldn't let them do it.
tnhiker44 reply :
I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I am willing to bet this is a naturally occurring event. Some 'survival of the species' trait that ebbs and flows in time due to circumstances we know nothing about. Mother Nature tweaking things to ensure survival.... and we want to take a small snapshot, try to explain it as a "new" event, and wrap it up in a cause. The cause in this article was birth control pills.
I ain't buying into that.
gadawgsr1 reply :
MSNBC always bends their stories to fit their purposes. You have to look deeper into their purposes for posting such an article. To them, it is not about the fish at all. They usually have ulterior motives. I would venture to say that the process has less to do with what is in the water than we realize.
done reply :
They absolutely do. I would be interested though in seeing further studies to try to definitely explain this. Is it a fluke brought on by natural forces?, is it pollution?
They do a lot of guessing and conjecture in this article. Way I see it, it is a good starting point for identifying a need for further research to determine the facts behind it.
Raul reply :
QuoteI have absolutely no data to back this up, but I am willing to bet this is a naturally occurring event. Some 'survival of the species' trait that ebbs and flows in time due to circumstances we know nothing about. Mother Nature tweaking things to ensure survival.... and we want to take a small snapshot, try to explain it as a "new" event, and wrap it up in a cause. The cause in this article was birth control pills.I ain't buying into that.
Why aren 't you buying it ? in women it 's birth control pills, in cattle it 's all the hormones used to increase fertility and milk production in the case of cows, sheep and goats, those hormones gotta go somewhere and they leach from the soil ( impregnated with urine ) into the water systems.
Sure, mother nature has it 's ways, some species of fish can change sex ( sea bass, clownfish, freshwater swordfish ) and that trait has a name: protogynous hermaphroditism, but that 's not the rule but a few exceptions.
In cattle there 's syndrome called Freemartinism, when a cow is pregnant with twins and one of them is a male and the other is a female the female is born with male characteristics but it 's sexual organs are not well developed ( genital infantilism ) and the cause of that is the hormones ( testosterone ) released by the male fetus.
burleytog reply :
Maybe they can start competing in the Olympics.
J P reply :
My school is located on the Upper Potomac River - lots of college girls use BC. All toilets flush into the Potomac. Therefore you get tons of male smallmouths with eggs inside. The upper Potomac was one of the first places they discovered this. pretty crazy if you think about the whole concept
tnhiker44 reply :
QuoteWhy aren 't you buying it ?
Why? Because we (humans) have a history of making mountains out of mole hills. Chicken Little syndrome. Global warming? It's CFC's. Fish kills? Gotta be poison. Weird sex organs in fish? Gotta be birth control. We want a simple explanation for every event regardless of it's complexity. We have such a short view of nature in general... in the context of time that is. 1000 years ago we were, for the most part, living in huts and eating bugs and stuff. Now we know why the planet is warming up and why bass have some weird organs. As a whole I consider us very pretentious in regards to our environment. We may mean well, but we actually know very little... and we are darn quick to accept simple answers (especially those which fit agendas). My two cents.
Raul reply :
QuoteQuoteWhy aren 't you buying it ?
Why? Because we (humans) have a history of making mountains out of mole hills. Chicken Little syndrome. Global warming? It's CFC's. Fish kills? Gotta be poison. Weird sex organs in fish? Gotta be birth control. We want a simple explanation for every event regardless of it's complexity. We have such a short view of nature in general... in the context of time that is. 1000 years ago we were, for the most part, living in huts and eating bugs and stuff. Now we know why the planet is warming up and why bass have some weird organs. As a whole I consider us very pretentious in regards to our environment. We may mean well, but we actually know very little... and we are darn quick to accept simple answers (especially those which fit agendas). My two cents.
You don 't buy the birth control pills theory ? dude didn 't you read what a fish farmer replied ? how about reading what a veterinarian says about what hormones can do and are used for, I also worked for several years at Mexico 's fish department, we used hormones ( testoterone ) to grow an all male tilapia population in fish farms. We know when the gonads ( sexual organs ) of tilapia and other fish differentiate ( turning males into males and females into males ) and we can manipulate them to do what we want to do, in this case, we want them all to be males and that what we get after feeding them with testosterone, scientific fact with a very practical purpose.
Fit agendas ? whose agendas ? or it 's just another of those conspiracy theories ?
Tokyo Tony reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy aren 't you buying it ?
Why? Because we (humans) have a history of making mountains out of mole hills. Chicken Little syndrome. Global warming? It's CFC's. Fish kills? Gotta be poison. Weird sex organs in fish? Gotta be birth control. We want a simple explanation for every event regardless of it's complexity. We have such a short view of nature in general... in the context of time that is. 1000 years ago we were, for the most part, living in huts and eating bugs and stuff. Now we know why the planet is warming up and why bass have some weird organs. As a whole I consider us very pretentious in regards to our environment. We may mean well, but we actually know very little... and we are darn quick to accept simple answers (especially those which fit agendas). My two cents.
You don 't buy the birth control pills theory ? dude didn 't you read what a fish farmer replied ? how about reading what a veterinarian says about what hormones can do and are used for, I also worked for several years at Mexico 's fish department, we used hormones ( testoterone ) to grow an all male tilapia population in fish farms. We know when the gonads ( sexual organs ) of tilapia and other fish differentiate ( turning males into males and females into males ) and we can manipulate them to do what we want to do, in this case, we want them all to be males and that what we get after feeding them with testosterone, scientific fact with a very practical purpose.
Fit agendas ? whose agendas ? or it 's just another of those conspiracy theories ?
To play devil's advocate, the agenda I'm sure he's referring to is the environmentalist agenda that goes something like this: evil humans are polluting the rivers which is messing up all the poor fish.
That's the agenda, and to me, it seems to be the case, but who really knows? No one can prove it at this point, I think.
By the way Raul - the term "genital infantilism" made me chuckle. I think I need to grow up.
tnhiker44 reply :
Quotedude didn 't you read what a fish farmer replied ?
Dude, where in my post did I disagree with deliberate manipulation of the reproduction of fish?
Quotehow about reading what a veterinarian says about what hormones can do and are used for, I also worked for several years at Mexico 's fish department, we used hormones ( testoterone ) to grow an all male tilapia population in fish farms.
Again, dude, just where in my post did you find the spot from which to leap to this conclusion from? Just where did I doubt those statements?
The linked article (and again in today's USA Today) made the assumption that this event was naturally occurring due to birth control use. My point, which was rather simple (even for a veterinarian), was that we know much less than we think we do in regards to our effect on nature. DDT causing the decline of Bald Eagles? I can buy into that... the stuff not only causes some types of cancer in humans it contributes other types of cancer as well. Agent Orange causing cancer in Veterans that were exposed to it? I certainly can buy into that... it is one of the most toxic chemicals known to man. But urine with traces of birth control leaching into the groundwater and causing bass to be she-males? Not saying it is impossible, but I think it is very unlikely. Are fish drunk? Stoned? High on prescription meds? Its just as easy to make that assumption as the birth control assumption. (But I am no vet.)
bilgerat reply :
QuoteMy school is located on the Upper Potomac River - lots of college girls use BC. All toilets flush into the Potomac. Therefore you get tons of male smallmouths with eggs inside. The upper Potomac was one of the first places they discovered this. pretty crazy if you think about the whole concept
Doubtful. Discharge from toilets, sinks, etc. do not go from the drain directly into waterways. It goes through sewage treatment plants that for the most part disharge water into waterways that is cleaner than what is naturally in the waterway to begin with.
Frog Turds reply :
treatment plants don't filter out everything...so indeed its passing through along with alot of different pharmaceuticals...besides also farms that use alot of hormones etc...which leech into water ways...
QuoteNaturally occurring estrogens, a family of closely related molecules, can enter the environment from livestock urine and feces. Thehormones in feces and urine of people reach sewage-treatment plants. Synthetic estrogen from birth control pills also turns up in sewage. Small amounts of the chemicals often exit sewage-treatment plants with the treated water. Those plants "are not designed to remove trace pollution," says Jörg E. Drewes, an environmental engineer at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden.
heres a USDA study done here in minnesota on the subject...theres enough scientific data out there if you search...to support that it is unfortunately a fact...not just here but overseas as well...
http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/182387.html
Lund Explorer reply :
Excellent post Hidepounder.
And then add to this the cities such as Grand Rapids, Michigan where an inch of rainfall can cause a spill of up to a million gallons of raw sewage into the Grand River system.
Also, though I can't remember the exact source, I've seen this issue covered in the media prior to this. I think it dealt more with RX drugs that were passing through water treatment plants.
Bobby Uhrig reply :
I try to look at it from a scientific point of view. I have heard of hermaphrodite fish before(both sex )It could be from hormone type pollution but I personally think it could be from mother nature herself.Remember and this is just so some can relate-Remember in Jurassic Park-"Mother Nature always finds a way "They were to produce only one sex dinosaurs - It is true. this is not being a jurk either I have always wondered about gay people-(Not that thats a bad thing) I do not think it is choice but possibly a gene that has gone awry. Possibly eggs in males or vice versa-I don't know if any studies have been conducted.There are reasons for everything that happen on earth-some we will never know-I believe mother nature does these things to ensure survival of species. There now that's a can of worms I opened. Remember I think outside the box-
daviscw reply :
QuoteQuoteMy school is located on the Upper Potomac River - lots of college girls use BC. All toilets flush into the Potomac. Therefore you get tons of male smallmouths with eggs inside. The upper Potomac was one of the first places they discovered this. pretty crazy if you think about the whole conceptDoubtful. Discharge from toilets, sinks, etc. do not go from the drain directly into waterways. It goes through sewage treatment plants that for the most part disharge water into waterways that is cleaner than what is naturally in the waterway to begin with.
Maybe Burley can comment on this, but I don't think the waste water treatments plants can't get rid of the hormones. The UV lights can stop the bacteria and bugs from reproducing, but they don't rid of the chemicals.
Raul reply :
QuoteMaybe Burley can comment on this, but I don't think the waste water treatments plants can't get rid of the hormones. The UV lights can stop the bacteria and bugs from reproducing, but they don't rid of the chemicals.
Ozone can destroy the chemicals.
tnhiker44 reply :
QuoteOzone can destroy the chemicals.
Which chemicals, Doc? I am trying to figure out what your stance is on this subject. By default I have more respect for your insight and input than the dirty guy... but your consecutive responses leave me wondering. I agree that we can manipulate fish... but are we making he-shes on accident? Do you believe in the birth control leaching theory?
J P reply :
QuoteQuoteMy school is located on the Upper Potomac River - lots of college girls use BC. All toilets flush into the Potomac. Therefore you get tons of male smallmouths with eggs inside. The upper Potomac was one of the first places they discovered this. pretty crazy if you think about the whole conceptDoubtful. Discharge from toilets, sinks, etc. do not go from the drain directly into waterways. It goes through sewage treatment plants that for the most part disharge water into waterways that is cleaner than what is naturally in the waterway to begin with.
Mmm not doubtful.. I was being a little sarcastic, but the Potomac is considered one of the dirtiest rivers in the US, especially the Upper and DC, where they are finding all the intersex bass. Of course there is filtering, but lets be honest.. ever heard of a doo-doo pipe? They are all over the Upper Potomac near my school. What comes out of there does not look, or smell good. I am not a ichthyologist, but there are many at my school, and they will tell you that the increasing use of womens birth control is the main reason. There are some other issues like chemicals coming off of certain plastics, but thats small talk. There was an article done in FLW about a year ago on intersex bass in the Upper Potomac. It explained the whole issue pretty well. Well, I am going swimming there today. Hopefully I don't get eggs! 
tyrius. reply :
QuoteDo you believe in the birth control leaching theory?
It's not a theory. It's a proven fact that our drinking water contains estrogen and other pharmaceuticals.
http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=87781
The question that remains is "What is the effect of this on humans, animals, and the environment in general?" There is no question about it's occurrence.
CWB reply :
Don't know how to interpret this. Female bass grow bigger. Doesn't do any good if they can't reproduce. Another sign of how we are messing up our planet. I could see this happening in San Francisco 
but seriously it's scary what's going on with our planet. Probably due to Global Warming Further research is definitely needed. Better pollution control would help also. I noticed the article mentioned the incidence was highest in the Southeast. Possibly higher water temps and pollution due to population are contributors.
Raul reply :
QuoteQuoteOzone can destroy the chemicals.
Which chemicals, Doc?
Proteins, hormones ( natural or analogs ) are proteins and ozone denaturalizes them.
Crabcakes reply :
I know a little bit about this issue but I'm not any be all end all expert. I'll try and share some of what I've learned though.
There is not at this point any concrete evidence to suggest that reproductive success of smallmouth bass is being reduced by this trend in the Potomac. There could be a link found in the future but the evidence isn't conclusive at this time. It's unclear how much of the occurence of intersex fish is natural.
That being said, there's really alot of evidence to suggest this issue could be important and is not adequately studied. I think it's going to come up more and more in the next few years. The way the endocrine system works means that a huge variety of chemicals can interfere with hormone reception and other processes. Synthetic estrogens from birth control are not the only chemicals that can have an effect. Pesticides, fire retardants chemicals in plastics and literally thousands of others can too. It tends to be a problem of chronic exposure over time, especially when an organism is in the dvelopmental stages.
The endocrine system is also pretty similar among vertebrates. There is a frequently cited study that found a strong connection between the levels of pthalates (a chemical in plastic bottles) in the mother and subtle female-like changes to the male childrens genitalia in humans.
As to the point about sewage treatment it's my understanding that hormones are not filtered out of water but I am not an expert in this area. However, I do know there is a greater incidence of intersex fish in the Upper Potomac than downstream of the Blue Plains water treatment plant . This is theorized to relate to a greater amount of runoff from agriculture and livestock around the upper part of the river but this isn't proven.
Either way as stated by others, estrogens and other hormones can certainly cause radical changes in the sexual development of fish and there are certainly hormones in our drinking water. What this really means for us and other organisms is less clear.
Bobby Uhrig reply :
Very well written MD
iceintheveins reply :
Colorado's Yampa River is my home stream. It's filled with 2 - 4 pound smallies and is one of the West's best smallie rivers. Unfortunately the US Fish and Wildlife and the Colorado Division Of Wildlife have now removed and killed over 50,000 smallmouth from the river. It's still great fishing, but these government jerks just kill these fish and throw them up on the banks to rot because the river used to be home to suckers and chubs that they are now trying to save just because "they are native". They blame the introduction of smallmouth for reductions the sucker and chub population, even though they were decimated BEFORE smallmouth ever arrived.
Now something must be up with the water that is likely causing the suckers and chubs to be incapable of reproduction and causing abnormalities in the smallmouth population. We anglers always knew it was something else, not our gamefish, that caused these suckers and chubs to vanish.
iceintheveins reply :
All I know is that the smallmouth on the Yampa are reproducing VERY WELL, and that the killings aren't working to reduce numbers. In fact, numbers of the suckers and chubs they want to save HAVE NOT increased one bit since they started killing as many bass, pike, and catfish as they can in Western Colorado's rivers. >
Dogooder reply :
QuoteAll I know is that the smallmouth on the Yampa are reproducing VERY WELL, and that the killings aren't working to reduce numbers. In fact, numbers of the suckers and chubs they want to save HAVE NOT increased one bit since they started killing as many bass, pike, and catfish as they can in Western Colorado's rivers. >
They are probably reproducing so well because there is less competition among smallmouth since some individuals are being removed. Reduce a system below carrying capacity and the bass will respond with better reproduction and better growth of remaining individuals.
We should just kill all fish that don't matter. Anything that is not a bass goes. Chubs, suckers, minnows, darters, gar, bowfin, etc. Who needs them? I'm sure that it will not affect any populations of remaining fish. All money should just be spent on raising and stocking more bass. It's not very cost-effective, wastes most of the money from natural resources agencies, and usually does not work, but it shuts anglers up, so let's just do that.
Basser714 reply :
I didnt even have to read the link. Living in Potomac, i have heard this disturbing news long ago. The river going through our nations capital is one of the more polluted in the country. Ironic isn't? They dont even test the drinking water in montgomery county. The most recent test in DC Found ~6 drugs in DC tap water: Carbamazepine Monensin Naproxen Sulfamethoxazole the most notable. What drinking DC water does to your body... is that nature's fault? Well whose fault is it?
No matter the cause, one cannot deny the horrible water quality in our country. And it is deteriorating. You can blame MSN, but that is old news in these parts. I wont belabor the recent warning to not eat strippers out of the bay because of the high mercury content.
Lets wise up and not blame the fish. Everyone knows the species doesnt need dual organs to survive. Thus its probably not their doing. Nature doesnt turn the key on stuff like that, and if so, not when its not needed nor that quickly. Being a medicationation does have its downfalls and thats a tough pill for some to swallow.
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