need legal info debate 2024

rvrnr64 reply :

First and foremost let me say I cringe when I see a bunch of bass being slain. I am pro catch and release all the way. With that being said we must look at what she did and was asking. She did try to check on the regulations but couldn't find anything. I'm having the same problem trying to find out if I can use a gas motor on a certain body of water that isn't posted as to either way. Also this is a "private lake" which means none of us here will ever probably be able to fish there. The people that should be disturbed are the other private owners of this lake but if this guy doesn't care that they took all those fish maybe the other owners don't care. I think we as true catch and release fisherman should educate not scorn people for their ignorance. Is there anyone out there that started this sport knowing all about "c-n-r". I sure didn't. At the time I started fishing when I was a kid I thought fish were an endless supply of food but now I get my fish from Kroger and throw everything back. My point is we may have lost an opportunity to teach someone about the reason for "c-n-r" by ripping her a new a__ hole and therefore lost a potential member that could spread the word to her friends that did one of the things we hate most. I saw a guy with 6 nice smallies on a stringer the other day and my heart dropped but he was legal so I couldn't report him or say anything.

Low_Budget_Hooker reply :

Taking 30 fish in one shot, regardless of the specie, from any lake, is unethical. It doesn't take a law book to figure that one out.

moloch16 reply :

Bass are voracious spawners, harvesting a few bass will not hurt anything. Sometimes it's even helpful.

A lot of 'private lakes' are really farm ponds. If you ask the farmer to fish his pond he'll immediately assume you plan to eat the fish. Catch-and-release isn't in his vocabulary because he's a farmer and everything he does is related to producing food.

So many people on this forum think eating a bass is such a terrible thing to do because we are so removed form the food chain. We can buy fish from the super market but do you think the super market fish grow on trees?

Low_Budget_Hooker reply :

1. Most fish in the market come from a farm. Places designed to produce a regulated, controlled and monitored amount of food.

2. Taking 1 fish is not as big a deal. We are talking about 25 fish from 1 farm pond.

As for eating this fish, sure, with a license, you are allowed to keep whatever your state creel is.

And yes, it is true that many ponds/lakes can benefit from a selective harvest, such as stunted lakes. These fish are not stolen (any amount of fish taken that is above and beyond your state creel) for a party, they are brought to ponds and lakes that need more of that size fish. That's why this type of transplanting is done by the professionals that work for your state office.

senile1 reply :

I haven't read the legal info thread since I posted on it yesterday so I'm not sure if it got out of hand. In my post I believe I walked the fine line between castigating them and educating them. If an angler is within creel limits they are within the law. Otherwise, the courts will punish them if caught, plain and simple. As LBH stated, keeping 25 fish of any species is unethical. If posters gave advice, while at the same time complaining about the anglers' ethics, this would be an appropriate response in my book.

grimlin reply :

The limit here for yellow perch is 30.Was 40 last year...virus hit us pretty hard.

I see nothing wrong with catching 30 fish if it's within limit and law.Some people stock their fridges and don't alway fish.

Ever watch commerical fishery?They take them by the thousands...now that's unethical....

FatBoy reply :

Here's the deal...

1. She puts out a hunting/fishing magazine online, so these people are not new to fishing. This is not a case of someone new to the sport not knowing about C and R.

2. If she had posted her story and then said "Man, we screwed up. I'll never do that again. Just thought y'all should be aware of the law so the same doesn't happen to you." that would be a totally different thing. But that's not what happened. Instead she tells her story then asks for advice on how to get out of it.

This is kind of like getting arresting for DUI and then going to a Mothers Against Drunk Driving website asking for advice on how to get a light sentence!!!

Jig Man reply :

I have 12 ponds and was thinking about stocking them. I had a conservation biologist come and take a look. He told me that in order to keep a balance I would need to harvest 21 bass per acre of water each season and never ever throw a perch back.

grimlin reply :

True,i see where you are somewhat coming from in a point of view...but still...public lakes and private ponds are completely different.Apprently they didn't know about private pond rules.They should have looked into it before they fished it...i'll 100% completely agree with that.It happens,it was a mistake.She did mention they'll just have to take the punishment and live and learn.But if they looked and couldn't find anything on private rules..then it's the fishery department that needs to figure out how to inform people better.

This isn't and can't be compared to a drunk driver going to a MADD website asking for advice...i think you went a little overboard on the comparison there.Law specially clear about "don't drink or drive drunk".I want to know how many guys here drink and then head home on a party half buzzed?If you drink i can tell you right now you've drove drunk.It takes one beer to be over the limit now.Plus we are talking about human lives here being put in danger.

I lost a friend to a drunk driver....so yeah....ain't gonna comment anymore on this i'm done. :-/

IdahoLunkerHunter reply :

Quote
Taking 30 fish in one shot, regardless of the species, from any lake, is unethical. It doesn't take a law book to figure that one out.

LBH... Do you believe this true for pan fish etc. There is a moderate over population with crappie in our lake. Year after year for about 5-6 years, me and a couple of friends go out in the spring and harvest crappie. We will fish 4-5 weekends and pull about 70-80 a day and keep about 50, there is no limit on crappie in our lake. Practically every cast you have a fish on. We don't keep any under 10", the filet isn't very big if you do. I know many people that do the exact same thing. When you can throw a jig out every single cast and hook something there is an over population issue that pops up. Our lake also has over 120 miles of shoreline and I don't even know the acreage but it's the second biggest lake on the west coast. I know there are over 50 sloughs just on the river and only 10 or so get fished during this time, the prime habitat for crappie during the spawn.

A farm stocked pond which is probably on a couple arces, pulling these kinds of numbers I do have a problem. The issue of hurting the spawn and overall habitat of the pond is definately at risk. People that do these sort of things, and then plea the "I didn't know card" should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. There is a reason why there are state fish and game departments for this exact reason. If there is always a question, always ask before you assume.

Now bass, I catch and release everything I catch just as many people from this forum do. The following post also raises a little insight:

Quote
So many people on this forum think eating a bass is such a terrible thing to do because we are so removed form the food chain. We can buy fish from the super market but do you think the super market fish grow on trees?

We don't think that we are removing them from the food chain. It's just how our psyche is. We, or atleast I do, believe the fish I catch will get bigger and I would rather have the opportunity to catch him later or have another angler have the same enjoyment that I did when I caught it. It is simple fishing ettiquite when speaking about bass fishing. Bass fishing is great and the best fish to catch in my opinion. Friends ask me why I don't keep the fish I catch, the simple explanation is to let them get bigger and I want someone else to have the same experience that I had when I caught it. I have turned about 4-5 friends into catch-and-release fisherman when speaking about bass. Or "there are many more fish that taste better than bass".

Well thats my opinion, I shame on the guys for pulling that many bass out of their habitat. You should have Known your laws and regulations and I hope the right actions are taken by the court system. Ignorance is no excuse for poor judgement.

SENKOSAM reply :

Fish management for any body of water is a tricky balencing act and few anglers know the health of the fishery. Those who always catch fish feel the fishery is good shape; those who have sporadic catches might feel the water is overharvested. Unfortunately the state doesn't have the resources to shock smaller or waters with private access and only those who fish the water most have an idea of it's fish quality and quantity. Of course an underpressured lake will yield bigger slobs, but the pressured lake that doesn't may have more active night-feeder lunkers that have become wary of too many anglers bothering them.

The Hudson R in NYS now has a new 15" size limit which has many tourney anglers scratching their heads. The Hudson is huge and has quite a few areas that hold fish. If the DEC ever bothered to follow tourney guys on the river and be at the weigh-ins, they'd see that the 15" rule is unnecessary. Sometimes our over protective instincts lead to unfortunate results or no change in the fishery.

mattm reply :

I didn't get involved in this earlier b/c I had a couple of problems with it, but everyone has made really good points so i'll try. I'll start by saying I didn't really buy the story, and it still sounds very fishy to me. I have no way of proving this so I apologize to the original poster if i'm incorrect. But......

1)What landowner in his right mind would give permission to take that many fish, and if he did why would he allow some of those quality fish to be taken.

2)Why if you print any outdoor magazine would you not know the rules. Or for sure you would know that assuming can be very expensive and call the number provided in the book YOU said you looked through to make sure it was OK.

3)If you are lazy and didn't want to call, but you produced an outdoor magazine how do you not know someone who would of known

4)If your story is entirely true I can't believe the game warden showing up at your house. I can think of a million ways you could get out of it. 4 of 5 people went fishing for the party these were the guys that wanted to be in the picture. Fish were caught over several days and the ones laying on the ground are frozen. If all they saw was a picture with two names I don't see how they have enough evidence if they didn't catch you in possession of the fish at once.

However, having said this if the landowner granted this folks permission to take whatever they wanted I see absolutely no problem with it. I don't agree with it at all, and believe it was a foolish decision. However for all I know the pond is over populated, but by the looks of a couple of fish in the picture I doubt it, but the fish in my avatar came out of a pond me and my fishing buddy always catch at least 10 an hour out of. We've caught one 8, 2 sixes, and one 4 out of this pond and COUNTLESS fish under one and a half. I pretty sure we have never caught anything between 1.5-4.5. So I think it has to be over populated but there is monster fish in there.

Finally, regardless of the stories truthfullness I do think we missed an opportunity to convert someone here. When I first got into bass fishing I thought my friend was crazy for saying he would throw back a ten pounder. I had no idea of the possibilty of a replica. Thank God I didn't catch s lunker before I came around on this.

George Welcome reply :

For those that think it is okay if given approval, etc. Read the Illinois law - it's really quite simple and if you own a pond than you should be familiar with Riparian rights and law.

In Illinois, as with most states, water belongs to the state. It took very little research to find this. Hence, all state law would apply to the waters of Illinois whether on private or public land. The below is directly from Illinois Reparian Rights.

Doctrine of riparian rights:

"Riparian rights are a form of real property, a part of land law. The rights are appurtenant to the land; that is, they are attached to it in the sense that a person who purchases or inherits riparian land automatically acquires the water right."... "Under this doctrine, the law gives equal rights to the use of water to owners of land which borders upon or touches a stream or watercourse. A riparian right to the use of water exists whether the use is made or not; hence, a riparian owner can initiate a use at any time and insist that his rights be accommodated with other uses or that a share of the water be allotted to him. The nature of the right is usufructuary - the riparian does not own the water, but owns only the right to use it on his riparian land and to have it flow to his land so that it may be used. Developed in the humid climates of England and the eastern US, riparian law seems to be based upon an unspoken premise that if rights to use are restricted to those persons that have access to the water through the ownership of the banks, and if those persons will restrict their demands on the water to reasonable uses, there will be enough for all.

mattm reply :

I wasn't trying to say that a law wasn't broken. What you posted is to fancy for me to understand, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are right. I'm sure you understand it better than me. My point was more that I don't agree with the law. INMO, the land owner paid a lot for the land and probably paid to stock the fish so he can do as he chooses without being any less in my book, but better be prepared to suffer the consequences. I also don't believe that child molesters should be able to get out of jail, but the law says they can. Still not right in my book.

weknowhowtolive reply :

I have never in my life been hunting. But if I decide to go, on private property...no one needs to tell me "you cant take 5 deer" or "you cant take 20 ducks." Its common sense.

guest reply :

As far as I know. Owning a private lake does not exempt you from the state regulations.

I suppose this may vary from state to state, but if thier is bag limit imposed on a species it holds for privately owned water as well as public (Just like hunting on your own land)

If for some reason it is not illegal, I would not automatically call it "immoral" or even wrong to keep large stringers of bass.

Private ponds are often built becuase the owner wants LMB, so little attention can be paid to Lake management, as oppossed to "gettin me a pond fulla bass"

It can take a few seasons, but having a pond overloaded with stunted bass is not at all unusual. Culling fish is an essential part of a larger program to manage that system for a healthy balance.

IdahoLunkerHunter reply :

The riparian rights issue has been circulating around my area, northern idaho, for quite some time now. It mostly is being dealt with in the court system due to real estate development issues, "Who owns to the high water mark or under", etc. Riparian rights and state legality water rights are very complex issues because a lot of it in Idaho also has to deal with navigatable water.

I gues what I'm trying to say is always check with your state fish and game department if you are unaware of the law or need a question answered. That's why it's there.

alhuff reply :

I guess I'll add my 2cents to this....

The guys that took the 25 bass from the private pond has killed their chance to catch any large bass from that pond for a very long time.

My Opinon....opinons are like, well you know the rest....

I think that if a smaller, private pond needs to have bass, bluegill, whatever taken out for there to be a productive fishery then thats what needs to happen, the owner decides that not the state.

For a public fishery, thats the job of the DNR, thats why they make laws like creel limits and slot limits.

Now, if a person is within the law for taking any species of fish then there is nothing I can say about that. All I can do is contact the DNR folks and tell them that the lake looks as though it is being over fished and hope they do something about it or be willing to teach that person.

The issue of over fishing any lake, private or public, is something that i have been trying to teach my dad and anyone else that will listen for a long time.

As stated before, alot, let me say that again, alot of people fish for food, not fun, my dad being one of those people. They are there to catch food not there for the sport.

It is very hard to tell the person that needs to eat that he shouldn't keep all the fish that he catches. He doesn't care nor understands how him catching what he needs to eat affects the lake he is fishing in. But when everyone that fishes that lake does the same as that guy then there is an issue.

I love to eat a good fresh bluegill, my love for catching bass will and does make me throw them back.

Now if that pond needs bass taken out, ONLY IN A PRIVATE POND, then I'll do that.

Thats my 2cents, do with it as you will,

Alfred Huff

Low_Budget_Hooker reply :

Quote

Quote
Taking 30 fish in one shot, regardless of the species, from any lake, is unethical. It doesn't take a law book to figure that one out.

LBH... Do you believe this true for pan fish etc.

I believe the professionals, I'm certainly not one of them. If they say no need for a limit on Crappie, there's probably a good reason.

I will back the creels of any state agency

Cephkiller reply :

Quote
I will back the creels of any state agency

The following is my opinion only.

Sometimes the state agencies do not have the same goals as I/we do. Here in IN, I suspect that the LMB limits are set to ensure a large population of 1-2 lb bass for the casual angler. Many people eat bass around here when they reach the legal limit of 14". I am lucky enough to live within 10 miles of hundreds of strip pits from a few acres to a few hundred acres in size regulated by the state. In my experience, most of these pits are full of 10-13" bass because of the "one size fits all" size limit of 14".

alhuff reply :

I'll have to agree with ya Cephkiller.......

If there were not the size limits, speaking from growing up with a dad that fishes for food, there wouldn't be anything but small bass, if any at all, in the lakes most people fish.

Maybe we should start talking with the DNR folks and letting them know how we feel about the limits and see if anything can be done to change them.

Alfred

Cephkiller reply :

We do have some lakes around the state that have a slot limit. I wish they would impose that on some of the pits around here. I could really go for something like a 12-20" slot on a few selected "trophy lakes."

alhuff reply :

slots limits are a great idea on any body of water when it comes to bass.......

Alfred

guest reply :

Quote
It is very hard to tell the person that needs to eat that he shouldn't keep all the fish that he catches. He doesn't care nor understands how him catching what he needs to eat affects the lake he is fishing in.

first off, let me compliment all for an interesting thread.

Quote
It is very hard to tell the person that needs to eat that he shouldn't keep all the fish that he catches. He doesn't care nor understands how him catching what he needs to eat affects the lake he is fishing in.

This is an excellent point. I suppose it can be argued that no one "needs" to fish to eat, what with food stamps etc, but that is naive. If there is a free food source swimming around a nearby pond, poor folk are going to catch as many as they can and eat everything they catch. it may not be "necessary" in the pioneer sense of catch game or starve, but I would rather catch a fish or kill a rabbit anyday, then cash in food stamps. I suspect many folks, who are suffering hard times would feel the same way.

I can't condone it. but I can understand it.

I knew a guy who thought living off the land was an American birthright. He was an incredible woodsman. He could identify a huge assortment of edible wild plants, he would dig for tubers, truffles, wild onions, morels, and gather berries, nuts, acorns........ the list goes on and on.

He was a fascinating guy. He was not poor. He was a Viet Nam vet and collected a veterans disability pension.

His philosophy extended to fish and game as well. He was an outstanding trapper with both primitive hand made snares etc. and regular store bought traps.

Seasons and bag limits meant nothing to him.

He invited me to go "bird hunting" with him. There were alot of grouse and woodcock in the woods surrounding his cabin, I had a license and it was bird season. But when we got into the woods he shot everything that moved. From chicadees to crows, chipmunks, woodpeckers, you name it, he shot it.

It all went into the pot.

I was appalled at first, but this guy was so unique and interesting I wasn't about to tell him how to live.

He simply had an unshakealbe belief that this was his God given right.

The local game wardens were on to him, but tried to cut him some slack. I always thought that this was sort of a difficult situation. Here was this guy who did three tours in Viet Nam, suffering a number of wounds, and illness.

He was not the same guy when he came home. He left Long Island and moved to a cabin on property his family owned in Schoharie County NY. I heard that he got in trouble for killing a deer out of season. but I had lost touch with him at that point.

I don't think anything short of jail would ever keep him from him pursuing his lifestyle.

So you see, there is often more to these stories than meets the eye.

Jerkbate reply :

While I do not support breaking any laws, I disagree with some of your opinions that removing 30 fish is unhealthy for any body of water. I live at Grenada Lake. Every year there are hundred of limits of 30 crappie kept out of this lake each year. Also, I removed over 200 bass, at the request of the land owner, from his pond of about 6 acres. I did this in 4 days. You can still catch 30-50 bass every trip, and they are all 10 - 12 inches. I realize that sustained removal rates this high will eventually have negative affects on a fishery, but to say removing 30 fish at any time is not healthy is untrue.

I strictly bass fish and release 99.9% of all of the fish I caught. The only time I keep one is in situations like the one mentioned above or if it dies. I love to bass fish and want healthy fisheries as much as the next guy, but when did the LMB become so highly regarded? It isn't that different than any other fish. We have no problem with people keeping crappie, catfish, or bream. Why not bass? In some situations C-n-R is not healthy for the fishery. Also, it is proven that most people who fish do not fish for bass. Especially in my area, crappie are the fish that are mostly pursued. So, there is no threat of overfishing for largemouths.

I say all that to say this, people shouldn't get so bent out of shape because someone keeps a few bass to eat. If you are strictly C-n-R that's fine; just realize that some people are not. As long as they are within their legal limits, nothing should ever be said. If fact I feel they should be congratulated on their catch.

weknowhowtolive reply :

I think the "fishing for food" thing is a little bogus because we are talking about bass fishing.

A. Bass dont taste very good. Im not really a fish eater, but I've tried most, and bass were not really near the top.

B. Its bass fishing. Sure, you can do it with junkie poles and worms, but...how many people who go out and catch 30 bass in a day are doing it on cheap rigs and live bait? Maybe a few but, I doubt it on a private pond.

There are easier and better tasting fish that are much more highly populated in easier to access lakes and ponds and rivers.

Catt reply :

I have on occasion kept bass; I don't care what others say they are excellent fried. I fish Toledo Bend and if I keep my legal limit of 8 bass it aint gonna effect nothing. Some guys are getting awfully close to worshipping bass which in my option is worse than keeping them.

It's all has to do with the body of water period

flyphisher # reply :

"fishing for food is bogus?????" Why else would anyone keep the fish and clean them if they didnt like eating them????? :

fish worshiper= form of tree hugger whether you like it or not. Reading some of the posts, i had to go back and check the web page to make sure I wasnt on a animal rights website.....

Otherwise, these threads are hilarious.

weknowhowtolive reply :

Quote
"fishing for food is bogus?????" Why else would anyone keep the fish and clean them if they didnt like eating them????? :
fish worshiper= form of tree hugger whether you like it or not. Reading some of the posts, i had to go back and check the web page to make sure I wasnt on a animal rights website.....

Otherwise, these threads are hilarious.

no no no...fishing for food in this argument. Not in general.

NBR reply :

I have had 3 friends that have had private ponds on their farms. Both worked with state DNR's to manage the ponds. The first and last were in Illinois and the second was a Michigan farm. As I recall all the ponds had bluegills and largemouths

The first had a larger pond that I would guestimate in the range of 20 acres. We fished from the owners boat on weekdays since it did not interfere with any of their family outings. We did call their home phone instead of the lake cabin to be sure we weren't infringing on others. There was little or no pressure on the fish in the pond and we were asked to keep all we caught. I can't recall ever catching a LM over about 2# but we did git some nice hand sized gills.

The second had 2 or 3 small ponds and the family were more active fisherfolks. We bank fished only. They had a figure from the DNR as to how many pounds of fish should be taken each year from each. These folks would suggest you take some quanity of fish from each pond, estimate the pound weight to be consistant with the needed harvest and give them a rough count by pond.

The third was owned by a nonfisher familyand was not managed that I can recall. We also bank fished there.

I can't recall ever catching a fish out of pond 3. We caught several from farm 2 but always gave the owners the fish they wanted harvested. Farm 1 provided several nice fish fries although they didn't care what you did with the fish just get them out of the pond. I am sure farms 1 and 2 monitored the harvest and altered it to suit their management program.

Farm pond management can be difficult and without some expert advice you could destroy a good fishery by creating too many or too few for the existing forage. I can't comment on the law re limits but taking 30 or even more fish could be necessary to maintain a healthy population.

flyphisher # reply :

Its cruel to keep a bass.....because bass are people too... :

Jerkbate reply :

Quote
I have on occasion kept bass; I don't care what others say they are excellent fried. I fish Toledo Bend and if I keep my legal limit of 8 bass it aint gonna effect nothing. Some guys are getting awfully close to worshipping bass which in my option is worse than keeping them.
It's all has to do with the body of water period

I totally agree.

Maxximus Redneckus reply :

Quote
The limit here for yellow perch is 30.Was 40 last year...virus hit us pretty hard.
I see nothing wrong with catching 30 fish if it's within limit and law.Some people stock their fridges and don't alway fish.

Ever watch commerical fishery?They take them by the thousands...now that's unethical....

YUP u hit the nail on the head i live on the Chesapeake bay .We have diff countries coming into the bay with trollers BECAUSE they have DEPLETED there OWN fishery.A 200,000 fine aint nothing to a business that makes 200,000 in one day every day of the yr.

Glenn reply :

Curious.... where's the legal info debate?

We literally have DOZENS of threads here about catch-n-release, lake management, ethics regarding limits, blah blah blah. If you really want to know about it, search the forums and the site for "catch and release".

Otherwise, let's keep this thread on topic please. The guy is asking for legal advice, not lake management advice.

Thanks!

Glenn

Virgil reply :

Hi everyone. New to the board and just had to ask a few questions about this pond. Is the pond naturally occuring or manmade? Were the fish in the pond planted by the dnr or by the land owner? I know that this info makes a huge difference in most states. In Washington State it is not unusual to see privately owned ponds with no limits or fishing licenses. These ponds are manmade and the fish in them were purchased and planted by the land owners. Some are free and some charge to fish. The pond owners set the limits not the state. Just food for thought.

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need legal info debate 2024

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