changing gear ratios with amount of spooled line? 2024

Dennis1972 reply :

i have a 7 speed baitcaster, 31" ipt. i wanted to slow my retrieve a bit for crainkbaits so i took 20 or so yards of line of it, i measured the ipt and it changed to about 25" ipt from 31" ipt, about where i wanted it. do i still get the advantage of less fatigue when i just remove line to slow the retrieve? i cant think of any reason why not. seems the same as changing to slower brass gears in my mind. but if that was the case why wouldnt everyone buy the fastest reel available and just remove line till they get the ipt they desire?

Maxximus Redneckus reply :

The smaller spool has a effect on drag smoothness is most likly why unless your using braid in slop i wont matter much though

LionHeart reply :

Gear ratio and IPT are two separate properties. Your reel may take up line more slowly now but it is still the same gear ratio, thus the mechanical advantage has not measurably changed.

For every turn of the reel handle, your spool will still rotate 7 times. Removing or adding line from/to your spool changes IPT, but not torque.

The higher the gear ratio, the harder it is to turn the reel handle.

MN Fisher reply :

As @LionHeartsaid, you're not changing the ratio.

To take up line slower, either get a lower-ratio reel or turn the handle slower.

All taking line out will do in the long run is make you re-spool more often as you lose what you have to break-offs and lure changes.

OkobojiEagle reply :

Should you hook a truly large fish, musky, pike, carp, catfish..., you will appreciate having a full spool of line.

BassWhole! reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 7:16 PM, LionHeart said:

Gear ratio and IPT are two separate properties. Your reel may take up line more slowly now but it is still the same gear ratio, thus the mechanical advantage has not measurably changed.

For every turn of the reel handle, your spool will still rotate 7 times. Removing or adding line from/to your spool changes IPT, but not torque.

The higher the gear ratio, the harder it is to turn the reel handle.

Yeah, except, no. The diameter of the spool as filled is an integral part of the whole equation, so as the spool diameter changes, for a given amount of line retrieved, there will be corresponding changes in the magnitude of handle rotation AND force required to make said rotation at the handle grip. We'll leave handle length as a constant so not to confuse folks, yet...

Tennessee Boy reply :

Removing 20 yards of line is the same as making a 20 yard cast. Your IPT is constantly changing as you cast and reel line back in. How much it changes also depends on the diameter of the line. As you cut or break off line it continues to change. Lots of variables in the equation. Making changes in the amount of line spooled to fine tune IPT seems like more effort than it's worth to me but if you like the fishing with 20 yards less on your spool then do it.

LionHeart reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 8:35 PM, BassWhole! said:

Yeah, except, no. The diameter of the spool as filled is an integral part of the whole equation, so as the spool diameter changes, for a given amount of line retrieved, there will be corresponding changes in the magnitude of handle rotation AND force required to make said rotation at the handle grip. We'll leave handle length as a constant so not to confuse folks, yet...

Lol, I figured somebody would try to overcomplicate the answer( there is always one) which is why I said "measurably changed."

From and academic stand point, sure, the required force to turn the reel handle would be marginally changed. In practice.... nope. You can't change gear ratio by stripping line off your reel. Thanks though

BassWhole! reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 8:59 PM, LionHeart said:

Lol, I figured somebody would try to overcomplicate the answer( there is always one) which is why I said "measurably changed."

From and academic stand point, sure, the required force to turn the reel handle would be marginally changed. In practice.... nope. Thanks though

There is nothing complicated about it, changing the gear ratio, handle length or effective spool diameter changes the mechanical advantage equally. If you 1/2 any of them (leaving the others the same for that apple/orange consistency thing) then the change will be equivalent, whether marginal or not. I frequently fish BCs 3/4 filled on purpose for some presentations.

Fishingmickey reply :

Dennis you can compare retrieve (gear ratio) to a transmission on a vehicle. In low gear you have much more torque (pulling power) and less speed. In high gear your have much more speed and less torque or pulling power. Removing line from your reel does change the IPT as you noted but doesn't change the torque. With crank baits if your throwing a large (big billed) deep diving crank bait you would want the lower ratio to keep from wearing your arm out if your throwing say a 8XD or 10XD. Throwing mid sized to small crank baits probably wouldn't make much of a noticeable difference.

Tennessee Boy reply :

It looks like we've got a good ole fashion physics argument going here.

I agree that changing the amount of line on a reel does not change the gear ratio. That's a number that applies only to gears in the reel. Changing the amount of line on the reel does change the level of effort required to turn the handle.

Using the vehicle example. Low gear does give you more power and less speed but increasing the size of the wheels would give you more speed and less power. It's all part of the equation. Changing the amount of line on a spool is the same as changing the size of the wheels and it does matter.

Team9nine reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 1:04 PM, Dennis1972 said:

i have a 7 speed baitcaster, 31" ipt. i wanted to slow my retrieve a bit for crainkbaits so i took 20 or so yards of line of it, i measured the ipt and it changed to about 25" ipt from 31" ipt, about where i wanted it. do i still get the advantage of less fatigue when i just remove line to slow the retrieve? i cant think of any reason why not. seems the same as changing to slower brass gears in my mind. but if that was the case why wouldnt everyone buy the fastest reel available and just remove line till they get the ipt they desire?

Guess I’m in the camp with BassWhole and Tennessee Boy. I’ve tested and measured all this out (and posted results here) before. Yes, Dennis, you will get the advantage of less fatigue. The reasons against more doing this are several though, and include less overall line capacity, less effective drag, shorter and more difficult casting, and less thumb spool control in many instances, among others. Personally, I keep a couple dedicated low gear reels for just such applications (personal preference). Not much I dislike more than a “less than fully spooled reel” when fishing ????

WRB reply :

The IPT is what matters with crank baits not the gear ratio independently.

Everyone has 1 thing in common fishing crank baits, we cast them and depending on the length of the cast the IPT changes, not the gear ratio. If we can agree on this simple fact it's a step in understanding fishing reels.

Not all reels with the same gear ratio have equal IPT when full of line. IPT is inches per turn and that depends on 2 factors; outside diameter and width of the spool. Outside diameter determine maximum diameter at full spool, diameter X Pi = circumference. The spool width determines how many turns of line the spool holds for each layer of line.

Todays popular bait casting reels are size 100 with small diameter narrow width spools, reducing line capacity. Smaller line diameter increases capacity vs larger line diameter.

The bottom line is use larger size reels with larger diameter and wider spools if you Desire the IPT to be more consistant over the length casting yardage. Lower gear ratio results in higher torque turning the spool but it's IPT or distance the crank bait is moving forward and speed it's traveling forward that creates the lures resistance in water..

Changing a size 100 reel with small diameter narrow spool gear ration reduces the IPT further at casting distance, you must crank faster to move the lure forward at the equal speed of a size 300 reel with equal gear ratio.

Tom

LionHeart reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 9:06 PM, BassWhole! said:

There is nothing complicated about it, changing the gear ratio, handle length or effective spool diameter changes the mechanical advantage equally. If you 1/2 any of them (leaving the others the same for that apple/orange consistency thing) then the change will be equivalent, whether marginal or not. I frequently fish BCs 3/4 filled on purpose for some presentations.

Sorry but to suggest that using a 6:1 ratio reel with a spool half filled with line gives the same mechanical advantage as a 3:1 ratio reel is not based in reality.

Maybe that ain't what you were saying but it kinda seems that way.

Get This:

The OP asked if using 20 or so yards of less line would effectively make his reel behave as if it were a lower gear ratio. The answer doesn't need to get obscured by minutia..... no.

If you start with let's say a 7.3:1 reel and only half fill the spool, maybe the small leverage gain would reflect something to the tune of let's generically say a 7.2:1 ratio, but would you practically notice the change? Of course not.

As with any online forum, there will always be a practical and useful answer, and then someone that comes along and gives the 'well actually......' answer. This thread is a classic case of that. If you can decern the minute change in leverage from using 20 yards less line, then you are uncommonly in tune with your gear. In which case I suppose, hats off to you.

That seemed like a rant. I don't mean it that way.

Fishes in trees reply :

What I would do in this situation is to buy a reel with a gear ratio that you like better. 7-1 gear ratio is more of a pitching reel than cranking. Me - I like a Calcutta 200 TEGT for throwing cranks and mine has a 5-1 gear ratio.

No matter what gear ratio reel you've got, I think it is a bad idea to purposefully take 20 years of line off of it prior to fishing and I wouldn't do it on purpose. If I somehow lost 20 years of line while fishing, I'd probably keep fishing it - Who am I kidding - no I wouldn't - I'd grab one of the 3 or 4 back up reels I generally carry in the boat.

Changing the subject - if the original poster has a 7 SPEED reel, with 7 different gear ratio choices, I want one. I have an old Shimano Beastmaster 2 speed reel and it worked kinda ok. A 7 speed reel would be fun to play with.

Team9nine reply :

Since we're going into the weeds:

J Francho reply :

I think my eyeball is bleeding ....

Tennessee Boy reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 11:07 PM, LionHeart said:

If you start with let's say a 7.3:1 reel and only half fill the spool, maybe the small leverage gain would reflect something to the tune of let's generically say a 7.2:1 ratio, but would you practically notice the change? Of course not.

We don't have to guess the ratio, we can do the math. The OP reduced his IPT 6 inches from 31 to 25 by reducing the line on the spool. If his gear ratio is 7.3:1 then my math says the diameter of his spool and line was originally 1.35 in. To get the equivalent drop in IPT of 6 inches with the same diameter spool but lower gear ratio, my math says the new ratio would be 5.9:1.

Someone check my math.

LionHeart reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 1:02 AM, Tennessee Boy said:

We don't have to guess the ratio, we can do the math. The OP reduced his IPT 6 inches from 31 to 25 by reducing the line on the spool. If his gear ratio is 7.3:1 then my math says the diameter of his spool and line was originally 1.35 in. To get the equivalent drop in IPT of 6 inches with the same diameter spool but lower gear ratio, my math says the new ratio would be 5.9:1.

Someone check my math.

I appreciate your methodology but it don't work that way. If you feel like it bleeding 20 yards of line gives you more leverage or somehow changes the gear ratio of your reel, run with it.

We aren't talking about the best way to launch a space shuttle, we are talking about bass fishing.

Being factually accurate can be allowed to take the back seat to having fun and enjoying the experience. Perception is allowed to count for something.

Team9nine reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 1:17 AM, LionHeart said:

Being factually accurate can be allowed to take the back seat to having fun and enjoying the experience. Perception is allowed to matter.

In that case, TB and BW are still right, and you’re still wrong ????

WRB reply :

A empty spool without line spins at whatever gear ratio the reel has, turn the handle 1 full turn the spools spins 5.1:1 ot 7.3:1 if those are the gear ratios.

What everyone seems to debate is the IPT at various levels of line capacity and it's different with each reel model depending on spool diameter and width.

To repeat, What matters with a crank bait is the force it takes to retreive them and that force is directly related to the how fast the deep diving crank bait is being pulled forward, IPT.

If the IPT is increasing as the spool fills with line the force to move the lure forward increases unless you slow down your cranking speed.

This shouldn't be difficult to understand and everyone experiences increasing force when retrieving a deep diving crank bait. Unless you crank faster at the beginning of the retreive after casting to maintain lure speed and slow down as the lure moves forward to maintain the lure speed.

Most bass anglers crank faster to get the lure down by increasing lure speed using deep diving crank baits with diving bills then slow down to a comfortable cranking speed.

if you are fighting the crank bait to move it forward at the speed you like your reels IPT is too fast and isn't working right for you.

Going to a lower gear ratio reduces IPT regardless of all the other factors.

If the OP changes from 7.3:1 to 6.3:1 and changes nothing else the IPT will be reduced, the lures forward speed will be slower at the same cranking speed resulting in less force to retrieve the deep diving crank bait.

Tom

Dennis1972 reply :

oh wow, i think im more confused about it now than when i posted the question..haha. i am not one bit concerned about a fish spooling me because i have 20 yards less line, that will never happen...i still have 100 yards of line on the reel, never in over 40 years of fishing have i even used 1/2 of that amount of line. in fact i wish reels came with only about 75 or so yard capacity to make the filled spool weight less...but thats a whole different subject. anyway i was thinking about ordering a new reel today and torn between 7 speed and 6 speed. i have bad wrists with arthritis in them....so im just looking for a little advantage. the reel will be used for square bill cranks, spinnerbaits and buzzbaits. i do not do any deep cranking, as i pretty much only fish the on the river by my house {5ft deep} or small ponds around here.

jbrew73 reply :

I love when people keep arguing over simple things that clearly have a right and a wrong answer yet the losing side can’t let it go. :stupid:

LionHeart reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 1:22 AM, Team9nine said:

In that case, TB and BW are still right, and you’re still wrong ????

Riiight, wink wink. Enjoy your perception

The Bassman reply :

Saw this thread at 5:00 this morning with no replies yet. Ran away as fast as I could. Something about this topic that always gets everyone riled up.

Hammer 4 reply :

My Brain hurts..... :wacko:

J Francho reply :

Omg, there’s more.

Actually, these threads are awesome. I’ve been known to be a measurebator on occasion

dodgeguy reply :

On 9/26/2019 at 9:30 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

It looks like we've got a good ole fashion physics argument going here.

I agree that changing the amount of line on a reel does not change the gear ratio. That's a number that applies only to gears in the reel. Changing the amount of line on the reel does change the level of effort required to turn the handle.

Using the vehicle example. Low gear does give you more power and less speed but increasing the size of the wheels would give you more speed and less power. It's all part of the equation. Changing the amount of line on a spool is the same as changing the size of the wheels and it does matter.

Absolutely correct.

Dennis1972 reply :

so is the final answer that it takes the same amount of effort to turn the 7 speed reel handle with less line as it takes to turn a 6 speed reel handle with a full spool? im ready to order and dont want to regret the purchase.

Glenn reply :

Well, now for something different...

Casting a baitcaster that's less than 70% full can make it more difficult to cast. You could get more backlashes, less accuracy, and less casting distance (because you'll need to tighten down on the cast controls to prevent backlashing).

Just another fly in the ointment.

Dennis1972 reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 10:00 AM, Glenn said:

Well, now for something different...

Casting a baitcaster that's less than 70% full can make it more difficult to cast. You could get more backlashes, less accuracy, and less casting distance (because you'll need to tighten down on the cast controls to prevent backlashing).

Just another fly in the ointment.

but on the other hand i should get more casting distance due to the lighter spool that takes less inertia it get it spinning.....lots of flies in my ointment today

CountryboyinDC reply :

Wow, I thought the bit about the gear ratio/tire size would be the kind of thing to bring folks to the same page. Guess not. @Dennis1972, why don't you just buy a reel for cranking? 25 IPT may be okay, or you might like a BB1 (probably closer to 20 IPT) or something else really slow. I don't want to go even farther down in the weeds, but if you take off line, there'll be even more difference in the retrieve speed (assuming you turn the handle the same revolutions per unit time) between the end of your cast and when you've finished your retrieve than if you casted from a full spool.

Dennis1972 reply :

well like i said earlier, i dont ever deep crank, the new reel will be used to fish squarebills, spinnerbaits, and buzzbaits only. all of my other set ups are dedicated rods/reels and are perfect for their jobs. but yesterday i was throwing squarebills and buzzbaits and i mentioned to my friend i was getting worn out after about 3 hours.... i did get 2 nice smallies for my efforts. i was reeling pretty fast with my 7 speed that is short lined to be slower, but i still got wore out. i do have a pretty much brand new 5 speed reel {deep cranking} sitting in my fishing gear room, but i think thats too slow for buzzbaits and square bills.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Dennis1972

BassWhole! reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 9:29 AM, Dennis1972 said:

so is the final answer that it takes the same amount of effort to turn the 7 speed reel handle with less line as it takes to turn a 6 speed reel handle with a full spool? im ready to order and dont want to regret the purchase.

No, but assuming you are talking about the same reel with different gear ratios (or models with identical relevant dimensions) then yes, at some point of spool fill. The IPT will vary as the diameter of the line of the spool, so using the formula for the circumference of a circle, the IPT will be the diameter x pi. So yes, a half filled spool WILL have 1/2 the IPT.

For shallow to mid cranking with smaller baits, square bills and the like, it won't matter much. If you are going to be deep cranking with larger baits that pull hard, get the slowest reel you can find.

fissure_man reply :

Stripping 20 yds of line for a 20% reduction in IPT (31 to 25) seems unlikely unless the OP is fishing with rope.

Assuming ‘7 speed’ means 7.0:1 ratio, the reported IPT loss would correspond to a proportional decrease in ‘effective’ spool diameter from around 1.41” to around 1.14”. By volume, this outer 0.27” (~20%) of the filled spool should contain a minimum of 35% of the spool’s total line capacity, even if we assume the volume of the spool arbor is negligible. So if the stripped line (20 yds) made up 35% or more of the total line capacity, then the total capacity would have been less than 60 yds…?

This doesn’t jive with the later comment that the reel still has 100 yds left. I’m guessing the OP’s spool wasn’t totally filled to begin with, and/or the 31 IPT was never correct, and/or the actual line stripped was much more than 20 yards. Dennis, is this close?

In any case, it is true and easily demonstrated that either stripping line or swapping gears to a lower ratio will have the same effect on ‘felt resistance’ and handle RPM for a given retrieval force and rate, if the resulting IPT is the same. If you close your eyes, there is no difference.

However, there are other downsides to fishing with an under-filled spool as listed by others. Lost casting distance is the biggest one (IMO), especially if the job of the ‘geared down’ reel is to sling crankbaits and spinnerbaits. Contrary to posts above, I find it’s easier to control an underfilled spool in terms of backlashes, for essentially the same reasons that cause the loss of casting distance:

a) a smaller spool needs to spin faster to release line resulting in greater braking resistance, and

b) a more rapid drop in effective spool diameter as the line peels off further slows the rate of line release toward the middle and end of the cast, and

c) less weight on the spool probably helps with inertia issues/overrun at the end of the cast

Because of the above, some recommend underfilled spools for skipping. But in general (IMO), the cons outweigh the pros. A properly filled reel with the desired gear ratio and properly set brakes is ideal.

On 9/27/2019 at 7:38 PM, BassWhole! said:

So yes, a half filled spool WILL have 1/2 the IPT.

To clarify, this would need to be "half filled" based on spool diameter, not line capacity. Stripping 100 yds off a spool holding 200 yds will reduce its IPT, but not by half.

CountryboyinDC reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 10:48 AM, Dennis1972 said:

but yesterday i was throwing squarebills and buzzbaits and i mentioned to my friend i was getting worn out after about 3 hours

Another thing about reels made for resistance baits - they tend to have longer handles.

Fishingmickey reply :

I remember back in the day a 5:1 ratio was about as fast as they made (35-40 years ago). If your planning on throwing larger double willow leaf spinnerbaits a 6:1 will perform very well.

Dennis1972 reply :

On 9/27/2019 at 8:03 PM, fissure_man said:

On 9/27/2019 at 8:03 PM, fissure_man said:

Stripping 20 yds of line for a 20% reduction in IPT (31 to 25) seems unlikely unless the OP is fishing with rope.

Assuming ‘7 speed’ means 7.0:1 ratio, the reported IPT loss would correspond to a proportional decrease in ‘effective’ spool diameter from around 1.41” to around 1.14”. By volume, this outer 0.27” (~20%) of the filled spool should contain a minimum of 35% of the spool’s total line capacity, even if we assume the volume of the spool arbor is negligible. So if the stripped line (20 yds) made up 35% or more of the total line capacity, then the total capacity would have been less than 60 yds…?

This doesn’t jive with the later comment that the reel still has 100 yds left. I’m guessing the OP’s spool wasn’t totally filled to begin with, and/or the 31 IPT was never correct, and/or the actual line stripped was much more than 20 yards. Dennis, is this close?

In any case, it is true and easily demonstrated that either stripping line or swapping gears to a lower ratio will have the same effect on ‘felt resistance’ and handle RPM for a given retrieval force and rate, if the resulting IPT is the same. If you close your eyes, there is no difference.

However, there are other downsides to fishing with an under-filled spool as listed by others. Lost casting distance is the biggest one (IMO), especially if the job of the ‘geared down’ reel is to sling crankbaits and spinnerbaits. Contrary to posts above, I find it’s easier to control an underfilled spool in terms of backlashes, for essentially the same reasons that cause the loss of casting distance:

a) a smaller spool needs to spin faster to release line resulting in greater braking resistance, and

b) a more rapid drop in effective spool diameter as the line peels off further slows the rate of line release toward the middle and end of the cast, and

c) less weight on the spool probably helps with inertia issues/overrun at the end of the cast

Because of the above, some recommend underfilled spools for skipping. But in general (IMO), the cons outweigh the pros. A properly filled reel with the desired gear ratio and properly set brakes is ideal.

To clarify, this would need to be "half filled" based on spool diameter, not line capacity. Stripping 100 yds off a spool holding 200 yds will reduce its IPT, but not by half.

i am not sure that it is exactly 20 yards off the spool. it looks like there is still at least 3/4 or 75% of the line still on the spool. i did not measure with a full spool, i am just going by the literature that says its 31" ipt when full {120 yards}. i am assuming the factory got it right.

BassWhole! reply :

On 9/28/2019 at 2:39 AM, Dennis1972 said:

i am not sure that it is exactly 20 yards off the spool. it looks like there is still at least 3/4 or 75% of the line still on the spool. i did not measure with a full spool, i am just going by the literature that says its 31" ipt when full {120 yards}. i am assuming the factory got it right.

We're still doing this? Ok then. The amount of line in yards has no bearing (pun intended). The difference in circumference of the spool as filled does. So it could be a lot of 8 lb test, or a little 25 lb test.

Dennis1972 reply :

well, its 12lb trilene big game line. big game is a little thicker than other lines. not that it matters, as the spool is still 3/4 full. and it casts like a dream 3/4 full. i could not belive the distance i was getting with a 1/4oz square bill till i lost it, then i switched to an even lighter one and was still bombing way out there. i think i decided on another 7 gear ratio, i will just take some line off again as the temps drop to slow it down.

WRB reply :

For what it's worth I use both 10 lb and 12 lb green Big Game mono for crankbaits since the mid 80's. BG was under $8 for 1/4 lb spools for all that time period so changing it as needed wasn't an issue. Caught a lot of big bass cranking with BG mono.

The past year I have been using Sunline Diefer Armillo 11 lb, small dia with exceptional casting distance, but a lot more expensive but don't fish as often.

All the detailed thread was intended for high water resistant deep divers, medium and lipless cranks reel gear ratios or IPT are not a factor.

Tom

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