No braid, no way. 2025
jimmyjoe reply :
I fish a sand pit, and I fish it from shore. Mornings and evenings, fish hit waaaaaay out in the middle. I have a 7' Avid-X spinning rod, ML/F (1/8-3/8) and throw 1/3 ounce spoons and trap-types on 6 lb. Trilene XL and Stren. Yesterday, I set the hook on 8 bass. Five jumped and threw the hook almost immediately. Of the other 3, I got 2. The third one got off about ten feet out. I don't know what to do, but here's some advice people gave me: 1) Rod is too stiff. Get a slower, more flexible rod. ( I don't have one like that anymore. I'd have to buy one.) 2) Use braid. (No, I won't. Forcing a long cast like this just gets me wind knots, sooner or later. I'm old, I'm cranky, and wind knots put me in the foulest mood you ever saw.) 3) Set the hook, but then slack waaaay off, as if you were using an ultralight. The fish won't jump. (I don't know about this one. I think a fish with a hook in its mouth is gonna jump to shake it off, no matter what. But I could be wrong.) 4) Get a more flexible and much longer rod. (The guy who told me this is a fly fisherman, so it kinda figures. But I fail to see what length does for me if I already have a soft rod. Again .... maybe I'm wrong.)
What do you guys think I should do? jj
looking45 reply :
The first thing I would do is to make sure your hooks are sharp.
Big Rick reply :
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/22/2019 at 12:09 AM, Big Rick said:
Hmmmmmmmm........ Are the benefits they claim actually real for spinning tackle?
flyfisher reply :
I have less wind knots with braid than i have when i used to use floro or mono. Use 6 or 8lb diameter braid and you will be fine. I also second the sharp hooks and with that long of a cast and mono it is going ot be hard to get a solid hookset without the sharp hooks.
I would also wonder if with a ML rod if you are even getting a solid hookset, i wouldn't use anything but a M at the least.
looking45 reply :
It looks like this line is designed more for saltwater fishing. They say you don't get the wind knots because the line is firm. IMO, firm means stiff. Not what I want in a braided line. I would have to see/feel the line before I bought any
johnD. reply :
Wind knots are caused by human error or a reel that has bad line lay.
I fish light spinning reels inshore saltwater all of the time , making very long cast , and never get wind knots. That's using 10 lb invisibraid. Wind tamer has a coating , it wears off pretty quickly.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/22/2019 at 1:39 AM, flyfisher said:Use 6 or 8lb diameter braid and you will be fine.
I take it that you mean get a braid that is the same diameter as 6 or 8 lb. MONO, correct? Wouldn't that cut into my distance?
On 7/22/2019 at 1:39 AM, flyfisher said:I would also wonder if with a ML rod if you are even getting a solid hookset, i wouldn't use anything but a M at the least.
I've got an old M/F 7' down in that basement. I could try that. ????
On 7/22/2019 at 3:26 AM, johnD. said:Wind knots are caused by human error or a reel that has bad line lay.
Wind knots are caused by 2 things: line body characteristics and friction. Both can change rather quickly.
On 7/22/2019 at 3:26 AM, johnD. said:10 lb invisibraid.
That looks almost as small a diameter as Gliss. Thnx ... I MIGHT try it. Maybe. I don't use Gliss because I can't get consistency from the knots.
You dadgum people are pushing me back towards superlines again, which is where I didn't want to go. I used Nanobraid 8 lb., PowerPro 10 lb., 832 8 and 10 lb., and Nanofil 12 lb. I used a Nasci 1000, Fuego 2000SH (same spool lip size as BG2000) and 2500 stradics, both plastic and metal.
I want to emphasize that I didn't have trouble with superlines UNTIL I really hotdogged it to get that super distance. I had no problems with normal casts. And I also have no wind knot problems with mono when I push the distance, which is why I said I was using Trilene and Stren.
Remember ..... the heading on this topic is "No braid, no way". There's a reason for that. Don't go giving me hope and then let me down, now.
There was a redhead that did that down in San Antonio back in the 70's. ☹️ jj
dodgeguy reply :
Braid will not help you with treble hook lures. I use braid almost exclusively for the past 30 years. A longer rod will help. Don't horse the fish. Loosen your drag. Shove the rod tip down so your not making the fish jump. When it jumps bow to it keep the rod tip down and the line tight. The second you Gove it slack that fish will headshake and probably throw your lure.get a net.
WRB reply :
You can't get a hook set making long cast using the rod only it can't move enough line to put pressure on the hooks.
Set your drag at 2 to 2 1/2 lbs using a scale, your ML can't handle any more force then that. When you get a strike reel fast until the rod is loaded up then make a hard rod sweep and keep reeling, your drag slips a little don't worry about it.
Definately sharpen the hook points until they stick into your thumb nail.
You would be better off using a meduim power rod.
Tom
PS, Fins Windtamer was designed for baitcasting reels, the Original PRT 10 lb (.008D) works good on spinning eels. I haven't had any coating wear off with decades of use.
long island basser reply :
I would as mentioned from a couple above, first check that my hooks are sticky sharp, second - up my rod power to m.
Drew03cmc reply :
Medium rod, 15/4 Power Pro Super Slick, 8# copolymer leader, set the d**n hook and reel the fish in.
jimmyjoe reply :
I'm fishing tomorrow. Will try these things. Will get back 2 u. jj
jimmyjoe reply :
They were biting this morning.
@dodgeguy had the answer. Braid definitely wasn't the answer. I took along a reel with 10 lb. 832, and I took a medium power rod. No difference. I even put the braid on the medium rod. That just lost me distance. I tried a set of 1/2 ounce lures, but they weren't hitting bigger lures, with the exception of 1/2 ounce Johnson Thinfishers.
Of all the things that made a difference, keeping my rod tip down was #1. I have no idea why. I can't understand how my keeping a rod tip down back here makes any difference to an acrobatic fish way out there. But it does.
I especially don't understand it because these fish are hitting within 5 feet of the surface; most of them hit within 2 feet if the sun isn't high yet.
Now yes, I lessened my drag a little. But if I loosen it too much, I get line twist on the hookset. And I did slack off on the retrieve pressure after the hookset. That seemed to help some, but neither of these things did as much as dropping my rod tip.
Why? Please tell me, because I'm clueless. jj
islandbass reply :
Do you currently have trebles on your spoons? One thing that would help and this is from my personal experience is to switch them out for a single hook, like a siwash hook.
Also, how far is way out there for you? The farther your cast is and the shorter your rod, the less control you will have over your line, including on the hookset. The advice given to you by the flyfisher is spot on. There is a reason people who target salmon and steelhead use 8'6 and up. Line control and the better chances of setting the hook from, as in your own words, "wayyyy out there." lol.
Lastly, one other thing to keep in mind is to maintain tension in the line when you have a fish on. Any slack you give them gives them a chance to jump. Having the rod being "up" or "down" needs to be clarified. If you are holding your rod "up" in such a way that your rod is practically perpendicular to the earth is a no-no when you're fighting a fish OR setting the hook. 45 degrees is the ideal for the most power in the hook set and in the controlling the fish. You see, 45 degrees is "up" from the rod pointing down, but it is "down" relative to 90 degrees. Using your rod in this manner greatly increases your chances of landing the fish and is a sign you are using your tool effectively and efficiently.
WRB reply :
On 7/22/2019 at 11:07 PM, jimmyjoe said:They were biting this morning.
@dodgeguy had the answer. Braid definitely wasn't the answer. I took along a reel with 10 lb. 832, and I took a medium power rod. No difference. I even put the braid on the medium rod. That just lost me distance. I tried a set of 1/2 ounce lures, but they weren't hitting bigger lures, with the exception of 1/2 ounce Johnson Thinfishers.
Of all the things that made a difference, keeping my rod tip down was #1. I have no idea why. I can't understand how my keeping a rod tip down back here makes any difference to an acrobatic fish way out there. But it does.
I especially don't understand it because these fish are hitting within 5 feet of the surface; most of them hit within 2 feet if the sun isn't high yet.
Now yes, I lessened my drag a little. But if I loosen it too much, I get line twist on the hookset. And I did slack off on the retrieve pressure after the hookset. That seemed to help some, but neither of these things did as much as dropping my rod tip.
Why? Please tell me, because I'm clueless. jj
Keeping the rod tip down you take out the rod flex and that's how you should make your hook set, reel with the rod pointed at the fish until the line is tight taking all the slack out of the line then sweep the rod back.
Tom
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/22/2019 at 11:30 PM, islandbass said:how far is way out there for you?
Don't know. Can't walk on water. ???????????????? jj
On 7/22/2019 at 11:43 PM, WRB said:Keeping the rod tip down you take out the rod flex and that's how you should make your hook set, reel with the rod pointed at the fish until the line is tight taking all the slack out of the line then sweep the rod back.
Tom
I see now the confusion possible in "keeping the rod tip down". Never thought of it that way before.
What I meant when I said that I kept the rod tip down, was that after the hookset and during the fight, I kept the rod tip pointed down relative to my grip level. The only thing that I can think of is that this drug the line lower in the water column, making more resistance for the fish that was trying to broach. But there were a couple hits within two seconds of the lure hitting the water, and I fail to see how this had any effect in those instances.
Maybe it wasn't just one thing by itself, but maybe the combination of all three changes that I made that did the trick. Who knows?
Oh, well. One of life's little mysteries. At least it's solved ..... for now.
Thnx, everyone. And thank you, @dodgeguy jj
P.S. Hooks are sharp. Got a Band-Aid to testify to that. ????
WRB reply :
If a bass more then 20' away you lower the rod tip down into the water does little stop a bass from jumping. If you make a long cast getting a hook set using a rod swing from 10 O'clock to 12 O'clock doesn't more the hook at all no mater how hard or how long and powerful the rod is unless the line is tight to start with. Do the math or a physical test. Reel set and rod sweep. The reel moves anywhere from 20" to 24" of line with each rotation.
Tom
dodgeguy reply :
On 7/22/2019 at 11:07 PM, jimmyjoe said:They were biting this morning.
@dodgeguy had the answer. Braid definitely wasn't the answer. I took along a reel with 10 lb. 832, and I took a medium power rod. No difference. I even put the braid on the medium rod. That just lost me distance. I tried a set of 1/2 ounce lures, but they weren't hitting bigger lures, with the exception of 1/2 ounce Johnson Thinfishers.
Of all the things that made a difference, keeping my rod tip down was #1. I have no idea why. I can't understand how my keeping a rod tip down back here makes any difference to an acrobatic fish way out there. But it does.
I especially don't understand it because these fish are hitting within 5 feet of the surface; most of them hit within 2 feet if the sun isn't high yet.
Now yes, I lessened my drag a little. But if I loosen it too much, I get line twist on the hookset. And I did slack off on the retrieve pressure after the hookset. That seemed to help some, but neither of these things did as much as dropping my rod tip.
Why? Please tell me, because I'm clueless. jj
Keeping the rod tip down or in the water lessens your upward pull keeping the fish down. You loose the fish when the line goes slack and they wing it back at you. Glad to be of help.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/23/2019 at 2:31 AM, WRB said:f a bass more then 20' away you lower the rod tip down into the water does little stop a bass from jumping.
Absolutely correct. The bass didn't stop jumping. They just didn't throw the hook like before. And that, after all, is what I wanted to achieve.
On 7/23/2019 at 6:25 AM, dodgeguy said:Keeping the rod tip down or in the water lessens your upward pull keeping the fish down. You loose the fish when the line goes slack and they won't it back at you. Glad to be of help.
Evidently this is the correct answer. I say that not because I understand mathematics or physics, which I don't, but because I saw the results. And I'm a firm believer that what you see is what is true, even though you might not be able to explain it.
At any rate, I have a nice place to fish now, without it being so frustrating. Like I said ..... Thnx all. jj
islandbass reply :
On 7/23/2019 at 1:15 AM, jimmyjoe said:Don't know. Can't walk on water. ???????????????? jj
I did once but that is a story for another day, lol. I can loan you a tape measure, fins and a life preserver, lol.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/23/2019 at 6:51 AM, islandbass said:I did once but that is a story for another day, lol. I can loan you a tape measure, fins and a life preserver, lol.
Someday , and I've been saying this for years, but someday I'll have to go someplace open and measure my casts. I used to have a 100' tape, but it disappeared years ago. I used to shoot 100 yard benchrest, and if I had to pin down a distance by sheer guess, I'd guess between 65 and 75 yards. Between my ego, my poor eyesight and my bad memory, that estimate might be waaaaay off. ???? jj
MassYak85 reply :
If you are confident that you are keeping tension on the fish when they jump then the ultimate reason they are getting off on a consistent basis is the rod. If it doesn't have enough bend to stay loaded during headshakes you're land ratio will go down. I like braid, but I hear you on the wind knots, they drive me insane. I also don't think switching to braid buys you anything after the hook is set so if you're getting good hookups I don't see any reason to switch. If you feel fish are getting off because you aren't getting solid hooksets then braid will help but so will upsizing your line a bit and just swinging harder or tightening the drag a bit.
Yumeya reply :
I would use braid 
all my rods have braid...even my crankbait rod, its glass and has plenty of flex for
holding onto fish with trebles.
It sounds like to me you are not getting a good enough hook set to begin with and the braid being no stretch
would help that a lot.
GreenPig reply :
Long cast and 6 lb mono is a perfect combo for a difficult hook set on trebles. You say you're casting 65 to 75 yards. Couple that with 25%+(per Berkley website) line stretch and those barbs aren't getting sunk. You're getting 48.75' to 56.25' of line stretch on a hook set which is why they're being prematurely released. Gonna need a good stiff extremely long rod to compensate for that much stretch. Go braid . I've spooled my 1000 Stradic ci4+ and 6'9" medium-light fast rod with Berkley Fireline Ultra 8 Carrier 8 lb to a FC leader and it'll launch a 1/10 Ned completely out of sight.
jimmyjoe reply :
On 7/23/2019 at 2:28 PM, GreenPig said:Long cast and 6 lb mono is a perfect combo for a difficult hook set on trebles. You say you're casting 65 to 75 yards. Couple that with 25%+(per Berkley website) line stretch and those barbs aren't getting sunk. You're getting 48.75' to 56.25' of line stretch on a hook set which is why they're being prematurely released. Gonna need a good stiff extremely long rod to compensate for that much stretch. Go braid . I've spooled my 1000 Stradic ci4+ and 6'9" medium-light fast rod with Berkley Fireline Ultra 8 Carrier 8 lb to a FC leader and it'll launch a 1/10 Ned completely out of sight.
But do you have any trouble with wind knots? I used a NASCI 1000, and had more trouble with wind knots than I did with any other reel. And that's with every line I used on it. I used Nanofil, Sufix 832 and some other (forgotten) line. I had the least trouble with a 2500SH Fuego. jj
GreenPig reply :
On 7/23/2019 at 7:56 PM, jimmyjoe said:But do you have any trouble with wind knots? I used a NASCI 1000, and had more trouble with wind knots than I did with any other reel. And that's with every line I used on it. I used Nanofil, Sufix 832 and some other (forgotten) line. I had the least trouble with a 2500SH Fuego. jj
No problem with winds knots yet. I've fished with it 10 to 12 trips, usually 6 to 9 hours a trip. I do occasionally apply KVD line conditioner and always after spooling it. Loose line is the popular cause of wind knots but I believe anytime I've had problems with them it was due to line twist. I use Spro power swivels when fishing spoons to prevent line twist. The 2500 is definitely going to be less problematic with it larger spool in my opinion. If I planned on casting 65 to 75 yards I'd choose the 2500 over a 1000 reel everyday. A 1000 holds 110 yards of #6 while the 2500 holds 200 yards of #6. My average cast with the 1000 is most likely 25 yards and under.
On 7/23/2019 at 7:56 PM, jimmyjoe said:But do you have any trouble with wind knots? I used a NASCI 1000, and had more trouble with wind knots than I did with any other reel. And that's with every line I used on it. I used Nanofil, Sufix 832 and some other (forgotten) line. I had the least trouble with a 2500SH Fuego. jj
Verify your line roller is rotating smoothly. Closing reel manually? Not everybody does.
jimmyjoe reply :
Well, I told @islandbass that someday I'd measure my cast, and someday came today.
And boy, am I ever embarrassed! I went to a local park, and stood at the corner of a white building, casting the same spoons that I fish with as far as I could into an open area with no kids or dogs. I then took a laser rangefinder, walked to my lure and shot the building. My shortest cast (the very first one) was 54.1 yards. Longest one was only 57.6 yards. The other 10 or 11 were between 55 and 57.6. I could NOT reach 60 yards. I tried another reel with 6 lb. Stren, and results were the same.
Then I made a really, really stupid mistake. I went to the local tackle store, and had my NASCI 1000 spools loaded up with 4 lb. Fireline Ultra 8, and the other with 8 lb. original PowerPro. ( I heard the Fireline was actually 50% higher strength than the rating, so that would be 6 lb. The 8 lb. P-P was the lightest he had in stock. )
1) The PowerPro didn't cast any farther than the mono. The didn't particularly surprise me, since the 1000 is a smaller diameter spool lip.
2) The Fireline made 60 yards .... but just barely. Maybe it's OK, and maybe not. I'll have to use it more.
3) that &%?*+$# PowerPro gave me a wind knot on the 5th cast. Junk. Trash. Garbage. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on that worthless .....s ...s ... stuff.
I knew I shouldn't have tried braid. I knew that it's garbage. I should have known that I'd just get wind knots. But nooooo .... like an idiot, I tried it anyway.
LIKE THE POST SAYS ..... NO BRAID, NO WAY!
So what's my solution? I guess I'll start looking for a longer rod. That's the best idea so far. And I'll use MONOFILAMENT with it! MONOFILAMENT ONLY! ???????????? jj
cyclops2 reply :
I adjust lead weights to the force needed to cast 4# mono & 1.5" Rapalas into beginning white caps. I get a lot of mid day small white caps. Often the wind & current are almost diagonal directions. Back to trolling. Wind & waves are great for many fish munching on anything.
islandbass reply :
On 7/24/2019 at 9:08 AM, jimmyjoe said:Well, I told @islandbass that someday I'd measure my cast, and someday came today.
And boy, am I ever embarrassed! I went to a local park, and stood at the corner of a white building, casting the same spoons that I fish with as far as I could into an open area with no kids or dogs. I then took a laser rangefinder, walked to my lure and shot the building. My shortest cast (the very first one) was 54.1 yards. Longest one was only 57.6 yards. The other 10 or 11 were between 55 and 57.6. I could NOT reach 60 yards. I tried another reel with 6 lb. Stren, and results were the same.
Then I made a really, really stupid mistake. I went to the local tackle store, and had my NASCI 1000 spools loaded up with 4 lb. Fireline Ultra 8, and the other with 8 lb. original PowerPro. ( I heard the Fireline was actually 50% higher strength than the rating, so that would be 6 lb. The 8 lb. P-P was the lightest he had in stock. )
1) The PowerPro didn't cast any farther than the mono. The didn't particularly surprise me, since the 1000 is a smaller diameter spool lip.
2) The Fireline made 60 yards .... but just barely. Maybe it's OK, and maybe not. I'll have to use it more.
3) that &%?*+$# PowerPro gave me a wind knot on the 5th cast. Junk. Trash. Garbage. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on that worthless .....s ...s ... stuff.
I knew I shouldn't have tried braid. I knew that it's garbage. I should have known that I'd just get wind knots. But nooooo .... like an idiot, I tried it anyway.
LIKE THE POST SAYS ..... NO BRAID, NO WAY!
So what's my solution? I guess I'll start looking for a longer rod. That's the best idea so far. And I'll use MONOFILAMENT with it! MONOFILAMENT ONLY! ???????????? jj
Thanks for reporting your findings.
A longer rod would definitely help. See if you can find an 8’6” or 9’6” medium powered rod, spinning or casting, your choice. In my neck of the woods both lengths are quite common. You would probably meet that same distance with much less effort and exceed it with the same. The downside is a longer rod does weight more but nothing is perfect. And don’t forget to swap those silly trebles for a single hook. Siwash hooks are a great choice. The neat thing with them is they come open eyed so you won’t need split ring pliers. Just simply put the spoon’s split ring in the open eye and close the eye shut with pliers.
I realize braids traits are pretty decent, ie thinner diameter for more strength, near zero stretch, fishing in the think grass and pads, but then I realized I hardly ever face that condition. Braid compared to mono and Fluoro for more has also caught the fewest fish for me.
Fluro is awesome but so dang pricey. Can I afford it? Yes. It’s refractive index is impressive, but how much farther off is mono from it?
As for mono, it’s economical and works fairly well and is reliable and although it has memory, which can be unsightly, I have not noticed any loss in fish catching. Mono is my line of choice now and for the past near decade.
Those anglers of yesteryear who are still alive today and forgotten more than we know about fishing only had mono and they kicked phanny.
Please note I am not knocking braid or fc. I like those lines but I choose mono for its cost effectiveness (bottom line for me) and results. I might still use 6# fc line. particularly Seaguar invisx if I feel like splurging on line but $22 for 200 yards is a tough pill to swallow. Why?
Because the environment I use it in is primarily is drop shotting in rip rap from the shore. Forced break offs happen often and in one outing I could lose 15 yards easy. 2 sessions later with the an average loss of line and now my reel is no longer at optimum operating capacity.
I know I told JFrancho I’d try tatsu but when I saw the price, WOW!! It costs more than a Berkeley cherrywood rod, lol. Maybe I’ll treat myself to it soon.
The Bassman reply :
In my experience wind knots happen when I force my casts. I bank fish and frequently push for distance. Others have mentioned that the distance lost by not forcing (snap casting) is really minimal. The OCD in me tends to forget this.
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