Question: Surface water temp for determining seasonal pattern 2024
Jim Bridger reply :
When using water temperature to determine current seasonal behavior, is that surface water temp or temp down where the fish are?
If the temp I need to know is down where they are, how do we get that?
thank you for all the help!
Catt reply :
I don't use temperature for much of anything 
Jim Bridger reply :
How do you determine seasonal pattern?
Catt reply :
On 3/25/2017 at 2:42 AM, Jim Bridger said:How do you determine seasonal pattern?
Go outside
Jim Bridger reply :
I'm not sure that applies in my case exactly. I live in the UP of Michigan, we still have snow on the ground the lakes are froze up. Down south right now, bass are in the various states of pre-spawn, spawn and post-spawn. When the lakes do thaw in the next month I would figure the fish would be still in a winter pattern until may when the water warms enough for them to begin prespawn/spawn, cause I know in late May bluegill will be spawning and that's important cause bluegills use the bass beds when the bass are done with them.
I can guess roughly, but I'm looking for benchmarks to determine these patterns for lakes and areas I am not familiar with...meaning not local.
everythingthatswims reply :
To me, 50 degrees is the magic number where the fish really start to get going and most baits will catch them if you find a situation to fit that bait. However, length of the day/angle of the sun as spring progresses has far more to do with it than you would think, THEY KNOW! A fish in late March in 45 degree water is going to be acting a lot different than a fish in 45 degree water in December.
WRB reply :
Do a search for The Cosmic Clock and Bass Calendar, based on bass body temps at the depth they are at. Surface temps in the morning are fairly good indicator. Today we tend to locate bass using sonar to determine active bass feeding depth. Back in the early 70's when I put this calendar together used bass body temps with a probe down thier throat.
Tom
RoLo reply :
During a typical spawning cycle, water temperatures will seesaw back-&-forth between
warm fronts & cold fronts. As a result, water temps seen in the pre-spawn may be seen again
during the post-spawn, and vice versa, so which temperatures are you going to believe? ?
I only place emphasis on 'temperature extremes', when bass may become stressed
by frigid or torrid extremes.
In the second place, water temperatures that coincide with the disposition of northern-strain bass
are very different from the water temperatures that coincide with the behavior of Florida-strain bass.
It's my opinion that water temperature is simply a coincident indicator rather than a trigger,
and the coincidence is often remarkable, but a coincidence nonetheless.
I personally place greater emphasis on 'photoperiod' (i.e. calendar period) , which I've found
to be far more reliable than zigzag water temperatures.
Roger
BassWhole! reply :
On 3/25/2017 at 3:17 AM, RoLo said:
During a normal spawning cycle, water temperatures commonly seesaw sharply back-&-forth
between warm & cold fronts. Consequently, water temps seen in the pre-spawn may be seen again
during the post-spawn, and vice versa, so which temperatures are you going to believe??
I only place emphasis on water temperature extremes, when bass may be stressed
by frigid or torrid extremes.
In the second place, water temperatures that coincide with the disposition of northern-strain bass,
are very different from the water temperatures that coincide with the behavior of Florida-strain bass.
It's my opinion that water temperature is only a coincident indicator rather than a trigger,
and that coincidence is often remarkable, but a coincidence nonetheless.
instead, I place greater emphasis on 'photoperiod' (i.e. calendar period) ,
which I find to be far more faithful than erratic water temperatures.
Roger
One of the reasons LMBs do so well in so many places around the world is that they can spawn in varying climatic conditions, not just that but they can also delay the spawn if conditions suddenly become unfavorable, additionally they can spawn in, and the eggs will tolerate a larger range of temperature than other fish. That being said, with few exceptions spawning will occur when water temps are between 16 and 22 Celsius.
Catt reply :
Get on the water!
I guarantee ya it starts earlier than ya think!
Start at ice out which will still be winter patterns, once ya locate where they holding start looking at near by structure leading towards pre-spawn feeding areas.
gimruis reply :
On 3/25/2017 at 12:54 AM, Jim Bridger said:When using water temperature to determine current seasonal behavior, is that surface water temp or temp down where the fish are?
If the temp I need to know is down where they are, how do we get that?
thank you for all the help!
Every single species of fish out there spawns when the water temperature reaches a specific parameter, including largemouth and smallmouth bass. Both species are warm water species of freshwater fish in addition, so they are more active when the water is warmer rather than when it is colder. Studies have proven that bass are basically in a hibernation mode during winter under the ice (northern strain bass). In the spring, I look for warmer water. The lakes are still locked up in ice here and bass season doesn't start until May so I literally can't even begin to think about a seasonal pattern until then. I agree with everythingthatswims, 50 degrees is a pretty good starting number for water temperature.
IndianaFinesse reply :
Unless you are dropping a thermometer down on a rope, it is impossible to measure the temperature at the depth the bass are at. So we usually are just going by surface temps when we talk about temperature. While the light angle is the factor that seems to trigger the full scale migration to the spawning areas, water temperature is a decent guideline for when it will happen. They will spawn in the same time frame every year in your area/lake, plus or minus a week or two depending on the year. I use water temperature (surface) as more of an educated guess for how active the fish are, and how likely there is to be a small scale movement to the neareby shallows.
In every region there seems to be a magic temperature that gets the bass moving towards the shallows and active, around here (and apparently in west Virginia also) it is about 50 degrees. That's when they usually start moving into the openings of coves and when more options are available than the standard winter baits.
Catt reply :
At what temperature does the ice on the lake start melting?
I aint a Yankee, we don't have ice on our lakes but as a dumb Cajun I understand until Roger's "photoperiod" starts changing (days getting longer) the ice ain't gonna start melting!
scaleface reply :
You can buy inexpensive battery operated temperature probes . I use to have one and used quite a bit . Mine was a temp/light meter . I was surprised to see zero light in ten foot of muddy spring-time water . Also, in the summer the light and temp would slowly change until it hit the thermocline then the changes were drastic . I bought mine at Bass Pro . I recommend one . I need to get another .
I just looked for one with no luck . Maybe they are no longer made .
WRB reply :
On 3/25/2017 at 10:58 AM, IndianaFinesse said:Unless you are dropping a thermometer down on a rope, it is impossible to measure the temperature at the depth the bass are at. So we usually are just going by surface temps when we talk about temperature. While the light angle is the factor that seems to trigger the full scale migration to the spawning areas, water temperature is a decent guideline for when it will happen. They will spawn in the same time frame every year in your area/lake, plus or minus a week or two depending on the year. I use water temperature (surface) as more of an educated guess for how active the fish are, and how likely there is to be a small scale movement to the neareby shallows.
In every region there seems to be a magic temperature that gets the bass moving towards the shallows and active, around here (and apparently in west Virginia also) it is about 50 degrees. That's when they usually start moving into the openings of coves and when more options are available than the standard winter baits.
All you need to do to measure the water temps the bass are in at any depth is catch it, put a digital temp probe in it's throat at determine body temperature. Bass are cold blooded animals body temp = water temp they are acclimated in. The physical problem with bass that spawn in water less than 58 degrees is the eggs take weeks to hatch and get eaten. Warmer the water the faster the eggs hatch and higher the recruitment or survival rate.
Ideal temps are 62-67.
It's easy to determine when bass transition from pre spawn to the spawn, males are up making beds and females are cruising the spawning areas, it's visual!
The lakes I fish exact spawn time changes every year, could be Feburary to April at lakes Casitas, Castaic, Chacuma, Piru, Pyrimde, DVL , all within a 75 mile radius, the bass start to bed depending on stable weather and water temps. Big Bear lake is about 50 miles from DVL for example and in the photo period zone, still has snow and ice, maybe June there.
Catt makes the argument that bass are pre spawn shortly after post spawn becuase eggs start to develop, good point. Most anglers think of pre spawn as the staging period prior to the spawn.
The spawn is on now since early March at most of the lakes I fish this year.
We all have different experiences and beliefs, I published mine over 40 years ago and nothing changed.
Tom
RoLo reply :
Somehow this thread morphed into patterning the spawning cycle rather than seasonal periods (guilty as charged).
Happily, photoperiod runs lockstep with the Gregorian Calendar.
On most natural lakes and nearly every impoundment, there's an annual fall bonanza when schoolies
inhale crankbaits with abandon. From now on: write down the date -AND- the water temperature.
Ten years from now you're going to discover a very interesting pattern.
You'll most likely find that the fall blitzkriegs occurred during wildly different water temperatures,
but the calendar month and weeks have repeated with remarkable similarity.
Roger
WRB reply :
Roger I am not trying to say the photo period doesn't have an affect, it does.
I think the fall period has more to do with photothynsis as day light is reduced and green plants start to go into winter dormate periods. Baitfish lose thier cover and predators take advantage feeding to fatten up for the lean winter cold water period.
My majority bass fishing experiences are in small deep structured lakes or highland/hill land type terrain with steep rocky banks and sparse cover. Every time I visit central or southern Florida or the delta area with the coastal shallow cover being dominate locating bass is difficult for me to know where to start unless it's the spawn cycle. More at home in northern Florida or anywhere the lakes and rivers are more familiar to me. We all have different experiences, where Catt learned to bass fish on Toledo Bend would be very challenging do to it's size and deversity of terrain requires a lot of skills to be consistant at locating bass and I tip my hat to him. Was it Poor Richards Alamac that first made note of seasonal periods, when to plant what? Always enjoy your posts!
Tom
RoLo reply :
On 3/26/2017 at 1:29 AM, WRB said:I am not trying to say the photo period doesn't have an affect, it does.
I think the fall period has more to do with photothynsis as day light is reduced and green plants
start to go into winter dormate periods.
I'm afraid I'm missing your point entirely.
'Photosynthesis' is founded directly on 'photoperiod', the two are inseparable.
The entire vegetable kingdom is controlled by photoperiod, which I believe spills over to the animal kingdom.
My point is simple, water temperatures are erratic, calendar periods are repeatable.
Right now in Florida, my tomato plants are in, and our bass are spawning,
it's the same calendar period 'every' year.
Roger
Catt reply :
On 3/26/2017 at 1:50 AM, RoLo said:It's the same calendar period 'every' year.
Roger
Exactly right
Seasonal Patterns!
It's easy tracking bass through pre-spawn & on to post spawn, the urgency to feed up before laying eggs got em consecrated in a particular area.
The same is true of the Fall seasonal pattern, again the urge to feed has them in almost the same particular areas.
Hard seasonal patterns are Dog Days of Summer into Winter & then winter into the Dead of Winter.
Two of my favorites & when I catch my biggest bass.
Oh! By the way the first day of "spring" 2017 was not march 20 down south but it was the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!
@RoLo I'll be eating cucumbers & tomatoes in about a week
Neil McCauley reply :
On 3/25/2017 at 2:05 AM, Catt said:I don't use temperature for much of anything
Huh?? 
Sorry but that is for lack of a better term simply BS. Other than water depth, water temperature is one of the #1 factors in when and how I fish. Water at 45 vs 55*F makes fishing vastly different. Bass are not warm blooded...their behavior revolves very much around temp. Temperature dictates the spawn, it dictates feeding activity, fighting, lure sizes, presentation, pretty much everything. IMO it is more important than cloud cover, wind, barometric pressure, precipitation, all combined, at least on lakes I fish that range 32-75*F over the seasons.
scaleface reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 12:52 AM, Neil McCauley said:
Huh??Sorry but that is for lack of a better term simply BS. Other than water depth, water temperature is one of the #1 factors in when and how I fish. Water at 45 vs 55*F makes fishing vastly different. Bass are not warm blooded...their behavior revolves very much around temp. Temperature dictates the spawn, it dictates feeding activity, fighting, lure sizes, presentation, pretty much everything. IMO it is more important than cloud cover, wind, barometric pressure, precipitation, all combined, at least on lakes I fish that range 32-75*F over the seasons.
Different geographies . I agree with you , though .
Catt reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 12:52 AM, Neil McCauley said:
Huh??
Some people need a crutch
OCdockskipper reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 12:52 AM, Neil McCauley said:
Huh??
I would rather know what time of year it is and not know the water temp than the other way around. For example, water temps dropping 5 degrees overnight in the spring is a different scenario than when that occurs in the fall (at least in waters south of the Mason-Dixon line).
Surface temp is a piece of the puzzle, but I would suggest that since it is a result of other factors (weather, time of year), if it isn't known, it won't stop you from catching fish.
A-Jay reply :
Doesn't the season determine the seasonal pattern ?
A-Jay
Catt reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 2:55 AM, A-Jay said:Doesn't the season determine the seasonal pattern ?
A-Jay
Yes
The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!
Pre-spawn (spring for the bass) started in early January.
Water temperatures started warming in early January but only surface & a few inches under the surface because what was gained in daylight was lost after sunset.
Confused yet?
A-Jay reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 5:52 AM, Catt said:
Yes
The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!
Pre-spawn (spring for the bass) started in early January.
Water temperatures started warming in early January but only surface & a few inches under the surface because what was gained in daylight was lost after sunset.
Confused yet?
Confused ? Perhaps.
I'm going to call it learning.
A-Jay
WRB reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 5:52 AM, Catt said:
Yes
The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!
Pre-spawn (spring for the bass) started in early January.
Water temperatures started warming in early January but only surface & a few inches under the surface because what was gained in daylight was lost after sunset.
Confused yet?
No!
Water is thermally conductive so the surface warms and cools faster then the core water below it. Add water density the colder it is the heavier it gets and sinks below the warmer water....until it gets 34.9 degrees, then it get lighter density and start to float on top of 35 or warmer water, continues to get colder near the surface and freezes in very cold climates.
Surfacectemps only tell you what the surface water is, 3' down the water can be very different temp, deeper it's more temp change. Bass seek a temperature zone that they prefer, warmer in cold water and cooler in hot water if they can.
Deep subject for those who want to know about bass behavior. Sonar has lessened the need to know why bass locate deeper, anglers can find the bass and target them at the depth they are using.
Seasonal periods help to get you started at the highest percentage locations, bass don't always cooperate and do things their way.
Tom
Catt reply :
@WRB
Water warms from the top down would you not agree?
Until daylight (warming period) becomes longer than nights (cooling period) the water temperature will not warm but a degree or 2. Depending on nighttime lows daytime gains will be lost. Add in winds which again cools the surface.
12poundbass reply :
I remember somebody a while back started a thread about conflicting info in the fishing world...?
I'm reading all posts and learning.
WRB reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 6:22 AM, Catt said:@WRB
Water warms from the top down would you not agree?
Until daylight (warming period) becomes longer than nights (cooling period) the water temperature will not warm but a degree or 2. Depending on nighttime lows daytime gains will be lost. Add in winds which again cools the surface.
Yep, add the depth of the water and the mass cools very slowly, wind mixes the water slowing the warming time more. Calm shallow water warms faster then deep windy areas.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
On 3/27/2017 at 5:52 AM, Catt said:
The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!
Nope – day length starts increasing right after the winter solstice in December.
Timing of ‘ice out’ (where applicable) and the warming of the water in spring is obviously correlated to day length, but it varies from year to year based on weather.
Victoria BC and Kenora ON have approximately the same latitude – no difference in day length. I imagine Kenora is still iced in, but lakes around Victoria rarely ever freeze (mildest winters in all of Canada). Based on identical “photoperiods,” would you expect the timing of seasonal patterns in these locations to be identical?
WRB reply :
Where I am located in SoCal high altitude lakes like Big Bear lake has 3' of snow, ice free on the main and still has some ice in protected bays/coves....I see the mountains from my home where most of the lower elevation lakes nearby are in the spawn cycle. The difference isn't length of day or night or photoperiod, it's alititude 700 feet vs 7,000 feet.
I agree the photoperiod, longer warmer days coupled with shorter warmer night and mild weather warms the water and coincides with the basses annual regional spawning cycle.
Debating the exceptions has little to do with bass fishing in general.
I also agree with Catt that the summer period is both the most productive in catching numbers of bass and the most difficult to locate big bass. I catch more big bass during pre spawn. If anglers would understand that big bass prefer mild mid 70 degree water over warmer mid 80 degree water they would catch more summer bass. Mid lake humps, long points have cooler water do to wind or dam current upwelling flowing up and over the structure and big bass make those areas home., lots of prey, comfortable and usually un disturbed areas.
Winter cold water 40-50 degrees
Pre Spawn, warming water 50-60 degrees
Spawn, calm warm water 60-70 degrees
Post spawn, warm water 70-75 degrees
summer, warmer water 75-85 degrees
Fall, cooling water 70-60 degrees
Ball park values at the depth the bass are in.
Tom
fissure_man reply :
Good info @WRB. I’ve no qualms with your points. But if you’re referring to my example as an exception I’d disagree. Bass start spawning at different times of year in different locations – the critical difference (IMO) is temperature, but could “photoperiod” really be the main driver as other posts suggest? The example I gave (and also your example of Big Bear Lake) demonstrate that’s probably not the case – these are locations with the same “photoperiod” conditions, different temperatures, and predictably different spawn initiation timing.
If day length (aka “photoperiod”) really is the driver, consider that the spring equinox is the time of year when day length is roughly the same all over the planet. In some locations the spawn will begin before the spring equinox, in others it will be long after (again, temperature).
Another example from up here: large, deep lakes that are slow to warm (such as Lake Ontario) will have a later spawn than smaller, shallower lakes that warm up quickly in the spring. Same day length, angle to the sun, air temp, altitude, etc.
I fish a (very) large sandy bay on Lake Erie – max depth 10 ft. This is prime smallmouth spawning habitat, and they’re in there thick in the spring (closed season). By late summer they move back out into the cooler water of the main lake, and the timing of their departure depends on temperature.
My point of view is from the north, maybe this is different down south? When springtime water temperatures are suitable for egg/fry survival for much longer window (vs. northern lakes), maybe other factors (photoperiod) become increasingly important.
In any case, the OP is in Michigan; IMO the posts suggesting he should ignore temperature are bad advice.
Jim Bridger reply :
This is some really great feedback and I appreciate everyone's input. My take away from the responses is the following:
- Photoperiod signals to the fish a type of behavior (seasonal pattern ie: pre-spawn, spawn, post-spawn)
- Temperature seems to be dictated by comfort levels of the fish...when they're willing to spawn for example and we all know this is more of a range of temperatures (not exactly a hard and fast rule of a one temperature across the board but a range of 3 degrees or so, and different temps because not all bass prefer to do the same behavior at the same temperature).
I was looking for a hard a fast rule to use, but it seems much more clear to me bass behavior is a little more difficult to understand from a single bit of data, and my best bet is to learn what it looks like when bass are in each seasonal pattern and to learn at what temperatures those patterns begin in certain regions/water bodies.
Something else someone mentioned that had not occurred to me before was how photoperiod effects the plant kingdom which in turn affects the animal kingdom...I think there is more to this than we realize, perhaps increased oxygen in the water from the growing plants plays a part in this, perhaps its the increased forage hiding in these newly sprouted plants...it could be some of this or none of it, but something I thought was interesting and worth pondering.
Again, thank you to everyone for throwing in your 2 cents, I thoroughly enjoyed reading all your posts!
Respectfully,
Jim
Catt reply :
Most anglers look for a single "bullet", mother nature has a clip full of em!
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