Is It Cheating? 2024
jc450rr reply :
Saturday SPRO held a crankbait only tournament at Guntersville. We didn't finish in the money but still it was a great tournament and good ledge fishing..... I got an email from SPRO that was sent out to everybody that competed in the tournament with the lie detector results. The winners used electronics from somebody who works at SPRO and that person also have a guide service on guntersville. The question was asked "Did they use any of the waypoints?" They said no and passed the test. In your opinion is this cheating or just shady?
Sam reply :
Depends on the tournament rules.
What do the rules say about the use of waypoints?
Waypoints are used in tournaments all the time and by using the SPRO and guide's data they may have received a strong advantage but it may not be illegal.
it is sad to read that someone had to do this and damage the tournament's competitive spirit.
But sometimes guys and gals need help from outsiders to do well and it seems this angler in question received a nice advantage which may not have been illegal.
Shady? Yes.
Cheating? No.
Thornback reply :
Good to hear you had a fun time. That's good sportsmanship attitude when you don't win. If I understand your post -- the winners passed the lie detector test, so unless there is proof of cheating, that should be the final word. Case closed.
jc450rr reply :
The rules stated "No Guides" but didn't make any mention of waypoints. I wasn't in contention to win,but had I known a contestant was using a SPRO employee's electronics I would have never signed up. It seems extremely shady. We had a great time as this was my wife's first tournament but we may choose another tournament to fish
the reel ess reply :
Seems shady to me too. I don't like that about tourneys. Everybody's looking hard for an edge. I know people complaining about cheating in take-a-kid crappie tourneys.
I knew another guy when I was a kid who sunk gutted appliances at every spot he had all over the lake a couple weeks before a tourney to enhance the spots. Then he'd only enter tourneys on that lake. He won or placed in almost every one he could get in.
flyfisher reply :
it is definitely shady and since this is a SPRO tournament and a SPRO employee was involved in providing the waypoints, at a minimum, if i owned SPRO, that guy would be fired for unethical behavior that impacts the competitiveness and spirit of the event.
I also find it very hard to believe that they didn't use the waypoints, maybe not day of the tournament but i am sure they review them to use from memory at a later time.
tomustang reply :
Do a lot of tourneys hand out polygraphs to the winners? Furthermore it's not like their accurate
MIbassyaker reply :
On 6/1/2015 at 11:42 PM, tomustang said:Do a lot of tourneys hand out polygraphs to the winners? Furthermore it's not like their accurate
Seriously. Several decades of controlled experiments have shown pretty conclusively polygraphs don't distinguish truth-telling from lying well at all. I would not put much stock in the lie detection results.
Fisher-O-men reply :
LIe detectors for fishermen? Seems paradoxical!
MIbassyaker reply :
On 6/2/2015 at 12:36 AM, Fisher-O-men said:LIe detectors for fishermen? Seems paradoxical!
If he passes, he's not a fisherman!
WPCfishing reply :
THANKS FOR THE INVASION OF PRIVACY UPDATE.
If there were concerns about cheating going on they should have had checkers on the water during the tournament.
I find this LD action disgraceful. I highly recommend a boycott against SPRO.
*Hootie reply :
Use only Spro lures? Sounds like you didn't participate in a tournament, you participated in a commercial.
Hootie
Abuss55 reply :
Certainly sounds shady to me, I feel like using electronics from a guide on a waterway that has waypoints in it should not be allowed in the first place and should constitute an immediate forfeit, but I didnt write the rules. Also, lie detecors for fishing... seriously?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day and drink beer.
bassless reply :
When you hire a guide you are paying for his knowledge of the local lake. Having a guides electronics with all of his waypoints is effectively having a guide...so I say it's cheating according to your "no guides" rule.
Also, polygraph results are fairly controversial...probably more so when administered by some folks who are running a fishing tournament.
People will always cheat...no matter what the contest...no matter how small the "prize"...even if it's just for pride or to be "known" as the guy who wins.
Alonerankin2 reply :
I agree, it's shady. If nothing else a conflict of interest.
gardnerjigman reply :
It gave them an unfair advantage that not all other anglers had access to.
Why use the other persons electronics if you don't use the waypoints?
Gotfishyfingers? reply :
On 6/2/2015 at 8:21 AM, gardnerjigman said:It gave them an unfair advantage that not all other anglers had access to.
Why use the other persons electronics if you don't use the waypoints?
x2
scaleface reply :
If he used someone elses waypoints , I consider that shady. Thats tournament fishing now days though. I imagine it goes on in the highest levels of the sport.
Master Bait'r reply :
The fact that there's a lie detector involved should be a red flag to you. I wouldn't enter one that put my fate in the hands of a Ouija board either fwiw.
hoosierbass07 reply :
I've never competed in a tournament before but form my view point it's clearly cheating. Cheat!
J Francho reply :
Meh, spots could have been learned in many, many other ways so I could care less. Would it have ok if they had emailed the waypoint coordinates before they knew they were going to fish the tournament? Is anyone with a secret spot privy to an unfair advantage? When I think of cheating, I think of putting big fish in a cage and using them for weigh in. Or cramming lead down a fish's throat. Or sabotaging a competitor. But spot sharing? Get over it. You got beat. Try again next time.
HoosierHawgs reply :
Because the spots were from a guide on G-Ville, yes its cheating. Had it just been from a Spro employee or another competitor, than no it wouldn't be cheating. It is only cheating because the rules state specifically: NO GUIDES. Otherwise, its not. Reason being, that sharing spots will happen. Pros do it a lot. Last year on FLW "Circuit Breaker" I believe that Clint Davis and JT Kenney were the ones being followed by the show, and they were travel partners if I remember correctly. Now they were on Kentucky Lake (or another ledge lake, can't 100% remember) but Davis knew he wasn't gonna make the cut, so he gave his spot (a secret ledge known to produce year after year known by only a few tour pros) to JT Kenney. So it happens, and in certain circumstances it is not cheating, but in this specific one I believe that it is cheating
BigSkyBasser reply :
We'd all like to assume everyone who casts a lure is honorable, unfortunately even in tournaments we find bad eggs. Last year I fished a Strike King open on lake Coeur D'Alene and the rule was to only fish with strike king baits.
Most of the boats did stick to this but I very specifically recall several of the top weights that day throwing roboworms, A Rigs, and several other quite unique baits to catch their bags. Sometimes you just have to shrug and say "oh well," or be the guy who makes noise about it and you're now potentially bolstering a reputation for being a stickler. Wish we had more larger tournys sponsored by companies like that. They offer nice checks!
jc450rr reply :
I had no idea about somebody using the electronics until the day after and it didn't affect my placing at all.SPRO sent out the email of the lie detector results showing somebody questioned why the winners used the electronics. It just seemed odd to me that a SPRO employee who is also a guide on the lake the tournament is on seemed a little shady. We had a great time and culled up numerous times but not enough to finish in the money. I won 2 duckett rods in the raffle so it was a great time. I just was curious as to other people's opinion on the situation
WRB reply :
Someone that works at Spro and has a guide service on the lake you fished a tournament loaned another contestant his sonar/GPS unit and won the tournament; is that what you are claiming?
Many tournament anglers are sponsored by tackle companies and work as guides on lakes they tournament fish at, it's common. Sharing way points happens all the time between tournament anglers that are close friends.
If your tournament had specific rules against sharing way points or guides fishing, then you have a good argument, however the TD apparently resolved that issue.
Anytime money is involved people tend to stretch rules, some cheat, that has always been a problem with fishing derbies.
Tom
Surfcaster reply :
In my tournament experience a lot of potential shady stuff goes on. I fish with my friend in his boat in local club tournaments but I'm competing against him. The tournament rules allow this because they want more people fishing the tournament. Neither one of us has won any money this year but I guarantee you when one of us does win some money there will be talk of us pooling our fish together and splitting the money. That accusation has been brought up in the past with other people. In BFL tournaments I have been involved with (Piedmont and North Carolina divisions) the top finishers and big bass winner (boater and co-angler) has to pass a lie detector test. The Piedmont Bass Classic tournaments require a lie detector test for top finishers. The GPS waypoints borrowed electronics issue is just another example trying to gain an edge that goes on in every tournament. Tournament fishermen have rockpiles and brushpiles planted at various places in the lakes around here just for tournaments and those guys are hard to beat, but sometimes I outfish them. I think there is a thread on Bass Resource about Casey Ashley planting brushpiles at Hartwell, but it was within the rules of the Tournament. Stuff like that can rub you the wrong way but it is not cheating.
Montanaro reply :
FYI I know an fbi polygrapher with decades of experience. In the right hands they are extremely accurate and I've seen it first hand.
flyfisher reply :
Polygraph examinations are par for the course as far as the rules are concerned in the tournament rules I have read. My ex father in law was a polygraph examiner for the Navy and I asked him about the accuracy and he said that they are accurate and in his 20+ years administering them for the navy, there were less than 3 that were not accurate based on other evidence.
I am sure it has been said on here already but anytime you add in money to a competition, there will be people cheating. Just look at the Cheatriots.....
Canyon explorer reply :
Get over the Way Point" assumptions. I have fished tournaments for well over twenty years and have never seen the "way point" phrase in any ones Tournament rules. I have seen "No discussion or communication" with any one regarding fishing for seven days prior to tournament and other unusual requirements. Tournament rules are written by who ever Sponsors the specific Tournament or Series e.g. the individual Clubs, Federations or Charities etc..
BassOnKlinger reply :
Random. I just pulled up this thread curious about it's contents and realized that I think I know who you're talking about. I was down on Guntersville a few weeks ago with a guide (I'm assuming the guide being discussed here).
To clarify, are you saying the winner of the tourney hired the guide to take him out while fishing said tourney? Or did the guide actually win the tourney?
As to the "cheating" accusation, I think it's all in the semantics of the rules. Does "no guides" mean no professional guides may enter the tourney? Or does it mean you can't hire one to be present with you? Or both?
Logan S reply :
frogflogger reply :
You have to abide by the tourney rules and your own ethics, others will do what they will - I've witnessed too much angst over this when I fished tournaments every week - for myself I abided by their rules and realized I had no control over other folks integrity.
Trek reply :
I have many times shared waypoints with buddies and they have shared them with me. It beats saying go off woody point till you line up with the tower in the west. That's tournament fishing. You're always going to have the ringers that fish only that lake and have hidden brush piles but your also always going to have the guys with the side finders that find them. It almost always ends up with the guy that did his homework and his fish didn't move on him that finds the win. And you always have those small groups that say they cheated or have some unfair advantage or something. I hate big tournaments with a bunch of rules. No one can enforce them and it gives some people something to complain about. I say if your going to fish tournaments then find a way to win and shut up and fish. Your other competitors will respect you for it.
scaleface reply :
Some people just are not good enough to find their own fish and catch enough to win .
senile1 reply :
The point has been made and is understood that having the waypoints of a guide doesn't mean one will win the tournament. Fish won't necessarily be in the areas marked by those waypoints.
However, intent ways heavily for me. They obviously were seeking an advantage or they wouldn't have taken the waypoints. Does that mean they cheated? By tournament definitions, no. Does it mean I respect their way of competing? No, I do not. It's like football players pretending to have been hit in the back or being tackled and then placing the ball a foot or two beyond their actual progress hoping to affect the official's spotting of the ball. No one calls it cheating but it is unethical in my book. Compete to the best of your ability and let the chips fall where they may.
scaleface reply :
On 6/3/2015 at 10:34 PM, senile1 said:The point has been made and is understood that having the waypoints of a guide doesn't mean one will win the tournament. Fish won't necessarily be in the areas marked by those waypoints.
However, intent ways heavily for me. They obviously were seeking an advantage or they wouldn't have taken the waypoints. Does that mean they cheated? By tournament definitions, no. Does it mean I respect their way of competing? No, I do not. It's like football players pretending to have been hit in the back or being tackled and then placing the ball a foot or two beyond their actual progress hoping to affect the official's spotting of the ball. No one calls it cheating but it is unethical in my book. Compete to the best of your ability and let the chips fall where they may.
I agree . We all see things in a different light . Is losing the respect of your peers worth winning. For some yes , for most no .
Master Bait'r reply :
On 6/3/2015 at 8:18 PM, Canyon explorer said:Get over the Way Point" assumptions. I have fished tournaments for well over twenty years and have never seen the "way point" phrase in any ones Tournament rules. I have seen "No discussion or communication" with any one regarding fishing for seven days prior to tournament and other unusual requirements. Tournament rules are written by who ever Sponsors the specific Tournament or Series e.g. the individual Clubs, Federations or Charities etc..
Any advantage you don't have is unfair when you're a sore loser though.
Canyon explorer reply :
weather we like it or not having a reciprocal network by lake, if allowed, is just as important as patterning and presentation if you want to be in contention. That would include local fishing reports, calls or visits to local tackle stores, and other people who have fished the lake recently.
tatertester reply :
In my mind tournament angling often pushes the limits of fair play and common courtesy.....Lie detectors and secret waypoints, gimmi a break!...Tournament anglers using aggressive tactics when prefishing, NOT!
KayakBasser reply :
Just a bit shady.
Zach P reply :
I wouldn't consider this cheating. Plenty of guys use the help of guides in order to better understand the waters they live by. Only way this would ever be considered cheating is if they pulled the fish from a cage and brought them to weigh-in.
Chris S reply :
On 6/3/2015 at 4:46 AM, J Francho said:Or sabotaging a competitor.
Does this include hiding bananas in another competitors live well?
Chris S reply :
On 6/5/2015 at 7:45 PM, Get_The_Net! said:I wouldn't consider this cheating. Plenty of guys use the help of guides in order to better understand the waters they live by. Only way this would ever be considered cheating is if they pulled the fish from a cage and brought them to weigh-in.
From what I have heard a few of the 80's and late 70's Pro's made a career off guide info on lakes.Its like having a caddy for bass fishing!
J Francho reply :
Depends on their level of superstition.
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