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Sharkbite reply :

Hey guys I have a question. I was talking to someone who read some were on the net about using the same lure or bait all the time- (artifical). The study showed that in time after catching and taking the fish out of the water any were from 1 to 10 years The fish would remember that same bait and not strike it. Or the other fish wouldn't strike that bait b/c it will be passed to them in genetics.

Is this true does any one have information on a topic like this? For me it's a hard pill to swallow. I catch bass on trick sticks none stop.

roadwarrior reply :

I have noticed that to some extent with a few hard baits. The original Floating Rapala comes to mind. It still produces fish, but when it was first introduced in the States, fishermen "rented" the lure!

On the other hand, jigs and plastic worms have been around for decades and they still produce as well today as the day they were introduced.

8-)

ventureboat reply :

This is interesting because this past Saturday I was pre fishing for a tournament and caught a nice keeper on a bomber fat a. I noticed the fish must have had a broken jaw at some point, as his mouth and right jaw were disfigured. The next day at the tournament, I caught the exact same fish on the same crank bait fishing the same point, and about the same time in the morning!!! Odd huh???

gobig reply :

I think its more the presentation then the lure. Was the lure fished with the same retrieve? Same color? Same depth? what size body of water? How much fishing pressure? ect... See what I am getting at here there are a lot of variables. I would think this would be almost impossible to track.

Sharkbite reply :

Wow I was thinking that it culdn't be true but I was wrong huh? That is great to know

fishfordollars reply :

I broke a fish off on a hook set several years ago fishing a lizzard.

Sat down retied and caught the same fish the next cast on an identical lizzard. He still had my other lizzard stuck in the corner of his mouth.

Paul Roberts reply :

Several things at work here. First, bass have been shown by research that they can and do learn to avoid lures -it's called conditioning. This has been documented in lab and pond studies, and empirically by anglers all over the country that have fished virgin waters and seen the angling decline as they continue to fish it -often quite rapidly.

Something I've seen many times (and a good fishing tactic, as well as a good test for seeing short term conditioning) is fishing through a good area with biting fish, catching until they stop biting, then going back through (quietly) with another lure. This often turns a few more fish. It's most obvious in a discrete area -like with smallies in a stream pool.

But not all individual bass are the same -some are more aggressive, some more cautious, than others. In some studies there were individual bass that were caught repeatedly, while other individuals were quickly considered "immune to angling".

There are also instances, lots of them, some mentioned above, showing individual fish being particularly susceptible to certain lures. I've seen this myself. Just what part of the presentation the bass are susceptible to is open, but some individual fish have seemed to be suckers for certain lures.

There are also lures that, I believe (from experience), that fish have a more difficult time conditioning to; Your Trick Sticks (and other plastic worms) are a good example. In this situation, careful presentations with such lures will still dupe educated fish, and this is often (a piece of) the prescription offered for duping trophy bass.

Educated fish are also often more susceptible to lure types new to them as well.

wgilfus81 reply :

Thats a tough sell for me. The way I think of it, plastic worms and such stil work after a good length of time on the market. I know natural baits are different and appeal to a different side of the fish, but nightcrawlers are still a reliable bait to this day. Its just hard for me to understand

EastTexasBassin reply :

On a pond that me and my buddies fish, it seems that some lures have been "worn out" They still catch small fish, but the larger fish have seen them so many times that they seem to remember them. Probably every bass over 4 pounds in the pond has been caught on a senko several times. Because of this, senkos only seem to produce small bass these days.

Put on something different, and the big bass (over 5 pounds) can be caught again.

On a lake, I don't see it being as much of an issue. The same bass probably haven't seen the same lure over and over.

RogerWaters reply :

Quote
Several things at work here. First, bass have been shown by research that they can and do learn to avoid lures -it's called conditioning. This has been documented in lab and pond studies, and empirically by anglers all over the country that have fished virgin waters and seen the angling decline as they continue to fish it -often quite rapidly.
Something I've seen many times (and a good fishing tactic, as well as a good test for seeing short term conditioning) is fishing through a good area with biting fish, catching until they stop biting, then going back through (quietly) with another lure. This often turns a few more fish. It's most obvious in a discrete area -like with smallies in a stream pool.

But not all individual bass are the same -some are more aggressive, some more cautious, than others. In some studies there were individual bass that were caught repeatedly, while other individuals were quickly considered "immune to angling".

There are also instances, lots of them, some mentioned above, showing individual fish being particularly susceptible to certain lures. I've seen this myself. Just what part of the presentation the bass are susceptible to is open, but some individual fish have seemed to be suckers for certain lures.

There are also lures that, I believe (from experience), that fish have a more difficult time conditioning to; Your Trick Sticks (and other plastic worms) are a good example. In this situation, careful presentations with such lures will still dupe educated fish, and this is often (a piece of) the prescription offered for duping trophy bass.

Educated fish are also often more susceptible to lure types new to them as well.

Good Post.

The next question is: Could a bass become conditioned to live bait? In other words, If a bass was caught several times on a live crayfish, would crayfish no longer be a part of his diet? Interesting........

Catt reply :

Ask yourself this question, Are bass capable of deductive reasoning?

Deductive reasoning is reasoning which uses deductive arguments to move from given statements (premises), which are assumed to be true, to conclusions, which must be true if the premises are true.

For example:

All baits contain hooks

All hooks will hurt me

Therefore all baits are not good to eat

TrailerHook reply :

The thing to remember is that bass are animals and like most wild animals they are opportunistic feeders and react on instinct first and foremost. Either they want to eat or they don't, and either they see your bait as an opportunity for a quick meal or they don't. Their instinct to feed dictates.

However I do believe as others have mentioned that bass, like most other animals, can be "conditioned" through long-term repeated exposures to certain situations. For instance if they are repeatedly caught on the same lure they may eventually learn to ignore that lure because they have learned that it isn't the easy meal it appears to be. This is a long-term learned condition....not an instant memory. I don't think a bass caught today for the first time on a senko will know to avoid one tomorrow. But over a longer period of time and after many exposures to the senko (and its hook), it may learn to avoid them at meal time.

As for passing the learned behavior down genetically, I really don't believe that can happen. Again, fish react on instinct and behavioral conditioning specific to their environment, not on pre-programmed memories passed down from generation to genteration. Think about it this way.....humans have much more evolved brain function and capacity. We are born knowing how to do certain things instictually....eat, sleep, pee, etc. We don't have to be taught these things. But we are not born automatically knowing how to read, write, drive a car, or cast a rod & reel. These are things we have to learn for ourselves. If we don't have the ability to be born with the knowledge of our ancestors, fish certainly don't.

simplejoe reply :

Well put TrailerHook

WRB reply :

Here is my spin on this question;

Don't believe everyhing you read on the internet.

The topic of conditioning; bass can be trained to aviod items that harm them, however in the wild they don't get the opportunity to make mistakes often and continue to survive.

Soft plastics look, taste, smell like real prey and it's very difficult for a bass to avoid them.

Bass pass on genes that allowed them to survive. The more aggressive bass don't survive very long making repeated mistakes, it's the more wary bass that tends to live longer, therefor passing on it's genes through several spawning cyces.

A percentage of bass you catch don't survive, even though you handled them carefully and released them. The most aggressive bass get caught more often and their chances of survival is low. Not many aggressive bass live to grow up to be big bass, where fishing pressure is moderate to high.

Bass can't learn or be conditioned to aviod live bait, they must eat to survive. Bass can learn to aviod boats, line, hooks, noise, shaddows, odors and people fishing with live bait or lures, that alarm them.

WRB

senile1 reply :

I debate this idea in my own head but I've never reached a definite conclusion. It is a fact that bass do not perform deductive reasoning. The question is, "Are they susceptible to classical conditioning?" (Pavlov's dog)

I tend to think they are. I think they learn to associate danger with certain objects. Classical conditioning is a learned response to a stimulus. Whereas you or I can touch a hot stove, and we can deduce why we were hurt, a bass would learn that they experience pain when they touch an object. They don't know why and don't care. They just learn to associate it with pain or fear, etc. If they didn't have this ability how would they learn to hide from predators?

Paul Roberts reply :

WRB brings up a related point: That selective pressures (angling) can remove aggressive fish from populations. This is most intense when it's catch and kill fishing. C&R still has an impact, by aggressive individuals eventually being killed or damaged in repeated capture.

There's a good study on this highlighted on a great site run by Brian Waldman:

http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/research/index.html

Scroll down to: Pressure and Bass Aggressiveness

But, although related in that it explains degraded fishing success over time, it's not the whole story, nor the question at hand: Whether bass can learn to avoid lures. They can. There are numerous examples but I'll offer this one: Keith Jones, Director of fish research at Berkley says that, in his tank experiments with lures on bass, he has to use a new group of bass for each test, because they learn so fast and stop biting. The question is; What is it they are reacting to? What part did they learn to avoid?

Which brings up RogerWaters neat question:

Quote
The next question is: Could a bass become conditioned to live bait? In other words, If a bass was caught several times on a live crayfish, would crayfish no longer be a part of his diet? Interesting........

My thoughts, not research backed, is two-fold: That no bass will have enough bad experiences with crayfish to stop eating them altogether after being caught on them; They'll likely eat 100 or more successfully for every 1 they get caught by.

But beyond that, and what both gobig and WRB brought up, is that you can't separate the lure from the presentation complete: The

Quote
boats, line, hooks, noise, shaddows, odors and people fishing with live bait or lures, that alarm them.

One of the best examples of this I've seen was a time I fished live nymphs on 2lb line to stream brookies on a public fishing stream. Now, I've been a dedicated, scholarly trout fly-fisher for years. I know my bugs and am a meticulous fly designer. It's amazing what people can come up with in terms of ultra-realistic flies. What I had driven home forcefully by those little brookies was that the fly, no matter how accurate an imitation, cannot be separated from the rest of the presentation.

What trout expect is for live insects to drift downstream with the current. The resulting image is FOOD. The response is, GULP! When I fished a live stonefly nymph down to those trout, the legs kicked, the body wriggled, the pale belly flashed; I couldn't have tied a better fly. But, if I didn't present correctly, if an errant current caught hold the line causing the slightest drag, the trout would reject the nymph. And interestingly, it wasn't that they spooked, they simply let it pass, like any piece of non-food like a pine needle, grass blade, or leaf bit. But, get it right and they eat the nymph, or a reasonable synthetic facsimile. The point is: The lure cannot be separated form the rest of the presentation elements, unless you are able to make it so.

Interestingly, if you ***** one of those trout with a hook, they'll sulk for a while, and can be more difficult to dupe afterwards. Contrast this with trout that have never seen an angler (high mountain streams here in Colorado) where I can be somewhat sloppier in my line control, and can literally ***** a trout 3 or 4 times before it's put off to a good presentation. Now head to a heavily fished C&R tailwater fishery and holy moly those are difficult fish to fool.

The take-home message is, the lure, no matter how accurate an imitation, cannot be separated from the rest of the presentation. And that individual fish do learn.

The saving grace is that conditions for bass vision are not always perfect and that aggressively feeding bass (especially in competition) are more willing to believe, for lack of better. But after being caught a number of times (or even once, according to some studies), bass become more circumspect.

So...How long can bass remember?

In one nifty study a group of bass were introduced to a Rapala minnow plug. They struck it readily for several minutes, then strikes fell off. The bass were divided into groups and tested after different time intervals, and the bass showed that they remembered something negative about the lure (indicated by greatly diminished hits) for as long as the study went for 3 months!

But, in our fishing, we have a certain amount of latitude in control in our presentations (within, of course, the considerable confines of having the lure attached to a d**n cord!). This is what presentation really is; It's attraction, then triggering. If you know how to control and adjust these, you may be able to continue to dupe fish on a given old lure. Presentation, all aspects of it, is in large part what separates the really good angler's from the average ones.

From my trout fly-fishing experiences, I'll offer an adjustment to the old adage, Presentation is 90% of catching, to this: After you've got presentation down, lures that fit the expectations of the fish, the one's that say FOOD! the best at that moment, will turn the most heads. From my bass fishing experiences, where food imitation is more difficult (because of the combination of still-water and the size of prey and lures), that triggering (how you manipulate any given lure) is critical to the amount of success you receive with any lure. And this factor increases in importance enormously as bass become educated.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
I think they learn to associate danger with certain objects. Classical conditioning is a learned response to a stimulus. Whereas you or I can touch a hot stove, and we can deduce why we were hurt, a bass would learn that they experience pain when they touch an object. They don't know why and don't care. They just learn to associate it with pain or fear, etc. If they didn't have this ability how would they learn to hide from predators?

senile, very lucid thinking. 8-) Maybe they'll let you out of the memory ward yet! ;D

Sharkbite reply :

So this mostly will apply to hard baits. Since most plastics and swim baitshave naturel movement rite? The bass will remember the movement of a crank, top water, spinning and buzz. So if I used one spinner that was productive then stopped I should change color or add a trailer?

senile1 reply :

Quote

Quote
I think they learn to associate danger with certain objects. Classical conditioning is a learned response to a stimulus. Whereas you or I can touch a hot stove, and we can deduce why we were hurt, a bass would learn that they experience pain when they touch an object. They don't know why and don't care. They just learn to associate it with pain or fear, etc. If they didn't have this ability how would they learn to hide from predators?

senile, very lucid thinking. 8-) Maybe they'll let you out of the memory ward yet! ;D

No, Paul, they'll never let me out of the institution, but I still like to think that lucidity is achievable.

WRB reply :

In regards to plastic worms and jig on some locals, the vast majority of the bass fisherman fish the same basic colors with the same presentation along the same banks, then wonder why they can't catch more and lager bass then the other fisherman.

Bass may have the brain the size of a pea, but after seeing green pumpkin with red flake most of the lives, even the most aggresive bass will associate green pumpkin red flake worms as being something to aviod. Jigs that are black with blue claws is about the same in popularity. How many aggressive bass can be in any lake that hasn't already caught or watched another bass get caught on those 2 lures? The banks have been paved with the same lures and anglers still fish them regularly. Amazing, just amazing!

When a school or group or pack or bunch, whatever you think more than 1 bass is called, gets hooked, the other bass nearby can see, feel and smell, that one of their kind is acting differently. If the bass are in a negative or less active mood, the hooked bass activity can alarm them and send the bunch into hiding. On the other hand, an active feeding bunch of bass will take little notice or even become more aggressive in order to get to the feeding bass quickly to take advantage of a meal.

Do you change lure colors or lures when you catch 1 bass, no! keep fishing and let the bass determine if they want more of the same. If not, then try something that is different. If you are catching an occasional bass, then make a small change; like the color of the same lure to determine if that improves your strike ratio.

If you insist on fishing the popular flavor and lure of the day, then be prepared to compete with other anglers for the same bass.

I have been tinkering around making my own lures and modifing others to improve my strike ratio for about 50 years. The fact that I can still catch big bass on the same lures for decades should indicate the bass haven't learned to avoid them, because they don't see same lure often enough to be conditioned to avoid them.

My advice; tinker with your lures, try fishing new lures & colors and areas that have less traffic.

WRB

SimonSays reply :

Just a quick chime in from a Bio major...like many have said before conditioning to a lure is very real. If a fish gets hooked up on something that rattles they probably won't bite that lure again for a while.

From the genetics stand point, if a fish avoids a certain lure that avoidance will not transfer to their offspring. For an example giraffes didn't get longer necks because they kept stretching them out after each generation. They got progressively longer necks because giraffes without the long neck advantage eventually died off. Natural selection. For fish this could mean that cautious fish who don't hit baits readily (either from reaction strikes or finessing) would have a genetic advantage, while fish who strike reactively and are caught (not released) aren't able to pass on their genetic disposition to strike out of instinct leading to fish who are much more picky about their food!

Darth Bass reply :

Quote
This is interesting because this past Saturday I was pre fishing for a tournament and caught a nice keeper on a bomber fat a. I noticed the fish must have had a broken jaw at some point, as his mouth and right jaw were disfigured. The next day at the tournament, I caught the exact same fish on the same crank bait fishing the same point, and about the same time in the morning!!! Odd huh???

Maybe it was a "RETARD" bass???

Darth Bass reply :

What comes to mind... I've being really frustrated, from really backlash (in both braided -Spiderwire- and fluorocarbon -Berkley VANISH 17#, clear and red-), to not catching any bass bigger than 13", if not ANY BASS AT ALL! I haven't caught any bass bigger than 12" in my entire life. >

All this past two or three weeks, I've being shore-fishing, and the only way around when you live or work in a military istallation (Fort Benning) and don't have a boat of any kind. I went to a pond in Benning that's called KINGS POND, about 7 acres of water or more, but I am getting to the conclusion that on RESERVED WATERS (namely military installations), the fish are getting SMARTER than you think. Last week, I had the best opportunities of my life. Had in my sight literally, about 5 LMB, and about two of good keeper size. They were close to shore near a bridge (maybe spawning???), but I threw literally everything in front of their faces, even the smallest lures....but no bites at all. The closest I got to catch them were a couple of lures I have mimicking tiny shad in different colors, about an inch in size as the biggest one, using light tackle....and still no bites.

Only exception I got within the past week, I caught one crappie (really small to keep, though) and three catfish, one of a keeper size, and two release (with one eye each, i believe, just to note) due to small size, but also the hook got into their either side eye, that either survived or eye got busted due to the size of the lure or the size of the bite. Besides, I was fishing in a pond of about an acre sized, that then I was told it was a fishing pond for KIDS. ;D

Because of enclosed waters (military bases), which I assume that based on the percentage of people that goes fishing throughout the years......do you think that fish are getting SMART, and already expecting (perhaps already know what it is) what to be thrown to them???

I seem to invest in every NEW item (or "sucessfully proven" item") they show on TV you could imagine.....and still I haven't caught a (nice-sized fish)....except for an item called the RED RIPPER, which is a spoon, golden color with a tail; threw it away, and on the very first cast and I cought one about 12" LMB, about year and a half ago.

What do you think? Do you think they are getting smarter if in enclosed waters?

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
This is interesting because this past Saturday I was pre fishing for a tournament and caught a nice keeper on a bomber fat a. I noticed the fish must have had a broken jaw at some point, as his mouth and right jaw were disfigured. The next day at the tournament, I caught the exact same fish on the same crank bait fishing the same point, and about the same time in the morning!!! Odd huh???

Not odd at all. This was likely an aggressive fish (a "retard" in natural selection terms if there are many anglers about) or one with a penchant for crankbaits. This is not that uncommon.

I knew a good sized pike that lived in a quarry I fished a number of years back. It loved small crankbaits. I rose the fish many times on various larger "pike lures" (spinners, spoons, plugs) but only eliciting follows. But I caught her four times in three years (her growing from 28 to 30 inches in that time) twice on a small 2" Big-O in crawfish, once on a Shad-Rap, and again on a larger 2-1/2" Big-O in a dark bluegill finish.

That same quarry had a big largemouth (21-1/2") that would hit big crankbaits. I caught her twice on a Swim-Whizz and a friend took her the following year (now 22") on a 3+" Big-O. We never caught her on anything else.

I now have a big female I raise or catch every now and then at the same location in a pond I fish often. She is always vulnerable to a Mepps #3. It seems she just has to come take a swipe at that lure! Sometimes she engulfs it, other times she strikes short. I caught her on back to back evenings once -the second night I got her to chase and then to commit by zig-zagging the spinner in front of her -she couldn't stand that.

Interestingly, a nasty slippery swimming jig (killer) she doesn't seem to care to chase. I did catch her on one once by dead-sticking it on one of the rare opportunities I got to sight fish to her. And I could probably get her to take a dead jig at other times, but the Mepps she's willing to chase, so I'll play that card as long as she's game.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
I seem to invest in every NEW item (or "sucessfully proven" item") they show on TV you could imagine.....and still I haven't caught a (nice-sized fish).

That should tell you a lot right there. Lures don't catch fish by themselves. It's what you do with them that catches fish. that might just be the take-home message for this whole thread.

I'd do some reading on presentation -there's lots here in the articles section. Learn how to fish just a few lures well -your choice, but I'd suggest: a plastic worm, a jig, a spinnerbait, and a topwater.

George Welcome reply :

Bass have to become conditioned to baits, otherwise how would the bait companies sell that new and exciting bait.

Catt reply :

If a bass had any type of intelligence none of us here would ever catch a single one. But they are not capable of a single thought and that is why they can be caught not just once but numerous times throughout their life.

Keith Jones, Director of fish research at Berkley does his research on bass in an aquarium or tank and the results aren't worth the paper it's written on. His theories have been shot so full of holes it's become almost comical, he's paid to sell a product period. In one of he's reports stated bass are turned off by anise oil and will not bite a single lure that contains anise. Yet every year hundreds of thousands of bass fall pray to lures laced with anise oil so I guess the bass never read Mr. Jones's reports.

Paul Roberts reply :

Quote
So this mostly will apply to hard baits. Since most plastics and swim baitshave naturel movement rite? The bass will remember the movement of a crank, top water, spinning and buzz. So if I used one spinner that was productive then stopped I should change color or add a trailer?

It applies to all baits, but probably less so to soft plastics. But, the main part, in terms of catching fish, is that all the elements of angling enter in.

The problem is angling in general. You just have to fish "better" than if the pond hadn't been fished before. Meaning:

#1 Be stealthy

#2 Learn to present each lure very well. Learn to adjust (vary) your retrieves to trigger strikes.

#3 Pay attention to what others are using and either use them better or, if it doesn't pan out, try something very different. BUT before you write off any lure (often people choose them for a good reason) know the conditions and situations where that lure shines and it'll likely still work for you (see #2).

#4 Changing lures, after catching a few in a particular spot, is a good tactic.

Glenn reply :

What was the question again? I forgot.

Paul Roberts reply :

It's in the subject title.

Great question.

Sharkbite, did you feel your questions were answered?

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