Crankbait lip question 2024
bigtimfish reply :
Ok, I fish the DD22 and the Bandit 700. It was my understanding that it was the length of the lip that gets it deeper. But the lips on my DD22's are longer than that of the Bandits. They are both in the 14' to 18' diving range. Is it because of the head slope on the Bandit? Does that pretty much make it a continuation of the lip?http://www.***.com/descpageHDCNORMAN-DD22S.htmle http://www.***.com/descpageBANDCR-BSS.html
ptomacbass reply :
It also has to do with lip width.
Raul reply :
Length of the bill
Placement of the eye in the bill
Shape of the bill
Angle of the bill
carrothead reply :
Am I the only one who thinks the bandit 700s look really stupid? They may work, but I am not convinced to buy one.
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteLength of the billPlacement of the eye in the bill
Shape of the bill
Angle of the bill
Ditto.
But, I have wondered about the scooped head shape too.
I'm also wondering what strategically placed and angled canards would do. 
tnbassfisher reply :
Personally, I feel that angle of the bill is the next biggest factor in diving depth next to the length of the bill.
central_fl_fishin reply :
It's angle + cranking speed. Sharper angle = deeper at the same cranking speed as shallow angle. Increase the speed and sharper angle dives deeper. If you go slow any angle will go shallower.
BIG M reply :
You also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth. The slimmer the bait the deeper it will run. A lip that has some cup to it helps to get a bait deep. A thinner lip will get a bait deeper.
The slop head on the Bandit is acting like a lip extension.
tnbassfisher reply :
What about square vs. round shaped bills?
Grey Wolf reply :
QuoteWhat about square vs. round shaped bills?
Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?
Stringjam reply :
QuoteQuoteWhat about square vs. round shaped bills?Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?
Sisson P-20
Big M knows what it takes to get em deep. I have some cranks from Marty that get around the 25' range.
My experience -- the straighter the lip angle, the steeper it dives. The overall surface area of the lip, line tie location, and also the ACTION effect the diving depth.
Matt Fly reply :
QuoteYou also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth.
What baits sold on the market advertise this weight as to increase depth?
That weight is counter balance, it helps load the bait during the casting for distance, not depth.
I'm sure if you add enough weight to anything it will sink, and thats max depth for sure.
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteQuoteWhat about square vs. round shaped bills?Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?
Got one too -Bomber Dance Fat Free Shad Deep -older version perhaps.
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteQuoteYou also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth.What baits sold on the market advertise this weight as to increase depth?
That weight is counter balance, it helps load the bait during the casting for distance, not depth.
I'm sure if you add enough weight to anything it will sink, and thats max depth for sure.
Dunno really, but it appears density would weigh in. Despite lip angle, really buoyant balsa doesn't run as deep as denser plastics -at least for the same amount of speed. Plus, most really deep divers weigh a lot more than shallows -partly for casting distance, but maybe for density too?
BIG M reply :
It's where the weight is placed that is the key to helping the bait get down to max depth. Look at some of the older deep divers, Bagley's had a chunk of lead in the bill. That was to give the bait the proper nose down attitude to reach it's max depth. It doesn't matter what the manufacture advertises, look at what the changes made by the pro's to their cranks to get them deeper. 1 thing is chest weighting to make the bait stand up on it's nose.
I can make a chunk of balsa run deeper than any bait on the market today. This is based on three things, weight placement, body design, and lip length. I mainly use cedar for deep divers because I don't have to add as much balast weight due to the higher density of the wood.
Matt Fly reply :
Lets look at commercially available baits on the market.
Not modified baits that pros or their reps do for them.
Whats available to us is what should be discussed.
Balsa wasn't used for max depth, Balsa deflects better off of objects, wood to be exact.
What baits are advertised that have the ball bearing inside that are used for depth?
If its a feature, it'll be marketed as such.
Lead bills are not the same as weight inside the bait is it?
Muddy reply :
Hey Matt: some good points. I was looking at custom baits, nice paints, but really that is about all that separates them from quality Bagels and such.There are some incredible paint jobs, real artistic and realistic stuff. But in the end it's the action for me, and I found some Bagleys that rock!
Now Matt: if I want to throw a wood crank, other than balsa, what would you throw to get it down into 15 ft of water.
Paul Roberts reply :
Good stuff here.
BIG M reply :
The point was to show there are a lot of factors that make a deep running crank reach max depth. I've never seen a commerical bait advertise that it's chest weighted. Still does not change the fact that weighting has an effect on diving depth, as well as lip length, width, line tie position and body style. You have to have all the parts to make a deep diver reach it's max depth.
Muddy reply :
or something I am going to go out and learn next week with a friend who does this.
Do it the other way around: use a balsa crank and C rig it, gonna give it a shot.
Siebert Outdoors reply :
QuoteLead bills are not the same as weight inside the bait is it?
No, not the same. What its doing is having the bill/bait sit at a steeper angle down to get the bait moving down deeper faster. There are a few co's out that do this. I think Bandit has a series with a bb or something in the bill for this. The ballast weight can control depth by moving it in the lure by changing the angle the bait sits in the water. This alters the angle the bill/bait will run. It also gets the bait to sit up correctly. You have to figure in buoyancy. More buoyant the bait the shallower it will go. Simple resistance. Same with line diameter.
here are alot of the factors that lead to depth.
Body shape
length of bill
angle of bill(one of the biggest)
shape of bill
Density/weight of lure
buoyancy
line diameter
line tie
These have to be in the right coorilation to one another to achieve maximum depth and action.
Paul Roberts reply :
I have some Rebel Deep Wee-R's, and I also have some Rebel Xtra-Deep Wee-R's -the difference being a bearing molded into the plastic lip out beyond the line tie.
Matt Fly reply :
QuoteLength of the billPlacement of the eye in the bill
Shape of the bill
Angle of the bill
This is about as simple as it gets when a bait comes out of the box.
The factors not mentioned in getting a bait to max depth straight out of the box.
Line diameter(size)
casting distance
Rod position during retrieve
All important factors on getting a baits to max running depth.
Muddy reply :
QuoteQuoteLength of the billPlacement of the eye in the bill
Shape of the bill
Angle of the bill
This is about as simple as it gets when a bait comes out of the box.
The factors not mentioned in getting a bait to max depth straight out of the box.
Line diameter(size)
casting distance
Rod position during retrieve
All important factors on getting a baits to max running depth.
SON OF A %^#!#!!!!!!!! You mean you are supposed to take them out of the box:: NO WONDER I HAVE BEEN HAVING PROBLEMS!!!!!!!
BIG M reply :
Matt, ok maybe I went to far toward the custom side with the weighting and weight placement. Can't help it, that's what I do.
The reason the Bandit is rated for the same depth as a DD22 is the flat head, acts like a longer lip on that bait. Sorry for all the confusion that I caused in this thread.
Muddy reply :
And you do it in a great way. No confusion, good to see ideas coming from all angles. We all fish from different perspectives, the more in the mix the better!
Matt Fly reply :
a bait advertised depth means jack until I test them.
Vast% of the deep baits don't dive as deep as mentioned unless you downsize your line greatly.
A couple of guys tested all lures on the market. They found 2 that dives as deep as advertised.
They have charts out on dive depths.
Stringjam reply :
QuoteLets look at commercially available baits on the market.
Nothing discussed so far isn't available to anybody that wants it.
Big M's baits are commercially available.
QuoteWhats available to us is what should be discussed.
Is this your own personal thread now? ;D
QuoteBalsa wasn't used for max depth, Balsa deflects better off of objects, wood to be exact.
Somebody forgot to tell Rapala......I can get a DT-16 almost 18' deep. I have a couple other balsa cranks that get into the low-mid 20's.
My old lead-lip Bagley DB3's are awesome deep divers that work into the mid-teens.
Materials are a means to an end, not a defining factor.
Deep crank design is an art.......as is deep cranking itself.
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteBalsa wasn't used for max depth, Balsa deflects better off of objects, wood to be exact.
Somebody forgot to tell Rapala......I can get a DT-16 almost 18' deep. I have a couple other balsa cranks that get into the low-mid 20's.
I believe Rapala's claim on the DTs is the rapid descent, which I believe has to do with it's nose down starting position, as Big M mentioned, and the sharp edged lip -thus the use of micarta and chip boards.
Not so sure Raul's list is all there is to it.
I'm still wondering about canards -Big M??
Muddy reply :
Canards?????--some type of French Dessert? ;D
Matt Fly reply :
What stores do I buy these M's at. Walmart, Academy, BassPro?
Never seen them out in town.
Stringjam reply :
QuoteWhat stores do I buy these M's at. Walmart, Academy, BassPro?Never seen them out in town.
"Big M" makes them.....a pm is all ya need. 
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteCanards?????--some type of French Dessert? ;D
Can-nards: The innards of a can.
And they are NOT fancy, readily available: Dinty Moore, Progresso, Campbell's, ...
Seriously...Canards are small wings used (as far as I know) on submarines and jet fighters. I guess they act as stabilizers too, which I suppose is not what you'd want on a crankbait. They would add diving plane area, but probably not allow much wiggle. Unless Big M gets busy and get's creative with 'em. Who knows? A 2" plug that can achieve 30feet on 17# and a 30 foot cast?!
BIG M reply :
Paul, thanks for the definition of canards. Not real sure how my name got mixed in with that but I bet somebody has tired to use them on a crankbait.
Matt, no you will not find my baits in any store or on a web site. So I guess that means I don't know crap about what makes a good crankbait. Not real sure how this turned into a trash Big M session.
Guess that means it's time for me to go.
Muddy reply :
QuoteQuoteCanards?????--some type of French Dessert? ;DCan-nards: The innards of a can.
And they are NOT fancy, readily available: Dinty Moore, Progresso, Campbell's, ...
Seriously...Canards are small wings used (as far as I know) on submarines and jet fighters. I guess they act as stabilizers too, which I suppose is not what you'd want on a crankbait. They would add diving plane area, but probably not allow much wiggle. Unless Big M gets busy and get's creative with 'em. Who knows? A 2" plug that can achieve 30feet on 17# and a 30 foot cast?!
Like those little wings on the old Timber Cranks?
Matt Fly reply :
Big M, never knew of you or your product. NOthing I posted was in reguards to you or your products or your knowledge. I guess you make cranks. Sorry. Just realizing this on Sat. morning. LOL
LOL somebody needs to quit trolling product plugs on simple ask questions. Again, not at you M, but the guy who mentioned your baits, thus I asked where? since I have never heard of them before.
Hookem
Stringjam reply :
QuoteWhat stores do I buy these M's at.
Interesting - - I answer YOUR question and you label my response "product trolling."
Anybody with the reading comprehension level of a first grader can figure out who's really trolling in this thread.
Moderating is best left to moderators.
Grey Wolf reply :
Great thread until the thin skins took over.
Paul Roberts reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteCanards?????--some type of French Dessert? ;DCan-nards: The innards of a can.
And they are NOT fancy, readily available: Dinty Moore, Progresso, Campbell's, ...
Seriously...Canards are small wings used (as far as I know) on submarines and jet fighters. I guess they act as stabilizers too, which I suppose is not what you'd want on a crankbait. They would add diving plane area, but probably not allow much wiggle. Unless Big M gets busy and get's creative with 'em. Who knows? A 2" plug that can achieve 30feet on 17# and a 30 foot cast?!
Like those little wings on the old Timber Cranks?
That's them! Leave it to Tom Seward. Creative guy he is.
Don't want to stir any pots here but I didn't see any reason NOT to include custom designs in this thread. The quick descent design used on Rapala DT's were brought into mass production through David Fritts.
Anyway...interesting thread.
Stringjam reply :
QuoteThat's them! Leave it to Tom Seward. Creative guy he is.
Don't want to stir any pots here but I didn't see any reason NOT to include custom designs in this thread. The quick descent design used on Rapala DT's were brought into mass production through David Fritts.
Anyway...interesting thread.
Tom is such a good designer.....anybody who can create such killer cranks with the kind of price-point restrictions that Luhr-Jensen puts on them is talented. The Speed-Trap is one of the best cranks out there at ANY price.
I think rapid descent might go even further back. The original Bagley DB3's (introduced in the 70's, I believe) have a pretty darn sharp dive angle. I would assume the almost straight lip angle (a weighted lip, as well) was one of the biggest factors.
I know it isn't the first diving bait, but even after all these years, it still performs amazingly well compared to modern deep cranks.
Paul Roberts reply :
Yeah, I guess if you look designs go back further than most us us do lol.
I'm an archer, and I make my own bows from scratch. Designs gets really complicated (stickbows, not even including wheeled bows), and interestingly a bow was pulled, well preserved, from a marsh in Oregon that was dated at 9000 years! It was a reflex-deflex design with flat limbs! People have been taking tool design to the nth degree for a very long time. 8-)
Matt Fly reply :
QuoteQuoteWhat stores do I buy these M's at.Interesting - - I answer YOUR question and you label my response "product trolling."
Anybody with the reading comprehension level of a first grader can figure out who's really trolling in this thread.
Moderating is best left to moderators.
LOL Uncalled for in my book.
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