Future's In Your Hands ~ 2024
A-Jay reply :
A-Jay
MichaelCopeland reply :
Not sure we have smallmouth bass around here with the exception of maybe Toledo Bend and possibly Caddo Lake because they border with Texas. However, I always catch and release largemouth bass. ????
Bluebasser86 reply :
Most all our lakes they have to be over 18 or even 21 inches to keep. I think they probably grow a little faster than that chart here, but probably not by much. I doubt many folks realize how long it takes for a fish just to reach keeper size, largemouth, spot, or smallmouth.
drscholl14 reply :
Largemouth and smallmouth take that long up here in the north. That's why our state record largemouth is only 8 lbs and change.
TOXIC reply :
Conservation is a multifaceted plan that includes catch and release, habitat, and harvest. They all work together to make a healthy productive fishery. Any one of them can upset the balance dramatically.
Oregon Native reply :
People have asked me how I like to eat bass....I say they're "Sacred" and they look at me real funny. Just not to much into the taste of most fresh water fish. Love Gorton's Fishsticks though....cold and in the lunch box of the boat. I know they're times for harvest....just not for me
68camaro reply :
On 1/31/2018 at 10:14 AM, A-Jay said:
A-Jay
A-Jay, thanks for posting, attitudes about fishing have changed since I was young. I think most fisherman are sportsman and want to preserve our sport and be good be stewards of the fisheries.
A really good book that details the difficulties and traits of large bass is "In Pursuit of Giant Bass". In it the author makes the case that bass that grow to trophy size are different in habits and personality that most other bass. For bass its a eat or be eaten world and to survive years takes special talents not seen in the majority.
I don't eat bass but when we flyfish, we harvest one each for dinner that night and release rest. Whether it be bass, trout, pickerel or pan fish I always try to return quickly and carefully. A floating fish is a very sad sight.
N Florida Mike reply :
I can't speak about smallmouth , but I have gone full circle and back a quarter on largemouth. When I was starting to bass fish , most people kept most of the fish most of the time. It was a prevailing attitude down here from our depression era fathers and the condition of much of the South before that. We fished to feed our families and still do. Attitudes changed slowly regarding bass and much of my change toward it occurred by watching BASS members practicing c/r. My dad couldn't believe people would fish and throw them all back. He would always say "You could feed a starving family with all those fish " So it was hard for me to throw em back too.
So I adapted by catching and keeping lots of other fish , which we have plenty of around here. I got to where I released nearly all bass unless they died on me.
Then the lake got too full of little fish and I realized culling some was the best solution , so I starting keeping fish in a slot of 12 - 16 inches .Kept 150 last year. I give most of them to a friend and filet maybe 1/4 for the family. Every fish over 16 goes back.
Sorry for the long post. I believe you need to obey the law and do your part to conserve the fishery . That being said , keeping some doesn't hurt most fisheries. Balance is the key.
A-Jay reply :
On 1/31/2018 at 8:43 PM, N Florida Mike said:
I believe you need to obey the law and do your part to conserve the fishery . That being said , keeping some doesn't hurt most fisheries. Balance is the key.
I agree whole heatedly with this sentiment Mike.
A-Jay
Glenn reply :
The growth rates listed are misleading, but I think it's designed to spark conversation. To that end, mission accomplished.
Those values are higher than only 10% of the fish across their range (i.e., slow growth). The average growth rates for smallmouth bass are much faster: https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/fish-biology.html
TnRiver46 reply :
I'm 73 inches at 33 yrs........I also consider bass sacred like @Oregon Native but I consider killing and eating animals sacred as well. It takes a whole village I reckon! I don't eat small mouth often but if I'm standing on the deck of the boat holding one and my girlfriend isn't cooking dinner that night, the economically sound decision is to eat the fish in your hand instead of throwing it back only to go buy a fish from china. At least for a po boy like me
MickD reply :
A-Jay, are you aware we have an idiot here in MI who has in the past advocated, and probably will again, for tournaments on the spawning beds? Catch and immediate release is not as benign as most think, as a significant number of fish die, but to do a tournament that removes fish from the beds is suicide for the beds' young bass. If you are not aware, and would like more info, PM me. My son testified before the DNR when the last proposal was made, and he and others prevailed in getting the proposal denied. But it will come up again.
A-Jay reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 6:39 AM, MickD said:tournaments on the spawning beds DNR made proposal denied.
Although I could never see the DNR ever approving that in any way, shape or form - Ever;
My fighting days are behind me.
My Life's course is locked in and heading for the calmest waters available.
A-Jay
slonezp reply :
@A-Jay While I respect your opinion, and personally don't harvest SMB, we need to respect the people who do so as long as it's within their states guidelines.
@MickD Beds are targeted during the spring nationwide, be it smallmouth or largemouth. Fisheries continue to flourish. I'm no scientist, but I believe there are other influences that are more detrimental to fisheries than tournament fishermen targeting spawning beds. Here's what I do know. Tournament anglers prefishing for tournament do not disturb the beds until tournament day, they just mark waypoints on the gps. An angler can spend an hour on a bed and not catch anything or more than likely catch the male. If the female is caught and released successfully during a tournament, and she hasn't spawned yet, she will find a suitor and spawn at a later date. Panfish (and in the case of the Great Lakes, gobies) will rush beds for eggs, but they are not necessarily attacking every single bass bed in the fishery. The vast majority of eggs that do survive the spawn will hatch and be eaten as fingerlings anyway.
I'm not dismissing the fact that bed fishing has some impact on spawning bass. I do believe that the impact mother nature has with weather patterns, water levels, and erosion, as well as herbicides and pesticides have a more detrimental effect on the bass populations than bed fishing does.
A-Jay reply :
@slonezp - To repeat what I mentioned above - I believe we need to obey the law and do our part to conserve the fishery . That being said , keeping some doesn't hurt most fisheries. Balance is the key.
A-Jay
slonezp reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:32 AM, A-Jay said:@slonezp - To repeat what I mentioned above - I believe we need to obey the law and do our part to conserve the fishery . That being said , keeping some doesn't hurt most fisheries. Balance is the key.
A-Jay
You mean what @N Florida Mike said.
A-Jay reply :
I am really looking forward to ice out.
A-Jay
slonezp reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:47 AM, A-Jay said:I am really looking forward to ice out.
A-Jay
Just playin' with ya
A-Jay reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:53 AM, slonezp said:Just playin' with ya
I know - no worries.
Still though . . . . Glad to finally see January in the rear view mirror . . .
( and I kind a like jacking up my own thread )
A-Jay
soflabasser reply :
Good subject and I agree that its a good idea to release most if not all smallmouth bass, especially the state citation sized ones. I have released every single smallmouth bass I have caught and will continue to release every smallmouth bass I catch on my vacations.
slonezp reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:58 AM, A-Jay said:I know - no worries.
Still though . . . . Glad to finally see January in the rear view mirror . . .
( and I kind a like jacking up my own thread )
A-Jay
I don't know about that. We have more cold and snow forecasted over the next week. Looks like somewhere between 5-10" by next Wednesday and I think I saw below zero windchills again.
A-Jay reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 10:06 AM, slonezp said:I don't know about that. We have more cold and snow forecasted over the next week. Looks like somewhere between 5-10" by next Wednesday and I think I saw below zero windchills again.
Yea - our forecast also has a certain not-helping speed up the ice out kind of feel to it as well.
Predictably Arctic to be more precise.
Dogs like it ~
A-Jay
TnRiver46 reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 10:13 AM, A-Jay said:Yea - our forecast also has a certain not-helping speed up the ice out kind of feel to it as well.
Predictably Arctic to be more precise.
Dogs like it ~
A-Jay
That's an awesome photo. I bet a rodent died moments later
A-Jay reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 10:19 AM, TnRiver46 said:That's an awesome photo. I bet a rodent died moments later
Bugs Bunny ~
A-Jay
MickD reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:25 AM, slonezp said:@A-Jay While I respect your opinion, and personally don't harvest SMB, we need to respect the people who do so as long as it's within their states guidelines.
@MickD Beds are targeted during the spring nationwide, be it smallmouth or largemouth. Fisheries continue to flourish. I'm no scientist, but I believe there are other influences that are more detrimental to fisheries than tournament fishermen targeting spawning beds. Here's what I do know. Tournament anglers prefishing for tournament do not disturb the beds until tournament day, they just mark waypoints on the gps. An angler can spend an hour on a bed and not catch anything or more than likely catch the male. If the female is caught and released successfully during a tournament, and she hasn't spawned yet, she will find a suitor and spawn at a later date. Panfish (and in the case of the Great Lakes, gobies) will rush beds for eggs, but they are not necessarily attacking every single bass bed in the fishery. The vast majority of eggs that do survive the spawn will hatch and be eaten as fingerlings anyway.
I'm not dismissing the fact that bed fishing has some impact on spawning bass. I do believe that the impact mother nature has with weather patterns, water levels, and erosion, as well as herbicides and pesticides have a more detrimental effect on the bass populations than bed fishing does.
The SCIENTISTS from I believe three states who testified in the MI DNR hearings regarding THE PROPOSAL TO ALLOW TOURNAMENTS WHICH WOULD TAKE SMALLMOUTH BASS OFF THE BEDS TO BE WEIGHED AT A LATER TIME were unanimous in the position that this would be disastrous to the population, providing scientific studies to support their arguments. With respect for your opinion, the other factors you mention have not caused the "disastrous" decline in the smallmouth population that the scientists were predicting if tournaments were allowed while the bass were on the beds and the taking of bass to remote weighing was done. My opinion is that the proposal was so ridiculous that it could have been denied based on common sense.
J Francho reply :
There is a special, early trophy season on Erie in Buffalo, NY that allows two fish to be kept for weigh in. It coincides with pre-spawn and spawn. Hasn't devastated the fishery there.
MickD reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 10:11 PM, J Francho said:There is a special, early trophy season on Erie in Buffalo, NY that allows two fish to be kept for weigh in. It coincides with pre-spawn and spawn. Hasn't devastated the fishery there.
I'll defer to the experts who were commenting on allowing TOURNAMENTS, not individual anglers. Tournaments have large numbers of expert anglers who are allowed to keep 5 fish, which with culling could involve displacing a great number of fish.
TnRiver46 reply :
Every situation is different but here is one case study: on the Tennessee River (the part in east Tennessee anyway) you can keep 5 smallmouth 18” and up year round. There are bass tournaments, several a week, year round. People can eat them off the beds, weigh them in, mount them, use them for live bait, anything that’s not classified as wanton waste. And we still have an extremely healthy population of smallmouth of all age classes. Not saying that can or will work anywhere or everywhere, but wildlife survival is ALL about habitat. And habitat is almost all about food
J Francho reply :
On 2/2/2018 at 6:05 AM, MickD said:I'll defer to the experts who were commenting on allowing TOURNAMENTS, not individual anglers. Tournaments have large numbers of expert anglers who are allowed to keep 5 fish, which with culling could involve displacing a great number of fish.
Uh, there’s a ton of tournaments during this timeframe. I mean a ton. The launch is so big, they do a valet launch because it’s like a stadium sized parking lot. It’s a two fish limit. And they have to be over 18 or something like that. Can’t remember the exact details.
slonezp reply :
On 2/2/2018 at 6:05 AM, MickD said:I'll defer to the experts who were commenting on allowing TOURNAMENTS, not individual anglers. Tournaments have large numbers of expert anglers who are allowed to keep 5 fish, which with culling could involve displacing a great number of fish.
Displacing fish? Come on man. Fish aren't people. They don't need comfort crawdads to get them thru tough times. If anything, pulling fish off a bed where nuptials have already taken place will allow the eggs to be open season for nest raiders. Not to mention, not all bass spawn in clear shallow water. Many are smart enough to spawn in deeper less clear areas especially smallmouth.
Spankey reply :
I know that I can be anal about certain things. My wife claims that is why people are reluctant to fish with me.
I don't want to kill a Smallie. I don't want to see a Smallie killed. I don't like to see them mishandled. I treat them very gingerly and pride myself in doing so. I realize things happen. One may fall to the deck carpet etc. bad hook set (cut the hook). C&R on all my bass and empathize that to others that are with me. Photo than C&R. I'm up for that.
MickD reply :
On 2/2/2018 at 8:13 PM, slonezp said:pulling fish off a bed where nuptials have already taken place will allow the eggs to be open season for nest raiders.
That is exactly what I meant about displacing. "Sarcasm alert" regarding "comfort crawdads." Also, I may be crazy but I'm not stupid.
walleye13 reply :
Good topic AJ, I'm with you 100%. We deal with a similar issue at Lake of the Ozarks with Largemouth where they have tournaments year around irregardless of the spawn. The icing on the cake was last April when they had the 2 day Big Bass Bash. While this is an amateur event only (no pros allowed), the payout is for the 30 BIGGEST bass every 2 hours for 2 days. I realize they cannot predict the weather when they schedule such events, but last year the fish were solidly on beds during that time frame. Can you imagine how many big females were taken off beds and relocated by 2400 boats with 2 anglers each? The relocation alone is a touchy subject for me anyway given the high number of tourneys on this body of water. I'm on the lower end of the lake, which gets 90% of the fishing pressure in the winter....and as long as the main channel isn't iced over they are having a tournament!! These aren't little 15 boat club tournaments either. Usually at least 50 boats who haul their 5 fish limits 15-20 miles back to the weigh in.
Sorry for the rant...
J Francho reply :
Females may stick around the nest, but not for too long. Males are the ones that guard the nest until the fry are free swimming.
slonezp reply :
On 2/6/2018 at 3:54 AM, J Francho said:Females may stick around the nest, but not for too long. Males are the ones that guard the nest until the fry are free swimming.
If I recall from @Paul Roberts video, it's only a day or so.
Captain America reply :
Shouldn't we do what is best for the bass population? Just because tournament pressure on smallmouth beds "hasnt devastated" the population, doesn't mean its good. I'm glad the MDNR is more concerned with the fish than they are with with bass fisherman. That is how we are going to preserve our resources for future generations.
slonezp reply :
If you regulate the hell out of the industry, people will look elsewhere to fish or might take up poaching for a hobby
Scarborough817 reply :
so what you're telling me is that if im throwing a smallmouth swimbait it should be 5" or 9"
Captain America reply :
On 2/6/2018 at 11:58 PM, slonezp said:If you regulate the hell out of the industry, people will look elsewhere to fish or might take up poaching for a hobby
Not the case in Canada. Heavily regulated? Check. Destination Fisheries? Check. The penalties for poaching are too high for most people to risk it. Obviously, a few knuckeheads will still poach, but less. And whats a few idiots doing something illegal compared to everyone doing the same exact thing if it were legal? That's the purpose of a law.
Scarborough817 reply :
On 2/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, Captain America said:Not the case in Canada. Heavily regulated? Check. Destination Fisheries? Check. The penalties for poaching are too high for most people to risk it. Obviously, a few knuckeheads will still poach, but less. And whats a few idiots doing something illegal compared to everyone doing the same exact thing if it were legal? That's the purpose of a law.
Do not go by Canada's fishing laws, specifically in Ontario they are ridiculous and extremely outdated. We have a bass season that ranges from the beginning of july to the end of november, that leaves basically 3 months where the water is thawed that we are unable to fish. Their reasoning behind this is because of the spawn. To me that just shows a lack of knowledge about what actually happens under the water. catching a fish off of a bed and releasing it doesnt mean all of the eggs are eaten. This week there is news that they are also trying to regulate it even more, including saying that the ministry can just tell everyone they cant fish somewhere for an extended period of time. Not to mention that there are basically no offices to enforce anything in Ontario. there are 3622 employees in Ontario, While the whole MnR has a budget of 731 million dollars.
Personally i would much rather have the regulations of MI, NY, IL all of which are parallel if not further north than parts of Ontario
Captain America reply :
On 2/7/2018 at 5:14 AM, Scarborough817 said:Do not go by Canada's fishing laws, specifically in Ontario they are ridiculous and extremely outdated. We have a bass season that ranges from the beginning of july to the end of november, that leaves basically 3 months where the water is thawed that they are saying is for the spawn. To me that just shows a lack of knowledge about what actually happens under the water.This week there is news that they are also trying to regulate it even more, including saying that the ministry can just tell everyone they cant fish somewhere for an extended period of time. Not to mention that there are basically no offices to enforce anything in Ontario. there are 3622 employees in Ontario, While the whole MnR has a budget of 731 million dollars.
Personally i would much rather have the regulations of MI, NY, IL all of which are parallel if not further north than parts of Ontario
Haha that sounds bad. Last time I was up there I was told the OPP can come into your cabin to see if you kept too many fish. Most of my experience comes from Manitoba fishing for Cats, and the Ontario part of Lake of the Woods in August. I wasn't saying it was ideal, just that it doesn't necessarily keep people away/encourage them to poach. I AM pretty pleased with the Michigan DNR most of the time. They have a good deal of regulation to do before I would be upset.
Scarborough817 reply :
On 2/7/2018 at 5:21 AM, Captain America said:Haha that sounds bad. Last time I was up there I was told the OPP can come into your cabin to see if you kept too many fish. Most of my experience comes from Manitoba fishing for Cats, and the Ontario part of Lake of the Woods in August. I wasn't saying it was ideal, just that it doesn't necessarily keep people away/encourage them to poach. I AM pretty pleased with the Michigan DNR most of the time.
i think it encourages it more so, the regulations are basically there because the province doesn't want to have to pay for officers to patrol. They think if they have a ton of rules people will just follow them plus that way they can have a higher pay for anyone who is working. Obviously i can tell you it is completely backwards and doesn't actually work. there is a lake by my house where every single day regardless of season there are people who throw everything they catch into a bucket. I will guarantee it is not the only on either, Lake Ontario has a salmon run that happens around the middle to end of October which is a closed season and illegal to fish, yet it still gets fished because no one gets ticketed.
Captain America reply :
On 2/7/2018 at 5:47 AM, Scarborough817 said:i think it encourages it more so, the regulations are basically there because the province doesn't want to have to pay for officers to patrol. They think if they have a ton of rules people will just follow them plus that way they can have a higher pay for anyone who is working. Obviously i can tell you it is completely backwards and doesn't actually work. there is a lake by my house where every single day regardless of season there are people who throw everything they catch into a bucket. I will guarantee it is not the only on either, Lake Ontario has a salmon run that happens around the middle to end of October which is a closed season and illegal to fish, yet it still gets fished because no one gets ticketed.
Interesting. Scratch that about Canada, or Ontario at least. Point is, I believe we should protect Michigan's spawning bass from tournaments... lol
slonezp reply :
On 2/3/2018 at 2:40 AM, MickD said:That is exactly what I meant about displacing. "Sarcasm alert" regarding "comfort crawdads." Also, I may be crazy but I'm not stupid.
Nobody is accusing you of being either. If anybody should be regulating a spawn tournament, it should be the club(s) themselves. Anglers will then be able to choose whether or not they want to participate. I do not agree with mandating more laws based on the opinions of a few squeaky wheels.
12poundbass reply :
On 2/7/2018 at 5:55 AM, Captain America said:Interesting. Scratch that about Canada, or Ontario at least. Point is, I believe we should protect Michigan's spawning bass from tournaments... lol
The law just changed here in Michigan a couple years ago.
It used to be catch and release was the third Saturday in April and catch in keep third Saturday in May. Now it's catch and release all year long and catch and keep is still the same. I'm no smallmouth expert but I think they're done with the spawn before the end of May (I think). Large mouth it's close to that time.
Either way as far as Michigan goes there's no shortage of good bass fishing and the laws really haven't changed for the most part.
MickD reply :
Bass in MI on Lake St Clair, Huron, MI, Saginaw Bay, and many northern lakes are not done spawning by June 1. The law for the part of the year that is not in the normal bass season is catch and immediate release. Leaving the rules on tourneys to the tourney organizers/clubs is, IMHO, an invitation to disaster. As the scientists, not the "squeaky wheels," stated. We had scientists from Ohio, MI, and Ontario testify, and they were all in agreement. The question on MI came from a proposal by a "club."
J Francho reply :
According to scientists in NY, when they were deciding to open catch and immediate release fishing during the off season (December through the 3rd Saturday in June) said that 70-75% of the bass population do not attempt to spawn. Stands to argue if you're only targeting beds, then you are carving out three quarters of your target.
TnRiver46 reply :
In East TN the food is so abundant the population can easily withstand anything that has to do with a rod and reel. They say in most cases, a certain percentage of fish populations (usually well over half) die every year. Drought and flood are the main enemies of the fish and thousands of them die every year regardless of how many get hooked with a rod and reel. You could legally catch an 18" smallmouth off a bed in the spring and use it for live bait. No one actually does that but you could do it legally and our population of smallmouth is extremely healthy. Once again, wildlife survival is all about food. I personally never bass fish beds on purpose because I don't fish tournaments and hungry fish are way more fun than breeding fish
Oregon Native reply :
It still saddens me that out in Oregon on the Columbia...unless they've changed it again you can catch and eat or throw on bank if you want for smalies. When I worked at a couple fishing stores the salmon/trout fishermen (not all) thought bass were trash and were to be disposed of accordingly!! So nice to live out here where life is a 180.
MickD reply :
On 2/8/2018 at 6:43 PM, Oregon Native said:It still saddens me that out in Oregon on the Columbia...unless they've changed it again you can catch and eat or throw on bank if you want for smalies. When I worked at a couple fishing stores the salmon/trout fishermen (not all) thought bass were trash and were to be disposed of accordingly!! So nice to live out here where life is a 180.
Probably because the bass prey on salmon eggs or fry? And they are prioritizing their salmon/trout fishery first? Or at least that is the perception? On Lake St Clair their are fishermen who kill muskies and throw them back no matter what size they are because the fishermen blame muskies for hurting the perch population.
TnRiver46 reply :
On 2/8/2018 at 9:51 PM, MickD said:Probably because the bass prey on salmon eggs or fry? And they are prioritizing their salmon/trout fishery first? Or at least that is the perception? On Lake St Clair their are fishermen who kill muskies and throw them back no matter what size they are because the fishermen blame muskies for hurting the perch population.
People do that here with gar. They don't quite realize that all the native fish in the water have coexisted for a few thousand years
Paul Roberts reply :
On 1/31/2018 at 10:14 AM, A-Jay said:
A-Jay
Does give one pause.
Those numbers are pretty much the same for the LM's where I fish.
On 1/31/2018 at 9:49 PM, Glenn said:The growth rates listed are misleading, but I think it's designed to spark conversation. To that end, mission accomplished.
Those values are higher than only 10% of the fish across their range (i.e., slow growth). The average growth rates for smallmouth bass are much faster: https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/fish-biology.html
Actually, the table shows that A-Jay's numbers are just about spot on -for the national average. The article says:
The "average" is for all populations sampled across the species' entire geographic range. We also provided the 10th and 90th percentiles. The 10th percentiles mean that those values were higher than only 10% of the fish across their range (i.e., slow growth). The 90th percentile means that those values were higher than 90% of the sampled fish for that species across its entire range (fast growth).
The "percentiles" in the table show growth rates for more rare circumstances: The 10th percentile is lowest 10% in growth rate. And the 90th, the upper 10% in growth rate. The percentiles are arbitrary cutoffs. Few of us fish those 10%, or 90% waters. Where do each of our waters fall? We'd need the data to really know. Some of my waters obviously have better growth rates than others. And I follow the waters that hold promise.
For me, in my waters (decidedly "average"), it hurts to see 10+ yr old bass hauled out to the parking lot and dropped in the trunk of a car. I will usually let them know how old that fish likely is. If I get any flack, I say, "Do the math. Keep the smaller ones, please!" I feel justified because they are public waters, which means they're shared. It's a matter of respect -for the whole food chain.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 6:39 AM, MickD said:A-Jay, are you aware we have an idiot here in MI who has in the past advocated, and probably will again, for tournaments on the spawning beds? Catch and immediate release is not as benign as most think, as a significant number of fish die, but to do a tournament that removes fish from the beds is suicide for the beds' young bass. If you are not aware, and would like more info, PM me. My son testified before the DNR when the last proposal was made, and he and others prevailed in getting the proposal denied. But it will come up again.
On 2/1/2018 at 9:31 PM, MickD said:... My opinion is that the proposal was so ridiculous that it could have been denied based on common sense.
Not at all interested in getting into the heat, but, just to clarify something:
Studies from N and S show opposite results. Bed disturbances are much more detrimental in the N than in the S. It has to do with harshness of winters, duration of spawn season, ability to recuperate after, and overall biological productivity of waters. N and S are very different places. This is why regs are more restricted in the N. Thus, it's not necessarily "common sense".
I'm hearing you A-Jay. Ice-out is imminent. Did you know that the first day of spring (at least at my latitude) is Feb 10th?! It's the beginning of the end for winter. :))
Paul Roberts reply :
On 2/2/2018 at 8:13 PM, slonezp said:Displacing fish? Come on man. Fish aren't people. They don't need comfort crawdads to get them thru tough times. If anything, pulling fish off a bed where nuptials have already taken place will allow the eggs to be open season for nest raiders. Not to mention, not all bass spawn in clear shallow water. Many are smart enough to spawn in deeper less clear areas especially smallmouth.
Some fish are impacted more greatly than others when displaced. It's a complex world down there, and bass are remarkably adaptable. But they are more so as a population than as individuals. Given a diverse lake, a given year class gets divvied up across the lake, with different groups of bass figuring out different ways to make a living. Some areas/food sources are better than others. Many (the tournament winners ) end up at those peak sources. Others... find other ways to make a living that... get those fish by; What's known as "false peaks".
Many studies have found some behavioral "clustering" (statistically speaking) around home range size, suggesting that some fish are home-bodies and others are wanderers. Not always, but wandering is often more costly and an indication that the fish are not getting the best deal. One thing that's been found is that T-released fish have a higher likelihood of becoming wanderers. In a really productive lake, there might just be room and board for displaced fish. In others, maybe not. I would suspect that N fish are more apt to fall into the latter category.
On 2/6/2018 at 3:54 AM, J Francho said:Females may stick around the nest, but not for too long. Males are the ones that guard the nest until the fry are free swimming.
A-yup. Although in SM (and apparently, FL LM), females can take a more aggressive role around the bed, at least as long as they are there.
On 2/6/2018 at 1:07 PM, slonezp said:If I recall from @Paul Roberts video, it's only a day or so.
That's as I understand it and, so far, have seen. I think this is bc they tend to move to spawn under promotive conditions, and can get the job done pretty quickly. There is evidence that bass may pair -or at least closely associate with their spawning partner- way early, during winter even. But the movement to actually spawn tends to follow specific conditions. At least this is what I see in my northern small ponds.
I've seen females hanging around longer, but this has been when all the males are already occupied with eggs, or in ponds with few eligible males. One year, in a very small 3acre pond, I saw only 3 males attempt to make beds. At one point, the largest male, with apparently the most attractive site, had a line up of females, including the 3 largest in the pond, lined up outside his bed. The females actually began to fight with each other for access. The largest female took the spot, and the others just had to hang back and... be ornery.
walleye13 reply :
Good insight Paul. Interesting perspective on the displaced fish issue. Thanks for sharing that.
MickD reply :
On 2/9/2018 at 12:58 AM, Paul Roberts said:Thus, it's not necessarily "common sense".
lt's still common sense. It's common sense + science. Science and common sense agree.
Oregon Native reply :
On 2/8/2018 at 9:51 PM, MickD said:Probably because the bass prey on salmon eggs or fry? And they are prioritizing their salmon/trout fishery first? Or at least that is the perception? On Lake St Clair their are fishermen who kill muskies and throw them back no matter what size they are because the fishermen blame muskies for hurting the perch population.
Forestry practices and birds along with the loving seals do far far more damage.....bass is an easy scapegoat for their way of thinking. It's a unique part of the good ol US.
Spankey reply :
Mining, mineral exploration, gas and oil fracking play a lot worse of an enemy. The recklessness in Washington of deregulation is a huge threat. If someone want to keep a fish or to to eat. Enjoy. Tournament fishing can be worked out or time slotted. These issues are small time.
I'm not making this a political rant. It is a real world problem of altering fish habitat that I feel plays a bigger factor.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 2/9/2018 at 12:13 PM, MickD said:lt's still common sense. It's common sense + science. Science and common sense agree.
I hear you. Expecting people to understand science can be like... banging one's head against a wall. I like Carl Sagan's quote: "Opinion is easy; Knowledge takes work." And, sadly, not everyone has access, and therefore, interest enough -or the time for that matter- to do the work.
The difficulty with this particular issue is that the science says different things depending on where you live. And people tend to form opinions around what they most want to believe. Glad to hear that the managers there have done the work, and are holding the line.
TOXIC reply :
another thing to remember, is that science is never an absolute. The nature of science is to be questioned or we would all be "flat earthers"
TnRiver46 reply :
They could just run the tournaments like kayak fishing and let the fish go after a measurement
Justin62882 reply :
The finest gift you can give to any fisherman is to put a good fish back, and who knows if the fish that you caught isn't someone else's gift to you?
MickD reply :
There is at least one fisherman on Sag Bay who snips the top of the tail a little to mark his releases. I wish he didn't do that, but doesn't seem to harm the fish. One of our biggest of a couple years ago was marked that way.
J Francho reply :
On 2/12/2018 at 8:27 PM, MickD said:There is at least one fisherman on Sag Bay who snips the top of the tail a little to mark his releases.
For what purpose? That fin will heal in a week or two.
Paul Roberts reply :
On 2/12/2018 at 7:19 PM, Justin62882 said:The finest gift you can give to any fisherman is to put a good fish back, and who knows if the fish that you caught isn't someone else's gift to you?
And sometimes we do. Once upon a time, I caught a large bass off a small rubble hump in August on a crankbait. She was missing her left eye, and was on the thin side. "Old fish", I thought. My fishing buddy caught her again a year later, in August, off the same hump, on a crankbait. He said she was in great condition and may have been as much as a pound heavier.
Justin62882 reply :
On 2/13/2018 at 8:25 AM, Paul Roberts said:And sometimes we do. Once upon a time, I caught a large bass off a small rubble hump in August on a crankbait. She was missing her left eye, and was on the thin side. "Old fish", I thought. My fishing buddy caught her again a year later, in August, off the same hump, on a crankbait. He said she was in great condition and may have been as much as a pound heavier.
That is awesome! Me and a couple people fished this pond about 15 years ago. A buddy caught this one eyed bass. He was released and we decided to nickname him "one eyed willy". And we actually all ended up catching him one time a piece over the next 2 years. Another thing that's cool is Stephen Douglas had a catfishing channel on YouTube he was out fishing in a video and catches this nice flathead that has a specific weird feature I can't remember.someone posted in his comments of the same location of the river with the same fish that was caught after that video was out. I thought that was pretty cool.
Paul Roberts reply :
That's a fun story. Yes, there are lots of stories like that going around. My waters are public and hard fished, so I know -we should all know- that those fish are recycled. This isn't to say that bass, esp, shouldn't be harvested. But I feel the big ones -the older ones- should be put back. And I sure have appreciated it, sometimes more than once. 
MickD reply :
On 2/12/2018 at 9:29 PM, J Francho said:For what purpose?
As stated, to mark fish he has caught before. It's just the curiosity thing in wondering if one has caught the same fish more than once. I caught the same smallie twice in the same day, could tell from a bad eye. Probably have caught the same fish many times before, but don't know it.
J Francho reply :
I know I've caught the same fish several times. A pretty big one at that. It's been 6-2, 5-11, and 6-3 on the three times I weighed her.
Clipping the fin is really dumb. It grows back rather quickly, and all he's doing is introducing the risk of a fin rot infection. I don't want to perpetuate this practice at all.
BassNJake reply :
On 2/1/2018 at 9:31 PM, MickD said:The SCIENTISTS from I believe three states who testified in the MI DNR hearings regarding THE PROPOSAL TO ALLOW TOURNAMENTS WHICH WOULD TAKE SMALLMOUTH BASS OFF THE BEDS TO BE WEIGHED AT A LATER TIME were unanimous in the position that this would be disastrous to the population, providing scientific studies to support their arguments. With respect for your opinion, the other factors you mention have not caused the "disastrous" decline in the smallmouth population that the scientists were predicting if tournaments were allowed while the bass were on the beds and the taking of bass to remote weighing was done. My opinion is that the proposal was so ridiculous that it could have been denied based on common sense.
When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.
However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.
Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.
Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.
It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.
https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of
*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***
MickD reply :
On 2/14/2018 at 3:15 AM, BassNJake said:When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.
However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.
Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.
Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.
It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.
https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of
*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***
I really don't see how a largemouth study of an eighteen acre lake has any relevance to Great Lakes Smallmouth fishing rules or practices. Or smallmouth bass in any environment. You just cannot extrapolate this study to any smallmouth waters of any size or location. It is a very specific study of largemouth ponds.
Paul Roberts reply :
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Paul Roberts reply :
On 2/14/2018 at 3:15 AM, BassNJake said:When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.
However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.
Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.
Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.
It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.
https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of
*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***
This was/is (still) an important read. However, I started to comment, but on the recruitment of large bass, which I think is what A-Jay was focused on, rather than on the effects of bed fishing.
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