Going against the grain?? 2024
Bass_Fanatic reply :
I realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?
Lund Explorer reply :
QuoteI realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?
Speaking of over statement, if that were the case, Mr. Yamamoto would be selling three packs of senkos for $79.95.
Seriously, there is no magic lure that will catch fish on every lake under all the variable conditions that fishermen faces throughout the year. In many tournaments, there are guys qualifying for the final day cut that fish something completely different than the pack.
I learned long ago that I don't concern myself with what others are throwing. I simply try to look for where the fish are located, and then go through the baits that I have confidence in. Location is about 90% of the game, what bait you throw takes up a small part of what's left.
Big Fish Rice reply :
Even pro's pay attention to what their competitors are throwing - we all communicate about what has worked or has not worked at some point in time.
I may be throwing the same type of lure, but I always try to throw a different, off the wall color. It has worked well for me even in clear water conditions.
Shad_Master reply :
A guy I used to fish with had a saying; "Don't throw what they bit on yesterday - throw what they're biting on today".
I think any time you are fishing, you have to throw a variety of lures, techniques, etc. to see what they will respond to. I have fished from the back of the boat where my boater was catching fish on every other case with a spinner bait and I couldn't get any reaction at all with the same bait. On the other hand, after being skunked for half a day by my partner throwing a jig, I have switched to a jig and scooped up all the fish while my partner was grabbing for the net.
It is one of those crazy things about fishing that keeps us all trying to figure 'em out.
KYntucky Warmouth reply :
QuoteEven pro's pay attention to what their competitors are throwing - we all communicate about what has worked or has not worked at some point in time.I may be throwing the same type of lure, but I always try to throw a different, off the wall color. It has worked well for me even in clear water conditions.
How do you think Skeet won Gunterville....his spots died...Davy was catching them on a mop jig....2+2=$100,000 ;D . But sometimes it helps to go against the grain, i.e. Skeet again at SML with a swimbait. I guess you have to know when to hold and when to fold em.
I uswually try to fish a bit different when fish with buddis in the same boat but you can bet that someone else starts catching them and I'm not, I'm gonna make a little switch.
Fish Chris reply :
Hmmmm........
Bass_Finatic
QuoteI mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko?
Well, probably, but a million people and their grandmothers have been throwing Senkos for a long time, and 10 lb'ers have been relatively rare. Certainly not even in the same ball park as the % of 10 lb'ers caught on big swimbaits or wake baits.
Now, I know their were a good handful of guys throwing Huds before I did. And then after I started throwing them, it seemed like everybody in Cali was throwing them ! {not saying that had anything to do with me... but for whatever reason}. That used to bother the heck out of me. That was the only thing about throwing a Hud that I did not like.
But as it turns out, a lot of those guys didn't do so great with them, and therefor, didn't keep throwing them.... Which is exactly what you need to do with big baits if you want to be successful with them.
As for Senko's, I guess a person could say I was a fool not to throw one, but in the times and places a Senko might be the best artificial lure choice, I feel I could catch that same fish on a live lined crawler...... and I think other guys are foolish not to consider this. So we are even I guess 
Peace,
Fish
J Francho reply :
I'd rather see a kid with a Snoopy pole, and a chucnk of hot dog catch a DD than a some fool with a Senko.
paul. reply :
for me, going against the grain does not necessarily have anything to do with bait choice. i just try to fish what i think is the best tool for producing a fish given the set of conditions and location i'm working with. i couldn't care less whether everyone else is throwing it or whether no one else is. you can overthink bait choice pretty easily.
for me, most of the time going against the grain means fishing the most WHERE others fish the least and sometimes WHEN others fish the least. i think "where" and "when" are much more important variables in the bassin' equation than "what". but that's just my opinion.
CJ reply :
Quotefor me, going against the grain does not necessarily have anything to do with bait choice. i just try to fish what i think is the best tool for producing a fish given the set of conditions and location i'm working with.
The answer is right here. I have seen many people get on a bite with a certain lure and not ever understand "why" this lure is just whackin' em. I'm not saying Paul is one of those people. Obviously he understands.
If every body was killing them on a senko, would I throw a senko? Well I wouldn't want to end up just watching everybody have fun. I'd wanna join in!
On my home lake there is a time during the year when deep cranks are the ticket. It's the conditions that make that lure so deadly during this time. I occasionally will change up and use a heavy jig or t-rig a big worm. One example is when my partner and I pulled up on a ledge while a large school was at the supper table(on the shallow part of a ledge and feeding). We set there and caught 3 lbers on deep cranks till we where tired of catching them. I grabbed my jig rod and made two cast that rendered two 5 lb+ fish. Yet more often that same lure switch under the same conditions, has yielded smaller fish.
If I were gonna go against the grain, I would make sure I stayed at the same depth and in the same water column. So if everybody is catching them like crazy fishing deep with plastics real slow on the bottom, I'm probably not going to "go against the grain" and pick up a topwater and go shallow.
Catt reply :
World renowned guide Roger Conner told me the story of him guiding Al and Ron Linder for 4 days on Lake of the Gum Coves & Black Lake Marsh.
Day 1: Al and Ron Linder tried lures and techniques they were accustom to using with limited success.
Day 2: Al and Ron Linder set about duplicating every thing Roger did
Day 3: Al and Ron Linder started refining Roger's techniques
Day 4: Al and Ron Linder were catching more and bigger bass than their guide
BassThumb reply :
QuoteWorld renowned guide Roger Conner told me the story of him guiding Al and Ron Linder for 4 days on Lake of the Gum Coves & Black Lake Marsh.Day 1: Al and Ron Linder tried lures and techniques they were accustom to using with limited success.
Day 2: Al and Ron Linder set about duplicating every thing Roger did
Day 3: Al and Ron Linder started refining Roger's techniques
Day 4: Al and Ron Linder were catching more and bigger bass than their guide
Haha, that's very interesting!
BassThumb reply :
QuoteI realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?
Fish will become conditioned to certain distinct lures like spinnerbaits if they are often exposed to them.
I have a friend who lives on a private 60 acre lake full of big bass. All he throws is a 1/4-3/8oz white, single gold Colorado spinnerbait. Year after year, he catches fewer fish, but he won't switch it up. He claims it's the lake's fault, something is wrong with the lake, it must be the carp, blah blah blah. Stubborn people... :
0119 reply :
If you watch the big fish pics published in Bassmaster magazine every month, there are quite a few 10+ bass caught on senkos. Zoom trick worms too. Its amazing how on this board it is now vogue to blast the senko when just a couple of years ago everyone said it was gold. I wonder when Shimano will loose its gold status?
OHIO reply :
QuoteIf you watch the big fish pics published in Bassmaster magazine every month, there are quite a few 10+ bass caught on senkos. Zoom trick worms too. Its amazing how on this board it is now vogue to blast the senko when just a couple of years ago everyone said it was gold. I wonder when Shimano will loose its gold status?
Hopefully soon. ;D
Lund Explorer reply :
QuoteMaybe this is off topic but....I feel that the more acomplished fisherman on here look down upon the Senko type bait as if it is almost like cheating. Just too easy. Anyone can catch fish on it.
To a good extent this is true. If I have a newbie person on my boat, I hand them a spinning rod with a wacky Senko.
They do catch fish. Anyone not using one because they think its too easy is missing out. If they allowed aluminum bats in the major leagues, I bet some guys would still stay with wood.
That being said, as a non tournament fisherman, I know I can catch fish on a Senko. Been there, done that. I want to improve on other aspects of the game and challenge myself. But if the day is real tough, I will switch back to ol relieable.
......Bill
I guess I should wait for some of the more accomplished fishermen on here to reply, but if you humor me a little I'd like to throw in my two-cents worth.
To begin with, I don't think anyone here thinks that the guy who has bought into the theory that the senko is the perfect bait is cheating. Unless the infatuation with that lure gets to the point that the fisherman in question believes the lure will catch fish in all situations. That maybe when the senko fisherman is cheating, but only themselves!
To be blatantly fair to these more accomplished anglers, you can take the above paragraph and replace "senko" with the name of any lure you would like to. I'm sure they will all tell you that the end result will still be an angler who is cheating themselves.
If you read through all of the pages you will find a few recurring tidbits of knowledge that these people will continue to explain to others. One of those is that every fishing lure that has ever been invented is nothing more than a tool that could be added to a well stocked toolbox. Every type of lure, from topwater to bottom bouncer has a time and place where the conditions tell them that a certain lure is what they should throw to produce the best results. But the one thing that you will never hear from any of these more accomplished anglers is that you should always stick to one specific lure.
Now I've only been trying to seriously fish for bass for around 30 years, and while almost twenty of those were spent fishing local weekend tournament circuits, I don't know nearly as much as some of these other guys on here. Of course, all of this is just my opinion, and I'm sure they could chime in here with a better explanation than I could. But I know I can put a newbie in my boat and depending on the conditions, hand him or her any of a dozen different baits, and they will catch fish.
CJ reply :
I don't here of a whole lot of major tournament events being won on senko's. Maybe the pros think that they are cheating too? :
Fat-G reply :
QuoteQuoteI realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?Speaking of over statement, if that were the case, Mr. Yamamoto would be selling three packs of senkos for $79.95.
Seriously, there is no magic lure that will catch fish on every lake under all the variable conditions that fishermen faces throughout the year. In many tournaments, there are guys qualifying for the final day cut that fish something completely different than the pack.
I learned long ago that I don't concern myself with what others are throwing. I simply try to look for where the fish are located, and then go through the baits that I have confidence in. Location is about 90% of the game, what bait you throw takes up a small part of what's left.
I politely disagree, I believe most baits would catch a fish on any given lake in the country, given the proper presentation and time of day. Minus of course the huge trout swimbaits and things of that nature. I'm not saying you could literally ALWAYS catch fish on ONE lure anywhere in the country, but I do believe that every bait has it's time and place, and can catch many different types of fish on many different bodies of water.
Glenn reply :
What, moderators aren't allowed to have opinions and personalities now?
Wow! Back at ya. 
K_Mac reply :
QuoteI'd rather see a kid with a Snoopy pole, and a chucnk of hot dog catch a DD than a some fool with a Senko.
I would rather see a kid with a snoopy pole catch a DD than catch one myself. It would make a much better story. I will continue to fish and enjoy it whether I ever catch a DD or not.
I am not sure what you mean by "some fool with a Senko." As long as it is not using the Senko that makes him a fool, we are in complete agreement. If you mean that he is a fool because he is fishing with a Senko, well, that's just foolish. :-?
paul. reply :
senkos have caught a lot of fish and a lot of big fish - particularly when you take into account what's considered big for northern waters. and i think plenty of 10+ bass have been caught on them too.
what cj said made a lot of sense. the only time i would want to go against the grain is when whatever is "supposed to work" doesn't. if what is "supposed to work" IS working, then you better believe i'm gonna use it.
as far as refusing to use a perfectly legal bait (like a senko or a live bait of some kind) because it catches fish too easily goes, that kind of "logic" makes my head hurt. :-? i'll take easy fishing over hard fishing any day of the week. but that's just me.
Bass_Fanatic reply :
I like to fish things a little different sometimes, but I think it is foolish to not throw a certain lure because too many people are fishing it. Most of you guys that call senkos "cheating" baits should think twice about that. I bet money that you have a jig in your box, or a crankbait, spinnerbait, big worm, frog, ect. All of these baits are "common" and everyone fishes em'. So if your goal is to fish something that no one fishes, you better start throwing that helicopter lure or banjo minnow ;D...And if you think senkos wont catch big fish, read the lunker club page in BassMaster magizine. Alot of those fish are caught on senkos.
Now, that wasn't even the point of my thread. My thoughts were that some people thought that it was better to ALWAYS throw something different. If there is a tournament on Toledo Bend this weekend and the top five anglers catch their fish on Jigs, you would be blatenly ignorant to not at least try a jig. Now if the jig doesn't produce for you, then I beleive you can "change things up", but why not fish what has been proven in the past?
Lund Explorer reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteI realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?Speaking of over statement, if that were the case, Mr. Yamamoto would be selling three packs of senkos for $79.95.
Seriously, there is no magic lure that will catch fish on every lake under all the variable conditions that fishermen faces throughout the year. In many tournaments, there are guys qualifying for the final day cut that fish something completely different than the pack.
I learned long ago that I don't concern myself with what others are throwing. I simply try to look for where the fish are located, and then go through the baits that I have confidence in. Location is about 90% of the game, what bait you throw takes up a small part of what's left.
I politely disagree, I believe most baits would catch a fish on any given lake in the country, given the proper presentation and time of day. Minus of course the huge trout swimbaits and things of that nature. I'm not saying you could literally ALWAYS catch fish on ONE lure anywhere in the country, but I do believe that every bait has it's time and place, and can catch many different types of fish on many different bodies of water.
Sorry if my post confused you, but that's what I was trying to say.
Any lure will work if it is used under the proper conditions. The problem is, conditions always change. Therefore, it only makes sense to change lures to match the conditions.
Did that make sense?
roadwarrior reply :
Quotesenkos have caught a lot of fish and a lot of big fish - particularly when you take into account what's considered big for northern waters. and i think plenty of 10+ bass have been caught on them too.what cj said made a lot of sense. the only time i would want to go against the grain is when whatever is "supposed to work" doesn't. if what is "supposed to work" IS working, then you better believe i'm gonna use it.
as far as refusing to use a perfectly legal bait (like a senko or a live bait of some kind) because it catches fish too easily goes, that kind of "logic" makes my head hurt. :-? i'll take easy fishing over hard fishing any day of the week. but that's just me.
I like "fishing", but "catching" is lots more fun!
8-)
senile1 reply :
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI realize that many times fish become immune to certain baits, such as spinnerbaits, or techniques, such as fishing down a bank, but is it always better to go against the crowd. I mean, if the crowd is catch 10lb fish every cast on a senko, wouldn't you throw a senko? I try and do things different to show the bass something different, but also, you can't ignore the common things that works right?Speaking of over statement, if that were the case, Mr. Yamamoto would be selling three packs of senkos for $79.95.
Seriously, there is no magic lure that will catch fish on every lake under all the variable conditions that fishermen faces throughout the year. In many tournaments, there are guys qualifying for the final day cut that fish something completely different than the pack.
I learned long ago that I don't concern myself with what others are throwing. I simply try to look for where the fish are located, and then go through the baits that I have confidence in. Location is about 90% of the game, what bait you throw takes up a small part of what's left.
I politely disagree, I believe most baits would catch a fish on any given lake in the country, given the proper presentation and time of day. Minus of course the huge trout swimbaits and things of that nature. I'm not saying you could literally ALWAYS catch fish on ONE lure anywhere in the country, but I do believe that every bait has it's time and place, and can catch many different types of fish on many different bodies of water.
Sorry if my post confused you, but that's what I was trying to say.
Any lure will work if it is used under the proper conditions. The problem is, conditions always change. Therefore, it only makes sense to change lures to match the conditions.
Did that make sense?
Your original post made perfect sense to me, Lundy. Fat-G said the same thing.
I guess I should participate more in the forum but on questions such as this I know we have members who will answer the question in a more understandable and interesting fashion than I. To me the response is really simple.
Use lures that work under particular environmental conditions whether the crowd uses them or not. On a highly pressured lake it behooves one to own some lures that aren't being used by the crowd but that still match up well with the environmental conditions encountered.
farmpond1 reply :
Bass don't read magazines on what's hot and what's not but they do experience the effects. Eventually, they will get conditioned to avoid baits they've had unpleasant experiences with and see on a regular basis. I can do well on the same bait (pick one) on my favorite pond for about 2 weeks and then I have to change things. Otherwise, my catch begins to go down drastically. But while this conditioning occurs, it isn't necessarily wise to go against the grain simply to be different. If something isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
SENKOSAM reply :
QuoteI know I can catch fish on a Senko. Been there, done that. I want to improve on other aspects of the game and challenge myself. But if the day is real tough, I will switch back to ol relieable.
Bill beat me to it.
I've been in a boat where a buddy was catching fish on one type of bait, but I've caught fish on many lure types and colors and find challenge in trying to find and catch fish on baits new to me. I'm happy even when someone is outfishing me because 1. I know we're on fish and 2. it gives me an opportunity to find out what else bass might bite.
Every square yard of water is different - and like Gump's box o choc-o-lates, you never know what you'll get unless you try. If fishing with me for the first time, my partner may think I suck because he's catching and I'm not, but I'm fishing for a different kind of challenge and enjoyment. I see what he's using and if it's something I've done well on in the past, there's no point - it's like I was using the same thing he just caught fish on.
Tournament fishing is different. Use what is working in the same boat and screw experimentaion if fish are biting a specific lure at a specific depth! Same speed and presentation also makes sense if either gets zoned in.
Anecdote: I once fished a tourney on the Hudson R. and all we had caught in the first five hours were were dinks in the creek. I suggested fishing the main river sand bars using buzzbaits on the falling tide. Not until after my third two lb bass did my partner reluctantly change. He didn't have a clue for the first five hours and was becoming more and more frustrated. He would have been skunked if he hadn't followed my lead.
Stubborn is as stubborn does and the window for catching fish a certain way in a certain location can be quite small. Adaptation is the rule - either you set the example or your partner.
Fishing Rhino reply :
QuoteMaybe this is off topic but....I feel that the more acomplished fisherman on here look down upon the Senko type bait as if it is almost like cheating. Just too easy. Anyone can catch fish on it.
To a good extent this is true. If I have a newbie person on my boat, I hand them a spinning rod with a wacky Senko.
They do catch fish. Anyone not using one because they think its too easy is missing out. If they allowed aluminum bats in the major leagues, I bet some guys would still stay with wood.
That being said, as a non tournament fisherman, I know I can catch fish on a Senko. Been there, done that. I want to improve on other aspects of the game and challenge myself. But if the day is real tough, I will switch back to ol relieable.
......Bill
Color me a cheater. I use what I feel will produce the best. If it's a senko or similar, that's what I'll use.
I find it humorous that some think using a landing net is not sporting, or that using a particular bait is cheating.
Yet, some of these will have every electronic gadget known to man, plus state of the art nav/structure displays to find fish. Several thousand dollars in electronics, a boat that will zoom around the lake at speeds over 60, 70, 80 mph, and they will call a guy fishing from the bank, kayak, canoe, tube or wading a cheater. Unbelievable!
I do not know a single fisherman who told me his goal was to catch fewer, or smaller fish.
georgiaken reply :
I read somewhere that when you first start fishing, you want to catch fish, then you want to catch lots of fish, then you want to catch them the way you want to catch them.
I think that tourney fishing and pleasure fishing are very different circumstances. That said, fish how you like and enjoy your time on the water.
If you're in a tourney, use what works. If you're fishing just for pleasure, do whatever you like. There are days when I fish a lure, just to learn the lure, with catching fish being a by-product. Last year, I used to go down to the river in the dead of winter, just so I could learn how to use lures, so when it warmed up, I'd be fishing and not learning. Yes, I threw topwater and yes, anyone watching me would have thought I was a fool. But, I learned, and when the water warmed up, I caught a lot of fish on topwaters (I had plenty of practice).
When you're out there on the water, your time is your own, so use it however you please.
I used to think that "live bait fishing" wasn't "real" fishing, but you know what I learned?
The point of fishing is to catch fish.
As long as you stay within the law and you aren't distressing other anglers (and other water lovers) around you unnecessarily, have a good time.
I think that some people take this far too seriously. I fish because I love it and it's relaxing...I could care less what others think of my methods or success/failure.
If others have no idea what my objective is, how can they measure my success?
K_Mac reply :
QuoteI read somewhere that when you first start fishing, you want to catch fish, then you want to catch lots of fish, then you want to catch them the way you want to catch them.I think that tourney fishing and pleasure fishing are very different circumstances. That said, fish how you like and enjoy your time on the water.
If you're in a tourney, use what works. If you're fishing just for pleasure, do whatever you like. There are days when I fish a lure, just to learn the lure, with catching fish being a by-product. Last year, I used to go down to the river in the dead of winter, just so I could learn how to use lures, so when it warmed up, I'd be fishing and not learning. Yes, I threw topwater and yes, anyone watching me would have thought I was a fool. But, I learned, and when the water warmed up, I caught a lot of fish on topwaters (I had plenty of practice).
When you're out there on the water, your time is your own, so use it however you please.
I used to think that "live bait fishing" wasn't "real" fishing, but you know what I learned?
The point of fishing is to catch fish.
As long as you stay within the law and you aren't distressing other anglers (and other water lovers) around you unnecessarily, have a good time.
I think that some people take this far too seriously. I fish because I love it and it's relaxing...I could care less what others think of my methods or success/failure.
If others have no idea what my objective is, how can they measure my success?
Excellent post. Very well said.
georgiaken reply :
Thanks...
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